NationStates Jolt Archive

So, I cropped up in a conversation earlier. How will you remember Tony Blair's era of power? Good or bad? Personally - especially in the last couple of years - I think he, and his party, have messed up badly. Not only is there the war in Iraq, there's the horrific state of the NHS, the education system is in a state, and gang crime and gun crime is much more prevalent in today's society. What do people think?

EDIT: Oh, and the state of the Home Office and prison system is absolutely appalling. I'm disgraced by a country that can't even deal out justice properly.

I think that His Tonyness fucked up a lot of things. Mostly because he transformed the Labour (a moderate left-wing party) into this stupid New Labour (a centre-, when not centre-right- party). Also he made the foreign policies of Britain look like those of the 51st state of the USA.

I'll remember. I'll always thank Blair for destroying my faith in politicians.

From what I know of British politics (a bit more than the average American, but still not whole lot)...he wasn't half bad, but he's obviously made unpopular decisions.

Methinks there will be a lot of voters switching from Labour to the Lib Dems...though that may be just what the Tories are hoping for.

Good luck to you! :p

Blarg politics.

I thing he has done okayish. The war was a mistake, crime is going to go up, and so is gun crime, no goverment in this land is going to be able to change that.

I say we'll see what the next generation of leaders bring us.

From what I know of British politics (a bit more than the average American, but still not whole lot)...he wasn't half bad, but he's obviously made unpopular decisions.

He started off alright. Just sort of went downhill. Drastically. Imagine Tony Blair, in a shopping trolley, going down a really steep hill.

Methinks there will be a lot of voters switching from Labour to the Lib Dems...though that may be just what the Tories are hoping for.

Good luck to you! :p

Hmm. Back door in for Tories.

So, I cropped up in a conversation earlier. How will you remember Tony Blair's era of power? Good or bad? Personally - especially in the last couple of years - I think he, and his party, have messed up badly. Not only is there the war in Iraq, there's the horrific state of the NHS, the education system is in a state, and gang crime and gun crime is much more prevalent in today's society. What do people think?

Personally, I see him as a lap dog to Bush's America and a man whose government is excellent at throwing away money, apart from the large amounts they keep for their pockets.

it started out good we could have been a better shinier Denmark then somewhere on the line labour became a right wing movement and here we are with the conservatives being more left wing

I guess its the curse of having a leader in power for a long period of time

He started off alright. Just sort of went downhill. Drastically. Imagine Tony Blair, in a shopping trolley, going down a really steep hill.


Amusing sight. Expecially if Dubya is waiting for him at the end of the road. WHAM!;)

it started out good we could have been a better shinier Denmark then somewhere on the line labour became a right wing movement and here we are with the conservatives being more left wing

I guess its the curse of having a leader in power for a long period of time

Well I wouldn't say THAT. More centrist, certainly, but left wing?

Amusing sight. Expecially if Dubya is waiting for him at the end of the road. WHAM!;)

Two birds with one stone!

Trilby63;12350309']I'll remember. I'll always thank Blair for destroying my faith in politicians.

You had faith in them before Blair :eek:

For me he certainly has increased my contempt for politicians, these last two years have been the worst so far. More restrictions introduced on basic freedoms, trying to remove peoples privacy when ever they can, increasing the tax burden while claiming they are not increasing taxes.

The best decision his government ever made was giving interest rate control over to the BoE. Everything else they have done seems to have gone wrong eventually and the Home Office seems to be in melt down now.

You had faith in them before Blair :eek:

For me he certainly has increased my contempt for politicians, these last two years have been the worst so far. More restrictions introduced on basic freedoms, trying to remove peoples privacy when ever they can, increasing the tax burden while claiming they are not increasing taxes.

The best decision his government ever made was giving interest rate control over to the BoE. Everything else they have done seems to have gone wrong eventually and the Home Office seems to be in melt down now.

Well I was younger back then and only just starting to get interested in politics.

So, I cropped up in a conversation earlier. How will you remember Tony Blair's era of power? Good or bad? Personally - especially in the last couple of years - I think he, and his party, have messed up badly.
I will remember his only redeeming value when I look back at these years. That value being that we will be well shot of the **** soon.

Not only is there the war in Iraq,
Which will be his legacy, and the entire country will pay for it in terms of reputation and trust throughout the world for generations to come.

there's the horrific state of the NHS,
I blame Blair as much as I blame the policies of previous governments, which he has just continued like the good neo-Tory he is.

the education system is in a state,
Yep. Allowing religious indoctrination by American car dealers in our schools.

and gang crime and gun crime is much more prevalent in today's society. What do people think?
Again, I don't hold Blair entirely to blame for that. I think the problem is much more deeply rooted in society, as it always has been, notwithstanding his inability to manage criminal justice.

I will reamber him from killing the party I lvoed, a party that valued principles over winnign and opposed neo-Liberalism at every turn into a center-right pawn of America. I'll also remaber that his first few years wehre good, but then he passed the oppertunity to trun brtiian into a true Social Democracy adn instead furthered the decline into 'greed is good' neo-liberal madness.

I'll reamber how much good he's done for Enduction, perticually in the early years, and how much he's ruined his good work in the last 2 years, as the target setting has gone mad and he's brought in City Acadermys. Oh, and Foundation hospitals....

Basically, first 3 yeras good, the rest bad.

I think it's been good and bad.

The NHS is a mess. Gun crime is rising. Teenagers have been demonised. Society seems to be breaking down. Taxes are way up, public services have deteriorated, and there are now hundreds of new crimes to fall foul of and get a fine. The N Irish education system is about to be dragged, kicking and screaming, down to the level of the English one.

However, N Ireland has come on a huge amount, the cause of social equality across the country is much more advanced.

However, N Ireland has come on a huge amount, the cause of social equality across the country is much more advanced.

I'm not too clued up about the situation in Northern Ireland. Seems you live there, so I'll take your word for it :p. But even so, it is good to hear this nation's Government hasn't COMPLETELY messed something up.

Heard an interesting program on Radio 4 yesterday, Start the Week with Andrew Marr, in which a documentary maker talking about a program about Blair's time in office being shown on BBC 2 in the near future. He was recalling a speech which Blair made in 1999, where he said that he “hoped this would be the first generation in which a British soldier would never fire a single bullet in a theater of war” (paraphrased). Funny how things turn out, eh?

Personally, the best thing New Labour has ever done was to make all public galleries and museums free to enter.

And possibly the worst legacy of Blair is that he’s made it possible, even likely, for the Tories to get back into power.

Heard an interesting program on Radio 4 yesterday, Start the Week with Andrew Marr, in which a documentary maker talking about a program about Blair's time in office being shown on BBC 2 in the near future. He was recalling a speech which Blair made in 1999, where he said that he “hoped this would be the first generation in which a British soldier would never fire a single bullet in a theater of war” (paraphrased). Funny how things turn out, eh?

Personally, the best thing New Labour has ever done was to make all public galleries and museums free to enter.

And possibly the worst legacy of Blair is that he’s made it possible, even likely, for the Tories to get back into power.

That show is on BBC2 tonight at 21:00....

As for the Rev Smiler...oh where to start...

To cut to the quick...John Smith would have made sure that the Rev Smiler never got a bigger government portfolio than Junior Under Secretary Of State for Turnip Production...

It was better even under Thatcher and that comes from me a loyal Tory Boy and fully paid up party member.

Good job the Conservatives will get in, they lead the polls shame the Lib Dem's aren't do to well as I sort of liked them.

It was better even under Thatcher and that comes from me a loyal Tory Boy and fully paid up party member.

Good job the Conservatives will get in, they lead the polls shame the Lib Dem's aren't do to well as I sort of liked them.

You have got to be joking!!!!

The Tories are a bunch of spineless troglodytes who as the 'Opposition' did fuck all opposing.

I am not sure who has fucked this country more...Mags or the Rev Smiler. MAgs ruined the working class...converted them into chavs...removed the idea of collective responsibility and created a war to win an election, and revamped the criminal justice system to allow Smilers hideous draconian 'anti terror' legislation...

Fuck the both of them...treacherous scum.

As for the Rev Smiler...oh where to start...
...

I was going to watch it, then I though I might tape it, then I decided that three parts would be three parts too many.....

I'll remember him as Thatchers cuckoo.

It was better even under Thatcher and that comes from me a loyal Tory Boy and fully paid up party member.

Good job the Conservatives will get in, they lead the polls shame the Lib Dem's aren't do to well as I sort of liked them.

The Tories are a bunch of backstabbing hypocrites who don't even deserve the title "politician." It was terrible under Iron Maggie. I would much rather see the Lib Dems gain power - in fact, I would have liked to see them gain power with Charles Kennedy. Unfortunately, every politician now has to be perfect, and he got the boot. Sad. Now the Lib Dems have no political presence.

To cut to the quick...John Smith would have made sure that the Rev Smiler never got a bigger government portfolio than Junior Under Secretary Of State for Turnip Production...
You won’t hear a bad word about John Smith nowadays, will you? Considering the man who took his job, that’s hardly a surprise though. I’m just old enough to have been politically aware enough to remember the reports on the news the day Smith had his heart attack.

And, I remember staying up late one day in 1997, looking around the room at smiling faces, as on the TV a nice looking man, smiling wherever he went, shook a lot of hands to Things Can Only Get Better.

Whatever he’s done, Blair has dominated British political life. He’s managed to largely push Thatcherism out of people’s minds, even though arguably he’s continuing the same vision, and created a brand new focal point of political vitriol.

And on a personal note, though I can remember Major (and in fact my first ‘political’ memory is a very hazy recollection of the Berlin Wall coming down), Blair and my growing opposition to him and the New Labour movement has shaped my political life. I doubt I’d be doing a degree in philosophy/politics without Teflon Tony.

So in that way, I thank him. Him and his fucking grin.

Nobody knows what it's like... to be a dustbin... in Shaftsbury... with hooligans...

I was going to watch it, then I though I might tape it, then I decided that three parts would be three parts too many.....

I'll remember him as Thatchers cuckoo.

I'd rather watch Manure get trased by the froggies...but yeah...I fail to see the point while the scumbag is in office. He has too much power.

The Tories are a bunch of backstabbing hypocrites who don't even deserve the title "politician." It was terrible under Iron Maggie. I would much rather see the Lib Dems gain power - in fact, I would have liked to see them gain power with Charles Kennedy. Unfortunately, every politician now has to be perfect, and he got the boot. Sad. Now the Lib Dems have no political presence.

Politician is not a title to be envied.

You won’t hear a bad word about John Smith nowadays, will you? Considering the man who took his job, that’s hardly a surprise though. I’m just old enough to have been politically aware enough to remember the reports on the news the day Smith had his heart attack.

And, I remember staying up late one day in 1997, looking around the room at smiling faces, as on the TV a nice looking man, smiling wherever he went, shook a lot of hands to Things Can Only Get Better.

Whatever he’s done, Blair has dominated British political life. He’s managed to largely push Thatcherism out of people’s minds, even though arguably he’s continuing the same vision, and created a brand new focal point of political vitriol.

And on a personal note, though I can remember Major (and in fact my first ‘political’ memory is a very hazy recollection of the Berlin Wall coming down), Blair and my growing opposition to him and the New Labour movement has shaped my political life. I doubt I’d be doing a degree in philosophy/politics without Teflon Tony.

So in that way, I thank him. Him and his fucking grin.

So much to talk about!

You are right...no evil words about the Sainted John Smith...who knows how he would have tuned out...but he did have an amount of humanity about him...not quite a Bevan but in the vicinity.

1997 I spent the night watching the results with a couple of bottles of good Scottish whisky. I even danced to the fucking theme tune. I was sooooo happy the Tories lost...we finally had a party with direction...if only I knew what the real direction was! The shine rubbed off within a year. He became sanctimonious.

Nobody knows what it's like... to be a dustbin... in Shaftsbury... with hooligans...

Been there (Big Market Newcastle), done that...had the t-shirt which I sold for some gear ;)

Politician is not a title to be envied.


That's what I was getting at. ;)

1997 I spent the night watching the results with a couple of bottles of good Scottish whisky. I even danced to the fucking theme tune. I was sooooo happy the Tories lost...we finally had a party with direction...if only I knew what the real direction was! The shine rubbed off within a year. He became sanctimonious.
That night it was cries of, “no more privatisation!”, “no more scandals!”, “no more pointless wars!”, “yaaaay, the socialists are back in power!”.

How wrong we were.

That's what I was getting at. ;)

Can I marry you?

Can I marry you?

Be my guest!
*marries Rubiconic Crossings* :p

Be my guest!
*marries Rubiconic Crossings* :p

LOL!!

I am always happy to find others who consider pols as scum...

LOL!!

I am always happy to find others who consider pols as scum...

So most of humanity? :p

Oh, yes, political commentary. Been a while since I did any of that.

I think the title accurately portrays Blair's decade in office. Politics in Britain, as a direct result of this "New" "Labour" term in office, has become the Power Market.

This is not, you understand, merely a jab at the Cash for Honours scandal of the New Labour administration. To be honest, the scandal is merely the tip of the iceberg. No, what Blair and Brown have managed to do is to devastate the traditional gap between the state and Industry and have, in a two pronged attack, greatly empowered both of them through a combination of social and economic authoritarianism and marketing.

It really is rather clever. Before Blair, Politics was about sending people to represent your views in a national council; now, thanks to the overwhelming powers given to the cabinet, it's about picking which brand of ruler you want to see. You can forget your local MP ever getting more from the house of commons than a brief quip off in PMQs. Politics is about the sale, now. It's about getting people to buy your product. And not just the British Parliament; now you can have the Northern Irish assembly! The Scottish Assembly! The Welsh Assembly! The... well, English assembly will be released third quarter if the appropriate funds can be provided.

We've got IT projects swarming the NHS, we've got privitised Traffic wardens, we've got private schooling being enforced onto the more well off kids, we've got road charges for anyone who wants to drive anywhere... Heck, even our armed forces have been contracted out to the US.

It is only now, in hindsight, that the true meaning of Blair's "Third Way" becomes starkly clear. No longer is it the economically liberal "Government lets Industry get on with it" or authoritive "Government takes control of Industry"; instead, he and Brown have turned Government into Business. One can sum up the New Labour approach as follows: "The Workers are represented by the Industry, so let's give the power to the Industry itself".

And what power they've given it. In the last five years, for instance, the War on Terror has given New Labour the lease they've needed to crack down on privacy, free media, free protest and all of those other unproductive things that people do. And underlying it all is a far more sinister line. Not a lot of attention is drawn to this, but New Labour's assault on Britain's academia has been devastating. Young people are expected to "become educated" in order to get jobs, and solely so, and education has been manipulated to reflect that. Never mind gaining a fascination for the world, learning to think critically, growing as an individual or getting to grips with the problems of the human condition. The purpose of youth in Blair's vision of Britain is to serve society through industry.

Is it any wonder the New Labour regime has seen such a marked increase in disaffiliation in young people, with the associated crime, poverty and social disorder this brings? What use is there going to college if you're going to end up a slave to the workplace no matter what happens? What's the point in trying when you can spend your time rioting with more or less the same consequences?

So it's been 10 years already. Well, thanks for the talking points Mr Blair, but we're going to have to ask you to tidy up the mess from your experiment before you leave the classroom. Other people want to experiment with the world, and they can't do it with your legacy lying all over the place.

-snip-

That was quite pwnalicious, hear hear.

I spit on New Labour. Every policy I can recall that New Labour have either passed or proposed has been bloody awful, and I hold Blair entirely responsible for making me vote for that smug centrist **** Cameron in 2009.

I spit on New Labour. Every policy I can recall that New Labour have either passed or proposed has been bloody awful, and I hold Blair entirely responsible for making me vote for that smug centrist **** Cameron in 2009.

Vote Lib Dem!!




....please? :p

Vote Lib Dem!!




....please? :p

I'm tempted not to bother at all.

Lib Dem taxation simply is an anathema to my principles, I wouldn't vote Labour when pressed by boulders, and the Conservative party doesn't merit the title anymore, whilst the minor parties are simply a lost cause.

snippety (though damn good post).

You could smell the optimism...I remember people coming back from Britain during the first year or so and it was all smiles and "those days are gone" (re the Thatcher-Reagan smooch-fest). What a fucking waste, really. That Tory poster with the red eyes had it right, rather ironically.

I'm tempted not to bother at all.

Lib Dem taxation simply is an anathema to my principles, I wouldn't vote Labour when pressed by boulders, and the Conservative party doesn't merit the title anymore, whilst the minor parties are simply a lost cause.

Minor parties? Lost cause? BAH! Monster Raving Loony Party FTW.

Oh, yes, political commentary. Been a while since I did any of that.

I think the title accurately portrays Blair's decade in office. Politics in Britain, as a direct result of this "New" "Labour" term in office, has become the Power Market.

This is not, you understand, merely a jab at the Cash for Honours scandal of the New Labour administration. To be honest, the scandal is merely the tip of the iceberg. No, what Blair and Brown have managed to do is to devastate the traditional gap between the state and Industry and have, in a two pronged attack, greatly empowered both of them through a combination of social and economic authoritarianism and marketing.

Only the half of it....his entire tenure has been earmarked with favoritism.

It really is rather clever. Before Blair, Politics was about sending people to represent your views in a national council; now, thanks to the overwhelming powers given to the cabinet, it's about picking which brand of ruler you want to see. You can forget your local MP ever getting more from the house of commons than a brief quip off in PMQs. Politics is about the sale, now. It's about getting people to buy your product. And not just the British Parliament; now you can have the Northern Irish assembly! The Scottish Assembly! The Welsh Assembly! The... well, English assembly will be released third quarter if the appropriate funds can be provided.

You can blame that on the Thatch....

We've got IT projects swarming the NHS, we've got privitised Traffic wardens, we've got private schooling being enforced onto the more well off kids, we've got road charges for anyone who wants to drive anywhere... Heck, even our armed forces have been contracted out to the US.

You have no idea...I had the misfortune of encountering N3 (http://www.connectingforhealth.nhs.uk/delivery/programmes/n3).

However someone was brave.... Fijitsu Exec kicks ass (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/13/npfit_is_doomed/).

It is only now, in hindsight, that the true meaning of Blair's "Third Way" becomes starkly clear. No longer is it the economically liberal "Government lets Industry get on with it" or authoritive "Government takes control of Industry"; instead, he and Brown have turned Government into Business. One can sum up the New Labour approach as follows: "The Workers are represented by the Industry, so let's give the power to the Industry itself".

Welcome to neo-liberalism.

And what power they've given it. In the last five years, for instance, the War on Terror has given New Labour the lease they've needed to crack down on privacy, free media, free protest and all of those other unproductive things that people do. And underlying it all is a far more sinister line. Not a lot of attention is drawn to this, but New Labour's assault on Britain's academia has been devastating. Young people are expected to "become educated" in order to get jobs, and solely so, and education has been manipulated to reflect that. Never mind gaining a fascination for the world, learning to think critically, growing as an individual or getting to grips with the problems of the human condition. The purpose of youth in Blair's vision of Britain is to serve society through industry.

You forget. Labour is still made up of socialists. [small s intended]

Is it any wonder the New Labour regime has seen such a marked increase in disaffiliation in young people, with the associated crime, poverty and social disorder this brings? What use is there going to college if you're going to end up a slave to the workplace no matter what happens? What's the point in trying when you can spend your time rioting with more or less the same consequences?

Yeah the young. The UNICEF report was a shocker. Still. You forget those of us like me who as a young teen had to endure the early 80's. Until I moved to the UK (Leeds) in '83 I was working. I had to finish High School and then I was out in the big world. Work? There was nothing. Until the temp agencies kicked off by late '85. Sure I have a good job now that pays well but I pay 40% in income tax alone. Where the fuck does that go? I am sick (well I've always been anti tax) to see my money be spent on bollocks. There are a lot of us...young and old. Why do we need to spend £15 billion on a new nuclear weapons system that we will not have sole control over? Yeah I also think the that that £15 billion will turn into £25 billion. I remember Trident.

When the Thatch was in power we imagined that the country was turning into a fucking police state...the irony that its Tony fucking twat Blair thats really brought it home is a travesty to what any Englishman considers to be their right.

So it's been 10 years already. Well, thanks for the talking points Mr Blair, but we're going to have to ask you to tidy up the mess from your experiment before you leave the classroom. Other people want to experiment with the world, and they can't do it with your legacy lying all over the place.

I'm gonna puke.

So most of humanity? :p

If only they'd stop voting :mad:

If only they'd stop voting :mad:

Never know, perhaps one day.



ANARCHY FTW! :p

Never know, perhaps one day.

People are sheep.



ANARCHY FTW! :p

depends...

For it to really work we need to overcome greed. Do you see that happening? Barring a major catastrophe?

People are sheep.
Well, yeah.

depends...

For it to really work we need to overcome greed. Do you see that happening? Barring a major catastrophe?

Meh I'm not really an anarchist. Much more of a socialist. But I like some aspects of it.

Well, yeah.



Meh I'm not really an anarchist. Much more of a socialist. But I like some aspects of it.

ah.

You might have guessed I'm not a fan... LOL

ah.

You might have guessed I'm not a fan... LOL

It was obvious, hehe.

Minor parties? Lost cause? BAH! Monster Raving Loony Party FTW.

I fear Boris might actually be elected PM as their leader.....:D

I fear Boris might actually be elected PM as their leader.....:D

Screaming Lord Sutch FTW. :D

It was obvious, hehe.

LOL yeah well...

There are some things that I do hold dear as part of my national identity like the NHS and our inclusive educational system.

I do not like the way they are run though.

I do not like the controlling aspects of socialism. In the same way I do not like the 'nosy neighbour' aspect of the rightists.

Screaming Lord Sutch FTW. :D

Um....he's dead....

Um....he's dead....

Ok, ok, Screaming Lord Sutch's corpse FTW. We all know he'd do a great job.

Ok, ok, Screaming Lord Sutch's corpse FTW. We all know he'd do a great job.

A decomposing spine is better than none at all.

A decomposing spine is better than none at all.

Well thats us fucked then!

LOL yeah well...

There are some things that I do hold dear as part of my national identity like the NHS and our inclusive educational system.

I do not like the way they are run though.

I do not like the controlling aspects of socialism. In the same way I do not like the ‘nosy neighbour’ aspect of the rightists.
Sounds like you’ve a libertarian streak in you.

I fear Boris might actually be elected PM as their leader.....:D
Quaint though he may be, Boris is still a Tory bastard.

Quaint though he may be, Boris is still a Tory bastard.

Boris is excellent because of that. Anyway, you don't count, you're scottish, and only vote Labour because the rest of the UK funds Scottish socialism.;)

Sounds like you’ve a libertarian streak in you.

Yes indeed. Of course an English Libertarian is by nature one who takes pride in his compatriots.

In other words an Libertarian with a social conscience. If it was not for certain people with the same free thinking frame of mind we would never have been shot of African slavery.

Now we have the problem of slavery in terms of 'ordinary' employees and employers but also in the 'white slave' arena. I say enough. It is an abomination of so many values that it should no longer exist in the 21st century.

Boris is excellent because of that. Anyway, you don't count, you're scottish, and only vote Labour because the rest of the UK funds Scottish socialism.;)

DO you seriously think that 'Braindead' Boris manages The Spectator all by his lonesome?

The bloke is a certifiable nutcase! Did you watch his series on the EU?

Mad as a brush!

DO you seriously think that 'Braindead' Boris manages The Spectator all by his lonesome?

The bloke is a certifiable nutcase! Did you watch his series on the EU?

Mad as a brush!

I shouldn't imagine Boris edits it all at present, Tory head office do to avoid further embaressment.:D

I shouldn't imagine Boris edits it all at present, Tory head office do to avoid further embaressment.:D

Boris was sacked from that job about a year ago.

I shouldn't imagine Boris edits it all at present, Tory head office do to avoid further embaressment.:D


LOL ok...that me laugh ;)

Boris was sacked from that job about a year ago.

Bloody hell!!! Now then stranger! Hows you?

Boris is excellent because of that. Anyway, you don’t count, you’re scottish, and only vote Labour because the rest of the UK funds Scottish socialism.;)
Ah, Chris. If you weren’t real, they’d have to invent you. :p

I vote, or at least have voted in past elections, Green, because with with the additional member system, minority parties stand a good chance of getting seats in Holyrood. Unlike the Westminster elections, where my vote was lost in a Labour safe seat, my Green vote actually had an impact, and helped towards Green MSPs getting into parliament.

I’m not going to even start on the weird topic of Scottish socialism.

In other words an Libertarian with a social conscience. If it was not for certain people with the same free thinking frame of mind we would never have been shot of African slavery.
So a libertarian socialist then, or an anarchist as they are more commonly known. I’ve got libertarian socialist leanings myself; certainly I’m ideologically and philosophically an anarchist.

On a side note, there’s a special In Our Time on Radio 4 next week about Wilbur Wilberforce, the guy who led the campaign against the British slave trade. You might be interested.

Ah, Chris. If you weren’t real, they’d have to invent you. :p

I vote, or at least have voted in past elections, Green, because with with the additional member system, minority parties stand a good chance of getting seats in Holyrood. Unlike the Westminster elections, where my vote was lost in a Labour safe seat, my Green vote actually had an impact, and helped towards Green MSPs getting into parliament.

I’m not going to even start on the weird topic of Scottish socialism.

Chris is special. I will say though that he has been less rabid recently. I am not being disparaging. Ivory towers are incredibly closeted.

So a libertarian socialist then, or an anarchist as they are more commonly known. I’ve got libertarian socialist leanings myself; certainly I’m ideologically and philosophically an anarchist.

Not really. I find most of these groups degenerate into committee. Utter waste of time. I used to be of an anarchist bent but age has mellowed me LOL

On a side note, there’s a special In Our Time on Radio 4 next week about Wilbur Wilberforce, the guy who led the campaign against the British slave trade. You might be interested.

Cool...I will try and catch that...the entire slavery issue in the UK/Britain is very interesting. How free market capitalists found slavery to me morally repugnant.

Not really. I find most of these groups degenerate into committee. Utter waste of time. I used to be of an anarchist bent but age has mellowed me LOL
I’m talking in the academic sense. For me, I’m certainly a philosophical anarchist, such as William Godwin. My philosophical view of authority and hierarchy is that the two are inherently dangerous, and not to be trusted. You’ve got to be on you’re toes when the whiff of authority is in the air; it breeds corruption and abuse of power.

That doesn’t mean that in life I’m flying the black and red flag at all times. In fact, at the present state humanity is in, I believe we need state intervention Cool...I will try and catch that...the entire slavery issue in the UK/Britain is very interesting. How free market capitalists found slavery to me morally repugnant.[/QUOTE]
I believe the show is on Tuesday at 9:00am and again at 9:30pm. I may be wrong about the day, but I know I’m right about the times. Even so, you can always listen again to all the [I]In Our Time broadcasts on the Radio 4 website. Fantastic program, that’s highly recommended to anyone interested in the history of ideas.

I’m talking in the academic sense. For me, I’m certainly a philosophical anarchist, such as William Godwin. My philosophical view of authority and hierarchy is that the two are inherently dangerous, and not to be trusted. You’ve got to be on you’re toes when the whiff of authority is in the air; it breeds corruption and abuse of power.

Well one of the problems we face is that too much emphasis is placed on blue sky thinking. Look at some of the insanity coming out of Blair's government and it is clear that there is a sense of panic if not an out right conversion to corporate neo liberal fascism. Yet what has been done to fight this abomination against all things that makes an Britisher? Besides people like us (who get labeled as kooks) there are few who actually grasp the fact that our way of life is getting hammered like buggery.

That doesn’t mean that in life I’m flying the black and red flag at all times. In fact, at the present state humanity is in, I believe we need state intervention In Our Time broadcasts on the Radio 4 website. Fantastic program, that’s highly recommended to anyone interested in the history of ideas.

Thanks! I will try to have a listen...

The 97 election is one of my earliest political memories, I remember listening to the first announcement on the radio and being all excited because things were going to change, and everything was great. Partly brought on from my parents I think, who were just ecstatic to see the back of the Tories. Well things quickly went downhill for me. After a couple of years the disillusionment set in. I even found myself occasionally agreeing with whichever Tory spokesman was debating with the Labour guy. Then of course, Afganistan, which I accepted, and Iraq which I didn't, and Blair's attempts to sweep aside liberties we've had for hundreds of years. Sorry Labour, you've lost my vote. I just can't bring myself to make my mark by your name.

I've become my parents, but with the other party. Only I can't decide who I should support, seeing as Labour and the Tories might as well be the same party these days anyway. I've voted Lib Dems the last couple of times, but I always know it's highly unlikely they'll get in. And if Labour gets in again next time... Well I'm not sure what I'd do. Probably become a crazy man ranting at people on the streets. :p

My experience of Blair's decade can be summed up in two songs:

1997 - Things Can Only Get Better
2007 - Won't Get Fooled Again

Well one of the problems we face is that too much emphasis is placed on blue sky thinking. Look at some of the insanity coming out of Blair’s government and it is clear that there is a sense of panic if not an out right conversion to corporate neo liberal fascism. Yet what has been done to fight this abomination against all things that makes an Britisher? Besides people like us (who get labeled as kooks) there are few who actually grasp the fact that our way of life is getting hammered like buggery.
Mmmm. Tis a sad day when profit is put before people, and as a student growing up in Blair’s education system, I can attest that that day has surely arrived. I am, at best, a potential employee. The greatest goal that my government wants me to achieve is to contribute to the nation’s economy.

Yeah. Flag waving has its place. As does the Opposition party. Yet either seem to be effectual. However I am not fond of government regulations when it comes to business. However the reality is that big business cannot be trusted to do the right thing. For them the most important thing is the bottom line. Greed. Pure and simple greed. Sure they pay lip service to ideas of capitalism being liberating and such but the reality is far different.
Most businesses are actually anti-capitalist, or at least anti unfettered capitalism. National businesses require and desire state intervention and the suspension of a truely free market system, while corporations want to move away from the competition of capitalism and desire the opposite–monopoly.

Pipe dream. Sorry.
But this is exactly my point: our unattainable ideas, such as anarchism or universal freedom, can still inform our political thinking and our day-to-day practical politics. I don’t believe anarchism would be workable in our current state, though I’m not entirely convinced that will always be the case, but the healthy distrust of authority and hierarchy that it espouses is useful in practical politics; so too is the ideals of universal liberty and freedom.

1997 - Things Can Only Get Better
2007 - Won't Get Fooled Again
:) Too true, too true.

Mmmm. Tis a sad day when profit is put before people, and as a student growing up in Blair’s education system, I can attest that that day has surely arrived. I am, at best, a potential employee. The greatest goal that my government wants me to achieve is to contribute to the nation’s economy.

And that harkens back to Mags...who finalised the transition from an industrial to a service based economy. You are at best a potential employee. At worst you are a cost centre, and cost centres have no place in New Labour.


Most businesses are actually anti-capitalist, or at least anti unfettered capitalism. National businesses require and desire state intervention and the suspension of a truely free market system, while corporations want to move away from the competition of capitalism and desire the opposite–monopoly.

Yes you are right. However 'they' are starting to realise that actually the competitive marketplace is good for megacorps. How many times have we seen promising new companies get founded, achieve a modicum of success and the get bought by mega corp...even if there is no biz model it happens (uuuutube and goooooogle). Really at the end of the day it is a matter of perception - if you are a pawn of the system or not...you are a pawn unless you go entirely off the grid...and I suspect even that will be made illegal one of these days.

But this is exactly my point: our unattainable ideas, such as anarchism or universal freedom, can still inform our political thinking and our day-to-day practical politics. I don’t believe anarchism would be workable in our current state, though I’m not entirely convinced that will always be the case, but the healthy distrust of authority and hierarchy that it espouses is useful in practical politics; so too is the ideals of universal liberty and freedom.

Its a pipe dream because quite frankly the 'ordinary man on the street' will give lip service to what you have pointed out above but when it comes to the crunch will most likely scuttle back into their hole and 'wait and see what happens'.


:) Too true, too true.

Won't get fooled again....yeah...heh...I thought that as well...and yet the Rev Smiler is in power...still.

...and yet the Rev Smiler is in power...still.
Even Teflon Tony won’t outlast the year. June or July, I’d say.

Even Teflon Tony won’t outlast the year. June or July, I’d say.

August at the earliest...

August at the earliest...

Bah, rubbish. Next week. Thursday. Round tea time.
Bets anyone? :p

Even Teflon Tony won’t outlast the year. June or July, I’d say.

I don;'t know, he said he'sgo, but with the enw poll on gord he might just stay on a bit longer.

Bah, rubbish. Next week. Thursday. Round tea time.
Bets anyone? :p

LOL!!! round tea time...if only!

Of course when he does go Labour will most likely rip itself to bits just like the tories did....

I don;'t know, he said he'sgo, but with the enw poll on gord he might just stay on a bit longer.

Yeah...they really do have some issues...

Yeah...they really do have some issues...
They do indeed...

I am just hoping Gordon wills ee the light...

They do indeed...

I am just hoping Gordon wills ee the light...

yeah but...what will the Rev Smiler do once he's out of office? You just know the bloke will not be able to keep his oar out....and Gordo will not like that one iota...thats why Labour will rip themselves to shreads....

yeah but...what will the Rev Smiler do once he's out of office? You just know the bloke will not be able to keep his oar out....and Gordo will not like that one iota...thats why Labour will rip themselves to shreads....

One thing you can say for Balir is that he's made them more solid.

Hopefully old Labour will arise out of the ashes.

I reckon the current siuation is like the old days of the consensus. One party (or both) will hopefully split away from the cetner soon...

One thing you can say for Balir is that he's made them more solid.

Hopefully old Labour will arise out of the ashes.

I reckon the current siuation is like the old days of the consensus. One party (or both) will hopefully split away from the cetner soon...

Gads....not another Lib/Lab split LOL!

Gads....not another Lib/Lab split LOL!

I was refering to the Lab/Con split in roughly 1976, from the then consensus, that then reformed around the currently Neo-Liberal consensus.

I was refering to the Lab/Con split in roughly 1976, from the then consensus, that then reformed around the currently Neo-Liberal consensus.

!!! Now that is a blast from the past, and one I'm not overly familiar with beyond it being the beginning of the end of One Nation Toryism....

!!! Now that is a blast from the past, and one I'm not overly familiar with beyond it being the beginning of the end of One Nation Toryism....

Well, us poltics students.

bsically the Oil Crisis had sunk keysian economics, which don't factor in having no rescources (it works brillaintly if there are ample recourses though) The Tories swung right while Labour and the Libs carried on. Then 1979 happened and the Tories got in, Labour swung to the left, the Libs kept the same course and the tories went even further right.

The Tories won adn after 1994/5 Labour finally gave up there principles and swung to the right, as did the Liberals. Thus forming a new consensus.

However I reckon, along wtih several otehr poltical scientists, that this consensus will eventually fall, and mroe than that it will fall quite soon as people demand a diffrent view-becuase Neo-Liberalism hasn't been too sucessful in comparision to Social Democracy. In that case the parties will violent veer one way or the other.

The question is which way and who will win.

If you think you can do better than blair and win the next election go to:
www.80soft.com/pmforever/info/uk/index.htm

For a look at the political map of 2005 look here:
www.channel4.com/.../political-map.html

From the channal 4 website we can see that the conservatives and labour have around the same amount of land under their belts, but labour have far more seats. This is becasue the people in the cities vote labour and the people in the countryside vote conservatives. I wonder why...

looks good...

If you think you can do better than blair and win the next election go to:
www.80soft.com/pmforever/info/uk/index.htm

For a look at the political map of 2005 look here:
www.channel4.com/.../political-map.html

From the channal 4 website we can see that the conservatives and labour have around the same amount of land under their belts, but labour have far more seats. This is becasue the people in the cities vote labour and the people in the countryside vote conservatives. I wonder why...

Individuals do not win the office of Prime Minister. However a gnat in heat could have done better than the Rev Smiler.

Individuals do not win the office of Prime Minister. However a gnat in heat could have done better than the Rev Smiler.

to be fair he did okay for the first 3 years...

OF course, with the enthusiasm, majority and ability in his aprty he could have done so much more.

to be fair he did okay for the first 3 years...

OF course, with the enthusiasm, majority and ability in his aprty he could have done so much more.

3? He was at it within the first 12 months! All the talk talk smile smile nothing happening nothing happening...

Ethical foreign policy? Tough on Crime...and Causes of Crime? Education....cut the red tape by increasing....red tape!