NationStates Jolt Archive

Stupid fucking mullahs. Recently some idiots killed the Doctor who was doing the polio campaign in the area. Clerics like these are playing with the naivety of the people who are very ignorant.

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Security&loid=8.0.388839554&par=0
PAKISTAN: POLIO EPIDEMIC VICTIMS 'MARTYRS' SAYS CLERIC


Islamabad, 22 Feb. (AKI/DAWN) - A cleric in a northern Pakistani village has opposed a foreign-funded polio vaccination campaign of the Pakistan government, urging locals not to take any preventive measures against polio "as those killed during an outbreak are martyrs". "I must tell my brothers and sisters that finding a cure (vaccination) for an epidemic before its outbreak is not allowed in Sharia ," said Maulana Fazlullah during a Friday sermon in Mam Dherai village where he is building a madrassa with local funds.

“According to Sharia, one should avoid going to the areas where an epidemic has broken out, but those who do go to such areas and get killed during an outbreak are martyrs,” he said. The provincial government has launched an anti-polio campaign to run between February 20 and 22 in selected parts of the province, but there have been reports of people refusing to get their children vaccinated.


Sermons like this are influencing people into refusing polio vaccination in many parts of the NWFP. Like Nigeria, Pakistan is another country where clergy is blocking efforts aimed at eliminating fatal diseases like polio. Cases of people misbehaving with polio vaccination staff have been reported from several areas. Recently, a surgeon, Dr Ghani Khan, was killed in a bomb blast in remote Bajaur Agency, causing postponement of the anti-polio campaign, official sources said.

Swat is one area where polio staff is facing resistance, said an official, adding that deeply religious people often resisted things involving foreigners.

Maulana Fazlullah suspects the intentions of foreign agencies involved in funding drives against fatal diseases: “I don’t understand why foreigners would think of our well-being when we see that they are killing Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq.” :rolleyes: He cited the example of a companion of the Prophet who, he said, was ‘martyred’ during an epidemic.

Maulana Fazlullah - who is the son-in-law of Maulana Sufi Mohammad, leader of the defunct Tehreek-i-Nifaz-i-Shariat Mohammadi which sought to have Sharia law replace civilian law -- has gained popularity in the villages and hamlets of the Swat province due to his religious teachings transmitted through an illegal FM radio station. His Friday open air sermons attracted large crowds.

The health department also holds clergy responsible for the refusal of the people to get their children immunised against polio in some districts of the NWFP. Last year, 15 polio cases were reported in the NWFP -- seven belonging to the tribal agencies and eight to the settled areas, officials said, adding that in 2007, a 10-month-old was detected with the polio virus in Nowshera.

“The propaganda of the clergy is causing more and more people in Swat, Bajaur, Lakki Marwat and Momand agency to refuse polio drops for their children,” said an official of the Expanded Programme for Immunisation (EPI) run by the NWFP Health Department. In the wake of the killing of surgeon Ghani Khan in Bajaur, the polio staff, mostly comprising locals, had refused to go ahead with the anti-polio campaign in the agency, sources said.

Confirming the postponement of the anti-polio drive, an official said the government was faced with multiple obstacles like staff security, inaccessible areas and presence of large number of Afghan refugees.

“Most of the eight people, detected with the polio virus in the settled areas, were of Afghan origin,” official said.

(Aki/DAWN)

Then I guess that makes FDR a martyr for vaccination?

Idiots.

That's a danger you face when you wed secular and spiritual power. Reminds me of the churches here who tell their parishioners not to let their daughters get the HPV vaccine because it will encourage promiscuity. The US version is not as immediately life-threatening, obviously, but it's based on the same flawed religious logic.

Fuck them then, they want to die, let them. In this case, their stupidity will be their judge, jury, and executioner.

Martyrs? Does that mean they're going to blow them up in public?

I'm not concerned. These issues sort themselves out eventually. :)

This is very sad.
Cases like this are allready on my mental list of 'faith making people do stupid things'. I fear that there may be a large polio outbreak and as a resault natural selection for common sense may take place.

Fuck them then, they want to die, let them. In this case, their stupidity will be their judge, jury, and executioner.

I wouldn't care if it resulted in something happening to the mullah. But the thing is ignorant and innocent young children are the victims...not the mullah.

Also, many countries have stopped vaccinating for polio since it has been totally eradicated in their parts of the world. If this spreads then it could become an epidemic.

I'm not concerned. These issues sort themselves out eventually. :)

Yeah. Natural selection. People Paralyzed by Polio don't Procreate as well.

Yeah. Natural selection. People Paralyzed by Polio don't Procreate as well.
The problem is that communicable diseases have a tendency to spread, and most people in the first world aren't vaccinated for polio anymore. Surely you can see where this is headed.
And most polio victims don't get paralyzed, they just get an upset stomach and become contagious for a few days.

Faith-based murder by omission. Like the Catholic Church not giving out condoms, and like the pharmacists refusing birth control methods or churches saying the HPV vaccine shouldn't be taken.

Faith-based murder by omission. Like the Catholic Church not giving out condoms, and like the pharmacists refusing birth control methods or churches saying the HPV vaccine shouldn't be taken.

Unfortunately such things are filtered out in the shallow mind of the general public today with "It's only an outrage if Muslims are involved" regardless of the actual religion of the offenders.

Aryavartha - I have a question for you...

Consider -

A cleric in a northern Pakistani village has opposed a foreign-funded polio vaccination campaign of the Pakistan government, urging locals not to take any preventive measures against polio "as those killed during an outbreak are martyrs". "I must tell my brothers and sisters that finding a cure (vaccination) for an epidemic before its outbreak is not allowed in Sharia ,"said Maulana Fazlullah during a Friday sermon

Is Sharia law actually codified? If it is do you know how it works?

Regards the topic...small minded irrationals. I wonder why people follow these people. Irrationals of all creeds.

The problem is that communicable diseases have a tendency to spread, and most people in the first world aren't vaccinated for polio anymore. Surely you can see where this is headed.
And most polio victims don't get paralyzed, they just get an upset stomach and become contagious for a few days.

Ok, so just make sure everyone who wants a vaccination can get one. As for the rest, it's their choice.

Ok, so just make sure everyone who wants a vaccination can get one. As for the rest, it's their choice.
It is much more efficient simply to offer vaccines to everyone who lives in areas that are still effected, and then kill all those who refuse.
They were going to get polio anyway, we just sped up the martyrdom process.

I wouldn't care if it resulted in something happening to the mullah. But the thing is ignorant and innocent young children are the victims...not the mullah.

Also, many countries have stopped vaccinating for polio since it has been totally eradicated in their parts of the world. If this spreads then it could become an epidemic.
The children are being indoctrinated in the same way as the parents have been. If they refuse to listen and it becomes dangerous for the doctors, forsake them. Quarantine the area and don't let anyone enter or leave without the vaccination.

The children are being indoctrinated in the same way as the parents have been. If they refuse to listen and it becomes dangerous for the doctors, forsake them. Quarantine the area and don't let anyone enter or leave without the vaccination.

Um...I think I am speechless.

What do you know of Polio?

po·li·o·my·e·li·tis /ˌpoʊlioʊˌmaɪəˈlaɪtɪs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[poh-lee-oh-mahy-uh-lahy-tis] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun Pathology.
an acute viral disease, usually affecting children and young adults, caused by any of three polioviruses, characterized by inflammation of the motor neurons of the brain stem and spinal cord, and resulting in a motor paralysis, followed by muscular atrophy and often permanent deformities.
Also called acute anterior poliomyelitis, infantile paralysis, polio.


Kids and young people...Your hypothesis lacks an understanding of the disease and of how isolated communities function.

Kids and young people...Your hypothesis lacks an understanding of the disease and of how isolated communities function.
I fail to see your point. Try clarifying it.

I fail to see your point. Try clarifying it.

Well you said that -

The children are being indoctrinated in the same way as the parents have been. If they refuse to listen and it becomes dangerous for the doctors, forsake them. Quarantine the area and don't let anyone enter or leave without the vaccination.

Its the children that get the disease. I wanted to make sure you knew that. I suspect you did.

Its the power thing with regard to isolated communities. The kids will never have the ability (barring a few exceptional cases most probably) to be vaccinated. They do not have a voice. Even the parents don't. In closed nit societies that are isolated the power of the religious leaders is huge.

I am shocked that you are willing to let innocent children die or live the rest of their lives as cripples. Are you really sure this is what you mean?

If we are going to have any impact on the irrationalists its by removing the power. In this case its to ensure that the kids are vaccinated. No more polio and I reckon the parents would be happy as well. Might even *shock* lessen the insularity.

I am shocked that you are willing to let innocent children die or live the rest of their lives as cripples. Are you really sure this is what you mean?

If we are going to have any impact on the irrationalists its by removing the power. In this case its to ensure that the kids are vaccinated. No more polio and I reckon the parents would be happy as well. Might even *shock* lessen the insularity.

His proposal has all the strategic hitting power of opposing Hugo Chavez by abstaining from voting.

Its the power thing with regard to isolated communities. The kids will never have the ability (barring a few exceptional cases most probably) to be vaccinated. They do not have a voice. Even the parents don't. In closed nit societies that are isolated the power of the religious leaders is huge.

I am shocked that you are willing to let innocent children die or live the rest of their lives as cripples. Are you really sure this is what you mean?
I rather let children die who will only continue this vicious cycle than doctors and nurses who could be saving other children elsewhere without threats to their lives from the people they are trying to save.

If we are going to have any impact on the irrationalists its by removing the power. In this case its to ensure that the kids are vaccinated. No more polio and I reckon the parents would be happy as well. Might even *shock* lessen the insularity.
Do you even listen to yourself or the facts? Either one proves you wrong. The religious leaders state those that die of the disease are martyrs and foreigners are trying to hurt them by giving them the vaccine and you said that the religious leaders hold the power. Why would they suddenly stop listening to those people?


His proposal has all the strategic hitting power of opposing Hugo Chavez by abstaining from voting.
My reasoning is more solid than your skull.

I rather let children die who will only continue this vicious cycle than doctors and nurses who could be saving other children elsewhere without threats to their lives from the people they are trying to save.

Then you condemn every child now and in the future.


Do you even listen to yourself or the facts? Either one proves you wrong. The religious leaders state those that die of the disease are martyrs and foreigners are trying to hurt them by giving them the vaccine and you said that the religious leaders hold the power. Why would they suddenly stop listening to those people?

I fail to see the point of your first sentence. The second makes little sense but if you are willing to read my point instead of knee jerking I think you will find it easier to comprehend my point.

It is because these people can declare the victims as martyrs that they have power in this instance. Stop the children from getting the disease and ...well ... no more martyrs from polio.

Is that not what you want? To remove the power of the irrationalists? Well...your idea basically does not work and is inhumane. I prefer to think it ill thought out.

My reasoning is more solid than your skull.

No need for that dude ;)

Aryavartha - I have a question for you...

Consider -



Is Sharia law actually codified? If it is do you know how it works?


Codified in a way but no universally agreed version. There are different schools of Sharia and sometimes varying interpretations within the same school depending upon the cleric doing the interpretation. Here is a simple explanation.

Hypothetical situation..don't take this literally.

Man wants to shave his underarm. Does not know if it is islamic. Cannot read Qur'an since he is illiterate totally or cannot read Arabic. Asks mullah. Mullah says Qur'an says "Thou shall not use a blade daily". It does not say anything specific about shaving or underarm shaving. So mullah turns to hadiths (sayings or narrations about the Prophet's life). This where it gets more murky.

There are several hadiths by several scholars and the validity varies widely. Shias discount Sunni scholar hadiths (Bukhari etc) and Sunnis do likewise. Within the same sect there are weak hadiths and strong hadiths. One may conflict with another leading to a conflict of interpretations. For ex, one may say Muhammed shaved his underarm every forty days. So the mullah will rule that you can only shave every 40 days and not daily. Another mullah will cite another hadith prohibiting man to shave at all because of blah blah and so on.

The point is the shariah is based on the hadiths which are themselves not very clearly accepted or documented and then there is the bias of the scholar and then there is the interpretation of the cleric and his bias. Suffice it to say, if you catch the mullah by his balls he will give you islamic sanction for pretty much anything you want. How do you think the various despots in muslim countries get away with the stuff they do?

It is because these people can declare the victims as martyrs that they have power in this instance. Stop the children from getting the disease and ...well ... no more martyrs from polio.
They wern't dieing in the first place, you think they just suddenly decided to start giving them polio vaccines? The mullahs started opposing the vaccines claiming it was an attempt by the west to poison them or some such.
Give it to them and we are trying to poison them, if they die, they are martyrs. See if you can work around that.

The point is the shariah is based on the hadiths which are themselves not very clearly accepted or documented and then there is the bias of the scholar and then there is the interpretation of the cleric and his bias. Suffice it to say, if you catch the mullah by his balls he will give you islamic sanction for pretty much anything you want. How do you think the various despots in muslim countries get away with the stuff they do?

Sounds a bit like Jews arguing over the Torah and the Talmud, or Christians arguing over post-Biblical creeds like the Athanasian, doesn't it? Plus ca change and all that.

Codified in a way but no universally agreed version. There are different schools of Sharia and sometimes varying interpretations within the same school depending upon the cleric doing the interpretation. Here is a simple explanation.

Hypothetical situation..don't take this literally.

Man wants to shave his underarm. Does not know if it is islamic. Cannot read Qur'an since he is illiterate totally or cannot read Arabic. Asks mullah. Mullah says Qur'an says "Thou shall not use a blade daily". It does not say anything specific about shaving or underarm shaving. So mullah turns to hadiths (sayings or narrations about the Prophet's life). This where it gets more murky.

There are several hadiths by several scholars and the validity varies widely. Shias discount Sunni scholar hadiths (Bukhari etc) and Sunnis do likewise. Within the same sect there are weak hadiths and strong hadiths. One may conflict with another leading to a conflict of interpretations. For ex, one may say Muhammed shaved his underarm every forty days. So the mullah will rule that you can only shave every 40 days and not daily. Another mullah will cite another hadith prohibiting man to shave at all because of blah blah and so on.

The point is the shariah is based on the hadiths which are themselves not very clearly accepted or documented and then there is the bias of the scholar and then there is the interpretation of the cleric and his bias. Suffice it to say, if you catch the mullah by his balls he will give you islamic sanction for pretty much anything you want. How do you think the various despots in muslim countries get away with the stuff they do?

That has got to be a clusterfuck.

I need to get my head around how one can *hypothetically* ask the same question and get two different answers. Would these scholars head sects in the sense of the Mennonites and Amish?

That has got to be a clusterfuck.

I need to get my head around how one can *hypothetically* ask the same question and get two different answers. Would these scholars head sects in the sense of the Mennonites and Amish?

What's so hard to understand? Is Jesus God or is he the Son of God or both? Ask enough different sects and you'll get half a dozen answers, all equally wacky.

Codified in a way but no universally agreed version. There are different schools of Sharia and sometimes varying interpretations within the same school depending upon the cleric doing the interpretation. Here is a simple explanation.

Hypothetical situation..don't take this literally.

Man wants to shave his underarm. Does not know if it is islamic. Cannot read Qur'an since he is illiterate totally or cannot read Arabic. Asks mullah. Mullah says Qur'an says "Thou shall not use a blade daily". It does not say anything specific about shaving or underarm shaving. So mullah turns to hadiths (sayings or narrations about the Prophet's life). This where it gets more murky.

There are several hadiths by several scholars and the validity varies widely. Shias discount Sunni scholar hadiths (Bukhari etc) and Sunnis do likewise. Within the same sect there are weak hadiths and strong hadiths. One may conflict with another leading to a conflict of interpretations. For ex, one may say Muhammed shaved his underarm every forty days. So the mullah will rule that you can only shave every 40 days and not daily. Another mullah will cite another hadith prohibiting man to shave at all because of blah blah and so on.

The point is the shariah is based on the hadiths which are themselves not very clearly accepted or documented and then there is the bias of the scholar and then there is the interpretation of the cleric and his bias. Suffice it to say, if you catch the mullah by his balls he will give you islamic sanction for pretty much anything you want. How do you think the various despots in muslim countries get away with the stuff they do?
In other words, they make it up as they go along.

They wern't dieing in the first place, you think they just suddenly decided to start giving them polio vaccines? The mullahs started opposing the vaccines claiming it was an attempt by the west to poison them or some such.
Give it to them and we are trying to poison them, if they die, they are martyrs. See if you can work around that.

Polio can be fatal as well as crippling. Do you want to live through 1900 - 1950 again?

Polio can be fatal as well as crippling. Do you want to live through 1900 - 1950 again?
Your silly logical fallacies don't hide the fact you are only seeing the filter of what I am typing in your head instead of what I am actually typing.

What's so hard to understand? Is Jesus God or is he the Son of God or both? Ask enough different sects and you'll get half a dozen answers, all equally wacky.

Nah I think I answered my own question...sort of. Its more that we are talking about an interface with political influence or power...

Polio can be fatal as well as crippling. Do you want to live through 1900 - 1950 again?

Well, being born in 1974 I missed the early twentieth centruy last time around.

Nah I think I answered my own question...sort of. Its more that we are talking about an interface with political influence or power...

Like I said on the first page, this is the problem you face when you combine spiritual and secular power.

Well, being born in 1974 I missed the early twentieth centruy last time around.

Yeah, but your parents didn't, and my dad, for one, had polio as a kid and it left him with a crippled left arm for the rest of his life.

Your silly logical fallacies don't hide the fact you are only seeing the filter of what I am typing in your head instead of what I am actually typing.

Logical fallacies...please...walk your talk...

Like I said on the first page, this is the problem you face when you combine spiritual and secular power.

Yeah...well I don't call them irrationalists for nothing.

If you have a polio outbreak you quarantine the area – anyone wanting to leave gets vaccinated. If your child has not been vaccinated, you don’t get to leave to spread the disease. If you want your child to be vaccinated, it gets vaccinated. Simple as that.

Until everyone in the area has been vaccinated, the quarantine stays in effect.
If you listen to the mullah and do not get your kid vaccinated, you simply do not get the chance to infect other areas.

This does not infringe upon your religious freedoms, but it also protects others from your own stupidity.

I'll add something else--it's this kind of story that makes me glad that the US isn't a Christian nation, that it's a secular one and that the church doesn't have any formal power, because there's nothing inherently backwards about fundamentalist Islam that isn't equally backward about fundamentalist Christianity. Give the faith-healers and snake-handlers secular power here and watch if they don't pull similar shit.

Martyrs in a kind of "they died fruitlessly when they could easily have been saved by a simple action" kind of way. In this case, the simple action is getting vaccinated instead of "not sawing down some Pagans' holy trees before being hacked to death", granted, but it's still an easily preventable death.

Those mullahs should be shot.

Strictly according to the logic of this priest, the believers should stop all basic hygiene. After all, that prevents outbreaks of such things as Cholera, Typhus and Bubonic Plague...

I'll add something else--it's this kind of story that makes me glad that the US isn't a Christian nation, that it's a secular one and that the church doesn't have any formal power, because there's nothing inherently backwards about fundamentalist Islam that isn't equally backward about fundamentalist Christianity. Give the faith-healers and snake-handlers secular power here and watch if they don't pull similar shit.

^ What he said. ^

Unfortunately, aiding and abetting a naturally-occurring epidemic is not a crime - yet. I recommend that we add this to the list of 'things that are considered terrorism'.

Meanwhile, I say we dump a few buckets of vaccine in the water supply. AFAIK, the vaccine they are using is a live, attenuated form of the virus. The vaccine itself is actually contagious - you can get vaccinated just by being near someone who has been vaccinated. The drawback is that it can occasionally cause the disease.