NationStates Jolt Archive

Does this have anything to do with slavery reparations?

Cos if they're going, I am owed reparations from the English, Italians and Norwegians.

On a practical level, that shows how ridiculous it can get.

So, I was wondering, what are your opinions on the matters of ancestral guilt, ancestral debt and justice over time?

Within a purely theoretical framework, how does it work and how would something along these lines be appropriately administered?

How do you determine who is the debtor, who is guilty, and to whom the debt is owed?

Well first, I think you need to completely exclude from this thread the situations where certain wrongs have been perpetuated into the present, and where certain groups have been given an advantage, upon birth, from not being part of the wronged class.

So if this is going to turn into another 'I don't hold slaves, so blah blah blah' threads...be upfront about it.

No, I was actually thinking more about several European situations, rather than North American. Although if you'd like to bring slavery into it, feel free, it would be useful for developing the argument.

No, I don't actually think it would be. That's my entire point.

Well first, I think you need to completely exclude from this thread the situations where certain wrongs have been perpetuated into the present, and where certain groups have been given an advantage, upon birth, from not being part of the wronged class.

So if this is going to turn into another 'I don't hold slaves, so blah blah blah' threads...be upfront about it.

No, I was actually thinking more about several European situations, rather than North American. Although if you'd like to bring slavery into it, feel free, it would be useful for developing the argument.

Well first, I think you need to completely exclude from this thread the situations where certain wrongs have been perpetuated into the present, and where certain groups have been given an advantage, upon birth, from not being part of the wronged class.

.

Would you be speaking of how certain native American groups have special privileges and rights that non-natives get? I think we should exclude those situations too. Wouldn't want the non-natives to catch on.

Ack. Timewarp.

But I was specifically thinking of situations pertaining to Jews in Northeastern Europe, Gypsies and various other religious minorities across the continent, as being far better for understanding this issue.

Let the dead bury the dead.

Would you be speaking of how certain native American groups have special privileges and rights that non-natives get? I think we should exclude those situations too. Wouldn't want the non-natives to catch on.
Yes, talk about special rights and privileges while ignoring the level of poverty, lack of potable water, poor health care services, soaring rates of addiction, diabetes, and a suicide rate 5 times the national average.

Boy, those special rights and privileges sure are special.

No, the point was, people bitch about 'ancestral guilt' so often, ignoring the fact that in many of these cases, they are still directly benefiting from the exploitation that occured, and is being perpetuated by colonial and/or racist systems.

Ack. Timewarp.

But I was specifically thinking of situations pertaining to Jews in Northeastern Europe, Gypsies and various other religious minorities across the continent, as being far better for understanding this issue.

Interesting...maybe throw out some more details so this doesn't end up focusing on blacks in the US or Natives in North America.

i think it depends on how old the offense is and how it impacts current populations.

if the UK feels guilty over its treatment of the native populations of the new world that they pushed out of their homelands back when the british held colonies there, a simple "oops we shouldnt have done that" (more nicely worded) would probably suffice.

if the UK feels guilty over its treatment of the peoples of the middle east, it probably should do a bit more than apologize. a direct role in peace negotiations and pressuring various governments to improve their human rights record might be a start.

im never in favor of handing cash to anyone who didnt directly suffer from the immediate grievance. no cash for you because your great great great grandparents were in some town that the british destroyed in the conquest of india. it has to be some poor widow whose house was accidentally bombed in iraq to use a most current grievance.

Yes, talk about special rights and privileges while ignoring the level of poverty, lack of potable water, poor health care services, soaring rates of addiction, diabetes, and a suicide rate 5 times the national average.

Boy, those special rights and privileges sure are special.

No, the point was, people bitch about 'ancestral guilt' so often, ignoring the fact that in many of these cases, they are still directly benefiting from the exploitation that occured, and is being perpetuated by colonial and/or racist systems.

The level of poverty is due to many of the natives still living in areas of no jobs. Most people move to find work if needed. They do not stay in the same area. The lack of potable water? Your joking right? Poor healthcare? Natives receive free healthcare in the US courtesy of the US taxpayers. Even non-natives are not afforded free healthcare most of the time. Diabetes has more to do with genetics then anything. If your talking type one specifically. Type two is linked mostly with diet. Suicide rate is probably due to the condition they keep themselves in. At some point in time one has to take responsibility for ones own condition and try to improve it.

You are correct on the point you were trying to make. People do bitch about ancestral guilt to much. I personally get tired of hearing about things that happened generations ago. The only thing I can change is what I do. So don't want to hear that I need to make good what someone else did generations ago. As far as still directly benefiting how exactly do you mean that. I have different responses for specifics that I can't just lay down a blanket statement on that particular item.

Dear me, dear me. In what way can any man be held responsible for the actions of his forebears. Let the past be the past and be gone with it. If people start paying reparations for actions done to dead people to dead people then where does it stop?

i think it depends on how old the offense is and how it impacts current populations.

if the UK feels guilty over its treatment of the native populations of the new world that they pushed out of their homelands back when the british held colonies there, a simple "oops we shouldnt have done that" (more nicely worded) would probably suffice.

if the UK feels guilty over its treatment of the peoples of the middle east, it probably should do a bit more than apologize. a direct role in peace negotiations and pressuring various governments to improve their human rights record might be a start.

im never in favor of handing cash to anyone who didnt directly suffer from the immediate grievance. no cash for you because your great great great grandparents were in some town that the british destroyed in the conquest of india. it has to be some poor widow whose house was accidentally bombed in iraq to use a most current grievance.

This is exactly how it should be. It is surprising how in the US and N America at large this attitude just hasn't sunk in. A lot of people dwell on the past here in the US to a point it negatively effects them in the present.

The level of poverty is due to many of the natives still living in areas of no jobs. Most people move to find work if needed. They do not stay in the same area. The lack of potable water? Your joking right? Poor healthcare? Natives receive free healthcare in the US courtesy of the US taxpayers. Even non-natives are not afforded free healthcare most of the time. Diabetes has more to do with genetics then anything. If your talking type one specifically. Type two is linked mostly with diet. Suicide rate is probably due to the condition they keep themselves in. At some point in time one has to take responsibility for ones own condition and try to improve it.

You are correct on the point you were trying to make. People do bitch about ancestral guilt to much. I personally get tired of hearing about things that happened generations ago. The only thing I can change is what I do. So don't want to hear that I need to make good what someone else did generations ago. As far as still directly benefiting how exactly do you mean that. I have different responses for specifics that I can't just lay down a blanket statement on that particular item.
Let's not further hijack this thread...but I have to mention...look into the potable water issue in Canada (http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/domino/other.nsf/html/05aa02_e.html)...I'm not joking.

But looking at the issue, not specific to natives or anyone else, of current injustices...

There is a difference between saying, "these things were done to us by agents of the state six generations ago" and saying, "these things were done to us by agents of the state six generations ago AND these other horrible things were done to us continuously since then, and indeed, continue to this day (though at least we're not being outright slaughtered anymore)". But most people are only aware of the former, and not the latter.

Dear me, dear me. In what way can any man be held responsible for the actions of his forebears. Let the past be the past and be gone with it. If people start paying reparations for actions done to dead people to dead people then where does it stop?

the world is not born afresh with every sunrise. what happened yesterday will still affect tomorrow.

a man is only responsible for his own actions. those he wrongs may sue him for recompense.

a country is responsible for its actions as long as it exists. the right to be awarded something in reparation for past actions should depend on how those past actions have affected those suing over them today.

This is exactly how it should be. It is surprising how in the US and N America at large this attitude just hasn't sunk in. A lot of people dwell on the past here in the US to a point it negatively effects them in the present.

How far is the past?

When there are still people living who have suffered abuses, don't you think there should be compensation? I don't know about the US, but in Canada, restitution is about RECENT abuses (that of course should be phrased within the context of historical abuses to understand them). To characterise it as bitching about things long past is simply incorrect.

How far is the past?

When there are still people living who have suffered abuses, don't you think there should be compensation? I don't know about the US, but in Canada, restitution is about RECENT abuses (that of course should be phrased within the context of historical abuses to understand them). To characterise it as bitching about things long past is simply incorrect.

i dont know where reparations come into discussions of north american native populations but its clearly right to insist on the enforcment of treaty rights.

the united states owes billions of dollars to various indian nations not as reparations but as payments for mineral rights, mining claims, and various other land uses that were never paid for. various indian nations have pressed and won claims to lands that were illegally appropriated by settlers and land developers over the years.

other non treaty rights violations should be handled on a case by case basis just like any other citizen can request.

Dear me, dear me. In what way can any man be held responsible for the actions of his forebears. Let the past be the past and be gone with it. If people start paying reparations for actions done to dead people to dead people then where does it stop?
Like this isnt a common and well-accepted way of doing things according to widely accepted tennets of justice.

If instead of a state we have a company and instead of current citizens not alive at the time of the misconduct we have current share-holders not involved in the company at the time of the misconduct, and even if the aggrieved party is dead, do we let the company off the hook? Nope, the company pays up for the damage it caused and current share-holders are negatively effected by the company's past, just as they benefit from it.

I see no reason why changing the word company to state magicially transforms the usual workings of justice so that current stake-holders should continue to derive benefits from an entity's past conduct but refuse to take on any negative effects from the same.

Bumping because the discussion interests me.

I wonder if there's a case that could be made for Indians (real Indians) getting reparations from the British and Portugese.

I wonder if there's a case that could be made for Indians (real Indians) getting reparations from the British and Portugese.

if the british had to pay for their sins around the world they would end up as impoverished as malawi. its a can of worms that no one really wants to open.

Every cultural group on Earth has committed something wrong against another group at some point in its history...the entire concept of ancestral guilt is little more than selective punishment based upon whatever criteria stand to benefit its supporters the most. Really, it makes no sense whatsoever to force an innocent person to pay for the crimes of someone else who is not only dead but who also lived in a time so totally different from our own that attempting to draw a moral or ethical comparison is an exercise in futility.

Face it, the morals and society of the 17th or 7th century simply don't equal those of the 21st. Things we see as abhorrent today were seen as normal or even acceptable at the time when they were practiced. People simply didn't think what they were doing was particularly wrong. I did not commit any of the crimes inflicted by the Germans, Russians, or Poles, and I should not be forced to pay for something I am not guilty of and my living relatives are not guilty of. There is no guilt in my family for anything of this sort.

Would you be speaking of how certain native American groups have special privileges and rights that non-natives get? I think we should exclude those situations too. Wouldn't want the non-natives to catch on.


*sigh*

As I've told you many times before, anytime we want to trade back the land for those treaty rights, I'm sure the Indians would be happy to do so.

Indengenous folks in the Americas may still have a bitch, considering they're still sitting on the sidelines being cheated out of all kinds of crap our governments have promised them and not come through with.

If we talk slavery, I might be in trouble. Some of my ancestors were slave owners. But some of my ancestors were also Native American, so maybe they'll cancel each other out.

But how far back do we go? Is Ireland going to sue Denmark for Viking predation? Thebes suing Macedonia?

The whole problem could be solved thus: implement the Timewarp in real life.
Instead of blaming our ancestors, they could blame us!

if the british had to pay for their sins around the world they would end up as impoverished as malawi. its a can of worms that no one really wants to open.

Oh, I know. I wasn't advocating, merely speculating as to whether or not an adequate case could be made.

Oh, I know. I wasn't advocating, merely speculating as to whether or not an adequate case could be made.

i dont suppse there is. are there reparations due for winning the conquest of another country? its winner take all, isnt it?

the things i think of as (perhaps) required reparations are egregious violations of common decency. the continuous violation and abrogation of treaties, the pernicious form of american slavery, the treatment of the irish by the british.

in my mind its not that these things dont require some reparation, its that its too late to pay back those who were hurt (for the most part). our best course of action is to try to fix any lingering problems that are caused by our country's bad behavior in the past.

Does this have anything to do with slavery reparations?

Cos if they're going, I am owed reparations from the English, Italians and Norwegians.

On a practical level, that shows how ridiculous it can get.

Sometimes people just need to let the past be the past. They'll be whining about this a hundred years from now.

I am responsible for what I say and what I do.

I am not responsible nor culpable of anything I could not affect or prevent. Whatever my ancestors did, is not my problem, nor my responsibility to either make restitution for or fix.

Someone screwed over your grandfather? Get over it.