NationStates Jolt Archive

Lebanese army fire at Israeli planes

BEIRUT, Lebanon Wed, Feb. 21, 2007- Lebanese anti-aircraft guns fired at Israeli warplanes over southern Lebanon on Wednesday, a military spokesman said, indicating that Lebanon's army is taking a new assertiveness toward Israel.

The Israeli planes had "violated Lebanese sovereignty, posing a challenge to U.N. Resolution 1701," the spokesman said, referring to the Security Council resolution that ended Israel's 34-day war with Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon last August.

The official spoke on condition of anonymity as is customary for the Lebanese military in the absence of a formal statement.

In Jerusalem, the Israeli military declined to comment on the Lebanese statement.

The Lebanese guns did not appear to have hit any Israeli planes, but the incident was the first time that the Lebanese military had fired at Israeli aircraft since the war.

Israeli warplanes have flown reconnaissance missions over Lebanon for years, despite protests from the Beirut government.

Sources: Yahoo / AP /OccN
My2cents: maybe the Lebanese need to buy some serbian missile sytems

Good. Israel's been messing around for far too long. I'm just surprised Israel left any anti-aircraft guns behind when they went in :rolleyes:

That's what you get for flying warplanes over another nation's territory.

I agree. It is every nation's right to defend their air space.


BTW, a report in a Dutch newspaper said Israel would step up it's missions over Lebanon. The article appeared something like a week ago. Seems this was just bound to happen.

Israeli is not violating Lebanon's sovereign right; their "reconning" for those Hezbollah terrorists... it's all in the name of... oh who am I kidding. They flew into another nation's borders despite protests. They want respect, they won't get it this way, nor will their advance their cause with the Arabs.

Israeli is not violating Lebanon's sovereign right; their "reconning" for those Hezbollah terrorists... it's all in the name of... oh who am I kidding. They flew into another nation's borders despite protests. They want respect, they won't get it this way, nor will their advance their cause with the Arabs.

Israel doesn't want respect. It wants fear and unquestioning obedience.

My2cents: maybe the Lebanese need to buy some serbian missile sytems

I'd assume you mean the well developed intelligence network, developed timetables, arrogance and stupidity of NATO commanders and just sheer luck on the part of the gunners that was required to down the F-117?

I wonder what Israel/the US would say if Lebanon began flying planes over Haifa or Tel Aviv.

Well, what did Israel expect? Lebanon has every right to shoot those planes down if they cross into their airspace.

I wonder what Israel/the US would say if Lebanon began flying planes over Haifa or Tel Aviv.

They'd call it "Documented Proof of Hezbollah's Invasion Plans" and start cranking out "Lebanon 2: The Return."

Good. Israel's been messing around for far too long. I'm just surprised Israel left any anti-aircraft guns behind when they went in :rolleyes:

They didn't. Most have been supplied post-war.

They'd call it "Documented Proof of Hezbollah's Invasion Plans" and start cranking out "Lebanon 2: The Return."

More like Lebanon 5. Lebanon is a such a beautiful country. My uncle says they should put Hezb'Allah and the IDF in the middle of a desert patch nobody cares about and let them fight there and leave the Lebanese people out of it.

More like Lebanon 5. Lebanon is a such a beautiful country. My uncle says they should put Hezb'Allah and the IDF in the middle of a desert patch nobody cares about and let them fight there and leave the Lebanese people out of it.
Without any equipment or with? any outside aid allowed?

Without any equipment or with? any outside aid allowed?

We could do a democratic vote ... with bias! -

Option A:

With equipment. (Less fun)

Option B:

No equipment, except knifes, bats and brass knuckles.

Israel doesn't want respect. It wants fear and unquestioning obedience.

I'm as vocal as they come for people who oppose Israel, but even I think that's a little extreme. I think they want respect but they think that the American way of getting respect through fear is the only route.

More like Lebanon 5. Lebanon is a such a beautiful country. My uncle says they should put Hezb'Allah and the IDF in the middle of a desert patch nobody cares about and let them fight there and leave the Lebanese people out of it.

And televise it! That would take reality TV to a whole new level; think of the ratings! Kaching!

1 - drop the IDF and Hezbollah into an empty, arid desert
2 - ???
3 - PROFIT!

We could do a democratic vote ... with bias! -

Option A:

With equipment. (Less fun)

Option B:

No equipment, except knifes, bats and brass knuckles.

I like option B.

It is good to see the Lebanese Defense Forces as taking a more active more in curbing excessive sovereignty-infringing incidents, it needs to be understood that the Zionists do not recognize sovereignty of anyone but themselves, they ave avowedly stated their stance to expel all Arabs from 'Gods Land', they only recognize potential colonies.


“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

“We must expel the Arabs and take their places.”

- David Ben-Gurion, Founder of Israel.

It is good to see the Lebanese Defense Forces as taking a more active more in curbing excessive sovereignty-infringing incidents, it needs to be understood that the Zionists do not recognize sovereignty of anyone but themselves, they ave avowedly stated their stance to expel all Arabs from 'Gods Land', they only recognize potential colonies.

I see they've taken a page from the 12th Century Catholic Church and its crusades! :D

Israeli is not violating Lebanon's sovereign right; their "reconning" for those Hezbollah terrorists... it's all in the name of... oh who am I kidding. They flew into another nation's borders despite protests. They want respect, they won't get it this way, nor will their advance their cause with the Arabs.

The last time Israel flew planes over Lebanon, they dropped plenty of bombs and cluster munitions. Generally, that's an act of war. If any planes get shot down, they shouldn't complain.

The last time Israel flew planes over Lebanon, they dropped plenty of bombs and cluster munitions. Generally, that's an act of war. If any planes get shot down, they shouldn't complain.
So, what you're saying is that the sarcasm in my post wasn't obvious enough and I should use ( :rolleyes: ) to make my point? ;) Just kidding, but, yes, I agree. Israel loses its right to whine because of that.

What do you shoot jet planes down with nowadays besides SAM sites?

What do you shoot jet planes down with nowadays besides SAM sites?

Cheaper, and probably more available, anti-air artillery. You know, the stuff that never tends to work - except against low flying aircraft.

Cheaper, and probably more available, anti-air artillery. You know, the stuff that never tends to work - except against low flying aircraft.

And even then only if you have a dumb pilot

I'm not surprised. If I were Israel, I'd be pushing the limits of that cease-fire as much as possible so that I could be constantly aware of what was going on in Lebanon and if there was the possibility of further attacks from Hezballah or any of the other terror/resistance groups in the country.

I'm not surprised. If I were Israel, I'd be pushing the limits of that cease-fire as much as possible so that I could be constantly aware of what was going on in Lebanon and if there was the possibility of further attacks from Hezballah or any of the other terror/resistance groups in the country.

im·pe·ri·al·ism (ĭm-pîr'ē-ə-lĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key
n.
The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.
The system, policies, or practices of such a government.

The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.
The system, policies, or practices of such a government.

You mean like Syria did with Lebanon?

You mean like Syria did with Lebanon?

That doesn't count since Syria isn't run by the evil J00z.

That doesn't count since Syria isn't run by the evil J00z.

Way to dodge the point, care to respond to your 'Founders' quotes?

im·pe·ri·al·ism (ĭm-pîr'ē-ə-lĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key
n.
The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.
The system, policies, or practices of such a government.

Overflights is hardly the establishment of economic or political hegemony. Equally as illegal, however - yes.


f I were Israel, I'd be pushing the limits of that cease-fire as much as possible


Israel needs to put more support behind UNIFIL II. Unfortunately, UNIFIL II is not helping either - especially under the leadership of France. All France does is continue to slap the IAF and IDF by responding by further arming their men in Lebanon and introducing heavy armour. They should work together for the dismantling of Hezb'Allah and to ensure a prosperous future for Lebanon - not against each other.

Israel needs to abide by it's previous agreements as it demands Palestine and other countries to do so, unfortunately it has broken all of it's agreements and we don't hear about it.

Bullshit.
Israel has to defend itself. Did any of you guys forgotten that Hizballah attacked Israel, killed its soldiers and kidnaped others?

Now, since you poor people have forgotten, that is an act of war. And since the perpetrator is a terrorist organization that rezides in Lebanon, it is Lebanon's job to take it out.
Lebanon doesn't take it out, that makes them something that is called accomplice and accesory to whatever it is Hizballah is doing.

Lebanese army has stated that they would use their weapons against Israel, and no fucking one jumped on that.

Therefore since Israel is dealing with an enemy that obeys no rules, why would Israel obey the rules?
Israel has only one obligation: to defend its civilians. Israel has no obligations towards Lebanon... neither does it have obligations towards idiotic westerners sitting on heir asses who have no idea what is going on down there.

If someone would attack YOU, if someone would bomb your houses, what would you do?

If someone would attack YOU, if someone would bomb your houses, what would you do?

Ask the Lebanese.

Bullshit.
Israel has to defend itself. Did any of you guys forgotten that Hizballah attacked Israel, killed its soldiers and kidnaped others?

Now, since you poor people have forgotten, that is an act of war. And since the perpetrator is a terrorist organization that rezides in Lebanon, it is Lebanon's job to take it out.
Lebanon doesn't take it out, that makes them something that is called accomplice and accesory to whatever it is Hizballah is doing.

Lebanese army has stated that they would use their weapons against Israel, and no fucking one jumped on that.

Therefore since Israel is dealing with an enemy that obeys no rules, why would Israel obey the rules?
Israel has only one obligation: to defend its civilians. Israel has no obligations towards Lebanon... neither does it have obligations towards idiotic westerners sitting on heir asses who have no idea what is going on down there.

If someone would attack YOU, if someone would bomb your houses, what would you do?

I agree. And Israel could have went and blown every civy down there to hell and back. But did they? No.

Oh cry like a baby. Man fuck them Israel has every right to do whatever they want. I mean really who's gunna stop them. Sure they get shot a few times but in the end the U.S. had their back and Israel can fight alone, imagine an Israeli/U.S. coalition war, the Arabian countries would flee back and get beat once again. Why didn't any Arab country learn from the 6-day war, Israel is not a force they can handle. Jews have for to long been persecuted so I say they have every right to put fear in their hateful neighboring countries.

Israel doesn't want respect. It wants fear and unquestioning obedience.

Well this is what seems to work in the middle east. Fear and intimidation are the cornerstone for foreign policy.

Cerean;12359893']Ask the Lebonese.
I would, but terrorists and their accomplices don't quite carry any weight with me.
That, and it's easier to ask my friends in North Israel, or to just look at the bombings' traces myself.

Well this is what seems to work in the middle east. Fear and intimidation are the cornerstone for foreign policy.

'Cause everyone else is trying to Intimidate you.

They should work together for the dismantling of Hezb'Allah and to ensure a prosperous future for Lebanon - not against each other.

This would only work if they're given the green light to respond with lethal force to any unauthorized faction attempting to cross the border, be it Israel, Hezbollah or little green men.

Arguing for disarming Hezbollah while not doing anything about Israeli overflights, and occasional bombings, is just saying "Israel should be the boss of everyone"

Lebanese army has stated that they would use their weapons against Israel, and no fucking one jumped on that.

Because Israel bombed Lebanon, and appears to be considering doing that again.

Of course, you'd only care to see an Israeli empire wouldn't you?


Therefore since Israel is dealing with an enemy that obeys no rules, why would Israel obey the rules?


Thereby, there should be no rules governing any dealings with Israel then shouldn't it? Don't go crying when Israeli's get killed cause you're the one saying "no rules"

I agree. And Israel could have went and blown every civy down there to hell and back. But did they? No.

Let's see.

Bomb roads leading out of towns. Check.

Bomb cars leaving towns. Check.

Announce anyone left in the town by now is a terrorist. Check.

Bomb more people leaving towns. Check.

Bomb town. Check.

Claim anyone killed is a terrorist. Check.

Might not have killed all of them, but they certainly didn't seem to care much about killing them.

I would, but terrorists and their accomplices don't quite carry any weight with me.
That, and it's easier to ask my friends in North Israel, or to just look at the bombings' traces myself.

You should, it would be the start of any solution…

Let's see.

Bomb roads leading out of towns. Check.

Bomb cars leaving towns. Check.

Announce anyone left in the town by now is a terrorist. Check.

Bomb more people leaving towns. Check.

Bomb town. Check.

Claim anyone killed is a terrorist. Check.



IRL, are you strategic planner for the IDF?

IRL, are you strategic planner for the IDF?

Why do you ask?

Why do you ask?

Because if you aren't, that kind of thinking suggests you're cut of the stuff that would make one.....Whats your sniper vs schoolgirls policy?

You should, it would be the start of any solution…

since you didn't tell me what the "you should" regards and I am not a native english speaker... explain

since you didn't tell me what the "you should" regards and I am not a native english speaker... explain

Granted, I was a bit unclear. Let me clarify, you should care for the Lebanese people and not simply place them into the “terrorist” category. Dehumanization can only lead to suffering.

Let's see.

Bomb roads leading out of towns. Check.

Bomb cars leaving towns. Check.

Announce anyone left in the town by now is a terrorist. Check.

Bomb more people leaving towns. Check.

Bomb town. Check.

Claim anyone killed is a terrorist. Check.

Might not have killed all of them, but they certainly didn't seem to care much about killing them.

not quite, however.

Here is a different view, one that places the responsibility where it belongs.

You see, being on the victim end of a war doesn't make one right, NOR innocent.
Lebanon paid last summer for its refusal to deal with their terrorist problem, the same that, amongst other things, killed Rafik Hariri. Their lack of dealing with it is what they paid for in the last war, and they will probably continue to do so until they clean heir own yard.
Israel was attacked. Israel responded to the attack to the best of its ability, because... get this

israel, as stated before, only has one obligation: to protect Israel and its inhabitants. Israel has no obligation towards lebanon, and if Lebanon doen'r clean itself up and its lice jump on Israel, of course ISrael, being forced to stay next to it, will douse Lebanon in anti lice solution, which stings and does not feel nice, and blister its skin.
Whose fault is it?
Lebanon's, for not washing itself.

not quite, however.

Here is a different view, one that places the responsibility where it belongs.

You see, being on the victim end of a war doesn't make one right, NOR innocent.
Lebanon paid last summer for its refusal to deal with their terrorist problem, the same that, amongst other things, killed Rafik Hariri. Their lack of dealing with it is what they paid for in the last war, and they will probably continue to do so until they clean heir own yard.
Israel was attacked. Israel responded to the attack to the best of its ability, because... get this

israel, as stated before, only has one obligation: to protect Israel and its inhabitants. Israel has no obligation towards lebanon, and if Lebanon doen'r clean itself up and its lice jump on Israel, of course ISrael, being forced to stay next to it, will douse Lebanon in anti lice solution, which stings and does not feel nice, and blister its skin.
Whose fault is it?
Lebanon's, for not washing itself.

Israel as a regional power has the obligation not to cause unnecessary suffering. Moreover, I do not see how being the regional bully helps protecting the Israeli people in the long run.

Israel has many options, it chose a needless war

Lebanon's, for not washing itself.

I would say your analogy fails in the usage of chemical solution. Israel didn't use anti-lice solution, which implies that it would work for lice. A more appropriate analogy would be if Lebanon was a lice ridden animal, Israel used a rather large stick hoping to remove the lice by beating said animal.

Which of course failed and had an additional effect of making said animal angry.

Israel has to learn it can't solve guerrilla warfare with artillery, air strikes and armored column rushes. That's never worked unless you were willing to implement final solutions

Which since they like to make so much noise about it, its use by Israeli's would be so hypocritical they'd never be able to show their faces outside their homes.

Because if you aren't, that kind of thinking suggests you're cut of the stuff that would make one.....Whats your sniper vs schoolgirls policy?

Schoolgirls? What age group? Preschoolers? High school? You've got to be more specific.

Not all lebanese are even muslim, please...

Israeli people and goverment love to take things too harsh. Do you want the Lebanon to take care of Hezbollah?, help them with supplies, training and equipment. Take a lesson on your american allies, that decided it was wiser to give armament and training to the Colombian army in order to uproot drug cartels there with the "Plan Colombia". They didn't went inside Colombia and started to burn towns to take them out.

Don't you think a rather large number of lebanese want the Hezbollah out?, Including the goverment? Of course they want, they just can't, for them it's not that easy. Syria, Iran and pro fundamentalist organizations fund and support the Hezbollah. If you want to fight in the same terms, start funding and supporting lebanese organizations that oppose Hezbollah. Perhaps that policy, never attempted before by the israeli goverment, could bring some improvement.

It could also stop the anger rising against Israel in most of the arab communities. After all, you would fund them, but it would become an internal issue of the Lebanon. That is what I would call a smart policy, instead of just going there and start dropping cluster bombs all over the place, and not even getting the terrorists, because you know what?, you didn't. Hezbollah is stronger now than before.

Oh, you don't want to, that could threaten your hegemony over the area, right? This is about hegemony, not Hezbollah, or the most efficient solution.

Schoolgirls? What age group? Preschoolers? High school? You've got to be more specific.

(An eye for the details....that'll come in handy...except when shooting at the people in the blue helmets, but more of that later)

Any age, as long as they're Arab. 8-16 is the usual.

Israel as a regional power has the obligation not to cause unnecessary suffering. Moreover, I do not see how being the regional bully helps protecting the Israeli people in the long run.

Israel has many options, it chose a needless war

Israel is not a regional power. That is what you fail to acknowl;edge.
And yes, Israel has the obligation to not cause unnecessary suffering... to its citizens. Israel has no obligation towards those who attack it and plot its destruction.

(An eye for the details....that'll come in handy...except when shooting at the people in the blue helmets, but more of that later)

That's more of a problem with training. You see, someone screwed up the order for green helmets for training dummies and gave us blue ones. The ministries were really uptight with the budget, so we couldn't get some green paint. End results was using them for our dummies.

:p


Any age, as long as they're Arab. 8-16 is the usual.

Ehh, too much bad press nowadays. Less of a hassle to use visible, easy to punish expendables and quietly let out of jail later.

I would say your analogy fails in the usage of chemical solution. Israel didn't use anti-lice solution, which implies that it would work for lice. A more appropriate analogy would be if Lebanon was a lice ridden animal, Israel used a rather large stick hoping to remove the lice by beating said animal.

or keep it away. The second works.

Israel has to learn it can't solve guerrilla warfare with artillery, air strikes and armored column rushes. That's never worked unless you were willing to implement final solutions

Damn the J00z for not shooting and blowing up everything in sight.

Which since they like to make so much noise about it, its use by Israeli's would be so hypocritical they'd never be able to show their faces outside their homes.

If only I could put all of you people on a plane to Israel...it would radically change your prospectives.

Israel is not a regional power. That is what you fail to acknowl;edge.
And yes, Israel has the obligation to not cause unnecessary suffering... to its citizens. Israel has no obligation towards those who attack it and plot its destruction.

Luckily Israel is, sadly Israel fails to put this power to constructive use. You are judging for to harsh on the non-Israeli people in the region.

Oh, you don't want to, that could threaten your hegemony over the area, right? This is about hegemony, not Hezbollah, or the most efficient solution.

Heeeeeelp! Teh j00z are taking over the world! maybe we should put them in camps to make sure they don't !

or keep it away. The second works.

how the hell are you going to keep your northern neighbour away?

Countries can't move, sharp knife.

Damn the J00z for not shooting and blowing up everything in sight.

I have nothing against the hebrews, as I call them, instead of jews, or the peyorative J00z.

the goverment of Israel has a gunpowder heart, although, and I would like that policy to change, although.

If only I could put all of you people on a plane to Israel...it would radically change your prospectives.

Perspectives.

And well, I would like to visit Israel, I think it has such a rich culture. I already know what a war looks like, or what means to be afraid, although.

or keep it away. The second works.

How the hell do you keep away a geographical neighbor? Cut it down to the crust and hope he floats away? In case you hadn't noticed, Hezbollah isn't going anywhere anyways. Guerilla warfare survives conventional precisely because it's supposed to be do that. Hard to hit, highly mobile, hard to spot.

It's like the US much touted stealth stuff. Only at a strategic rather than tactical level.


Damn the J00z for not shooting and blowing up everything in sight.


Wait, wait, wait. So you support a genocide aimed at muslims? Or maybe to be more refined, pan-arabic people?


If only I could put all of you people on a plane to Israel...it would radically change your prospectives.

There are things that sometimes make me wish some clumps of people would vanish, like politicians, but there hasn't been anything to make me wish a whole demographic would die.

A holiday to Israel probably wouldn't do that either. Although I suppose I would become fairly annoyed at whoever shoots at me. I keep them at a personal level.

Heeeeeelp! Teh j00z are taking over the world! maybe we should put them in camps to make sure they don't !

The word "camps" stay engraved in your mind, right?

You're a fundamentalist, the reflection of a Hezbollah activist on a mirror.

I have spoken to less moronic israelis, at least not all are similar to you.

Thanks for supporting moderate policies, your help is greatly appreciated.

how the hell are you going to keep your northern neighbour away?

Countries can't move, sharp knife.

which is what I stated a few posts up. But it might make those thinking of joining Hizballah think twice.... or act in other directions. ( maybe just taking the analogy a bit too literally)


Yes, Hizaballah appears to have increased... which gives Israel even more reasons to be wary.



I have nothing against the hebrews, as I call them, instead of jews, or the peyorative J00z.

well, I do have the unfair advantage of being one. And we have no problem with calling ourselves Jews.

the goverment of Israel has a gunpowder heart, although, and I would like that policy to change, although.

thus making Israel an easy target. Riiiight



Perspectives.

My apologies. Non native speaker.

And well, I would like to visit Israel, I think it has such a rich culture. I already know what a war looks like, or what means to be afraid, although.

do you know what a 60 year old war looks like?

If only I could put all of you people on a plane to Israel...it would radically change your prospectives.


Yes, watching the IDF bulldoze some unrecognised Bedouin villages would change us totall around...Or maybe we could go just outside Israel to the West Bank and visit those lovely settler folk.....

Wait, wait, wait. So you support a genocide aimed at muslims? Or maybe to be more refined, pan-arabic people?

strawman.



There are things that sometimes make me wish some clumps of people would vanish, like politicians, but there hasn't been anything to make me wish a whole demographic would die.

when did I say that?

A holiday to Israel probably wouldn't do that either. Although I suppose I would become fairly annoyed at whoever shoots at me. I keep them at a personal level.

No, and never did I imply it would. However it would change your point of view on this matter.

Yes, watching the IDF bulldoze some unrecognised Bedouin villages would change us totall around...Or maybe we could go just outside Israel to the West Bank and visit those lovely settler folk.....

or you might realize how little truth is behind that hype.

Heeeeeelp! Teh j00z are taking over the world! maybe we should put them in camps to make sure they don't !

No one should be put in camps; we should all try to prevent that from happening ever again. Note, that this does not only goes for Jews, but also Arabs, or any other human being for that matter.

The word "camps" stay engraved in your mind, right?

You're a fundamentalist, the reflection of a Hezbollah activist on a mirror.

I have spoken to less moronic israelis, at least not all are similar to you.

Thanks for supporting moderate policies, your help is greatly appreciated.

I am a fundamentalist because I am not agreeing to your skewered view of the world, in which Israel is supposed to be a regional power...

and just for technicality's sake.
I am a Romanian Jew. I am not Israeli (as in I do not live in Israel nor do I plan to)

strawman.

Not quite. You see, I stated that the use of heavy artillery consistently fails to defeat guerrilla warfare unless you were willing to implement a final solution.

To this, you replied. And I quote.


Damn the J00z for not shooting and blowing up everything in sight.


To me, this interprets to mean that you would put some sort of approval to said solution. Of course it takes a bit of interpretation to see how it fits, but you understand that I was thinking in context of a reply to my statement.


when did I say that?


Following on the earlier thought, you indicated that I might change my perspective after a sabbatical in Israel, which logically follows that it would be similar to the one I interpreted above.


No, and never did I imply it would. However it would change your point of view on this matter.

In what sense? That Israel can do no wrong? I think not. I've grown up in a country that consistently tells itself and it's people that it's the best, but quite frankly, that didn't stop me from seeing that it sucked. Big time.

which is what I stated a few posts up. But it might make those thinking of joining Hizballah think twice.... or act in other directions. ( maybe just taking the analogy a bit too literally)

Well, that policy hasn't worked so far. Hezbollah is so strong now that they even tried to topple the non-Hezbollah goverment. What if Hezbollah end in power?

I propose a change of policy, not unconditional surrender. You should support Hezbollah's opposers. And there are a lot of them in Lebanon, actually.


Yes, Hizaballah appears to have increased... which gives Israel even more reasons to be wary.

And to rethink if the measures taken so far have been effective...

well, I do have the unfair advantage of being one. And we have no problem with calling ourselves Jews.

Not unfair, I would say. I could tell that for your nick the first time I saw your post.

Glad to know you haven't. I know a few who does, so I prefer hebrew.

thus making Israel an easy target. Riiiight

It is already an easy target, even with all that military hardware.


My apologies. Non native speaker.

Non native speaker here too. Just correcting, without the intention to be offensive.

do you know what a 60 year old war looks like?

No, just a 20 years old one. According to my father, after 5 years all wars reach a critical point, a..."Terminal velocity", so to speak.

do you know what a 60 year old war looks like?

Quite plush actually, with some occasional bother. But that can generally be filed with other bothers like crime.

http://www.inisrael.com/tour/telaviv/img/main_index.jpg

http://photo.net/photo/pcd1589/tel-aviv-13.4.jpg
http://lexicorient.com/e.o/ill/tel_aviv.jpg

My "skewered" view of the world?

I am completely screwed then. I didn't say Israel was a regional power.

I did :)

(An eye for the details....that'll come in handy...except when shooting at the people in the blue helmets, but more of that later)

And peopel wearing high-viz jackets identifying them as unarmed protestors.

or you might realize how little truth is behind that hype.

That settlers are a bunch of colonists on Arab land....? Not unless they put the colonies on stilts and go for a win on a technicality...As for the Bedouin, there was houses being demolished only a few weeks ago, I think.

I am a fundamentalist because I am not agreeing to your skewered view of the world, in which Israel is supposed to be a regional power...

and just for technicality's sake.
I am a Romanian Jew. I am not Israeli (as in I do not live in Israel nor do I plan to)

My "skewered" view of the world?

I am completely screwed then. I didn't say Israel was a regional power.

do you know what a 60 year old war looks like?
these 60 years of war need to come to an end don't they?

I am a fundamentalist because I am not agreeing to your skewered view of the world, in which Israel is supposed to be a regional power...

and just for technicality's sake.
I am a Romanian Jew. I am not Israeli (as in I do not live in Israel nor do I plan to)

Israel is not a world power, but it is a regional power. I do not think Israel is without threats to its existence, but it should use its current advantage to create a more permanent peace.

Lebanese army flails in the air in an exercise in futility. Film at 11.

...

When you say death to Islam in your sig. at leats make sure it is in proper Arabic...

Now the Lebanese army show how tough they are, against robotic planes :D, where were they when Israel was raping Lebanon? Where were they when the rest of the world showed any slight interest in stopping the war? All the rest of Western nations were focusing on how to safe their citizens but they didn’t want to stop the war. Hezbollah made them (Lebanese army) look like they were nothing before and they are nothing right now.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZGKrWxXEpkk

Israel is not a world power, but it is a regional power. I do not think Israel is without threats to its existence, but it should use its current advantage to create a more permanent peace.

The little 7 million people nation should use the little advantage it has in trying to create peace while the surrounding 200 milion people nations who've sworn its destruction are free and applauded when they attack it?
Ridiculous

Now the Lebanese army show how tough they are, against robotic planes :D, where were they when Israel was raping Lebanon? Where were they when the rest of the world showed any slight interest in stopping the war? All the rest of Western nations were focusing on how to safe their citizens but they didn’t want to stop the war. Hezbollah made them (Lebanese army) look like they were nothing before and they are nothing right now.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZGKrWxXEpkk

I don't like that rape reference. Unless you have been raped yourself, or are in permamnent danger of being raped (as in being female), and even then, I believe that you should reword it. Rape is far too serious of a concept to be thrown around like that.

The little 7 million people nation should use the little advantage it has in trying to create peace while the surrounding 200 milion people nations who've sworn its destruction are free and applauded when they attack it?
Ridiculous

& they might get it if Israel doesn't play fair :D. History is always in the mind frame of the Arabs, and so is patience. ;)

Very good.

After the rape of Lebanon last summer by the israelis, the Lebanese should be provided with the most sophisticated anti-aircraft weaponry available to ensure that the israeli crimes cannot be repeated.

Never again!

& they might get it if Israel doesn't play fair :D. History is always in the mind frame of the Arabs, and so is patience. ;)

lol, shouldn't both siders be expected to play fair?

I don't like that rape reference. Unless you have been raped yourself, or are in permamnent danger of being raped (as in being female), and even then, I believe that you should reword it. Rape is far too serious of a concept to be thrown around like that.

I could have said a lot worst then "rape", but that word comes close to what Israel did to Lebanon. If I changed that word for you, then someone else might not like the next word, until my message has no meaning at all (I'm sure you're not intending it that way, are you?) :D

lol, shouldn't both siders be expected to play fair?

Yes, but somehow seeing Israeli tanks and jets against stone throwers makes me :confused: but when I see suicide bombers killing Israeli citizens (time to time) that's when I agree with you. That both sides should :fluffle:

Yes, but somehow seeing Israeli tanks and jets against stone throwers makes me :confused: but when I see suicide bombers killing Israeli citizens (time to time) that's when I agree with you. That both sides should :fluffle:

stone throwers? please! haifa wasn't bombed with stones.

stone throwers? please! haifa wasn't bombed with stones.

& Beirut didn't receive flowers in return

When you say death to Islam in your sig. at leats make sure it is in proper Arabic...

You expect proper Arabic from The Artist Formerly Known as Deep Kimchi? Too much credit there.

When you say death to Islam in your sig. at leats make sure it is in proper Arabic...

The coward had now changed it to (as per systrans) "You is ignorant"

Why is this such a struggle?

Israel had every right to blow the bejeezus out of Hezbollah last year. They were defending their citizens and borders.

Lebanon has every right to blow the zazzits out of Israeli planes that cross the border, for exactly the same reason.

National Sovereignty. It's not a hard concept.

You expect proper Arabic from The Artist Formerly Known as Deep Kimchi? Too much credit there.

One day I'll figure out who this Kimchi is.

Until then, I'm assuming it is one of your puppets.

Why is this such a struggle?

Israel had every right to blow the bejeezus out of Hezbollah last year. They were defending their citizens and borders.

Lebanon has every right to blow the zazzits out of Israeli planes that cross the border, for exactly the same reason.

National Sovereignty. It's not a hard concept.

i agree

i agree

Besides, it's not like Israeli planes are really going to get shot down.:D

One day I'll figure out who this Kimchi is.

Until then, I'm assuming it is one of your puppets.

أكلت كثير خنزير means "plenty of pig ate" apparently. Theres plenty of pig, certainly.

Why did you deny a bias against muslims when it read "death to Islam"?

:d :d :d :d :d :d

National Sovereignty. It's not a hard concept.

Really? Israel has been a state for over 50 years now and they still cant seem to know where their territory ends......

One day I'll figure out who this Kimchi is.

Until then, I'm assuming it is one of your puppets.

Kimchi, Kimchi, Kimchi...

Even Bush admitted there weren't any WMDs in Iraq. Your persistent denial is comical. Someone else said it best, "Trying to OutBushevik Bush."

أكلت كثير خنزير means "plenty of pig ate" apparently. Theres plenty of pig, certainly.

Why did you deny a bias against muslims when it read "death to Islam"?

Islam is an idea. Not the same thing as Muslims, who are people.

Surely one can be biased against a religion or an idea, as many here are against Christianity - whole threads on that.

So what if I want to challenge an idea?

Islam is an idea. Not the same thing as Muslims, who are people.

Surely one can be biased against a religion or an idea, as many here are against Christianity - whole threads on that.

So what if I want to challenge an idea?

Coming from someone who openly advocated forced sterilization of people who practice said religion or idea, that's a comedic bullshit copout from you. At least your buddy New Mitanni's more open and honest about his beliefs.

Coming from someone who openly advocated forced sterilization of people who practice said religion or idea, that's a comedic bullshit copout from you. At least your buddy New Mitanni's more open and honest about his beliefs.

Coming from someone who keeps making pathetic accusations he can't prove...

Islam is an idea. Not the same thing as Muslims, who are people.?

I'm sure they'd appreciate the distinction.


Truly there is little as pathetic as the disengenous bigot.


Surely one can be biased against a religion or an idea, as many here are against Christianity - whole threads on that.

So what if I want to challenge an idea?

When you're trying to do some of it on the sly...

Anyone else who posts here have anything about "Death to (insert religon here)" in their "sig"?

By the way, does your smug little pork reference aim to offend any Jews present who keep a Kosher kitchen? Do you intend to add on a hebrew/yiddish translation for them? And do the hindus get to read of your sunday roast?

By the way, does your smug little pork reference aim to offend any Jews present who keep a Kosher kitchen? Do you intend to add on a hebrew/yiddish translation for them? And do the hindus get to read of your sunday roast?

Hmm.. So you're saying this is offensive?

http://www.cafepress.com/buy/thanksgiving/-/pv_design_prod/p_1029999.80836387/pNo_80836387/id_15080956/fpt_/opt_/c_360/pg_

That's what my sig translates to.

Hmm.. So you're saying this is offensive?

http://www.cafepress.com/buy/thanksgiving/-/pv_design_prod/p_1029999.80836387/pNo_80836387/id_15080956/fpt_/opt_/c_360/pg_

That's what my sig translates to.

Wheres the turkey, and why is it in Arabic?

Just exactly what kind of mind-set would replace a sig such as "death to Islam" with that one? What direction would you reckon that was going?

If its some taunt re religous taboos over food, wheres the hebrew/yiddish translation, and wheres the sanskrit beef version?

Really? Israel has been a state for over 50 years now and they still cant seem to know where their territory ends......


something to do with being attacked so often, ya know?

something to do with being attacked so often, ya know?

That explains trigger happy. Doesnt explain building colonies outside the borders though, and therein lies the problem.

That explains trigger happy. Doesnt explain building colonies outside the borders though, and therein lies the problem.

land won in war :) No one else gave it back, and Israel has already done too much of it

That explains trigger happy. Doesnt explain building colonies outside the borders though, and therein lies the problem.

The word would be Kahanism. Not Zionism. It's okay to have Israel. It's not okay to have Israel constantly expand at the same time other nations shrink.

Lebanese army fire at Israeli planes

BEIRUT, Lebanon Wed, Feb. 21, 2007- Lebanese anti-aircraft guns fired at Israeli warplanes over southern Lebanon on Wednesday, a military spokesman said, indicating that Lebanon's army is taking a new assertiveness toward Israel.

The Israeli planes had "violated Lebanese sovereignty, posing a challenge to U.N. Resolution 1701," the spokesman said, referring to the Security Council resolution that ended Israel's 34-day war with Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon last August.

The official spoke on condition of anonymity as is customary for the Lebanese military in the absence of a formal statement.

In Jerusalem, the Israeli military declined to comment on the Lebanese statement.

The Lebanese guns did not appear to have hit any Israeli planes, but the incident was the first time that the Lebanese military had fired at Israeli aircraft since the war.

Israeli warplanes have flown reconnaissance missions over Lebanon for years, despite protests from the Beirut government.

Sources: Yahoo / AP /OccN
My2cents: maybe the Lebanese need to buy some serbian missile sytems

pity they weren't quite so brave when the israelis were shooting back, or hezzabollah was shooting back, or anyone was shooting back really, or when there was a vague chance of people shooting back, or they faced a group of teenagers with rocks.

Why is this such a struggle?

Israel had every right to blow the bejeezus out of Hezbollah last year. They were defending their citizens and borders.

Lebanon has every right to blow the zazzits out of Israeli planes that cross the border, for exactly the same reason.

National Sovereignty. It's not a hard concept.

QFT.

Lebanon was within their right to shoot AAA fire at the Israeli planes just like Israel was justified in everything they did over the summer.

Has anyone noticed the following:

The so called "anti-ZIonists" say Israel is evil for overflying Lebanon in a situation where no one is killed. The same morons then say Israel had no right to respond when 8 of their citizens were killed, 2 were captured, and hundreds of rockets were fired into their territory. (Katyushas were fired before Israel retaliated since they were used to provide cover during the border raid._

Really? Israel has been a state for over 50 years now and they still cant seem to know where their territory ends......
Funny, neither can the Arabs who have invaded Israel and fired rockets into it for the past 6 decades.

If you're going to say something about Israel and want any credibility, then at least criticize the Arabs when they do worse.

Funny, neither can the Arabs who have invaded Israel and fired rockets into it for the past 6 decades.

If you're going to say something about Israel and want any credibility, then at least criticize the Arabs when they do worse.


:fluffle:

which never happens...

Funny, neither can the Arabs who have invaded Israel and fired rockets into it for the past 6 decades.

If you're going to say something about Israel and want any credibility, then at least criticize the Arabs when they do worse.


When Arabs grab part of what is internationally accepted as Israel and start buidling colonies, I will add them to the "Must bash" list. Also, there has to be some presumption that they arent a shower of bastards.....Preferably by Americans, though the Brits would do if we were stuck...

I think IDF is ignoring the inevitable fact that Israel constantly demands for Hamas and others to stay to their past agreements, when they themselves have broken every agreement they have made. Israel, by making the West Bank settlers, has violated international law and the sovereignty of the region through direct imperialism. As a result their settlers and citizens through direct support are legitimate militant targets. IDF also you have failed to answer the obvious point that the Founder of Israel and first PM has stated these goals:


“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

“We must expel the Arabs and take their places.”

Lebanon was within their right to shoot AAA fire at the Israeli planes just like Israel was justified in everything they did over the summer.


So you won't complain if Lebanon actually shoots down Israeli planes over their territory? Statistical probabilities aside.

So you won't complain if Lebanon actually shoots down Israeli planes over their territory? Statistical probabilities aside.

Considering that the last time Israel attacked an integrated air defense system (Syria), they completely and utterly destroyed every AAA and SAM site within 72 hours, you won't be too upset if Israel blows away the entire Lebanese air defense system if an Israeli air force plane gets shot down.

أكلت كثير خنزير means "plenty of pig ate" apparently. Theres plenty of pig, certainly.

Why did you deny a bias against muslims when it read "death to Islam"?


his sig's direct translation to English is "I ate alot of pork" akalto kateer khinzir. Death to Islam is الموت للاسلام " almawto lilislam" If you want to call someone a dumbass in arabic you say this ما أغباك يا رجل
لعنة الله و عليك"la3nato allahi wa 3alayka ya ghabey".

Have fun translating that last one.

Considering that the last time Israel attacked an integrated air defense system (Syria), they completely and utterly destroyed every AAA and SAM site within 72 hours, you won't be too upset if Israel blows away the entire Lebanese air defense system if an Israeli air force plane gets shot down.

Upset? Nah, I'd be expecting it really. Followed by more "We're righteously bombing Lebanese territory, and any attempt to stop us is part of the anti-semite conspiracy by those hating God's chosen people, blah, blah, blah"

I have a proposal. Gather the heads of Hezbollah, Hamas, Israel, and maybe some from the IDF, give them clubs and put them in a concrete prison. Whoever comes out of it alive gets bragging rights.

That's what you get for flying warplanes over another nation's territory. i agree:mp5:

So you won't complain if Lebanon actually shoots down Israeli planes over their territory? Statistical probabilities aside.

It's a risk that Israel takes. Should Lebanon get lucky and shoot down an Israeli plane, I wouldn't have too much of an issue with it because it is Lebanon's right to open fire on the aircraft in that case.

I think IDF is ignoring the inevitable fact that Israel constantly demands for Hamas and others to stay to their past agreements, when they themselves have broken every agreement they have made. Israel, by making the West Bank settlers, has violated international law and the sovereignty of the region through direct imperialism. As a result their settlers and citizens through direct support are legitimate militant targets. IDF also you have failed to answer the obvious point that the Founder of Israel and first PM has stated these goals:

Show me the documentation of that quote please. BTW, it is incorrect to describe Ben Gurion as the founder of Israel. He was the first PM, but to call him the founder would be incorrect. It would be like saying Washington was the founder of the US. He was a founding father, but not THE founder. Ben Gurion was one of many people who signed the Declaration of Independence of Israel. Golda Meir was just as much a founder of Israel as he was. It would be more accurate to describe Theodor Herzl as the founder if we are going to stick with a single man.

And as for your other points, Israel has for the most part kept its agreements. They were willing to follow the 37 Peel Commission recommendations and accepted the 47 partition plan. Both plans were rejected by the Palestinians. In 47 they opted for war over peace. After the cease fire, Egypt armed the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and they would routinely make incursions into Israel and attack the Jews living there. (Note this is long before the Occupation). It was similar in the Hula Valley where Syrians forces in the Golan would fire mortars and machine gun fire down on the farmers at the many Moshavim in the valley.

The Israeli citizens are not legitimate targets. I know that since they are Jews that you support murdering them since you are a no good anti-semite. Your comments about the Jews and banks in the Holocaust thread along with most of your posts on the topic go a long way in proving the point you are an anti-semite.

It's a risk that Israel takes. Should Lebanon get lucky and shoot down an Israeli plane, I wouldn't have too much of an issue with it because it is Lebanon's right to open fire on the aircraft in that case.

Right. So assuming that someone in Lebanon gets lucky, scores a hit, not to mention capturing the pilot (who ejected), we won't see you demanding another invasion of Lebanon to rescue the pilot?

From:http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=22&x_article=775

Media Monitors (http://www.mediamonitors.net)

An article archived on the Media Monitors Web site is filled with questionable assertions and bogus quotes (some of which were debunked in Part I.) The following quote (which also appears on the MIFTAH Web site) was attributed to Israeli Northern District Commissioner Israel Koenig, supposedly from his controversial report on Israeli Arabs in Galilee:

We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.

Source given: Cited in Lustick, Ian, Arabs in the Jewish State, University of Texas Press, Texas, 1980.

Investigation: Neither the source given (Ian Lustick's Arabs in the Jewish State) nor the actual report itself contains any mention of "terror, assassination, intimidation or land confiscation".

The Koenig Report or “memorandum” as it is sometimes referred to, was a private document of recommendations written in 1975 by civil servant Israel Koenig, the Interior Ministry’s official in charge of the Galilee, to alter the demographic balance of the region in favor of the Jews. The recommendations were rejected by then Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin, denounced by senior Cabinet ministers and rued by then foreign minister Yigal Alon who expressed great regret that the recommendations were ever written. It provoked controversy within Israel after being leaked to Al Hamishmar, the publication of Israel’s Marxist party, Mapam. Koenig’s recommendations included expanding and strengthening Israel’s Jewish presence in the Galilee, applying legal consequences to Arabs expressing hostility toward the state and Zionism, enforcing tax collection from the Arab sector, cutting family subsidies to Arabs with large families, eliminating preferential acceptance of Arabs into Israeli universities, channeling Arab students into studying the physical and natural sciences rather than humanities, and encouraging young Arabs to study abroad and emigrate. As controversial as Koenig’s proposals were at the time, however, there was absolutely no suggestion of using "terror," "assassination," "intimidation" or "land confiscations."

Summary: Fabricated quote, false source

What Ben-Gurion said while reading Israel's Proclamation of Independence:

"Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent."

Right. So assuming that someone in Lebanon gets lucky, scores a hit, not to mention capturing the pilot (who ejected), we won't see you demanding another invasion of Lebanon to rescue the pilot?

Not in a case like that. Lebanon would of course be required to treat the pilot as a POW. If Israel wants their pilot back, they'd have to negotiate with the Lebanese government. The most comparable situation to this hypothetical scenario of an Israeli pilot being downed would be when the USSR shot down the U-2 flown by Gary Powers.

The only way Israel would invade to save their people is one like in the Summer where Hezbollah invaded Israel and fired a hundred rockets to cover the attack. In that case, Israel was 100% justified in everything they did.

Israel was 100% justified in everything they did.

Wow, justifying the abject slaughter of hundreds of Lebanese civilians, and you say I am bad. We all know during the first days of the war Israel used strategic attacks against Hezbollah, but then they just got sick of it, and decided to attack civilians because engaging Hezbollah was too difficult for their 'powerful' military.

Wow, justifying the abject slaughter of hundreds of Lebanese civilians, and you say I am bad. We all know during the first days of the war Israel used strategic attacks against Hezbollah, but then they just got sick of it, and decided to attack civilians because engaging Hezbollah was too difficult for their 'powerful' military.

Given the amount of ordnance dropped by Israel, if they were really targeting civilians, the death toll would've been in the 100,000s. There were civilian casualties, but that's what happens when Hezbollah cowards out and puts their Katyusha launch sites among women and children. The legal responsibility for the deaths in those cases lies entirely on Hezbollah for using them as human shields.

Yes but Israel is a state and bound by the rules of law, while Hezbollah is not a state and thus not bound by it. In reality though the missile sites were just well hidden, most not in civilian towns and the like, but in the Southern hills, and Hezbollah was able to fire salvos and still remain hidden afterwards. There is a testimony of people in a Lebanese town (I am still looking for the link) in which Hezbollah were firing missiles and the Israeli jets were bombing around the hills (an area distinctly different from the town), after an hour or so and the IDF were getting nowhere, they instead dropped a bomb on the town and left.

And please do not plead innocent when it is clear that Israel essentially flattened certain suburbs in Beirut which has no Hezbollah connections at all.

Not in a case like that. Lebanon would of course be required to treat the pilot as a POW. If Israel wants their pilot back, they'd have to negotiate with the Lebanese government. The most comparable situation to this hypothetical scenario of an Israeli pilot being downed would be when the USSR shot down the U-2 flown by Gary Powers.

Fair enough.

So just to be thorough, you'd object to military force to retrieve said pilot?

Also, what if Lebanon demands reparations for the earlier raid as part of the return deal? Justified or not, Israel did a hell of a lot of damage to Lebanon, and fixing that is going to take a lot of manpower and money.

Fair enough.

So just to be thorough, you'd object to military force to retrieve said pilot?

Also, what if Lebanon demands reparations for the earlier raid as part of the return deal? Justified or not, Israel did a hell of a lot of damage to Lebanon, and fixing that is going to take a lot of manpower and money.

I can't speak for IDF, but I wouldn't be willing to pay any reparations. Lebanon had an obligation to prevent their territory being used as a staging ground against Israel; in failing to attempt to enforce that, they tacitly supported those attacks. This set them up as targets as much as Hezbollah was.

Fair enough.

So just to be thorough, you'd object to military force to retrieve said pilot?

Also, what if Lebanon demands reparations for the earlier raid as part of the return deal? Justified or not, Israel did a hell of a lot of damage to Lebanon, and fixing that is going to take a lot of manpower and money.

To the first question, yes I would object.

And for the second, I would say no to reparations. Lebanon brought it upon themselves by giving Hezbollah free reign.

Justified or not, Israel did a hell of a lot of damage to Lebanon, and fixing that is going to take a lot of manpower and money.


If they didn't want the damage, all they had to do was return the Israeli soldiers captured by Hezbollah.

If they didn't want the damage, all they had to do was return the Israeli soldiers captured by Hezbollah.

Something which Hezbollah is more than willing to do. They only want their men in Israeli jails back in return.

Good for the Lebanese Army. Its about time someone showed Israel that they can't just go around with their powerful military doing whatever the hell they want. If you fly warplanes into someone elses soveriegn airspace then they have a right to defend themselves. I'm happy to see Lebanon standing up for itself.

Good for the Lebanese Army. Its about time someone showed Israel that they can't just go around with their powerful military doing whatever the hell they want. If you fly warplanes into someone elses soveriegn airspace then they have a right to defend themselves. I'm happy to see Lebanon standing up for itself.

It's a largely symbolic gesture as the Lebanese don't have a hope in hell of shooting down an Israeli jet.

Yes, just a gesture. They hardly could possibly shoot it down.


Though after that Munchen conference I'm unsure about how long things will stay this way.

If they didn't want the damage, all they had to do was return the Israeli soldiers captured by Hezbollah.

When the US can be held culpable over the actions of its resident criminal groups, call me.

Otherwise, prove that Lebanon and the Hezbollah are working hand in hand. And no, you can't use "they're not doing anything about them" as an excuse. Hezbollah is powerful enough to tear Lebanon apart in a civil war.

When the US can be held culpable over the actions of its resident criminal groups, call me.

Otherwise, prove that Lebanon and the Hezbollah are working hand in hand. And no, you can't use "they're not doing anything about them" as an excuse. Hezbollah is powerful enough to tear Lebanon apart in a civil war.


Please! The assasination of Rafik Hariri is proof enough if we look at who profitted from it. Lebanon's current prime minister has already been internationally shunned for his ties to it... and that tells all, doesn't it?


And if memory serves, Israeli planes had dropped fliers in the area they were supposed to attack and warned the civilian population to withdraw, didn't they?

When fighting with an enemy that does not obey rules, expecting the otehr side to do so is unfair and idiotic.

Lebanon paid for its compliance with Hezbollah. Did anyone win? Not really. But next time, some people will be a lot more carful when attacking Israel.

As far as the record of victory goes, the IDF is the best army in the world :)

Please! The assasination of Rafik Hariri is proof enough if we look at who profitted from it. Lebanon's current prime minister has already been internationally shunned for his ties to it... and that tells all, doesn't it?


And if memory serves, Israeli planes had dropped fliers in the area they were supposed to attack and warned the civilian population to withdraw, didn't they?

When fighting with an enemy that does not obey rules, expecting the otehr side to do so is unfair and idiotic.

Lebanon paid for its compliance with Hezbollah. Did anyone win? Not really. But next time, some people will be a lot more carful when attacking Israel.

As far as the record of victory goes, the IDF is the best army in the world :)


So when the Lebanese ask the Israeli state to stop harbouring, funding and being linked with the christian falangists, what then?

So when the Lebanese ask the Israeli state to stop harbouring, funding and being linked with the christian falangists, what then?

please do elaborate on how does this comparison work, will you?

Given the amount of ordnance dropped by Israel, if they were really targeting civilians, the death toll would've been in the 100,000s. There were civilian casualties, but that's what happens when Hezbollah cowards out and puts their Katyusha launch sites among women and children. The legal responsibility for the deaths in those cases lies entirely on Hezbollah for using them as human shields.

what ridiculous shit, the same thing over and over.....Hezbollah is a civilian militia where do you expect them to be....if Israels are so brave and valiant let them land their fighters and attack helicopters where they are untouchable, climb down from their tanks and meet the Hezzbollah on the ground in the open on equal terms..."what" you say! "that would be suicidal and we're not that brave or stupid"...oh....

to the IDF an even fight is when they have a sniper weapon vs a child with a rock...

what ridiculous shit, the same thing over and over.....Hezbollah is a civilian militia where do you expect them to be....if Israels are so brave and valiant let them land their fighters and attack helicopters where they are untouchable, climb down from their tanks and meet the Hezzbollah on the ground in the open on equal terms..."what" you say! "that would be suicidal and we're not that brave or stupid"...oh....

to the IDF an even fight is when they have a sniper weapon vs a child with a rock...

In all wars fought at "equal terms" Arabs have got completely humiliated.

what ridiculous shit, the same thing over and over.....Hezbollah is a civilian militia where do you expect them to be....if Israels are so brave and valiant let them land their fighters and attack helicopters where they are untouchable, climb down from their tanks and meet the Hezzbollah on the ground in the open on equal terms..."what" you say! "that would be suicidal and we're not that brave or stupid"...oh....

to the IDF an even fight is when they have a sniper weapon vs a child with a rock...


why would they have to fight on the enemy's terms?
the IDF has the best military record any army has had in a long while. When Hizbollah attacked Israel, they knew what they were doing, and they knew what to expect.

They just considered civilian casualties a good and easy price to pay. How come none of you Nasrallah fans don't decry the loses of Israeli lives and goods? The UNPROVOKED ones mind you?

Because they're Jewish lives

Olmedreca;12365832']In all wars fought at "equal terms" Arabs have got completely humiliated.

Well, to my recollection 'equal terms' has generally meant either Israel launching surprise attacks on enemies who may or may not have been preparing to attack or Israel having a HUGE tech advantage. I saw a documentary on the Bekaa Valley where the Syrians(?) had the 'latest soviet fighters' (Old Mig-21 and Su-23's) against Israeli F-16's and F-15's (a full technological generation ahead folks!). Even in 1948 I'm pretty sure the Israelis had the latest British equipment to face off against some pretty dated gear from their enemies.

Like it's been said before. If Hizbollah had the Su-27's or the F-15's or the Abrams or the Challengers to take on the Israeli's they'd jump at the chance. Instead they have AK's and homebrew bombs and numbers enough to challenge the Lebanese government if it came to it.

How would YOU fight from their perspective hmm?

why would they have to fight on the enemy's terms?
the IDF has the best military record any army has had in a long while. When Hizbollah attacked Israel, they knew what they were doing, and they knew what to expect.

They just considered civilian casualties a good and easy price to pay. How come none of you Nasrallah fans don't decry the loses of Israeli lives and goods? The UNPROVOKED ones mind you?

Because they're Jewish lives

Or because the Israeli's have been fighting tit-for-tat since the beginning? It's just that they can affort to do it with cluster bombs and bulldozers rather than IED's and Katyushas.

Face it, the world has a soft spot for the underdogs who live in poverty and bombed-out ruins rather than the top dog who's prosperity is assured by their willingness to kill and evict anyone in the way.

And no I'm not saying the Arabs would be any better were the roles reversed. I'm just saying is all.

Or because the Israeli's have been fighting tit-for-tat since the beginning? It's just that they can affort to do it with cluster bombs and bulldozers rather than IED's and Katyushas.

money is not the only issue at hand. Remember the US army is fighting with similar stuff and losing

Face it, the world has a soft spot for the underdogs who live in poverty and bombed-out ruins rather than the top dog who's prosperity is assured by their willingness to kill and evict anyone in the way.

that explaining their love for the poor Afghans...
Israel's prosperity is assured by the Jewish worldwide community. Without it, Israel would collapse.

money is not the only issue at hand. Remember the US army is fighting with similar stuff and losing



that explaining their love for the poor Afghans...
Israel's prosperity is assured by the Jewish worldwide community. Without it, Israel would collapse.

The US army is also fighting under rules of engagement which prohibit annihilating infrastructure to inconvenience terrorists, well mostly.

If a US/UK soldier is implicated in torture or murder they go to trial (whether or not they are convicted is a seperate issue but at least justice is generally SEEN to be done). If Israeli soldiers decide to shoot at people on the daily walk to work for kicks, nothing happens.

I know people who've been out there, been in the crowds being shot at and it DOES NOT STOP.

The militias fighting in Afghanistan/Iraq are generally the ones whose ideals utterly conflict with our own. The Palestinians are just trying to get on with their lives. There's a critical difference. (and yes Hizbollah and Hamas hold to similarly repulsive ideals but the PEOPLE they fight for can be related to in the way that some nutso Mullah holed up in Saudi Arabia cannot).

Israel's prosperity is assured by the Jewish worldwide community. Without it, Israel would collapse.

They do have an export economy, you know......and aid from the US Goveernment re arms etc.....

They do have an export economy, you know......and aid from the US Goveernment re arms etc.....

Be fair, the US financial aid is not massive, Israel could probably cope without. It's the fact that the US provides arms without qualm that is the real problem (OK so the US will not provide F-22's or I think F-35's as Israel isn;t in on the JSF programme but otherwise there's not many combat systems the US will not sell IIRC).

I'm failry sure the UK would not be allowed to buy everything that Israel is (albeit we're part of various European consortiums which means we don't really get inconvenienced by it as much as Israel might be).

i know. but Israel's economy is not self sustainable yet

i know. but Israel's economy is not self sustainable yet

News to me.....

It terms of breaking international law the Zionist colonists in the West Bank are the worst terrorists of all, against all agreements with the West they continue to occupy Palestine against international law. They are racist ultranationalists who volunteered to live in such a dangerous place because they believe in all that Ben-Gurion rhetoric about a 'Greater Israel' and 'ridding Galilee of it's Arab population'.

They themselves volunteer to illegally occupy this land like imperialists, and as such are legitimate targets as they are direct participants in the occupation of Palestine. Most routinely attack West Bank Arabs and the like at the crossings, they even attack and spit at all foreigners. They are truely sickening, and deserve to be attacked.

I would, but terrorists and their accomplices don't quite carry any weight with me.

oh, you mean the terrorist who are holding their fucking government HOSTAGE? Grow up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/19/AR2006111900442.html

If Lebanon's government is allied with Hezbollah, why is Hezbollah trying to destroy it?

what ridiculous shit, the same thing over and over.....Hezbollah is a civilian militia where do you expect them to be....if Israels are so brave and valiant let them land their fighters and attack helicopters where they are untouchable, climb down from their tanks and meet the Hezzbollah on the ground in the open on equal terms..."what" you say! "that would be suicidal and we're not that brave or stupid"...oh....

to the IDF an even fight is when they have a sniper weapon vs a child with a rock...

In that case, you cannot complain about the Israelis blowing away civilians. They even have the right to do so - under the Hague conventions, anyone using human shields is responsible for any civilian casualties that result.

In that case, you cannot complain about the Israelis blowing away civilians. They even have the right to do so - under the Hague conventions, anyone using human shields is responsible for any civilian casualties that result.

In that case you cannot complain about Palestinian suicide bombers blowing away civilians. They have the right to do so-under the Hague conventions anyone using human shields is responsible for any civilian casualties that result.
...All Israeli's between 18-45 are military personal(with some exceptions) so they are in fact legitimate military targets hiding among civilians as well.

...All Israeli's between 18-45 are military personal(with some exceptions) so they are in fact legitimate military targets hiding among civilians as well.

With a comment like that I'm beginning to wonder if you are anti-semitic.

Even in 1948 I'm pretty sure the Israelis had the latest British equipment to face off against some pretty dated gear from their enemies.



ROFLMAO!!! Don't post anyone on this topic until you read up on the 47-48 war. Britain supplied Israel with nothing. Even the US put an embargo on both sides because they didn't want to get tied down there. The only nation that would supply Israel with anything was Czechoslovakia. Israel bought a few dozen Bf-109s (I know the irony in that one). Israel was in turn going against Arab Air Forces armed with Spitfires, which I would say are superior to 109s. Israel didn't have any tanks in that war while the Arabs did. Quite simply, the Israelis were going against better numbers and equipment in 48 and still managed to win.

Oh and as for surprise attacks, if you knew shit, (you obviously don't) you should know the Arabs launched an attack against Israel in 73 when most of the country was in prayer services and fasting. That didn't stop Israel from kicking Egypt and Syria's asses despite being invaded on 2 separate fronts.

Oh and in that war, Israel was flying F-4s against MiG-21s. The Israelis got a kill to loss ratio of almost 20 in the air. Compare that to US pilots in Vietnam getting 3:1 when they flew F-4s against MiG-21s. That just shows you that it isn't equipment, but rather the training of the pilots.

With a comment like that I'm beginning to wonder if you are anti-semitic.

Well technically, all able bodied Israelis are expected to serve time as part of national service so they're reservists at best.

Unless Israel stopped having compulsory national service when I wasn't looking that is.

Well technically, all able bodied Israelis are expected to serve time as part of national service so they're reservists at best.

Unless Israel stopped having compulsory national service when I wasn't looking that is.
I'm pretty sure part of one of the Hague conventions is that non-active reservists being present don't make a place a military target.

oh, you mean the terrorist who are holding their fucking government HOSTAGE? Grow up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/19/AR2006111900442.html

If Lebanon's government is allied with Hezbollah, why is Hezbollah trying to destroy it?

my bet? they want more power than they already have over Lebanon. That does not absolve the Lebanese government of its duty to clean up its own house tho

I was never arguing that it was. I was arguing that the Lebanese government is incapable of cleaning up its own house, as evidenced by their inability to ensure its own safety and sovereignty.

If they were incapable of doing what they were required to do, then they could've asked NATO, the UN, or most EU nations to help. They had a chance to get help in and didn't do anything about it.

That does not absolve the Lebanese government of its duty to clean up its own house tho

I was never arguing that it was. I was arguing that the Lebanese government is incapable of cleaning up its own house, as evidenced by their inability to ensure its own safety and sovereignty.

I was never arguing that it was. I was arguing that the Lebanese government is incapable of cleaning up its own house, as evidenced by their inability to ensure its own safety and sovereignty.

incompetence is never a good defence ya know?

incompetence is never a good defence ya know?

It is when your defending from an accomplice charge. If your son goes on a shooting spree your not an accomplice to murder just because you were incapable of stopping him.

It is when your defending from an accomplice charge. If your son goes on a shooting spree your not an accomplice to murder just because you were incapable of stopping him.


If he does it from your own house and you have knowledge of it, yes

If he does it from your own house and you have knowledge of it, yes

No. Being an accomplice means AIDING in the commission of a crime. Your definition makes victims of crimes into accomplices, Israel would be an accomplice to Hezbollah under your definition.

ummm, no

if someone comits a crime with my knowledge and I tolerate it and give him the opportunity to do it from my own house, failure to report it or to stop it is a form of complicity.

The Lebanese Government is responsible for what happens in its country. It has failed to take any measure against Hizballah... that is incompetence of the worst kind. BY failing to act they have put their population in danger.

The Lebanese Government is responsible for what happens in its country. It has failed to take any measure against Hizballah... that is incompetence of the worst kind. BY failing to act they have put their population in danger.

Actually, while not being anti-Israel, I still start to feel it would be better for everyone if it was gone. At least population wouldn't be bombed down if their government fails to perform the chores Israel gives them.

The Lebanese Government is responsible for what happens in its country. It has failed to take any measure against Hizballah... that is incompetence of the worst kind. BY failing to act they have put their population in danger.

From what I can understand of the situation, Hezbollah is quite capable of fully wrecking Lebanon if they and the government fought each other full force.

Your argument would make security guards accomplices during criminal hostage situations when they surrender due to greater risk of harm to nearby people rather than fighting to the death.

They'd call it "Documented Proof of Hezbollah's Invasion Plans" and start cranking out "Lebanon 2: The Return."

Lebanon 3, actually.

I suspect Israel will be fighting wars against Lebanon until they actually win one. :D

In that case, you cannot complain about the Israelis blowing away civilians. They even have the right to do so - under the Hague conventions, anyone using human shields is responsible for any civilian casualties that result.

Shields like these?
"The soldiers hid behind our backs as they pushed us forward," (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,867343,00.html)

With a comment like that I'm beginning to wonder if you are anti-semitic.

well that would be normal for you....you call anyone critical of Israel anti-semitic

Shields like these?
"The soldiers hid behind our backs as they pushed us forward," (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,867343,00.html)

It's situations like these that simply disallow me from giving the Israeli's any slack. And it's why I'd be quite content if they, and the surrounding regions, vanished.

But to be a bit more discerning, the IDF, Hezbollah, Hamas and whatever half dozen militant groups in that region vanishing would do just fine.

oh look, a completely unverified story in a known anti semitic media! Amazing!

well that would be normal for you....you call anyone critical of Israel anti-semitic


Out of interest. What would he call Jews who hate the idea of Israel and wish it's destruction? I.e very conservative orthodox jews who see Israel as an abomination because it was manmade and not by the Messiah as was foretold? Also anti-semite, even though they are probably more religious then him?

Hate of Israel =/= Hate of Jews.

oh look, a completely unverified story in a known anti semitic media! Amazing!

Not that it matters very much. Even if this is completely false, there's enough material out there on Israel's behaviour that's been verified to make it not quite that caring nation you try to make it out to be.

oh look, a completely unverified story in a known anti semitic media! Amazing!

You do know that whats described there was official policy for over 30 years, don't you?

What about
"After seizing control of the buildings, the soldiers held six residents, two of them minors, on the staircases of the two buildings, at the entrance to rooms in which the soldiers positioned themselves, for some twelve hours." (http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp)

And the Guardian is known to be critical of Israel, not for anti-semitism.

if someone comits a crime with my knowledge and I tolerate it and give him the opportunity to do it from my own house, failure to report it or to stop it is a form of complicity.
You changed your definition, originally it was if you were in the vicinity of any crime, knew it was happening while it was being committed, and failed to stop it.

The Lebanese Government is responsible for what happens in its country. It has failed to take any measure against Hizballah... that is incompetence of the worst kind. BY failing to act they have put their population in danger.

prove it.

oh look, a completely unverified story in a known anti semitic media! Amazing!
Oh yes... the Guardian. Might as well be called "Der Angriff", right?

:rolleyes:

the Guardian is known to be critical of Israel, not for anti-semitism.

That distinction lies quite outside the programming parameters for rank-and-file Pro-Israeli mouthpieces.

Don't approve of Israeli policy? Might as well be Hitler reincarnate, in certain poster's eyes.

Britain supplied Israel with nothing.
Close to nothing - but not actually nothing. We gave Israel 3 bombers, which did provide a little air support, but yes, we should have done more, really - although we did give the Israelis some of our best officers to help them.
The only nation that would supply Israel with anything was Czechoslovakia. Israel bought a few dozen Bf-109s (I know the irony in that one).
They were actually a cheap knock-off version of the Bf-109, the Avia S-199, which was similar in most ways to the Bf-109, in terms of weaponary, but the flight gear was absolute crap, the syncronisation systems for the guns didn't work and was about as manouverable as a flying brick, due to it having a Junker Jumo 211 (heavy bomber) engine rather than a fighter engine.

On the other hand, the Israelis did also have a few Spitfires, which lead to confusion when they engaged the Egyptian Air Forces' own Spitfires.
Israel was in turn going against Arab Air Forces armed with Spitfires, which I would say are superior to 109s.
Quite true indeed.
Israel didn't have any tanks in that war while the Arabs did. Quite simply, the Israelis were going against better numbers and equipment in 48 and still managed to win.
Ooh I don't know that they were up against better numbers - they fielded more combatants than the Arabs right through the conflict, and they were generally more battle-hardened, too. Their equipment was awful to start with, true, but the same is true of the Arab states, due to the fact that after the 36-39 uprising, their weapons were largely taken away by the UK.

About damn time, Israel thinks itself all-mighty, they're a bunch of pussies, because of them the poor people of Israel suffers, i don't like Hezbollah, but i dislike more Israel (not the jews, not the civilians). It's easy for them to fight a war against poor countries, but they'd never stand a chance if the arabs as a whole, decided to eliminate them.

In that case you cannot complain about Palestinian suicide bombers blowing away civilians. They have the right to do so-under the Hague conventions anyone using human shields is responsible for any civilian casualties that result.
...All Israeli's between 18-45 are military personal(with some exceptions) so they are in fact legitimate military targets hiding among civilians as well.

No. Non-active military personnel (milittary personnel not in uniform nor acting as soldiers) are NOT legitimate targets. They are, in return, expected to don uniforms and identification before taking ANY action against opposing military forces, or to either surrender themselves for internment or withdraw from the area of battle until such times as uniforms and identification may be obtained.

Suidcide bombers have very rarely targetted military targets (occasionally, checkpoints or police stations). Even then, their actions were not legitimate acts of war, because they were not in uniform or otherwise easily identifiable as soldiers. By the conventions, they were merely terrorist scum.

About damn time, Israel thinks itself all-mighty, they're a bunch of pussies, because of them the poor people of Israel suffers, i don't like Hezbollah, but i dislike more Israel (not the jews, not the civilians). It's easy for them to fight a war against poor countries, but they'd never stand a chance if the arabs as a whole, decided to eliminate them.

Actually, the Arabs tried that (three times, IIRC). Arab butt got kicked from Israel to the Persian Gulf...

Shields like these?
"The soldiers hid behind our backs as they pushed us forward," (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,867343,00.html)

Hey, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Had any of those people been harmed, it would have been the IDF's fault and responsibility.

Hey, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Had any of those people been harmed, it would have been the IDF's fault and responsibility.


Entirely true. Yet when the phrase "human shield" is mentioned, its not usually in connection with the IDF, despite the fact this was standard legal practice for over 30 years. I certainly was unaware of it, as I suspect many still are.