NationStates Jolt Archive

What is it?

I would say "The Inner Light" from the 5th season of TNG wins. The episode was full of emotional moments as a probe renders Picard unconcious for a matter of minutes. During those few minutes, he lives the entire life of a man who died 1000 years ago as his planet was dying.

My 2nd favorite is "In the Pale Moonlight" from DS9's 6th season. That episode deals with Sisco's moral dilema in trying to get the Romulans into the war. This episode is rated as my 2nd favorite because of the actions carried out by Elim Garak. We knew he was a man who could be dangerous. We just never thought he was this dangerous.

The "There are four lights!" one, when Picard is tortured by the Cardassian. Which was it... "Chain of command", I believe.

TOS - Trouble with Tribbles.

Classic!

Second favorite would have to be another TOS one, I don't recall what it is called, but its the one with the mirror universe, I liked how that addressed the issues that one small choice could make in the development of someones life.

TOS - Trouble with Tribbles.

Classic!

Second favorite would have to be another TOS one, I don't recall what it is called, but its the one with the mirror universe, I liked how that addressed the issues that one small choice could make in the development of someones life.
I love Trouble with Tribbles. I loved the DS9 episode where they revisited that event.

Mirror, Mirror had some unintended consequences. See the DS9 Mirror Universe episodes and then read the 3 books by Shatner on the Mirror Universe.

Mirror, Mirror.

Yes, that was it!.

I think they also revisited that in a DS9 episode, but I haven't seen that...

Edit: Time Warp?

the 2 picard ones just mentioned are good. they are definitely on my list.

another of my favorites is the one from DS9 where jake sisco spends his life trying to rescue his father from some interdimensional trap, giving up every dream he had in the effort.

i like some of the moments from the double riker episode where "tom" riker is rescued after so many years and wants to get back with deanna, insisting that HE would never have broken her heart when of course he would have since he did.

Tribbles, can any other episode, nay, series, compare?
Of course, the DS9 where they revisit that episode was pretty cool to :P

Second favorite would have to be another TOS one, I don't recall what it is called, but its the one with the

Mirror, Mirror.

Depends.

Most dramatic: The Inner light
Funniest: Trouble with Tribbles or Take Me Out to the Holosuite
Edge-of-the-seat: Best of Both Worlds Part I & II

I'd say THE classic Trek ep, the one that mixes everything that Star Trek can be, though is: The City on the Edge of Forever and those lines between McCoy and Spock:
"You deliberately stopped me! I could have saved her! Do you know what you just did?"
"He knows, doctor... he knows."

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/4/41/STDoomsDay.jpg

The Doomsday Machine and of course, The Way To Eden.

http://cfyn.ifas.ufl.edu/images/eden.jpg

I love Trouble with Tribbles. I loved the DS9 episode where they revisited that event.

Mirror, Mirror had some unintended consequences. See the DS9 Mirror Universe episodes and then read the 3 books by Shatner on the Mirror Universe.

I have read those books, they were excellent, definetly a good extension of that episode.

Second favorite would have to be another TOS one, I don't recall what it is called, but its the one with the mirror universe, I liked how that addressed the issues that one small choice could make in the development of someones life.

that episode has a spot in my heart. mostly because i had a wicked crush on mr spock when i was 9 and the series was first run. spock with a goatee was just sooo hot to a 9 year old girl.

the best original series show was "city on the edge of forever" where kirk and spock follow mccoy through the time portal to depression era chicago. (was it chicago?) i think it was a harlan ellison script or based on one of his short stories.

this picture is the perfect illustration of how there are no hot men on star trek. what were they THINKING? even in the '60 that guy was goofy looking.

No one, in any universe, would ever wear that ;)

Edit: The time warpage is out in full force in this thread.

http://cfyn.ifas.ufl.edu/images/eden.jpg

this picture is the perfect illustration of how there are no hot men on star trek. what were they THINKING? even in the '60 that guy was goofy looking.

No one, in any universe, would ever wear that ;)

Edit: The time warpage is out in full force in this thread.
Someone must have slingshot around the sun. ;)

this picture is the perfect illustration of how there are no hot men on star trek. what were they THINKING? even in the '60 that guy was goofy looking.

Oh, shut your face. Picard/Patrick Stewart is dead sexy. Riker is also quite attractive - ooh, how that beard must tickle...

the best original series show was "city on the edge of forever" where kirk and spock follow mccoy through the time portal to depression era chicago. (was it chicago?) i think it was a harlan ellison script or based on one of his short stories.

Well, Harlan had taken a few liberties with the backstory iirc. Had written a crewman with a drug habit. Series Bible no-no, and all that. Reworked it so that Bones gets a jab of something nasty and goes on a time-travel freakout instead.

As much as I love TOS, I love HE. I have most of his published works in my library.

this picture is the perfect illustration of how there are no hot men on star trek. what were they THINKING? even in the '60 that guy was goofy looking.

I say it's really very groovy, Ash you hepcat, you.

Don't be a Herbert, now!

Oh, shut your face. Picard/Patrick Stewart is dead sexy. Riker is also quite attractive - ooh, how that beard must tickle...

as much as i agree with you about patrick stewart, picard is a cold fish. he'd fuck you if he had a free minute and no archeology books to take his attention away from you.

riker is a slut who would fuck anything that seems vaguely female.

Well, Harlan had taken a few liberties with the backstory iirc. Had written a crewman with a drug habit. Series Bible no-no, and all that. Reworked it so that Bones gets a jab of something nasty and goes on a time-travel freakout instead.

As much as I love TOS, I love HE. I have most of his published works in my library.

that sounds very ellisonish. it still ended up as the best episode even with the wimping out.

i never liked ellisons fiction but i bought all of his books at one point because i loved his introductions.

riker is a slut who would fuck anything that seems vaguely female.
You make Commander Riker sound like he'd go after anything that was female, good looking, and has a pulse.

;)

as much as i agree with you about patrick stewart, picard is a cold fish. he'd fuck you if he had a free minute and no archeology books to take his attention away from you.

So? He'd still fuck me, and I imagine Picard to be very good at that. Oh, he'd so totally command my ass.

riker is a slut who would fuck anything that seems vaguely female.

I can camp it up, so that's also a boon. As I said, very ridable face on that one...

pulse optional.
No, that's Kirk. ;)

Edit: Evidently my reply entered the Guardian of Forever.

You make Commander Riker sound like he'd go after anything that was female, good looking, and has a pulse.

;)

pulse optional.

So? He'd still fuck me, and I imagine Picard to be very good at that. Oh, he'd so totally command my ass.

I can camp it up, so that's also a boon. As I said, very ridable face on that one...

lol.

but then they would become obsessed over which did a better job on you. it would be divisive for the whole crew.

TOS - Trouble with Tribbles.

Same here.

lol.

but then they would become obsessed over which did a better job on you. it would be divisive for the whole crew.

And the only way to settle the argument would be for them to go tag team on me. Who ever wins, I win! :)

No, that's Kirk. ;)

Edit: Evidently my reply entered the Guardian of Forever.

kirk wasnt a slut, he just had NEEDS.

and as an explorer it was his duty to... well, you know...

kirk wasnt a slut, he just had NEEDS.

and as an explorer it was his duty to... well, you know...

Explore uncharted territory? ;)

that sounds very ellisonish. it still ended up as the best episode even with the wimping out.

i never liked ellisons fiction but i bought all of his books at one point because i loved his introductions.I stole Again, Dangerous Visions from the public library when I was a teenager simply because of those introductions. Wish to gods I still had it.

youre not thinking star trekishly.

think BOLDLY

I'll restate:

To boldly go where no man has gone before!

Edit: I can't seem to get a post in the right order tonight...

Explore uncharted territory? ;)

youre not thinking star trekishly.

think BOLDLY

Oh, shut your face. Picard/Patrick Stewart is dead sexy. Riker is also quite attractive - ooh, how that beard must tickle...

...I never pegged you for a Trekkie, but then you've been surprising me a lot lately...

I'd also have to say "The Inner Light." Then there's that one from Voyager...that one where they encounter sentient descendents of dinosaurs or something...

Also "In the Pale Moonlight"

"Trouble with Tribbles" is always fun.

Shame on whoever said "Way to Eden" was a good episode, as it was bad bad bad bad bad, even by sixties standards, let alone today's.

youre not thinking star trekishly.

think BOLDLY
Given that Kirk seems to end up with either the ship's hooker (or the starbase/planet's one), I'd say he normally boldly goes where many men have gone before. :D

Scorpian and endgame from Star trek Voyager are my favorites.

now now dont be bitter. he had some virgins too.

there was that android chick who was supposed to fall in love with him so that she could later love the guy who made her...
Oh I'm not bitter, I'm just saying that McCoy had it right when he asked Kirk, "What's with you anyway?"

Given that Kirk seems to end up with either the ship's hooker (or the starbase/planet's one), I'd say he normally boldly goes where many men have gone before. :D

now now dont be bitter. he had some virgins too.

there was that android chick who was supposed to fall in love with him so that she could later love the guy who made her...

Then there's that one from Voyager...that one where they encounter sentient descendents of dinosaurs or something...
Saw that one this afternoon--it wasn't half bad. I've discovered in the last few hours just much a Trekkie I'm not. Didn't even know Sulu was gay, after all.

My top two, not necessarily in order: "The Trouble with Tribbles" and "Amok Time" from TOS. I still laugh at the punchline at the end of "Tribbles," and I'm still creeped out by the ruthlessness of Vulcan women.

Saw that one this afternoon--it wasn't half bad. I've discovered in the last few hours just much a Trekkie I'm not. Didn't even know Sulu was gay, after all.
It's okay Nazz, don't worry. I'm not that much of a Trekkie either, despite my encyclopedic knowledge, which I only have thanks to my brain being a sponge of all kinds of information anyway. I've never dressed up in a uniform, never attended a convention or signed a petition to keep a series going, or did anything considered to be truly fannish.

*whistles*

Good topic!

I'm going to say the Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast two parter from DS9's third season. It really helped set the tone for the rest of the series, and highlighted and expanded upon two of the series' best characters (Odo and Garak)

For pure fun, I'll say TNG's A Fistful of Datas :D

I'm going to say the Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast two parter from DS9's third season. It really helped set the tone for the rest of the series, and highlighted and expanded upon two of the series' best characters (Odo and Garak)

Not to mention providing some of the best proof Star Trek technology is superior to Star Wars technology. (Star Wars takes a moon sized battlestation to destroy a planet, and Star Trek takes only about 20 to 30 starships and a couple days at most.)

Not to mention providing some of the best proof Star Trek technology is superior to Star Wars technology. (Star Wars takes a moon sized battlestation to destroy a planet, and Star Trek takes only about 20 to 30 starships and a couple days at most.)

Two hours for the crust, and five more for the mantle, IIRC.

Two hours for the crust, and five more for the mantle, IIRC.

Oh, yeah, that's right. My bad. I overestimated.

Oh, yeah, that's right. My bad. I overestimated.

Meh...still proves the pwnage. :D

Meh...still proves the pwnage. :D

Aye. Won't stop rampant EU completionists and idiotic Warsies, but they're a breed not unlike Young Earthers, creationists, scientologists, and others, so meh.

But, to avoid straying any further off topic...I nominate "Parallels" as a darn good one. Not the best, surely, but still pretty damned good.

Aye. Won't stop rampant EU completionists and idiotic Warsies, but they're a breed not unlike Young Earthers, creationists, scientologists, and others, so meh.
PLEASE don't bring that up! The last thead on that wandered for many pages and many months.

TOS - Trouble with Tribbles.


Agreed. Also the last two episodes of Voyager.

PLEASE don't bring that up! The last thead on that wandered for many pages and many months.

Hence the second half of the post, an attempt to avoid such a distraction.

Risotta: Uh, no. "Endgame' was Dues Ex Machina'd the whole way through, not to mention introduced several new technologies that essentially made it nigh impossible for Paramount to continue Trek in the 24th century through sheer overpowering of the Federation. Also, what the crap was up with the hiding in the sphere bit? How'd they manage that? Sure, Elite Force II made this actually make some sense, but it's not canon so we can't take its explanation for granted.

Oh, shut your face. Picard/Patrick Stewart is dead sexy. Riker is also quite attractive - ooh, how that beard must tickle...

Probably the only time I will ever agree with Fassigen.

Also the last two episodes of Voyager.

Second that

"Best of Both Worlds" parts I and II from TNG are the best eps ever. "Equinox" from Voyager was quite well done as well.

TOS - The Conscience of the King

Darmok, Chain of Command, and the one you mentioned about Sisco and the Romulans.

spock with a goatee was just sooo hot to a 9 year old girl.

Riker is also quite attractive - ooh, how that beard must tickle...

I'll never understand how Bones' beard (http://garfieldridge.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/mccoy.JPG) never caught on. Knocked me flat over with hearts throbbing in my eyes the first time *I* saw it.

On a less-irrelevant note, I'm going to agree with the many "City on the Edge of Forever" votes. As that one's already been taken, however, I will mention that I quite enjoyed "Court Martial." "A Piece of the Action" is always good for a laugh. Among non-TOS episodes, my favorite is probably "Our Man Bashir". DS9 actually *could* be good, when it wasn't farting around with war story arcs and diluting the Trek message.

"Check?"

"Right."

The Way To Eden.

http://cfyn.ifas.ufl.edu/images/eden.jpg

I've hardly watched any Star Trek, but the one where Shatner encountered the hippies was good. I'm pretty sure it's the one in Dobbs' photo here.

DS9 sucks.

Voyager sucks.

Fixed ;)

Fixed ;)

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

OK, perhaps you'd like to give us a series of reasons as to why DS9 sucks then?

Otherwise....:rolleyes:

OK, perhaps you'd like to give us a series of reasons as to why DS9 sucks then?

Otherwise....:rolleyes:

1) It was a space station
2) Star Trek was about exploring the unknown space. Not parked near a wormhole to let the mysteries come to them.
3) Very little plot till the Dominion War picked up. Then it got interesting but by that time, it was a bit late to win me over. This was about the only thing it had going for it.

OK, perhaps you'd like to give us a series of reasons as to why DS9 sucks then?

Otherwise....:rolleyes:

I don't think DS9 sucks, really. I liked the action and the story arcs as much as I didn't like the Captain...

...but I can't say that Voyager sucks either. Do you have a "series of reasons" as to why it does, in your opinion?

I forgot to mention "Tuvix" from Voyager. Very interesting, classical "socio-philosophical" sci-fi.

I forgot to mention "Tuvix" from Voyager. Very interesting, classical "socio-philosophical" sci-fi.

That is indeed a good episode.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/be/STCityForever.jpg

The City on the Edge of Forever

The "There are four lights!" one, when Picard is tortured by the Cardassian. Which was it... "Chain of command", I believe.

I was going to say that.

:D

I did like Charlie X
http://www.durfee.net/startrek/images/TOS008a.jpg

on TOS

oh and Dagger of the mind

and Balance of Terror

and This Side of paradise


and The Naked Time........TNG did great with The Naked Now too.

I have way too many favorite Voyager episodes...I might be back.

Call to Arms, or Way of the Warrior. I love to see that station in action.

I'll never understand how Bones' beard (http://garfieldridge.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/mccoy.JPG) never caught on. Knocked me flat over with hearts throbbing in my eyes the first time *I* saw it.



http://garfieldridge.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/mccoy.JPG

yeah if you like your men VERY VERY OLD.

perhaps when im 70 ill think he looks dead sexy with that beard.

I'm sure this has already been mentioned, but the answer is obviously the DS9 episode Far Beyond The Stars. Best episode of the only good Trek series.

Anything with Tribbles in it is made of win.

http://garfieldridge.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/mccoy.JPG

yeah if you like your men VERY VERY OLD.

perhaps when im 70 ill think he looks dead sexy with that beard.

From the looks of it, the emphasis will be on the dead.

What is it?In a Mirror, Darkly, parts 1 and 2 from Enterprise

The alternate universe and the Terran Empire... I love 'em. This particular two part episode is the best of all of them because it actually has a different run of credits at the beginning.

I was going to say that.
:D

This is getting creepy.

would people PLEASE stop thinking that everyone on this thread is such a geek that we recognize every episode by its name. a bit of description goes a long way.

1) It was a space station
2) Star Trek was about exploring the unknown space. Not parked near a wormhole to let the mysteries come to them.
3) Very little plot till the Dominion War picked up. Then it got interesting but by that time, it was a bit late to win me over. This was about the only thing it had going for it.Ah, but DS9 being a space station was what made that the best series. Instead of focussing on exploration it focussed on interstellar politics, particularly with the dominion war.

I quit enjoyed the Startrek/Warhammer 40K crossover fanfic: A New Age.

Ah, but DS9 being a space station was what made that the best series. Instead of focussing on exploration it focussed on interstellar politics, particularly with the dominion war.

nah.

what makes ds9 the best st series is that it is set in an imperfect universe.

in TNG we are told that everyone on earth is self actualized. there is no greed no jealousy, no working for money. they have moved beyond petty considerations of wealth and prestige. their lives are spent in the pursuit of that which is most meaningful to them. or some such bullshit.

in DS9 its dog eat dog. people have to struggle for what they get. there is money, there is hardship. things dont work right. people are out to kill you. its never a little misunderstanding, they ARE out to get you. people fall in love, appropriately or inappropriately, and it sticks. they have long term relationships. they even moved miles obrien over from TNG with his family. they brought warf over and let him get married.

its just a much deeper show on a personal level.

the writers took that imperfect attitude with them to the new battlestar galactica. its made that show great too.

Ah, but DS9 being a space station was what made that the best series. Instead of focussing on exploration it focussed on interstellar politics, particularly with the dominion war.

Aww screw intersteller politics.

I'm sure somebody has said this, but the finale of the Star Trek TNG series was incredible. Although I think the most emotional ones for me had to do with Data, like when he had to undergo a trial to determine his humanity (remember when Riker had to ask him to take his arm off? I cried!) and when he made his daughter Lal. Holy shit, that was a tearjerker.

I have to agree with a previous poster, that the best TOS episode was The Conscience of the King. It's the one where Kirk is tricked into going to a planet by an old friend, who believes he has found a wanted criminal, whom only Kirk and the engineering ensign (can't think of his name) can identify.

No big battles, no aliens (besides Spock, of course), just a very human story of obsession, treachery and desperation, where even the putative villain comes off as sympathetic in the end.

I rate it even higher than City on the Edge of Forever, as it isn't quite so melodramatic.

All of the Trek series' have been generally good. But while they have all had truly awful episodes, to me only TOS has reached the true heights of greatness. TNG, DS9 and Voyager and even Enterprise flew, but TOS soared.

I'm sure somebody has said this, but the finale of the Star Trek TNG series was incredible. Although I think the most emotional ones for me had to do with Data, like when he had to undergo a trial to determine his humanity (remember when Riker had to ask him to take his arm off? I cried!) and when he made his daughter Lal. Holy shit, that was a tearjerker.

i hate those episodes. they are so contrived. some guy long after data has been found, activated, educated, accepted as a starfleet officer and assigned to duty, suddenly gets a bug up his ass about taking data apart and its seriously considered?

lal is just as bad. "i have decided to procreate" but he only discusses any of the issues involved after it is a done deed. pffft. and then he never gives it another try. pfffft.

contrived.

I don't actually remember any individual Trek episodes as being really good or really bad, for that matter. Therefore, I'll state that they all suck, until I dig up my old DVD sets in the attic and watch them again someday. (That, or finally buy a complete series on DVD as I planned to do for the past two years, although I'm not sure which one I'll get.)

i hate those episodes. they are so contrived. some guy long after data has been found, activated, educated, accepted as a starfleet officer and assigned to duty, suddenly gets a bug up his ass about taking data apart and its seriously considered?

lal is just as bad. "i have decided to procreate" but he only discusses any of the issues involved after it is a done deed. pffft. and then he never gives it another try. pfffft.

contrived.

Contrived, perhaps - but they were the means by which the Star Trek franchise introduced their own brand of sci-fi morality plays. A little heavy handed, but perhaps not too much so, Star Trek has held a special place in my heart for making so many issues into water-cooler-compatible fare.

Contrived, perhaps - but they were the means by which the Star Trek franchise introduced their own brand of sci-fi morality plays. A little heavy handed, but perhaps not too much so, Star Trek has held a special place in my heart for making so many issues into water-cooler-compatible fare.

my problem is that ive seen them too many times. instead of appreciating the concept i get caught up in the stupid plot devices. the flaw of supposing that anyone would risk the destruction of the only working android bugs me more than the discussion of what makes a person a person intrigues me.

Darmac and Gilad, at Tanagra. Chaka when the walls fell. This episode, with arms wide.

my problem is that ive seen them too many times. instead of appreciating the concept i get caught up in the stupid plot devices. the flaw of supposing that anyone would risk the destruction of the only working android bugs me more than the discussion of what makes a person a person intrigues me.

But that was kind of the point. As humans in a less-than-perfect world, we encounter just such illogical platforms on an almost daily basis.

What an episode might do, though, while it may require an illogical premise, is cause people to question 'what is it that makes us human', or 'what are the fundamental rights'... or 'who are the 'bad guys' in war'...

Overall - does it make sense that Data never tried to build more offspring? Not really - although he does give some flip excuse about how he has gained knowledge from the experience - but it does leave questions about governmental intrusion, individual determination... fundamental human rights, and how we 'earn' them... that extend far beyond the viewing slot.

Darmac and Gilad, at Tanagra. Chaka when the walls fell. This episode, with arms wide.

For lack of anything leaping out at me, I'm going to go with this one, too. The idea of a symbolic language, something that universal translator technology could 'translate', but not make comprehensible - was an idea that was long overdue.

Darmac and Gilad, at Tanagra. Chaka when the walls fell. This episode, with arms wide.

i love that episode even though the notion that the universal translator wouldnt be able to deal with their language is completely stupid.

the bonding of the 2 "men" through a similar shared experience is so well done.

The "universal translator" is an odd concept.

"We make first contact with a race that has never seen human beings before, from the Delta Quadrant! They speak English!"

Douglas Adams then satirised that with the Babel fish.


Nonetheless, part of the fun is added to/taken out of Star Trek episodes when I note all of the inconsistencies, impossibilities, improbabilities, and other oddities they contain.

i love that episode even though the notion that the universal translator wouldnt be able to deal with their language is completely stupid.

the bonding of the 2 "men" through a similar shared experience is so well done.

I think the idea they were aiming for, was a language that involved some ability to intuitively 'feel' the logic, so to speak.

As an example - we often use the term 'Romeo' to describe someone who is often a successful pursuer of women, but this is cultural perspective and a little bit of intuition - since - even if you identified the right 'Romeo' as the root of the symbol, 'successful' is probably not the implication directly inherent in the original story.

I wasn't a big fan of the season overall, but my favourite episode was Voyager, season 2, episode 26. Basics, Part I.

There's a serial killer among the crew, and they lock him (Ensign Suder, played by Brad Dourif, who played Wormtongue in the LOTR movies) in the brig. But then, the ship is boarded and captured by the Kazon, who drop the entire crew on an uninhabited planet and take Voyager for themselves. The only people left onboard to recapture the ship are the holographic doctor and the psycho killer, who escaped his holding cell during the attack.

I like it because they presented a starfleet officer who wasn't a good person, and they put him in a position where he could do good things, despite not being a good person. Star Trek doesn't usually like anti-heroes.

I wasn't a big fan of the season overall, but my favourite episode was Voyager, season 2, episode 26. Basics, Part I.

There's a serial killer among the crew, and they lock him (Ensign Suder, played by Brad Dourif, who played Wormtongue in the LOTR movies) in the brig. But then, the ship is boarded and captured by the Kazon, who drop the entire crew on an uninhabited planet and take Voyager for themselves. The only people left onboard to recapture the ship are the holographic doctor and the psycho killer, who escaped his holding cell during the attack.

I like it because they presented a starfleet officer who wasn't a good person, and they put him in a position where he could do good things, despite not being a good person. Star Trek doesn't usually like anti-heroes.

Ah yes, Brad Dourif. Much under-rated. You have reminded me of a brightspot in the otherwise fairly tragic descent that was Voyager.

Star Trek doesn't usually like anti-heroes.

How would you qualify Garak and Dukat, then? And Damar, for that matter? DS9 had some excellent Cardassian characters.

I think the idea they were aiming for, was a language that involved some ability to intuitively 'feel' the logic, so to speak.

As an example - we often use the term 'Romeo' to describe someone who is often a successful pursuer of women, but this is cultural perspective and a little bit of intuition - since - even if you identified the right 'Romeo' as the root of the symbol, 'successful' is probably not the implication directly inherent in the original story.

Yes, that episode was very good. Translation is a lot more than just translating words. All language reflects a specific culture, and for once an episode addressed that.

I think the idea they were aiming for, was a language that involved some ability to intuitively 'feel' the logic, so to speak.

As an example - we often use the term 'Romeo' to describe someone who is often a successful pursuer of women, but this is cultural perspective and a little bit of intuition - since - even if you identified the right 'Romeo' as the root of the symbol, 'successful' is probably not the implication directly inherent in the original story.

which is an interesting discussion. it just has no real place in a system where the universal translator has no problem immediately translating the language of any other form of life no matter how radically different from what we know.

to suggest that it suddenly cant deal with translating "romeo" when it can translate the language of specks of dust living inside some kind of energy flux (i cant remember the episode that comes from very well) is...welll... CONTRIVED.

which is the flaw of star trek. the shows are contrived to illustrate some scientific, social, or political concept. the characters are puppets whose actions dont come from a deep understanding of their personalities but from a need to fuel the plot.

the good episodes are good in spite of this contriving rather than because of it. so the picard torture by the cardassians is good because they bothered to make it work with picards personality. the one where he lives a lifetime on dead planet in a few minutes works because of the life story not because of the mechanism

the bad episodes dont work because they leave the understanding of the star trek world behind in the need to make their point. so data hasnt been discussing his desire to procreate because that works with the plot better. they invoke or ignore the prime directive as it suits the plot. they want to discuss gender politics so riker has to hump yet another female alien.

How would you qualify Garak and Dukat, then? And Damar, for that matter? DS9 had some excellent Cardassian characters.

But DS9 doesn't count as a "real" Star Trek series because they weren't going off and exploring new planets and new life every other episode!!!1

(Actually, the creators of DS9 were fulfilling the 'To boldly go where no man has ever gone before' [to go boldly or boldly to go, bloody split infinitives] adage by setting it on a space station rather than a starship, which no Star Trek series had ever done before, lol.)

(Ack, I'm bad today. I need to relax or something.)

I wasn't a big fan of the season overall, but my favourite episode was Voyager, season 2, episode 26. Basics, Part I.

There's a serial killer among the crew, and they lock him (Ensign Suder, played by Brad Dourif, who played Wormtongue in the LOTR movies) in the brig. But then, the ship is boarded and captured by the Kazon, who drop the entire crew on an uninhabited planet and take Voyager for themselves. The only people left onboard to recapture the ship are the holographic doctor and the psycho killer, who escaped his holding cell during the attack.

I like it because they presented a starfleet officer who wasn't a good person, and they put him in a position where he could do good things, despite not being a good person. Star Trek doesn't usually like anti-heroes.

oh is that who that actor was? i think i only saw that episode once but he certainly is memorable.

had he done other stuff i should be seeing? he's a very compelling actor.

How would you qualify Garak and Dukat, then? And Damar, for that matter? DS9 had some excellent Cardassian characters.
Garak's a better example than Dukat. Dukat went from villain to hero, but he was never an anti-hero. But Garak was too slick to be a believable character, I thought. I never really liked him.

He did remind me of someone on Babylon 5, but I can't think who.

Eh, I didn't mind DS9 being set on a space station. I didn't even mind the geo-political bickering. What I didn't like was the constant, hammered reinforcment of the idea "the future WON'T turn out well! everything will be just the same as it is now! there's no hope for humanity!" That and the huge orgies of computerized ZOMG SPACE BATTLES.

If I want a gritty, "realistic" portrayal of the future as described through military exploits, there's any number of quite good books / television series / movies I can read / watch. I liked Star Trek for its naïve innocence, its absolute faith that humanity is redeemable, and its confidence that, given the chance, things will work out OK. I'm fine with the occasional episode that subverts or questions that hypothesis, but I resent being bombarded with "The federation isn't perfect" story after story after story.

Oh, and I'm not a fan of big 'story arcs'. There's too much of a chance to miss one part and fall behind. For instance, I was quite enjoying the new BSG (crash watched seasons one and two in the period of about a month, religiously watched season three for its first half) but then I missed the first three episodes of the second half of the season (thanks, SciFi channel, for that wonderful innovation) and now I feel like I'm so far behind there's no catching up. Guess I'll catch it when it comes out on DvD.

which is an interesting discussion. it just has no real place in a system where the universal translator has no problem immediately translating the language of any other form of life no matter how radically different from what we know.

to suggest that it suddenly cant deal with translating "romeo" when it can translate the language of specks of dust living inside some kind of energy flux (i cant remember the episode that comes from very well) is...welll... CONTRIVED.


But, in fiction, 'contrived' is the nature of the beast.

Anyway - I find my self disagreeing. Without the Rosetta Stone, we might still be smacking our heads against Egyptian heiroglyphics. Our ability to translate many languages with relative ease has relied on parallels, and common form. When we come across a truly unique (appearing) language, our ability to extrapolate according to the 'laws' we know, falls apart.

The episode in question deals with that - a language for which we lack a rosetta stone. Even though we can put names to the symbols (like the falling walls, etc) we don't know what they mean, because we have no parallels, and the form is not common to anything we know.

Amusingly - if the Enterprise had a 'ship's poet laureate' or some such, they might have had much quicker success making first contact.


which is the flaw of star trek. the shows are contrived to illustrate some scientific, social, or political concept. the characters are puppets whose actions dont come from a deep understanding of their personalities but from a need to fuel the plot.

the good episodes are good in spite of this contriving rather than because of it. so the picard torture by the cardassians is good because they bothered to make it work with picards personality. the one where he lives a lifetime on dead planet in a few minutes works because of the life story not because of the mechanism

the bad episodes dont work because they leave the understanding of the star trek world behind in the need to make their point. so data hasnt been discussing his desire to procreate because that works with the plot better. they invoke or ignore the prime directive as it suits the plot. they want to discuss gender politics so riker has to hump yet another female alien.

This was the strength of the DS9 franchise to me. Less of the blowing shit up, more of the character driven plot.

oh is that who that actor was? i think i only saw that episode once but he certainly is memorable.

had he done other stuff i should be seeing? he's a very compelling actor.
Aside from LOTR, he played Doc Cochran in for 2 seasons on Deadwood. And he was in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest in 1975. He's good at playing crazy people.

I do recommend a film called Chaindance. It's a buddy movie starring Brad Dourif and Michael Ironside. Ironside plays a violent criminal, and Dourif plays a wheelchair bound cerebral palsy patient, but it's a fun buddy movie.

Eh, I didn't mind DS9 being set on a space station. I didn't even mind the geo-political bickering. What I didn't like was the constant, hammered reinforcment of the idea "the future WON'T turn out well! everything will be just the same as it is now! there's no hope for humanity!" That and the huge orgies of computerized ZOMG SPACE BATTLES.

If I want a gritty, "realistic" portrayal of the future as described through military exploits, there's any number of quite good books / television series / movies I can read / watch. I liked Star Trek for its naïve innocence, its absolute faith that humanity is redeemable, and its confidence that, given the chance, things will work out OK. I'm fine with the occasional episode that subverts or questions that hypothesis, but I resent being bombarded with "The federation isn't perfect" story after story after story.

Oh, and I'm not a fan of big 'story arcs'. There's too much of a chance to miss one part and fall behind. For instance, I was quite enjoying the new BSG (crash watched seasons one and two in the period of about a month, religiously watched season three for its first half) but then I missed the first three episodes of the second half of the season (thanks, SciFi channel, for that wonderful innovation) and now I feel like I'm so far behind there's no catching up. Guess I'll catch it when it comes out on DvD.

Well, whatever floats your boat. I preferred it over the more naïve ones because of that idea specifically; although such fiction tends to depress or annoy other people, I like the more realistic type approaches in which there really isn't a clear good or evil force, or even when there is but the evil force can and does win. For instance, during the Dominion War the Federation had to ally with people it considered evil or disagreeable, such as Klingons and Cardassians. (Come to think of it it had to do similar things in other series as well, but I didn't watch the episodes in question, so I'll pretend they didn't happen until I actually get around to it.)

This is speaking from about 20-21 episodes scattered throughout all seven seasons, plus Wikipedia, but still.

oh is that who that actor was? i think i only saw that episode once but he certainly is memorable.

had he done other stuff i should be seeing? he's a very compelling actor.

He's done everything. You've seen him in a million things, really. He was in at least two other Star Trek episodes, for a start.

He was a possibly-psychic killer in X-Files, he was in the movie "Colour of Night", he was the voice of Chucky in the Child's Play movies, he has a little screentime in the crappy Alien movie (Alien 4), he had a brief appearance in Millennium, a few onscreen moments in Babylon 5, he was in "Blue Velvet" and "Dune" (obviously David Lynch appreciates his genius), and he was even in "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest". I've also caught him in bit parts in a variety of other things, ranging from (I think it was) "Murder, She Wrote" to "Tales from the Crypt".

At one point I was collecting the Brad Dourif back-catalogue - I think he is one of the great overlooked masters. Unfortunately for me, he makes stuff quicker than I buy it. :(

Aside from LOTR, he played Doc Cochran in for 2 seasons on Deadwood. And he was in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest in 1975. He's good at playing crazy people.

I do recommend a film called Chaindance. It's a buddy movie starring Brad Dourif and Michael Ironside. Ironside plays a violent criminal, and Dourif plays a wheelchair bound cerebral palsy patient, but it's a fun buddy movie.

Ah yes, I heard he was in Deadwood... but, since I haven't seen it, I couldn't comment.

But, in fiction, 'contrived' is the nature of the beast.

Anyway - I find my self disagreeing. Without the Rosetta Stone, we might still be smacking our heads against Egyptian heiroglyphics. Our ability to translate many languages with relative ease has relied on parallels, and common form. When we come across a truly unique (appearing) language, our ability to extrapolate according to the 'laws' we know, falls apart.

The episode in question deals with that - a language for which we lack a rosetta stone. Even though we can put names to the symbols (like the falling walls, etc) we don't know what they mean, because we have no parallels, and the form is not common to anything we know.

Amusingly - if the Enterprise had a 'ship's poet laureate' or some such, they might have had much quicker success making first contact.


its not that i dont appreciate the discussion of language. i just find it stupid to suggest that it never came up before and that such a powerful translation device could be so easily flummoxed by a problem that is inherent in all language translation. (for example, when writing chinese its common to use the first and last word of famous phrases, leaving out the middle words. if you dont know the phrase, you cant have much hope of ever figuring out what is being said. like saying "house stand" for "a house divided against itself cannot stand")

the problem is not the discussion of how language and translation works, the problem is plot created to illustrate the discussion.

He's done everything. You've seen him in a million things, really. He was in at least two other Star Trek episodes, for a start.

He was a possibly-psychic killer in X-Files, he was in the movie "Colour of Night", he was the voice of Chucky in the Child's Play movies, he has a little screentime in the crappy Alien movie (Alien 4), he had a brief appearance in Millennium, a few onscreen moments in Babylon 5, he was in "Blue Velvet" and "Dune" (obviously David Lynch appreciates his genius), and he was even in "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest". I've also caught him in bit parts in a variety of other things, ranging from (I think it was) "Murder, She Wrote" to "Tales from the Crypt".

At one point I was collecting the Brad Dourif back-catalogue - I think he is one of the great overlooked masters. Unfortunately for me, he makes stuff quicker than I buy it. :(
Check out his IMDB entry; it's insane.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000374/

How would you qualify Garak and Dukat, then? And Damar, for that matter? DS9 had some excellent Cardassian characters.That's one reason why I'm so disappointed they cancelled Enterprise. The "evil twins" were very interesting characters, almost all flawed, but some capable of some sort of redemption. Captain Forrest sacrificing himself for the crew in a world where promotions are achieved by assassinating your superior is a remarkable feat of loyalty.

He's done everything. You've seen him in a million things, really. He was in at least two other Star Trek episodes, for a start.

He was a possibly-psychic killer in X-Files, he was in the movie "Colour of Night", he was the voice of Chucky in the Child's Play movies, he has a little screentime in the crappy Alien movie (Alien 4), he had a brief appearance in Millennium, a few onscreen moments in Babylon 5, he was in "Blue Velvet" and "Dune" (obviously David Lynch appreciates his genius), and he was even in "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest". I've also caught him in bit parts in a variety of other things, ranging from (I think it was) "Murder, She Wrote" to "Tales from the Crypt".

At one point I was collecting the Brad Dourif back-catalogue - I think he is one of the great overlooked masters. Unfortunately for me, he makes stuff quicker than I buy it. :(

i put his name into netflix. he sure has been in alot of crap. its a shame since he owns the screen when he is on it. i would have thought that his role in LOTR would have gotten him more quality jobs. he was so perfectly creepy as wormtongue.

i put his name into netflix. he sure has been in alot of crap. its a shame since he owns the screen when he is on it. i would have thought that his role in LOTR would have gotten him more quality jobs. he was so perfectly creepy as wormtongue.It was rather disappointing they didn't manage to get his voice for the strategy game. Having an unrecognizable voice actor responding to commands while Christopher Lee gives off tirades against the world of men was a let down.

i put his name into netflix. he sure has been in alot of crap. its a shame since he owns the screen when he is on it. i would have thought that his role in LOTR would have gotten him more quality jobs. he was so perfectly creepy as wormtongue.

Well, "Colour of Night" wasn't the best movie ever made. I'll admit, he has been in movies that weren't up to his calibre. However, Brad Dourif in Colour of Night is magnificent. Often, it is worth watching things with him in, even if they might not be masterpieces, to see just how wasted he has been.

I agree - I had hoped LOTR would finally bring him to public attention - I was hooked the first time I saw "Dune", but apparently, no one else was - but his moment seems yet to come. :(

My 2nd favorite is "In the Pale Moonlight" from DS9's 6th season. That episode deals with Sisco's moral dilema in trying to get the Romulans into the war. This episode is rated as my 2nd favorite because of the actions carried out by Elim Garak. We knew he was a man who could be dangerous. We just never thought he was this dangerous.

The single best line of dialogue ever issued in star trek ever:

That's why you came to me, isn't it, captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing? Well, it worked. And you'll get what you wanted: A war between the Romulans and the Dominion. And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet Officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain.

I had hoped LOTR would finally bring him to public attention
If that was going to work it would have worked when he was in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

He might be too good at being creepy.

I love Trouble with Tribbles. I loved the DS9 episode where they revisited that event.
those're the episodes that stands out in my mind.

and the Borg. I study social behaviour, among other things, and use the Borg as an example regularly :). Them and Darth Vader, just because.

If that was going to work it would have worked when he was in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

He might be too good at being creepy.

from that imdb list, he is getting work-- 4 films in 2007 already. they dont look like movies ill see but at least he isnt being ignored.

Number 1 best ST episode ever would have to be "Family" (TNG) followed closely by "In the pale Moonlight" (DS9) and "City on the Edge of Forever" (TOS). Also an honorable mention to "Sacrifice of Angels" (DS9) because it gave a sense of the epic proportion of the Dominion war and showed what ST was capable of.

I have alot of favorites.

TNG

"The Best of Both Worlds": The Borg done went and assimilated the cap'n! Famous line: "Resistance is futile"

"Chain of Command": The Cardasians done went and captured the cap'n! Famous line: "THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!"

"Redemption": C'mon! KLINGON CIVIL WAR!!!

"Darmok": Cap'n befriends a dying alien.

"The Inner Light": No description can truly reflect this episode's excellence.

DS9

"Sacrifice of Angels": Frickin' huge space battle!

"Waltz": Sisco gets stranded with the series deranged villain

"Far Beyond the Stars": An episode exploring racism in early 20th century US.

"In the Pale Moonlight": Hey...morality is overrated! Famous Line: "It's a FAAAAAKE!!!"

"The Seige of AR-558": Harkens back to the horrors of war.

The single best line of dialogue ever issued in star trek ever:

Nope. Sorry...that belongs to First Contact.

Lily Sloane: Jean Luc, blow up the damn ship!
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: No! Noooooooooo!
[Smashes glass and model ships with his phaser]
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: I will not sacrifice the Enterprise. Weve made too many compromises already; too mny retreats. They invade our space and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done.

...or even...

Lieutenant Commander Data: And for a time, I was tempted by her offer.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: How long a time?
Lieutenant Commander Data: 0.68 seconds sir. For an android, that is nearly an eternity.