NationStates Jolt Archive

Why can't we all just get along? :headbang:

Hmmm it says Ottoman empire on my pre-WW1 map.

Iraq still says Iraq.So what?
Do you really think at one point it will say USA on Iraq?
dont be silly.

So were half the empires in the Middle East. Actually all empired in the Middle East were technicaly occupyers. So what?
empires come and go.. Nations stay.
If your Nation is strong enough.. if your people has the willpower.. it will survive the Empires.

the Iraqi government has full control over the governmentWAHAAHAHAAHAHA.. awww
thanks.. I needed a good laugh.

And FYI, the US is not occupying the Iraqtell that to the Iraqis.

It is not going to become green anytime soon because of the cluster bombs.

If Israel cares so much about the environment.. Why-the-hell do they keep Cluster bombing the cultivable lands??

I am assuming Israel knows the "environment" does not stop at the border..

Before the cluster bombs it wasn't green in Lebanon.

It was brown and like a wasteland, because Hezbollah had put landmines EVERY FUCKING WHERE.

Adding a few cluster bombs to a minefield doesn't really make it that much more dangerous.

Oh urmm and to add something to the debate - yes, Lebanon haven't done anything to disarm Hezbollah. This is absolutely true. But what the hell could they do?

The Lebanese Military is basically the armed police force of Lebanon, whereas Hezbollah are a relatively well-trained and well equipped force, with the knowledge of their local area and, in some cases, local support, too.

Offering incentives to lay down their arms isn't going to work - Iran'll pay them double the money to stay active, and due to their oil reserves, that's certainly a possibility.

And trying to slug it out with Hezbollah would lead to a defeat for the Lebanese army, and would really piss off the general public, who already held large rallies essentially at Hezbollah's behest.

What you say is undoubtedly true, but they could have requested help. The Syrian Army has been basically occupying the country, and they're both effective and well-equipped. I've also little doubt that Turkey and Egypt would have lent a hand if asked.

My problem isn't that Lebanon would find it difficult to disarm Hezbollah; it's that they haven't even tried. They haven't approached anyone for help. As far as I know, they've never even brought it up WITH Hezbollah.

Somebody tries to do what they're supposed to and fails, that's a pity. Someone doesn't even make the first move towards trying, and you can reasonably say they've reneged on the deal.

Israel's side is filled with lush forests and green fields.
I'm going to call Bullshit on this.

You portray Israel as a nation of forests raised out of nothing. Lets see what the nation looks like:

From CIA World Factbook:

Area:
total: 20,770 sq km
land: 20,330 sq km
water: 440 sq km

Climate:
temperate; hot and dry in southern and eastern desert areas

Terrain:
Negev desert in the south; low coastal plain; central mountains; Jordan Rift Valley

Land use:
arable land: 15.45%
permanent crops: 3.88%
other: 80.67% (2005)

Irrigated land:
1,940 sq km (2003)

Natural hazards:
sandstorms may occur during spring and summer; droughts; periodic earthquakes

Environment - current issues:
limited arable land and natural fresh water resources pose serious constraints; desertification; air pollution from industrial and vehicle emissions; groundwater pollution from industrial and domestic waste, chemical fertilizers, and pesticides
So 80%+ of the country is not even arable, you have deserts and sandstorms are a hazard facing the country, droughts and desertification are issues and man made pollution from industry and farming are also serious problems.

Yup. Sounds like Lush Green Forests to me.

I'm going to call Bullshit on this.

You portray Israel as a nation of forests raised out of nothing. Lets see what the nation looks like:

From CIA World Factbook:


So 80%+ of the country is not even arable, you have deserts and sandstorms are a hazard facing the country, droughts and desertification are issues and man made pollution from industry and farming are also serious problems.

Yup. Sounds like Lush Green Forests to me.

I see you glossed over the coastal plains and the Jordan Rift Valley. Both arable lands.

Every nation has Natural Hazards. You should see what is listed under the U.S. I've experienced alot of them.

I see you glossed over the coastal plains and the Jordan Rift Valley. Both arable lands.

Every nation has Natural Hazards. You should see what is listed under the U.S. I've experienced alot of them.

Nevertheless, IDF is slightly exaggerating the contrast of the apparent lush, vibrant green paradise that are Israeli lands and the dusty, Death valley that is Lebanon.

What you say is undoubtedly true, but they could have requested help. The Syrian Army has been basically occupying the country, and they're both effective and well-equipped. I've also little doubt that Turkey and Egypt would have lent a hand if asked.
The Syrians support Hezbollah, by means of any money they've got left over, so I don't really see why they would want to help.

Plus I think that the Lebanese, after about twenty solid years of occupation, probably aren't particularly willing to have foreign troops on their land, taking away the only real military force that's (vaguely) on their side.
My problem isn't that Lebanon would find it difficult to disarm Hezbollah; it's that they haven't even tried. They haven't approached anyone for help. As far as I know, they've never even brought it up WITH Hezbollah.

Somebody tries to do what they're supposed to and fails, that's a pity. Someone doesn't even make the first move towards trying, and you can reasonably say they've reneged on the deal.
There's a bit of an issue with this -

The Lebanese government has a large amount of people from Hezbollah in it, and I'm sure that the various UN resolutions passed against them have been noticed.

On the other hand, since Lebanon has basically been a pawn in the region for whoever has invaded for the last 30 years, I'm actually pretty sure that the Lebanese government is quite happy to leave Hezbollah where they are, so that they've got something of a buffer to Israel.

The Syrians support Hezbollah, by means of any money they've got left over, so I don't really see why they would want to help.

Plus I think that the Lebanese, after about twenty solid years of occupation, probably aren't particularly willing to have foreign troops on their land, taking away the only real military force that's (vaguely) on their side.

There's a bit of an issue with this -

The Lebanese government has a large amount of people from Hezbollah in it, and I'm sure that the various UN resolutions passed against them have been noticed.

On the other hand, since Lebanon has basically been a pawn in the region for whoever has invaded for the last 30 years, I'm actually pretty sure that the Lebanese government is quite happy to leave Hezbollah where they are, so that they've got something of a buffer to Israel.

Nor would I have any problem with that, if not for two things:

1) Hezbollah keeps doing unneighbourly things to Israel, and

2) Disarmament of the militias (including Hezbollah) was part of the agreement they signed to get Israel to pull back to their borders instead of controlling the southern half of the country.

Both of these seem to me good reasons to at least ASK Hezbollah to stop.

And if they won't do as Lebanon asks, then isn't Hezbollah just another foreign occupier?

I see you glossed over the coastal plains and the Jordan Rift Valley. Both arable lands.

How did I gloss over them? I was just highlighting that a lot of Israel is not arable or lush green forests. About 80% if the CIA website is anything to go by... I would then guess that the Plains and Rift Valley make up parts of the 20% you can actually grow stuff on.

Hey! Lets compare to Brown and Dusty Lebanon:

From CIA World Factbook:

Area:
total: 10,400 sq km
land: 10,230 sq km
water: 170 sq km

Climate
Mediterranean; mild to cool, wet winters with hot, dry summers; Lebanon mountains experience heavy winter snows

Terrain:
narrow coastal plain; El Beqaa (Bekaa Valley) separates Lebanon and Anti-Lebanon Mountains

Natural resources:
limestone, iron ore, salt, water-surplus state in a water-deficit region, arable land

Land use:
arable land: 16.35%
permanent crops: 13.75%
other: 69.9% (2005)

Irrigated land:
1,040 sq km (2003)

Natural hazards:
dust storms, sandstorms

Environment - current issues:
deforestation; soil erosion; desertification; air pollution in Beirut from vehicular traffic and the burning of industrial wastes; pollution of coastal waters from raw sewage and oil spills

So - they have a little more arable land, about 4 times as much land actually supporting permanent crops, they have plenty of water and experience wet winters and have about the same portion of their land supported by irrigation as Israel does.

In balance they face similar issues to Israel with dust storms and desertification and have polloution issues too.

So given this it would appear that either IDFs claim of Israel being a lush green forest is bullshit, or that lebanon with more water and more arable land and an equal portion of their country irrigated is an even better lush green forest. Or it could be that he took a photo of one section of the border where Israel and Lebanon simply have different agrigcultural policies and ignored everywhere along the border where Lebanon is doing farming while Israel isn't. You can do the same for both sides of the border all along the US/Canada border - one shows canada all green, but a while down the road america is the green place.

Nor would I have any problem with that, if not for two things:

1) Hezbollah keeps doing unneighbourly things to Israel
This is true. On the other hand, this is sort of why Israel can't just come back in when it likes, which is exactly the point of it.
2) Disarmament of the militias (including Hezbollah) was part of the agreement they signed to get Israel to pull back to their borders instead of controlling the southern half of the country.
On the other hand, the actual state of Lebanon has close to no control whatsoever in the south. Either Hezbollah or Israel is in charge, and that's sort of the way it is.
Both of these seem to me good reasons to at least ASK Hezbollah to stop.
Or possibly, to fund and support them properly.
And if they won't do as Lebanon asks, then isn't Hezbollah just another foreign occupier?
That is basically what it is, really, already - but on the other hand, its presence is pretty benign, all in all, since it keeps out invaders to the north of the country by stopping them in the south.

It was brown and like a wasteland, because Hezbollah had put landmines EVERY FUCKING WHERE.
prove it

Adding a few cluster bombs to a minefield doesn't really make it that much more dangerous.a few cluster bombs ??

Before the cluster bombs it wasn't green in Lebanon. :rolleyes: you are talking you've it with your own eyes.. have you ever been there?

This is true. On the other hand, this is sort of why Israel can't just come back in when it likes, which is exactly the point of it.


Except that Israel did exactly that. And Hezbollah didn't seem to have much of hope of stopping them.


That is basically what it is, really, already - but on the other hand, its presence is pretty benign, all in all, since it keeps out invaders to the north of the country by stopping them in the south.

Which would be fine, if Hezbollah wasn't the entire reason the invaders were coming over the border in the first place. You don't guard your property with a rabid dog.

What you say is undoubtedly true, but they could have requested help. The Syrian Army has been basically occupying the country, and they're both effective and well-equipped..

They were asked to leave, under threat of sanctions. Apparently Dubya thought elections while a country had occupying troops in it was no true election. He didnt use sarcasm tags or wink, so the irony of that and Iraq/occupied territories obviously escaped him.

You should see what is listed under the U.S. I've experienced alot of them.
..

Is there some area afflicted by "unsubstantiated allegations"? You stated UN peacekeepers had committed "More and worse" atrocities. Examples please.

You don't guard your property with a rabid dog.

Well, you might if somebody kept cutting the phone line to the cops....

Well, you might if somebody kept cutting the phone line to the cops....

I think my fear of rabies would be greater than my fear of somebody breaking in. Especially since I know where I can get some "self-defence implements"...;)

Still, to get off the metaphorical roundabout, it can reasonably be said that Lebanon gets some benefit out of having Hezbollah ruling the southern half of the country. I just doubt that the benefit is as great as the occasional hammering by Israel over what Hezbollah does is a detriment.

What I think a great deal of the issue is what somebody else referred to, in that a certain amount of the Lebanese population fully support Hezbollah, particularily in that southern area, and feel betrayed by the central authorities for leaving them at the mercy of the so called SLA for years.