NationStates Jolt Archive

I find the GNS (Gamer/Narratavist/Simulationist) theory of RPGs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_Theory) to hold pretty well true.

For nation-sim MMORPGs, I've played and observed NationStates RP for quite a while. I've been playing Cybernations for about a month now.

It struck in a recent Eureka! moment that NS is very narrativist and CN is very gamist.

To me, Nationstates seem to be a narratavist game. Players are given a loose
framework, and, at least in the role-play aspects, are given more or less free reign to create the dramatic narravtive of a narrativist game.

In Cybernations, on the otherhand, focuses on "winning"
by beating other nations. Less thought seems to be given to narrative or realistic simulation than to making a winning/loosing game.

Both are fun. However, the games that appeal to me tend to be simulationist. I can't really think of any simulationist MMORPG nation sims, especially that might be considered in the same vein/range as NS and CN.

Are there any I might be missing?

Poll Qustion: Would you play a simulationist style (ie more realistic) version of a nation sim MMORPG?

If so, what would you like to see in one?

I'd think a more realistic one would be very clunky in action.

That's an interesting idea, never come across it before.

I'd think a more realistic one would be very clunky in action.

Well, yes, seen from a non-simulationists view point, it would. But that's the neat thing about it. It's not one system fits all. Or at least it shouldn't be... NS fits the narrativist approach well, but leaves the gamist and simulationist without a comfortable framework. CN fits the gamist approach well, but doesn't leave the narrativist the wiggle room to (in the words of that evil man) "make drama!" and doesn't give the simulationist a satisfactory feeling of accuracy.

Another way of asking the question would be: are you another person who'd like to see a simulationists version of a nation sim MMORPG in addition to the gamist and narrativist versions. (And yes, I expect the "yes" numbers to be lower, but that's not unreasonable considering the question considers the NS to be a biased sample. Mostly it's to see if there's 0 interest at all, in which case, I'd have to re-evaluate my thoughts on the subject... ;))

That's an interesting idea, never come across it before.

It's been kicking around for a while in game design circles.

A relatred but different version can be found here: http://www.io.com/~angilas/taxonomy.html

Well, yes, seen from a non-simulationists view point, it would. But that's the neat thing about it. It's not one system fits all. Or at least it shouldn't be... NS fits the narrativist approach well, but leaves the gamist and simulationist without a comfortable framework. CN fits the gamist approach well, but doesn't leave the narrativist the wiggle room to (in the words of that evil man) "make drama!" and doesn't give the simulationist a satisfactory feeling of accuracy.

Another way of asking the question would be: are you another person who'd like to see a simulationists version of a nation sim MMORPG in addition to the gamist and narrativist versions. (And yes, I expect the "yes" numbers to be lower, but that's not unreasonable considering the question considers the NS to be a biased sample. Mostly it's to see if there's 0 interest at all, in which case, I'd have to re-evaluate my thoughts on the subject... ;))
Ok, to expand upon that, I would actually be very interested in a NS type sim (not NationStates, this game, but a nation/state). The issue I would have with it would be that such a sim would very quickly become bogged down under its own weight (there's a lot of aspects to running a country after all), or would be so simple that I would quickly lose interest (or get frustrated as I wasn't allowed freedom to do something). So if you could walk the line between the two, I'd be interested.

GNS? What are you talking about? NSG is the real reason why i'm here.

Oh no, not Cybernations.

Well, I've been on NS for about a year, and CN roughly half of that time. I haven't really tried the game aspect of NS beyond the daily routine of policy choices (which gets old quick.) I use it to scope out General more than anything else.

Cybernations, is a nice attempt at bringing more of a strategic element to the game, but in my mind falls short on many levels. First of all, even though it has different religions and government styles, the impact of them is relatively unimportant, because you tend to choose the one that makes your people happier at the time. So the logical ideological struggles I would personally like to see in a Nation Simulator just aren't there. Which leads to the other problem; the colour-coded alliances. I was a NAAC member for a while, but was quickly bored with it. Other than just choosing a team, there seems to be no real point behind the game, other than just random attacks and defense. It gets pretty boring.

At least, with NS, I could invite a few friends to join my region, and we could RP our own rediculous little wars, etc. Not perfect, but it was far more entertaining.

I don't know if there will ever be an NS2, but it would be interesting to see if they could incorporate more strategy to the whole game. By and large, I get my nation-simulation kicks out by playing Civ IV. It'll do.

Oh no, not Cybernations.
Cybernations is great but not enough damn people have the right resources to trade with me.

sure CN has war and a lot of other stuff and according to them is "superior" but then why do 3 times as many ppl play NS?

NS has more soul than CN ever will.

sure CN has war and a lot of other stuff and according to them is "superior" but then why do 3 times as many ppl play NS?

NS has more soul than CN ever will.
The Cybernations Forums suck balls, Nationstates has a community spirit, the only way you'll find one of them on Cybernations is each respective Alliances personel website/forum, and the alliances largely ruin CN because some have such a strong power base.
Some players are getting close to maxing out their Infra Tech and have all the Improvments that the Admin needed to create Wonders.


However someone quiet recently posted a formula for working out combat effectivness of ones troops in battle in relation to type of government.
NS is supperior because of the way people use their words however a few RPer's get Kudos for being who they are whilst being unrealistic Nutbars.
The CN version of that is the Rebels with Nukes that stuffed up the Global Radiation Metre by Nuking everything in site when Global Radiation was introduced.

Also the Trade structure is a bit of a pain in the arse when someone quits, it stuffs up ones nation badly.

I like Tribal Wars (http://www.tribalwars.net) more than CN because of the better trade system and more active Troops.

Um
Ok

I find the GNS (Gamer/Narratavist/Simulationist) theory of RPGs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_Theory) to hold pretty well true.

For nation-sim MMORPGs, I've played and observed NationStates RP for quite a while. I've been playing Cybernations for about a month now.

It struck in a recent Eureka! moment that NS is very narrativist and CN is very gamist.

To me, Nationstates seem to be a narratavist game. Players are given a loose
framework, and, at least in the role-play aspects, are given more or less free reign to create the dramatic narravtive of a narrativist game.

In Cybernations, on the otherhand, focuses on "winning"
by beating other nations. Less thought seems to be given to narrative or realistic simulation than to making a winning/loosing game.

Both are fun. However, the games that appeal to me tend to be simulationist. I can't really think of any simulationist MMORPG nation sims, especially that might be considered in the same vein/range as NS and CN.

Are there any I might be missing?

Poll Qustion: Would you play a simulationist style (ie more realistic) version of a nation sim MMORPG?

If so, what would you like to see in one?

I might, it depends. The fabled "NS2" would probably be more like a realistic MMORPG and I'd definitely play that.

Ok, to expand upon that, I would actually be very interested in a NS type sim (not NationStates, this game, but a nation/state). The issue I would have with it would be that such a sim would very quickly become bogged down under its own weight (there's a lot of aspects to running a country after all), or would be so simple that I would quickly lose interest (or get frustrated as I wasn't allowed freedom to do something). So if you could walk the line between the two, I'd be interested.

Of the triad of gamer, simulationist, and narrativist, the simulationist has to walk the line of bogged down rules and elegance more than the others. The narrativist tends to work best under free form and the gamer works best under simplicity. It's the simulationist who has to walk that line. (Note: the others each have their own line to walk.)

sure CN has war and a lot of other stuff and according to them is "superior" but then why do 3 times as many ppl play NS?

NS has more soul than CN ever will.

NS and CN are, as I tried to point out, but two parts of a triad. NS has been around longer, CN has been around briefly, and there's not yet a simulationist version. As I suggested above, NS attracts a narrativist player, thus those who stick around here will tend not to be simulationists or gamers.

I might, it depends. The fabled "NS2" would probably be more like a realistic MMORPG and I'd definitely play that.

If it ever appears.

Part of what got me thinking about this was how I thought I might do such a game.

NS has one bit I like - daily play which affects the color. CN has other parts I like - elemnts like resources and trade.

Both are random in their allocation of recources.

And neither really takes into account the relationship between culture and nation.

NS assumes everything is government. You have a government with policy X, it equals cultural aspect Y. The various possibilities are dealt with free form in RP.

CN has more limited and random cultural aspects. And the RP aspects tend to be ignored in favor of what wins.