NationStates Jolt Archive


Tony Blair responds to e-petition on road charges

Shreetolv
21-02-2007, 14:51
E-petition: Response from the Prime Minister
The e-petition asking the Prime Minister to "Scrap the planned vehicle tracking and road pricing policy" has now closed. This is a response from the Prime Minister, Tony Blair.

Thank you for taking the time to register your views about road pricing on the Downing Street website.

This petition was posted shortly before we published the Eddington Study, an independent review of Britain's transport network. This study set out long-term challenges and options for our transport network.

It made clear that congestion is a major problem to which there is no easy answer. One aspect of the study was highlighting how road pricing could provide a solution to these problems and that advances in technology put these plans within our reach. Of course it would be ten years or more before any national scheme was technologically, never mind politically, feasible.

That is the backdrop to this issue. As my response makes clear, this is not about imposing "stealth taxes" or introducing "Big Brother" surveillance. This is a complex subject, which cannot be resolved without a thorough investigation of all the options, combined with a full and frank debate about the choices we face at a local and national level. That's why I hope this detailed response will address your concerns and set out how we intend to take this issue forward. I see this email as the beginning, not the end of the debate, and the links below provide an opportunity for you to take it further.

But let me be clear straight away: we have not made any decision about national road pricing. Indeed we are simply not yet in a position to do so. We are, for now, working with some local authorities that are interested in establishing local schemes to help address local congestion problems. Pricing is not being forced on any area, but any schemes would teach us more about how road pricing would work and inform decisions on a national scheme. And funds raised from these local schemes will be used to improve transport in those areas.

One thing I suspect we can all agree is that congestion is bad. It's bad for business because it disrupts the delivery of goods and services. It affects people's quality of life. And it is bad for the environment. That is why tackling congestion is a key priority for any Government.

Congestion is predicted to increase by 25% by 2015. This is being driven by economic prosperity. There are 6 million more vehicles on the road now than in 1997, and predictions are that this trend will continue.

Part of the solution is to improve public transport, and to make the most of the existing road network. We have more than doubled investment since 1997, spending £2.5 billion this year on buses and over £4 billion on trains - helping to explain why more people are using them than for decades. And we're committed to sustaining this investment, with over £140 billion of investment planned between now and 2015. We're also putting a great deal of effort into improving traffic flows - for example, over 1000 Highways Agency Traffic Officers now help to keep motorway traffic moving.

But all the evidence shows that improving public transport and tackling traffic bottlenecks will not by themselves prevent congestion getting worse. So we have a difficult choice to make about how we tackle the expected increase in congestion. This is a challenge that all political leaders have to face up to, and not just in the UK. For example, road pricing schemes are already in operation in Italy, Norway and Singapore, and others, such as the Netherlands, are developing schemes. Towns and cities across the world are looking at road pricing as a means of addressing congestion.

One option would be to allow congestion to grow unchecked. Given the forecast growth in traffic, doing nothing would mean that journeys within and between cities would take longer, and be less reliable. I think that would be bad for businesses, individuals and the environment. And the costs on us all will be real - congestion could cost an extra £22 billion in wasted time in England by 2025, of which £10-12 billion would be the direct cost on businesses.

A second option would be to try to build our way out of congestion. We could, of course, add new lanes to our motorways, widen roads in our congested city centres, and build new routes across the countryside. Certainly in some places new capacity will be part of the story. That is why we are widening the M25, M1 and M62. But I think people agree that we cannot simply build more and more roads, particularly when the evidence suggests that traffic quickly grows to fill any new capacity.

Tackling congestion in this way would also be extremely costly, requiring substantial sums to be diverted from other services such as education and health, or increases in taxes. If I tell you that one mile of new motorway costs as much as £30m, you'll have an idea of the sums this approach would entail.

That is why I believe that at least we need to explore the contribution road pricing can make to tackling congestion. It would not be in anyone's interests, especially those of motorists, to slam the door shut on road pricing without exploring it further.

It has been calculated that a national scheme - as part of a wider package of measures - could cut congestion significantly through small changes in our overall travel patterns. But any technology used would have to give definite guarantees about privacy being protected - as it should be. Existing technologies, such as mobile phones and pay-as-you-drive insurance schemes, may well be able to play a role here, by ensuring that the Government doesn't hold information about where vehicles have been. But there may also be opportunities presented by developments in new technology. Just as new medical technology is changing the NHS, so there will be changes in the transport sector. Our aim is to relieve traffic jams, not create a "Big Brother" society.

I know many people's biggest worry about road pricing is that it will be a "stealth tax" on motorists. It won't. Road pricing is about tackling congestion.

Clearly if we decided to move towards a system of national road pricing, there could be a case for moving away from the current system of motoring taxation. This could mean that those who use their car less, or can travel at less congested times, in less congested areas, for example in rural areas, would benefit from lower motoring costs overall. Those who travel longer distances at peak times and in more congested areas would pay more. But those are decisions for the future. At this stage, when no firm decision has been taken as to whether we will move towards a national scheme, stories about possible costs are simply not credible, since they depend on so many variables yet to be investigated, never mind decided.

Before we take any decisions about a national pricing scheme, we know that we have to have a system that works. A system that respects our privacy as individuals. A system that is fair. I fully accept that we don't have all the answers yet. That is why we are not rushing headlong into a national road pricing scheme. Before we take any decisions there would be further consultations. The public will, of course, have their say, as will Parliament.

We want to continue this debate, so that we can build a consensus around the best way to reduce congestion, protect the environment and support our businesses. If you want to find out more, please visit the attached links to more detailed information, and which also give opportunities to engage in further debate.

Yours sincerely,

Tony Blair


Note:
This is the response all the signatories of the petition got by email. I don't know whether it is available online, thus the lack of linkage.

For the record, I would like to state that Tony is at least partially right. The roads ARE very fucking crowded, and i would LOVE to see less people driving to teh cornershop to buy beer just because they are too lazy to walk 5 minutes.
Granthor
21-02-2007, 14:56
About the one thing I do agree with. People just need to accept they're using their cars too much, and there are alternatives. But still...

"Yours sincerely,

Tony Blair"

Made me chuckle. :p
Allegheny County 2
21-02-2007, 14:58
Road pricing sounds an awful lot like the turnpikes states have here in the US called EZ Pass.

Meh. I'm not a brit but from what I can see, might not be a bad idea.
Shx
21-02-2007, 15:06
Road pricing sounds an awful lot like the turnpikes states have here in the US called EZ Pass.

Meh. I'm not a brit but from what I can see, might not be a bad idea.

They want to put a GPS tracking device in every car in the country which will monitor which road you are driving on and charge you per mile based on the pricing for that road.

Note - they already get a per/mile, per/pollution road tax from petrol which they take 75% of the pump price.
Slartiblartfast
21-02-2007, 15:18
We have a massive problem with uninsured/untaxed/unregistered cars at the moment, leading to people using false number plates to evade congestion charges etc.
How on earth are they going to enforce another ludicrous car based tax??

It will the honest subsidising the dishonest, which is the way British taxes AND benefits seem to be at the moment.

The punishment for being dishonest are a joke and our prisons are full and our public transport is a joke - all we will see is more electronic tags, ASBOs and community orders whilst the honest people pay £8 a day to travel in their capital city

My £0.02
Rubiconic Crossings
21-02-2007, 15:19
I want to know where my £160 road tax goes...
Allegheny County 2
21-02-2007, 15:20
They want to put a GPS tracking device in every car in the country which will monitor which road you are driving on and charge you per mile based on the pricing for that road.

Note - they already get a per/mile, per/pollution road tax from petrol which they take 75% of the pump price.

Ah thanks! So in other words, you drive on ANY road you have to pay. Hmmmm wonder if we can implement that in the cities.
Shreetolv
21-02-2007, 15:22
They want to put a GPS tracking device in every car in the country which will monitor which road you are driving on and charge you per mile based on the pricing for that road.

Note - they already get a per/mile, per/pollution road tax from petrol which they take 75% of the pump price.

since it is very fucking obvious that most drivers are too fucking stupid to use their own heads when it comes to making the best decisions for themselves, as in when to drive and when not, and since we ARE living under Peak Oil, I am afraid that I can see the reasons for this measure
Shreetolv
21-02-2007, 15:25
We have a massive problem with uninsured/untaxed/unregistered cars at the moment, leading to people using false number plates to evade congestion charges etc.
How on earth are they going to enforce another ludicrous car based tax??

It will the honest subsidising the dishonest, which is the way British taxes AND benefits seem to be at the moment.

The punishment for being dishonest are a joke and our prisons are full and our public transport is a joke - all we will see is more electronic tags, ASBOs and community orders whilst the honest people pay £8 a day to travel in their capital city

My £0.02

Maybe the punishments for being dishonest should be higher, and i mean thousands of pounds worth of fines that are deducted from the offender's wages. Having each and every car fitted with the said devices, and strict checks to make sure they all have it, seems like a good idea to me, considering how many morons are out there.

ASBOs are a moronic idea I have to admit. Maybe this country deserves a real fuycking police force and not the fucking muppets we have now.
Shx
21-02-2007, 15:26
Ah thanks! So in other words, you drive on ANY road you have to pay. Hmmmm wonder if we can implement that in the cities.

The managed it in London, although it is a flat fee per day for the whole area in the Congestion Charging zone. The charge was initially started at £5/day with promises that it would only rise with inflation however a couple of years after starting it they jacked the rate up to £8/day, with some specualtion of raising it to £10/day.

I think aside from the government actively tracking it's citizens many people are very wary of allowing the government to set up such infastructure as they have very recently shown that they are quite happy to introduce a scheme on not-too-high rates and then once everything is in place jack up the prices.
Shx
21-02-2007, 15:28
since it is very fucking obvious that most drivers are too fucking stupid to use their own heads when it comes to making the best decisions for themselves, as in when to drive and when not, and since we ARE living under Peak Oil, I am afraid that I can see the reasons for this measure

I can see there are reasons to charge like this, however I really do not like the government putting tracking devices in peoples cars. We put similar devices on criminals released from prison - now anyone who wants to use the roads has to have one?

(I don't drive btw)
Shreetolv
21-02-2007, 15:28
The managed it in London, although it is a flat fee per day for the whole area in the Congestion Charging zone. The charge was initially started at £5/day with promises that it would only rise with inflation however a couple of years after starting it they jacked the rate up to £8/day, with some specualtion of raising it to £10/day.

I think aside from the government actively tracking it's citizens many people are very wary of allowing the government to set up such infastructure as they have very recently shown that they are quite happy to introduce a scheme on not-too-high rates and then once everything is in place jack up the prices.

well, comething HAS to be done about it... any other ideas?
Shreetolv
21-02-2007, 15:30
I can see there are reasons to charge like this, however I really do not like the government putting tracking devices in peoples cars. We put similar devices on criminals released from prison - now anyone who wants to use the roads has to have one?

(I don't drive btw)

I don't like it either. Yet it is already established that most people are irresponsible, and we are gettingto the point where something has to be done. A flat tax seems not enough... what do you suggest?
Shx
21-02-2007, 16:01
I don't like it either. Yet it is already established that most people are irresponsible, and we are gettingto the point where something has to be done. A flat tax seems not enough... what do you suggest?


There is a lot of room for improvemnt in rail and bus services - more carrot less stick.

Also widening of motorways will have a big effect - the entire M25 was designed as a 4 lane motorway but portions of it are just two lanes!. Yes you can't go increasing capacity indefinately but the population of this country will not increase indefinately either.

I would also prefer they raise tax on petrol before they start using GPS tracking to monitor peoples movement in a similar way to how we currently monitor some convicted criminals.

Although it sounds conspiracy theory - once you let the government put these things in your car you will find it very very very hard to get them to let you take them out. And also once the infastructure is in place for actively monitoring people driving it is a very small step for them to start expanding on their uses. Like how much would it take to modify the system to work out how fast you're going and issue you with speeding tickets? Not a great deal. But then they have to prove who was in the car. But hey! Soon we will all have ID cards with a chip in them that could very easily be made to work in conjunction with the GPS tracker to tell the government who is in the car - if the connection is a RFID one then it can also tell them who your passengers are. Say technology improves a bit - once you have a precident of trackign people in their cars it becomes much easier to convince people to let you track them outside their cars..
Ifreann
21-02-2007, 16:28
An internet petition isn't being ignored?


What the fuck?
Greyenivol Colony
21-02-2007, 16:44
I don't like it either. Yet it is already established that most people are irresponsible, and we are gettingto the point where something has to be done. A flat tax seems not enough... what do you suggest?

That is far from being an established fact. The assumption must always be made that people have some reasonable expertise in their own affairs, otherwise the door is opened to all kinds of nasty authoritarian measures.

The thing you have to use for situations like this is the Harrison Ford test. If any government measure or innovation would have made it possible for Tommy Lee Jones to catch Harrison Ford, then chances are its an undue invasion into civil rights.
Shreetolv
21-02-2007, 16:47
There is a lot of room for improvemnt in rail and bus services - more carrot less stick.

Also widening of motorways will have a big effect - the entire M25 was designed as a 4 lane motorway but portions of it are just two lanes!. Yes you can't go increasing capacity indefinately but the population of this country will not increase indefinately either.

I would also prefer they raise tax on petrol before they start using GPS tracking to monitor peoples movement in a similar way to how we currently monitor some convicted criminals.

Although it sounds conspiracy theory - once you let the government put these things in your car you will find it very very very hard to get them to let you take them out. And also once the infastructure is in place for actively monitoring people driving it is a very small step for them to start expanding on their uses. Like how much would it take to modify the system to work out how fast you're going and issue you with speeding tickets? Not a great deal. But then they have to prove who was in the car. But hey! Soon we will all have ID cards with a chip in them that could very easily be made to work in conjunction with the GPS tracker to tell the government who is in the car - if the connection is a RFID one then it can also tell them who your passengers are. Say technology improves a bit - once you have a precident of trackign people in their cars it becomes much easier to convince people to let you track them outside their cars..


I fully agree

let's see:
1. Improvement in public transportation:
This would have to imply breaking the monopoly some companies have on certain routes in cities, or regulate the quality of the service better

2. Higher road taxes

3. Higher fuel taxes
Drake and Dragon Keeps
21-02-2007, 17:22
The problem with Westminster is that they seem to believe that the whole country has public transport like London (i.e. almost decent, though crowded) rather than the realality that outside London public transport is a joke even in the larger cities.

They also want people to pay for the amount they travel and the pollution they create, as people have pointed out fuel tax does this and is actually better because you can't dodge it like other taxes.

Blair says it is to reduce congestion, has he ever drived during rush hour during the school holidays, there is practically no congestion (some in London still, but it is London). This would imply moving school start times to before or after the rush hour and have various schools opening times staggered (not all at the same time) which would be much simpler to implement and cost less. Also having the school bus more widely used (rather than mums driving their kids to school). But no he has to go for the options which are costly to setup and administer, which imfringe on peoples rights (privacy) and increase the tax burden somemore.

Sorry went on a little rant :p
October3
21-02-2007, 17:28
since it is very fucking obvious that most drivers are too fucking stupid to use their own heads when it comes to making the best decisions for themselves, as in when to drive and when not, and since we ARE living under Peak Oil, I am afraid that I can see the reasons for this measure

Most people don't have a choice. Could you imagine an employers response if their employees rang up at 9 in the morning saying 'its a bit busy on the roads today so I'll be in around 12'.

They would have to walk then - to the dole office.
The blessed Chris
21-02-2007, 18:01
The roads are overcrowded. People ought to be responsible enough to walk to those places within walking distance, whilst public transport is not that deficient. A little slow at times, however, it would readily supplant the car for a decent proportion of those who clog the roads.

However, the manner in which government has disregarded prevalent public opinion, again, is deplorable. If Tony Blair is endemic of what will follow for British politics, we truly are fucked.
The blessed Chris
21-02-2007, 18:04
I fully agree

let's see:
1. Improvement in public transportation:
This would have to imply breaking the monopoly some companies have on certain routes in cities, or regulate the quality of the service better

2. Higher road taxes

3. Higher fuel taxes

No. The road network should not simply be a cash cow for a profligate and irresponsible government, nor should those who have a genuine need to travel be punished.

Get off your green hobby-horse and consider that this is new Labour jumping on the green bandwagon, and you're buying it. Moron.
Shreetolv
21-02-2007, 18:33
Most people don't have a choice. Could you imagine an employers response if their employees rang up at 9 in the morning saying 'its a bit busy on the roads today so I'll be in around 12'.

They would have to walk then - to the dole office.

fair enough, that is why I was talking in another post about improving the public transportation.
However, driving to the corner shop?
Shreetolv
21-02-2007, 18:37
No. The road network should not simply be a cash cow for a profligate and irresponsible government, nor should those who have a genuine need to travel be punished.

Get off your green hobby-horse and consider that this is new Labour jumping on the green bandwagon, and you're buying it. Moron.

Thank you for your articulate and polite reply. However since I am in a rather good mood, I will address your first point- how about having a "genuine travel mles card" for each motorist, issued considering his/her work location and other specific needs?

How do you define "genuine need to travel?"

as for being green, I am. On my planet, we call it the lack of being a selfish asshole.
Philosopy
22-02-2007, 00:15
I found it quite fitting that this email from the PM was delivered to my junk mail box.