NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, so Gravlen admitted to this proud Norwegian epic: The Seventh Father of the House. (http://www.rootsweb.com/~norway/SeventhFather.htm)

Please go read it. It's short.
It also doesn't make an iota of sense.

Now, I don't know much about classic folk tales and fables and fairy tales but from what I know they only become classics in the first place because of some crummy old moral hidden rather badly between the plot points.


So my questions are these:

1) Are there any more of these utterly pointless but classic folk tales out there?
2) Why?
3) What does it all mean?

3) What does it all mean?

Meaning in the pointless? Uhuh...

It may not have had an obvious point but it might be one of those moralistic fables.

Englands full of them, and it seems my grandfarther knows them all.

Nice story. As far as I can tell, it says "if you're ever lost, talk to the seventh old man you find, and he will feed you."

go read some of the original Grimm's tales. Those are so twisted they will make you cry.

I may not have had an obvious point but it might be one of those moralistic fables."It might", "it might" - well, what is it, then?

Apart from the obvious one, of course :rolleyes: :p:
Nice story. As far as I can tell, it says "if you're ever lost, talk to the seventh old man you find, and he will feed you."
Does he have to be sitting in a tiny wall-mounted horn when you find him?

This is supposed to teach the virtue of patience, and it's a way to amuse the little 'uns with the structure of "How much older can they get?"

"Bring It On"
The cheerleader movie

"Moby Dick"
???????

Meaning in the pointless? Uhuh...Well, duh, I'm obviously still hoping for someone to convince me that not all is lost for Norwegian folklore.

I think its meant to pass the time/make someone sleepy

Does he have to be sitting in a tiny wall-mounted horn when you find him?

It certainly helps. If he's not, be deeply suspicious of him; anyone who is not truly the father of the house may not provide the promised grub.

It might be a moralistic story about the fact that one shouldn't rush towards a conclusion seeing as the traveller always assumed wrongly that the next old and respected old man was the father of the house but remained wrong 6 times in a row.

Or some psycho wrote it to torment you....

Well, duh, I'm obviously still hoping for someone to convince me that not all is lost for Norwegian folklore.

Oh, believe me, there's not much to salvage there.

This is supposed to teach the virtue of patience, and it's a way to amuse the little 'uns with the structure of "How much older can they get?"
It might be a moralistic story about the fact that one shouldn't rush towards a conclusion seeing as the traveller always assumed wrongly that the next old and respected old man was the father of the house but remained wrong 6 times in a row.
Hm, maybe. *isn't convinced*

I'd have to go with these:
I think its meant to pass the time/make someone sleepy
Or some psycho wrote it to torment you....

wow... deep. need to formulate my thoughts. but very profound fable.

"It might", "it might" - well, what is it, then?

Apart from the obvious one, of course :rolleyes: :p:

Does he have to be sitting in a tiny wall-mounted horn when you find him?

Don't make rash make assumptions? Be persistent?

and whats with the time warp here? Did someone broke the delorean?

It's not supposed to make sense! I mean, they wouldn't have made a movie out of it if it made sense, would they? :)

Oh, believe me, there's not much to salvage there.

You've got that right!




...well, there was that one story... Hmm....

perhaps it's a counter to the imperative that one must always respect one's elders, seeing as this traveller bloke kept respecting each old bloke he saw and it turned out he wasn't the chief.

or maybe the moral of the story is "on meeting an old bloke in a farmyard the first question one must ask is 'where is your great-great-great-great-great grandfather so i may ask him a question'"

on the other hand, the moral could be "never click a link to a story that you have already been told is pointless and will waste precious minutes of your life" :p

Don't make rash make assumptions? Be persistent?

Well, except for the fact that the guy isn't particularly rash, nor persistent. He just goes where he's told.

I think there is a hidden meaning in the metaphor of the serpents robes, though.

Oh yeah, and at least it wasn't violent. There seems to be an awful lot of violence in them old stories :)

You've got that right!

As is my habit.

It's not supposed to make sense! I mean, they wouldn't have made a movie out of it if it made sense, would they? :)
Did you just say they made this bloody thing into a movie?

...

This marks the second time tonight my blood pressure reaches a critical point reading a thread on NSG.


on the other hand, the moral could be "never click a link to a story that you have already been told is pointless and will waste precious minutes of your life" :pSold! To the young man with the orange hair. Congratulations, Sir.

It sounds like a story demonstrating the need for patience and courage when faced with adversity. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but that's what I got out of one reading.

I liked the story, actually.

Oh yeah, and at least it wasn't violent. There seems to be an awful lot of violence in them old stories :)Well - and believe me, it pains me to say this - I have to give you that.

I still remember one dreadful fairy tale (either by the Grimms or the Andersens, I can't recall) I read as a kid where the evil stepmother was put into a barrel that was studded with long nails (with the sharp points on the inside, of course) and rolled down a hill into the river.

*gulp*

Could be worse, could have been an Icelandic Saga. ;)
http://www.ibras.dk/montypython/episode27.htm#2

Or any number of Japanese myths. They usually make no sense either.

It sounds like a story demonstrating the need for patience and courage when faced with adversity. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but that's what I got out of one reading.

I liked the story, actually.I give you patience - but courage?

Okay, so Gravlen admitted to this proud Norwegian epic: The Seventh Father of the House. (http://www.rootsweb.com/~norway/SeventhFather.htm)

Please go read it. It's short.
It also doesn't make an iota of sense.

Now, I don't know much about classic folk tales and fables and fairy tales but from what I know they only become classics in the first place because of some crummy old moral hidden rather badly between the plot points.


So my questions are these:

1) Are there any more of these utterly pointless but classic folk tales out there?
2) Why?
3) What does it all mean?Ok, my attempt.

first, doesn't the number seven hold a special meaning to Norwegian folklore?

second, the fact that the seventh father is a spirit, that could also hint at it being Odin, the All-Father.

now if you notice, the wander's attitude throughout the entire story is one of respect, even tho he's being given the runaround, he's still respectful each time he asks for shelter. so being granted shelter is his reward for being respectful.

the attitude for each of the men he asks is humility, they know who the Father of the house is and none assumes that posistion but instead points the stranger to their father. the reward for such... well they did live in a splendid manor house (which does point to it being more spiritual than not.)

Could be worse, could have been an Icelandic Saga. ;)
http://www.ibras.dk/montypython/episode27.htm#2Bah, at least those have product placement.

I give you patience - but courage?
When faced with the strange and weird.

I'd say it's more alagory of keep going till you get the answer that you want, but be respectful while doing so.

Ok, my attempt.

first, doesn't the number seven hold a special meaning to Norwegian folklore?

second, the fact that the seventh father is a spirit, that could also hint at it being Odin, the All-Father.

now if you notice, the wander's attitude throughout the entire story is one of respect, even tho he's being given the runaround, he's still respectful each time he asks for shelter. so being granted shelter is his reward for being respectful.

the attitude for each of the men he asks is humility, they know who the Father of the house is and none assumes that posistion but instead points the stranger to their father. the reward for such... well they did live in a splendid manor house (which does point to it being more spiritual than not.)

I can certainly see that the story contains characters being respectful (towards their elders and authority, one assumes), I'd maybe even give you the humility. But just because it's in there, does that make it "the moral of the story"? Couldn't they have found a muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch better story to get across the point of how being respectful and humble are good for your karma? (except, you know, without actually calling it karma :p).

When faced with the strange and weird. Hehe. Then I demand my Medal for Extraordinary Patience and Courage in the Face of Norwegian Folk Tale Adversity. Now, please.

I'd say it's more alagory of keep going till you get the answer that you want, but be respectful while doing so.Yeah, but doesn't that make for the lamest reason to write an allegorical story ever?

go read some of the original Grimm's tales. Those are so twisted they will make you cry.

the Grimm stories aren't the originals...the Grimm brothers were linguists, not writers. They wrote down one of several dozen versions to study language.
Cinderella alone has over 350 written versions, many predating the Grimm brothers

Hehe. Then I demand my Medal for Extraordinary Patience and Courage in the Face of Norwegian Folk Tale Adversity. Now, please.
Ok! http://www.president.am/photos/101.jpg

Yeah, but doesn't that make for the lamest reason to write an allegorical story ever?
Well, no. There are worse allegorical stories out there, MUCH worse.

I give you patience - but courage?

Remember the guy was really scared when he spoke to the father, but went through with it despite his fear?

Ok! http://www.president.am/photos/101.jpg Excellent! :cool:


Well, no. There are worse allegorical stories out there, MUCH worse.There are? :eek: *faints*

Well, I hate to say it, but this is the place to post them and salvage Norway's reputation for Uncommon Sanity.


Remember the guy was really scared when he spoke to the father, but went through with it despite his fear?Actually, I don't remember that. :p
But since I really don't want to read it again (aka don't even want to click that link even one more time) I'll believe you and concede on the courage.

Did you just say they made this bloody thing into a movie?

...

This marks the second time tonight my blood pressure reaches a critical point reading a thread on NSG.


Sold! To the young man with the orange hair. Congratulations, Sir.

yay! :D

I can certainly see that the story contains characters being respectful (towards their elders and authority, one assumes), I'd maybe even give you the humility. But just because it's in there, does that make it "the moral of the story"? Couldn't they have found a muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch better story to get across the point of how being respectful and humble are good for your karma? (except, you know, without actually calling it karma :p).

no one asked for the "moral of the story". Just for the Point.

remember, one has to also take in 1) the customs of the time that story was created. 2) the spiritual/religious outlook of the people then. 3) the target audience.

only by examining those, you can then see what was trying to be told.

Take Hansel and Gretel. some may say the lession is the dangers of Gluttonly, others stealing (after all, the children started to eat the gingerbread house without asking.) some can posit a warning about talking to strangers. or it can be about the Strength of family (the children were abandoned in the woods, yet brother and sister watched out for each other.) or it can be all of the above.

As for finding a better story? that story was probably the best seller when it was first told. *shrugs*

There are? :eek: *faints*

Well, I hate to say it, but this is the place to post them and salvage Norway's reputation for Uncommon Sanity.
Don't say I didn't warn you:

The Two Frogs
Once upon a time in the country of Japan there lived two frogs, one of whom made his home in a ditch near the town of Osaka, on the sea coast, while the other dwelt in a clear little stream which ran through the city of Kyoto. At such a great distance apart, they had never even heard of each other; but, funnily enough, the idea came into both their heads at once that they should like to see a little of the world, and the frog who lived at Kyoto wanted to visit Osaka, and the frog who lived at Osaka wished to go to Kyoto, where the great Mikado had his palace.

So one fine morning in the spring they both set out along the road that led from Kyoto to Osaka, one from one end and the other from the other. The journey was more tiring than they expected, for they did not know much about traveling, and halfway between the two towns there arose a mountain which had to be climbed. It took them a long time and a great many hops to reach the top, but there they were at last, and what was the surprise of each to see another frog before him!

They looked at each other for a moment without speaking, and then fell into conversation, explaining the cause of their meeting so far from their homes. It was delightful to find that they both felt the same wish--to learn a little more of their native country--and as there was no sort of hurry they stretched themselves out in a cool, damp place, and agreed that they would have a good rest before they parted to go their ways.

"What a pity we are not bigger," said the Osaka frog; "for then we could see both towns from here, and tell if it is worth our while going on."

"Oh, that is easily managed," returned the Kyoto frog. "We have only got to stand up on our hind legs, and hold onto each other, and then we can each look at the town he is traveling to."

This idea pleased the Osaka frog so much that he at once jumped up and put his front paws on the shoulder of his friend, who had risen also. There they both stood, stretching themselves as high as they could, and holding each other tightly, so that they might not fall down. The Kyoto frog turned his nose towards Osaka, and the Osaka frog turned his nose towards Kyoto; but the foolish things forgot that when they stood up their great eyes lay in the backs of their heads, and that though their noses might point to the places to which they wanted to go, their eyes beheld the places from which they had come.

"Dear me!" cried the Osaka frog, "Kyoto is exactly like Osaka. It is certainly not worth such a long journey. I shall go home!"

"If I had had any idea that Osaka was only a copy of Kyoto I should never have traveled all this way," exclaimed the frog from Kyoto, and as he spoke he took his hands from his friend's shoulders, and they both fell down on the grass. Then they took a polite farewell of each other, and set off for home again, and to the end of their lives they believed that Osaka and Kyoto, which are as different to look at as two towns can be, were as alike as two peas.

Edit: Source page with some more tales: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/japan.html

no one asked for the "moral of the story". Just for the Point. Isn't that the same thing?

remember, one has to also take in 1) the customs of the time that story was created. 2) the spiritual/religious outlook of the people then. 3) the target audience.

only by examining those, you can then see what was trying to be told. I know. But usually we can easily discern the point/moral of folk and fairy tales, so why would this one be such an exception?

Take Hansel and Gretel. some may say the lession is the dangers of Gluttonly, others stealing (after all, the children started to eat the gingerbread house without asking.) some can posit a warning about talking to strangers. or it can be about the Strength of family (the children were abandoned in the woods, yet brother and sister watched out for each other.) or it can be all of the above. Good point there. Hmm.

As for finding a better story? that story was probably the best seller when it was first told. *shrugs*:p

Don't say I didn't warn you:
I already hate myself for reading this...

*reads*

The Two Frogs
Once upon a time in the country of Japan there lived two frogs, one of whom made his home in a ditch near the town of Osaka, on the sea coast, while the other dwelt in a clear little stream which ran through the city of Kyoto. At such a great distance apart, they had never even heard of each other; but, funnily enough, the idea came into both their heads at once that they should like to see a little of the world, and the frog who lived at Kyoto wanted to visit Osaka, and the frog who lived at Osaka wished to go to Kyoto, where the great Mikado had his palace.

So one fine morning in the spring they both set out along the road that led from Kyoto to Osaka, one from one end and the other from the other. The journey was more tiring than they expected, for they did not know much about traveling, and halfway between the two towns there arose a mountain which had to be climbed. It took them a long time and a great many hops to reach the top, but there they were at last, and what was the surprise of each to see another frog before him!

They looked at each other for a moment without speaking, and then fell into conversation, explaining the cause of their meeting so far from their homes. It was delightful to find that they both felt the same wish--to learn a little more of their native country--and as there was no sort of hurry they stretched themselves out in a cool, damp place, and agreed that they would have a good rest before they parted to go their ways.

"What a pity we are not bigger," said the Osaka frog; "for then we could see both towns from here, and tell if it is worth our while going on."

"Oh, that is easily managed," returned the Kyoto frog. "We have only got to stand up on our hind legs, and hold onto each other, and then we can each look at the town he is traveling to."

This idea pleased the Osaka frog so much that he at once jumped up and put his front paws on the shoulder of his friend, who had risen also. There they both stood, stretching themselves as high as they could, and holding each other tightly, so that they might not fall down. The Kyoto frog turned his nose towards Osaka, and the Osaka frog turned his nose towards Kyoto; but the foolish things forgot that when they stood up their great eyes lay in the backs of their heads, and that though their noses might point to the places to which they wanted to go, their eyes beheld the places from which they had come.

"Dear me!" cried the Osaka frog, "Kyoto is exactly like Osaka. It is certainly not worth such a long journey. I shall go home!"

"If I had had any idea that Osaka was only a copy of Kyoto I should never have traveled all this way," exclaimed the frog from Kyoto, and as he spoke he took his hands from his friend's shoulders, and they both fell down on the grass. Then they took a polite farewell of each other, and set off for home again, and to the end of their lives they believed that Osaka and Kyoto, which are as different to look at as two towns can be, were as alike as two peas.

Hey, this wasn't half bad!

For one, unlike that Norwegian tale, this was actually fun and entertaining to read.

For another, this reads like there is a rather important philosophical point to it, it's right there, I just can't quite get at it...

I already hate myself for reading this...

*reads*

Hey, this wasn't half bad!

For one, unlike that Norwegian tale, this was actually fun and entertaining to read.

For another, this reads like there is a rather important philosophical point to it, it's right there, I just can't quite get at it...
*suddenly feels like Dr. Forester* Ok... try this one then:

A Woman and the Bell of Miidera

In the ancient monastery of Miidera there was a great bronze bell. It rang out every morning and evening, a clear, rich note, and its surface shone like sparkling dew. The priests would not allow any woman to strike it, because they thought that such an action would pollute and dull the metal, as well as bring calamity upon them.

When a certain pretty woman who lived in Kyoto heard this, she grew extremely inquisitive, and at last, unable to restrain her curiosity, she said: "I will go and see this wonderful bell of Miidera. I will make it send forth a soft note, and in its shining surface, bigger and brighter than a thousand mirrors, I will paint and powder my face and dress my hair."

At length this vain and irreverent woman reached the belfry in which the great bell was suspended, at a time when all were absorbed in their sacred duties. She looked into the gleaming bell and saw her pretty eyes, flushed cheeks, and laughing dimples. Presently she stretched forth her little fingers, lightly touched the shining metal, and prayed that she might have as great and splendid a mirror for her own. When the bell felt this woman's fingers, the bronze that she touched shrank, leaving a little hollow, and losing at the same time all its exquisite polish.

*suddenly feels like Dr. Forester*
Who?

Ok... try this one then:

A Woman and the Bell of Miidera

In the ancient monastery of Miidera there was a great bronze bell. It rang out every morning and evening, a clear, rich note, and its surface shone like sparkling dew. The priests would not allow any woman to strike it, because they thought that such an action would pollute and dull the metal, as well as bring calamity upon them.

When a certain pretty woman who lived in Kyoto heard this, she grew extremely inquisitive, and at last, unable to restrain her curiosity, she said: "I will go and see this wonderful bell of Miidera. I will make it send forth a soft note, and in its shining surface, bigger and brighter than a thousand mirrors, I will paint and powder my face and dress my hair."

At length this vain and irreverent woman reached the belfry in which the great bell was suspended, at a time when all were absorbed in their sacred duties. She looked into the gleaming bell and saw her pretty eyes, flushed cheeks, and laughing dimples. Presently she stretched forth her little fingers, lightly touched the shining metal, and prayed that she might have as great and splendid a mirror for her own. When the bell felt this woman's fingers, the bronze that she touched shrank, leaving a little hollow, and losing at the same time all its exquisite polish.
Ah, the mysogynist Captain Obvious brother to Norway's Little Tale That Couldn't. :rolleyes:

The moral of this particular story: Too much driving home of the point = bad.

Who?
Dr. Clayton Forrester... Mystery Science Theater 3000... come on, you HAVE to have seen that!

Dr. Clayton Forrester... Mystery Science Theater 3000... come on, you HAVE to have seen that!
This is where I would point to my location, had I bothered to type one in. :p

This is where I would point to my location, had I bothered to type one in. :p
You poor, poor depraved person.
Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_Science_Theater_3000

Now go download some episodes (I highly recomend Cave People, Santa Claus Conquers the Martians, and Manos: Hands of Fate).

You poor, poor depraved person.
Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_Science_Theater_3000

Now go download some episodes (I highly recomend Cave People, Santa Claus Conquers the Martians, and Manos: Hands of Fate).Certainly you meant to type deprived, right? *glares* :p

And maybe I will check those out.

Edit: Wait, I think a friend told me about that show before. I thought it sounded horrible. :p
He thought I was crazy. ;p

It doesn't even make no sense to me.. is that guy Santa? At first I thought the story was going towards Christ.. but even then , if it was.. it would've been bap.

"There was a squeaking sound up in the horn like a tiny titmouse, and it was all he could do to make out that the sound meant: "Yes, my child" Then in came a table decked with the costliest dishes, and with ale and spirits, too. And when the traveler had eaten and drunk, in came a good bed covered with reindeer hides. And he was very glad that at last he had found the true father of the house."

Comedy?

Comedy?On Fox News level, then, at most.

Certainly you meant to type deprived, right? *glares* :p
*Whistles innocently* :p ;)

Edit: Wait, I think a friend told me about that show before. I thought it sounded horrible. :p
He thought I was crazy. ;p
And I would agree, it's a hilarous show.

Okay, so Gravlen admitted to this proud Norwegian epic: The Seventh Father of the House. (http://www.rootsweb.com/~norway/SeventhFather.htm)

Please go read it. It's short.
It also doesn't make an iota of sense.

Now, I don't know much about classic folk tales and fables and fairy tales but from what I know they only become classics in the first place because of some crummy old moral hidden rather badly between the plot points.


So my questions are these:

1) Are there any more of these utterly pointless but classic folk tales out there?
2) Why?
3) What does it all mean?

Well folk tales tend to wander a bit as the years go by. Cinderella originally featured a fur slipper rather than a glass one. That only becomes significant when you consider what "fur slipper" was slang for.

The tale is probably meant to stress the importance of Norwegian traditions of hospitality. Those tend to be very important in areas with harsh climates. Especially those that are frequently snowbound, or baking desert.

The original version probably featured Gods or Dwarves too, making it a bit more sensible, but Scandanavian folktales got massacred when they became Christianized.

Could be worse, could have been an Icelandic Saga. ;)
http://www.ibras.dk/montypython/episode27.htm#2

Or any number of Japanese myths. They usually make no sense either.

Japanese myths rock! How could anyone not like a mythology that often revolves around getting drunk on sake and sex. But the Zen stories are the best.

A student went to his teacher and said earnestly, "I am devoted to studying your system. How long will it take me to master it." The teacher's reply was casual, "Ten years." Impatiently, the student answered, "But I want to master it faster than that. I will work very hard. I will practice everyday, ten or more hours a day if I have to. How long will it take then?" The teacher thought for a moment, "20 years."

Ok, my attempt.

first, doesn't the number seven hold a special meaning to Norwegian folklore?

Indeed, and not just in Norway. I put the story's title into google and
this (http://www.creativekeys.net/StorytellingPower/article1058.html) was one of the first things that came up.

second, the fact that the seventh father is a spirit, that could also hint at it being Odin, the All-Father.

now if you notice, the wander's attitude throughout the entire story is one of respect, even tho he's being given the runaround, he's still respectful each time he asks for shelter. so being granted shelter is his reward for being respectful.

the attitude for each of the men he asks is humility, they know who the Father of the house is and none assumes that posistion but instead points the stranger to their father. the reward for such... well they did live in a splendid manor house (which does point to it being more spiritual than not.)

Bingo. And the traveller wasn't simply granted shelter, but splended shelter with "a table decked with the costliest dishes, and with ale and spirits, too" and "a good bed covered with reindeer hides."

For one, unlike that Norwegian tale, this was actually fun and entertaining to read.

For another, this reads like there is a rather important philosophical point to it, it's right there, I just can't quite get at it...

Hmmm...both of those had obvious points and morals to me.

Th traveller who demonstates virtue and is rewarded and the traveller who shows foolishness and thus misses an opprotunity or is punished are common themes in stories.

It doesn't even make no sense to me.. is that guy Santa? At first I thought the story was going towards Christ.. but even then , if it was.. it would've been bap.

Santa? Christ?? I'd be rather surprised if it did. As JuNii pointed out it's likely Pagan in it's origins, so try Odin.

"There was a squeaking sound up in the horn like a tiny titmouse, and it was all he could do to make out that the sound meant: "Yes, my child" Then in came a table decked with the costliest dishes, and with ale and spirits, too. And when the traveler had eaten and drunk, in came a good bed covered with reindeer hides. And he was very glad that at last he had found the true father of the house."

Comedy?

Reward, and the moral.

Okay, so Gravlen admitted to this proud Norwegian epic: The Seventh Father of the House. (http://www.rootsweb.com/~norway/SeventhFather.htm)

Hahahahha, it's just like going to a government office.

"I don't know about that, I'm not the one in charge of that, you'll have to speak to so and so..."

Repeated over, and over again.

Could be worse, could have been an Icelandic Saga. ;)
http://www.ibras.dk/montypython/episode27.htm#2

Or any number of Japanese myths. They usually make no sense either.

They probably do within the proper cultural context. I can think of any number of Cree tales that would probably make no sense to a non-aboriginal...or even a non-Cree. Not to mention the words that would have no possible translation into English.

Santa? Christ?? I'd be rather surprised if it did. As JuNii pointed out it's likely Pagan in it's origins, so try Odin.

Odin! I don't know enough about him to had been aware. All I've been exposed to for Odin is from playing Age of Mythology, but I do believe he is the god of the dwarves, and dwarves are cool... I play one in WoW. But I do know some White Nationalists, online, that follow the Odin religion. I never researched it myself.

They probably do within the proper cultural context. I can think of any number of Cree tales that would probably make no sense to a non-aboriginal...or even a non-Cree. Not to mention the words that would have no possible translation into English.
I'd say more proper time period, I've met a number of Japanese who don't know or cannot understand the old folk tales, sometimes just because the creatures that are being talked about have been driven far away from the cities and towns.

I'd say more proper time period, I've met a number of Japanese who don't know or cannot understand the old folk tales, sometimes just because the creatures that are being talked about have been driven far away from the cities and towns.

The same thing is especially true in the US and other countries that are comprised primarily of immigrants or descendants of immigrants; many folktales that existed in our ancestors' countries are either lost or difficult to understand because we have no ties to those cultures or those environments. We don't even have the common cultural background that might be of help in those sorts of cases.

Of course, we've responded in kind with the development of urban legends and similar modern folktales, but the original folktales themselves have been endangered or destroyed over time.

Okay, so Gravlen admitted to this proud Norwegian epic: The Seventh Father of the House. (http://www.rootsweb.com/~norway/SeventhFather.htm)

Please go read it. It's short.
It also doesn't make an iota of sense.

Now, I don't know much about classic folk tales and fables and fairy tales but from what I know they only become classics in the first place because of some crummy old moral hidden rather badly between the plot points.


So my questions are these:

1) Are there any more of these utterly pointless but classic folk tales out there?
2) Why?
3) What does it all mean?


I have no idea what the meaning is, but I don't belive any folx tales dviod of meaning.

You have to place yourselve in the culture at the time.

I do know that long ago in that part of the world, to give a travelerr respite from the weather, food, and a bed for the night was considered the hight of curtesy and good manaers.

There are many folx tales of that age that deal with travel, travelers, and how on should treat them. There are warning tales about what happens to people who do not fullfill their obligations to travelers, but this one seems to have a ring of 'what the duties of a traveler towards his hosts are' about it.

The same thing is especially true in the US and other countries that are comprised primarily of immigrants or descendants of immigrants; many folktales that existed in our ancestors' countries are either lost or difficult to understand because we have no ties to those cultures or those environments. We don't even have the common cultural background that might be of help in those sorts of cases.

Of course, we've responded in kind with the development of urban legends and similar modern folktales, but the original folktales themselves have been endangered or destroyed over time.


Yeah whatis that big blue ox thing about then?

Ok, my attempt.

first, doesn't the number seven hold a special meaning to Norwegian folklore?

second, the fact that the seventh father is a spirit, that could also hint at it being Odin, the All-Father.

now if you notice, the wander's attitude throughout the entire story is one of respect, even tho he's being given the runaround, he's still respectful each time he asks for shelter. so being granted shelter is his reward for being respectful.

the attitude for each of the men he asks is humility, they know who the Father of the house is and none assumes that posistion but instead points the stranger to their father. the reward for such... well they did live in a splendid manor house (which does point to it being more spiritual than not.)

Well done. It's a story of spirit and moving through layers of consciousness or mind-set to finally find one that most approaches the truth.

The journier is the seeker after truth, i.e. a place where he can rest. He is a religious person, and the home is the world of spirit that he has finally entered (that is, a realisation of spirit). The old men he meets are versions of god that he temporarily mistakes for the real thing, but each tells him, in some way, that he's not, so the journier keeps searching. When he finds the seventh one (like seven layers of heaven) then he's as close as he's going to get in this life-time, and he can lay his head down, have a last meal and sleep the good sleep.

It's very much a polytheism story (not all that different from monotheism, you will notice).

Don't say I didn't warn you:

The Two Frogs
Once upon a time in the country of Japan there lived two frogs, one of whom made his home in a ditch near the town of Osaka, on the sea coast, while the other dwelt in a clear little stream which ran through the city of Kyoto. At such a great distance apart, they had never even heard of each other; but, funnily enough, the idea came into both their heads at once that they should like to see a little of the world, and the frog who lived at Kyoto wanted to visit Osaka, and the frog who lived at Osaka wished to go to Kyoto, where the great Mikado had his palace.

So one fine morning in the spring they both set out along the road that led from Kyoto to Osaka, one from one end and the other from the other. The journey was more tiring than they expected, for they did not know much about traveling, and halfway between the two towns there arose a mountain which had to be climbed. It took them a long time and a great many hops to reach the top, but there they were at last, and what was the surprise of each to see another frog before him!

They looked at each other for a moment without speaking, and then fell into conversation, explaining the cause of their meeting so far from their homes. It was delightful to find that they both felt the same wish--to learn a little more of their native country--and as there was no sort of hurry they stretched themselves out in a cool, damp place, and agreed that they would have a good rest before they parted to go their ways.

"What a pity we are not bigger," said the Osaka frog; "for then we could see both towns from here, and tell if it is worth our while going on."

"Oh, that is easily managed," returned the Kyoto frog. "We have only got to stand up on our hind legs, and hold onto each other, and then we can each look at the town he is traveling to."

This idea pleased the Osaka frog so much that he at once jumped up and put his front paws on the shoulder of his friend, who had risen also. There they both stood, stretching themselves as high as they could, and holding each other tightly, so that they might not fall down. The Kyoto frog turned his nose towards Osaka, and the Osaka frog turned his nose towards Kyoto; but the foolish things forgot that when they stood up their great eyes lay in the backs of their heads, and that though their noses might point to the places to which they wanted to go, their eyes beheld the places from which they had come.

"Dear me!" cried the Osaka frog, "Kyoto is exactly like Osaka. It is certainly not worth such a long journey. I shall go home!"

"If I had had any idea that Osaka was only a copy of Kyoto I should never have traveled all this way," exclaimed the frog from Kyoto, and as he spoke he took his hands from his friend's shoulders, and they both fell down on the grass. Then they took a polite farewell of each other, and set off for home again, and to the end of their lives they believed that Osaka and Kyoto, which are as different to look at as two towns can be, were as alike as two peas.

Haha, that one's easy: the mountain is what they take for spiritualism, with a shiney goal on the other side, and they climb it a step at a time (though certainly more than seven steps). And when they reach the top, to rest, they find they haven't gotten anywhere, and they're not heading where want to be, so they quit.

Odin! I don't know enough about him to had been aware. All I've been exposed to for Odin is from playing Age of Mythology, but I do believe he is the god of the dwarves, and dwarves are cool... I play one in WoW. But I do know some White Nationalists, online, that follow the Odin religion. I never researched it myself.

:( That makes me sad. You've missed out on a whole slice of cultural education if you aren't familiar with the Norse/Germanic muthos.

Well done. It's a story of spirit and moving through layers of consciousness or mind-set to finally find one that most approaches the truth.

The journier is the seeker after truth, i.e. a place where he can rest. He is a religious person, and the home is the world of spirit that he has finally entered (that is, a realisation of spirit). The old men he meets are versions of god that he temporarily mistakes for the real thing, but each tells him, in some way, that he's not, so the journier keeps searching. When he finds the seventh one (like seven layers of heaven) then he's as close as he's going to get in this life-time, and he can lay his head down, have a last meal and sleep the good sleep.

It's very much a polytheism story (not all that different from monotheism, you will notice).

:) You make me happy.

The following Hans Christian Anderson "fairy tales" (which I find just bad and not really märchenhaft in comparison to the Grimmsche Märchensammlung - never liked them)

The little match girl (Das kleine Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern) [Who wants to hear about a young child dying, eh?]

The Little Mermaid (Die kleine Meerjungfrau) [What the fuck? Why no happy ending? Fairy tales always end happy and with a moral!]

And there are some others I never really liked - but I forgot their names because I never really liked'em. Well, yeah...

Okay, so Gravlen admitted to this proud Norwegian epic: The Seventh Father of the House. (http://www.rootsweb.com/~norway/SeventhFather.htm)

Please go read it. It's short.
It also doesn't make an iota of sense.

Now, I don't know much about classic folk tales and fables and fairy tales but from what I know they only become classics in the first place because of some crummy old moral hidden rather badly between the plot points.


So my questions are these:

1) Are there any more of these utterly pointless but classic folk tales out there?
2) Why?
3) What does it all mean?

these folk tales are for children.

in this one we learn the value of being polite even when the adults around us are being assholes. that first old man knew where the 7th grandfather was, he just wanted to jerk the guy around as did the rest of the mean old farts.

its just like real life when you are 4.

The following Hans Christian Anderson "fairy tales" (which I find just bad and not really märchenhaft in comparison to the Grimmsche Märchensammlung - never liked them)

The little match girl (Das kleine Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern) [Who wants to hear about a young child dying, eh?]

The Little Mermaid (Die kleine Meerjungfrau) [What the fuck? Why no happy ending? Fairy tales always end happy and with a moral!]

And there are some others I never really liked - but I forgot their names because I never really liked'em. Well, yeah...

i liked the anderson ones more when i was young because they didnt have the easy happy ending. they are more complex stories even when you dont really understand them.

i prefered the little match girl frozen to death over snow white being saved by a necrophiliac prince.

You poor, poor depraved person.
Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_Science_Theater_3000

Now go download some episodes (I highly recomend Cave People, Santa Claus Conquers the Martians, and Manos: Hands of Fate).MANO?!?! Noooooooo! even they couldn't save that film...

Crawling eye, or Mantis... not Manos! :headbang:

Haha, that one's easy: the mountain is what they take for spiritualism, with a shiney goal on the other side, and they climb it a step at a time (though certainly more than seven steps). And when they reach the top, to rest, they find they haven't gotten anywhere, and they're not heading where want to be, so they quit.
I took it to mean a lesson in anticipation. sometimes the goal we obtain is far different than what we think we're aiming for.

first, doesn't the number seven hold a special meaning to Norwegian folklore?
Yes, as in other places (See Snow White and the Seven dwarves)... and there seems to be a lot of magic numbers like that, like the number three. Everything happens in threes, usually.

second, the fact that the seventh father is a spirit, that could also hint at it being Odin, the All-Father.
He's not really a spirit, just very very old :)
You poor, poor depraved person.
Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_Science_Theater_3000

Now go download some episodes (I highly recomend Cave People, Santa Claus Conquers the Martians, and Manos: Hands of Fate).

Manos sucks so bad not even MST3K can redeem it... See MST3K: The movie :)

:eek: "Don't leave me here with the Germans!" Classic! :D

As I am writing this the poll is 11-11-8-11-12. It is one of the most even sets of results that I have ever seen here.

ANYWAY... I think there is meaning in everything, if one digs deep enough. My guess for a moral in this peculiar tale is that good things come to those who are persistent. I am of the opinion that supposedly useless things should not be immediately discarded, because they can have hidden value. Even if a story is difficult to understand, it might be a great loss to erase it from history for that reason.

The real question here is why the first son did not tell the poor, wearly traveller to go speak to the horny guy. It seems a bit cruel to lead him on a wild goose chase. Again, though, that may have some deep meaning.

Yes, as in other places (See Snow White and the Seven dwarves)... and there seems to be a lot of magic numbers like that, like the number three. Everything happens in threes, usually.
I thought the original story was Snow White and the Several Dwarves.

And Norwegians suck, they've been trounced by both the Swedes, the Danes, the French, the Germans and will probably bow before the dominance of Finland before the 21st century is over.

I thought the original story was Snow White and the Several Dwarves.
No, the original was Snow White and the more than one short guy.

And Norwegians suck, they've been trounced by both the Swedes, the Danes, the French, the Germans and will probably bow before the dominance of Finland before the 21st century is over.
Pfft! It's a conspiracy. They've learned to work the system from within, and they do it really well ;)

No, the original was Snow White and the more than one short guy.
Same thing.
[/denial]
Pfft! It's a conspiracy. They've learned to work the system from within, and they do it really well ;)
Or maybe they're the one's getting worked by the system, and it has made them bitter, so they're getting their revenge the best way they know how: folk tales.

i liked the anderson ones more when i was young because they didnt have the easy happy ending.
But that's exactly what I expect of a true fairy tale!
they are more complex stories even when you dont really understand them.
Yeah, what the hell - I don't even understand them today! It's not really about complexity - it's about meaning. They're meaningless.
i prefered the little match girl frozen to death over snow white being saved by a necrophiliac prince.
Okay, now that's just strange and a really weird way to look at it.

Yeah whatis that big blue ox thing about then?

That we should all strive to consume as much as possible and grow to superhuman size?

Oh wait...

Same thing.
[/denial]
;) :fluffle:

Or maybe they're the one's getting worked by the system, and it has made them bitter, so they're getting their revenge the best way they know how: folk tales.
You may note that they stopped making new folk tales a long time ago... They used them to try to stop the rule of the danish, but when that took several hundred years to produce any results they changed tactics. (The results were very effective though - Denmark just gave them away and fled!) Norway then started working from the inside against Sweden, and that took them less than a hundred years, a vast improvement :)

Sigh.

I read all the replies and I've avoided posting in my own thread all day. :p

On one hand, reading the explanations/theories of what the story might mean makes me feel stupid and shortsighted.

On the other hand, I still don't exactly buy them. Which makes me either stubborn or right. :p

And I'm still way too irritated by that story to go looking for "official" interpretations by professional Norwegian folk tale experts.

:/

Oh my, it's really gotten under your skin hasn't it? :D
It seems it has. >.< :p

And I'm still way too irritated by that story to go looking for "official" interpretations by professional Norwegian folk tale experts.

:/

Oh my, it's really gotten under your skin hasn't it? :D

Yes, as in other places (See Snow White and the Seven dwarves)... and there seems to be a lot of magic numbers like that, like the number three. Everything happens in threes, usually.I believe the original version of Snow White didn't mention a number, just that she was staying in a home of "little Men."

He's not really a spirit, just very very old :)err... Didn't it say that the horn contained ashes. he saw a face in the ashes?

I believe the original version of Snow White didn't mention a number, just that she was staying in a home of "little Men."
That's why I later said something about "the white girl and them >1 short guys"... Or whatever I said...

err... Didn't it say that the horn contained ashes. he saw a face in the ashes?
No...
there was nothing to see but a little ash-white form that had the likeness of a human face
...it's just saying that the person was ashen, like white in the face? Old and very very small, as you could expect a person well passed his 150s would look. :)

Oh my, it's really gotten under your skin hasn't it? :D
Hey, I totally replied to this!

*mutters about jolt eating posts*

It's a zen thing. A Norwegian zen thing . . .
"Beautiful plummage!"

Hey, I totally replied to this!

*mutters about jolt eating posts*
I saw that - it's not eaten, it's just placed on the previous page :)

Sigh.

I read all the replies and I've avoided posting in my own thread all day. :p

On one hand, reading the explanations/theories of what the story might mean makes me feel stupid and shortsighted.

On the other hand, I still don't exactly buy them. Which makes me either stubborn or right. :p

And I'm still way too irritated by that story to go looking for "official" interpretations by professional Norwegian folk tale experts.

:/
Don't you hate it when you ask for the answer to a question and you get it, when you really just wanted to rant? Damn logical people!! :p

I agree that this folk tale, and many others, was pretty damn dull and whatever point it may have had was expressed badly and... *trails off while muttering and shaking fist :p*

Don't you hate it when you ask for the answer to a question and you get it, when you really just wanted to rant? Damn logical people!! :p

I agree that this folk tale, and many others, was pretty damn dull and whatever point it may have had was expressed badly and... *trails off while muttering and shaking fist :p*

Muhaha! More ranting! :D

*Takes credit / blame as the one who provided inspiration for this thread*

On one hand, reading the explanations/theories of what the story might mean makes me feel stupid and shortsighted.

On the other hand, I still don't exactly buy them. Which makes me either stubborn or right. :p

And I'm still way too irritated by that story to go looking for "official" interpretations by professional Norwegian folk tale experts.

:/
Thing is, though - if a fairy tale needs explanation and forces you to put much thought into it, it's a bad fairy tale. They should always be self-explanatory when you first hear them.