NationStates Jolt Archive

If so, what happened? And since nobody bothers to provide their country when asked, please can English people only answer this thread as powers of citizens arrest may be different in different countries, thanks.

If so, what happened. And since nobody bothers to provide their country when asked, please can English people only answer this thread as powers of citizens arrest may be different in different countries, thanks.

English or Welsh, shurely?

I don't think we have one here in the UK.

English or Welsh, shurely?
England and Wales form one legal unit, so the law on Citizen's Arrest will be the same anyway.:p

I don't think we have one here in the UK.

Technically we can perform a citizens arrest, but the powers are very limited (in England anyway).

England and Wales form one legal unit, so the law on Citizen's Arrest will be the same anyway.:p

Yes, therefore limiting the discussion to only those resident in England is mistaken. That was my point, if I indeed did have one.

I wouldn't dare - most crims are bigger and better armed than me

Knowing the British justice system I would probably end up in court for harming the criminals human rights

I don't think we have one here in the UK.
We do.

You must catch the offender in the act of committing the crime, and it must be an indictable (as opposed to a summary) offence. I think.

Community Support Officers use the power of Citizen's Arrest in order to actually be able to arrest people (because they're not proper policemen/women, they legally aren't allowed to properly arrest). They also have other powers (ability to give on the spot fines, etc.).

Sure we have citizens' arrest here, but in Toronto, you don't know who has a gun, so we just keep to ourselves.

I say just get doggy style on them - Tony Martin style - give it to them from behind with both barrels! :sniper:

I say just get doggy style on them - Tony Martin style - give it to them from behind with both barrels! :sniper:

What country you from? Cus doggy style is a sex position where I'm from :O

I thought that according to our dear ministers we are supposed to jump up and down and, if driving, honk our horns? Not do something as harmful to the peace as making citizen's arrest!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;jsessionid=TBRQGK0TPRMHVQFIQMFCFF4AVCBQYIV0?xml=/opinion/2007/02/05/do0501.xml

Community Support Officers use the power of Citizen's Arrest in order to actually be able to arrest people (because they're not proper policemen/women, they legally aren't allowed to properly arrest). They also have other powers (ability to give on the spot fines, etc.).

Funny how we have proto-police that can't always arrest people, but can fine them, isn't it?

And "on the spot fines". So a random John with a silly hat becomes Judge, Jury and Executioner? Not even I'm that bad :s

Do citizen's arrests even exist in English Law? It sounds awfully republican to me.

I say just get doggy style on them - Tony Martin style - give it to them from behind with both barrels! :sniper:
Ah, yes, Tony Martin. "Defending his property".

By shooting a teenager in the back from fairly close range with an illegally owned shotgun.

Ah, yes, Tony Martin. "Defending his property".

By shooting a teenager in the back from fairly close range with an illegally owned shotgun.

That's fair enough - he wasn't defending his property, the teenager wasn't even in Tony Martin's house or next to it, he was quite a distance away. There's a difference between self defence and blatant violence.

Ah, yes, Tony Martin. "Defending his property".

By shooting a teenager in the back from fairly close range with an illegally owned shotgun.

Sounds fair enough to me. In the back is the best place to shoot people, and shotguns don't work well at long range.
I don't really see why people get uppity when those breaking-and-entering get killed by the owners. It's not like they did it accidentally. Ho hum.

We do.

You must catch the offender in the act of committing the crime, and it must be an indictable (as opposed to a summary) offence. I think.
I was fairly sure it disappeared into the Black Hole of forgotten used laws and common law. I learned something today.

Community Support Officers use the power of Citizen's Arrest in order to actually be able to arrest people (because they're not proper policemen/women, they legally aren't allowed to properly arrest). They also have other powers (ability to give on the spot fines, etc.).
CSOs can actually detain people? I thought they only took names and addresses and left the Police to sort it out, that kind of thing. I learned 2 things today.:D

Sounds fair enough to me. In the back is the best place to shoot people, and shotguns don't work well at long range.
I don't really see why people get uppity when those breaking-and-entering get killed by the owners. It's not like they did it accidentally. Ho hum.
You know even vigilante punishment has to fit the crime.

That's fair enough - he wasn't defending his property, the teenager wasn't even in Tony Martin's house or next to it, he was quite a distance away. There's a difference between self defence and blatant violence.

From memory - and I can't be arsed to go and look it up - said teenagers had been making quite a nuisance of themselves* for some time, and the police had done, as usual, bugger all about it.

*Very deliberate understatement.

I have been under citizens arrest before, and I would tell you the story, but I am not allowed to since I am not "English". :(

Sounds fair enough to me. In the back is the best place to shoot people, and shotguns don't work well at long range.
I don't really see why people get uppity when those breaking-and-entering get killed by the owners. It's not like they did it accidentally. Ho hum.

The guy who was shot wasn't breaking and entering at the time of being shot, he was just (apparently) approaching the house. He wasn't attempting to attack Tony Martin. Tony Martin came running out of his house and shot at the guy instead of just training his gun on him. The guy didn't proceed to attack Tony Martin (not that he had a chance) and Tony Martin shot him. It was not reasonable defence of anything and to suggest it is, is almost as bad as suggesting killing people for every crime.

Ah, yes, Tony Martin. "Defending his property".

By shooting a teenager in the back from fairly close range with an illegally owned shotgun.

A teenager who had illeagaly entered the property with intent to burgle. Burglars should loose all rights when performing such an act. I tell you if I was placed in a room with the scrote who nicked my car and an automatic Beretta 12bore the walls would be decorated in hint of brain.

From memory - and I can't be arsed to go and look it up - said teenagers had been making quite a nuisance of themselves* for some time, and the police had done, as usual, bugger all about it.

*Very deliberate understatement.
Apparently Martin had been burgled several times in the previous couple of years and the police hadn't done anything.

Now, either the police cunningly chucked all the paperwork relating to these burglaries away, or Martin never reported them. Either way, no evidence of any reported burglaries at Martin's house was ever found.

I have been under citizens arrest before, and I would tell you the story, but I am not allowed to since I am not "English". :(

Oh, ignore the OP - there is no thread ownership in NS General and no way to limit who posts to a thread. I'd love to hear the story.

By the way, "citizen's arrest" does not exist here. It would instead be a crime called "olaga frihetsberövande" which means "unlawful deprivation of liberty".

That's fair enough - he wasn't defending his property, the teenager wasn't even in Tony Martin's house or next to it, he was quite a distance away. There's a difference between self defence and blatant violence.


He was in Tony Martins house. They were shot whilst trying to escape out of a window. The boy died in the grounds.

A teenager who had illeagaly entered the property with intent to burgle. Burglars should loose all rights when performing such an act. I tell you if I was placed in a room with the scrote who nicked my car and an automatic Beretta 12bore the walls would be decorated in hint of brain.
And you would quite rightly go down for murder.

He was in Tony Martins house. They were shot whilst trying to escape out of a window. The boy died in the grounds.

From what I read about it, there had been incidents of burglary but the particular boy was shot at long range and was not in the house. There was no need to kill him.

A teenager who had illeagaly entered the property with intent to burgle. Burglars should loose all rights when performing such an act. I tell you if I was placed in a room with the scrote who nicked my car and an automatic Beretta 12bore the walls would be decorated in hint of brain.
Whose brain? Yours?

A teenager who had illeagaly entered the property with intent to burgle. Burglars should loose all rights when performing such an act. I tell you if I was placed in a room with the scrote who nicked my car and an automatic Beretta 12bore the walls would be decorated in hint of brain.

They should lose all rights eh? So if the burglar is a 12-year-old kid, it would be fine to rape them? Don't be so bloody stupid

From what I read about it, there had been incidents of burglary but the particular boy was shot at long range and was not in the house. There was no need to kill him.
If he were shot at long range with a shotgun, he almost certainly wouldn't have died.

Whose brain? Yours?

His posts so far indicate that that would be quite improbable, if you catch my drift.

Raping them is not defending - I think you've missed the point.

No I haven't. You clearly said they should lose ALL rights. That clearly includes the right to be free from sexual abuse of any sort. Killing someone is not self-defence either duh, unless they are directly attacking (or about to directly attack) you.

They should lose all rights eh? So if the burglar is a 12-year-old kid, it would be fine to rape them? Don't be so bloody stupid

Raping them is not defending - I think you've missed the point.

I have been under citizens arrest before, and I would tell you the story, but I am not allowed to since I am not "English". :(Yeah me too.. My girlfriend arrested me and tied me to bed.. for being a naughty boy.. but I cant tell you about it.. cos I am not British either. ;)

As jolt is messing up, a repost:


Raping them is not defending - I think you've missed the point.

No I haven't. You clearly said they should lose ALL rights. That clearly includes the right to be free from sexual abuse of any sort. Killing someone is not self-defence either duh, unless they are directly attacking (or about to directly attack) you.

His posts so far indicate that that would be quite improbable, if you catch my drift.
Ah, yes. He was the one who made the Loose Change thread last night, wasn't he?

Hmmm...:p

From what I read about it, there had been incidents of burglary but the particular boy was shot at long range and was not in the house. There was no need to kill him.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/3009769.stm

The last line in the 'gun history' bit.

Raping them is not defending - I think you've missed the point.
The point is quite valid. The issue is whether if someone breaks the law, whether the victim has the right to break the law in turn against the original criminal. Thus, rape and murder become equivalent. The idea of 'self defence', in this context is both irrelevant in the context of this case (the boy was leaving) and would not give an excuse for murder.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/3009769.stm

The last line in the 'gun history' bit.
That doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/3009769.stm

The last line in the 'gun history' bit.

"When his trial began in April 2000 Martin argued that he had genuinely been acting in self-defence.

But it emerged the pair had been shot as they tried to flee through a window."

O.K. So I was wrong about that. But clearly still not "genuine self defence" if the burglars were scarpering.

How rude, and a slightly superior attitude. Not attractive traits.
Newbie, meet Fass.

His posts so far indicate that that would be quite improbable, if you catch my drift.

How rude, and a slightly superior attitude. Not attractive traits.

According to the Wikipedia article, wossface was shot whilst exiting through a window, not in the grounds.

The parole board, however, has continually refused him early release - saying he has shown no remorse and would continue to pose a danger to any other burglars.

Heh, and we can't have that, can we! :D

Ah, yes. He was the one who made the Loose Change thread last night, wasn't he?

Hmmm...:p

That was just a bit of Sunday night fun. I love people with no sense of irony. They crack me up.

I once performed a "Citizens Smack in The Face" on some chav who tried to steal my mobile phone if that counts....

He ran off.

Oh dear, he might pose a danger to burglars. Well, I thought we had a prisons crisis. We don't have a crematorium crisis, if you get my drift!

See THAT is direct self-defence of property. Except some of us believe you'd be quite entitled to give him another smack as he ran off. And possibly throw rocks, if there are any in the vicinity.

I once performed a "Citizens Smack in The Face" on some chav who tried to steal my mobile phone if that counts....

He ran off.

See THAT is direct self-defence of property.

How rude, and a slightly superior attitude. Not attractive traits.

To your ilk, I should certainly hope so.

See THAT is direct self-defence of property.

But that criminal can go and rob somebody else instead.
One of the ones who was trying to rob Tony Martin can't.
You see the advantage of killing them?

To your ilk, I should certainly hope so.

You don't know my ilk as you don't know me.

Superiority complex can be a problem when there are only 2 days in a year.

Oh, ignore the OP - there is no thread ownership in NS General and no way to limit who posts to a thread. I'd love to hear the story.
I was a shift manager at a fast food restaurant when I was a teenager, for about 3 weeks the drive through register had been short, by a LOT, by that Friday night they were missing $75. I had looked and audited and anything else I could do to find the money, the owner assumed that I had stolen it since I was "new" (had only been there for 4 months) so he told me that he was placing me under "citizens arrest" for theft and made me wait in his office until the police arrived. He called it in to the police like a robbery and said that I had tried to "empty the registers" so when they got there and heard the real story they told me I could go home, but that he had the right to take the money out of my check.

I was pissed. I didn't have enough money for them to be taking $75, so I decided that if I was responsible for the money, I was at least going to find out where it was going. I did. The owner's grandson was stealing it.

He would ring things up that were more expensive and then change the order before they would get to the window and pocket the difference. For example if you buy a sandwich and fries and a drink separate it would be $8 but if you bought the combo it was $6, the screen back where we were didn't show anything but the sandwich and fries, so I didn't notice anything changed, and since he was changing the "final order" the order, it messed up the audit.


By the way, "citizen's arrest" does not exist here. It would instead be a crime called "olaga frihetsberövande" which means "unlawful deprivation of liberty".
interesting.

You don't know my ilk as you don't know me.

What you've written so far is more than sufficient to dismiss you.

Superiority complex can be a problem when there are only 2 days in a year.

As can non sequiturs, apparently.

I was a shift manager at a fast food restaurant when I was a teenager, for about 3 weeks the drive through register had been short, by a LOT, by that Friday night they were missing $75. I had looked and audited and anything else I could do to find the money, the owner assumed that I had stolen it since I was "new" (had only been there for 4 months) so he told me that he was placing me under "citizens arrest" for theft and made me wait in his office until the police arrived. He called it in to the police like a robbery and said that I had tried to "empty the registers" so when they got there and heard the real story they told me I could go home, but that he had the right to take the money out of my check.

I was pissed. I didn't have enough money for them to be taking $75, so I decided that if I was responsible for the money, I was at least going to find out where it was going. I did. The owner's grandson was stealing it.

He would ring things up that were more expensive and then change the order before they would get to the window and pocket the difference. For example if you buy a sandwich and fries and a drink separate it would be $8 but if you bought the combo it was $6, the screen back where we were didn't show anything but the sandwich and fries, so I didn't notice anything changed, and since he was changing the "final order" the order, it messed up the audit.



interesting.
What a tosspot. Did you tell his grandad?

What you've written so far is more than sufficient to dismiss you.

Don't be so quick to judge and get a sense of humour.

--snippage--

What a douche - both the grandfather and the grandson.

interesting.

I wouldn't think so.

What a tosspot. Did you tell his grandad?
yeah, he said I didn't have "proof" and that I was being a "bitch" because his grandson probably didn't want to date me (which was untrue, he asked me out at least 20 times and I always said no)

What a douche - both the grandfather and the grandson.
yep, figured that out too late. :(



I wouldn't think so.
well, it's just that things are different here, like I can legally shoot someone for being on my property, I don't even have to prove that they were going to hurt me, I can just shoot them for being here.

well, it's just that things are different here, like I can legally shoot someone for being on my property, I don't even have to prove that they were going to hurt me, I can just shoot them for being here.

Loopy.

Loopy.

I know, it's pretty screwed up.

I know, it's pretty screwed up.

It worked in that film with Keifer Sutherland - were he raped the little girl and the mother killed him in the end by luring him into her house.

It worked in that film with Keifer Sutherland - were he raped the little girl and the mother killed him in the end by luring him into her house.

I don't say I wouldn't blame her, but that def. shouldn't be legal.

I don't say I wouldn't blame her, but that def. shouldn't be legal.

Well from what I remember she found out where he lived and broke into his appartment (deffo knowing he wasn't in) and left a bit of evidence to show she had been there. (There had been a bit of kuffuffle after the court case which got dismissed on a technicality so they had knocked heads a few times since). So he sees that she's been in his place and goes round to their house where she is waiting with a gun.

Found it - called 'Eye for an eye' (1996)

I was a shift manager at a fast food restaurant when I was a teenager, for about 3 weeks the drive through register had been short, by a LOT, by that Friday night they were missing $75. I had looked and audited and anything else I could do to find the money, the owner assumed that I had stolen it since I was "new" (had only been there for 4 months) so he told me that he was placing me under "citizens arrest" for theft and made me wait in his office until the police arrived. He called it in to the police like a robbery and said that I had tried to "empty the registers" so when they got there and heard the real story they told me I could go home, but that he had the right to take the money out of my check.

I was pissed. I didn't have enough money for them to be taking $75, so I decided that if I was responsible for the money, I was at least going to find out where it was going. I did. The owner's grandson was stealing it.

He would ring things up that were more expensive and then change the order before they would get to the window and pocket the difference. For example if you buy a sandwich and fries and a drink separate it would be $8 but if you bought the combo it was $6, the screen back where we were didn't show anything but the sandwich and fries, so I didn't notice anything changed, and since he was changing the "final order" the order, it messed up the audit.

That's fucked up - there was no proof (let alone any evidence) that you stole the $75 yet the employer could legally take it from your wages? You sure the police were right (in England they get a lot of things wrong in areas they have no expertise in such as Emplyment Regulations). I woulda took my employer to an Emplyment Tribunal to get the $75 back plus damages for emotional distress.

That's fucked up - there was no proof (let alone any evidence) that you stole the $75 yet the employer could legally take it from your wages? You sure the police were right (in England they get a lot of things wrong in areas they have no expertise in such as Emplyment Regulations). I woulda took my employer to an Emplyment Tribunal to get the $75 back plus damages for emotional distress.

I was homeless at the time, I didn't really have any time or money to question my boss, when it was the only job I could get.

I was homeless at the time, I didn't really have any time or money to question my boss, when it was the only job I could get.

:(

I guess it's like in the UK then - where you don't get proper rights until you've worked in a place for a certain amount of time (6 months I believe) so you can't do much about your employer unless he sexually harasses you or something (and here we'd get Legal Aid for that I believe. I also think we'd get Legal Aid for an Employment Tribunal). But how long ago was it? Could you have him prosecuted for theft or something now? And what's tha name of the "restaurant" (real name: burger bar, as they're nothing like restaurants despite what they claim)?

I was a shift manager at a fast food restaurant when I was a teenager, for about 3 weeks the drive through register had been short, by a LOT, by that Friday night they were missing $75. I had looked and audited and anything else I could do to find the money, the owner assumed that I had stolen it since I was "new" (had only been there for 4 months) so he told me that he was placing me under "citizens arrest" for theft and made me wait in his office until the police arrived. He called it in to the police like a robbery and said that I had tried to "empty the registers" so when they got there and heard the real story they told me I could go home, but that he had the right to take the money out of my check.

I was pissed. I didn't have enough money for them to be taking $75, so I decided that if I was responsible for the money, I was at least going to find out where it was going. I did. The owner's grandson was stealing it.

He would ring things up that were more expensive and then change the order before they would get to the window and pocket the difference. For example if you buy a sandwich and fries and a drink separate it would be $8 but if you bought the combo it was $6, the screen back where we were didn't show anything but the sandwich and fries, so I didn't notice anything changed, and since he was changing the "final order" the order, it messed up the audit.



interesting.

That manager was an idiot. Really, you shouldn't be placing anyone under citizen's arrest unless you know the law. He has to directly observe you committing the crime. You could have charged him with kidnapping.

Glad you found the culprit. Good detective work!:)

:(

I guess it's like in the UK then - where you don't get proper rights until you've worked in a place for a certain amount of time (6 months I believe) so you can't do much about your employer unless he sexually harasses you or something (and here we'd get Legal Aid for that I believe. I also think we'd get Legal Aid for an Employment Tribunal). But how long ago was it? Could you have him prosecuted for theft or something now? And what's tha name of the "restaurant" (real name: burger bar, as they're nothing like restaurants despite what they claim)?

it's been about 10 years.

I seriously knew that he couldn't hold me, but I didn't want to start any shit, so I stayed.

being 15 and too young to work there, and being homeless and living in my car, I was terrified that he would tell the cops and they would take me back home, or worse put me into foster care or something.

it's been about 10 years.

I seriously knew that he couldn't hold me, but I didn't want to start any shit, so I stayed.

being 15 and too young to work there, and being homeless and living in my car, I was terrified that he would tell the cops and they would take me back home, or worse put me into foster care or something.

Being a teenager can suck sometimes.

it's been about 10 years.

I seriously knew that he couldn't hold me, but I didn't want to start any shit, so I stayed.

being 15 and too young to work there, and being homeless and living in my car, I was terrified that he would tell the cops and they would take me back home, or worse put me into foster care or something.

Cool, you were a hobo fellon. Did you have a pole with a hanky on the end with all your possessions in?

Cool, you were a hobo fellon. Did you have a pole with a hanky on the end with all your possessions in?

I did not. Everything I owned was locked in the trunk of my car. I did make it out with that, which makes me feel like I was only semi-homeless.

I did not. Everything I owned was locked in the trunk of my car. I did make it out with that, which makes me feel like I was only semi-homeless.

Yeah, but being American it didn't even need to feel like semi-homeless. You could have replaced the hood ornament with a plastic flamingo - and hey presto - a mini trailerhome.

Yeah, but being American it didn't even need to feel like semi-homeless. You could have replaced the hood ornament with a plastic flamingo - and hey presto - a mini trailerhome.

:p

It felt pretty homeless most of the time, especially when I couldn't find a place to park, couldn't get mail, and had to sleep out there in a small car that leaked when it was tornado season.

I think some people are confusing Tony Martin with that guy in the U.S. who shot a kid in the back about a year ago that we had a thread on awhile back. The former shot a burglar, the latter shot someone who was just walking near his house.