NationStates Jolt Archive

This election is now complete.

Voted off in round one: Jean-Marie Le Pen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marie_Le_Pen) (Front National, far right)
Voted off in round two: Philippe de Villiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_de_Villiers) (Mouvement pour la France, far right)
Voted off in round three: Nicolas Sarkozy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy) (Union pour un Mouvement Populaire, right-wing)
Voted off in round four: Nicolas Dupont-Aignan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Dupont-Aignan) (split away from the Union pour un Mouvement Populaire, right-wing)
Voted off in round five: François Bayrou (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Bayrou) (Union pour la Démocratie Française, right of centre)
Voted off in round six: Ségolène Royal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9gol%C3%A8ne_Royal) (Parti Socialiste, left of centre)
Voted off in round seven: Dominique Voynet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominique_Voynet) (Les Verts, left-wing green)
Voted off in round eight: Arlette Laguiller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlette_Laguiller) (Lutte Ouvrière, far left)
Voted off in round nine: Marie-George Buffet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie-George_Buffet) (Parti Communiste Français, left-wing)
Voted off in round ten: José Bové (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Bov%C3%A9) (independent, far left)

Winner, chosen by all of you here in NSG: Olivier Besancenot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivier_Besancenot) (Ligue Communiste Révolutionnaire, far left)

= = = = = =

Inspired by another thread.

The principle is simple. What if, instead of electing a candidate, you had several rounds and voted off one candidate per round? (In real life, I would never favour this, of course, but this is NSG, the place for silly experiments).

Below are 11 possible or confirmed candidates for this year's election, with links to their Wikipedia articles for information. (It may not be a full list. In 2002, there were 16 candidates.) Each round will last 24 hours. In each round, you can vote off one of the remaining candidates. We'll see who's left at the end...

Since there are multiple rounds, I can't include a poll. Simply indicate your vote in a post. To make this into, potentially, a meaningful political discussion, you're encouraged to explain why you're voting off a particular candidate.

These are the remaining candidates, in alphabetical order:

none

I'll vote off Le Pen. I'm not a big fan of far right wingers and this guy is as a far right wing as they come.

I'd have to flip a coin between Bove and Le Pen.

I'm voting off Sarkozy... I don't see the far-rightists lasting very long here.

First things first: I'm voting off Le Pen.

I'd have to flip a coin between Bove and Le Pen.

Care to flip your coin and cast a vote?

Dominique Voynet

I am not keen on the Greens...especially left wing greens (sadly a seemingly inclusive term).

Care to flip your coin and cast a vote?

Heads=Bove
Tails=Le Pen


Thus, I flip.

Heads, Bove.

I'd vote off all of them, they seem like awful candidates. I wonder why France had a revolution, I don't see how this can be better than having a king.

I vote for Chirac.

he can still decide to run.

I vote for Chirac.

he can still decide to run.

He won't. Not a chance.

Would you like to vote off one of the 11 candidates listed?

I like this procedure... it means I don't have to actually vote for a Leninist. I just have to vote off their competitors. :)

I'd probably vote for Sarkozy, cause he's the only candidate that's stood out to me. He's not afraid to speak his mind.

Since I can expect Le Pen to be disposed of by my dear colleagues here, I'll get rid of De Villiers.

No "far-right" dickheads allowed.

Though to be honest, I can't stand Royal. She annoys the living shit out of me.

I'd vote off Le Pen.

I'd vote off all of them, they seem like awful candidates. I wonder why France had a revolution, I don't see how this can be better than having a king.
Some people actually like the people they vote for, or at least rather choose the lesser of two evils, rather than have one thrust upon them.

I'd probably vote for Sarkozy, cause he's the only candidate that's stood out to me. He's not afraid to speak his mind.

Is that the reason you'd vote him off the list? I'm not sure I understand...I think I'd rather have a pol who did speak his mind...

So far six votes, for (well, against) five different candidates. Interesting.

I'd probably vote for Sarkozy, cause he's the only candidate that's stood out to me. He's not afraid to speak his mind.

Are you voting him off?

(By the way, he's not "speaking his mind". He's just a populist saying what he thinks people want to hear.)

So far six votes, for (well, against) five different candidates. Interesting.



Are you voting him off?

(By the way, he's not "speaking his mind". He's just a populist saying what he thinks people want to hear.)
Am I mistaken in thinking that Sarkozy made himself unpopular as Interior Minister during the Paris riots?

He (Chirac) won't. Not a chance. why, is he over the term limits?

why, is he over the term limits?
There aren't any in France. (Unlimited 5 year terms must be a politician's wet dream!) I assume everyone's tired of him though.

Am I mistaken in thinking that Sarkozy made himself unpopular as Interior Minister during the Paris riots?

Unpopular among some, yes. He was seen as having mishandled it, and even as having been one of the causes for it.

The problem is, Sarkozy is campaigning very actively. He's everywhere, being interviewed and making speeches all the time, and drumming his message through. More importantly, he has the backing of much of the media. There's a genuine right-wing bias developing in the French media which wasn't really there before.

Plus, the "big" candidates (Sarkozy & Royal) get a hell of a lot more time in the media than the "small" ones. The media hardly ever talk about Buffet or interview her, for example.

I'll vote off Le Pen. I'm not a big fan of far right wingers and this guy is as a far right wing as they come.Ditto.

Off with Le Pen!

Is that the reason you'd vote him off the list? I'm not sure I understand...I think I'd rather have a pol who did speak his mind...

Whoops... I like him, so i'm not voting him off. I'll have to look at the other candidates to see who I dont like.

Unpopular among some, yes. He was seen as having mishandled it, and even as having been one of the causes for it.

The problem is, Sarkozy is campaigning very actively. He's everywhere, being interviewed and making speeches all the time, and drumming his message through. More importantly, he has the backing of much of the media. There's a genuine right-wing bias developing in the French media which wasn't really there before.
And I'm sure you can see the same thing happening in the UK too. I'm sure Royal's relative inactivity (I believe she only just released her manifesto) would also have helped too, or so the Guardian would have me believe.

Plus, the "big" candidates (Sarkozy & Royal) get a hell of a lot more time in the media than the "small" ones. The media hardly ever talk about Buffet or interview her, for example.[/QUOTE]
I assume they think no one else will progress through to the second round, which is a bit silly, considering what happened last time around. Or, more likely, they simply don't like minor party candidates.

why, is he over the term limits?

He's not popular enough. (As NB says, there are no term limits.) He knows he wouldn't be re-elected, so he's not going to go out on a humiliating defeat. He's been trying to build up his place in the history books recently (re-iterating France's position on Iraq, taking a pro-environmental position and measures, supporting the idea of making housing a legal right...). Many of these ideas put him towards the left of his right-wing party, and show him as a moderate - directly opposed to Sarkozy, who is very much to the right of the same party.

Plus, Chirac and Sarkozy have a strong dislike for each other (especially since Sarkozy supported Chirac's rival Balladur in 1995). Chirac is more of a classic Gaullist; Sarkozy is a radical who wants to redefine right-wing politics in France. Chirac, despite being right-wing, has spoken up in favour of "le modèle social français"; Sarkozy wants to get rid of it and adopt / accelerate "Anglo-Saxon" neoliberalism.

If Chirac tries to stand against Sarkozy, he knows he (Chirac) will go out on a humiliating defeat to his worst rival, and there's no way he's going to do that. He's not going to give Sarkozy that pleasure.

Whoops... I like him, so i'm not voting him off. I'll have to look at the other candidates to see who I dont like.

Vote lefty green :p

I assume they think no one else will progress through to the second round, which is a bit silly, considering what happened last time around. Or, more likely, they simply don't like minor party candidates.

Bayrou ("centrist", mildly right-wing) stands a (very) slight chance of making it to the second round (as does, unfortunately, Le Pen). But the media aren't really interested in him. He's been saying (which, given his position, is not surprising) that the media are trying to maintain a two-party system and shun the rest out of view - and in my opinion he's right.

He's not popular enough. I see your list.. and most in there are not popular at all.

In fact.. The only ones that could get more votes than Chirac are.. Sarkozy and Royal.

By the way, if anyone's interested, a few brief France 24 reports on several candidates:

* "Bové could campaign from inside jail" (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/special-reports/France-elections/20070207-Jose-Bove-jail)
* "Centrist Bayrou climbs in polls" (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/archives/news/2007/February/france/20070208-bayroudossier)
* "Royal launches manifesto" (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/archives/news/2007/February/france/20070211-Royal-manifesto-launch)
* "The Royal gamble" (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/talk/20070212-Debate-Segonele-Royal.html)
* Profile: Ségolène Royal (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/special-reports/France-elections/segolene.html)
* Profile: Nicolas Sarkozy (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/special-reports/France-elections/sarkozy.html)
* Profile: Jean-Marie Le Pen (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/special-reports/France-elections/le-pen.html)

I see your list.. and most you hanpicked are not popular at all.
In fact.. The only ones that could get more votes than Chirac are.. Sarkozy and Royal.

I didn't "handpick" them: I included all those who have confirmed they're taking part, and those who are likely to, who are well known, etc...

Sarkozy and Royal represent the two "big" parties likely to make it to the second round.

A Presidential election in France is a 2-round election. The idea being not to exclude "small" parties (as is the consequence of single round elections in countries like the UK or the US). Once the list of candidates is finalised (mid March), the various candidates should theoretically be given equal time to express themselves in the media. Which in my view is a lot more healthy and democratic than a single round system with, de facto, only two parties.

So far six votes..yeah.. and Le Pen is kicking ass :D

I didn't "handpick" them: I included all those who have confirmed they're taking part, and those who are likely to, who are well known, etc...

Sarkozy and Royal represent the two "big" parties likely to make it to the second round.

A Presidential election in France is a 2-round election. The idea being not to exclude "small" parties (as is the consequence of single round elections in countries like the UK or the US). Once the list of candidates is finalised (mid March), the various candidates should theoretically be given equal time to express themselves in the media. Which in my view is a lot more healthy and democratic than a single round system with, de facto, only two parties.fine.. I vote for Le Pen :D

just to piss you off.. :cool:

the French law is clear.. Chirac is allowed to run if he want to.
and like I said.. he can pull more votes than most in your "likely to get elected" list.

Go Le Pen Go :D

Le Pen off I want José Bové to win because of his 'tache

yeah.. and Le Pen is kicking ass :D

Yup. 10 votes so far; 6 against Le Pen. Seems as if he'll be the first booted out of the race. ;)

Yup. 10 votes so far; 6 against Le Pen. Seems as if he'll be the first booted out of the race. ;)what the hell?

Its not a normal poll?
I want to vote for LePen.

what is this "off" trick?
never mind.. Ill start an straigh vote.. and I will include Chirac. ;)

I'll add another vote for Le Pen; I can't stand that little creep.

fine.. I vote for Le Pen :D

just to piss you off.. :cool:


Why would that "piss me off"? I've voted him off too.


the French law is clear.. Chirac is allowed to run if he want to.


But he won't, for reasons I've explained.


and like I said.. he can pull more votes than most in your "likely to get elected" list.

It's not a "likely to get elected" list, at all, as I've already explained. And the fact that Chirac would get more votes than, say, Bové or Buffet is utterly beside the point. He won't run in an election which is bound to see him suffer a humiliating defeat against his most despised political opponent.

what the hell?

Its not a normal poll?
I want to vote for LePen.

what is this "off" trick?
never mind.. Ill start an straigh vote.. and I will include Chirac. ;)

You vote without reading the OP? You answer a question without reading it? And you call it a "trick"?

Royal has my vote. And as a quasi-French speaking American citizen, I think my vote should count.

You vote without reading the OP? You answer a question without reading it? And you call it a "trick"?

actually I think this thread is great Ariddia....it really shows that reading at least the OP is pretty damn important...nice one!

Vive la Ariddia! ;)

I'll add another vote for Le Pen; I can't stand that little creep.

Me, neither.

Bove.

Royal has my vote. And as a quasi-French speaking American citizen, I think my vote should count.

Are you voting her off?

actually I think this thread is great Ariddia....it really shows that reading at least the OP is pretty damn important...nice one!

Vive la Ariddia! ;)

Thanks. ;)

Me, neither.

Are you voting him off?

One vote towards Le Pen. I just don't like the guy.

Are you voting him off?

Yes.

Are you voting her off?

No, I'm voting FOR her. I myself am a moderate socialist, so she looks like the best person for me.

No, I'm voting FOR her. I myself am a moderate socialist, so she looks like the best person for me.

:headbang:

read the OP

Vote off Arlette Laguiller! Ugh, I can't stand that right-wing nutjob.

Vote off Arlette Laguiller! Ugh, I can't stand that right-wing nutjob.

:confused:

Laguiller is a candidate of the extreme left.

:confused:

Laguiller is a candidate of the extreme left.

Ah crap. I highlighted and copied the wrong name by mistake. See, I saw the far right-winger and accidentely copied the name above him. I figured I'd not like the far-right winger since I know absolutely jack about French politics. My mistake. Le Pen is whom should be voted off.

Some people actually like the people they vote for, or at least rather choose the lesser of two evils, rather than have one thrust upon them.

I'd rather have the evil who's out for preserving and improving the country for his own benefit thrust upon me than choose the evil who's out to grab as much as he can in the small time he's allotted.

I'd vote off Le Pen. He's a xenophobic nutjob.

I saw a Verts rally here in town the other day. I would have stayed to listen, but I had to catch the bus home for dinner.

de Villiers, since I think Le Pen will get voted off without my help.

I'd vote off Josè Bovè.
He's a farmer who complains for people eating at McDonald's for 6 euro instead of buying his own foie-gras for 50 euro/hg. That is, he wants the state to finance his own private enterprise. I can't stand enterpreneurs always calling Mommy State for help.

I'd rather have the evil who's out for preserving and improving the country for his own benefit thrust upon me than choose the evil who's out to grab as much as he can in the small time he's allotted.
Right. Like Louis XVI preserved and improved France.

I vote off Le Pen, of course.

But may I point to you that Marie-George Buffet is not the candidate of the PCF, but the candidate of the "popular and antiliberal" left, supported by the PCF, but not only by the PCF ;)

I vote off Le Pen, of course.

But may I point to you that Marie-George Buffet is not the candidate of the PCF, but the candidate of the "popular and antiliberal" left, supported by the PCF, but not only by the PCF ;)

Who else supports her? The LCR and LO each have their own candidate (and now Bové's thrown himself into the mix). I haven't heard of the Parti des Travailleurs fielding a candidate; are they backing Buffet?

Who else supports her? The LCR and LO each have their own candidate (and now Bové's thrown himself into the mix). I haven't heard of the Parti des Travailleurs fielding a candidate; are they backing Buffet?

She is supported by some people "outside" of parties, and by some small parties. She was chosen by 60% of the "collectifs d'initiative populaire", and even if the whole thing collapsed on the national level, on the local level many of those "collectifs" still support her, with people from several parties and from unions or NGO in them.

Bove

I'd vote off Josè Bovè.
He's a farmer who complains for people eating at McDonald's for 6 euro instead of buying his own foie-gras for 50 euro/hg. That is, he wants the state to finance his own private enterprise. I can't stand enterpreneurs always calling Mommy State for help.

Well, not really. I don't support José Bové because he's just adding division on the left, and because of his mind switching attitude, but that's not what he is saying.

His opposition to McDonald's is not about the price of the food, it's about the fact that the food is really unhealthy, and for the symbol of US imperialism that McDonald is.

And he doesn't want the state to finance his own entreprise, he's not the one supporting the heavy and blind funding of agriculture by the EU as it is now. What he wants is that peasants get paid decently for their work, mostly by reducing the profits taken between the producer and the consumer (on the price of food in supermarket, it's usually around 10% that goes to the peasants, the rest goes to the supermarket and the transport corporation).

He also wants the governement to support sustainable agriculture, by encouraging peasants to avoid using too much chemicals, to avoid intensive mono-culture, ... that can be done through state-money, but that's not the only way.

Le Pen... because people who rely on others to vote off the Nazi have no right to complain when the jackboot is pressed against their skull.

No, I'm voting FOR her. I myself am a moderate socialist, so she looks like the best person for me.

Well, saddly, Ségolène Royale is not a socialist :( her party is no longer socialist... she is much closer to Blair or Schroeder than to "real" socialists like Salvador Allende or Evo Morales.

And she supported the neoliberal european "constitution"...

She is supported by some people "outside" of parties, and by some small parties. She was chosen by 60% of the "collectifs d'initiative populaire", and even if the whole thing collapsed on the national level, on the local level many of those "collectifs" still support her, with people from several parties and from unions or NGO in them.

It's a shame the genuine left couldn't unite.

Although maybe their division will paradoxically give them more votes overall. I just hope all the left-wing parties reach at least 5%. It will be a bad blow to the PCF if it falls below that mark again. :(

Well, not really. I don't support José Bové because he's just adding division on the left, and because of his mind switching attitude, but that's not what he is saying.

His opposition to McDonald's is not about the price of the food, it's about the fact that the food is really unhealthy, and for the symbol of US imperialism that McDonald is.

And he doesn't want the state to finance his own entreprise, he's not the one supporting the heavy and blind funding of agriculture by the EU as it is now. What he wants is that peasants get paid decently for their work, mostly by reducing the profits taken between the producer and the consumer (on the price of food in supermarket, it's usually around 10% that goes to the peasants, the rest goes to the supermarket and the transport corporation).

He also wants the governement to support sustainable agriculture, by encouraging peasants to avoid using too much chemicals, to avoid intensive mono-culture, ... that can be done through state-money, but that's not the only way.

Peasants?

Fuck, I thought the west left that word in the dust two centuries ago.

Peasants?

Fuck, I thought the west left that word in the dust two centuries ago.

Well, as you can see, I'm french, I may not use the correct english word sometimes ;) We still say "paysan" in french, and the litteral translation is "peasant"...

How do you call the people who work on the fields growing crops or cattles ?

It's a shame the genuine left couldn't unite.

Indeed... :(

Although maybe their division will paradoxically give them more votes overall.

I doubt they will, with a united candidate of the genuine left, we would have a dynamic that could have taken some voters from Ségolène... with a bunch of single candidates, many people will just for Ségolène against Sarkozy :/

I just hope all the left-wing parties reach at least 5%. It will be a bad blow to the PCF if it falls below that mark again. :(

Yeah... it'll be a heavy blow from an economical point of view (the state only pays the campaign of candidates who are above 5%), but even worse politically. Economically, the PCF will suffer but its members will take on themselves and pay... but politically, it'll be hard to defend our viewpoint with no one above 5%.

Right. Like Louis XVI preserved and improved France.

Nah, he didn't. But his democratic successors sure did worse than he did.

I vote off Le Pen.

Well, as you can see, I'm french, I may not use the correct english word sometimes ;) We still say "paysan" in french, and the litteral translation is "peasant"...

How do you call the people who work on the fields growing crops or cattles ?
Farmers. Or ranchers, for cattle. ;)

Nah, he didn't. But his democratic successors sure did worse than he did.
He didn't have any democratic successors. Let's see:
1. Convention government. Run on an 'emergency powers' basis to protect the revolution from foreign and internal threats, but did so by suppressing all internal dissent, and guillotining all 'enemies of the revolution', real or imagined.
2. Directory. More free, but no direct elections by universal suffrage, and restrictions on freedom of assembly.
3. Napoleonic Consulate: Near dictatorship.
4. Napoleonic empire: Dictatorship.
5. Bourbon restoration.

Well, as you can see, I'm french, I may not use the correct english word sometimes ;) We still say "paysan" in french, and the litteral translation is "peasant"...

How do you call the people who work on the fields growing crops or cattles ?

Small farmers or ranchers, generally.

Peasant, in English, tends to imply something akin to serfdom, being attached to the land and not permitted (by law or dictate of the local baron) to leave.

I vote off Le Pen. I will elaborate later.

He didn't have any democratic successors. Let's see:
1. Convention government. Run on an 'emergency powers' basis to protect the revolution from foreign and internal threats, but did so by suppressing all internal dissent, and guillotining all 'enemies of the revolution', real or imagined.
2. Directory. More free, but no direct elections by universal suffrage, and restrictions on freedom of assembly.
3. Napoleonic Consulate: Near dictatorship.
4. Napoleonic empire: Dictatorship.
5. Bourbon restoration.

The first and second are democratic. They're not liberal, but they are democratic, as they depend on a caretaker as opposed to owner of a state and on wielding the 'will of the people' as opposed to patrimony. Most likely the best of this was when Napoleon was Emperor, effectively making him the new owner of the French state.

We have a clear "winner" (well, loser) for the first round, so we're going to be able to move on to the second.

Here are the results for the first round:

1. Jean-Marie Le Pen: 16 votes (69.57%) => VOTED OFF!
2. José Bové: 3 votes
3. Philippe de Villiers: 2 votes
4. Nicolas Sarkozy: 1 vote
4. Dominique Voynet: 1 vote

The second round, between the 10 remaining candidates, begins NOW!

Who do you want to vote off next?

I'll go for Philippe de Villiers next.

For round 2, I'm voting off Philippe de Villiers.

For round 2, I'm voting off Philippe de Villiers.
Great minds think alike.;)

Dominique Voynet

I am not keen on the Greens...especially left wing greens (sadly a seemingly inclusive term).

Dominique Voynet

again. for the same reasons.

I'm voting of Sarkozy. It's important to get rid of the right wingers with influence.

Ah, voting looks as if it's going to be more divided in the second round. Interesting.

I'll go for Philippe de Villiers next.

Same for me, he's nearly as bad as Le Pen.

Philippe de Villiers out !

Philippe de Villiers

Let's get this Villiers fellow out. Apparently, he is one of those who think France will be destroyed in a wave of multicultrualism.

Well then, looks like my vote will once again go to Bove.

Let's get this Villiers fellow out. Apparently, he is one of those who think France will be destroyed in a wave of multicultrualism.

He is indeed.

BUMP for round 2!

Philippe de Villiers
I agree with that opinion as well. Oust de Villiers!

Moving slowly along the list from right to left...
De Villiers.

We voted off someone from the far right last time, so my inherent sense of fairness dictates that we vote off someone from the left this time.

So....

Bové, s'il vous plait.


Not that I'm in favour of de Villiers (who looks doomed here anyway based on the preceding votes), I'm just trying to be even-handed in my distrustful disdain of political fringes.

Next round I'll vote for de Villiers, and then I'll go after Besancenot.

Here are the results for the second round:

1. Philippe de Villiers: 7 votes (63.64%) => VOTED OFF!
2. José Bové: 2 votes
3. Nicolas Sarkozy: 1 vote
3. Dominique Voynet: 1 vote

The third round, between the 9 remaining candidates, begins NOW!

Who do you want to vote off next?

It's getting hard now, but I'll say Nicolas Dupont-Aignan. Splits from right-wing parties seldom turn out well, I think.

Sarkozy again. Right wingers with big influence need to be voted off quick.

Sarkozy. he was my second choice for round two.

Yes, it should get more and more difficult / interesting as the rounds go by.

I'm voting off Sarkozy.

This is how all elections should go...
Sarkozy! Sarkozy!
Destroy the right!

Olmedreca;12333722']Marie-George Buffet. Someone needs to keep up anti-communist voice in this sea of socialists.

Hey, we don't win real elections, let us have some fun...

Marie-George Buffet. Someone needs to keep up anti-communist voice in this sea of socialists.

Hey, we don't win real elections,.

Lucky France;)

Olmedreca;12333748']Lucky France;)

Whoever wins the real election, it's fairly obvious what France has coming... Blairism.

The poor bastards.

Who do you want to vote off next?

Nicolas Sarkozy.

Buffet, on the fact that his name makes me think of a place where you pay nine dollars to gorge yourself on shitty food.

Whoever wins the real election, it's fairly obvious what France has coming... Blairism.

The poor bastards.

Indeed. :(

Buffet, on the fact that his name makes me think of a place where you pay nine dollars to gorge yourself on shitty food.

Her name. She's a woman.

Ye stupid fecks, what are you voting Le Pen off for? Clearly the man is a true Frenchman with a dash of South American.

Females in leadership?

Hah.

Her name. She's a woman.

Her, whatever.

Ye stupid fecks, what are you voting Le Pen off for? Clearly the man is a true Frenchman with a dash of South American.

South American? :confused:

South American? :confused: Probably socialist and somewhat hornet-like.

*blinks*

Did I say something?

For those of you who are interested (and who understand French), France 24 has recently interviewed Arlette Laguiller, a candidate of the extreme left. You can watch the interview here (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/fr/debats/Politiques-FRANCE-24.html) (second part here (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/fr/archives/debats/2007/Fevrier/Politiques-FRANCE-24-Laguiller-Part-2.html)).

Sarkozy out, he's the real danger of this election... authoritarian neoliberal right, very very dangerous.

It's getting hard now, but I'll say Nicolas Dupont-Aignan. Splits from right-wing parties seldom turn out well, I think.

He's much less worse than Sarkozy, IMHO. He's more of the De Gaulle right, that is bad on inner politics, but at least standing up against US imperialism. While Sarkozy is clearly an ally of GW Bush. And Dupont-Aignan is less neoliberal than Sarkozy.

Sarkozy.

Here are the results for the third round:

1. Nicolas Sarkozy: 7 votes (70%) => VOTED OFF!
2. Marie-George Buffet: 2 votes
3. Nicolas Dupont-Aignant: 1 vote

The fourth round, between the 8 remaining candidates, begins NOW!

Who do you want to vote off next?

From what's left, I vote off Nicolas Dupont-Aignant.

I really didn't expect Sarkozy to get voted off this soon. I'm a little puzzled as to why NSG - of all places - is giving the right such a thrashing.

Not that I mind. :p

Nicolas Dupont-Aignan. Not many right wingers left so I have to pick someone of the remaining.

Nicolas Dupont-Aignant.

I'll vote off Nicolas Dupont-Aignan... like everyone else.

Wow, this may end up being a competition between the leftist candidates....

Wow, this may end up being a competition between the leftist candidates....

Indeed.

Where are all the right-wing voters??

Indeed.

Where are all the right-wing voters??

They're off voting in the real elections.

You mean like all three of them? I know don't what happened. I swear. ;)

They're off voting in the real elections.

Because the two are mutually incompatible... :rolleyes:

Wow, this may end up being a competition between the leftist candidates....

Its clear for some time already that Bove will win this without any problems.;)

Anyway im voting off Marie-George Buffet.

He's much less worse than Sarkozy, IMHO. He's more of the De Gaulle right, that is bad on inner politics, but at least standing up against US imperialism. While Sarkozy is clearly an ally of GW Bush. And Dupont-Aignan is less neoliberal than Sarkozy.
Makes sense. De Gaulle hated everybody.

Here are the results for the third round:

1. Nicolas Sarkozy: 7 votes (70%) => VOTED OFF!
2. Marie-George Buffet: 2 votes
3. Nicolas Dupont-Aignant: 1 vote

The fourth round, between the 8 remaining candidates, begins NOW!

Who do you want to vote off next?
Since Sarkozy is out, I will again go for Nicolas Dupont-Aignant.

Who all is left? Is Dupont-Aignant the most right-wing still on the list? Because in that case, that's who I vote against.

Who all is left? Is Dupont-Aignant the most right-wing still on the list? Because in that case, that's who I vote against.

He is, yes.

With him gone, the most "right-wing" remaining will be François Bayrou, who's just mildly right of centre, and generally refers to himself as a centrist.

BUMP for round 4.

He is, yes.

With him gone, the most "right-wing" remaining will be François Bayrou, who's just mildly right of centre, and generally refers to himself as a centrist.

Well, Bayrou is really to the right... he's pretending to be center for the election, but if you look at his program... tax cuts for corporations, weakening of the Working Code, ... and remember that his party, the UDF, has the power to slow laws in the Senate since 2004, but they never, never did it, even for the infamous CPE (the youth working law that brought 3 millions of people in the streets) nor for the DADVSI (DMCA-like law).

And he's a supporter of the neoliberal EU "constitution" which is why I don't vote this round, I can't chose between Bayrou and Dupont-Aignan, because at least Dupont-Aignan opposed the EU "constitution".

Good point.

Well, it looks as if Dupont-Aignan is going to be voted off in this round, so you can vote against Bayrou in round 5 if you want.

Here are the results for the fourth round:

1. Nicolas Dupont-Aignan: 6 votes (85.71%) => VOTED OFF!
2. Marie-George Buffet: 1 vote

The fifth round, between the 7 remaining candidates, begins NOW!

Who do you want to vote off next?

I'll vote François Bayrou out.

François Bayrou

I vote off François Bayrou.

I vote off François Bayrou.
Same here.

François Bayrou.

Hmm, the next one might actually be competitive.

Yes; votes should be more split in the next round, I think.

François Bayrou for me too.

Wahoo, it's impressive how all the right-wingers are removed in order :)

Yes. Quite baffling.

Could it be that left-wingers are more interested in foreign politics? I don't know. It's really weird.

BUMP for round 5.

François Bayrou for me too.

Wahoo, it's impressive how all the right-wingers are removed in order :)
I hope the same thing happens in the real thing.:eek:

François Bayrou for me too.

Wahoo, it's impressive how all the right-wingers are removed in order :)

Maybe rightwingers simply are not interested in participating in this simply because, it seems to be dominated by, eighter radical left-wingers who all think that Bove is better than any rightwinger, or who all simply gangbang rightwing candidates one-by-one like mindless sheep(NB! it isn't meant to insult anyone here, its just good comparison for current voting trends here).

Olmedreca;12343059']Maybe rightwingers simply are not interested in participating in this simply because, it seems to be dominated by, eighter radical left-wingers who all think that Bove is better than any rightwinger, or who all simply gangbang rightwing candidates one-by-one like mindless sheep(NB! it isn't meant to insult anyone here, its just good comparison for current voting trends here).

Flawed reasoning.

This thread is open to everyone. If right-wing supporters came in en masse, they could swing it their way.

The only explanation I can see so far is that right-wing supporters are less interested than left-wing supporters in foreign politics.

François Bayrou.

Hmm, the next one might actually be competitive.

Since I really don't have the slightest clue what these people stand for, going after the candidate who is "right of centre" seems to be the correct move.

Flawed reasoning.

This thread is open to everyone. If right-wing supporters came in en masse, they could swing it their way.

The only explanation I can see so far is that right-wing supporters are less interested than left-wing supporters in foreign politics.

I don't deny that there are more active leftwingers here but i believe that there would had been more active rightwing minority if all leftwingers didn't vote like one man which makes any effective oppisition by minority impossible.

Besancenot Get em outta here....

Olmedreca;12343162']I don't deny that there are more active leftwingers here but i believe that there would had been more active rightwing minority if all leftwingers didn't vote like one man which makes any effective oppisition by minority impossible.

That's coincidence, though. It's not as if we were actually deciding to all vote the same.

The right are a (virtually absent) "minority" because they have chosen to be so. This thread is open to everyone.

Here are the results for the fifth round:

1. François Bayrou: 7 votes (87.5%) => VOTED OFF!
2. Olivier Besancenot: 1 vote

The sixth round, between the 6 remaining candidates, begins NOW!

Who do you want to vote off next?

That's coincidence, though. It's not as if we were actually deciding to all vote the same.

The right are a (virtually absent) "minority" because they have chosen to be so. This thread is open to everyone.

Oh, I don't blame you in evil conspiracy, I just asked to the question why rightwingers instead of forming active minority are practically nonexistant.

Olmedreca;12343279']Oh, I don't blame you in evil conspiracy, I just asked to the question why rightwingers instead of forming active minority are practically nonexistant.

OK. Well, now that there are only left-wing or left-leaning candidates remaining, let's see whether right-wing supporters re-appear...

I vote off Ségolène Royal.

I'll vote off Ségolène Royal.

Greens, ex-Stalinists, and Trotskyists are better than center-leftists.

I'll vote off Ségolène Royal.

Greens, ex-Stalinists, and Trotskyists are better than center-leftists.

Who is it you see as an "ex-Stalinist"? Laguiller?

I'll vote off José Bové just because he is one of the far leftist.

Who is it you see as an "ex-Stalinist"? Laguiller?

No... the PCF.

I vote off Ségolène Royale, for not being really to the left and for having supported the european "constitution".

But the PCF is not ex-Stalinist ;) They used to be friendly toward Stalin, true, but they never wanted to apply a stalinist system in France, they never wanted to create a one party system or anything similar. Their friendship with Stalin was mostly motivated by the role of Stalin against Hitler, remember that more than 50 000 french communists were executed by the nazi, that's not something you forget easily...

I'll vote off Royal.

They used to be friendly toward Stalin, true, but they never wanted to apply a stalinist system in France, they never wanted to create a one party system or anything similar.

Yeah, I know. I'm not scared of what they would do if they took power; the record of pro-Soviet leftist parties that have done well in democratic elections (since 1950 or so anyway) is actually pretty good.

Their friendship with Stalin was mostly motivated by the role of Stalin against Hitler,

No, it preceded that. And the position of the Comintern parties toward Hitler was always dictated by Moscow; until the invasion of the Soviet Union the PCF didn't even take a strong anti-Nazi stance in France.

That doesn't bother me, though; it was six decades ago. What bothers me is that they then went on to support the invasion of Hungary and the invasion of Czechoslovakia and the invasion of Afghanistan, never wavering in their support for the Eastern Bloc until state capitalism disintegrated in front of them.

Off with you, Royal!

Hmmm... Fairly consensual this round too.

Hmmm... Fairly consensual this round too.

First the right-wingers disappear, then the moderate leftists....

We may end up with a Trotskyist elected.

Wow, I want to live in France, I mean in my country and certainly in the US you would never see openly socialist/communist candidates, and it's sad politics have become so 'moderated' and 'right', people are afraid of anything radical. Royal is too center left. Vive le France!

I vote off Ségolène Royale, for not being really to the left...I vote off La Segolene.. she is a fake.

I'm totally ignorant of French politics, does anyone have a link with some info about this election?

Trotskyism FTW! ;)

Royal

I will now break with my previous practice of targetting the most right wing of the candidates and vote against Olivier Besancenot.

I'm totally ignorant of French politics, does anyone have a link with some info about this election?

You realise the OP links to a Wikipedia article on each candidate?

until the invasion of the Soviet Union the PCF didn't even take a strong anti-Nazi stance in France.

I agree with most of your post, but that's just not true. The germany-ussr pact was the excuse for the french government to ban the PCF and its newspaper, l'Humanité, but that was just an excuse. The first edition of l'Humanité that was banned had as title "national unity against the nazi ennemy", and, on July 10th 1940, when all the other parties voted the full power to Pétain, the PCF (through the Duclos-Thorez call) called for french people to fight against Pétain and the Nazi using every means possible. That's how the Resistance started, in 1940, less than one month after the call of General De Gaulle, and far before Hitler attacked USSR.

BUMP for round 6.

I'm going to vote off Olivier Besancenot, simply based on inexperience. His heart is in the right place, but I don't think he could intelligently oppose the moneyed and the powerful who will try to bring him down.

I'm going to vote off Olivier Besancenot, simply based on inexperience. His heart is in the right place, but I don't think he could intelligently oppose the moneyed and the powerful who will try to bring him down.

Interesting reason... OK, then; vote noted.

I vote them all off and call for the return of the French Monarchy!!!! :)

Dominique Voynet DAMMIT!!!

Royal.

Here are the results for the sixth round:

1. Ségolène Royal: 8 votes (66.67%) => VOTED OFF!
2. Olivier Besancenot: 2 votes
3. José Bové: 1 vote
3. Dominique Voynet: 1 vote

The seventh round, between the 5 remaining candidates, begins NOW!

Who do you want to vote off next?

Dominique Voynet, I guess.

Off with Voynet!

What are the differences between the Ligue Communiste Révolutionnaire and Lutte Ouvrière?

It's getting tricky now, but I'm going to have to (regretfully) get rid of Dominique Voynet. Les Verts aren't (in my view) a particularly credible Green party.

What are the differences between the Ligue Communiste Révolutionnaire and Lutte Ouvrière?

Not very many. In fact, they're on friendly terms.

If you want the Wiki articles: here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Communist_League_(France)) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutte_Ouvri%C3%A8re).

These are the remaining candidates, in alphabetical order:

* Olivier Besancenot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivier_Besancenot) (Ligue Communiste Révolutionnaire, far left)
* José Bové (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Bov%C3%A9) (independent, far left)
* Marie-George Buffet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie-George_Buffet) (Parti Communiste Français, left-wing)
* Arlette Laguiller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlette_Laguiller) (Lutte Ouvrière, far left)
* Dominique Voynet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominique_Voynet) (Les Verts, left-wing green)

Holy shit! That's a land slide for the left. Who all is voting on this.

I think I'll vote off Laguiller. Don't really care for Trotskyists.

Olivier Besancenot, again, for the same reason as last time.

Hum, it's getting hard now... Voynet is not enough to the left for my taste, and she supported the neoliberal european "constitution"... but on the other side, Laguiller has an absolutist, nearly fanatic stance, and her party LO is almost a sect...

Hum, let's vote off Laguiller for this round.

Laguiller has an absolutist, nearly fanatic stance

Care to elaborate?

I'm trying to choose between the two Trotskyist candidates....

Oh jeez...looks like the lefties have taken over.

Let's hope for the French working class that this doesn't happen in real life.

Oh jeez...looks like the lefties have taken over.

Let's hope for the French working class that this doesn't happen in real life.

Don't know what your on, but socialism benefits to the urban and industrial working classes.

Off with Dominique Voynet

Don't know what your on, but socialism benefits to the urban and industrial working classes.
Hehe...yeah, right. Except that this is the 21st century, and all it does is create capital flight and unemployment.

Hehe...yeah, right. Except that this is the 21st century, and all it does is create capital flight and unemployment.

Without the state to support the people, who will? The private sector? I don't think so. You forget that the instrument of the state is the interference in the private sector on behalf of the public interest, that is the role of the state. The strengthening of the state can only mean the strengthening of the public through reallocation and gross corporate expenditure. Of course greedy foreign capitalists will dislike interference, but with the establishment of social capital and nationalisation of assets, distribution will become infinetely more efficient.

Without the state to support the people, who will?
People will. You see, despite all the pro-people rhetoric of socialists, I don't think they have all that much respect or esteem for what people are capable of.

Of course greedy foreign capitalists will dislike interference, but with the establishment of social capital and nationalisation of assets, distribution will become infinetely more efficient.
So...do you have anything at all to back that up? There is basically no economic theory or model in existence which says that nationalisation could actually increase efficiency in a modern economy like France's.

I mean, there was social capital and nationalisation of assets (especially that) in the Soviet Bloc. But it didn't really help them all that much. Even today, some 18 years after the wall fell, people in Eastern Germany still live in relatively crappy conditions compared to their greedy neighbours in the west.

Or to come back to France...how come there is so much youth unemployment there, to the point where a whole generation of kids grows up with little regard for the future? Don't you think that it should be made easier, rather than more difficult, to employ these people and give them a chance to stand on their own two feet and build themselves a life?

Care to elaborate?

I'm trying to choose between the two Trotskyist candidates....

Well, first, Laguiller always refused any attempt to unite the "radical" left, she refused to campaign with the other (Besancenot, Bové and Buffet and many others) against the european "constitution", ...

Then, in 2002, she didn't call to vote against the fascist Le Pen, with a very stupid (IMHO) argument: if Le Pen is elected, the climate would be favorable for a revolution...

But the worse is if you look at the voting record of members of her party... they voted against the Tobin tax (a small tax on international transaction in favor of developping countries, with a double aim of taking money from the financial market, and to discourage small-term transaction in favor of medium-term or long-term ones) in the European Parliament because taxing financial transaction is accepting them... they voted against the fixing of a public high school at a regional level, because (since there are no public construction companies in France) the company hired to do the fixing was a private corporation... that's what I call fanatism.

Overall, if you look at her speach and the voting record of her party, they have a "everything or nothing" attitude that is really stubborn. The LCR is much more open-minded and realistic. Of course, you need a bit of stubborness to not fall against the pressure of the "power of the money", but she's taking it way too far, IMHO.

People will. You see, despite all the pro-people rhetoric of socialists, I don't think they have all that much respect or esteem for what people are capable of.

Because capitalism doesn't give the power to "people", but to capitalists. Even in "rich" countries, 1-2% of the population controls half of the stock market. The more capitalist the system is, and the more they hold power over the 99-98% remaining of the population. And they don't use this power for the general good, they use it to maximize their own short term profits.


So...do you have anything at all to back that up? There is basically no economic theory or model in existence which says that nationalisation could actually increase efficiency in a modern economy like France's.

The fact that the sectors in which France is more efficient that comparable countries, the sectors in which it's a recognized world leader, are sectors which used to be either totally or mostly nationalised (public transports, electricity, aircraft industry, ...) is absolutely nothing to back that up.

The fact that since the (partial) privatisation of GDF and EDF the prices went up and the quality of service down, is nothing to back that up ?

The fiasco of privatisation of railroad in UK, of electricity in Italy or Florida, all that is nothing to back that up ?

I mean, there was social capital and nationalisation of assets (especially that) in the Soviet Bloc. But it didn't really help them all that much. Even today, some 18 years after the wall fell, people in Eastern Germany still live in relatively crappy conditions compared to their greedy neighbours in the west.

In fact, they live *now* in more crappy conditions than what they used to at DDR time. I don't support the DDR system, because I don't like a one-party system, the lack of freedom of speach or the Stasi, but they didn't have unemployment, they had completly free high quality health care, completly free high quality education, and everyone had a roof to sleep on. It was not perfect, but the extreme misery you can see in eastern germany now didn't exist at that time.

And that's even more true in Russia, in eastern Germany they received a lot of help from both western Germany and the EU, so their situation is not too bad, compared to what it would have been if they went back from the crappy form of socialism they had to capitalism alone.

Or to come back to France...how come there is so much youth unemployment there, to the point where a whole generation of kids grows up with little regard for the future? Don't you think that it should be made easier, rather than more difficult, to employ these people and give them a chance to stand on their own two feet and build themselves a life?

That's because of 30 years of neoliberal policies, and all the consequences of that: lowering of the quality of public education, lowering of social help (which allows people who face a difficult time to recover from it), privatisations and its downsizing followup, outsourcing due to "free trade" policies, ...

In a capitalist system, the wealth created (roughly the GDP, even if it's arguable) is divided between work and capital. In the latest 30 years, thanks to neoliberal policies, in France like everywhere else, the share that goes to the capital went from 15% to 30%, while the share that goes to work went from 85% to 70%. And it's becoming even worse.. THAT is the problem France is facing. That's what the next governement must defeat. All the other problems (deficit of the social security system, low wages, unemployment, ...) are consequences of this fundamental shift, which was made possible by neoliberal policies.

Here are the results for the seventh round:

1. Dominique Voynet: 4 votes (57.14%) => VOTED OFF!
2. Arlette Laguiller: 2 votes
3. Olivier Besancenot: 1 vote

The eighth round, between the 4 remaining candidates, begins NOW!

Who do you want to vote off next?

Arlette Laguiller, purely because I prefer the LCR (from what little I know).

Laguiller

It's getting difficult but, of the four that are left, I'll have to say Arlette Laguiller.

Royal for President! w00t!


Hell, I don't really care. But I would prefer her winning to the centre-right candidate.

Don't know what your on, but socialism benefits to the urban and industrial working classes.

But society consists of more than the working class...

oooppps! thats 'democracy' fucked then!

Arlette Laguiller, purely because I prefer the LCR (from what little I know).

I whole heartedly agree. I hate having to pick between Trotskyists, but I think that when in doubt, the most orthodox Trotskyist should be the first to go.

I have some serious problems with Leninism in any form (The State and Revolution is completely ignored by most Leninist theorists, so its anti-authoritarian ethos doesn't count in the Leninist proper.) One party states with democratic centralism and massive centralization of the means of production seems antithetical to socialism.

So out with Laguiller.

Here are the results for the seventh round:

1. Dominique Voynet: 4 votes (57.14%) => VOTED OFF!
2. Arlette Laguiller: 2 votes
3. Olivier Besancenot: 1 vote

The eighth round, between the 4 remaining candidates, begins NOW!

Who do you want to vote off next?

w00t!!!! Brilliant!!!

Now for the rest of the rounds any but the mustachioed mental farmer!!!

I dig Bove (sp?)...anyone who campaigns about GLOBAL ISSUES is cool by me. Yeah...on all sides.

Now I could rant about this but I won't. Suffice it to say that there is a new reality in world politics. War is not the only solution to intractable issues.

But society consists of more than the working class...

oooppps! thats 'democracy' fucked then!

70-80% of any society falls under the left wing defintion of "working class" which is what I think he had in mind. Simply, anyone who works for others and is paid a wage or salary and doesn't primarily obtain income from the ownership of property is under this definition of "working class."

It ignores the level of income and instead looks at where the income comes from, which is less arbitrary then demarcating a certain income percentile as being "working class" and those above being a so-called "middle class."

70-80% of any society falls under the left wing defintion of "working class" which is what I think he had in mind. Simply, anyone who works for others and is paid a wage or salary and doesn't primarily obtain income from the ownership of property is under this definition of "working class."

It ignores the level of income and instead looks at where the income comes from, which is less arbitrary then demarcating a certain income percentile as being "working class" and those above being a so-called "middle class."

Bollocks.

Ah, whatever, I'll follow the crowd: Laguiller.

Laguiller for me, for the same reasons than before.

And then, we'll be left with the three candidates I've an overall positive opinion of :)

Marie-George Buffet, 'cause Stalin killed Trotsky. And some other people.

Marie-George Buffet, 'cause Stalin killed Trotsky. And some other people.

Buffet is not a Stalinist, by any conceivable definition.

BUMP for Round 8.

By the way, if you want to find out more about Sarkozy, he apparently now has an office in Second Life (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/news/france.html). :p

Here are the results for the eighth round:

1. Arlette Laguiller: 6 votes (85.71%) => VOTED OFF!
2. Marie-George Buffet: 1 vote

The ninth and penultimate round, between the 3 remaining candidates, begins NOW!

Who do you want to vote off next?

Even revisionist Trotskyism is in my opinion too dangerous to be given complete control of government.

You'd rather support the PCF?

I think that Olivier Besancenot should go next.

Same reason as before. Even revisionist Trotskyism is in my opinion too dangerous to be given complete control of government. State capitalism = bad!

I think that Olivier Besancenot should go next.

Same reason as before. Even revisionist Trotskyism is in my opinion too dangerous to be given complete control of government. State capitalism = bad!

What does Trotskyism have to do with State Capitalism?

You do realize that Buffet is still in there, that is, if you consider the regime in the ussr state capitalism.

Off with Buffet.

What does Trotskyism have to do with State Capitalism?

You do realize that Buffet is still in there, that is, if you consider the regime in the ussr state capitalism.

Everything. Most Trotskyism is simply a reiteration of Leninism, and seeks to blame the failure of the revolution in the USSR on outside circumstances, not the blindingly obvious fact that an omnipotent state the controls all of a nation's resources is antithetical to socialist beliefs of freedom and equality.

Buffet will be the next one I vote off. I'm not entirely certain if Buffet is a leninist or not. She seemed more like a Eurocommunist revisionist.

I'm (regretfully) voting off José Bové.

That's beginning to be really hard... but let's say Besancenot, for not having done any real effort in order to unite the genuine left.

I'm (regretfully) voting off José Bové.

So far a three way tie.

May I ask your reasoning?

This is a difficult one. I can see good reasons for both keeping and removing all three.
I'm voting off Bové. I don't like it, but I think that it would be very difficult for an independent nonpartisan President to function effectively without a poll of supporters to appoint as Prime Minister and the various ministries, and to work alongside allies in Parliament, although considering the nature of the French Senate, the latter could be a problem for any centre-centre left government.

Buffet will be the next one I vote off. I'm not entirely certain if Buffet is a leninist or not. She seemed more like a Eurocommunist revisionist.

Well, I'm not fond of using "people name"-ist, be it "marxist", "leninist", "stalinist", "troskist" or whatever. No one will ever agree 100% with another one, everyone contradict himself at a point in his life, and interpreting the work of someone who lived 100 years ago into the modern world is always subjective.

Marie-George has *some* ideas coming from Lenin, some from Marx, some from Trotsky, some from many other people.

But overall, she doesn't support "state capitalism". She supports strong state-owned public services in some area (healthcare, education, transport, energy, communication, water, housing, ...), but democratised ones, with a part of direct control from workers and users. For the rest, she mostly support, at least for the short term, measures like increasing the power of workers' delegate inside corporations, increasing minimal wages and social help, ... that is, what "social democracy" should be.

She also support creating a new Republic, with a new Constitution, lowering the powers of the president, increasing the one of the Parliament, and the control of citizens over the government.

For the longer term, well, the debate is open. But you cannot at the same time claim you want more democracy and give back the power to the citizen, and at the same time decide everything for them...

The program itself was drafted in a participative way, first during the "forum programme" (in which every citizen could come and discuss their ideas and wishes) organised in 2004 and 2005, and then inside the "collectifs d'initiative populaire pour une alternative à gauche", which finally collapsed on the person to support (the majority chose to support Marie-George Buffet, the minority José Bové), but which managed to write a nearly complete program before.

Well, of course, everything is more complex than that, but it's hard to summarize it in a few lines, and writing in english doesn't help ;)

May I ask your reasoning?

I've got nothing against Bové, but I don't really want to vote off either of the other two. As Kilobugya said, it's getting difficult.

Everything. Most Trotskyism is simply a reiteration of Leninism, and seeks to blame the failure of the revolution in the USSR on outside circumstances, not the blindingly obvious fact that an omnipotent state the controls all of a nation's resources is antithetical to socialist beliefs of freedom and equality.

Buffet will be the next one I vote off. I'm not entirely certain if Buffet is a leninist or not. She seemed more like a Eurocommunist revisionist.

I don't agree that Lenin advocated State Capitalism. I don't agree that the USSR was State Capitalist.

I don't know what you mean by outside circumstances, but Stalin and his Thermidor seem like "inside" circumstances.

The state was only supposed to have more power during the civil war against the capitalist remnant and than to wane away as stated by Lenin in "The State and Revolution"

Anyway, I'm voting Buffet off.

Shit! This is hard. Buffet.

BUMP for round 9.

I'm voting Buffet off.

Here are the results for the ninth round:

1. Marie-George Buffet: 5 votes (62.5%) => VOTED OFF!
2. Olivier Besancenot: 2 votes
3. José Bové: 1 vote

The tenth and final round, between the 2 remaining candidates, begins NOW!

Who do you want to vote off next?

I'm voting off José Bové.

I'm voting off Olivier Besancenot

I'm voting off José Bové.
So am I, as I did last time, and didn't count me...:(

Off with Bové.

Bove needs to get the f00k out.

Bové because he doesn't seem to have a structured plan.

And by the way, Trotskylvania, in France the President is not in charge of the Government.

I gues Bove must go then. I really don't like having to make this choice, but at this point I think that it may be the best. Oh well, the LCR gets this one.

Well, after some debate I'll vote off Bove. As Vladimir Illich said, he doesn't seem to have some sort of plan.

I don't agree that Lenin advocated State Capitalism. I don't agree that the USSR was State Capitalist.

I don't know what you mean by outside circumstances, but Stalin and his Thermidor seem like "inside" circumstances.

The state was only supposed to have more power during the civil war against the capitalist remnant and than to wane away as stated by Lenin in "The State and Revolution"

Anyway, I'm voting Buffet off.

The principle program of most strains of leninism involve a vanguard party taking over the state and using it to smash the bourgeouisie and collectivize all production under control of the vanguard. The vanguard is then suppossed to "lead" the people into the glorious world of the marxian communist utopia where the state has "whithered away." Funnily enough, the vanguard never seems to want to give up its power...

Which leads to people like Stalin making a bad situation worse. The term "state capitalism" simply means that the organization of the state is exactly parallel to a capitalist firm. Everything is top down, and a few oligarches control everything (it makes little difference whether they are a bourgeois elites or Communist party intellectual elites).

"The State and Revolution" by Lenin breaks with most of his thoughts prior. Its basically an anarchistic tract that discards vangaurd party and democratic centralism for a left communistic approach to revolution. However, in practice Lenin and his lieutenants showed little regard to following it, and discarded all of its ideas within 6 monthes.

Whatever, the French need Napoleon back. Thats one of the few times France was cool

-snip-
I'm not gonna respond to the propaganda, but I just thought I'd answer your question for why some French firms are doing extraordinarlily well. It's because the leading people in France are all corrupt swine. Both on the left and on the right.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,467940,00.html

als, the last to candidates are both far-left.

Well, this sucks. I say we vote both off.

Here are the results for the tenth and final round:

1. José Bové: 7 votes (100%) => VOTED OFF!

And so the winner of the French Presidential elections here in NSG is...
Olivier Besancenot!

Thank you all for taking part.

Great! Vive la France Communiste!

I doubt however he would win in Real Life...

By the way: a poll on which candidate (Royal or Sarkozy) is seen by people in various countries as best able to represent France on the international scene: here (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/news/france.html).

Well, congrats Olivier !

My favorite was Marie-George, but I would be very happy if it happened like that in real life :)

Great! Vive la France Communiste!

I doubt however he would win in Real Life...

Understatement of the year.

If a 33 year old Trotskyist was elected for French President either his own head would explode with amazement or Germany would invade...

If a 33 year old Trotskyist was elected for French President either his own head would explode with amazement or Germany would invade...
Now that would actually be something I'd consider joining the military for. :p

...NationStates elected the commie.

...What. A. Fucking. Shock.

Actually, yes, I'm surprised. Right-wingers tend to be very vocal around here.

Here are the results for the tenth and final round:

1. José Bové: 7 votes (100%) => VOTED OFF!

And so the winner of the French Presidential elections here in NSG is...
Olivier Besancenot!

Thank you all for taking part.

Trotskyists have faked the election results, votes aganist their candidate were not counted. Here is proof:

Olmedreca;12357845']I'm voting off Olivier Besancenot

I call for French army intervention and setting up temporary military government until order is restored! :D

Olmedreca;12364455']Here is proof:

I missed a vote? :eek:

Sorry about that. It was at the bottom of a page, and somehow I missed it.

It doesn't change the end result, in any case.