NationStates Jolt Archive

A while ago I had an interesting discussion on another forum regarding the survival of the Inca Empire into the modern era, through a combination of a New World discovery of gunpowder and some other tweaking.

Im curious though, as to what NSG thinks the world might be like with a major non-Christian, non-white, non-European power, with a strong cultural identity and nationalistic sense, sitting in South America, might be like. Especially one as expansionistic as the Inca were, considering that (at the time of the Spanish arrival) the Inca were still expanding, despite a rather nasty civil war and constant power struggles whenever their leader died.

I know somebody produced an alt-hist timeline with the Inca as a dominant power in the 20th century, but it had some rather odd discrepancies in it, and for some reason the Inca colonized Australia.
Eh :P

Have you posted this before? I'm getting an odd feeling of deju vu, reading this...

Depends on a lot of things. If they were extremely nationalistic and so imbued with their own culture, which the Incas were known to be, they would've been a serious threat to the world powers, or may have even become one.

Perhaps these modern Incas would be a tempering body in these troubled times. But at the same time the Incas were very warrior-like and would have defended their home if ever set upon. Who's to say the Incas wouldn't have been as doomed today as they were back then?

How could the Inca have developed? More to the point - why would they feel the need to? They were nearly completely isolated.

If any nation were to compete with Europe, it would be an East Asian power, most likely China or perhaps Japan. Unfortunately, the leaders of these nations scorned outside influences until recent history.

Have you posted this before? I'm getting an odd feeling of deju vu, reading this...

Its a popular line of discussion. Apparently a number of people think the Inca were pretty cool :P

Depends on a lot of things. If they were extremely nationalistic and so imbued with their own culture, which the Incas were known to be, they would've been a serious threat to the world powers, or may have even become one.

Perhaps these modern Incas would be a tempering body in these troubled times. But at the same time the Incas were very warrior-like and would have defended their home if ever set upon. Who's to say the Incas wouldn't have been as doomed today as they were back then?

The timeline in question did have a few things I thought were possible historically. One was an alliance between the British and Inca against the Spanish, which makes sense, since the English werent too much into Defending the Faith and all that.
The English helped the Inca get up to speed technology wise and kicked the Spanish out of (Spanish) South America by the 17th century. Im not going to what happened in Brazil, some damn stupid idea about a slave revolt and a nation of free former slaves.

It would really depend on how their culture changed over the years though, if they adopted Christianity then I think they would have a much better chance of making it to the 20th century, since the Inca religion pretty much demanded that each new Sapa Inca expand the Empire, and that sort of policy wouldnt sit well with the Powers that Be once the Inca started looking overseas.

Militarily though, they would be quite difficult to take over without the advantages of technology, civil war, extreme luck, and plauge on your side.

Its a popular line of discussion. Apparently a number of people think the Inca were pretty cool :P
I don't know... it's not so much the content as it is the specific wording and phrases and such.

Eh... whatever.

EDIT: What was the other forum you discussed this on? That might be where I saw it at.

Even if it formed into an Empire, it could have gone the route of the Ottoman Empire which some people forget survived until 1922. (me included)

Unfortunately, the Vice President of Merchandising and the Director of Quality Control had been called away at the last minute. They were megacorporate executives, running a massive megacorporation that practically dominated the Aerionian diamond and jewelry market through its various subsidiaries. Not everyone could afford the luxury flagship line that was Landejiu, but they could afford one of Landejiu’s brands.

Ondaure Kasin knew in reality that the Vice President of Merchandising was probably at his 20 million Aerionian Gold Leaf estate that he was able to get from the ridiculous salary and stock options available to megacorporate executives. The Director of Quality Control, on the other hand, was probably truly busy. Both probably did not want to go because they did not like visiting what seemed to them third world countries.

Ondaure did not have time for his family like the Vice President did, he was actually busy traveling around trying to find quality diamonds for Landejiu to sell to its millions of customers through its wholesale and subsidiaries.

One higher executive would, however, travel with Ondaure. That would be Jack Seurv, the Assistant Director of International Quality Control. He was mainly to be sent with Ondaure because of the size of this deal. Ondaure was worried, as Jack Seurv had never been out in the field as Ondaure had so to speak. Out diamond buying in some of these countries. The closest Jack Seurv had probably seen to poverty was the ghettos of Aerionian megacities, with the 50 story concrete apartment blocks with one room apartments, but the Aerionian urban ghettos had running water, electricity, and food. They did not live in huts. There were vacant lots filled with homeless people in Aerion, but these were off dark side streets and not readily seen to someone like Jack Seurv.

Jack Seurv would travel with his personal assistant, and personal butler of all people. Ondaure would be with himself, he for the most part handled his own affairs except for his normal office secretary at his office.

They all found themselves, along with members of Landejieu Corporate Security, on an older corporate midsize Takares business jet. Larger jets, and newer supersonic jets were reserved for things more important, mostly like executive travel.

The midsize business jet was made by Takares Aerospace Corporation, and was approximately 90 ft long. It had the logo of the Landejieu diamond company, a diamond with a crown atop it.

The pilot relayed the appropriate codes, then spoke “This is the Landejieu corporate jet requesting clearance.”

After presumably receiving clearance from Air Traffic Control, the mid-size jet came to a landing on the runway.

I have often wondered about a similar thing, only if Rome had never fell. Lets just leave it at that, I literally mena if Rome NEVER fell. If it managed to keep hold on its lands what would the world be like right now?

And now, this brings up an even more important question...












DOES COFFEE BLLED????

For the incan civilization to have survived, they would have had to have magic immune-systems, since what killed them was European disease, more than anything else.

*throws back a few shots*

the inca.....THE INCAAAAA!!!!!!!!






yeah, the would've conquered the world no problem.:fluffle:

Spanish Influenza or one of the big European pandemics would of wiped em out.

I wonder if the Inca had eventually discovered the wheel?

Spanish Influenza or one of the big European pandemics would of wiped em out.
Maybe, but I doubt the effect would have been as bad as it was without the Spanish purposfully spreading it, and killing the people qualified (by 16th century standards, anyway) to treat/take care of the infected ones.

I wonder if the Inca had eventually discovered the wheel?

I believe they picked it up from the Spanish shortly after the invasion.

No horses and no wheel, not to mention other products from the Old World, would have doomed them to technological obsolescence even if they had gunpowder. The native civilizations would have been conquered at one point or another, if not by the Europeans then by Asian cultures like China or India.

They simply had too many disadvantages to really have a chance of achieving parity with other parts of the world.

I wonder if the Inca had eventually discovered the wheel?

That is what is truly amazing. I find it hard to believe that the wheel was not discovered. However I guess the advent of the wheel was directly tied to a large animal pulling the wheeled object. Maybe the lack of draft animals of sufficient size hindered the discovery.

I believe they picked it up from the Spanish shortly after the invasion.
I wouldn't know about that.
That is what is truly amazing. I find it hard to believe that the wheel was not discovered. However I guess the advent of the wheel was directly tied to a large animal pulling the wheeled object. Maybe the lack of draft animals of sufficient size hindered the discovery.
If you look at how and where the Inca lived, with very steep, mountainous terrain, my guess would be rather that than lack of draft animals - it does make sense to a certain extent that they didn't have need for the wheel. Then again - not having the wheel is a concept quite puzzling to me. I would've guessed that someone noticed a round rock rolling downhill eventually and copied the design?

If you look at how and where the Inca lived, with very steep, mountainous terrain, my guess would be rather that than lack of draft animals - it does make sense to a certain extent that they didn't have need for the wheel. Then again - not having the wheel is a concept quite puzzling to me. I would've guessed that someone noticed a round rock rolling downhill eventually and copied the design?

At the same time, of course, the same force that causes that rock to roll downhill could cause your wheeled cart loaded with crops to do the same if you ever lost control of it; the wheel might have been a disadvantage since they lacked the kind of animal power to really make it viable.

I wouldn't know about that.

If you look at how and where the Inca lived, with very steep, mountainous terrain, my guess would be rather that than lack of draft animals - it does make sense to a certain extent that they didn't have need for the wheel. Then again - not having the wheel is a concept quite puzzling to me. I would've guessed that someone noticed a round rock rolling downhill eventually and copied the design?

Possibly a point in that. However there were plenty of flat spots in the Americas. It is hard to figure out why none of the American tribes discovered it. I believe it was because the lack of draft animals. However we don't know for sure why. I would also think that as you put watching rocks roll down hills and the use of timbers to move objects over land would have sparked an inventive mind.

At the same time, of course, the same force that causes that rock to roll downhill could cause your wheeled cart loaded with crops to do the same if you ever lost control of it; the wheel might have been a disadvantage since they lacked the kind of animal power to really make it viable.
Yes, a very good point!
Possibly a point in that. However there were plenty of flat spots in the Americas. It is hard to figure out why none of the American tribes discovered it. I believe it was because the lack of draft animals. However we don't know for sure why. I would also think that as you put watching rocks roll down hills and the use of timbers to move objects over land would have sparked an inventive mind.
But the Inca empire was mostly located in the Andes - yet, that doesn't explain why others didn't come up with it. I mean, dogs were around - they could've pulled a wheeled cart?

Yes, a very good point!

But the Inca empire was mostly located in the Andes - but that doesn't explain why others didn't come up with it. I mean, dogs were around - they could've pulled a wheeled cart?

Well the Inca were in contact with the rest of the Americas either directly or through a third party(another tribe). So if one were to "invent" something they would all eventually get this knowledge. Dogs are not sufficient size enough to pull a wheeled cart I think. Llamas maybe?

No horses and no wheel, not to mention other products from the Old World, would have doomed them to technological obsolescence even if they had gunpowder. The native civilizations would have been conquered at one point or another, if not by the Europeans then by Asian cultures like China or India.

They simply had too many disadvantages to really have a chance of achieving parity with other parts of the world.

Products of the old world like...an organized, professional army? An effecient buerocracy? Metal weapons?
It could be pointed out that the Inca were, in many ways, technologically and culturally superior to Europeans at the time of the invasion. Yes, they lacked some things, but considering the size of the Spanish force, if you take away the apparently insane amount of luck the Spaniards had, theyre in for a tough time.
I seem to recall that sheer chance saved most of the famous Spanish 'explorers' several times. Without their charisma the Spanish invasion would have collapsed.
The only other people who would have been able to mount an effort like the Spanish would have been Portugal (which would have been illigal) and the British, who were more intersted in hindering the Spanish at that point anyway.

I seem to recall that sheer chance saved most of the famous Spanish 'explorers' several times. Without their charisma the Spanish invasion would have collapsed.

Disease destroyed the Inca Empire. Pizarro played a comparatively minor role.

Disease destroyed the Inca Empire. Pizarro played a comparatively minor role.

Depends on who you ask.
Killing/capturing the Sapa Inca (IMO) played a major part in the destruction of the empire. People tend to get upset when they think that the apocolypse is nigh, which it was, in a way.

Disease destroyed the Inca Empire. Pizarro played a comparatively minor role.

Yes it did. Smallpox killed 50% of the Inca population eventually.

Dogs are not sufficient size enough to pull a wheeled cart I think. Llamas maybe?
It works for dog-sleds, though. If one dog ain't strong enough, simply use more...
The real problem with dogs would be that the society based on agriculture would have some problems sustaining their meateating workanimals.