NationStates Jolt Archive

I don't understand why denying the Holocaust is illegal in so many European countries. These laws only increase anti-Semitism. Apparently these Jews enjoy their victim status, so they are afraid that facts may ruin it. If the Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, then what does anyone have to fear from a complete investigation?

Holocaust deniers belong in the Corner of Mockery alongside Young-Earth Creationists, Evolution Deniers, and Global Warming Skeptics.

whats the difference between young earth creationists and evolution deniers?

Apparently these Jews enjoy their victim status, so they are afraid that facts may ruin it. If the Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, then what does anyone have to fear from a complete investigation?

No one claims anything, no facts are being withheld and there is really no need for an investigation. It really did happen. A whole bunch of people didn't just suddenly come up with the story and just think, "All right, let's go with this." I'm not sure what more you want.

Holocaust deniers belong in the Corner of Mockery alongside Young-Earth Creationists, Evolution Deniers, and Global Warming Skeptics.

Nah, they're a lot worse.

Creationists and Global Warming Skeptics are pretty dumb, but they have neither the hatred or the outright cruelty to deny the murder of over 12 million innocent people at the hands of the Nazi regime.

Holocaust deniers belong in the Corner of Mockery alongside Young-Earth Creationists, Evolution Deniers, and Global Warming Skeptics.

*Nods vigorously* QFT

whats the difference between young earth creationists and evolution deniers?

You can still be a creationist and acknowledge that the universe is billions of years old. A young earth creationist posits that the universe is about 6,000 years old.

I don't understand why denying the Holocaust is illegal in so many European countries. These laws only increase anti-Semitism. Apparently these Jews enjoy their victim status, so they are afraid that facts may ruin it. If the Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, then what does anyone have to fear from a complete investigation?

Because there have already been many complete investigations by multiple groups for the past 61 years. The facts are that the Nazis murdered between 6 and 12 million people; there is no debate on whether or not it happened, and there is no debate that the Nazis killed millions of people.

Nah, they're a lot worse.

Creationists and Global Warming Skeptics are pretty dumb, but they have neither the hatred or the outright cruelty to deny the murder of over 12 million innocent people at the hands of the Nazi regime.

Unless you're talking about that subset of creationists who claim that the theory of evolution is what made Hitler into a mass-murderer.

I don't understand why denying the Holocaust is illegal in so many European countries. These laws only increase anti-Semitism. Apparently these Jews enjoy their victim status, so they are afraid that facts may ruin it. If the Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, then what does anyone have to fear from a complete investigation?

Ladies and gentlemen, here we see a lovely specimen of Nuttus fornicatus in its natural habitat, the anonymous internet forum.

You can still be a creationist and acknowledge that the universe is billions of years old. A young earth creationist posits that the universe is about 6,000 years old.

And was made in exactly 6 days + 1 day of rest. No word on the dinosaurs, though a Jehovah's Witness friend of mine once tried to convince me that Lucifer put their bones underground to mess with us.

Because of the Prince of Darkness wants nothing more than to screw over a bunch of archaeologists.

I am deeply suspicious of any measures that make free speech illegal.

However I'd be alot more supportive of Holocaust deniers right to free speech if they didnt always seem to be inspired by their own anti-semetic feelings or hateful agendas to begin with.

its illegal in so many central European countries because a certain war is dragged up everyday I’m sure I would do the same (in fact lets ban talk of a certain war so that we never have another one of these threads again)

As for my opinion on the matter its understandable but I say its wrong and fairly pointless attack on the freedom of speech but still understandable in short: I don’t care (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWnuGcI8QwU)

Unless you're talking about that subset of creationists who claim that the theory of evolution is what made Hitler into a mass-murderer.

Well, yeah, but a lot of them are outcasts even within the creationist circle. I mean, just look at Kent Hovind...most creationists want nothing to do with that nut.

I don't understand why denying the Holocaust is illegal in so many European countries. These laws only increase anti-Semitism. Apparently these Jews enjoy their victim status, so they are afraid that facts may ruin it. If the Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, then what does anyone have to fear from a complete investigation?

I think you are an anti-semite.

And was made in exactly 6 days + 1 day of rest. No word on the dinosaurs, though a Jehovah's Witness friend of mine once tried to convince me that Lucifer put their bones underground to mess with us.

Because of the Prince of Darkness wants nothing more than to screw over a bunch of archaeologists.

That's odd my Fundie Brother told me that god put them there to test our faith. So which is it huh? huh? tell me, go on. :D

(he also told me that he could see the demons hovering around me waiting for the moment that they could take my soul away to hell)

On the topic of strange, now outdated beliefs: The Flat Earth Society (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society)

That's odd my Fundie Brother told me that god put them there to test our faith. So which is it huh? huh? tell me, go on. :D

(he also told me that he could see the demons hovering around me waiting for the moment that they could take my soul away to hell)

Well clearly your brother is possessed and needs to be stabbed several times with the pointy end of a sharpened crucifix.

That's just my thought on the matter, though. Holy water might work just as well if it was laced with sulfuric acid.

I think you are an anti-semite.

I think he's 12 and freinds with that man on the bus

Well clearly your brother is possessed and needs to be stabbed several times with the pointy end of a sharpened crucifix.

That's just my thought on the matter, though. Holy water might work just as well if it was laced with sulfuric acid.

Nah, that would probably just strengthen the demon. Who knows what a demon possessing an acid-covered body could do? :eek:

Huh, the OP's not here. I guess it's hit and run troll.

Hey, wow. Somebody starting a highly inflammatory thread and then not following up with any posts or using any actual news items. If we're not careful, others may do this and we'll have to come up with a derogatory term for them. Perhaps, something which is hunched and has an unnatural fondness for low lying bridges.

Nah, that would probably just strengthen the demon. Who knows what a demon possessing an acid-covered body could do? :eek:

Good point. Also, sorry for the unintentional detour this thread has taken.

Holocaust deniers belong in the Corner of Mockery alongside Young-Earth Creationists, Evolution Deniers, and Global Warming Skeptics.

LMFAO

Yeah, because global warming is fact. Puh-lease. Global warming is a very believable theory, the holocaust is pretty much universally accepted as a historical fact.

Comparing holocaust deniers to global warming sceptics is quite pitiful, same with evolution deniers actually. I am as atheist as you come but I know evolution is a theory, and not fact. I believe in evolution, it does not make it as factual or conclusive as the occurrence of the holocaust.

I think you are an anti-semite. And I think that if the Holocaust is an easily verifiable fact, then laws do not need to be passed to make denying it a crime. Laws on speech are there to protect lies, not truth.

And don't flame me, because I reject all the Holocaust-denial bullshit. The Armenian genocide happened as well. But I should be within my rights to say that they didn't happen, no matter how wrong I might be.

Nah, that would probably just strengthen the demon. Who knows what a demon possessing an acid-covered body could do? :eek:

Oh the things I could tell you about him, but sadly this thread was not titled "Please post your Character Assasinations here".

Enough to say that I hear he has actually recently turned to Paganism. Mostly I suspect because his new mistress is a Yoga Instructor and he has now seperated from his (also born again xtian) wife due (in part) to his penchant for aquiring mistresses.

And I think that if the Holocaust is an easily verifiable fact, then laws do not need to be passed to make denying it a crime. Laws on speech are there to protect lies, not truth.

Holocaust denial laws are to help ensure that anti-semitism does not become widespread and lead to nationalistic jew-hating because the last time that happened, it ended badly for everyone.

Perhaps, something which is hunched and has an unnatural fondness for low lying bridges.

A Republican? :p


I joke.

And I think that if the Holocaust is an easily verifiable fact, then laws do not need to be passed to make denying it a crime. Laws on speech are there to protect lies, not truth.

And don't flame me, because I reject all the Holocaust-denial bullshit. The Armenian genocide happened as well. But I should be within my rights to say that they didn't happen, no matter how wrong I might be.

I think most people agree with this stance. Holocaust denial is such a bunch of false, ignorant bullshit that making it illegal does nothing but give the assholes that spread these lies an air of legitimacy they don't deserve.

Oh the things I could tell you about him, but sadly this thread was not titled "Please post your Character Assasinations here".

Who wants to start a thread? We can begin with the OP!

Yeah, because global warming is fact. Puh-lease.

Oh come on, even a monkey could spot the correlation between human emissions and global warming. Global warming skeptics are there to protect economies, not ecosystems. It's quite sad really.

Comparing holocaust deniers to global warming sceptics is quite pitiful, same with evolution deniers actually.

No it's not, it's quite accurate.

Oh the things I could tell you about him, but sadly this thread was not titled "Please post your Character Assasinations here".

Enough to say that I hear he has actually recently turned to Paganism. Mostly I suspect because his new mistress is a Yoga Instructor and he has now seperated from his (also born again xtian) wife due (in part) to his penchant for aquiring mistresses.

Well then he wasn't all that fundie to begin with, was he? *pulls out crystal ball* I see an Inquisition in his future.

Holocaust denial laws are to help ensure that anti-semitism does not become widespread and lead to nationalistic jew-hating because the last time that happened, it ended badly for everyone.

Problem is that it really does not stop it. If anything it drives it underground.

Problem is that it really does not stop it. If anything it drives it underground.

Better underground than in the forefront of national politics a la 1930's.

I don't understand why denying the Holocaust is illegal in so many European countries. These laws only increase anti-Semitism. Apparently these Jews enjoy their victim status, so they are afraid that facts may ruin it. If the Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, then what does anyone have to fear from a complete investigation?

I'm not gonna say that a "complete investigation" has been done several times, instead I'll say...

:eek: Oh noes, you're right! It's a pan-european conspiracy! They're all in on it! Run for the hills! :rolleyes:

Problem is that it really does not stop it. If anything it drives it underground.

As any law does to any activity.

Hey, wow. Somebody starting a highly inflammatory thread and then not following up with any posts or using any actual news items. If we're not careful, others may do this and we'll have to come up with a derogatory term for them. Perhaps, something which is hunched and has an unnatural fondness for low lying bridges.

Quasimoato?

*badum pshh*

Better underground than in the forefront of national politics a la 1930's.

Or like the 20's?

Personally I prefer the right to laugh at these fuckwits.

Better underground than in the forefront of national politics a la 1930's.

Nations without these laws seem to have fewer problems with anti-Semitism than those that do.

:eek: Oh noes, you're right! It's a pan-european conspiracy! They're all in on it! Run for the hills! :rolleyes:

It was Prince Charles! The CIA! MI6! Fifa! The Brownies! Rupert Murdoch!

[/dead ringers]

As any law does to any activity.

Yes and no. Depends really on what the activity is innit?

Quasimoato?

*badum pshh*

Quasimodo, dear.

Holocaust deniers belong in the Corner of Mockery alongside Young-Earth Creationists, Evolution Deniers, and Global Warming Skeptics.

Also Scientologists.

Yes and no. Depends really on what the activity is innit?

Well, I suppose. Take drugs, or alcohol. So many people take drugs it's unreal, and so many underage people drink booze it's funny. You live in the UK. I bet you could name 5 people who smoke weed like that. *clicks fingers*

And was made in exactly 6 days + 1 day of rest. No word on the dinosaurs, though a Jehovah's Witness friend of mine once tried to convince me that Lucifer put their bones underground to mess with us.

Because of the Prince of Darkness wants nothing more than to screw over a bunch of archaeologists.

That would be odd because that's not Witness teaching. They're creationists, but not young-earthers. They rely on an interesting interpretation of the word "day" to get around the issue, though they do believe that humans are only about 6,000 years old, and are definitely evolution deniers.

Oh come on, even a monkey could spot the correlation between human emissions and global warming. Global warming skeptics are there to protect economies, not ecosystems. It's quite sad really.

Ah yes of course. Human emissions of CO2 account for 6 million tonnes a year of the 120 million a year released into the atmosphere, the rest is made up by biological and seismic activity.

No it's not, it's quite accurate.Comparing fact to theory is never accurate.

The Holocaust...that was a book by Micheal Crichton, wasn't it?

It was Prince Charles! The CIA! MI6! Fifa! The Brownies! Rupert Murdoch!

[/dead ringers]

EUROPEANS DID WTC

LMFAO

Yeah, because global warming is fact. Puh-lease. Global warming is a very believable theory, the holocaust is pretty much universally accepted as a historical fact.

Comparing holocaust deniers to global warming sceptics is quite pitiful, same with evolution deniers actually. I am as atheist as you come but I know evolution is a theory, and not fact. I believe in evolution, it does not make it as factual or conclusive as the occurrence of the holocaust.

Go sit in the corner with your brethren.

A Republican? :p


I joke.
Hey, no need for political sniping.

Newt Gingrich makes me give him five dollars everytime I go over the train tracks by my house

Oh come on, even a monkey could spot the correlation between human emissions and global warming. Global warming skeptics are there to protect economies, not ecosystems. It's quite sad really.



No it's not, it's quite accurate.

Actually, possibly not just human emissions, cattle and sheep produce large quantities of methane, a very potent greenhouse gas, in their digestive systems. Granted they are farmed by humans and as such you could argue those gases are indirectly caused by us.

I must admit to being a little sceptical about global warming. I hear we are still comming out of the last ice age and that the climate would be warming anyway. But before anyone shouts me down I should say that I am quite prepared to believe that we are accelerating the warming process though but remain sceptical that we are the sole cause. I believe, though I can't remember where I heard it, that the earth's climate has been a lot warmer in the past than it is now. So sceptical yes, dismissive no, I still prefer to err on the side of caution and advocate reducing the impact we have as much as possible.

And yes, it is a fact that evolution happens, it's a theory that it has been the driving force behind life on earth but a very very strong one supported by much empirical evidence. People forget that evolution doesn't take many years, it takes many generations. So in species that have short life spans we can see natural selection happening in both the real world and the lab. In the lab we are controling the environment for sure, but the selection process is still a natural process. In the real world we see it all the time as different diseases adapt to our antibiotics.

I don't understand why denying the Holocaust is illegal in so many European countries. These laws only increase anti-Semitism. Apparently these Jews enjoy their victim status, so they are afraid that facts may ruin it. If the Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, then what does anyone have to fear from a complete investigation?

Fuck off and go play with your Hitler doll.

Ah yes of course. Human emissions of CO2 account for 6 million tonnes a year of the 120 million a year released into the atmosphere, the rest is made up by biological and seismic activity.
Not just emissions. Massive deforestation is getting rid of the oxygen basins in places like the Amazon and Zaire. Humankind is doing a lot to fuck up this planet, that is undeniable.

Comparing fact to theory is never accurate.
Then how is someone ever supposed to prove a theory, if you can't compare it against fact?

Fuck off and go play with your Hitler doll.

Calm down dear, it's only a 12 year old hit and troll run trying to piss us all off. And you're rising to it.

Such laws defy logic. Suppression of information, and arrest, was an element of the Nazi apparatus, the very same that Germany seeks to seperate itself from....:rolleyes:

You are a pinnacle of reasoned argument.

In the same way that a tomato is blue.

Fuck off and go play with your Hitler doll.

You are a pinnacle of reasoned argument.

I don't understand why denying the Holocaust is illegal in so many European countries. These laws only increase anti-Semitism. Apparently these Jews enjoy their victim status, so they are afraid that facts may ruin it. If the Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, then what does anyone have to fear from a complete investigation?

As far as I can tell its not primarily Jewish people pushing for it. Its not only Europe that states that the Holocaust is factual. And theres been more than one "complete" investigation.

Well, I suppose. Take drugs, or alcohol. So many people take drugs it's unreal, and so many underage people drink booze it's funny. You live in the UK. I bet you could name 5 people who smoke weed like that. *clicks fingers*

yeah pretty much. in fact I'd find it harder to name 5 people in my social circle who do not partake of the occasional toke.

However all are adults or not younger than their late 20's...

Such laws defy logic. Suppression of information, and arrest, was an element of the Nazi apparatus, the very same that Germany seeks to seperate itself from....:rolleyes:

What information can be gathered from a lie?

EUROPEANS DID WTC

how can someone do "what the crap?"?

Actually, possibly not just human emissions, cattle and sheep produce large quantities of methane, a very potent greenhouse gas, in their digestive systems. Granted they are farmed by humans and as such you could argue those gases are indirectly caused by us.

I must admit to being a little sceptical about global warming. I hear we are still comming out of the last ice age and that the climate would be warming anyway. But before anyone shouts me down I should say that I am quite prepared to believe that we are accelerating the warming process though but remain sceptical that we are the sole cause. I believe, though I can't remember where I heard it, that the earth's climate has been a lot warmer in the past than it is now. So sceptical yes, dismissive no, I still prefer to err on the side of caution and advocate reducing the impact we have as much as possible.

And yes, it is a fact that evolution happens, it's a theory that it has been the driving force behind life on earth but a very very strong one supported by much empirical evidence. People forget that evolution doesn't take many years, it takes many generations. So in species that have short life spans we can see natural selection happening in both the real world and the lab. In the lab we are controling the environment for sure, but the selection process is still a natural process. In the real world we see it all the time as different diseases adapt to our antibiotics.

Sort of. Microevolution, evolution within a species, is a proven, observable fact. We see this happening with the mutation in the Flu virus that result in a new vaccine being required almost annually, and with the constant mutation of the AIDS virus. Also with the variation and adaptation of species to new environments.

Macroevolution, evolution from one species into a brand new one, is still a theory, and in many ways is an extrapolation from microevolution. There is strong, well-supported evidence for this, but it isn't scientific fact until we can observe the creation of a new, unique species from a previous one.

However, the words "fact" and "theory" often get a big bastardized in common usage. A scientific fact isn't the same thing as an historical fact, and a scientific theory isn't the same thing as a generic theory. An historical fact is a piece of well-recorded data about the past. A scientific fact is an observation of a phenomenon. A generic theory is merely a statement as to how something might work. A scientific theory is a rigorously tested hypothesis that explains a phenomenon.

In effect, "evolution" is both a theory and a fact. We observe the factual aspect of evolution through Microevolution. However our explanation for why this happens, and our explanation for the generation of new species from old ones, remains a well-founded theory that has not yet been observed to be fact.

What information can be gathered from a lie?

However, if holocaust denial is as profoundly and manifestly flawed as it is held to be (which, in any case, it is), its publication only further reduces the position of Neo-Nazism?

Calm down dear, it's only a 12 year old hit and troll run trying to piss us all off. And you're rising to it.

This is very offensive to twelve year olds.

In the same way that a tomato is blue.

I was being sarcastic. When we're being sarcastic, we don't need others to help point this out. I know sarcasm is hard to convey over the internet, but it seemed fairly obvious in this case.

Fuck off and go play with your Hitler doll.

I had to check, and sure enough......
http://www.pzg.biz/figure_hitler.htm

This is very offensive to twelve year olds.
I stand corrected.

I was being sarcastic. When we're being sarcastic, we don't need others to help point this out. I know sarcasm is hard to convey over the internet, but it seemed fairly obvious in this case.

And I am exhausted, I had an hour sleep last night after a 12 hour bender. I'm not...up to scratch, and looking for cheap posts because I am that bored. I know you were being sarcastic, I just thought I'd add to it.

I had to check, and sure enough......
http://www.pzg.biz/figure_hitler.htm

I know what I want after I get my Darwin and Jesus action figures. :)

how can someone do "what the crap?"?

Magic.

I know what I want after I get my Darwin and Jesus action figures. :)

You mean like this one? (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/jesus.php)

However, if holocaust denial is as profoundly and manifestly flawed as it is held to be (which, in any case, it is), its publication only further reduces the position of Neo-Nazism?

Then why not start with one item of contention and have it proved or disproved. I am pretty sure it is not illegal to say, "Hey, people were not made into candles during the holocaust." and have that one item argued over. That way facts are being dealt with and not broad general denials.

Then why not start with one item of contention and have it proved or disproved. I am pretty sure it is not illegal to say, "Hey, people were not made into candles during the holocaust." and have that one item argued over. That way facts are being dealt with and not broad general denials.

Surely, however, in a discussion of history, factual basis is requisite to any conclusion, and thus generalisations should not be present?

What information can be gathered from a lie?

Reasoned argument, the lesson not to believe everything someone says. At the end of the day I'm just generally uncomfortable with the idea of criminalising thought and opinion, I see them as rights that shouldn't be curtailed. Heck, what if I argued that the Bible depicts genocide committed on the people of Egypt via the plagues, and hence that preachers were glorifying genocide and should be banned.

For me at least, everyone is entitled to hold and state any opinion they like.

Surely, however, in a discussion of history, factual basis is requisite to any conclusion, and thus generalisations should not be present?

One of those generalizations happens to be against the law but I don't see any reason to deny anybody the right to try to build a factual basis (no matter how ridiculous their intentions are), so I don't see how this law hurts anybody intellectually.

And I am exhausted, I had an hour sleep last night after a 12 hour bender.

Poor Arinola. :fluffle:


What's a Bender?

You mean like this one? (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/jesus.php)

I have a Sigmund Freud bobblehead:

http://static.zoovy.com/img/moodswingsonthenet/W150-H150-Bffffff/freudnodder.jpg

One of those generalizations happens to be against the law but I don't see any reason to deny anybody the right to try to build a factual basis (no matter how ridiculous their intentions are), so I don't see how this law hurts anybody intellectually.

To any intellectual, such a generalisation is inherently flawed, and thus the law is illogical since it legislates against that which has not the means to propound the message the government believes it does. However, we could simply censor any generalisations that are unsubstantiated couldn't we?

I have a Sigmund Freud bobblehead:

http://static.zoovy.com/img/moodswingsonthenet/W150-H150-Bffffff/freudnodder.jpg

Awesome. I got a "Leisure Suit Nietzche" doll from my Philosophy Club for Christmas

Edit: It's up on a shelf next to my Lao Tsu and Socrates plushies.

To any intellectual, such a generalisation is inherently flawed, and thus the law is illogical since it legislates against that which has not the means to propound the message the government believes it does. However, we could simply censor any generalisations that are unsubstantiated couldn't we?

We could. But as far as I can see this is the only one and has every chance of being the only one in the future. Though, I'd also agree with making it illegal to deny the Armerian holocaust in general.

Awesome. I got a "Leisure Suit Nietzche" doll from my Philosophy Club for Christmas

"Polyester is dead"

We could. But as far as I can see this is the only one and has every chance of being the only one in the future. Though, I'd also agree with making it illegal to deny the Armerian holocaust in general.

But its simply wrong. Holocaust denial could only dupe a half-brained ameoba, given the leaps of logic it employs, and thus, whilst any suppression of free speech is wrong, this is more so.

Holocaust deniers belong in the Corner of Mockery alongside Young-Earth Creationists, Evolution Deniers, and Global Warming Skeptics.

Who says Christians can't be evolutionists too?

Holocaust deniers are either neo-nazis, muslim extremists, or any other form of moron. I wonder why these camps with poisonous gas and tons upon tons of human hair (not mentioning millions of witnesses, but of course they're ALL liars) dead corpses and other evidences.

But its simply wrong. Holocaust denial could only dupe a half-brained ameoba, given the leaps of logic it employs, and thus, whilst any suppression of free speech is wrong, this is more so.

We're surrounded by half-brained amoeba...


These are just certain events that most people agree should not be taken lightly. Individual items of contention are not outlawed and if enough evidence is built up which shows the law should be removed, I'd be the first to line up for the protest.

I had to check, and sure enough......
http://www.pzg.biz/figure_hitler.htm

Lolz.

You are a pinnacle of reasoned argument.

I never said I was the god of debaters. Besides, it's a school day.

Calm down dear, it's only a 12 year old hit and troll run trying to piss us all off. And you're rising to it.

Well, nobody's perfect. Besides, I'm only 13 myself. I was doing what I used to do all the time when I was a newblet. But, it was stupid of me. I just wanted to say something, and this isn't one of my best days. I hate Mondays.

We're surrounded by half-brained amoeba...


These are just certain events that most people agree should not be taken lightly. Individual items of contention are not outlawed and if enough evidence is built up which shows the law should be removed, I'd be the first to line up for the protest.

The holocaust is not the only horrific event in human history, far from it. Is any subject "too high" for debate. Should the WTC bombings be held above discussion. Why do you wish to tell people what they're allowed to think.

We're surrounded by half-brained amoeba...


These are just certain events that most people agree should not be taken lightly. Individual items of contention are not outlawed and if enough evidence is built up which shows the law should be removed, I'd be the first to line up for the protest.

Why?

The spirit of enquiry, however perversely it manifests itself, should be welcomed, and the met with an equally earnest analysis.

Who says Christians can't be evolutionists too?

...no one on this thread?

Why?

The spirit of enquiry, however perversely it manifests itself, should be welcomed, and the met with an equally earnest analysis.

I'd agree with you in almost any other situation. But the spirit of this particular law and the reasons for its existance simply outweigh that for me. I do see your side of it and it is going to make me think deeply about it.

I'd agree with you in almost any other situation. But the spirit of this particular law and the reasons for its existance simply outweigh that for me. I do see your side of it and it is going to make me think deeply about it.

It just seems wrong.

The Nazi state is pillored for supressing intellectual works, and imposing censorship when it suited, and yet the German state does the same.

But its simply wrong. Holocaust denial could only dupe a half-brained ameoba, given the leaps of logic it employs, and thus, whilst any suppression of free speech is wrong, this is more so.

Y'know, by giving the ameoba half a brain, you've made it both much smarter then your average ameoba and not an ameoba anymore.

I know I'm annoying. Deal with it. :p

And I think that if the Holocaust is an easily verifiable fact, then laws do not need to be passed to make denying it a crime. Laws on speech are there to protect lies, not truth.

And don't flame me, because I reject all the Holocaust-denial bullshit. The Armenian genocide happened as well. But I should be within my rights to say that they didn't happen, no matter how wrong I might be.

Holocaust laws were put into place in part to make sure that there wasn't going to be another "Stab in the Back" myth/mentality which went on in Germany during the Interwar years following the First World War. (The Stab in the back myth comes from sentiment among the German people that they were never defeated following World War 1, and that they were Stabbed in the Back by the Weimarer Republik).

This was part of the package that Germany be forced to accept that they were defeated on the field of battle and accept responsability for the war.

LMFAO

Yeah, because global warming is fact. Puh-lease. Global warming is a very believable theory, the holocaust is pretty much universally accepted as a historical fact.

Comparing holocaust deniers to global warming sceptics is quite pitiful, same with evolution deniers actually. I am as atheist as you come but I know evolution is a theory, and not fact. I believe in evolution, it does not make it as factual or conclusive as the occurrence of the holocaust.

You seem to not understand what a theory is. A theory explains how something happens. The thing itself is a fact, a verifiable observation. We know evolution happens. We know anthropogenic warming is happening. How it happens is the theory bit. Global warming and evolution are every bit as much of a fact as the Holocaust.

Holocaust laws were put into place in part to make sure that there wasn't going to be another "Stab in the Back" myth/mentality which went on in Germany during the Interwar years following the First World War...
I wanted to write exactly the same argument a few minutes ago. Then I checked...

Paragraph 130 about "Public Agitation" was put in place in 1960. Section 3, punishing the denial of Nazi crimes...1994.

Who says Christians can't be evolutionists too?Did I say they couldn't be?

Okay, people, let's calm down.

Right then. We know the Holocaust is a fact. That much is obvious to anyone who studies history, and anyone denies it must be stupid, right? What I wonder is why people are so pro-censorship on this issue? Yeah, sure, they're being dumbfuck stupid about it and offending a lot of people by doing so, but so what? It's called free speech, ladies, gentlemen, and gender queers. They have a right to say stupid things if they like. Free speech, once again, is not about protecting what you want to hear. It's about protecting what you don't want to hear. That is why I am fully against laws making Holocaust-denying a crime. It's a ridiculously abridgement of free speech.

Okay, people, let's calm down.

-snip-

Damn, I was this close to laying down another Word of Power in this thread, and you got to it before I did. Nice job.

PROTIP: If you ever see me post something that begins with "Alright, Word of Power time" it means the thread has become dangerously inane.

Okay, people, let's calm down.

Right then. We know the Holocaust is a fact. That much is obvious to anyone who studies history, and anyone denies it must be stupid, right? What I wonder is why people are so pro-censorship on this issue? Yeah, sure, they're being dumbfuck stupid about it and offending a lot of people by doing so, but so what? It's called free speech, ladies, gentlemen, and gender queers. They have a right to say stupid things if they like. Free speech, once again, is not about protecting what you want to hear. It's about protecting what you don't want to hear. That is why I am fully against laws making Holocaust-denying a crime. It's a ridiculously abridgement of free speech.

I haven't chimed in on this aspect of it because I wanted to focus first and foremost on the stupidity of the argument in the first place. I agree with you--I think laws that make holocaust denial are a bad idea because they inadvertently lend credence to the deniers--they're able to use the "what are they trying to hide" argument, which is a stupid argument, but frighteningly effective all the same. So I think they're a bad idea and I don't recommend censorship.

By the same token, I'm not German or Austrian and I don't have that recent history hanging over my head, so I'm hesitant to tell the Austrians and Germans and whoever else has those laws that they ought not have them. If the people of those cultures say it's important enough to them to keep denial as a crime, I'm not going to pressure them to change. I'll just disagree from a distance.

Macroevolution, evolution from one species into a brand new one, is still a theory, and in many ways is an extrapolation from microevolution. There is strong, well-supported evidence for this, but it isn't scientific fact until we can observe the creation of a new, unique species from a previous one.


Except we have observed 'macro-Evolution' but what you're more specifically talking about is the observation of speciation (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB910.html):


Claim CB910:
No new species have been observed.

Response:

1. New species have arisen in historical times. For example:

* A new species of mosquito, the molestus form isolated in London's Underground, has speciated from Culex pipiens (Byrne and Nichols 1999; Nuttall 1998).

* Helacyton gartleri is the HeLa cell culture, which evolved from a human cervical carcinoma in 1951. The culture grows indefinitely and has become widespread (Van Valen and Maiorana 1991).

A similar event appears to have happened with dogs relatively recently. Sticker's sarcoma, or canine transmissible venerial tumor, is caused by an organism genetically independent from its hosts but derived from a wolf or dog tumor (Zimmer 2006; Murgia et al. 2006).

* Several new species of plants have arisen via polyploidy (when the chromosome count multiplies by two or more) (de Wet 1971). One example is Primula kewensis (Newton and Pellew 1929).

2. Incipient speciation, where two subspecies interbreed rarely or with only little success, is common. Here are just a few examples:

* Rhagoletis pomonella, the apple maggot fly, is undergoing sympatric speciation. Its native host in North America is Hawthorn (Crataegus spp.), but in the mid-1800s, a new population formed on introduced domestic apples (Malus pumila). The two races are kept partially isolated by natural selection (Filchak et al. 2000).
* The mosquito Anopheles gambiae shows incipient speciation between its populations in northwestern and southeastern Africa (Fanello et al. 2003; Lehmann et al. 2003).
* Silverside fish show incipient speciation between marine and estuarine populations (Beheregaray and Sunnucks 2001).

3. Ring species show the process of speciation in action. In ring species, the species is distributed more or less in a line, such as around the base of a mountain range. Each population is able to breed with its neighboring population, but the populations at the two ends are not able to interbreed. (In a true ring species, those two end populations are adjacent to each other, completing the ring.) Examples of ring species are

* the salamander Ensatina, with seven different subspecies on the west coast of the United States. They form a ring around California's central valley. At the south end, adjacent subspecies klauberi and eschscholtzi do not interbreed (Brown n.d.; Wake 1997).
* greenish warblers (Phylloscopus trochiloides), around the Himalayas. Their behavioral and genetic characteristics change gradually, starting from central Siberia, extending around the Himalayas, and back again, so two forms of the songbird coexist but do not interbreed in that part of their range (Irwin et al. 2001; Whitehouse 2001; Irwin et al. 2005).
* the deer mouse (Peromyces maniculatus), with over fifty subspecies in North America.
* many species of birds, including Parus major and P. minor, Halcyon chloris, Zosterops, Lalage, Pernis, the Larus argentatus group, and Phylloscopus trochiloides (Mayr 1942, 182-183).
* the American bee Hoplitis (Alcidamea) producta (Mayr 1963, 510).
* the subterranean mole rat, Spalax ehrenbergi (Nevo 1999).

4. Evidence of speciation occurs in the form of organisms that exist only in environments that did not exist a few hundreds or thousands of years ago. For example:
* In several Canadian lakes, which originated in the last 10,000 years following the last ice age, stickleback fish have diversified into separate species for shallow and deep water (Schilthuizen 2001, 146-151).
* Cichlids in Lake Malawi and Lake Victoria have diversified into hundreds of species. Parts of Lake Malawi which originated in the nineteenth century have species indigenous to those parts (Schilthuizen 2001, 166-176).
* A Mimulus species adapted for soils high in copper exists only on the tailings of a copper mine that did not exist before 1859 (Macnair 1989).

There is further evidence that speciation can be caused by infection with a symbiont. A Wolbachia bacterium infects and causes postmating reproductive isolation between the wasps Nasonia vitripennis and N. giraulti (Bordenstein and Werren 1997).

5. Some young-earth creationists claim that speciation is essential to explain Noah's ark. The ark was not roomy enough to carry and care for all species, so speciation is invoked to explain how the much fewer "kinds" aboard the ark became the diversity we see today. Also, some species have special needs that could not have been met during the flood (e.g., fish requiring fresh water). Creationists assume that they evolved from other, more tolerant organisms since the Flood. (Woodmorappe 1996)

By the same token, I'm not German or Austrian and I don't have that recent history hanging over my head, so I'm hesitant to tell the Austrians and Germans and whoever else has those laws that they ought not have them. If the people of those cultures say it's important enough to them to keep denial as a crime, I'm not going to pressure them to change. I'll just disagree from a distance.

Aye, that much is true. See, the neat thing about my whole post is, though, that it's an expression of exactly what I was defending: free speech. I was weighing in my own opinion. No need to listen to me anymore than anyone else, yah?

Vetalia: Thank you. Getting praise from both you AND The Nazz has just made my day. In the nick of time too: I'm getting ready for bed right now.

I think putting censures on crimes like this discourages open discussion, and is ultimately counter-productive. I mean, most people think the Holocaust was about 6 million Jews being killed. It's a horrible distortion of what happened that makes the creation of the State of Israel justified, when it is the most outrageous and unjustified territorial claim in human history.

I say the other 5 million victims of the Holocaust deserve reconition. Hell, something like 27 milllion Russians died; don't they count at least just as much?

I think you are an anti-semite.

I think you are a gay Zoroastrian Bulgarian socialist who believes in extraterrestrial aliens. Now I know what you believe I am, and you know what I believe about you. Of course I don't really believe that, but do you see how idiotic you sound? I'm not an anti-Semite, but I am disgusted with the level of influence Jews hold.

I don't deny the Holocaust. I am somewhat doubtful that Hitler's government was responsible for it, since there has not been one shred of Nazi documentation found concerning any planned genocide. Also, more of the other people groups, such as Russians, were killed by the Nazis. I just don't think it's fair for the Jews to have the ultimate victim status that they seem to insist upon. These laws don't stop anti-Semitism, but rather increase it. If someone like David Irwing wants to investigate the matter and report on his findings, he should be allowed to. That doesn't mean that we have to agree with him.

I'm not an anti-Semite, but I am disgusted with the level of influence Jews hold.

Believing that shows how you are anti-semitic.

I don't deny the Holocaust. I am somewhat doubtful that Hitler's government was responsible for it, since there has not been one shred of Nazi documentation found concerning any planned genocide.

You are correct. There is not one shread of it. There's a whole FUCK load of it.


Also, more of the other people groups, such as Russians, were killed by the Nazis.

Most of them soldiers. While it is true russia suffered numerious casualties, those casualties were not as a result of civilians being herded into camps and gassed.

I just don't think it's fair for the Jews to have the ultimate victim status that they seem to insist upon.

Another anti-semitic comment. Most people who believe that jews in general pull the "ultimat victim status" are people who want to justify hatred of jews and like to envision them as wandering around whining about their fate. Most jews...just be.


These laws don't stop anti-Semitism, but rather increase it.

It is absolutely fucking nonsensical to believe that laws against holocaust denial has to do with jewish influence, considering many of the nations that have these laws have very small jewish populations, as a result of KILLING all their jews in..you guessed it, the holocaust. In fact, the two nations with the LARGEST populations of Jews, Israel and America, it is perfectly legal.

If someone like David Irwing wants to investigate the matter and report on his findings, he should be allowed to. That doesn't mean that we have to agree with him.

Oh but you DO agree with him, don't you?

I think you are a gay Zoroastrian Bulgarian socialist who believes in extraterrestrial aliens. Now I know what you believe I am, and you know what I believe about you. Of course I don't really believe that, but do you see how idiotic you sound? I'm not an anti-Semite, but I am disgusted with the level of influence Jews hold.

I think my belief about you is far more accurate than yours (about me or about yourself). Blaming "Jews" for their "disgusting" "level of influence" sounds awfully anti-semitic to me.

I don't deny the Holocaust. I am somewhat doubtful that Hitler's government was responsible for it, since there has not been one shred of Nazi documentation found concerning any planned genocide.

Nonsense.

Also, more of the other people groups, such as Russians, were killed by the Nazis.

During the course of the war yes. But Germany was executing Jews, not killing them in battlefields. The Russians killed not only many Germans in war but they also executed many of their own thanks to Stalin. All of this is ultimately irrelevant to your anti-semitism.

If someone like David Irwing wants to investigate the matter and report on his findings, he should be allowed to. That doesn't mean that we have to agree with him.

David Irwing is a self-made martyr who knew that what he was doing in Austria would be illegal but did it anyway. Not surprisingly he got a lot of media attention by it too, which helped sell his books. Which you no doubt lick.

Come on, we all know that Hitler actually sent the Jews back into space, where they came from. Its too bad he didn't get all of them on that space ship. :(

Unless you're talking about that subset of creationists who claim that the theory of evolution is what made Hitler into a mass-murderer.

Heil Darwin!

Come on, we all know that Hitler actually sent the Jews back into space, where they came from. Its too bad he didn't get all of them on that space ship.Leonard Nimoy once said, he considered Vulcans the Jews of Space. Scary, isn't it?

I think you are a gay Zoroastrian Bulgarian socialist who believes in extraterrestrial aliens. Now I know what you believe I am, and you know what I believe about you. Of course I don't really believe that, but do you see how idiotic you sound? I'm not an anti-Semite, but I am disgusted with the level of influence Jews hold.

I don't deny the Holocaust. I am somewhat doubtful that Hitler's government was responsible for it, since there has not been one shred of Nazi documentation found concerning any planned genocide. Also, more of the other people groups, such as Russians, were killed by the Nazis. I just don't think it's fair for the Jews to have the ultimate victim status that they seem to insist upon. These laws don't stop anti-Semitism, but rather increase it. If someone like David Irwing wants to investigate the matter and report on his findings, he should be allowed to. That doesn't mean that we have to agree with him.

...

Right...and what the hell was the Wansee Conference? Did all the senior officers present there just go to Wansee to sip Schnapps and walk around in Lederhosen for a few weeks?

I don't understand why denying the Holocaust is illegal in so many European countries. These laws only increase anti-Semitism. Apparently these Jews enjoy their victim status, so they are afraid that facts may ruin it. If the Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, then what does anyone have to fear from a complete investigation?The holocaust could probably vie for the single most well documented, well evidenced, and well researched event in history. There are people alive now that remember and experienced it. I really do not understand what "opinions," "further findings" or "investigations" could possibly be credible at this point if they differ from the massively supported current understanding. Now if it was only that, who cares? let the outlandish nutters make fools of themselves. But it is not just that: as we have seen from our deplorably transparent OP, the sentiments of fair play and academic honesty that are often waved about by holocoust denier apologists are also accompanied by disdain for "these Jews" and their tradgedy. Really despicable stuff.

I don't understand why denying the Holocaust is illegal in so many European countries. These laws only increase anti-Semitism. Apparently these Jews enjoy their victim status, so they are afraid that facts may ruin it. If the Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, then what does anyone have to fear from a complete investigation?

Pretty easy. The Holocaust has legally been delt with, the offenders were brought to justice (for the most part) and the victims are being recognised as such.
Most countries regard it as slander to accuse a victim of "faking" or whatever you'd like to call it, especially when it comes to violent crimes such as occured during the Holocaust. So, as denying the Holocaust would constitute slander and libel against well over 6 million people, it's a pretty clearly defined offence.

I don't understand why denying the Holocaust is illegal in so many European countries. These laws only increase anti-Semitism. Apparently these Jews enjoy their victim status, so they are afraid that facts may ruin it. If the Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, then what does anyone have to fear from a complete investigation?What complete investigation? We are already past that. The investigation has already been performed. This Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, there is no need for someone else to try to re-check. Minor details could be argued over but the overall picture is already set and fixed. Denying this holocaust is pointless, even though the reasons, purposes, and impacts could be matters for debate.

You are correct. There is not one shread of it. There's a whole FUCK load of it.
Oh but you DO agree with him, don't you?

Like what?

Like what?

Documentation of deaths. The Nazis were excellent bookkeepers.

Are you assuming that all Russians killed were soldiers, and all Jews killed were civilians, because that is very inaccurate. I was trying to say that Jews weren't the only inmantes in concentration camps.

No shit they weren't the only inmates. They were the majority, however.

During the course of the war yes. But Germany was executing Jews, not killing them in battlefields. The Russians killed not only many Germans in war but they also executed many of their own thanks to Stalin. All of this is ultimately irrelevant to your anti-semitism.


Are you assuming that all Russians killed were soldiers, and all Jews killed were civilians, because that is very inaccurate. I was trying to say that Jews weren't the only inmantes in concentration camps.

...

Right...and what the hell was the Wansee Conference? Did all the senior officers present there just go to Wansee to sip Schnapps and walk around in Lederhosen for a few weeks?

The record of the Wansee conference was proven to be a forgery, obviously done by someone illiterate in German.

Nations without these laws seem to have fewer problems with anti-Semitism than those that do.

Nations without many problems with anti-Semitism don't need those laws.

Documentation of deaths. The Nazis were excellent bookkeepers.

Most everyone's death is documented anywhere in the world. I was asking about any documentation in which Hitler, Himmler, or a top Nazi official ordered a genocide.

Most everyone's death is documented anywhere in the world. I was asking about any documentation in which Hitler, Himmler, or a top Nazi official ordered a genocide.Wannsee Conference. :rolleyes: just google for it.

The 'Holocaust' covers more than just the Jews, in fact, it covers the Roma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Romanies_.28Gypsies.29), homosexuals, political dissenters, intellectuals, mentally 'feeble'/unfit people, physically disabled, but yet, they are not covered by the same 'Holocaust' label that the Jews are despite that these people suffered equally.

# 1.8 – 1.9 million Christian Poles and other (non-Jewish) Poles (estimate includes civilians killed as a result of Nazi aggression and occupation but does not include the military casualties of Nazi aggression or the victims of the Soviet occupation of eastern Poland and of deportations to Central Asia and Siberia)[35]
# 200,000–800,000 Roma & Sinti (Gypsies)
# 200,000–300,000 people with disabilities
# 100,000 communists
# 10,000–25,000 homosexual men (kept the Lesbian women to fulfil those fantasies ;))
# 2,500–5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses[36]

So, why is it when people speak of the 'Holocaust', no one mentions anyone BUT the Jews, despite that the Jews weren't the only group with heavy loses. Especially when it's Christians...

While I personally think that Holocaust Deniers are comprised of either total idiots, anti semites, or a combination of the two, they should have the right to spout their nonsense. Laws preventing them from doing are as bad as any other Government censorship of Free Speech. People should have the right to be idiots.

The 'Holocaust' covers more than just the Jews, in fact, it covers the Roma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Romanies_.28Gypsies.29), homosexuals, political dissenters, intellectuals, mentally 'feeble'/unfit people, physically disabled, but yet, they are not covered by the same 'Holocaust' label that the Jews are despite that these people suffered equally.

# 1.8 – 1.9 million Christian Poles and other (non-Jewish) Poles (estimate includes civilians killed as a result of Nazi aggression and occupation but does not include the military casualties of Nazi aggression or the victims of the Soviet occupation of eastern Poland and of deportations to Central Asia and Siberia)[35]
# 200,000–800,000 Roma & Sinti (Gypsies)
# 200,000–300,000 people with disabilities
# 100,000 communists
# 10,000–25,000 homosexual men (kept the Lesbian women to fulfil those fantasies ;))
# 2,500–5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses[36]

So, why is it when people speak of the 'Holocaust', no one mentions anyone BUT the Jews, despite that the Jews weren't the only group with heavy loses. Especially when it's Christians...Well, jews don't want to share their role as victims with others, they only coined the word holocaust, and more recently shoa, to mean the attempted annihilation of jews. you know, public attention always falls on the loudest....

The 'Holocaust' covers more than just the Jews, in fact, it covers the Roma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Romanies_.28Gypsies.29), homosexuals, political dissenters, intellectuals, mentally 'feeble'/unfit people, physically disabled, but yet, they are not covered by the same 'Holocaust' label that the Jews are despite that these people suffered equally.

# 1.8 – 1.9 million Christian Poles and other (non-Jewish) Poles (estimate includes civilians killed as a result of Nazi aggression and occupation but does not include the military casualties of Nazi aggression or the victims of the Soviet occupation of eastern Poland and of deportations to Central Asia and Siberia)[35]
# 200,000–800,000 Roma & Sinti (Gypsies)
# 200,000–300,000 people with disabilities
# 100,000 communists
# 10,000–25,000 homosexual men (kept the Lesbian women to fulfil those fantasies ;))
# 2,500–5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses[36]

So, why is it when people speak of the 'Holocaust', no one mentions anyone BUT the Jews, despite that the Jews weren't the only group with heavy loses. Especially when it's Christians...

Those numbers leave two million unaccounted for. And that list never mentions the Slavs.

While I personally think that Holocaust Deniers are comprised of either total idiots, anti semites, or a combination of the two, they should have the right to spout their nonsense. Laws preventing them from doing are as bad as any other Government censorship of Free Speech. People should have the right to be idiots.But not to intentionally lie.

Well, jews don't want to share their role as victims with others, they only coined the word holocaust, and more recently shoa, to mean the attempted annihilation of jews. you know, public attention always falls on the loudest.... True.

I was irritated in school assembly when we were solemnly told not to forget the victims of the holocaust… of which only the Jews were then mentioned! Irony, irony. :(

But not to intentionally lie.


Why not? Now lying should be a crime punishable by the Government too? Unless you are talking about formal perjury under oath you scare me.

Those numbers leave two million unaccounted for. And that list never mentions the Slavs.

Those numbers fall into the category of 'systematic' genocide, as oppose to the unplanned genocide of the other groups, including Soviet POWs and Slavs.

Those numbers fall into the category of 'systematic' genocide, as oppose to the unplanned genocide of the other groups, including Soviet POWs and Slavs. The genocide of Slavs was planned, it just wasn't industrialised.

Off topic but related, you also don't hear much about the many millions that Stalin butchered. I'm not sure why he gets a pass. He was nearly as bad as Hitler and the Nazis.

The fact remains that regulating nutjobs isn't the job of the Government. As someone else stated this just gives them a slight air of legitimacy. Sane people know their ideas are bunk. It's not the place of Government to keep people from being nutjobs.

True.

I was irritated in school assembly when we were solemnly told not to forget the victims of the holocaust… of which only the Jews were then mentioned! Irony, irony. :(

If that happened at my school, I would stand up and yell that saying jews were the only people who died is BS. Arrkendommer, if you read this, you can hold me to this.

If that happened at my school, I would stand up and yell that saying jews were the only people who died is BS. Arrkendommer, if you read this, you can hold me to this.

I agree with you. There were so many more groups than the Jews killed in the Holocaust. Luckily, I have a feeling my school is much more mature than that, and would mention at least most groups involved.

But the fact remains, of all the millions of people that died in WWII, most of whom were civilians in genocidal campaigns, out of those 60 million only the 7 million Jews are given an exorbinant amount of attention, and the others forgotten, why is that? Of course it is inextricably linked to the establishment of Israel and the subjugation and inhumane and outrageous Gurion ideology against the Arabs. The world for some strange reason sees some need to make up for what happened to the Jews as a tiny minority of those killed in WWII, for sympathy or whatnot.

Unfortunately these sympathies have passed to racist ultranationalist Jews who least of all deserve it, and whose ideologies mostly fit with Nazism. The saddest fact of all of this is forgetting all those Slavs, Roma etc who died at the hands of Hitler, but also that seemingly the sympathy and respect for all the atrosities of WWII, the racist Zionists have claimed it all in order to somehow justify their occupation of Palestine.

No one hears about Chinese and SE Asian atrosities by the Japanese or anything about that, it has all been claimed by the Zionists, for evidence, ask any average person who Hitler killed. The 'Holocaust' denying laws, which are anti-democratic, are further evidence of this. I think furthermore that holocaust denying should be taken into context, no one in their right mind would deny the atrosities of the Nazism, but somehow despite them being a minority in the overall deaths, the Jews are the only people associated in the mainstream with WWII civilian murder.

I think the point to be made is that the holocaust is a historical event, and as a historical event should never have such taboo notions surrounding it. I think also as a historical event that it should never be used, as it is today, to justify the same offences that the Zionists are committing against the Palestinians and the neighbours. It is this same ultranationalist racist that Hitler used against the Jews, and now the Zionists are doing what was done to them.

Why not? Now lying should be a crime punishable by the Government too? Unless you are talking about formal perjury under oath you scare me.Depends on the situation. If you're committing libel, slander, you're inciting racial hatred, you're involved in a scam, or you're under oath to speak the truth, yeah, lying should be illegal.

But the fact remains, of all the millions of people that died in WWII, most of whom were civilians in genocidal campaigns, out of those 60 million only the 7 million Jews are given an exorbinant amount of attention, and the others forgotten, why is that?I find it rather interesting that in countries where the holocaust happened and where holocaust denial is illegal, the other victims of the holocaust are not routinely forgotten.

I agree with you. There were so many more groups than the Jews killed in the Holocaust. Luckily, I have a feeling my school is much more mature than that, and would mention at least most groups involved.

Although if Arrkendommer reads it, I'll probably get suspended. But hey, it'll be the first time I've been suspended for doing the right thing.

But not to intentionally lie.
i was under the impression that holocaust denial falls under incitement of racism in most places. it's not strictly lying.

But the fact remains, of all the millions of people that died in WWII, most of whom were civilians in genocidal campaigns, out of those 60 million only the 7 million Jews are given an exorbinant amount of attention, and the others forgotten, why is that?


Where have you been? The people who died in WWII get plenty of attention. It's the Holocaust that's being talked about, and the reason that the most attention is given to the Jews who died is because the majority of the people who died in the Holocaust were Jewish. (6 million out of 11 million)

Oh, and for the record, the death toll for WWII was around 52 million, not 60 million.

i was under the impression that holocaust denial falls under incitement of racism in most places. it's not strictly lying.

It falls under slander and libel. It claims that the people who testified about the Holocaust were lying under oath. At least, that's the justification I've heard.

the majority of the people who died in the Holocaust were Jewish. maybe... maybe not.

maybe... maybe not.Got anything that indicates things otherwise? Such as protocols of a Wannsee Conference for other ethnic groups?

i was under the impression that holocaust denial falls under incitement of racism in most places. it's not strictly lying. It can't be incitement though, because it's denying something happened rather than telling people to do something. Granted the people who do deny the holocaust tend to be either Muslims or neo-nazis, but that is no reason to confuse the two laws.

It falls under slander and libel. It claims that the people who testified about the Holocaust were lying under oath. At least, that's the justification I've heard. That kind of lawyeristic bullshit could be wheeled out for almost any situation in history where oaths have been involved.

I'm sure the holocaust did happen; if we as a society believe it to be true, we should have no trouble dealing with opposing viewpoints without resorting to "don't mention ze war!" tactics.

It falls under slander and libel. It claims that the people who testified about the Holocaust were lying under oath. At least, that's the justification I've heard.

So the murder of millions of WWII civilians is questionable, but the murder of 7 million Jews is not? I think all historical information should always be challenged and debated, it's a shame such a taboo has been put over a minority number of those murdered in WWII.

So the murder of millions of WWII civilians is questionable, but the murder of 7 million Jews is not? I think all historical information should always be challenged and debated, it's a shame such a taboo has been put over a minority number of those murdered in WWII.11 million victims. No one's bothered denying that world war 2 happened, though some have tried to claim that their ancestors weren't involved.

So the murder of millions of WWII civilians is questionable, but the murder of 7 million Jews is not? I think all historical information should always be challenged and debated, it's a shame such a taboo has been put over a minority number of those murdered in WWII.

What the fuck are you talking about? Does anyone deny that 52 million people died in WWII?

6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. maybe.. m-a-y-b-e--- n-o-t

maybe... maybe not.

6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. 11 million people total died in the Holocaust. This is 1st grade math, people.

What the fuck are you talking about? Does anyone deny that 52 million people died in WWII?

All historical events should be open to challenge and debate, that is the true nature of pluralism, and helps us establish a realistic view of our past. History has many times been overexaggerated, used for propaganda, understated, and six decades is a long time to establish anything in such a chaotic time. I am not saying it didn't happen, but if we are truely a free society we shouldn't be afraid to challenge that maybe it didn't. Not that I believe it didn't, just making a point.

Your statement before Occam's razor:
maybe.. m-a-y-b-e--- n-o-t
After:
[VOID]
Unless you can provide some concrete evidence supporting the assumption that all evidence gathered so far is false and that there is a large, yet undocumented conspiracy trying to push the numbers to their current level from lower numbers, shut up. :)

All historical events should be open to challenge and debate, that is the true nature of pluralism, and helps us establish a realistic view of our past. History has many times been overexaggerated, used for propaganda, understated, and six decades is a long time to establish anything in such a chaotic time. I am not saying it didn't happen, but if we are truely a free society we shouldn't be afraid to challenge that maybe it didn't. Not that I believe it didn't, just making a point.

Are you familiar with the concept of answering questions?

All historical events should be open to challenge and debate, that is the true nature of pluralism, and helps us establish a realistic view of our past. History has many times been overexaggerated, used for propaganda, understated, and six decades is a long time to establish anything in such a chaotic time. I am not saying it didn't happen, but if we are truely a free society we shouldn't be afraid to challenge that maybe it didn't. Not that I believe it didn't, just making a point.Actually, WWII isn't "history" (Geschichte) yet, it's "current history" (Zeitgeschichte), so it hardly needs to be challenged. You can just go and ask the people that witnessed it.

maybe.. m-a-y-b-e--- n-o-t

There's this neat thing called addition. You can use it to add up all the people whose deaths were documented.

Your statement before Occam's razor:

After:

Unless you can provide some concrete evidence supporting the assumption that all evidence gathered so far is false and that there is a large, yet undocumented conspiracy trying to push the numbers to their current level from lower numbers, shut up. :)

Well the fact that their could be should be accepted, historical data is far from infallible.

Actually, WWII isn't "history" (Geschichte) yet, it's "current history" (Zeitgeschichte), so it hardly needs to be challenged. You can just go and ask the people that witnessed it. It is hard for even the most active mercenary to view a whole war. Books and analyses are still necessary.

Well the fact that their could be should be accepted, historical data is far from infallible.However, that on its own is not a sound argument for challenging their validity.

It is hard for even the most active mercenary to view a whole war. Books and analyses are still necessary.That's why you ask different people. Thing is, the first hand sources are still here.

Holocaust deniers belong in the Corner of Mockery alongside Young-Earth Creationists, Evolution Deniers, and Global Warming Skeptics.
Heretics that the Inquisitors of the Church of Liberalism must burn at the stake! :eek:

However, that on its own is not a sound argument for challenging their validity.

What is the saying again, history is written by the winners?

I mean honestly, why is it that of the tens of millions of those civilians killed in genocide, discounting combat casualties, why is it that we only associated Jews with the holocaust and with Nazi murder in general? Why is it that they got a country and infinite sympathy and support for the deaths of those they probably didn't even know?

Historians all have political viewpoints, and WWII was certainly not free of politics.

What is the saying again, history is written by the winners?If that was the case, there would be no holocaust denial in the first place.

I mean honestly, why is it that of the tens of millions of those civilians killed in genocide, discounting combat casualties, why is it that we only associated Jews with the holocaust and with Nazi murder in general? The easiest way to solve that problem is to make holocaust denial illegal. Maybe that'll solve the problem.
Why is it that they got a country and infinite sympathy and support for the deaths of those they probably didn't even know?They got a country because they managed to hold on to it and they don't get infinite support.

Jews aren't the only ones associated with the Holocaust, and if you think so, you've been living under a rock. Go to a damn Holocaust museum sometime, or read a book on it.

I know that they aren't, and so do you, and so do many others, I am refering to the mainstream view.

What is the saying again, history is written by the winners?

I mean honestly, why is it that of the tens of millions of those civilians killed in genocide, discounting combat casualties, why is it that we only associated Jews with the holocaust and with Nazi murder in general? Why is it that they got a country and infinite sympathy and support for the deaths of those they probably didn't even know?

Historians all have political viewpoints, and WWII was certainly not free of politics.

Jews aren't the only ones associated with the Holocaust, and if you think so, you've been living under a rock. Go to a damn Holocaust museum sometime, or read a book on it.

"Holocaust deniers belong in the Corner of Mockery alongside Young-Earth Creationists, Evolution Deniers, and Global Warming Skeptics."

I am going to put this simply and in relaxed terms, undue to someone who equates denying the holocaust and being a global warming skeptic.

Historians work on evaluating the past using evidence including testmonies, archeological evidence, and written documents. They do not always agree and we have grown to accept that fact. For example, while it is valid to question the accuracy of the number of people killed (historians have said anywhere between 3-7mil Jews). Deniers, however, take that lack of total agreement between historians and claim that throws a serious doubt as to whether anyone was actually killed, which is intellectually dishonest, to say the least.

Similar logic can be applied regarding Global Warming. As I understand it, all scientists agree that the world is warmer today than a hundred years ago. Also, many point out that we are putting out such large amounts of CO2 and therefore MAY (not must) be causing an amount of the warming. However, there is scientific dispute of the evidence just as there is historical disagreements regarding some aspects of the Holocaust. For example, there is no doubt scientifically that the earth has been warmer than it is currently. Additionally, there is evidence that the temperature of the other planets is rising as well, and there is no increase in CO2 there.

Niether history nor science is ever 100% accurate and known to be true forever. Time has shown us that the world isn't flat and that there is no such thing as spontaneous generation. Time may show us as well that only (even 1 innocent death is too much) 4mil Jews were ethnically cleansed. Maybe we'll learn that it wasn't Hilter's idea rather Goebbel's or Goring (may all their names be blotted out). Anyone who goes hysteric about questions being raised on the veracity of either the Holocaust or Global Warming is a closed-minded immature thinker.

Similar logic can be applied regarding Global Warming. As I understand it, all scientists agree that the world is warmer today than a hundred years ago. Also, many point out that we are putting out such large amounts of CO2 and therefore MAY (not must) be causing an amount of the warming. However, there is scientific dispute of the evidence just as there is historical disagreements regarding some aspects of the Holocaust.
Off topic, but this is so unbelievably wrong that it isn't even funny.

Anyone who goes hysteric about questions being raised on the veracity of either the Holocaust or Global Warming is a closed-minded immature thinker.Giving someone that would willingly ignore testimonies, documents, historical sites, and other documentation in order to make themselves feel better, the ridicule they deserve is not immature.

I know that they aren't, and so do you, and so do many others, I am refering to the mainstream view.Mainstream view where?

I know that they aren't, and so do you, and so do many others, I am refering to the mainstream view.

Mainstream where? Sure as hell isn't anywhere near where I am.

Mainstream where? Sure as hell isn't anywhere near where I am.

Ask some random guy on the street who Hitler killed, come back and tell me what he said.

whats the difference between young earth creationists and evolution deniers?

I don't know -- what?

Oh...sorry. I thought that was the set-up for a joke. I was waiting for the punchline.

That's why you ask different people. Thing is, the first hand sources are still here.
That's why I quite like the Guido Knopp documentaries. Lots of people who actually saw the stuff, and they're the focus.

Anyone can go through a few old archives, and we'll still be able to do that a century from now. But talking to those people is something that will soon be impossible, so it's nice that someone made the effort to preserve their testimony for the future.

One person a useful sample does not make.

Well ask more than one person.

Ask some random guy on the street who Hitler killed, come back and tell me what he said.

One person a useful sample does not make.

One person a useful sample does not make.

How about 3 people? ;)

That's why I quite like the Guido Knopp documentaries. Lots of people who actually saw the stuff, and they're the focus.

Anyone can go through a few old archives, and we'll still be able to do that a century from now. But talking to those people is something that will soon be impossible, so it's nice that someone made the effort to preserve their testimony for the future.I also like the Haus der Wannseekonferenz. It proves that the Nazis were at the very least guilty of planning everything. If you ignore everything but the conference's protocols.

I also like the Haus der Wannseekonferenz. It proves that the Nazis were at the very least guilty of planning everything. If you ignore everything but the conference's protocols.

Nazi collaborators in the occupied countries certainly helped.

I don't understand why denying the Holocaust is illegal in so many European countries. These laws only increase anti-Semitism. Apparently these Jews enjoy their victim status, so they are afraid that facts may ruin it. If the Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, then what does anyone have to fear from a complete investigation?

Putting the blatant jew-hatred of this comment aside, the facts are that 1) it happened, and 2) it was deliberate.

The Europeans were so devastated by World War 2 that they are afraid of anything that might show one of its main driving forces-anti semitism.

Something that you are gleefully participating in. Give yourself a nice pat on the back, bigot.

Nazi collaborators in the occupied countries certainly helped.
Indeed. I believe Stroop's report on the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto praises the helpful efforts of the Polish security forces (besides the murder and capture of somewhere around 56,000 civilians).

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/nowarsaw.html

I've met a real live holocaust denier first hand & had the unfortunate experience of suffering through a meal in a nice restaurant with him. Imagine my dismay as the conversation mutated into a diatribe, thus ruining the flavor of the baba ganoush. What alarmed me the most were the logical fallacies, eg: the holocaust did not occur, it's a Jewish conspiracy to smear the Nazis, thus they deserved mass annihilation. Go figure.

What I'm wondering is why these folks all have one eye that looks off to the right? It's very disturbing.

___________________________________________________________

Steinbeckistan: books sold by the pound.

Putting the blatant jew-hatred of this comment aside, the facts are that 1) it happened, and 2) it was deliberate.

The Europeans were so devastated by World War 2 that they are afraid of anything that might show one of its main driving forces-anti semitism.

Something that you are gleefully participating in. Give yourself a nice pat on the back, bigot.

See, your buying into the whole notion that because 7 million Jews were killed by the Nazis (A minority I remind you compared to other deaths), that the world somehow owes the Jewish community (if such a coherent group exists) some kind of sympathy and support, while those peoples who suffered far more from genocide in WWII are basically forgotten and ignored.

This has enabled the Zionists as racist ultranationalists to hijack and misuse the holocaust as a political tool for the annexation of Palestine and subjugation of it's Arab population, an objective clearly stated by Israel's founder Ben Gurion.

Where did the holocaust happen? Europe. So why do the Palestinian people have to suffer on their own soil for something that happened in Europe, did they have anything to do with the holocaust? Of course not.

The Jews have become the sympathy idol for WWII, and a propaganda tool which have been abused by those who have no links to those killed under Hitler.

Are you assuming that all Russians killed were soldiers, and all Jews killed were civilians, because that is very inaccurate.

Of course not. But the whole point of the holocaust is not that people died, it is the purposeful, industrialized, legalized way in which they were killed.

I was trying to say that Jews weren't the only inmantes in concentration camps.

So what?

I've met a real live holocaust denier first hand & had the unfortunate experience of suffering through a meal in a nice restaurant with him. Imagine my dismay as the conversation mutated into a diatribe, thus ruining the flavor of the baba ganoush. What alarmed me the most were the logical fallacies, eg: the holocaust did not occur, it's a Jewish conspiracy to smear the Nazis, thus they deserved mass annihilation. Go figure.

What I'm wondering is why these folks all have one eye that looks off to the right? It's very disturbing.

___________________________________________________________

Steinbeckistan: books sold by the pound.Despite the topic, the bolded part made me laugh. :p

I also love your name. Oh, and to make a "real" signature, just go to "User CP" on the top left of the page and then to "Edit Signature". =)

There's this neat thing called addition. You can use it to add up all the people whose deaths were documented.Obviously.. I am not taking your "addition" skills for granted.

Of course not. But the whole point of the holocaust is not that people died, it is the purposeful, industrialized, legalized way in which they were killed.



So what?

Do you think Soviet POW's were treated any better, being shot and thrown into a mass grave is somehow different? Death is death.

Do you think Soviet POW's were treated any better, being shot and thrown into a mass grave is somehow different? Death is death.

So you don't believe in memorials? I mean hey, death is death yes, just keep track of how many bodies is all that's important?

Do you think Soviet POW's were treated any better, being shot and thrown into a mass grave is somehow different? Death is death.
See, that's where I disagree. The Holocaust was industrialised, that made it different. If you shoot someone, at least you're giving them that last bit of respect, it's a person to person act. But the victims in the extermination camps weren't even afforded that - they were culled, not murdered.

See, your buying into the whole notion that because 7 million Jews were killed by the Nazis (A minority I remind you compared to other deaths), that the world somehow owes the Jewish community (if such a coherent group exists) some kind of sympathy and support, while those peoples who suffered far more from genocide in WWII are basically forgotten and ignored.

This has enabled the Zionists as racist ultranationalists to hijack and misuse the holocaust as a political tool for the annexation of Palestine and subjugation of it's Arab population, an objective clearly stated by Israel's founder Ben Gurion.

Where did the holocaust happen? Europe. So why do the Palestinian people have to suffer on their own soil for something that happened in Europe, did they have anything to do with the holocaust? Of course not.

The Jews have become the sympathy idol for WWII, and a propaganda tool which have been abused by those who have no links to those killed under Hitler.

Don't give me that nonsense. I was merely pointing out that the Holocaust is a fact. And it's just one instance of persecution of Jews in a long line, dating since the diaspora.

As for the Arabs, they have blood on their hands. Arabs were recruitied to fight for SS units in Serbia, and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (an Arab leader) met with Hitler. Ahh, those poor downtrodden, innocent Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni

Anyone can be a Zionist. The notion that it's "racist" is used by terrorist apologetics like you to smear this ideology.

Examine a map. Israel is a tiny country in a sea of sand. For the Palestinians(and their gullible apologetics in the West) to blame all their problems on Israel is sheer illusion. The Palestinians have refused to compromise at every turn to achieve some kind of peaceful state of coexistence.

Muslims were recruited from the Balkans to rebels for the Nazis, but the Palestinians had nothing to do with this.

Arabs were recruitied to fight for SS units in Serbia...
Actually, they were Muslims but not Arabs. Croatian and Bosnian Muslims, to be exact. And it turned out they weren't all that committed to the ideology either, because they rebelled later on when things weren't going too well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handschar

...and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (an Arab leader) met with Hitler.
That is true. The guy was a Nazi, he enquired about the possibility of "solving the Jewish problem" in the Middle East as well. The funny thing is that he's held in such high regard in the Arab world even today.

That is true. The guy was a Nazi, he enquired about the possibility of "solving the Jewish problem" in the Middle East as well. The funny thing is that he's held in such high regard in the Arab world even today.

On the contrary, he is regarded as a hero. Here's what Arafat had to say about him: We are not Afghanistan. We are the mighty people. Were they able to replace our hero Hajj Amin al-Husseini?... There were a number of attempts to get rid of Hajj Amin, whom they considered an ally of the Nazis. But even so, he lived in Cairo, and participated in the 1948 war, and I was one of his troops
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni
just another rotten case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".. Its like when we gave WMD to Saddam.


Examine a map. Israel is a tiny country in a sea of sand. For the Palestinians(and their gullible apologetics in the West) to blame all their problems on Israel is sheer illusion.so this is how you figure the geopolitical influence of a Country.. you look in your map.. pull your measuring-tape.. and Bingo.

In your silly world.. Greenland pwns England. :rolleyes:

See, that's where I disagree. The Holocaust was industrialised, that made it different. If you shoot someone, at least you're giving them that last bit of respect, it's a person to person act. But the victims in the extermination camps weren't even afforded that - they were culled, not murdered.
In the long run, both are dead anyway.

just another rotten case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".. Its like when we gave WMD to Saddam.

Funny, there was no state of Israel at the time so this means that Arab hatred of Jews has nothing to do with the occupation, right?

Just an FYI, Husseini was a leader who much of the Palestinians supported.

I'm not 100% sure on the following, but many have stated he was a cousin of Arafat's. Don't quote me on that one though.

In the long run, both are dead anyway.
It's both the attitude of the perpetrators and the conditions in which the crime was committed that are important though.

There's a reason the first sentence of the German constitution says that the dignity of a human being shall be inviolable. It doesn't say "no mass murders", it says dignity. Which is what the victims of the Holocaust were at no point given. As a crime that puts it above the rest by quite a margin in my opinion.

I don't understand why denying the Holocaust is illegal in so many European countries. These laws only increase anti-Semitism. Apparently these Jews enjoy their victim status, so they are afraid that facts may ruin it. If the Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, then what does anyone have to fear from a complete investigation?

You're implying that it did NOT occur; try telling that to those who survived it, or to descendants of those who did NOT survive it. If you are not anti-Semitic, you certainly are talking as if you are.

And was made in exactly 6 days + 1 day of rest. No word on the dinosaurs, though a Jehovah's Witness friend of mine once tried to convince me that Lucifer put their bones underground to mess with us.

Because of the Prince of Darkness wants nothing more than to screw over a bunch of archaeologists.

Actually it was re-made in six days, because if you read Genesis 1:1-3, you'll notice something happened to the original creation, because God did not create it the way it was in verse 2: "And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." That is, He moved upon the face of the waters to RE-create the heavens and the earth. From verse 3 on, Genesis 1 describes the RE-creation of the earth and universe, not the original creation. Also read 2 Peter 3:3-7.

I think you are an anti-semite.

I agree with you; I think he's a Jew-hater too. I don't hate the Jewish people, because God says He will CURSE all those who curse the Jews (Genesis 12:1-3; Esther 9:1).

Don't give me that nonsense. I was merely pointing out that the Holocaust is a fact. And it's just one instance of persecution of Jews in a long line, dating since the diaspora.

As for the Arabs, they have blood on their hands. Arabs were recruitied to fight for SS units in Serbia, and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (an Arab leader) met with Hitler. Ahh, those poor downtrodden, innocent Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni

Anyone can be a Zionist. The notion that it's "racist" is used by terrorist apologetics like you to smear this ideology.

Examine a map. Israel is a tiny country in a sea of sand. For the Palestinians(and their gullible apologetics in the West) to blame all their problems on Israel is sheer illusion. The Palestinians have refused to compromise at every turn to achieve some kind of peaceful state of coexistence.

I wish there were more people in the world of the same mind toward the Jews as you (and I) are; I am SO sick and tired of hearing about those $%&*#@?! Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims being "poor, downtrodden, and innocent" while they're killing Jews left and right, and the State of Israel being "illegal" and "racist" when in fact giving the Jews the land of Palestine is merely decent and humane.

Because the Jews have been persecuted, killed, tortured, enslaved, violated, and whatnot, for over eighteen centuries, in every nation, country, and kingdom whither they have fled/wandered/been driven/been chased, EXCEPT THE LAND OF PALESTINE.

To the Muslims, Arabs, and wrongly so called "Palestinians", I say this:

GIVE THE JEWS A BREAK. THEY'VE SUFFERED, WANDERING FROM PLACE TO PLACE FOR 1,878 YEARS, NEVER HAVING ANY REST, AND IT'S TIME THEY GOT SOME. GIVE THEM THE LAND OF PALESTINE (ALL OF IT, INCLUDING THE WEST BANK, GAZA STRIP, GOLAN HEIGHTS, AND ANY OTHER PART OF THEIR LAND YOU NOW OCCUPY) AND LEAVE THEM ALONE.

It's both the attitude of the perpetrators and the conditions in which the crime was committed that are important though.
If you recall the context of the quote I used, it was to show the significance of the short-run. ;) So I agree essentially.

.. I don't hate the Jewish people, because God says He will CURSE all those who curse the Jews (Genesis 12:1-3; Esther 9:1).so.. you hate everyone not "protected" by your bible?

You are pathetic.
An old book.. written by other men (your bible) dictates what race you can (or cannot) be friendly to.

so.. you hate everyone not "protected" by your bible?

You are pathetic.
An old book.. written by other men (your bible) dictates what race you can (or cannot) be friendly to.

No, I said nothing of the kind.

I never said I hate Palestinians; I just said I wish they would leave Israel alone and stop trying to exterminate them.

See, your buying into the whole notion that because 7 million Jews were killed by the Nazis (A minority I remind you compared to other deaths), that the world somehow owes the Jewish community (if such a coherent group exists) some kind of sympathy and support, while those peoples who suffered far more from genocide in WWII are basically forgotten and ignored.


Other deaths?

I am trying to understand how you compare deaths from combat with the process of rounding up people and killing them.

Which other people suffered more from genocide?


This has enabled the Zionists as racist ultranationalists to hijack and misuse the holocaust as a political tool for the annexation of Palestine and subjugation of it's Arab population, an objective clearly stated by Israel's founder Ben Gurion.


Hmm? You are right it couldn't be the fact that they were rounded up in multiple countries and killed. It wouldn't be cause Switzerland the supposed neutral country of the world seems to have handed many over to the Germans.

A little more involved then a simple plot to take Palestine.


Where did the holocaust happen? Europe. So why do the Palestinian people have to suffer on their own soil for something that happened in Europe, did they have anything to do with the holocaust? Of course not.


The history predates the war. Look at the 28 Arab revolts where Jews were attacked and or ran out of Jerusalem.

The Jews have become the sympathy idol for WWII, and a propaganda tool which have been abused by those who have no links to those killed under Hitler.

Hardly. They weren't even mentioned during the war.

Muslims were recruited from the Balkans to rebels for the Nazis, but the Palestinians had nothing to do with this.

Actually some Palestinians did respond to the Nazi call. I can't think of the fellows name but he was in the SS.

so.. you hate everyone not "protected" by your bible?

You are pathetic.
An old book.. written by other men (your bible) dictates what race you can (or cannot) be friendly to.

Actually it's how it's interpreted by the people who do the "teaching."

Kind of like the Koran.

The Muslims of the Barbary Coast in the early 1800s declared it was their Jihad to enslave all sinners as dictated by the Koran.

Shall we talk about modern "interpretations?"

I wish there were more people in the world of the same mind toward the Jews as you (and I) are; I am SO sick and tired of hearing about those $%&*#@?! Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims being "poor, downtrodden, and innocent" while they're killing Jews left and right, and the State of Israel being "illegal" and "racist" when in fact giving the Jews the land of Palestine is merely decent and humane.

Because the Jews have been persecuted, killed, tortured, enslaved, violated, and whatnot, for over eighteen centuries, in every nation, country, and kingdom whither they have fled/wandered/been driven/been chased, EXCEPT THE LAND OF PALESTINE.

To the Muslims, Arabs, and wrongly so called "Palestinians", I say this:

GIVE THE JEWS A BREAK. THEY'VE SUFFERED, WANDERING FROM PLACE TO PLACE FOR 1,878 YEARS, NEVER HAVING ANY REST, AND IT'S TIME THEY GOT SOME. GIVE THEM THE LAND OF PALESTINE (ALL OF IT, INCLUDING THE WEST BANK, GAZA STRIP, GOLAN HEIGHTS, AND ANY OTHER PART OF THEIR LAND YOU NOW OCCUPY) AND LEAVE THEM ALONE.


Perhaps we should give the Native Americans or Australians a break and give back all of North America, South America and Australia. Big shit the Jews have suffered, who hasn't? If anything there is more justification to have taken the land from Germany than just pluck it from the Middle East because a bunch of religious nuts think its their's.

Ya know I always wondered how anyone could deny the holocaust. Because it wasnt entirely about jews. Actually taken into perspective it was maybe in the top 15 of worst genocides but not #1 of history. What gets me is that 11million people died, only 6mil were Jewish and teh other 5 million are compeletly ignored. But that's not what Im trying to say. To get to the point the holocause was a historical event. Its like saying the revolutionary war never happened or the moon landing was a fake (I know there'r still sckeptics out there my bad lol). Until a little while ago where I encountered similar stupidity in my personal affairs I had convinced myself that denying the holocaust was ap purely political thing to do as it was a historical event no superstition about it.

Now I think some people are stupid enough to beleive its a Jewish conspiracy and never happened. Though I still beleive most do it for political reasons (Ahmedinejad).

It's fucking history dammit. THough IMGHO, having laws against denial is fucking retarded, possibly more so than holocause denial is to begin with as its giving in the urge to appease (fucking not again Europe :p ).

I find it rather interesting that in countries where the holocaust happened and where holocaust denial is illegal, the other victims of the holocaust are not routinely forgotten.Oh yes they are. Because only Jews are constantly vocal about "remembering". They have pushed all other groups of victims out of public attention and remembrance.

Holocaust deniers belong in the Corner of Mockery alongside Young-Earth Creationists, Evolution Deniers, and Global Warming Skeptics.

No, they're lower than that.

What gets me is that 11million people died, only 6mil were Jewish and teh other 5 million are compeletly ignored.

More like 20 million+.

I don't understand why denying the Holocaust is illegal in so many European countries. These laws only increase anti-Semitism. Apparently these Jews enjoy their victim status, so they are afraid that facts may ruin it. If the Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, then what does anyone have to fear from a complete investigation?

The facts may ruin it? The facts are what those who deny the holocaust ignore! There is no need for an investigation, there have already been many! What do you consider the Nurenburg trials? Tell me, what more proof do you need then the MILLIONS of dead!? I suppose the pictures of the skeletal deathcamp prisoners were faked weren't they? The ovens were for baking bread, not PEOPLE! I personally know three death camp survivors, and one US Army Tank commander who was at the liberation of one of the camps(though liberation is not a good word as many of the prisoners died anyway). Anyone who denies the holocaust(which is akin to saying that China does not exist simply because one has not seen it) is worse then a fool, they are enabling the hate and inhumanity that caused the holocause to continue. Remember those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. The only ppl afraid of the facts of the holocaust are those who try to make believe it did not occur!

Europe bans stupidity.

I support that.

No, the ban is not stupid. People are stupid (including a good deal of the people having answered to this thread with anti-semite bullshit or these guys who keep downplaying it). And because people are stupid, forget a lot, are easily manipulated and don't like this uncomfortable feeling of being the people that conducted the probably ugliest genocide ever, this ban has its sense.

So they aren't given the chance to twist history into how they'd like it in say fifty years, it simply ensures that the Holocaust as a fact actually stays a fact and does not become a challengable myth or something like that.

Plus, its a good way to get those retarded Nazis into jail.

More like 20 million+.
20 million? o.0 Never heard that before. Source?
Europe bans stupidity.

I support that.
I agree.

20 million? o.0 Never heard that before. Source?

I agree.

It's actually just an estimate. I've seen estimates of the total number of Holocaust victims as low* as 10 million and as high as 26 million. R.J. Rummel in Death by Government estimates 20-25 million.


*obviously not counting Holocaust deniers' estimates

Europe bans stupidity.

I support that.

If stupidity were banned, every person on the planet would be behind bars.

I don't understand why denying the Holocaust is illegal in so many European countries. These laws only increase anti-Semitism. Apparently these Jews enjoy their victim status, so they are afraid that facts may ruin it. If the Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, then what does anyone have to fear from a complete investigation?

Mainly, because nazi/fascist sympathisers have claimed often to have carried "complete, unbiased investigations" about the WW2 genocides. All these "complete, unbiased investigations" lessened or negated even well-documented massacres (even by nazi/fascist documentation), while exaggerating allied/russian/jugoslav/partisan retaliations.
Looks like historical truth needs to be protected by Hitler's and Mussolini's nostalgics. If it needs, by law. It is sad, but it works.

Oh yes they are. Because only Jews are constantly vocal about "remembering". They have pushed all other groups of victims out of public attention and remembrance.How long have you lived in Germany to gain this insight?

It's actually just an estimate. I've seen estimates of the total number of Holocaust victims as low* as 10 million and as high as 26 million. R.J. Rummel in Death by Government estimates 20-25 million.


*obviously not counting Holocaust deniers' estimates
Oh, ok. Somehow I've always been under the impression it was 6 million Jewish victims and around 2-3 million other 'undesirables'. Though Rummel always seems to give inflated estimates for the body count of every atrocity...

If stupidity were banned, every person on the planet would be behind bars.

Wouldn't it be more peaceful that way?

Iirc soviet non-combatant victims amount to 10 millions (at the very least, I've heard even greater estimates). Even if it wasn't all done in slave labor/extermination camps, it is an (attempted) genocide altogether.
Are Soviet and Eastern European victims counted in the definition of the 'Holocaust'?

Oh, ok. Somehow I've always been under the impression it was 6 million Jewish victims and around 2-3 million other 'undesirables'. Though Rummel always seems to give inflated estimates for the body count of every atrocity...

Iirc soviet non-combatant victims amount to 10 millions (at the very least, I've heard even greater estimates). Even if it wasn't all done in slave labor/extermination camps, it is an (attempted) genocide altogether.

I have done some research related to this topic, here is what I have found so far: http://zimirk.wordpress.com/2006/11/14/the-holocaust-and-the-jewish-question (http://zimirk.wordpress.com/2006/11/14/the-holocaust-and-the-jewish-question/)

As for the Arabs, they have blood on their hands. Arabs were recruitied to fight for SS units in Serbia, and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (an Arab leader) met with Hitler. Ahh, those poor downtrodden, innocent Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni

Ya know, there were Jews who joined the SS.




Examine a map. Israel is a tiny country in a sea of sand. For the Palestinians(and their gullible apologetics in the West) to blame all their problems on Israel is sheer illusion. The Palestinians have refused to compromise at every turn to achieve some kind of peaceful state of coexistence.

Why should they compromise? It's their land. It's like me moving into your house, with your family, then saying, "Sorry, you have to compromise so we can coexist peacefully."

I wish there were more people in the world of the same mind toward the Jews as you (and I) are; I am SO sick and tired of hearing about those $%&*#@?! Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims being "poor, downtrodden, and innocent" while they're killing Jews left and right, and the State of Israel being "illegal" and "racist" when in fact giving the Jews the land of Palestine is merely decent and humane.

Because the Jews have been persecuted, killed, tortured, enslaved, violated, and whatnot, for over eighteen centuries, in every nation, country, and kingdom whither they have fled/wandered/been driven/been chased, EXCEPT THE LAND OF PALESTINE.

Well, evidently if the Palestinians are killing the Jews left and right, Palestine is no exception. Who is giving the land of Palestine decent and humane to, exactly? Certainly not the Palestinians who were displaced so the West could alleviate their guilt regarding their total indifference to the Nazi regime.

To the Muslims, Arabs, and wrongly so called "Palestinians", I say this:

GIVE THE JEWS A BREAK. THEY'VE SUFFERED, WANDERING FROM PLACE TO PLACE FOR 1,878 YEARS, NEVER HAVING ANY REST, AND IT'S TIME THEY GOT SOME. GIVE THEM THE LAND OF PALESTINE (ALL OF IT, INCLUDING THE WEST BANK, GAZA STRIP, GOLAN HEIGHTS, AND ANY OTHER PART OF THEIR LAND YOU NOW OCCUPY) AND LEAVE THEM ALONE.

And what exactly are the Palestinian people supposed to do? Where are they supposed to go? How does the land belong to the Jews exactly? And please don't refer to any fairy book, no matter how old it is.

And what exactly are the Palestinian people supposed to do? Where are they supposed to go? How does the land belong to the Jews exactly? And please don't refer to any fairy book, no matter how old it is.
They're supposed to live alongside the Israelis, with the third of Israeli citizens who are Arab, have exactly the same rights as all other Israeli citizens and happen to enjoy a higher standard of living than citizens of pretty much every other country in the Middle East.

They're supposed to live alongside the Israelis, with the third of Israeli citizens who are Arab, have exactly the same rights as all other Israeli citizens and happen to enjoy a higher standard of living than citizens of pretty much every other country in the Middle East.

Except I get the impression the person I was quoting was suggesting that they not live in Palestine anymore...

And because that plan has worked in just about every country where some other group has decided to move in :rolleyes: .

They're supposed to live in Israel, with the third of its citizens who are Arab, have exactly the same rights as all other Israeli citizens and happen to enjoy a higher standard of living than pretty much every other country in the Middle East.

Personally I think this would be a great solution, however it is one that Israel will never do.

They want the land in Gaza and the West Bank -as evidenced by their settlement and wall building plans, however they do not want the Palastinians on that land, which is why they run the West Bank as a quasi-state where they control the land and peoples lives but do not have to give democratic rights to the Palastinians on that Land.

Why do they not want the people in Palastine?

Jewish Population in Israel = 4.5 Million (includes West Bank)
Palastinan Population in Israel = 1.4 Million (under a quarter rather than the third you said...)
Palastinian Population in West Bank = 2.4 Million
Palastinian Population in Gaza = 1.4 Million

(All from CIA World Factbook)

So...
Total Jewish population = 4.5 million.
Total Palastinian Population = 5.2 million.

Now - Israel is quite happy running a psuedo-democracy where 1.4 million palastinian votes are set against 4.5 million jewish ones, however they are not so keen on a democracy where 5.2million palastinian votes face 4.5 million jewish ones - so they keep as many palastinians as possible out of the democratic system while still controling their lives and their land.

Except I get the impression the person I was quoting was suggesting that they not live in Palestine anymore...

And because that plan has worked in just about every country where some other group has decided to move in :rolleyes: .
Ooh, true that. To be honest, I never understood the 'wandering all over the earth' argument. Sympathy for the Jews because of the Holocaust is fine, of course many Jews would have lost family members then, but it's not like any particular Jewish person literally wandered the earth for thousands of years. They stayed in one country and did what the inhabitants of that country did, of course.

They stayed in one country and did what the inhabitants of that country diddid they?

How long have you lived in Germany to gain this insight?8 years.

Ya know, there were Jews who joined the SS.
Meh, it's borderline. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Karaites#During_the_Holocaust) Normal Jews wouldn't have been allowed in.

Much like this poor little boy (http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0003/black_nazi.html). All he ever wanted was to join the Hitlerjugend like everybody else. And they wouldn't let him!

Wouldn't it be more peaceful that way?

Good point.

did they?
Well, they plotted the World Jewish Conspiracy in their spare time, I guess. :rolleyes:

Are Soviet and Eastern European victims counted in the definition of the 'Holocaust'?

Rummel counts them.

Ooh, true that. To be honest, I never understood the 'wandering all over the earth' argument. Sympathy for the Jews because of the Holocaust is fine, of course many Jews would have lost family members then, but it's not like any particular Jewish person literally wandered the earth for thousands of years. They stayed in one country and did what the inhabitants of that country did, of course.

Yeah, I never get that one either. I grew up with my mum doing her senior when I was a kid, and she majored in Modern History, so I have a great deal of sympathy for the Jews for the tragedy of the Holocaust, just like I have sympathy for the Roma and Sinti in particular. But I don't understand the wandering thing. I mean, most of those families had lived in Europe for longer than some European families. Honestly...

Well, they plotted the World Jewish Conspiracy in their spare time, I guess. Or pursued their sinister religion?

Yeah, I never get that one either. I grew up with my mum doing her senior when I was a kid, and she majored in Modern History, so I have a great deal of sympathy for the Jews for the tragedy of the Holocaust, just like I have sympathy for the Roma and Sinti in particular. But I don't understand the wandering thing. I mean, most of those families had lived in Europe for longer than some European families. Honestly...Well, that's Jewish ideology. The great myth of the diaspora...

Or pursued their sinister religion?
Ah, those crazy Jews and their baby-eating rituals. Such loveable rascals, they are. :)

Myth? Ever wonder why there's a damn great Mosque on the temple mount?

Ah, those crazy Jews and their baby-eating rituals. Such loveable rascals, they are.Worshiping Yhvh is sinister enough.

Which other people suffered more from genocide?

Don't ask unless you want the answer, and since you did ask, here's the answer: the Ukrainians. 1932-1933, Stalin's Forced Famine (or Holodomor), in which millions (the numbers can vary up to 7 million or so) Ukrainians died because the Soviets siphoned all food resources from the country because it refused to join Soviet Russia.

Holodomor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor)

Don't ask unless you want the answer, and since you did ask, here's the answer: the Ukrainians. 1932-1933, Stalin's Forced Famine (or Holodomor), in which millions (the numbers can vary up to 7 million or so) Ukrainians died because the Soviets siphoned all food resources from the country because it refused to join Soviet Russia.

Holodomor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor)

I understand that quite a few people in Eastern Europe viewed the Nazis as the *good* guys, as their comparison was the Soviets...

I understand that quite a few people in Eastern Europe viewed the Nazis as the *good* guys, as their comparison was the Soviets...

It is the result of the very famine that I mentioned that they viewed the Nazis more favourably than the Soviets, as they weren't victims of the Nazis' systematic genocide and ethnic cleansing as much as they were victims of random Soviet purges.

It is the result of the very famine that I mentioned that they viewed the Nazis more favourably than the Soviets, as they weren't victims of the Nazis' systematic genocide and ethnic cleansing as much as they were victims of random Soviet purges.

Sorry - yes, that is what I ment to say - not that they were Nazi sympathisers but that compared to what they endured at the hands of the Soviets the (really quite appaling) actions of the Nazis towards them were not bad in comparison.

I don't understand why denying the Holocaust is illegal in so many European countries. These laws only increase anti-Semitism. Apparently these Jews enjoy their victim status, so they are afraid that facts may ruin it. If the Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, then what does anyone have to fear from a complete investigation?

Anti-Semites will be ignorant, hateful bastards regardless. Pretending that this might be the cause of their deep racism is pathetic. And go ahead and investigate...just don't pretend it didn't happen to further your racist ends.

The record of the Wansee conference was proven to be a forgery, obviously done by someone illiterate in German.

Of course they are, of course. Just like the corpses at the concentration camps were. Or the Nazi documents that recorded the number of dead. Or the first-hand accounts of both survivors and guards/administrators. All of it was forged and faked...

...why not go back to Stormfront and leave reality again? To believe the Holocaust was faked or never occured is to fight against reality and mounds of evidence.

Of course they are, of course. Just like the corpses at the concentration camps were. Or the Nazi documents that recorded the number of dead. Or the first-hand accounts of both survivors and guards/administrators. All of it was forged and faked...

...why not go back to Stormfront and leave reality again? To believe the Holocaust was faked or never occured is to fight against reality and mounds of evidence.

I know I know, I love the idea that the Nazis were just trying to make themselves look hardcore by meticulously keeping track of non-existent mass murders. Bunch of fucking posers! I wonder if Stalin faked it too. Those damn Ukrainians, trying to play up their victim status just went along with the big poser Stalin...

I know I know, I love the idea that the Nazis were just trying to make themselves look hardcore by meticulously keeping track of non-existent mass murders. Bunch of fucking posers! I wonder if Stalin faked it too. Those damn Ukrainians, trying to play up their victim status just went along with the big poser Stalin...

I remember a year or so ago, I asked the poster who had the OPs job before him a question. If the Holocaust never happened, where did the 11 Million or so people who died go? Where did the populations of the villages/towns and cities go? On holiday? Another dimension? Did Iceland's population suddenly blossom by about 500%?

Oddly, I never got an answer...

I remember a year or so ago, I asked the poster who had the OPs job before him a question. If the Holocaust never happened, where did the 11 Million or so people who died go? Where did the populations of the villages/towns and cities go? On holiday? Another dimension? Did Iceland's population suddenly blossom by about 500%?

Oddly, I never got an answer...

Jews have a special magnetic aura that creates black holes when they they shed the blood of Christian babies in certain towns that were cursed by angry old spinster gypsies. So, they magically send all those people and towns to a wonderful alternative world where we all live in a Yellow Submarine. :D Sorry, I had to... I couldn't resist. :) :) :) :)

I don't understand why denying the Holocaust is illegal in so many European countries. These laws only increase anti-Semitism. Apparently these Jews enjoy their victim status, so they are afraid that facts may ruin it. If the Holocaust was as factual as Europe claims, then what does anyone have to fear from a complete investigation?

I agree that holocaust legislation is quite ludicrous. Censorship and supression of the right to free speach. It only increases the problem. We should defeat holocaust-deniers, young-earthers, and global-warming-skeptics in fair debate, not act like tyrants and justify their claims.

So, in the interests of fair debate, care to show us these facts? We holocaust-believers, of course, have lots of facts.

1) 6 million Jews and numerous others suddenly ceased to be in the German sphere-of-influence. This is undeniable. We have their birth records, in most cases.
2) The Nazis hated Jews. We still have anti-semitic propaganda footage. They interned Jews in camps.
3) Soviet, British, and American soldiers attacked these camps, freed the prisoners (well, I know the British and Americans did), and testified the existence of extermination equipment.

There you have it. Entire battalions sharing the same mass-hallucination across the Third Reich and its allies, in neat correlation with the International Jewish Conspiracy. It must be even more elaborate than was previously suspected, and involve mind-control.

Or we could just use Occam's Razor.

2) The Nazis hated Jews. We still have anti-semitic propaganda footage. They interned Jews in camps.
The Nazis really hated Commie Jews, but just to be certain, they targeted ALL of them. You know, just to be certain. :p

(The Communists in the Russian Revolution were primarily Jewish)

The Nazis really hated Commie Jews, but just to be certain, they targeted ALL of them. You know, just to be certain. :p

The conspiracy grows and grows...

Wait... you know too much! You're one of them!

Agggggghh! God-hating Jewish communist baby-eating liberal! Agggggh!

(The Communists in the Russian Revolution were primarily Jewish) Except for Lenin and Stalin, the most harmful ones.

Either the Jews had a merciful streak, or were just bungling. Take your pick… :D

This thread never happened.

I wish there were more people in the world of the same mind toward the Jews as you (and I) are; I am SO sick and tired of hearing about those $%&*#@?! Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims... Do not worry..
there is plenty just like you..
and just like you..they are all sick of hearing about those $%&*#@?! Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims victimizing those innocent Jews.

I agree that holocaust legislation is quite ludicrous. Censorship and supression of the right to free speach. It only increases the problem. We should defeat holocaust-deniers, young-earthers, and global-warming-skeptics in fair debate, not act like tyrants and justify their claims.

So, in the interests of fair debate, care to show us these facts? We holocaust-believers, of course, have lots of facts.

1) 6 million Jews and numerous others suddenly ceased to be in the German sphere-of-influence. This is undeniable. We have their birth records, in most cases.
2) The Nazis hated Jews. We still have anti-semitic propaganda footage. They interned Jews in camps.
3) Soviet, British, and American soldiers attacked these camps, freed the prisoners (well, I know the British and Americans did), and testified the existence of extermination equipment.

There you have it. Entire battalions sharing the same mass-hallucination across the Third Reich and its allies, in neat correlation with the International Jewish Conspiracy. It must be even more elaborate than was previously suspected, and involve mind-control.

Or we could just use Occam's Razor.

This is all clearly evidence of the Jewish Mind Control Ray. There is no other rational explanation.

.. I don't hate the Jewish people, because God says He will CURSE all those who curse the Jews (Genesis 12:1-3; Esther 9:1).so.. you hate everyone not "protected" by your bible?

You are pathetic.
An old book.. written by other men (your bible) dictates what race you can (or cannot) be friendly to.
______________________________________
Actually it's how it's interpreted by the people who do the "teaching."well someone is teaching them to hate or not-hate entire races.. based on their very own Bible versions..

Shall we talk about modern "interpretations?" sure..
My view is that you should read -yourself- those old religious writings.. and make YOUR OWN interpretations.

If you allow Idiots like Pat Robertson (or the other evangelicals) make you love only the Jews.. and hate those $%&*#@?! Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims.. then you are the idiot of the idiot.

Could the religious flamears go to another thread. This one's for discussion of the Holocaust. There are plenty of other threads for religious flame-wars.