NationStates Jolt Archive

I;ve been doing a bit more RP than usual recently (yeah, I know, not a great start to this topic), and came across the idea of a "hyperspace" drive based on Heim Quantim Theory during one, which was posited a serious possibility for FTL travel.

It has come up in a few places recently, but I haven't seen any mention of it here. Thoughts? Comments? What's the likelyhood of it happening?

Welcome to Mars express: only a three hour trip
IAN JOHNSTON SCIENCE CORRESPONDENT

AN EXTRAORDINARY "hyperspace" engine that could make interstellar space travel a reality by flying into other dimensions is being investigated by the United States government.

The hypothetical device, which has been outlined in principle but is based on a controversial theory about the fabric of the universe, could potentially allow a spacecraft to travel to Mars in three hours and journey to a star 11 light years away in just 80 days, according to a report in today's New Scientist magazine.

The theoretical engine works by creating an intense magnetic field that, according to ideas first developed by the late scientist Burkhard Heim in the 1950s, would produce a gravitational field and result in thrust for a spacecraft.

Also, if a large enough magnetic field was created, the craft would slip into a different dimension, where the speed of light is faster, allowing incredible speeds to be reached. Switching off the magnetic field would result in the engine reappearing in our current dimension.
http://news.scotsman.com/scitech.cfm?id=16902006

EVERY year, the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics awards prizes for the best papers presented at its annual conference. Last year's winner in the nuclear and future flight category went to a paper calling for experimental tests of an astonishing new type of engine. According to the paper, this hyperdrive motor would propel a craft through another dimension at enormous speeds. It could leave Earth at lunchtime and get to the moon in time for dinner. There's just one catch: the idea relies on an obscure and largely unrecognised kind of physics. Can they possibly be serious?

The AIAA is certainly not embarrassed. What's more, the US military has begun to cast its eyes over the hyperdrive concept, and a space propulsion researcher at the US Department of Energy's Sandia National Laboratories has said he would be interested in putting the idea to the test. And despite the bafflement of most physicists at the theory that supposedly underpins it, Pavlos Mikellides, an aerospace engineer at the Arizona State University in Tempe who reviewed the winning paper, stands by the committee's choice. "Even though such features have been explored before, this particular approach is quite unique," he says.
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundamentals/mg18925331.200.html




Here's the academic paper by Walter Dröscher and Jochem Häuser that this is based on: "Guidelines For a Space Propulsion Device Based on Heim's Quantum Theory."
http://www.hpcc-space.de/publications/documents/aiaa2004-3700-letter.pdf
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:225hESNgyPUJ:www.hpcc-space.de/publications/documents/aiaa2004-3700-letter.pdf+http://www.hpcc-space.de/publications/documents/aiaa2004-3700-letter.pdf&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1

The Wikipedia Article on Heim theory:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heim_theory

This will all end badly. Nothing good ever comes rom travel to other dimensions, don't you people watch movies?!

This will all end badly. Nothing good ever comes rom travel to other dimensions, don't you people watch movies?!

That one with Sam Neill...deary me...having one's eye's ripped out. No fun.

It's a load of crock. The theory behind hyperspace has been around for a while. It's a science fiction pursuit, nothing more.

As long as people in the crew aren't from NS General, it should be fine. Otherwise, it will end badly, with raving paranoid freaks ripping each other's entrails out.

Especially if you're the pilot.

This will all end badly. Nothing good ever comes rom travel to other dimensions, don't you people watch movies?!

As long as people in the crew aren't from NS General, it should be fine. Otherwise, it will end badly, with raving paranoid freaks ripping each other's entrails out.

As long as people in the crew aren't from NS General, it should be fine. Otherwise, it will end badly, with raving paranoid freaks ripping each other's entrails out.

That's gonna happen here regardless of scientific developments re: hyperspace.

Either that, or someone ignores Professor Hessline's absurd theory about timelines, and the crew ends up 2000 years in the future, on a planet run by...

Myrth.

That's gonna happen here regardless of scientific developments re: hyperspace.

Either that, or someone ignores Professor Hessline's absurd theory about timelines, and the crew ends up 2000 years in the future, on a planet run by...

Also, if a large enough magnetic field was created, the craft would slip into a different dimension, where the speed of light is faster, allowing incredible speeds to be reached.

But the massive fuel requirements for accelerating to high speeds still exists? Not very useful then.

If my calculations are correct, then even without relativistic mass increase, a kilogram of matter would still need to have 44.9 X 10^15 J of kinetic energy to go at the speed of light.

That one with Sam Neill...deary me...having one's eye's ripped out. No fun.

Event Horizon. god i love that film :)
scary.


but yeah, heard about this before. i remember something about an X-something device they're using to generate the magnetic fields (remembered that cos it sounded so X-men and cool :cool: )

But the massive fuel requirements for accelerating to high speeds still exists? Not very useful then.

If my calculations are correct, then even without relativistic mass increase, a kilogram of matter would still need to have 44.9 X 10^15 J of kinetic energy to go at the speed of light.

You're missing the point.

By going into hyperspace, the "distance" to Mars would be shortened, so you wouldn't have to accelerate to high velocity.

A simple matter of finding the geodesic.

You're missing the point.

By going into hyperspace, the "distance" to Mars would be shortened, so you wouldn't have to accelerate to high velocity.

A simple matter of finding the geodesic.

Well, if that was the point, it should've been in the OP. Are you sure you're not thinking of a different theory of hyperspace?

Regardless, the distance reduction method would be very useful.

Well, if that was the point, it should've been in the OP. Are you sure you're not thinking of a different theory of hyperspace?

Regardless, the distance reduction method would be very useful.

No, that's the entire point of the theory of hyperspace.

You would appear to "jump" from one point to another. Rather like the scenes in Battlestar Galactica on TV nowadays, except that the actual jump would take time, depending on how far you want to go.

So you use magnetism to generate your own personal gravitational field that pulls you through space? Yeah, I'm going to go with bad idea. Or perhaps at least "not in my backard."

Hopefully they'll do the preliminary testing for the idea somewhere past Pluto.

You're missing the point.

By going into hyperspace, the "distance" to Mars would be shortened, so you wouldn't have to accelerate to high velocity.

A simple matter of finding the geodesic.

Indeed. The Dröscher and Häuser paper goes into a lot more detail, but the suggestion is accelerating at 1 G until reaching .00001 c (for short distances) or .01 c (for longer distances), then cranking up the teslas to enter "parallel space" wherein acceleration is magnified by 33000 - "transition into parallel
space would cause a velocity gain by a factor of n = 3.3×10^4".

The problem with massive magnetic fields is that if it's too strong it'll rip us apart. Literally, the diamagnetic effect of water would cause us to be torn apart.

Question is can you make this happen (if it's even possible) before it reaches the head explodey level.

Well, if that was the point, it should've been in the OP. Are you sure you're not thinking of a different theory of hyperspace?

Regardless, the distance reduction method would be very useful.

Looking over EO's post again, it's possible I mistook that he understood.

No, that's the entire point of the theory of hyperspace.

You would appear to "jump" from one point to another. Rather like the scenes in Battlestar Galactica on TV nowadays, except that the actual jump would take time, depending on how far you want to go.

Yep. Looks like I mistook your understanding. It's not the distance that's shortened, but the velocity and the value of c that are accelerated.

I have faith in FTL. I know that everytime a scientist says they might have it figured out that their ideas get shot down quicker than a weather satellite in orbit above China, but... I have the Faith.

Unless this song (http://uqm.stack.nl/files/music/original/activity/hyper.mod) or this alternative (http://www.medievalfuture.com/precursors/music/packages/0/hyper.ogg) is playing I don't care much for hyperspace! ;)

We're going to get FTL, but it's still a while away. Given that the speed of light itself is flexible, there doesn't seem to really be any hard barrier to traveling at those speeds, especially with the kinds of mechanics that previous posters in this thread have discussed.

Now, what would really be useful would be FTL communications because it would enable us to communicate over far longer distances as well as easily communicate with ships traveling slower than light in real time. It would also enable us to scale massive computing projects like Matroishka brains without the kind of lag that light-based communications would suffer.

Massive parallel computing could have huge benefits for calculating and storing real-time navigation data for ships traveling at FTL; it would be a real life version of the star maps, navigators and hyperspace routes featured in science fiction.

So you use magnetism to generate your own personal gravitational field that pulls you through space? Yeah, I'm going to go with bad idea. Or perhaps at least "not in my backard."

Hopefully they'll do the preliminary testing for the idea somewhere past Pluto.


Well, the paper suggests a 20 t field for simple propulsion and a 30 t field for transiting parallel space, and those have been surpassed by several times here on earth without problem. But yes, I would imagine at a minimum that the initial tests for the parallel space transition be carried out at a relatively safe distance.

The problem with massive magnetic fields is that if it's too strong it'll rip us apart. Literally, the diamagnetic effect of water would cause us to be torn apart.

Question is can you make this happen (if it's even possible) before it reaches the head explodey level.

That's a good question. (The first that's actually made me stop and seriously sniff around for some good info. :cool: ) I went looking, but have yet to dig up information: is a 20-30 T field safe for humans?

We're going to get FTL, but it's still a while away. Given that the speed of light itself is flexible, there doesn't seem to really be any hard barrier to traveling at those speeds, especially with the kinds of mechanics that previous posters in this thread have discussed.

Now, what would really be useful would be FTL communications because it would enable us to communicate over far longer distances as well as easily communicate with ships traveling slower than light in real time. It would also enable us to scale massive computing projects like Matroishka brains without the kind of lag that light-based communications would suffer.

Massive parallel computing could have huge benefits for calculating and storing real-time navigation data for ships traveling at FTL; it would be a real life version of the star maps, navigators and hyperspace routes featured in science fiction.

Again, as with the 2057 thread, I remain skeptical. (I know that may confuse some of those posting nay here, as I seem tio be defending the idea of Heim theory. So far most of the posts attacking it don't quite seem to have bothered to have looked at the info I posted, and the "defenses" I've posted so far have been corrections of what appear to the misunderstandings of the source material.)

Bullshit.

1. You need a very, very, very big ship to create that much gravity. With a superconductor. We couldn't even finish building one of those on earth.

2. We don't know the diameter of the primeval universe yet, but it somehow appears in their paper.

3. Creating a little black hole around yourself results in God-knows-what. Imagine getting twisted really, really thinly though. (Tell me if I got this one right).

4. Using magnets and increasing your gravitational field could attract who-knows-what kind of space particles.

5. And that theory also implies that it's possible to travel faster than light. I won't believe it until I see headlines about Einstein being disproved, dawg.

This is bullshit science. I'm much more in favor of the FTL drives that can actually warp space-time to achieve more or less the same effect of shortening the distance, without this idiotic crap about "hyperspace" which doesn't actually exist.

thank you....

The US Government is actually going to create little black holes throughout the near universe based on superstition. Then again is this the first time they've acted on superstition?

Bullshit.

1. You need a very, very, very big ship to create that much gravity. With a superconductor. We couldn't even finish building one of those on earth.

Erm.. the figures are for a 150 ton craft. That's not so big....

2. We don't know the diameter of the primeval universe yet, but it somehow appears in their paper.

I have to admit the paper's a bit above my head in physics. I didn't see that. As far as I can tell, though, it's a number derived from the theory, and not an assumed. (Could well be wrong.)

3. Creating a little black hole around yourself results in God-knows-what. Imagine getting twisted really, really thinly though. (Tell me if I got this one right).

Again, I may be misunderstanding here, but I don't think they're talking about black holes.

4. Using magnets and increasing your gravitational field could attract who-knows-what kind of space particles.

5. And that theory also implies that it's possible to travel faster than light. I won't believe it until I see headlines about Einstein being disproved, dawg.

Yep, theoretical.

This is bullshit science. I'm much more in favor of the FTL drives that can actually warp space-time to achieve more or less the same effect of shortening the distance, without this idiotic crap about "hyperspace" which doesn't actually exist.

So basically it boils down to whether or not you want the future to be like star wars or like star trek?

But the massive fuel requirements for accelerating to high speeds still exists? Not very useful then.

If my calculations are correct, then even without relativistic mass increase, a kilogram of matter would still need to have 44.9 X 10^15 J of kinetic energy to go at the speed of light.

Yeah, I'm not sure how going to a different dimension where "light speed is faster" would do any good because then you would have to go faster to hit light speed.

The US Government is actually going to create little black holes throughout the near universe based on superstition. Then again is this the first time they've acted on superstition?

Well short lived black holes are thought to have been created in the lab. But according to Stephen Hawking a black hole which doesn't have sufficent mass would very quickly 'die'.

Ya know... I've always wondered... why is it these things always find the "right" alternate dimension? Why does everyone assume you can go faster or travel a shorter distance in hyperspace?

I can see it now...

"Yes! We made it to hyperspace!"
"Aw, shit. Mars is twice as far now, and we're going half as fast."

Ya know... I've always wondered... why is it these things always find the "right" alternate dimension? Why does everyone assume you can go faster or travel a shorter distance in hyperspace?
I can see it now...
"Yes! We made it to hyperspace!"
"Aw, shit. Mars is twice as far now, and we're going half as fast."
Plus, without a Gellar field to protect your ship and crew, the demons of the warp will tear your ship apart and consume your souls! Not nice... :p

Plus, without a Gellar field to protect your ship and crew, the demons of the warp will tear your ship apart and consume your souls! Not nice... :p

Well, you can always go in 4-lightyear bursts..........

They just say you need those protections to drive up the prices!

Yeah, I'm not sure how going to a different dimension where "light speed is faster" would do any good because then you would have to go faster to hit light speed.
Simple.:p If you travel the same distance, but in a dimension where the speed of light c is at a higher value than our beloved 3.0 x 10^8m/s, then the difference is you can travel that much faster proportionally (regardless of your actual limit, which depends on the mass of your craft) than if you could in our dimension. When you "jump" back to "normal" space, you've reached your destination and apparently fooled Old Man Einstein without actually fooling anybody; in the grand scheme of a multidimensional universe, or even a full-on multiverse perhaps.:cool:
Oh, and Arov; that need to "disprove Einstein" is only apparent. Special Relativity disallows FTL, not least because v>c in the main equation results in the old "square root of a negative" problem. But General Relativity, while holding the assumptions of the Special Case, nonetheless has equations (including the first bit too) which very clearly specify another "side" of the problem exists; one where you have either a particle(s) going back in time (this is what gets physicists so hot-and-bothered, since that raises the possibility of apparent entropy reversal and all the cans of worms that come from that...), or an antiparticle(s) going forward in time, depending on which interpretation of some darn high-level math you use. So, time travel into a thermodynamic breakdown, or remote self-conversion to antimatter; hmm...:confused:

Well, you can always go in 4-lightyear bursts..........

They just say you need those protections to drive up the prices!
Really? And I always thought that it was a bad idea to have your navigator go insane and be consumed by the warp... Silly me! :p