NationStates Jolt Archive

In my long time searching these General forums, I have come to notice that many people are quite anti-nationalistic. So, in true NS style, I have decided to create a poll that has absolutely no scientific value what-so-ever.

The question is, how nationalistic are you? Are you a jack-booted fascist, or do you hate your country with a hatred that is blacker than the blackest black times infinity?

*poll coming*

I'm not fond of my country at all. (Britain). They've just ballsed up, badly.

"Not really" is my answer.

The poll is up.

I don't own a country, so the question's a bit superfluous.

Well, I have a kind of divided identity (British-Irish, fucking mongrel), so I suppose you could call me dual-natioanlist. :D

I would actually consider myself a sort of nationalist, even an ethnic nationalist. I don't buy into the kind of Steve Sailer "citizenship" philosophy that you can naturalise everyone and anyone into a particular identity. Especially as national identity is such a fuzzy thing, as Gordo's clumsy pronouncements have made clear.

I base my ideas more on the idea of national/ethnic self-determination. There's not really a lot to be proud of in Britain at the moment, but given the level of public apathy and rootlessness, that's even more reason to be a nationalist.

Oh yeah, and it would be great if Ireland could have those six counties back. ;)

I have no nationalism. I believe that, although it sometimes unites smaller groups, it inevitably divides the world. I have no patriotism either, because I believe it to be the beginning of the road to nationalism.

Oh yeah, and it would be great if Ireland could have those six counties back. ;)

What for?

Poland is good enough, but would be better if Kaczyński was not ruling over it. I can't wait until that neo-nazi's term ends.

What for? It would be an excuse to throw a massive party with all the Irish people I know. Just as long as they wait until I'm past the legal drinking age.

What for?
Kicks and giggles. Plus we sure as hell don't want Northern Ireland any more.

It would be an excuse to throw a massive party with all the Irish people I know. Just as long as they wait until I'm past the legal drinking age.

I think you're an imposter... no Irish ever needed an excuse for a massive party.

Kicks and giggles. Plus we sure as hell don't want Northern Ireland any more.

From what I can tell, neither does the Republic.

I think you're an imposter... no Irish ever needed an excuse for a massive party.
Or indeed felt the need to wait for the legal drinking age.
From what I can tell, neither does the Republic.
Well then, let's both leave them high and dry on their own - problem solved, if vaguely.

I love my country but I'm not afraid to criticize what I do not like.

I think you're an imposter... no Irish ever needed an excuse for a massive party. I'm in diaspora (http://www.lehman.cuny.edu/lehman/irishamericanstudies/imagebank/diaspora.gif). And under 18.
From what I can tell, neither does the Republic. A friend of mine suggested doing to NI what Mexico is doing to the US - moving loads of immigrants in so they can vote to become one with the Republic.

Or we could just let the six counties become a separate country, watch it fade, and then the Irish can take over the deserted Mayan ruins, as it were.

Isn't this great, we start by discussing nationalism and then move on to the six counties. Never fails!

My relationship with my country (the United States) has been a different one than most people with theirs. I have lived less than half my life there, but it has always been important. The reason being is that I have grown up in a diplomatic family (my father is a US diplomat). Therefore, I have a unique view of America, both a view from the inside and the outside.

Although I love what the United States stands for ("life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"), I also know that our government has rarely (if ever) been as wonderful as our schools would have us think of it. Most of my education has been in schools outside of the United States as well, so my education isn't quite as full of propaganda as our public school system.

I have also, from a young age, been surrounded by poverty (seeing how all of my life that I have spent overseas has been in the "third world"), so when I come back to the United States, the waste and excesses of the United States (and the entire First World) seem to be all the more evident. But I have also seen the good that the United States has accomplished in the world (contrary to what many would have you believe, the United States DOES accomplish good things as well as bad), bringing me a deeper, different respect for my nation than many Americans have.

I'm in diaspora (http://www.lehman.cuny.edu/lehman/irishamericanstudies/imagebank/diaspora.gif). And under 18.

So? The drunke here tend to start at around 14 or so....


A friend of mine suggested doing to NI what Mexico is doing to the US - moving loads of immigrants in so they can vote to become one with the Republic.

Or we could just let the six counties become a separate country, watch it fade, and then the Irish can take over the deserted Mayan ruins, as it were.

Isn't this great, we start by discussing nationalism and then move on to the six counties. Never fails!

As I said, from what I can tell here, nobody particularly wants the six counties as part of the Republic... they much prefer leaving it with the UK, so they can drie up and do some cheap shopping there now and then.

I don't like my country (US), but it has some redeeming features... wait, no, not really.

So? The drunke here tend to start at around 14 or so.... I'm not a fucking scanger, kay? :mad: Jackeens aren't civilised like the kerrymen are.

As I said, from what I can tell here, nobody particularly wants the six counties as part of the Republic... they much prefer leaving it with the UK, so they can drie up and do some cheap shopping there now and then. I really do think that the sane people left Northern Ireland and the crazies are left there. Like that Michael Stone guy who stormed Stormfront - oops, I mean Stormont.

I don't really like the historical Irish whininess (up until the Celtic Tiger), the continuing slavish conformity and backbiting, and the new gross materialism, but there's a lot to like. I just need to figure out what it is…

I don't like my country (US), but it has some redeeming features... wait, no, not really. Your country pretty much rocks, and that's coming from someone in Europe. If a European can say America is good, so can you. Chin up.

Hey, guys, there are enough Northern Ireland threads on here. If you're so eager to debate it, go make another.

Soluis: Like what? :eek:

Hey, guys, there are enough Northern Ireland threads on here. If you're so eager to debate it, go make another. What's to debate? Everyone's sick of the whole stinking mess, even the Northern Irish.

But yeah, is silly how discussions on nationalism always veer NI.

I'm an Internationalist first and foremost, so naturally I don't have a particular zeal for my own country. I feel less like a citizen of my country, and more of a citizen of the world. Every country has it's own positive and negative attributes. None of them are superior in my eyes.

Patriotic American

Patriotic Americanthese days that means nationalistic.

these days that means nationalistic.

Not necessarily but then, you would not know the difference between being a patriot and a nationalist. I myself am a patriot but I do not agree with what my nation has done all the time. If one was nationalistic, then he/she would agree with them all of the time regardless.

The question is, how nationalistic are you? Are you a jack-booted fascist, or do you hate your country with a hatred that is blacker than the blackest black times infinity?Uhm... I'm a jack-booted anti-Fascist.

I'm anti-nationalistic, if such a word exists. Sadly nationalism no longer means feeling honoured to be part of a community, a history and a culture. It no longer means willingness to sacrifice for the progress, betterment, unity & inclusiveness of that community & culture. I don't know if it ever did, but I thought so once & it is what I think it should mean. Alas, all it means presently, is revering authority, and usually thoroughly malicious authority at that.

I don't believe in the concept of nation states. I believe in freedom of movement & association. I don't believe in elitism & exclusiveness, I believe in unity & inclusiveness. I don't believe in obedience & status quo, I believe challenging each other is for the betterment of all, individually & as a whole.

In short, I have lokal patriotismus seeping out my every pore, and extend it both nationally & globally. I love the country that adopted me, and I strive to show as much by doing all I can to improve upon it. That includes being highly critical of the things we do as a society like government & social norms.

Uhm... I'm a jack-booted anti-Fascist.

I'm anti-nationalistic, if such a word exists. Sadly nationalism no longer means feeling honoured to be part of a community, a history and a culture. It no longer means willingness to sacrifice for the progress, betterment, unity & inclusiveness of that community & culture. I don't know if it ever did, but I thought so once & it is what I think it should mean. Alas, all it means presently, is revering authority, and usually thoroughly malicious authority at that.

I don't believe in the concept of nation states. I believe in freedom of movement & association. I don't believe in elitism & exclusiveness, I believe in unity & inclusiveness. I don't believe in obedience & status quo, I believe challenging each other is for the betterment of all, individually & as a whole.

In short, I have lokal patriotismus seeping out my every pore, and extend it both nationally & globally. I love the country that adopted me, and I strive to show as much by doing all I can to improve upon it. That includes being highly critical of the things we do as a society like government & social norms. In short, you seem to be letting the misdeeds of Hitler, Mussolini et al dictate your dislike for nationalism.

Nationalism has been a great force for freedom in many places - Finland, Ireland, India and America, for example.

Besides, we need nationstates. Humans are inherently tribal and you can't expect a Scotsman from the Hebrides to identify much with a Khoisan from South Africa. If anything, nationstates that coexist peacefully should (and largely do, in Europe's case - compare the Balkans now to when they were "unified") prevent us tearing at each other's throats.

Soluis: Like what? You've got more free speech than us, and you lucky bastards can have gunz.

Plus sometimes your accents can be kinda cute [/californian]

Really don't care.

i like the area of my country i live in, mostly because most other people i know and love live there and because i've spend the largest portion of my life there. But i don't really like my country, although i do like some aspects of my country. i'm quite proud of Belgian beer for instance.
so i don't think i could be called a nationalist.

In short, you seem to be letting the misdeeds of Hitler, Mussolini et al dictate your dislike for nationalism.Not at all. I'm letting self-identifying nationalists dictate my dislike of nationalisms. They are, by and large, xenophobic wannabe-fascists.Nationalism has been a great force for freedom in many places - Finland, Ireland, India and America, for example.I'm not disputing that. On the contrary, I think it's fairly safe to assume nationalism has been a catalyst for positive change in pretty much every human society through history. It has, however, also frequently been the opposite.Besides, we need nationstates.Why?Humans are inherently tribal and you can't expect a Scotsman from the Hebrides to identify much with a Khoisan from South Africa. If anything, nationstates that coexist peacefully should (and largely do, in Europe's case - compare the Balkans now to when they were "unified") prevent us tearing at each other's throats.It'd seem to me that allowing individuals, organisations & communities to associate freely, would be a far more efficient of reaching that goal. The arbitrary division & exclusion of comminities & individuals seems counterproductive, and seems impossible to avoid in a world of nation states.You've got more free speech than us, and you lucky bastards can have gunz.Unlike you, I think America is a blight on the planet. But I'll have to agree with you here. There's a number of great things about the US, the two you've just mentioned included.Plus sometimes your accents can be kinda cute [/californian]Are you high?

Not really. I'm never accepted as being the same nationality is any of my peers which ever side of the border I'm on, so why should I feel nationalistic about anything?

my nationality is of no ideological importance to me whatsoever.

Not at all. I'm letting self-identifying nationalists dictate my dislike of nationalisms. They are, by and large, xenophobic wannabe-fascists. I could just as easily say that anti-nationalists are, by and large, out-of-touch privileged hippies who adhere to fashionably nonconformist ideologies and don't give a damn about their own people. Both of us would probably be right to some extent.
I'm not disputing that. On the contrary, I think it's fairly safe to assume nationalism has been a catalyst for positive change in pretty much every human society through history. It has, however, also frequently been the opposite. By "frequently", you really mean in the 20th century. And that was generally because they thought they had a manifest right to nick other people's lands. This is obviously not right. But you could just as easily say that Europeans shooting abos were nationalists, and that the same abos who wanted to keep their land for themselves were nationalists.
Why? Cos we're all different. Nerds and jocks group together in schools; different cultures group together in the real world.
It'd seem to me that allowing individuals, organisations & communities to associate freely, would be a far more efficient of reaching that goal. The arbitrary division & exclusion of comminities & individuals seems counterproductive, and seems impossible to avoid in a world of nation states. It would cause problems if, say, thirty million Japanese moved to France and thirty million Frenchmen moved to Japan. It's not at all arbitrary; people are simply different, and wanting to be among your own kind is a natural and healthy instinct. Nationalism to the extent of forcible segregation is unhealthy, but keeping cultures distinct is a good thing. Especially as the popular reaction to multiculturalism after being exposed to it is tending rapidly towards disdain.
Unlike you, I think America is a blight on the planet. But I'll have to agree with you here. There's a number of great things about the US, the two you've just mentioned included. Plus I'd be speaking German if it weren't for the USA. Well actually I probably would be stuck in Ireland - what did Hitler think of Celts?

Why is the USA a blight?
Are you high? Nay?

Poland is good enough, but would be better if Kaczyński was not ruling over it. I can't wait until that neo-nazi's term ends.

If you don't like poland just move to Morecambe in Lancashire like about 500million polish people already have.

If you don't like poland just move to Morecambe in Lancashire like about 500million polish people already have.
What, I had no idea there were many Poles up north too. :eek: Well, at the university I'm at there are quite a few, but they are students. Pretty amiable bunch.

I don't like my country (US), but it has some redeeming features... wait, no, not really.
Alright, so how about you come and live in Europe and I'll move to the US? Sound good to you? Then you, along with some random Italians, can bitch all you want about the US and call for Nancy Pelosi to come to the world's rescue (yes, this did happen). And I get to escape all the whingers over here.

In fact, it would be ideal if almost all anti-US Americans did this, and all pro-US Europeans migrated. Then Europe can reach its full potential...

Sounds like a plan.

*flies to Germany* w00t.

What, I had no idea there were many Poles up north too. :eek: Well, at the university I'm at there are quite a few, but they are students. Pretty amiable bunch.

there's loads of polish people in edinburg too. most of my workmates are polish, or czech. and on my street there's about 5 polish delicatessens (it is a very long street). i like polish sausage :) (lol).

My country (England) gets a big fat 'meh'.

Not really. I'm never accepted as being the same nationality is any of my peers which ever side of the border I'm on, so why should I feel nationalistic about anything?It's the strangest thing, init? I was accepted without reservation (in as much as a dirty punker's accepted anywhere), but the girl I pursuaded to come settle down with me isn't. I'm guessing it's the nougaty colour that does it.
In an ironic twist, she's even less palatable to her ethnic minority here, and unlike the majority, they make no attempt to hide the fact. It's so much fun riding 'round in the subway when old veiled cunts curse you to hell & call your girl a dirty whore.I could just as easily say that anti-nationalists are, by and large, out-of-touch privileged hippies who adhere to fashionably nonconformist ideologies and don't give a damn about their own people. Both of us would probably be right to some extent.I doubt it, but I can only speak from a local perspective. I don't see a great many privileged hippies running around here. Hardly any, to be honest.By "frequently", you really mean in the 20th century. And that was generally because they thought they had a manifest right to nick other people's lands. This is obviously not right. But you could just as easily say that Europeans shooting abos were nationalists, and that the same abos who wanted to keep their land for themselves were nationalists.No I don't. You just explained why. Isn't it nice to agree?Cos we're all different. Nerds and jocks group together in schools; different cultures group together in the real world.What does this have to do with nation states?It would cause problems if, say, thirty million Japanese moved to France and thirty million Frenchmen moved to Japan.Of course it would. Regardless of the existence of nation states.It's not at all arbitrary; people are simply different, and wanting to be among your own kind is a natural and healthy instinct. Nationalism to the extent of forcible segregation is unhealthy, but keeping cultures distinct is a good thing.I'm in no way disagreeing. I just fail to see how it's a justification for nation states. Arguably a syndicalist organisation form is much better at handeling exactly these mechanics.Plus I'd be speaking German if it weren't for the USA. Well actually I probably would be stuck in Ireland - what did Hitler think of Celts?I doubt the III Reich would've prevailed. I think it's more likely you, I & possibly the Americans would speaking Russian. Either way, it's history. Arguing about it is pointless.Why is the USA a blight?Because of it's post WWII foreign policy of global hegenomy through militarism.Nay?It was an attempt at humour...

there's loads of polish people in edinburg too. most of my workmates are polish, or czech. and on my street there's about 5 polish delicatessens (it is a very long street). i like polish sausage :) (lol).
So do I (but I'm sure not the type you mean). :) Czech people are hot too. ^^

This is quite funny (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHRf3HihCsU) by the way - listen to what she says to her mate about Polish workers. :D

Because of it's post WWII foreign policy of global hegenomy through militarism.
Yeah, it's a real shame the US had to go down that avenue.

.I doubt it, but I can only speak from a local perspective. I don't see a great many privileged hippies running around here. Hardly any, to be honest. And your average bloke who mutters darkly about forrrrners probably isn't a bad bloke. Even the xenophobic types often seem more admirable than the insipid self-haters one sees these days.

It would be the "class of 68" that is actually running the show. Gubmint types who consistently blither about multiculturalism and then say Muslim extremists are "as bad as the BNP". The BNP are very shady indeed, but surely they can summon just a touch of absolutism to admit that Muslim extremists are a greater danger to Britlund?

In other words, I prefer Lovecraft's insane rantings on drinking hot blood from Celtic skulls (with a "Hrrr!" for good measure) and the "swarming" Chinese to the insipid dreck offered to us that drains all that's noble in national identity for fear of resurrecting the old ghosts of Hitler.

Holy shit. I haven't even been reading Nietszsche.
No I don't. You just explained why. Isn't it nice to agree? Yes tis. But I was highlighting the potential of the love of one's own people to fight injustice and even improve your own country in non-violent ways in the normal course of things.

What I am ultimately trying to say is that love of one's own people is not necessarily, and should not be, hatred of the foreigner. Plus it leads to great music. Think Finlandia.
Of course it would. Regardless of the existence of nation states.I'm in no way disagreeing. I just fail to see how it's a justification for nation states. Arguably a syndicalist organisation form is much better at handeling exactly these mechanics. But that syndicalist organisation would have to be a world government. This would probably not be good.

I suppose E Pluribus Unum is good for American euromutts but not for us Europids thanks. We've been at each other's throats for thousands of years and even the Irish and Basques seem to have stopped lately. I don't think this is due to the EU, which everyone in Britain says they despise as a matter of custom and which is not really very powerful anyway.
I doubt the III Reich would've prevailed. I think it's more likely you, I & possibly the Americans would speaking Russian. Either way, it's history. Arguing about it is pointless. Of course it's pointless; pointless arguments are fun because they are perennial.
Because of it's post WWII foreign policy of global hegenomy through militarism. Global hegemony? The domino theory was about stopping communism. The Russians tried the basic same thing in Afghanistan and the same thing happened. It was a good idea implemented badly. Remember though, you can blame Hitler for all this as the Americans didn't want to try isolation again.
It was an attempt at humour... Quite.

Any nationalistic fevour I feel is pretty much only over the rugby. Obviously I have my opionions of such topics as NI and what have you, but they are too complex issues to get into a fevour about.

However, Ireland playing France? I nearly screamed myself to death and the end of that one, and maybe for a breif moment I did think that France should be invaded, but only for a second! And I did email my friends in Brittany to say congratuations.

Anyway, nothing matters as long as we beat the English, so I will definatly be screaming death apon England on Saturday, but only for 80 minuites. After that I'll go back to my calm self and continue to enjoy all the benefits of living in England with my English education, friends and future.

My country is great, although I wouldn't follow it mindlessly anywhere

Nationalism killed more people than Nazism and Communism combined.

That's all you need to know about it. It's yet another excuse for people to hurt others if they don't do exactly as you tell them.

Nationalism killed more people than Nazism and Communism combined.

That's all you need to know about it. It's yet another excuse for people to hurt others if they don't do exactly as you tell them.

Thats because the Nazis and Comunists were nationalists. Whatever the belief system, its all the same underneath.

Thats because the Nazis and Comunists were nationalists. Whatever the belief system, its all the same underneath.
Hey, in that case, nationalism killed even more people.

Fact of the matter is that nationalism in my country resulted in probably a hundred million+ people getting killed and the place getting destroyed.

When instead a society formed with a different understanding of nationalism (namely that it was something to be wary of), it made people rich, educated and healthy. As well as reasonably happy.

In my long time searching these General forums, I have come to notice that many people are quite anti-nationalistic. So, in true NS style, I have decided to create a poll that has absolutely no scientific value what-so-ever.

The question is, how nationalistic are you? Are you a jack-booted fascist, or do you hate your country with a hatred that is blacker than the blackest black times infinity?

*poll coming*

Well, my country (Britain) has made some of the most significant achievements in the world, but it has also done plenty of bad stuff. At the moment it seems content with mediocrity. Due to this changeability, I am not nationalistic.

Nationalism killed more people than Nazism and Communism combined.

That's all you need to know about it. It's yet another excuse for people to hurt others if they don't do exactly as you tell them. Gah. You're letting the terrorists win. You're recoiling from the fascists of the 20th century and repudiating the entire basis of nationalism as the baby in the bathwater.

Of course, the question has to be asked - what is nationalism?

I prefer "ethno-national self-determination" but that isn't catchy.

The Nazis and Communists could be said to be anti-nationalist in many ways. They spat on Polish, French, Czech, Georgian, and all other kinds of nationalism.

Of course, the question has to be asked - what is nationalism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Gottfried_Herder#Volk_and_Nation

Basically something out of an insane asylum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Gottfried_Herder#Volk_and_Nation

Basically something out of an insane asylum. Right, and Locke defines freedom itself, does he?

Holy shit. I haven't even been reading Nietszsche.

Of course you haven't, because then you would know that Nietzsche was a proponent of cosmopolitanism (what he called being "a good European"). He in fact despised his contemporaries from Germany.

Right, and Locke defines freedom itself, does he?
No. But then, I could give you a billion writers talking about freedom, everyone defining it a little bit differently.

Nationalism on the other hand always ends up the same. Whether one makes it as explicit as Herder, or treats it implicitly, it always seems to try and make the "nation" something more tangible than a piece of paper that says "this is the area ruled by this government".

Whether you call it "Volksgeist" or for example "the American people", it's the same appeal to a spectre that you somehow hope will justify whatever irrational wants and hates you might have.

And your average bloke who mutters darkly about forrrrners probably isn't a bad bloke. Even the xenophobic types often seem more admirable than the insipid self-haters one sees these days.

It would be the "class of 68" that is actually running the show. Gubmint types who consistently blither about multiculturalism and then say Muslim extremists are "as bad as the BNP". The BNP are very shady indeed, but surely they can summon just a touch of absolutism to admit that Muslim extremists are a greater danger to Britlund?

In other words, I prefer Lovecraft's insane rantings on drinking hot blood from Celtic skulls (with a "Hrrr!" for good measure) and the "swarming" Chinese to the insipid dreck offered to us that drains all that's noble in national identity for fear of resurrecting the old ghosts of Hitler.

Holy shit. I haven't even been reading Nietszsche.You lost me. Utterly.Yes tis. But I was highlighting the potential of the love of one's own people to fight injustice and even improve your own country in non-violent ways in the normal course of things.And I still agree with you :p What I am ultimately trying to say is that love of one's own people is not necessarily, and should not be, hatred of the foreigner. Plus it leads to great music. Think Finlandia.Again, I completely agree. This is what I was trying to say in my first post in this thread. Thought I'd managed too.But that syndicalist organisation would have to be a world government. This would probably not be good.That's an oxymoron but I agree a world government isn't a good idea.I suppose E Pluribus Unum is good for American euromutts but not for us Europids thanks. We've been at each other's throats for thousands of years and even the Irish and Basques seem to have stopped lately. I don't think this is due to the EU, which everyone in Britain says they despise as a matter of custom and which is not really very powerful anyway.
Of course it's pointless; pointless arguments are fun because they are perennial.Not to rain on your parade or anything, but I humbly suggest you look up syndicalism. Incidentally, I'm from & live in Northern Europe.Global hegemony?I prefer not playing the blame game. The fact is US foreign policy is about establishing global hegemony through any means. Both goal & method is reprehensible & at present unjustifiable. Yet it's maintained. There's no point in blaming past administrations for this. They are past, and unable to address the problem. The present is another matter entirely.

I'm not interested in excuses either. That the US economy is based on militaristic expansionism does not justify the practice any more than I can justify shooting you dead & flogging your possions by saying it'll increase my wealth.Quite.Can't win 'em all.

IMHO, nationalism is a concept invented by the ruling classes to justify leading people off to die in some silly little war.

Really how daft can you get? Somebody drew some lines on a map, therefore I'm supposed to have something fundamentally in common with everyone else in the same imaginary box?
Once upon a time, you could have argued that there would tend to be a genetic link between you and the rest of your nation, but not any more. The bloodlines are thoroughly intertwined by now.

If you don't like poland just move to Morecambe in Lancashire like about 500million polish people already have.
the problem is with Kaczyński, not Poland. Once he's out of office, thing will be better. Unless he actually manages to make a new constitution, then I'm going to flee from Poland before it starts looking too much like Nazi Germany.

IMHO, nationalism is a concept invented by the ruling classes to justify leading people off to die in some silly little war.

Really how daft can you get? Somebody drew some lines on a map, therefore I'm supposed to have something fundamentally in common with everyone else in the same imaginary box?
Once upon a time, you could have argued that there would tend to be a genetic link between you and the rest of your nation, but not any more. The bloodlines are thoroughly intertwined by now.

I agree with some of that. In fact, the bloodlines have been intertwined for a while now. British people are a mix of Celts, Picts, Danish, Norwegians, Romans and Saxons to name a few.

I welcome our insect overlords, unless they're really gross.

Oh yeah, and it would be great if Ireland could have those six counties back. ;)

ahh, i live for that day.


I really like the U.S. we're free to do alot of things and can't be persecuted. the only thing i don't like is all the idiots in D.C.

I do like my country. Though not to the point I where I think it is better than any others or would engage in violence to preserve it.

Plus I'd be speaking German if it weren't for the USA. Well actually I probably would be stuck in Ireland - what did Hitler think of Celts?
No you wouldn't, you'd be speaking Russian. By late '42, the Soviets were winning the war, and they'd have simply taken over the whole of Europe were it not for the US invading France.

No you wouldn't, you'd be speaking Russian. By late '42, the Soviets were winning the war, and they'd have simply taken over the whole of Europe were it not for the US invading France.

:rolleyes:

If you don't like poland just move to Morecambe in Lancashire like about 500million polish people already have.
I'd be slightly worried if the Poles had multiplied their population to that extent, to be honest. And also slightly skeptical of the Census (although it's already dodgy due to poll tax and people pretending not to exist so as to avoid it).

:rolleyes:
Any way at all that you can disprove this, then?

No you wouldn't, you'd be speaking Russian. By late '42, the Soviets were winning the war, and they'd have simply taken over the whole of Europe were it not for the US invading France.

And the Brits, Free French, Czechs, Poles, and Canadians.

And the Brits, Free French, Czechs, Poles, and Canadians.
Yes, those also, s'true. But the USSR were the real "winners" of world war 2.

Yes, those also, s'true. But the USSR were the real "winners" of world war 2.

To a point, I can agree with you.

Yes, those also, s'true. But the USSR were the real "winners" of world war 2.

And losers. They lost more fighting men than anyone else in the war, and many communists, and russian jews were sent to the camps.

And losers. They lost more fighting men than anyone else in the war, and many communists, and russian jews were sent to the camps.

I don't think Stalin was too dismayed.

And losers. They lost more fighting men than anyone else in the war, and many communists, and russian jews were sent to the camps.
Which is why I put the word 'winners' in quotation marks, to show that their victory was hardly that.

Gah. You're letting the terrorists win. You're recoiling from the fascists of the 20th century and repudiating the entire basis of nationalism as the baby in the bathwater.

Of course, the question has to be asked - what is nationalism?

I prefer "ethno-national self-determination" but that isn't catchy.

The Nazis and Communists could be said to be anti-nationalist in many ways. They spat on Polish, French, Czech, Georgian, and all other kinds of nationalism.

Surely the point that they spat on other countries is a display of nationalism? Hitler hated other peoples he considered subhuman, and invaded and killed. He was trying to make Germany great.

I agree with some of that. In fact, the bloodlines have been intertwined for a while now.

Indeed. That's why I used the phrases 'once upon a time', 'could have argued' and 'tend to be'.
Apparently, the dominant element in the British gene pool is a tribe of Spanish fishermen who showed up shortly after the last ice age ended. So next time I hear a British person whining about how they don't like immigrants, I'm going to tell them to sod off back to Spain where they belong.

Indeed. That's why I used the phrases 'once upon a time', 'could have argued' and 'tend to be'.
Apparently, the dominant element in the British gene pool is a tribe of Spanish fishermen who showed up shortly after the last ice age ended. So next time I hear a British person whining about how they don't like immigrants, I'm going to tell them to sod off back to Spain where they belong. Apparently a lot of British people (Beckam?) are doing that. Pisses off the Spanish a small bit.

I remember a news story from a few weeks back - apparently 7 men in Yorkshire having possible West African blood from a few tens of generations back proves that "we're all the same really". Incredible.

Hey, if I didn't care about my country, I wouldn't complain about it so much. :D I want the U.S. to do things right, and the fact that it does so many things wrong seriously annoys me and makes me want to fix the problems. "My country right or wrong" is just plain wrong.

I don't own a country, so the question's a bit superfluous.
You don't own your parents and relatives, but do you love them?
You don't own your friends, but do you love them?

there are many things that one doesn't "own" yet people love or hate em. so Ownership isn't a factor in this case.

Apparently a lot of British people (Beckam?) are doing that. Pisses off the Spanish a small bit.

I remember a news story from a few weeks back - apparently 7 men in Yorkshire having possible West African blood from a few tens of generations back proves that "we're all the same really". Incredible.
Reminds me of a few "I'm not racist but..." kind of people on TV who were moaning about immigrants not integrating in British society, all terrorists, some of them have off coloured skin, etc, etc, from an Anglo-Cypriot community composed of a colony of similar minded Brits.

Pricks.

You don't own your parents and relatives, but do you love them?
You don't own your friends, but do you love them?

there are many things that one doesn't "own" yet people love or hate em. so Ownership isn't a factor in this case.

Parents and relatives, I'd definitely say no.
Yes, I do love several people, but I tend not to love things... seems very weird to me. And to love a concept seems even weirder.

Parents and relatives, I'd definitely say no.
Yes, I do love several people, but I tend not to love things... seems very weird to me. And to love a concept seems even weirder.
fair enough. :cool:

but what about the concept of Freedom, Self-determination, Rights, Responsibilities, laws, justice and other concepts?

fair enough. :cool:

but what about the concept of Freedom, Self-determination, Rights, Responsibilities, laws, justice and other concepts?

I believe they would benefit all and should be the basis of any legal system.
But I believe that the moment you get emotional about any of them, you lose touch with them.

I believe they would benefit all and should be the basis of any legal system.
But I believe that the moment you get emotional about any of them, you lose touch with them.

cool. :cool:

Reminds me of a few "I'm not racist but..." kind of people on TV who were moaning about immigrants not integrating in British society, all terrorists, some of them have off coloured skin, etc, etc, from an Anglo-Cypriot community composed of a colony of similar minded Brits.

Pricks. Yeah, I only complain about west indians and muslims when I'm in the British Isles. It's good to be consistent.

Nationalism rocks!

You too would agree, if I were to take my jackboot off your throat long enough for you to speak.

Nationalism rocks!

You too would agree, if I were to take my jackboot off your throat long enough for you to speak.

Speaking isn't necessary... they can nod well enough with your jackboot on their throat if they really, REALLY mean it.

fair enough. :cool:

but what about the concept of Freedom, Self-determination, Rights, Responsibilities, laws, justice and other concepts?

*fluffles all of the above*

Reminds me of a few "I'm not racist but..." kind of people on TV who were moaning about immigrants not integrating in British society, all terrorists, some of them have off coloured skin, etc, etc, from an Anglo-Cypriot community composed of a colony of similar minded Brits.

Wish I was surprised. Far too many British people go in for that kind of nonsense, even while wanting to take some really tawdry aspects of British culture with them while they are abroad. I can cope with Irish theme pubs in the US - there's some sense in that - but when I was pretty stunned when I saw one in Warsaw.

I cannot say I love Sweden because it's just a piece of land but I do respect the country because I strongly believe that it has one of the most fair political, economical and social systems in the world. We have a good health care system, a decent social security system and the economy is going great for the moment. I can only hope that the new right wing goverment won't screw things up as much as they did the last time they were in power.

Nationalism is a very emotional feeling, it can be both left and right wing, pragmatic and revolutionary, conservative and liberating. You can't say nationalism is bad as it can be used to spread freedom such as the right to self determination. A nation is designated a group of people united by race, religion, language and ancestry. I like to take the liberal approach that people have the right to be proud of their nation and have the right to independent sovereignty.

The darker side of nationalism can involve people willing to die for their country.

Nationalism is a very emotional feeling, it can be both left and right wing, pragmatic and revolutionary, conservative and liberating. You can't say nationalism is bad as it can be used to spread freedom such as the right to self determination. A nation is designated a group of people united by race, religion, language and ancestry. I like to take the liberal approach that people have the right to be proud of their nation and have the right to independent sovereignty.

The darker side of nationalism can involve people willing to die for their country.

It should be noted that the word itself has been somewhat tainted by a string of unsavoury groups begining with the National Socialist Party. At heart, nationalism is the belief in the concept of the nation-state: that is, that the very existance of a language, culture, and/or ethnicity is a good enough reason for them to have a country. Originally, a nationalist did not have to value their country above any other, but they were almost always patriotic because they believed that people of their culture should have a single country which was theirs: Germans wanted to unite the small states, Poles wanted to emerge from under the rule of larger imperial powers, Italians a bit of both, and so on.

By that reasoning, I am a nationalist, but I support unions of nationstates (UK, union of the English, Scottish, and Welsh nationstates) and I don't think anyone need live in their own nationstate if they don't want to.

Since the OP seems not to know this more correct meaning, I put "Love my country, but not afraid to criticise faults". I'm British/Scottish and a Unionist.

The darker side of nationalism can involve people willing to die for their country. And this is always a bad thing?

WWI this was a bad thing. WWII it was not. French Resistance anyone?

WWII it was not. French Resistance anyone?
Waffen-SS anyone?

If a whole lot of Germans hadn't been ready to die for their country, there would have been no need for a whole lot of Frenchmen to die for theirs.

Theoretically, I like English nationalism. However, my disaffection with England, Britain and Europe leads me not to give fuck.