NationStates Jolt Archive

Last Updated: Thursday, 15 February 2007, 21:45 GMT

Shock at women goading toddlers

Plymouth Magistrates' Court

Footage of four women goading toddlers to fight has "stunned" police and social services in Devon.

The seven-minute footage, filmed at a house by one woman, was shown in a case at Plymouth Magistrates' Court.

In the clip, a boy wearing a nappy was called a "wimp" for not hitting a girl back after she struck him in the face.

Four women admitted child cruelty charges and were released on bail on Wednesday. Det Sgt Andy Kings said the police had been "shocked" by the case.


I didn't see any harm in toughening them up
A defendant
"This was a multi-agency operation with the police and social services working together and every professional that has seen this has been shocked and stunned," he said.

"Locally this is something that is new to us, but we are aware that similar incidents have occurred elsewhere in the country and it is something people need to be aware of."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6366255.stm

I mean what the fuck?? And there are other areas of the country where this has happened?

*UGH*!

What the fook? :eek:

Meh, kid's have to learn to stand up for themselves. What better way than to give in to some loud ****'s nagging and punch a little girl. Or something.

I didn't see any harm in toughening them up

Say that after he's beaten or killed someone and sits in a jail cell...slowly losing his sanity.

Meh, kid's have to learn to stand up for themselves. What better way than to give in to some loud ****'s nagging and punch a little girl. Or something.

Not goading though....thats out of bounds...

Say that after he's beaten or killed someone and sits in a jail cell...slowly losing his sanity.

Oh come on now. It's not that bad. He might get away with it.

I'm all for kids standing up for themselves, but this is nasty.

At least she didn't take bets on the outcome....;)

dog fighting is big around here since cock fighting got outlawed, so there was this couple who got all their pit bulls taken away (because dog fighting is also illegal) and then a few weeks later they got their kids taken away, apparently they were taking bets on letting them street fight.

I don't know if I can find a link since it's been about 6 months back.

Personally, I would review the centers hiring policies.

I mean what the fuck?? And there are other areas of the country where this has happened?

*UGH*!

Holy Christ...

Toddler fighting is a wonderful sport - but when you wager, watch out for midget ringers.

...wow.

When these muppets come to be sentenced, their solicitors will no doubt stand up in court and say that they mustn't be sent to jail because that would leave their kids without a mother. Seriously, I'd put money on them saying that.

I would say I was shocked but seeing how crap humanity is somehow I'm not that supprised. (Though it is still appauling).

I've seen some 'little people' fight on the WWE - one even had a stick:eek:

Are we judging this by age or height??

Hahaha, I wonder who thought of that? It's hilarious!

Yeah, I'm a bad, bad person. But it is! :D

Faith in humanity......falling below zero.....

oh, you silly British :rolleyes:

but seriously thats terrrible no matter who does it.

Oh come on, this is nothing. When I saw the OP, I thought the women were propositioning them or something.

Oh come on, this is nothing. When I saw the OP, I thought the women were propositioning them or something.

Yes, but you're insane. ;)

It's cockfighting for the new century!

Wait, is this really supposed to be surprising or unusual?

Where I grew up, adults were ALWAYS encouraging little boys to hit. It was "manly," and you wanted your boy to be a little man, didn't you? If he didn't hit things he'd turn into a sissy!!!

Wait, is this really supposed to be surprising or unusual?

Where I grew up, adults were ALWAYS encouraging little boys to hit. It was "manly," and you wanted your boy to be a little man, didn't you? If he didn't hit things he'd turn into a sissy!!!


"Boys don't cry."

Wait, is this really supposed to be surprising or unusual?

Where I grew up, adults were ALWAYS encouraging little boys to hit. It was "manly," and you wanted your boy to be a little man, didn't you? If he didn't hit things he'd turn into a sissy!!!

I am not sure wether you are taking things incorrectly/out of context or wether you just grew up in an abusive background.

When I was growing up I was encouraged to stand up for myself against bullies and the like but I don't know anyone who was raised by their parents to be violent for no reason, to attack people or to beat the shit out of another toddler in a ring.

"Boys don't cry."

but they do grow up into emotionallly challenged adults who rule countries like Iran :p

but they do grow up into emotionallly challenged adults who rule countries like Iran :p

or taking guns to high school

I am not sure wether you are taking things incorrectly/out of context or wether you just grew up in an abusive background.

That would be neither.

My own parents believed in teaching kids to behave themselves, and this included the fundamental lesson about keeping your hands to yourself. Hitting other people was unacceptable, as far as my parents were concerned, and hitting was looked upon as immature and unworthy behavior.

However, most other adults didn't seem to see it that way. Little boys were encouraged to be rough and violent. Little boys who were picked on were told to "stand up for themselves" and "hit him back." Little boys who fought on the playground were considered normal and healthy, and were simply separated and had a finger or two wagged at them while the adults were simultaneously smiling and saying, "Boys will be boys!"

This is not remotely unusual for the country and time I grew up in. Indeed, it is still very common today.

When I was growing up I was encouraged to stand up for myself against bullies and the like but I don't know anyone who was raised by their parents to be violent for no reason, to attack people or to beat the shit out of another toddler in a ring.
It's sad that you assume my parents were the only adults I came into contact with as a child.

I was always told not to fight, or to atleast win.

However, most other adults didn't seem to see it that way. Little boys were encouraged to be rough and violent. Little boys who were picked on were told to "stand up for themselves" and "hit him back." Little boys who fought on the playground were considered normal and healthy, and were simply separated and had a finger or two wagged at them while the adults were simultaneously smiling and saying, "Boys will be boys!"
This is a far cry from getting a couple of toddlers in a ring and encouraging them to beat each other up.

The 'stand up for yourself' is also about defense, this toddler thing is about aggression. Which is a HUGE difference. The 'standing up' also serves a purpose in preventing the need to stand up again, while organised fights have no such effect.


It's sad that you assume my parents were the only adults I came into contact with as a child.
Seeing as you decided to put 'Always' in caps and made no indication that you were talking about other peoples parents it was a fair assumption that you were talking about the upbringing in your own family rather than commenting on your view as an outsider seeing what happens in facets of other peoples upbringing.

This is a far cry from getting a couple of toddlers in a ring and encouraging them to beat each other up.

Not really. When fights broke out on the playground, it was normal for the adult monitors to allow the fight to continue until one of the boys was on the ground. Then the fight was considered "settled," and the boys were separated.

It was normal for the observing adults to offer suggestions to the fighters. "Get your hands up or he's gonna whup you!" And so forth.

Boys who reported being harassed or teased were often encouraged to "stick it to 'em" or "take it or break it" (meaning either shut up and take the abuse, or beat up the person teasing you).


The 'stand up for yourself' is also about defense, this toddler thing is about aggression. Which is a HUGE difference. The 'standing up' also serves a purpose in preventing the need to stand up again, while organised fights have no such effect.

You don't have to convince me that hitting is a lousy way to solve problems. My point is that it is nothing new for adults to encourage violence in young children.


Seeing as you decided to put 'Always' in caps and made no indication that you were talking about other peoples parents it was a fair assumption that you were talking about the upbringing in your own family rather than commenting on your view as an outsider seeing what happens in facets of other peoples upbringing.
If I had meant my parents, wouldn't I have said "parents" instead of "adults"? Yes, I would have. It's okay that you made a mistake and leaped to a totally unfounded assumption, we all make mistakes sometimes, just be more careful in the future.

Wait, is this really supposed to be surprising or unusual?

Where I grew up, adults were ALWAYS encouraging little boys to hit. It was "manly," and you wanted your boy to be a little man, didn't you? If he didn't hit things he'd turn into a sissy!!!


Surprising and unusual (and downright cruel) in the fact that the boy was only 2 years old and the girl 3. Get to be around 5 or 6 then its not that unusual.

And I wonder if the kids' mother was involved in this. That would be even more unusual as we would naturally want to protect our children..not see them hurt.

Seeing as you decided to put 'Always' in caps and made no indication that you were talking about other peoples parents it was a fair assumption that you were talking about the upbringing in your own family rather than commenting on your view as an outsider seeing what happens in facets of other peoples upbringing.

She was also being sarcastic. She's Bottle. Don't worry, you'll get used to it ;)

Surprising and unusual (and downright cruel) in the fact that the boy was only 2 years old and the girl 3. Get to be around 5 or 6 then its not that unusual.

I dunno, I haven't seen much of an age cutoff myself. But, then again, I intentionally avoid spending time with most small children, so I don't really know what the current trends are. :D


And I wonder if the kids' mother was involved in this. That would be even more unusual as we would naturally want to protect our children..not see them hurt.
That really depends, I think. Like I said, when I was growing up it was very normal for adults (and many parents) to encourage their boys to fight, and to tell their sons to suck it up when they were hurt. The idea was that you needed to make your kid tough and let him be hurt so that he would grow up strong.

Now, please don't misunderstand me...I am NOT saying I agree with this kind of parenting. I don't think it's productive to encourage your kid to hit or be hit in most situations. I certainly don't think a 2 year old is going to benefit from being made to fight. :P

She was also being sarcastic. She's Bottle. Don't worry, you'll get used to it ;)
It occurs to me: part of the confusion was probably that I am assumed to be male. If you assume I'm male, then my original post on this topic has a bit of a different spin. If, on the other hand, you assume I'm female, then it becomes more obvious that adults encouraging boys to fight would not apply to me. :D

That really depends, I think. Like I said, when I was growing up it was very normal for adults (and many parents) to encourage their boys to fight, and to tell their sons to suck it up when they were hurt. The idea was that you needed to make your kid tough and let him be hurt so that he would grow up strong.

sadly it's still the norm around here, when I was teaching preschool aged kids last year the boys would hit at the first sign of frustration, I had just gotten one of them to "use his words" when his dad came in and said "we don't talk about stuff in our family, we are men of action" :rolleyes: I so wanted to smack the crap out of him, but it would have been a bad example for the children.

I so wanted to smack the crap out of him, but it would have been a bad example for the children.

Aaaaah!!! Catch 22!!!

Well, apparentally, even if there weren't mothers involved in this particular incident, one of the workers said...

The court heard that when interviewed by police, one of the women said: "I didn't see any harm in toughening them up. I done the same with my own children."

Aaaaah!!! Catch 22!!!

no, not a catch 22. I hate when people misuse that. :mad:

no, not a catch 22. I hate when people misuse that. :mad:

I know. That's why I said it. :D

*safe in the knolwdge that Smunkeeville won't resort to violence*

Not really. When fights broke out on the playground, it was normal for the adult monitors to allow the fight to continue until one of the boys was on the ground. Then the fight was considered "settled," and the boys were separated.

It was normal for the observing adults to offer suggestions to the fighters. "Get your hands up or he's gonna whup you!" And so forth.
All of which is very different to adults creating a fight for their entertainment.


You don't have to convince me that hitting is a lousy way to solve problems. My point is that it is nothing new for adults to encourage violence in young children.
It is not a great way to solve problems. However in an imperfect world such as we live in it is sometimes the only way.


If I had meant my parents, wouldn't I have said "parents" instead of "adults"? Yes, I would have. It's okay that you made a mistake and leaped to a totally unfounded assumption, we all make mistakes sometimes, just be more careful in the future.
Well firstly I am not a mind reader and so I am not aware of the exact reasons you might choose a word you do, however even in this description you could still have chosen "Adults" to refer to your parents actions including them in the actions of other adults with similar views.

It occurs to me: part of the confusion was probably that I am assumed to be male.
I have seen you post and realised that you are female, however I assumed that you were talking about your parents actions to male siblings where you would see everything that goes on rather than what you apparently glimpsed in a playground 10/20/more? years ago apparently without seeing all the rest of the stuff that goes on with these issues that does not happen between kids and their parents in public.

I know. That's why I said it. :D

*safe in the knolwdge that Smunkeeville won't resort to violence*

just because I want to hit people, doesn't mean I will. It's called self control. ;)

see I can use my words

when you misuse literary references to books I like, it makes me feel angry.

see? I am good at "when you, I feel" statements.

see? I am good at "when you, I feel" statements.

That was my favourite segment of Sesame Street.

dog fighting is big around here since cock fighting got outlawed, so there was this couple who got all their pit bulls taken away (because dog fighting is also illegal) and then a few weeks later they got their kids taken away, apparently they were taking bets on letting them street fight.

I don't know if I can find a link since it's been about 6 months back.

People who fight their pitbulls are scum. I recently got a pitbull puppy and she's friendly and playful. Turning her into a fighter and letting her get torn up for some cash would be unthinkable.

People who fight their pitbulls are scum. I recently got a pitbull puppy and she's friendly and playful. Turning her into a fighter and letting her get torn up for some cash would be unthinkable.

You wouldn't believe how cruel you have to be to one of them to make them vicious enough to fight to the death. I used to have neighbors who fought dogs, I called the police on them repeatedly, they would have 12 pitbulls in small kennels all day long, except for when they let them walk the yard, chained to a cinder block to build up the muscles in the front. :(

They wouldn't even feed them before a fight, they told me (before the first time I called the cops) that they want them to fight to the death, and if they are hungry it makes them more determined.

I am very afraid of pitbulls because most of the ones around here are fighting dogs, and if they get out of the yard, it's because they are hungry, very hungry and have either broken their chain and gotten away, or jumped the fence with it on.

I dunno, I haven't seen much of an age cutoff myself. But, then again, I intentionally avoid spending time with most small children, so I don't really know what the current trends are. :D

I love small children. It's the older ones I tend to avoid.:D


Wasn't really a cutoff . In a nutshell-When your kids are very young you just want to baby them but as they get older you want to toughen them up a little for when you will not always be around. Most kids start school around 5 and that is when you want them to start learning to defend themselves. You don't want them perceived as "babyish" (as this makes for a great target for bullies) so you tend to tell your kids to "suck it up" on occasion. That is why I mentioned the age.

All of which is very different to adults creating a fight for their entertainment.

Not really.


Well firstly I am not a mind reader and so I am not aware of the exact reasons you might choose a word you do, however even in this description you could still have chosen "Adults" to refer to your parents actions including them in the actions of other adults with similar views.

Then you agree that you were wrong to assume "adults" referred exclusively to my parents. Fine. We're cool. :D


I have seen you post and realised that you are female, however I assumed that you were talking about your parents actions to male siblings where you would see everything that goes on rather than what you apparently glimpsed in a playground 10/20/more? years ago apparently without seeing all the rest of the stuff that goes on with these issues that does not happen between kids and their parents in public.
Meh. We all make incorrect assumptions some time. No biggie.

How do you goad a toddler into fighting? Shit, I can't goad a toddler into doing anything but whining.

Ew. I mean ... ew.

Telling a child it's ok to fight back, that it's the best way to handle a bully, is one thing. Goading them to fight, and calling them names when they won't ... ew. Some people shouldn't be parents.