NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6384781.stm

"A second US soldier's plea of guilty to the gang rape of a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and the killing of her and her family has been accepted by a judge.

Sgt Paul Cortez admitted four murders, rape and conspiracy to rape."

"In court, Cortez admitted the plan was hatched as they played cards and that the girl had been targeted because there was only one male in her house, making it an easy target."

""After Barker was done, Green came out of the bedroom and said that he had killed them all, that all of them were dead."

Cortez added: "Green then placed himself between Abeer's legs to rape her. When Green was finished, he stood up and shot Abeer in the head two or three times."

The entire crime took about five minutes and the girl knew her parents and sister had been shot while she was being raped, the hearing heard."

Sorry about the cynical headline, but this story is so sickening, I'm lost for words and yet again reminded why I cannot feel sad for the 3000+ US soldiers dead in Iraq when who knows how many similar stories go undiscovered.

Cynical would be "If he was an officer, he'd have gotten off with a slap on the wrist."

Hopefully this asshole fries. It's not like the troops need more native resentments to make their jobs miserable on top of Il Douche's brilliant strategies.

Yep. In a way, its a metaphor for America abroad for many years now, isn't it?

In before the people who are more interested in complaining about Fass's anti-american attitude than condemning the rape.
So you actively condemn every rape that occurs? Do you cover date rape as well? If so, I'll bet you're really gearing up for the coming season.

So you actively condemn every rape that occurs? Do you cover date rape as well? If so, I'll bet you're really gearing up for the coming season.

No, but I once posted in a thread before people who were more interested in complaining about Fass's anti-american attitude than condemning a rape mentioned in the OP did. In retrospect, it was pretty spammy, so I decided to delete it.

These soldiers are a disgrace to the very word, as well as to America and its army and deserve no less than death, personally I wouldn't mind if it was especially painful either.

Evil in every sense of the word.

It would do more justice to hand them over to the Iraqi Courts. Although they'd probably let them off the rape charges...

In all honesty I don't know what to say. It is disgusting.

Sorry about the cynical headline, but this story is so sickening, I'm lost for words and yet again reminded why I cannot feel sad for the 3000+ US soldiers dead in Iraq when who knows how many similar stories go undiscovered.

I find it hilarious that you were trying at first to be a beacon of human morality in condemning such devious acts, but due to your strong anti-american feelings, you cannot show that same compassion for 3000+ men and women who have lost their lives.

Isn't it hypocritical to say that you can't feel sad for us soldiers that have died because its possible they might have done wrong, but you will have compassion for dead civillians? Isn't it possible those civillians could have done something wrong to cause the death of american soldiers? their own countrymen? For all we know, that 14 yr old girl and her family could have been helping plant road side bombs to kill innocent US soldiers.

God how I love spin. :)

God how I love spin. :)

Spin is just assuming that these soldiers some how represent the whole of American Troops, which is the powerful vibe I'm getting from this thread.

I don't care if this family was directly behind 9/11, it's still fucking repulsive.

Spin is just assuming that these soldiers some how represent the whole of American Troops, which is the powerful vibe I'm getting from this thread.

I don't care if this family was directly behind 9/11, it's still fucking repulsive.

But isn't it equally repulsive that the american soldiers are being killed in brutal ways?

How can we justify one life over another?

But isn't it equally repulsive that the american soldiers are being killed in brutal ways?

How can we justify one life over another?

Soldiers, sadly enough, are paid to fight and getting brutally killed comes with that tragic piece of territory.

A 14 year old Iraqi girl who was raped after her family was killed, and then executed isn't under the same definition. Those who did this need to pay for the love of everything that represents human decency.

This one soldier's despicable actions should not reflect upon those who do their duty with honor, nor should it reflect upon the dead. This was one man, and he should be dealt with swiftly and justly.

Beyond this, I think that everyone needs to understand that this is war, with losses on both sides. But without a doubt, up to this point, the majority of the losses have been experienced by the Iraqi people.

And we cannot weigh the life of one over another.

Soldiers, sadly enough, are paid to fight and getting brutally killed comes with that tragic piece of territory.

A 14 year old Iraqi girl who was raped after her family was killed, and then executed isn't under the same definition. Those who did this need to pay for the love of everything that represents human decency.

Again, like I said, they could have been part of a resistance movement.

Again, like I said, they could have been part of a resistance movement.

Somehow that justifies what happened here!?

I find it hilarious that you were trying at first to be a beacon of human morality in condemning such devious acts, but due to your strong anti-american feelings, you cannot show that same compassion for 3000+ men and women who have lost their lives.

My willingness to feel compassion for US soldiers was utterly effaced a long time ago by events such as Abu Ghraib. And I am "anti-American" - so? You say that like it were a bad thing.

In any case, this sort of behaviour is not out of character for US soldiers. They deserve scorn, and that is the only thing they will ever get from me.

My willingness to feel compassion for US soldiers was utterly effaced a long time ago by events such as Abu Ghraib. And I am "anti-American" - so? You say that like it were a bad thing.

In any case, this sort of behaviour is not out of character for US soldiers. They deserve scorn.

Woah woah hold up a second...woah!

My grandfather and my father are maniacle rapist killers? It's fucking on.

Woah woah hold up a second...woah!

My grandfather and my father are maniacle rapist killers? It's fucking on.

And there is a flaw in his argument. He is making broad generalizations that cannot hold up.

I would LEAVE it at that...

I wholeheartedly agree that those who commit such crimes should be held to the full extend of the law for their heinous crimes.

I also think it is highly irresponsible to imply that all soldiers are like this.

Conflict zones are replete with examples just like this from all parties involved no matter who is there or where it is happening. It is basic human nature in such situations that some people will commit such atrocities.

Using these horrible events for some politically motivated dig at the US is reprehensible.

This is a young girl who was raped and murdered – not some political opportunity for you.

My willingness to feel compassion for US soldiers was utterly effaced a long time ago by events such as Abu Ghraib. And I am "anti-American" - so? You say that like it were a bad thing.

In any case, this sort of behaviour is not out of character for US soldiers. They deserve scorn, and that is the only thing they will ever get from me.

Gang rape, or rape of any sort is out of character for US troops.

These scumbags should be stripped of their weapons and handed over to the girl's village for punishment though.

The flaw being basic fucking logic.

=Fass Logic=
All soldiers in Iraq are American
All soldiers commit horrible crimes
--------------
All American soldiers commit horrible crimes

=Real Logic=
Some soldiers in Iraq are American
Some soldiers commit horribles crimes
--------------
Some American soldiers commit horrible crimes

Again, like I said, they could have been part of a resistance movement.

They were chosen, as the article says, because there was just one man in the house.

Even if the girl was a terrorist, I didn't know the US morality had sunk low enough to allow raping people suspected of terrorism.

And, really, "they could have been part of a resistance movement." is so much CRAP it's not even DAMN FUNNY!!!

I hope the people who are wishing death upon this soldier are for the death penalty or they'd just be hypocritical.

I'd like to be the one that gets to kill this guy.

I'd like to be the one that teaches him via torture what evil is all about BEFORE you get to kill him.

Woah woah hold up a second...woah!

My grandfather and my father are maniacle rapist killers? It's fucking on.

On for you perhaps, but I couldn't really give a crap. What you'll proceed to post is the propaganda people in the US are fed with their oatmeal; "our forces do good in the world" which is just bollocks.

Even if the girl was a terrorist, I didn't know the US morality had sunk low enough to allow raping people suspected of terrorism.

And, really, "they could have been part of a resistance movement." is so much CRAP it's not even DAMN FUNNY!!!

He's not saying that that logic holds up at all. He is saying that that is the exact logic that Fass is using. Reading comprehension. Get some.

I hope the people who are wishing death upon this soldier are for the death penalty or they'd just be hypocritical.

I support the death denalty 100%, especially for guys like this.

He's not saying that that logic holds up at all. He is saying that that is the exact logic that Fass is using. Reading comprehension. Get some.

Let's wait for his reply, shall we?

On for you perhaps, but I couldn't really give a crap. What you'll proceed to post is the propaganda people in the US are fed with their oatmeal; "our forces do good in the world" which is just bollocks.

Ur funny. If you're just going to use the propaganda excuse then we're not going to get anywhere. Cause here is what happens. I tell you that you've been spoon fed everything that you've ever been told. Now were back to square one b/c of two baseless attacks. U.S. service personel are regular people who believe it or not are compassionate, good people. I know that you've never met one but you "heard" something so i guess it doesn't matter.

On for you perhaps, but I couldn't really give a crap. What you'll proceed to post is the propaganda people in the US are fed with their oatmeal; "our forces do good in the world" which is just bollocks.

I never said that you block headed dolt.

Some =/= All

To assume that it does is so frustratingly stupid it just might make my head explode. Your path of logic is so similiar to some of the soldiers you automatically condemn, in that, "All Iraqis are stupid terrorists." and "All American Soldiers are evil Hitler Machines."

I thought the world agreed blind prejudices was bad. Apparently not for you since you're against war and that makes any shit you vomit automatically rainbow and sunshine.

Gang rape, or rape of any sort is out of character for US troops.

You keep telling yourselves that, while the rest of the world sees reports of abuse come on a regular basis, while we see Guantanamo still operational, while we read about people disappeared to secret US prisons to face torture. So spare me the act, please. I'm not buying it.

So, when a numb nut like New Mitanni makes a thread about "teh_3bu1 l\/lu513mz" gang raping/executing/torturing/bombing/etc, someone, everyone pile-dives his stupid ass for being the ignorant bigot that he is. And yet, when Fass brings up a singular act of murder/rape (the perpetrator of which will likely be imprisoned or executed himself) he gets away with generalizing this behavior to ALL American Soldiers ("this sort of behavior is not out of character for US soldiers.") and using it validate his casual dismissal of 3000+ deaths.

Despite the irony of this double standard, it's the vicious cynicism of exploiting a young girl's death to justify your own brand of bigotry that is utterly disgusting.

I'm looking at your signature, and it seems to make perfect sense with what you just said.

So, when a numb nut like New Mitanni makes a thread about "teh_3bu1 l\/lu513mz" gang raping/executing/torturing/bombing/etc, someone, everyone pile-dives his stupid ass for being the ignorant bigot that he is. And yet, when Fass brings up a singular act of murder/rape (the perpetrator of which will likely be imprisoned or executed himself) he gets away with generalizing this behavior to ALL American Soldiers ("this sort of behavior is not out of character for US soldiers.") and using it validate his casual dismissal of 3000+ deaths.

Despite the irony of this double standard, it's the vicious cynicism of exploiting a young girl's death to justify your own brand of bigotry that is utterly disgusting.

So spare me the act, please. I'm not buying it.

The only thing you'll buy is you're self served agenda, and when someone posts the contrary here's exactly what you do:

1) Cover your ears
2)Yell: "Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, AMERICANS ARE EVIL. LALALALALALALALA!"
3) Rinse and repeat.

On for you perhaps, but I couldn't really give a crap. What you'll proceed to post is the propaganda people in the US are fed with their oatmeal; "our forces do good in the world" which is just bollocks.

So the propaganda you are fed with your Smörgas is all true?

You keep telling yourselves that, while the rest of the world sees reports of abuse come on a regular basis, while we see Guantanamo still operational, while we read about people disappeared to secret US prisons to face torture. So spare me the act, please. I'm not buying it.

How many americans have rotated through iraq? 400,000? 500,000? How many have been convicted of crimes? 20? 25? Thats what? .004%? .006%? Im just not buying your theory.

You keep telling yourselves that, while the rest of the world sees reports of abuse come on a regular basis, while we see Guantamo still operational, while we read about people disappeared to secret US prisons to face torture. So spare me the act, please. I'm not buying it.

What act? Am I trying to deny Abu Graib or Guantanamo? Nope. You've got evidence of one rape by US troops. I'm sure you can dig up a handful more including the incident at Okinawa. You'll find about the same rate of rape among any first world military force on foreign soil. Higher for some. Maybe lower for others. Need I remind you about French troops in the DRC running sex industries with civilian women? Does that mean that French troops routinely commit sex crimes?

So, when a numb nut like New Mitanni makes a thread about "teh_3bu1 l\/lu513mz" gang raping/executing/torturing/bombing/etc, someone, everyone pile-dives his stupid ass for being the ignorant bigot that he is. And yet, when Fass brings up a singular act of murder/rape (the perpetrator of which will likely be imprisoned or executed himself) he gets away with generalizing this behavior to ALL American Soldiers ("this sort of behavior is not out of character for US soldiers.") and using it validate his casual dismissal of 3000+ deaths.

I frankly value the lives of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians more than I do those of the aggressors' troops. Sue me.

Despite the irony of this double standard, it's the vicious cynicism of exploiting a young girl's death to justify your own brand of bigotry that is utterly disgusting.

Yeah, how dare I bring attention to what US soldiers do? Clearly the best option is to let the death of this girl go by silent and unnoticed, explained away as "collateral damage" as is the business as usual for civilians killed by US troops (or, as is the case here blamed on insurrectionists, until one of these lowlifes cracked in therapy after the insurrectionists retaliated for this girl's death).

I frankly value the lives of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians more than I do those of the aggressors' troops. Sue me.

Yeah, how dare I bring attention to what US soldiers do? Clearly the best option is to let the death of this girl go by silent and unnoticed, explained away as "collateral damage" as is the business as usual for civilians killed by US troops.

Fass, I know I'm going to get railed. You don't need to answer, but I need to ask: Why are you so angry?

How many americans have rotated through iraq? 400,000? 500,000? How many have been convicted of crimes? 20? 25? Thats what? .004%? .006%?

Precisely.

OK. Calm down.

This is a truly disgusting travesty.

On the one hand, the fact that things like this will happen is part of the reason why we should avoid wars -- especially the type of war we are mired in in Iraq. Such evil is inevitable.

On the other hand, it is not fair to tarnish the reputation of all troops with the misaction of a few. This is a criminal action. It no more reflects on all US soldiers than the average rape that occurs here in the US reflects on all Americans.

EDIT: BTW, for those that keep saying they hope this soldier "fries," he has pled guilty as part of a bargain that will keep him from getting the death penalty.

Precisely.

IDK, i believe in a little thing called innocent until proven guilty. It might just be me but your theory of justice sounds just a bit hitleresque.

Precisely.

Let's play the turn around game. Finland has a rape rate of twice the rate at which US soldiers in Iraq commit crimes. So all Finns are rapists and horrible people.

Precisely.

I'm sorry, how had he proven your point?

Unless somewhere in your perverted mind you beleive that 500,000 Americans should have been convicted of rape.

Sorry about the cynical headline, but this story is so sickening, I'm lost for words and yet again reminded why I cannot feel sad for the 3000+ US soldiers dead in Iraq when who knows how many similar stories go undiscovered.

The military doesn't make our foreign policy. They don't choose who or where to fight. And to paint all 100,000+ troops with the same brush over actions committed by monsters like those is incredibly stupid.

Fass, I know I'm going to get railed. You don't need to answer, but I need to ask: Why are you so angry?

Did you not read the story? I am incensed over it. You know me and what a staunch opposer I am to the death penalty, but while reading this... let's just say I now know how it feels to want retribution, to want heads to roll, to demand a pound of flesh!

I see the futility in it though, still. The deaths of US soldiers won't make this undone, and it most certainly won't make anyone who "supports the troops" reconsider, because in their eyes the US is somehow "good"...

*sigh* I lashed out and now I need to regain composure. Won't for a second allow myself to believe in the "goodness" of US troops, though. This one girl deserves more than that.

IDK, i believe in a little thing called innocent until proven guilty.

Tell that to the people at Guantanamo, or in the secret prisons. The US is not one to talk about presumed innocence when it has so clearly abandoned that principle.

Did you not read the story? I am incensed over it. You know me and what a staunch opposer I am do the death penalty, but while reading this... let's just say I now know how it feels to want retribution, to want heads to roll, to demand a pound of flesh!

I see the futility in it though, still. The deaths of US soldiers won't make this undone, and it most certainly won't make anyone who "supports the troops" reconsider, because in their eyes the US is somehow "good"...

*sigh* I lashed out and now I need to regain composure. Won't for a second allow myself to believe in the "goodness" of US troops, though. This one girl deserves more than that.

Don't let our facts or reason get in the way of your opinion.

The military doesn't make our foreign policy. They don't choose who or where to fight.

They choose to fight. They choose to follow orders. They are culpable.

Tell that to the people at Guantanamo, or in the secret prisons. The US is not one to talk about presumed innocence when it has so clearly abandoned that principle.

Boy, you're doing exactly what was said you do. Holding your hands over your ears and screaming "GITMO" LALALALALALA!!! Paint w/ that brush some more Fass. Let's make more generalizations about groups of people.

They choose to fight. They choose to follow orders. They are culpable.

For the actions of everyone?

Tell that to the people at Guantanamo, or in the secret prisons. The US is not one to talk about presumed innocence when it has so clearly abandoned that principle.

Have you ever heard of a POW? They are people who fought and killed americans or who helped people to do that and were caught in the act. The difference between that and what you want is that there is little reasonable doubt that these people did what they have been taken b/c of.

Did you not read the story? I am incensed over it. You know me and what a staunch opposer I am do the death penalty, but while reading this... let's just say I now know how it feels to want retribution, to want heads to roll, to demand a pound of flesh!

I see the futility in it though, still. The deaths of US soldiers won't make this undone, and it most certainly won't make anyone who "supports the troops" reconsider, because in their eyes the US is somehow "good"...

*sigh* I lashed out and now I need to regain composure. Won't for a second allow myself to believe in the "goodness" of US troops, though. This one girl deserves more than that.

You have every right and reason to be angry at this action, and you have my agreement that this war in general is wrong. But condemning the many for the actions of the few seems illogical.

For the actions of everyone?

For the action of doing the bidding of the US government most definitely.

For the action of doing the bidding of the US government most definitely.

When I hear you condemn the actions of every military in the world as well as every religious group that has individual members commit atrocities in actions you don't agree w/, then I might take you seriously. Otherwise you're just using this as fodder for your own well established hatred of anything American.

Tell that to the people at Guantanamo, or in the secret prisons. The US is not one to talk about presumed innocence when it has so clearly abandoned that principle.

East Pusna was telling that you though. While the U.S. has done such a thing it is irrelevent in trying to prove your case that: "U.S. soldiers are threevil"

Won't for a second allow myself to believe in the "goodness" of US troops, though

Because it's impossible for admist the horrors of war for their be a semblence of decency. Low and behold you take a few occurances and find the strength to judge around 500,000 men of being incapable of "goodness".

and it most certainly won't make anyone who "supports the troops" reconsider

There was never anyone here who said "haha good going America!", just one person weakly playing the Devil's Advocate in trying to justify the soldier's actions. There isn't even a strawman on this thread, it's just you fighting an invisible "support the troops" dummy, while utterly ignoring the vasts amounts of logic you disregard.

All of us wanted heads to roll, we're all pissed about this, but we're not going to judge the entire American Military based on it. That's just prejudice on a level that hasn't been seen since 1950 Mississippi.

I've got things to do. I will return.

Have you ever heard of a POW?

Have you have heard of an "enemy combatant"? That's the euphemism the US is using to deny these people POW status because as POWs they'd have rights. No, they can't be allowed to have those (forget about the human rights everyone has, POW or not) - that would interfere with keeping them indefinitely without charge, or creating military kangaroo courts for them, or torturing them.

No, your "reason" won't stand in the way of anything, really.

Lets recap. A ridiculously low % of americans in iraq have committed crimes. There is a higher % of rapists in Finland than american criminals in iraq. You are a bit of a bigot. You think that b/c .004% of a group did something that the entire group is bad. Well, the % is probably higher for islamic extremists. So why not all muslims are terrorists?

Have you have heard of an "enemy combatant"? That's the euphemism the US is using to deny these people POW status because as POWs they'd have rights. No, they can't be allowed to have those (forget about the human rights everyone has, POW or not) - that would interfere with keeping them indefinitely without charge, or creating military kangaroo courts for them, or torturing them.

Or beheading them? Or executing them? Or dragging their bodies through the streets?

I've got things to do. I will return.

Agreed, I've got better things to do like argue with a fence.

news like this makes me wish i believed in hell and eternal damnation.

When I hear you condemn the actions of every military in the world as well as every religious group that has individual members commit atrocities in actions you don't agree w/, then I might take you seriously.

You must have held your eyes pretty closed if you managed to miss my loathing for religion as well as any military. As little as I support the US troops, that's as little as I support Swedish troops in Afghanistan - another US cock-up that my government sought to get itself involved in.

your own well established hatred of anything American.

Again, you say your straw man as if I should somehow find it reflecting poorly on me.

Otherwise you're just using this as fodder for your own well established hatred of anything American.

What else would one expect from Fass? He's nothing but a flamebaiter, a flamer, and a troll, far more so than MTAE or the like could have ever hoped to be.

Have you ever heard of a POW? They are people who fought and killed americans or who helped people to do that and were caught in the act. The difference between that and what you want is that there is little reasonable doubt that these people did what they have been taken b/c of.

You really have no idea what you are talking about.

Two of the biggest legal issues regarding Gitmo detainees are (a) whether they should be treated as POWs (they are not currently) and (b) whether they are entitled to trials to determine their guilt.

Many held and abused at Gitmo and other US prisons have been shown to be entirely innocent.

You must have held your eyes pretty closed if you managed to miss my loathing for religion as well as any military. As little as I support the US troops, that's as little as I support Swedish troops in Afghanistan - another US cock-up that my government sought to get itself involved in.



Again, you say your straw man as if I should somehow find it reflecting poorly on me.

Thank you for proving my point.

Just remember Fass, what happened to the individual that called for the pound of flesh.

Or beheading them? Or executing them? Or dragging their bodies through the streets?

Honey, you miss the point of this thread. I no longer expect the US military to be better than the terrorists. I was foolish enough to do so earlier, but no more. You get your little wish. I shall now equate them.

Or beheading them? Or executing them? Or dragging their bodies through the streets?

So the US should be no better than terrorists?

I thought we were held to a higher standard.

So the US should be no better than terrorists?

I thought we were held to a higher standard.

We do have a much higher standard. None of what i said is allowed. No torture is allowed. No targetting innocent civilians. No using innocent civilians as cover. No using innocent civilians as weapons.

Thank you for proving my point.

So good am I at proving points, that I even prove your non-existent one. :)

Just remember Fass, what happened to the individual that called for the pound of flesh.

He got to lead the only super power in the world, and he for 3000 dead got to call for at least ten times that in return.

Honey, you miss the point of this thread. I no longer expect the US military to be better than the terrorists. I was foolish enough to do so earlier, but no more. You get your little wish. I shall now equate them.

Look 2 posts up.

We do have a much higher standard. None of what i said is allowed. No torture is allowed. No targetting innocent civilians. No using innocent civilians as cover. No using innocent civilians as weapons.

...and yet somehow the beheadings become justification for when the US are the ones that are barbaric. Why?

The US Military - Raping, Pillaging and Burning since 1776.

A group of soldiers that dragged an innocent man from his home and executed him (and then tried to cover it up) have been given deals where they are serving less than 2 years.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17149757/

Ahh, Fass.

The stalwart bastion of Hate and Bigotry in NSG.

We do have a much higher standard. None of what i said is allowed. No torture is allowed. No targetting innocent civilians. No using innocent civilians as cover. No using innocent civilians as weapons.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866 :rolleyes:

So good am I at proving points, that I even prove your non-existent one. :)



He got to lead the only super power in the world, and he for 3000 dead got to call for at least ten times that in return.

Oh, how cute, Fass tries to throw a red herring into the mix of US/Bush bashing. Unless you're trying to insinuate that the "JOOOS" are running the US now. Is that another brush you'ld like to paint w/?

How many americans have rotated through iraq? 400,000? 500,000? How many have been convicted of crimes? 20? 25? Thats what? .004%? .006%? Im just not buying your theory.

You simple minded fool, all you have demonstrated is that 99.996% of U.S. military rapes have gone unnoticed because of... oil, and, capitalism, and childhood obesity, and those other things that make the U.S. evil. Do you remember how Bush visited Iraq a few years ago. Do you want to know what he was doing there? Raping people. Save a little girl, kill Americans!
/sarcasm.

Fass, nobody here is supporting rape and murder. What we are protesting is your blanket accusations that all Americans are rapists and murderers that deserve to die. Just because you have linked rape and american soldiers in your mind does not mean that defense of one is defense of another. You can very easilly present valid and rational points for whether Iraq was and is a bad idea and the U.S. should pull out. What you have instead done is advocate grossly incorrect and offensive lies. This does nothing but hurts your cause.

You have shown how grossly out of touch with reality you are, lessening the validity of your opinions. You have demonstrated horrible bias against U.S. soldiers, readilly believing horrible things about them that there is no evidence before, and stating that you believe they all deserve death because of it. You have also demonstrated a misunderstanding of warfare. You defined this rape and murder of a little girl and her family as "collateral damage" when it is quite obviously intentional rape and murder. Reasonable takes on collateral damage range from "The U.S. is trying hard as they can, but mistakes are inevitable" to "The U.S. is keeping it in mind, sometimes it is impossible to attack a target without hurting or risking innocent people" to "The U.S. is not being nearly careful enough about collateral damage and this gross negligence is costing lives." Notice that "Wee! All U.S. soldiers kill civilians for pleasure, then mark the casualties as collateral damage!" didn't quite make that list. (For reference, the opposite end would be a viewpoint of "pssh, collateral damage means that they shouldn't have been attacked in the first place. All those savages deserve to die," my doesn't that sound similar to Fass's view of Americans.)

...and yet somehow the beheadings become justification for when the US are the ones that are barbaric. Why?

They're not justifications at all. I was merely trying to show fass that his illogical americans are evil theory was wrong and that there is much worse that he should be concerned about. When a few idiots commit crimes and are convicted of those crimes it is not the same as acts of terrorism. He also never addressed the higher crime rate in finland than by in americans in iraq.

Again, like I said, they could have been part of a resistance movement.

And that justifies rape how, exactly?


U.S. service personel are regular people who believe it or not are compassionate, good people. I know that you've never met one but you "heard" something so i guess it doesn't matter..

Yet they are, as a group, involved in an occupation that has led to hundreds of thousands of deaths and at least two million refugees. Therefore if killing them is what it takes to stop the occupatiuon, then that indeed is what must be done. Thats what the "horror of war" in a nutshell. There is no need to rape them or kill their families during the act, however.


Have you ever heard of a POW? They are people who fought and killed americans or who helped people to do that and were caught in the act.
..

Actually the vast majority of them weren't, as has been gone over before on this board. And they don't have POW status either.


Just remember Fass, what happened to the individual that called for the pound of flesh...

He was forcibly converted to christianity, if memory serves....


No torture is allowed. ...

Actually it is, they just changed the definition. Gonzalez memo etc and so on.

Oh, how cute, Fass tries to throw a red herring into the mix of US/Bush bashing. Unless you're trying to insinuate that the "JOOOS" are running the US now. Is that another brush you'ld like to paint w/?

What? You think that was a jab Shylock? No, sweetie. That was a jab at the chimpinator.

A group of soldiers that dragged an innocent man from his home and executed him (and then tried to cover it up) have been given deals where they are serving less than 2 years.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17149757/

that's disgusting.

Fass, nobody here is supporting rape and murder. What we are protesting is your blanket accusations that all Americans are rapists and murderers that deserve to die.

You are then protesting a figment of your own imagination.

What? You think that was a jab Shylock? No, sweetie. That was a jab at the chimpinator.

Like I said. Red Herring "sweetie".

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866 :rolleyes:

And that seriously needs to be reassessed and no one is defending it. I fail to see how this proves how all americans are evil. B/c a few ignorant CIA civilians decided to do this doesn't mean that anyone supports it.

I frankly value the lives of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians more than I do those of the aggressors' troops. Sue me.

For the sake of consistency, all life is either worthless or of equal worth. No one is innocent. I assure you, countless of those *ahem* "hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians" you value so much have committed crimes and atrocities equal and worse then that of this fallen soldier. And yet, you are perfectly willing to excuse them. Glorify them, even. Why? Because they aren’t American?

You can try and hide yourself behind Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo all you want. Comparing one atrocity to another does not justify or excuse either.

Yeah, how dare I bring attention to what US soldiers do? Clearly the best option is to let the death of this girl go by silent and unnoticed, explained away as "collateral damage" as is the business as usual for civilians killed by US troops (or, as is the case here blamed on insurrectionists, until one of these lowlifes cracked in therapy after the insurrectionists retaliated for this girl's death).

Excellent. Now go pat New Mitanni on the back for a job well done. We should all be thankful and grovel at his feet for bringing to light the horrible wrongdoings of those evil… what’s the word he uses? Moslems? Yeah, that’s it. Without his stoic endurance of being called what he is, we wouldn’t have such gems as the ones that grace our front page today.

The actions of the individual are not to be held against the many. Not all Muslims are “terrorists,” not all American soldiers are rapists. Killing Muslims does not make up for the atrocity one commits, the death of Americans does not make up for the atrocity one commits.

Let's play the turn around game. Finland has a rape rate of twice the rate at which US soldiers in Iraq commit crimes. So all Finns are rapists and horrible people.

This is actually true, so it's a bad example. ;)

*Goes to find a few cases of rape in finland and start a new thread about how evil and incapable of good finns are.

Like I said. Red Herring "sweetie".

It's not a red herring when the discussion deals with absolving or inculpating those who carry out his whims. But, sure, if you wish to hold on to your own red herring-like contortion of accusing me of anti-Semitism, then be my guest.

I was waiting for someone to say that. Poor Finish Women. :p

fix'd

This is actually true, so it's a bad example. ;)

I was waiting for someone to say that. Poor Fins. :p

I was waiting for someone to say that. Poor Fins. :p

You sympathise with rapists and other horrible human beings?

It's not a red herring when the discussion deals with absolving or inculpating those who carry out his whims. But, sure, if you wish to hold on to your own red herring-like contortion of accusing me of anti-Semitism, then be my guest.

Oh, yes, yes it is. Of course now you're saying his "whims" are going out and raping people.

And dragging that red-herring around some more isn't going to change the fact that those who call for a "pound of flesh" , like you did, are calling for retribution for retributions sake and not for any form of justice.

You sympathise with rapists and other horrible human beings?

No, I was leaning more towards all Fins NOT being horrible people BECAUSE of the rapists and other horrible human beings.

Let's play the turn around game. Finland has a rape rate of twice the rate at which US soldiers in Iraq commit crimes. So all Finns are rapists and horrible people.

This is actually true, so it's a bad example. ;)

I was talking about the bolded part.

Oh, yes, yes it is. Of course now you're saying his "whims" are going out and raping people.

I call for people to read the context of a thread. The point was the US government and the military's culpability for doing its bidding. The US's disproportionately powerful president's whims are a part of that.

And dragging that red-herring around some more isn't going to change the fact that those who call for a "pound of flesh" , like you did, are calling for retribution for retributions sake and not for any form of justice.

I also call for people actually reading posts - especially the parts where people write that they see the futility of it and that it's just emotionality eventually defeated by reason.

No, I was leaning more towards all Fins NOT being horrible people BECAUSE of the rapists and other horrible human beings.

But all Fins are rapists and horrible human beings. :confused:

:D

But all Fins are rapists and horrible human beings. :confused:

:D

See, now we're on the same page. :D

I am completely oposed to the situation in Iraq. Not so much the lies about reasons for invasion, but the complete lack of foresight the Americans showed before plunging in. Are the individual soilders resposible for this mess? Clearly not. They have been screwed over as much as anyone. Are people automatically evil because they join the army? Often people who join up may come from backgrounds that have greatly influenced them. They may feel very strongly about serving their countries. Doesn't make them evil, just; (in a few cases) misguilded.

Some of the American soilders in Iraq passionatly feel that the war was right. They weren't spewing junk about collaterol damage. They looked at the cruelty of Saddam and wanted to 'liberate' the civilans. I think one of the most moving things I heard throughout the conflict was an American officer talking about the 'remorse' he felt at the scene of a suicide bombing. He felt America's presence there or more spesifically their inability to stabalise the country and get out had caused this violence, .

Crimes are commited though out the world in every country. So some dickhead American rapes a girl in Iraq? This is somehow worse then all the millions of other girls raped over history? I'm missing the point here. Yes we should all feel sickened by this crime, but it was nothing at all to do with the war in Iraq. Maybe this guy would have raped an American 14 year old had he stayed at home. Would you have prefered this?

Being opposed to war and Americas forgein policy is not a bases for racism.

Has this thread reached the point of diminishing returns?

this story is so sickening, I'm lost for words and yet again reminded why I cannot feel sad for the 3000+ US soldiers dead in Iraq when who knows how many similar stories go undiscovered.

Hear, hear. And though I haven't read through the rest of the thread, the usual refrain - oh, it's just one or two bad apples out of thousands, don't twist the situation, blah blah blah - has no doubt already been tossed around at length.

Bullshit - bullshit to the Bush apologists, and bullshit to the rank-n-file fans of human suffering and senselessness. You're nothing less than boils on the flesh of humanity, and I look forward to the day you're all lanced with great anticipation...

Hear, hear. And though I haven't read through the rest of the thread, the usual refrain - oh, it's just one or two bad apples out of thousands, don't twist the situation, blah blah blah - has no doubt already been tossed around at length.

Bullshit - bullshit to the Bush apologists, and bullshit to the rank-n-file fans of human suffering and senselessness. You're nothing less than boils on the flesh of humanity, and I look forward to the day you're all lanced with great anticipation...

...If you think that I am a Bush apologist then I have clearly not been loud enough.

I OPPOSE THIS WAR, I OPPOSE BUSH, I OPPOSE VIOLENCE, I OPPOSE INJUSTICE, I OPPOSE BIGOTRY, I OPPOSE THIS RAPE, I OPPOSE THESE GENERALIZATIONS.

Thank you for your time and patience.

Crimes are commited though out the world in every country. So some dickhead American rapes a girl in Iraq? This is somehow worse then all the millions of other girls raped over history? I'm missing the point here. Yes we should all feel sickened by this crime, but it was nothing at all to do with the war in Iraq. Maybe this guy would have raped an American 14 year old had he stayed at home. Would you have prefered this? but then again maybe he would never have committed rape if his mind and sense of morallity had not been warped by the horrors of war and by the mindless racism against arabs that has characterised much of the vox pops that have come out of this conflict. perhaps this fucktard believed that raping an arab child was morally neutral rather than the utterly diabolical.

Being opposed to war and Americas forgein policy is not a bases for racism.
americans aren't a race. not that i have anything against americans, it's just that this final statement goes a ways to discrediting what was a fairly reasonable post.

...If you think that I am a Bush apologist then I have clearly not been loud enough.

I OPPOSE THIS WAR, I OPPOSE BUSH, I OPPOSE VIOLENCE, I OPPOSE INJUSTICE, I OPPOSE BIGOTRY, I OPPOSE THIS RAPE, I OPPOSE THESE GENERALIZATIONS.

Thank you for your time and patience.

Don't get your knickers in a twist, B - if your response is anything to go by, I'd've thought you'd've surmised easily enough that you're simply just not the droid I'm looking for.

Don't get your knickers in a twist, B - if your response is anything to go by, I'd've thought you'd've surmised easily enough that you're simply just not the droid I'm looking for.

I tend not to look at things as black and white, and I will still not condemn thousands of men and women for the actions of few.

And I don't get my knickers in a twist, I was merely making certain that there was no misunderstanding.

If they were in a twist, I would have added "!!!!!!1!1!!!1ONE!!1ELEVEN!!!ZOMFGHAXORN00B!!!" at the end.

The military doesn't make our foreign policy. They don't choose who or where to fight. And to paint all 100,000+ troops with the same brush over actions committed by monsters like those is incredibly stupid.

I fully agree most of the men women and children murdered by US troops
were killed from a distance and those troops never looked into their eyes
or heard their screams, which makes them morally superior to the rapist/murderers members of their organisations.

I also agree american military does not make foreign policy.

Where I disagree is that they do choose who and where they fight, there is always choice,
not always an easy choice, you could be imprisoned for making the right choice or punished in other ways, nonetheless there is still a choice.

Where I disagree is that they do choose who and where they fight, there is always choice,
not always an easy choice, you could be imprisoned for making the right choice or punished in other ways, nonetheless there is still a choice.

Let us create a hypothetical situation. Let's say you joined the military with the understanding that it would help you as an individual, and that it would help support your family.

Now, you're a rank-and-file soldier. You've just been ordered into a conflict which you know in your heart is wrong. However, you have taken an oath to follow the orders of your superiors. But more practically, disobeying orders could lead to a Court Martial and perhaps imprisonment, which would be nothing if you pull anything during a mission, in which case you'd be luck they don't shoot you.

You have a choice...Violate your sense of morality and fight, or disobey orders, and kiss your future, and any help you could be to your loved ones, goodbye.

What would you do?

Let us create a hypothetical situation. Let's say you joined the military with the understanding that it would help you as an individual, and that it would help support your family.

Now, you're a rank-and-file soldier. You've just been ordered into a conflict which you know in your heart is wrong. However, you have taken an oath to follow the orders of your superiors. But more practically, disobeying orders could lead to a Court Martial and perhaps imprisonment, which would be nothing if you pull anything during a mission, in which case you'd be luck they don't shoot you.

You have a choice...Violate your sense of morality and fight, or disobey orders, and kiss your future, and any help you could be to your loved ones, goodbye.

What would you do?

I pointed out it wouldn't necessarily be an easy choice.
It remains however a choice, it is not a no choice situation.

:rolleyes:

Hoooboy... Fass... C'mon, that's stupid. There are a few troops who have done horrible, terrible things, and they will be imprisoned (and if they were in a well designed prison system, rehabilitated) for their deeds. That does not mean that all U.S. troops act that way. It is idiocy and hypocrisy. Some Iraqis blow up chlorine trucks. Does that mean all Iraqis blow up chlorine trucks? No. Of course not.

Now grow up and find something better to do with your time than hate anything associated with America. Surely you have a hobby or something?

Seems breaking news says a hundred year sentance was handed down. I personally think a death sentance should be handed out.

No, but I once posted in a thread before people who were more interested in complaining about Fass's anti-american attitude than condemning a rape mentioned in the OP did. In retrospect, it was pretty spammy, so I decided to delete it.
In retrospect, I'd have to say that you were incredibly prophetic. Good job.
Shame about you deleting the post, though.

I find it hilarious that you were trying at first to be a beacon of human morality in condemning such devious acts, but due to your strong anti-american feelings, you cannot show that same compassion for 3000+ men and women who have lost their lives.

Isn't it hypocritical to say that you can't feel sad for us soldiers that have died because its possible they might have done wrong, but you will have compassion for dead civillians? Isn't it possible those civillians could have done something wrong to cause the death of american soldiers? their own countrymen? For all we know, that 14 yr old girl and her family could have been helping plant road side bombs to kill innocent US soldiers.

God how I love spin. :)
It is quite obvious that you love spin, seeing that you added your own twisted spin to the thread (see bolding). It appears that you have zero compassion for those who were brutalized, as you trip over your feeble attempts to perserve the honour of the servicemen/women of the US.

Yeah hipocrites all round......

I find it hilarious that you were trying at first to be a beacon of human morality in condemning such devious acts, but due to your strong anti-american feelings, you cannot show that same compassion for 3000+ men and women who have lost their lives.

Isn't it hypocritical to say that you can't feel sad for u.s. soldiers that have died because its possible they might have done wrong, but you will have compassion for dead civilians? Isn't it possible those civilians could have done something wrong to cause the death of american soldiers? their own countrymen? For all we know, that 14 yr old girl and her family could have been helping plant road side bombs to kill innocent US soldiers.

God how I love spin. :)

CH does seem to have a point that you do love your spin.

Occupation forces of a country that waged aggressive war to achieve
political and economic aims are not people who possibly might have
done something wrong. They are people who are doing something wrong
whether each individual amongst them is aware of it or not.
Historically and accurately they do not get to be termed innocent in any
other sense than the kind way of referring to the mentally retarded.

If this were not so then the UN authorised use of force employed
by the US and other countries to drive out the invading Iraqi forces then in
occupation of Kuwait in 1990 were equally killing potentially innocent soldiers.

Of course it can be argued that although disobeying orders in the Iraqi
army could get you and your family tortured and killed, those Iraqi
conscripts had the same choice that American soldiers have
follow immoral and illegal orders or take the other choice.
The consequences of disobedience in that case being more severe
does not remove the choice although I suppose we all acknowledge it makes it harder to choose.

I despair of the mainly american war supporters who cry about the lost lives
of american servicemen when many or even all of those lives could have
been saved if the american war supporters had opposed this despicable (2003-present) war
as could the lives all of the Iraqi men women and children who died at the time
and since as a direct result of the consequences of this crime.

It may even be ironic that horror stories that were told of the Iraqi invaders actions in Kuwait in 1990,
a great many of which were proven to be untrue end up making the cruel and violent dictatorship of Saddam Hussein
contrast favourably with what was once, a long time ago, the beacon of freedom and
democracy for the entire world, as the many horror stories told of US invaders actions in Iraq and around the globe,
keep being proven to be true.

Anti-americanism is not some mysterious occurrence
it has been well earned and quite a few Americans are aware of that.
Unfortunately they do seem to be a tiny minority.

For the rest of them, the world expected better of them, but they of
course do not care what the world thinks, except to be upset when
the world thinks badly of them, but like the moody and rebellious teenager
take not one iota of responsibility for their own behaviour and actions
and wish to live in a universe where cause and effect are eternally separate and unrelated.

Sorry about the cynical headline, but this story is so sickening, I'm lost for words and yet again reminded why I cannot feel sad for the 3000+ US soldiers dead in Iraq when who knows how many similar stories go undiscovered.

Looks like he got 100 years for it, which is more than he would get in Sweden for an identical crime.

I also love your insinuation that the 3000 dead soldiers are also rapists.

Isn't generalization great, especially when you apply it to your own bias?

Looks like he got 100 years for it, which is more than he would get in Sweden for an identical crime.

I also love your insinuation that the 3000 dead soldiers are also rapists.

Isn't generalization great, especially when you apply it to your own bias?

Here's a thought for you, and everyone else
whenever you quote the numbers of dead soldiers
quote the numbers of dead Iraqis alongside them.

Then remind yourself that those soldiers did not have to be there.
Then remind yourself that while 10% roughly of the entire population of
Iraq has left that country as refugees
not every Iraqi has the ability to do so or anywhere to go if they did.

But only if you're worried about bias of course.

Here's a thought for you, and everyone else
whenever you quote the numbers of dead soldiers
quote the numbers of dead Iraqis alongside them.

Then remind yourself that those soldiers did not have to be there.
Then remind yourself that while 10% roughly of the entire population of
Iraq has left that country as refugees
not every Iraqi has the ability to do so or anywhere to go if they did.

But only if you're worried about bias of course.

Then remind yourself that Saddam managed to kill 300,000 Shias in 3 months and you didn't object when it happened.

It's fucking disgusting that people can just shrug this kind of shit off. "Eh, rape and murder of a child... can't make an omelette without breaking eggs! Yar!"

This is just one, one of many many many reasons why the US should not only leave Iraq immediately, but never have occupied it in the first place. We are NOT helping there.

This shit pisses me off. Seriously.

Then remind yourself that Saddam managed to kill 300,000 Shias in 3 months and you didn't object when it happened.

How interesting. One, this is a tu quoque fallacy - Saddam is evil, so it's OK for US soldiers to be evil too. Two, it's a strawman - how do you know what Fass did or didn't object to? You just pulled it out of your ass.

Three - did YOU object to Saddam's murders when they happened? I bet you didn't. You don't seem like the sort of person who has respect for human life, but then if you support wars and conquest then I guess that's a given eh.

Here's a thought for you, and everyone else
whenever you quote the numbers of dead soldiers
quote the numbers of dead Iraqis alongside them.

Then remind yourself that those soldiers did not have to be there.
Then remind yourself that while 10% roughly of the entire population of
Iraq has left that country as refugees
not every Iraqi has the ability to do so or anywhere to go if they did.

But only if you're worried about bias of course.
ZING # 1 :D

How interesting. One, this is a tu quoque fallacy - Saddam is evil, so it's OK for US soldiers to be evil too. Two, it's a strawman - how do you know what Fass did or didn't object to? You just pulled it out of your ass.

Three - did YOU object to Saddam's murders when they happened? I bet you didn't. You don't seem like the sort of person who has respect for human life, but then if you support wars and conquest then I guess that's a given eh.
ZING # 2 :D

This was one man, and he should be dealt with swiftly and justly.


One? He was working with 3 other people who were also all in on the crime. 10 bucks says he gets some kind of plea bargain and a 5 week prison sentence before walking away without a scratch.

US soldiers have committed worst atrocities abroad before and have almost uniformly been pardoned for it. Yes, not all US soldiers are criminals, rapists and what have you, but those who are seem to have a tendency to get light to no punishments. Why? Because the US administration pardons them.

Long story short. The US administration throughout history is a sinkhole of slime, and slime supports slime. It should be cleansed. Preferably with fire.

One? He was working with 3 other people who were also all in on the crime. 10 bucks says he gets some kind of plea bargain and a 5 week prison sentence before walking away without a scratch.

US soldiers have committed worst atrocities abroad before and have almost uniformly been pardoned for it.

Long story short. The US administration throughout history is a sinkhole of slime, and slime supports slime. It should be cleansed. Preferably with fire.


Damn it Sirrah, I like your tone!!!

Have you ever heard of a POW? They are people who fought and killed americans or who helped people to do that and were caught in the act.

Not everyone in Gitmo was caught in arms. Some were picked up by Afghan groups just looking to make a quick buck by selling off whoever they could catch. Others were snatched from airports if I'm not mistaken. And some were handily picked by the CIA while they were going about their lives in Europe.

We do have a much higher standard. None of what i said is allowed.

To whom? Last I checked, the CIA did it. And when they don't, they outsource it.


No torture is allowed.

Again, to whom?


No targetting innocent civilians.


Maybe not recently, but it's been done before. Maybe not "Go kill them all" but more like "if you kill them, no need to make sure they're actually enemies"


No using innocent civilians as weapons.

This is more of a practicality thing I think. Civilians as weapons are generally divided into mobs which require firebrands leading them or coerced guided bomb packages. Mobs are usually ineffective against a disciplined fire team, and the latter role is filled by remote drones.

Looks like he got 100 years for it,

Eligible for parole in 10 years, due to a plea bargain. And he will be granted it, no doubt.

which is more than he would get in Sweden for an identical crime.

Guess again. (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L18142920.htm)

I also love your insinuation that the 3000 dead soldiers are also rapists.

My insinuation is that this crime is one of many, the rest going untried. My accusation, though, is that US troops are culpable for obeying US government orders and invading Iraq and implementing the torture the Bush administration has backed.

One? He was working with 3 other people who were also all in on the crime. 10 bucks says he gets some kind of plea bargain and a 5 week prison sentence before walking away without a scratch.

US soldiers have committed worst atrocities abroad before and have almost uniformly been pardoned for it. Yes, not all US soldiers are criminals, rapists and what have you, but those who are seem to have a tendency to get light to no punishments. Why? Because the US administration pardons them.

Long story short. The US administration throughout history is a sinkhole of slime, and slime supports slime. It should be cleansed. Preferably with fire.

Actually, it looks like he's being offered a ten year sentence to roll on the other guys, who knowing the way plea bargains work, will get very long sentences.

Eligible for parole in 10 years, due to a plea bargain.


If you want to get the guy to roll on the others, then you've gotta give him incentive.

Does he deserve to spend the rest of his life in jail? Absolutely. Hell, I'm even against the death penalty, and I think this ass should fry.

But would it be better for one guy to die in prison while three others walk free, or would you rather ship them all into prison for an extended, but unfortunately impermanent, period of time?

If you want to get the guy to roll on the others, then you've gotta give him incentive.

Does he deserve to spend the rest of his life in jail? Absolutely. Hell, I'm even against the death penalty, and I think this ass should fry.

But would it be better for one guy to die in prison while three others walk free, or would you rather ship them all into prison for an extended, but unfortunately impermanent, period of time?

It's okay, just inform the other inmates that they're rapists.

Actually, it looks like he's being offered a ten year sentence to roll on the other guys, who knowing the way plea bargains work, will get very long sentences.

Nah, the way things work with the US military, it'll start big, maybe some bigwigs will say "Look! We punished the miscreants!" Then about 2 weeks later when everyone else is occupied with American Idol or some other crap, they'll let them go.

Hell, the US administration has pardoned people for literally slaughtering entire villages before, so what's a bunch of rapists and murderers?

For all we know, they'll get a bunch of medals for this. And the best part is, nobody would care. Well, accept for the victim's families, but they're not the mainstream American public, so the bigwigs won't care.

It's okay, just inform the other inmates that they're rapists.

Child rapists.

It's like in the movie M by Fritz Lang. The criminals nab the kid-killer, with every intent of executing him.

Nah, the way things work with the US military, it'll start big, maybe some bigwigs will say "Look! We punished the miscreants!" Then about 2 weeks later when everyone else is occupied with American Idol or some other crap, they'll let them go.

Hell, the US administration has pardoned people for literally slaughtering entire villages before, so what's a bunch of rapists and murderers?

For all we know, they'll get a bunch of medals for this. And the best part is, nobody would care. Well, accept for the victim's families, but they're not the mainstream American public, so the bigwigs won't care.

Which incidents?

Which incidents?


I presume he refers to this particular incident.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley

In addition, nobody was ever charged over the bombing of cambodia, as far as I'm aware.

I presume he refers to this particular incident.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley

That was forty years ago, and there were many extremely questionable circumstances under which his trial was carried out.

Calley should have definitely spent the rest of his life in jail, but the procedural issues with the trial were immense.

In addition, nobody was ever charged over the bombing of cambodia, as far as I'm aware.

If you were going to charge anyone with bombing Cambodia, it would be Nixon. But, given the circumstances under which the bombings were carried out, the legality is questionable.

That was forty years ago, and there were many extremely questionable circumstances under which his trial was carried out.

If a bus driver mows down some 20 people crossing a street, he loses his license, goes to jail, and probably will never be allowed to drive again.

If a US air force pilot kills some 20 people while on a training exercise (snapped a cable car support cable with his tail fin), he gets away scott free, his license intact.

This happened only several years ago.

Incidents regarding the Abu Ghraib scandal, and subsequent convictions, indicates that the ones charged have all gotten light sentences, with some leaving early.

Here and now, these criminals are getting light sentences for hideous crimes which would have brought the death penalty. Sentences which seem to be getting lighter and lighter.

The US administration protects its soldiers. Even the criminals.

So if you want to commit a crime, make sure it's while wearing Uncle Sam's colors. He'll forgive you.

Anyone taking bets on how long it will be before U.S troops are wearing knecklaces made from ears? ;)

If a bus driver mows down some 20 people crossing a street, he loses his license, goes to jail, and probably will never be allowed to drive again.


If a US air force pilot kills some 20 people while on a training exercise (snapped a cable car support cable with his tail fin), he gets away scott free, his license intact.
Not entirely true.

The defense was able to create the perception of reasonable doubt in the trial, especially when dealing with the maps that were provided to the pilots, and the functionality of their equipment. The pilots were acquitted on the involuntary manslaughter charges, but promptly charged with Obstruction of Justice for destroying the tapes.

Both were Court-Martialled and removed from the service. The pilot received a correlating prison sentence.

This sort of accident is not unheard of, as something nearly identical occurred with the French military in 1961.

That was forty years ago, and there were many extremely questionable circumstances under which his trial was carried out.

Calley should have definitely spent the rest of his life in jail, but the procedural issues with the trial were immense.



If you were going to charge anyone with bombing Cambodia, it would be Nixon. But, given the circumstances under which the bombings were carried out, the legality is questionable.

I would have been perhaps better advised to refer to the incident itself, rather than the one convicted. One might also point at the low level of the individuals charged and convicted re the Abu Ghraib incident, and the realitively light sentences awarded against the "out sourced" contractor convicted of killing a detainee in Afghanistan. Then theres the undeclared prisoners in "black" detention centers, the consistent and similar reports of systematic torture. The whole thing comes across as a farce, broken occassionally by a flurry of scape-goating.

I was under the impression that Kissinger and Westmoreland were considered prosectutable as well re Cambodia, however I could well be mistaken

Have you have heard of an "enemy combatant"? That's the euphemism the US is using to deny these people POW status because as POWs they'd have rights. No, they can't be allowed to have those (forget about the human rights everyone has, POW or not) - that would interfere with keeping them indefinitely without charge, or creating military kangaroo courts for them, or torturing them.

What happened to any soldier(use the term loosely) or resitance fighter fighting without a uniform in any past war?


They were executed.


War is a bloody buisness, and if you get involved what do you expect to happen if you are captured, and using tactics that the Geneva convention does not sanction, Like oh i don't know, fighting without a uniform?

War is a bloody buisness, and if you get involved what do you expect to happen if you are captured, and using tactics that the Geneva convention does not sanction, Like oh i don't know, fighting without a uniform?

What about "being a random sheep herder that's rounded up by a warlord hoping to make a quick buck"? That a bloody business too? Or it's only excusable if it doesn't happen to YOU?

What about "being a random sheep herder that's rounded up by a warlord hoping to make a quick buck"? That a bloody business too? Or it's only excusable if it doesn't happen to YOU?

Take note of the fact that the number one news story in the US is Anna Nicole Smith.

I think the point that Fass was making all those posts ago is that these guys committed these crimes because they thought they would get away with them. That the culture within the US military says you can. There's just been an inquest here in the UK on a British soldier who was killed when his vehicle was attacked by US jets. The US military first denied there were any records, then refused to release the film to the coroner, and finally caved in only when the film was obtained by a newspaper and published, followed by the film being broadcast on national TV. The pilots are heard to say at one point 'Dude, we're going to jail' They haven't. If the US military fe3els it can kill allies, what chance do civilians have?

americans aren't a race. not that i have anything against americans, it's just that this final statement goes a ways to discrediting what was a fairly reasonable post.

Ok, maybe I have my definitions wrong, but 'sweeping generalisations' or 'anti americanism' didnt seem strong enough words.

War is a bloody buisness, and if you get involved what do you expect to happen if you are captured, and using tactics that the Geneva convention does not sanction, Like oh i don't know, fighting without a uniform?

Is this suppose to excuse the actions of the U.S. government? Besides, just because the other side doesn't follow the rules of the Geneva Convention, that doesn't give us the right to violate it right back. Aren't we supposed to be better then that? I guess not, instead we do everything we can to prove we are just as bad as those we are holding.

Let's play the turn around game. Finland has a rape rate of twice the rate at which US soldiers in Iraq commit crimes. So all Finns are rapists and horrible people.
The we should all be very grateful that the Finns are not in Iraq!!! (;))
...If you think that I am a Bush apologist then I have clearly not been loud enough.

I OPPOSE THIS WAR, I OPPOSE BUSH, I OPPOSE VIOLENCE, I OPPOSE INJUSTICE, I OPPOSE BIGOTRY, I OPPOSE THIS RAPE, I OPPOSE THESE GENERALIZATIONS.

Thank you for your time and patience.
I oppose your time and patience! No... wait... :p
Here's a thought for you, and everyone else
whenever you quote the numbers of dead soldiers
quote the numbers of dead Iraqis alongside them.

Then remind yourself that those soldiers did not have to be there.
Then remind yourself that while 10% roughly of the entire population of
Iraq has left that country as refugees
not every Iraqi has the ability to do so or anywhere to go if they did.

But only if you're worried about bias of course.
What are the latest figures on that one? How many civilians have been killed in Iraq after the invasion?
One? He was working with 3 other people who were also all in on the crime. 10 bucks says he gets some kind of plea bargain and a 5 week prison sentence before walking away without a scratch.

US soldiers have committed worst atrocities abroad before and have almost uniformly been pardoned for it. Yes, not all US soldiers are criminals, rapists and what have you, but those who are seem to have a tendency to get light to no punishments. Why? Because the US administration pardons them.

Long story short. The US administration throughout history is a sinkhole of slime, and slime supports slime. It should be cleansed. Preferably with fire.
Besides, it didn't "just happen", they conspired and preplanned the whole thing. [Who's in charge of those people anyway?]
Not everyone in Gitmo was caught in arms. Some were picked up by Afghan groups just looking to make a quick buck by selling off whoever they could catch. Others were snatched from airports if I'm not mistaken. And some were handily picked by the CIA while they were going about their lives in Europe.
Hear, hear!
Take note of the fact that the number one news story in the US is Anna Nicole Smith.
She's already declining very fast... Now it's Britney Spears' bald head!

Is this suppose to excuse the actions of the U.S. government? Besides, just because the other side doesn't follow the rules of the Geneva Convention, that doesn't give us the right to violate it right back. Aren't we supposed to be better then that? I guess not, instead we do everything we can to prove we are just as bad as those we are holding.

The Geneva conventions do not protect people not fighting in uniforms.

What about "being a random sheep herder that's rounded up by a warlord hoping to make a quick buck"? That a bloody business too? Or it's only excusable if it doesn't happen to YOU?

*shrugs*

The Geneva conventions do not protect people not fighting in uniforms.

Sounds like PE at school - always remember to bring your PE kit

Sounds like PE at school - always remember to bring your PE kit

One thing a lot of you don't realize is the emphasis on the Rules of Landwarfare that is drilled into Soldiers in the US army from the very beginning, constant classes on what is right and wrong, what you are allowed and not allowed to shoot at, etc. Those that violate the rules of war, the topic of the original post, can and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. With everyone I am in full agreement. They bring disgrace to themselves, their units, the United States Army and our Country as a whole.

Gitmo, well I will be the first to admit I don't fully agree with what is going on there, at the same time, I think it is in a gray area that is very open to interpertation on it. Anyone without a legal degree and an absolute understanding of what is going on there shouldn't really be flinging their opinions around.

Is it right? I don't know.

The Geneva conventions do not protect people not fighting in uniforms.

So... if we go with your argument, that now these people we are holding have no rights and that we can do whatever the hell we want to them, this means that we should mistreat them, right? Torture them, hold them indefinately even if we have no real proof and then eventually hold a "trial" in star chambers where of course, they will be found guilty. I suppose the U.S. has no need to hold itself with higher standards then those we are fighting against?

I find it hilarious that you were trying at first to be a beacon of human morality in condemning such devious acts, but due to your strong anti-american feelings, you cannot show that same compassion for 3000+ men and women who have lost their lives.

Isn't it hypocritical to say that you can't feel sad for us soldiers that have died because its possible they might have done wrong, but you will have compassion for dead civillians? Isn't it possible those civillians could have done something wrong to cause the death of american soldiers? their own countrymen? For all we know, that 14 yr old girl and her family could have been helping plant road side bombs to kill innocent US soldiers.

God how I love spin. :)

Spin makes the world go round. ;) (and the media of course)

So... if we go with your argument, that now these people we are holding have no rights and that we can do whatever the hell we want to them, this means that we should mistreat them, right? Torture them, hold them indefinately even if we have no real proof and then eventually hold a "trial" in star chambers where of course, they will be found guilty. I suppose the U.S. has no need to hold itself with higher standards then those we are fighting against?

What I'm saying is that Laws need to be passed in Congress regarding the treatment of those individuals, because that is the right way to do things. Using US courts is kinda iffy, even our National Security Courts, because there isn't really a legal precedent for such a case. It's all up in the air, is it fair? no, is it right, probably not, will bitching about it on NS do anything about it? no. Will exerting diplomatic pressure on the US about it help, yes. Will writing your congresman/woman about the situation help? It should.

So... if we go with your argument, that now these people we are holding have no rights and that we can do whatever the hell we want to them, this means that we should mistreat them, right? Torture them, hold them indefinately even if we have no real proof and then eventually hold a "trial" in star chambers where of course, they will be found guilty. I suppose the U.S. has no need to hold itself with higher standards then those we are fighting against?
So holding ourselves to higher standards justifies using bad tactics? Which by the way would raise the death toll in Iraq astrinomically.

What I'm saying is that Laws need to be passed in Congress regarding the treatment of those individuals, because that is the right way to do things. Using US courts is kinda iffy, even our National Security Courts, because there isn't really a legal precedent for such a case. It's all up in the air, is it fair? no, is it right, probably not, will bitching about it on NS do anything about it? no. Will exerting diplomatic pressure on the US about it help, yes. Will writing your congresman/woman about the situation help? It should.

I seriously doubt Steve Chabot would have any sympathy with my concerns...

The best thing to do is wish for time to speed up so the 2008 election will get here sooner. Bush leaving office is really the only chance for any change. I could wish that Congress would have a backbone and loudly protest the treatment of the prisoners in Gitmo and any other U.S. prisons but I guess asking for our politicians not to have spines made of butter is going to far.

So holding ourselves to higher standards justifies using bad tactics? Which by the way would raise the death toll in Iraq astrinomically.

I'm not sure if I'm clear what you are saying. As the country with the rights, who is claiming to bring those rights to Iraq and other places in the world, we have a responsibility to act like those same rights actually matter. Our tactics seem to make us to be hypocrites don't you think?

I seriously doubt Steve Chabot would have any sympathy with my concerns...

The best thing to do is wish for time to speed up so the 2008 election will get here sooner. Bush leaving office is really the only chance for any change. I could wish that Congress would have a backbone and loudly protest the treatment of the prisoners in Gitmo and any other U.S. prisons but I guess asking for our politicians not to have spines made of butter is going to far.

Ralph Regula may not listen to me either, though i could mention I'm an Ohio Guardsman. Though I would be better set to help the situation if I spent a rotation in GITMO, I have the right MOS for it.

My willingness to feel compassion for US soldiers was utterly effaced a long time ago by events such as Abu Ghraib. And I am "anti-American" - so? You say that like it were a bad thing.

In any case, this sort of behaviour is not out of character for US soldiers. They deserve scorn, and that is the only thing they will ever get from me.

And how is this outlook different from the "@ll |\/|0zl3|\/|z r 3b1l s0 d3y shud @ll d13" mindset that you oppose? Broad brushstrokes are a problem with any group.

What would have happened if Iraqis wanted them to be tried like Saddam? If they were hanged like Saddam, what would America do? While real troopers are trying to win the hearts & minds of the Iraqi people, these few guys are undermining their efforts. This war is all over, a hundred thousands of American troops cannot subdue an exploding nation of 26,783,383 people. I’m sure that’s not enough force to even subdue New York :D.

What I don't like about the ruling is the possibility of him getting out of prison after 10 years. This is why I think if not execution, he (and the others involved/convicted/etc) should be given multiple life terms so that there is no possibility of getting out of prison....ever.

...
Sorry about the cynical headline, but this story is so sickening, I'm lost for words and yet again reminded why I cannot feel sad for the 3000+ US soldiers dead in Iraq when who knows how many similar stories go undiscovered.

Whatever happened to that twenty something Swedish man that killed women and then drank their blood?

He confessed to the killings and told investigators he drank the women's blood and ate pieces of flesh stripped from one victim's torso, said Anders Persson, police spokesman in the central city of Gavle.
http://newsfromrussia.com/world/2006/01/19/71412.html

It sure pisses me off too, it makes me happy every time I see how many Swedish men die, killed in a car accidents, every year. The women of this world are safer for each Swede that is removed from it…

Everyone knows that twenty something Swedish men think they can do whatever the hell they want, they need to be stopped. Just imagine how many Swedish women get raped every year without the Swedish rapist getting caught!

It’s a little known fact that Sweden is a haven of crime and criminals, like a cheap motel mattress is spotted by excreted human fluids, Sweden is covered with criminals. Don’t believe me? MORE than 1 out of every 9 Swedes has to call the authorities to report a crime AND only 22% of crimes commited in Sweden ever get reported at all! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Sweden

We should build a wall around Sweden and patrol the waters with naval ships to keep those twenty something Swedish men from escaping, we need to keep them contained in their own hell-hole, we don’t want them getting out and spreading their sadistic-hedonistic terror around the rest of the world, our women and small boys need to be protected!

;)

.... I feel ill.

Why did those men do it?

Was it because they were removed from the constraints of ordered society? A 'Lord of the Flies' effect?

Or did something inside them break after shooting their first Iraqi civilian?

Sadly, this is nothing new. Rape and war have gone hand in hand for a long time.

... I think I'm going to go be sick somewhere now...

This is clearly the work of the SS Waffen Americana Division.