NationStates Jolt Archive

In case you didn't watch the Today Show this morning, you missed a simultaneous interview of Ann Coulter and Michael Dyson.

They were being interviewed about race and whether or not Obama could be elected president. Eventually the discussion gets to where states have been apologizing for slavery, and especially Virginia where Hargrove said black people "should get over" slavery - which is where the douchebaggery starts.

After that statement being brought up, Dyson gets indignant and retorts "[...] saying get over slavery, its like saying get over cancer, get over the disease you have [...]" Whoah, hold the fuck up! Did he just say get over cancer? An incurable disease? Did he just say getting over slavery is like getting over cancer?

This is the problem with the general black political movement - it is living in the past and refusing to move forward. It focuses on slavery and blames slavery for everything - not post-civil war racism, not current personal racism, but slavery. As long as the black political movement refuses to move itself forward, it will never get anywhere it wants to be.

To paraphrase a driving guide for being in an emergency driving situation: "look where you want to go, not where you are going or where you have been, otherwise you will end up getting in a crash." The black movement is looking straight ahead while keeping one eye in the rear view mirror, it is not aiming for a reduction of racism in the general populace but for reparations of past events and current indignations. As long as the black political movement focuses itself on gaining reparations as a supposed stepping stone for moving on instead of just moving on, the movement will still be behind where it was relatively when Dr. King was alive.

It focuses on slavery and blames slavery for everything - not post-civil war racism, not current personal racism, but slavery.

No, it doesn't.

No, it doesn't.
Then why the indignation and arming of the racism cannons when people suggest they get over slavery? And why would anyone say "get over slavery" if it wasn't a frequently referenced subject by the black political movement? That is highly pointless dickery, even for the Klan.

To paraphrase a driving guide for being in an emergency driving situation: "look where you want to go, not where you are going or where you have been, otherwise you will end up getting in a crash." The black movement is looking straight ahead while keeping one eye in the rear view mirror, it is not aiming for a reduction of racism in the general populace but for reparations of past events and current indignations. As long as the black political movement focuses itself on gaining reparations as a supposed stepping stone for moving on instead of just moving on, the movement will still be behind where it was relatively when Dr. King was alive.

I don't like the metaphor, but I agree with the basic point. One of the (many) recent problems with the movement is that, instead of truly processing the history and having a healthy awareness of it, there's an unhealthy obsession with it, a focus on the victimization and a search for largely meaningless symbols of apology to such a degree that it is impairing positive and substantive gains that can be made.

He obviously means the only way to cure slavery is chemotherapy.

I don't like the metaphor, but I agree with the basic point. One of the (many) recent problems with the movement is that, instead of truly processing the history and having a healthy awareness of it, there's an unhealthy obsession with it, a focus on the victimization and a search for largely meaningless symbols of apology to such a degree that it is impairing positive and substantive gains that can be made.

Very well put, and agreed.

He obviously means the only way to cure slavery is chemotherapy.

Or a relatively benign drug for an entirely different disease. Of course, why didn't I see it before!

There's nothing to be gained by resenting anyone alive in 2007 for slavery. It was horrible and, hopefully, will never happen again. As a naive white guy I happen to think it's stupid to dwell on slavery and think that anyone who sits around being mad about it needs to get over it.

Sorry if I sound stupid... maybe I'm wrong. I'm not forgetting the travesty of it, I just don't see any reason to be mad about it. It achieves nothing.

I don't like the metaphor, but I agree with the basic point. One of the (many) recent problems with the movement is that, instead of truly processing the history and having a healthy awareness of it, there's an unhealthy obsession with it, a focus on the victimization and a search for largely meaningless symbols of apology to such a degree that it is impairing positive and substantive gains that can be made.

^^^Nuff said.

Whoah, hold the fuck up! Did he just say get over cancer? An incurable disease? Did he just say getting over slavery is like getting over cancer?

cancer ain't incurable - it just takes some fairly intense measures, and just wishing doesn't solve the problem. really, it's actually a pretty good comparison.

Then why the indignation and arming of the racism cannons when people suggest they get over slavery?

Because it's a disgusting and racist line.

Should Jews "get over" the Holocaust?

And why would anyone say "get over slavery" if it wasn't a frequently referenced subject by the black political movement?

Because they want to forget about the long history of brutality and forced subordination inflicted upon Blacks; that's much more convenient for them, because that way they can just blame all the present disparities upon Blacks and do nothing about them.

"Get over" slavery, and "get over" segregation, and "get over" racism, so that we will never feel obligated to do anything about it.

The black political movement is a political movement, after all. That's why it's not called the black thinking movement. It's political and, like all politicians, the black ones will use any advantage they can get. That's why they use the slavery thing. It's a tool for them.

You don't see very many Jewish politicians who use the Holocaust as a political tool. If you learn from history instead of just obsessing about it, not only will you be more able to stop things, like slavery or the Holocaust, from happening again, you will allow people to better think for themselves instead of relying on politicians to do it for them. Then again, allowing politicians to make up our minds for ourselves is easier and taking the easy way allowed us to survive and create civilization without starving to extinction. That's why we still like meat. Before commercal farming and guns, it was either eat what was available, plant or animal, or starve to death.

My point is, politicians don't want us to "forget" (more like stop obsessing about) slavery instead of, you know, using our energy to keep it from happening again and moving on.

there's an unhealthy obsession with it, a focus on the victimization and a search for largely meaningless symbols of apology to such a degree that it is impairing positive and substantive gains that can be made.

The problem is that there is such a basic resistance to even admitting that THERE IS A PROBLEM that no such "positive and substantive gaings" can be made.

That's the purpose of the "largely meaningless symbols" you refer to.

One of the (many) recent problems with the movement is that, instead of truly processing the history and having a healthy awareness of it, there's an unhealthy obsession with it, a focus on the victimization and a search for largely meaningless symbols of apology to such a degree that it is impairing positive and substantive gains that can be made.


well, look at how difficult it is to get even 'largely meaningless symbols'. that stuff should be no-brainer, common deceny, "why the fuck haven't we done so already?" moves that just sail through. instead, we have endless struggles over them.

truly it is a mystery why the black community strongly feels that racism is alive and well.

Reason #2297 why I don't watch morning t.v.

Because it's a disgusting and racist line.

Should Jews "get over" the Holocaust?


Totally different things here. Jewish political movements (Which...aren't that many.) don't blame the Holocaust for everything bad that's happened to the jews since the Holocaust. Black political movements on the other hand tend to blame everything bad that's happened to the blacks since slavery on slavery.


I'm afraid I'm going to have to report you to the Analogy Police.

Come quietly to the cab, it's just like a walk in the park.

truly it is a mystery why the black community strongly feels that racism is alive and well.
Maybe because it is alive and well?

While, yes, a lot of this is a power ploy, there's also a grain of truth in there. The US hasn't admitied that it has done something wrong, instead we get a lot of dodges about how we should get over it, or my family didn't own slaves, or no one alive now has ever been a slave. We keep trying to sweep this under the bed and hide it away without looking at, really looking at, what the legacy of the particular institution has been.

There's been lots of excuses and it seems to be the same ploy that I see in Japan's dodges about what it did in WWII, hoping that it will all go away so that we never have to actually confront it and admit it.

If, as you say, it is nothing, why not appologize and get it over with?

The black political movement is a political movement, after all. That's why it's not called the black thinking movement. It's political and, like all politicians, the black ones will use any advantage they can get. That's why they use the slavery thing. It's a tool for them.

You don't see very many Jewish politicians who use the Holocaust as a political tool.

So Jewish politicians aren't politicians, because they won't use every advantage they will get? Or are they just a step above the black ones?

Actually, some Jewish politicians do reference the Holocaust... it's an old line in defense of Zionism and to point out the reality of the horrors of anti-Semitism. There is nothing wrong in principle with such use.

That's why you see anti-Semites like Ahmadinejad and the other Holocaust deniers trying to delegitimize it, because they don't want to acknowledge the reality of Jewish persecution, and the need that there was, and may still be, to do something serious about it.

If you learn from history instead of just obsessing about it, not only will you be more able to stop things, like slavery or the Holocaust, from happening again, you will allow people to better think for themselves instead of relying on politicians to do it for them. Then again, allowing politicians to make up our minds for ourselves is easier and taking the easy way allowed us to survive and create civilization without starving to extinction. That's why we still like meat. Before commercal farming and guns, it was either eat what was available, plant or animal, or starve to death.

This is utterly irrelevant.

My point is, politicians don't want us to "forget" (more like stop obsessing about) slavery instead of, you know, using our energy to keep it from happening again and moving on.

"Using our energy" is a good idea.

Now, tell me - how can you "use [your] energy" to solve anything if you won't even admit that there's something to use it for? That's the problem with the "get over it" line - it implies that there is NO MORE NEED FOR CONCERN. Somehow, all the problems have been solved, all the issues have vanished. They haven't, of course.

Black political movements on the other hand tend to blame everything bad that's happened to the blacks since slavery on slavery.

no they don't

no they don't

Yes they do.


See? We can both have fun little factless disagreements.

Totally different things here. Jewish political movements (Which...aren't that many.) don't blame the Holocaust for everything bad that's happened to the jews since the Holocaust. Black political movements on the other hand tend to blame everything bad that's happened to the blacks since slavery on slavery.


I'm afraid I'm going to have to report you to the Analogy Police.

Come quietly to the cab, it's just like a walk in the park.

Then I guess the Holocaust must not be a very useful political tool. Otherwise, politicians would be using it all the time. Then again, I find that most of those using segregation as an excuse were too young to truly know what it was like. The black politicians who were alive when segregation was enforced tend to focus on slavery. After all, they are politicians and politicians feed off of public sympathy and guilt.

(Which...aren't that many.)

There are plenty of Jewish political movements... some defunct, some still around. But that is a topic for another time, I suppose.

Black political movements on the other hand tend to blame everything bad that's happened to the blacks since slavery on slavery.

No, they don't.

They tend to blame many of the bad things that have happened to Blacks on slavery, segregation, persistent racial discrimination in the labor market and elsewhere, racist public policies in housing, education, and health care, and so on.

The problem is that there is such a basic resistance to even admitting that THERE IS A PROBLEM that no such "positive and substantive gaings" can be made.

Sure. And as has been repeatedly demonstrated, asking folks to admit that there is a problem by asking them to make apologies for past crimes that have already been stopped is really damn useless. What we need to get folks to admit is that there is still a problem, and a major one. And we're certainly not going to get the admission that there is a problem in the present that we need to deal with by harping on the crimes of the past.

That's the purpose of the "largely meaningless symbols" you refer to.

And they are failing miserably. Which should not be a surprise.

well, look at how difficult it is to get even 'largely meaningless symbols'. that stuff should be no-brainer, common deceny, "why the fuck haven't we done so already?" moves that just sail through. instead, we have endless struggles over them.

truly it is a mystery why the black community strongly feels that racism is alive and well.

Ignoring the sarcasm, I don't think it's a mystery at all why the black community feels that racism is alive and well.

What I do wonder about is why they feel that asking for apologies about past actions is really going to raise awareness of a very immediate problem in the present rather than distracting people from current racism, which is what it's actually doing.

Yes they do.


See? We can both have fun little factless disagreements.

the problem is, your position is trivially false. unless, of course, we are counting indirect causation - the slave system purposefully created a culture of racism, that culture still has a stronghold today, and thus we have racist outcomes. and if we are accepting that, then it makes absolute logical sense for people to blame those outcomes on slavery. in fact, to deny it is to deny reality.

Sure. And as has been repeatedly demonstrated, asking folks to admit that there is a problem by asking them to make apologies for past crimes that have already been stopped is really damn useless. What we need to get folks to admit is that there is still a problem, and a major one. And we're certainly not going to get the admission that there is a problem in the present that we need to deal with by harping on the crimes of the past.

No, you still aren't getting it.

The Black political movement doesn't say, when asking for apologies or reparations or anything else, that "Well, see, we know these things are dead and gone, but we want this anyway because we're greedy and self-absorbed."

They say, instead, "Look, there's this long pattern of vicious racism in this country, and it's time we addressed it - and the first step in addressing it is acknowledging the horrors that were done, because then perhaps we can begin to understand why this is still a lingering problem, and start building a will to do something about it."

The past leads into the present. The present is determined by the past. If you're trying to deal with the problems of the present, you can't pretend that the past doesn't exist.

One of the many reasons it's taken us so long to deal with the legacy of slavery is because it's taken so long for many whites to acknowledge what it really was. From Reconstruction to the Civil Rights Movement, the preferred tactic was obfuscation and denial about the nature of slavery. Now, since that's too politically incorrect, people prefer to just forget about it.

Sorry. It's not going to happen.

And they are failing miserably. Which should not be a surprise.

No, it shouldn't, in a country as racist as this one.

There's been lots of excuses and it seems to be the same ploy that I see in Japan's dodges about what it did in WWII, hoping that it will all go away so that we never have to actually confront it and admit it.
Speaking of bad analogies. Japan is literally trying to sweep what it did under the rug, literally erase it from history. On the other hand, in the US, students learn about slavery and its after-effects. There is no attempt to sweep slavery under the rug, the statement could be made about Japanese internment, but even then the attempt is barely existent compared to Japan, but with slavery? No. And the idea that being tired of blacks basing their problems and political movements on slavery is an attempt to sweep slavery under the rug shows the level of reactionary racism held by those who believe slavery is holding them down.

That's the problem with the "get over it" line - it implies that there is NO MORE NEED FOR CONCERN.
So you are suggesting there is a possibility of the re-emergence of slavery? Do I really need to elaborate?

No, you still aren't getting it.

I think you'll find that I "get" racism in this country just fine. I understand its roots, its various means of perpetuating itself, the natural trends in human psychology and sociology that help it perpetuate itself, the subtle forms of it that are so hard to eradicate because they are passive and so...normal...that we don't even see them as racism.

The Black political movement doesn't say, when asking for apologies or reparations or anything else, that "Well, see, we know these things are dead and gone, but we want this anyway because we're greedy and self-absorbed."

No, they don't. They just put the focus on past events, and that's where people look and say, "Wait, haven't we dealt with this?"

They say, instead, "Look, there's this long pattern of vicious racism in this country, and it's time we addressed it - and the first step in addressing it is acknowledging the horrors that were done, because then perhaps we can begin to understand why this is still a lingering problem, and start building a will to do something about it."

Yeah. That's a job for education, not political grandstanding.

The past leads into the present. The present is determined by the past. If you're trying to deal with the problems of the present, you can't pretend that the past doesn't exist.

That too, is a job for education, not political grandstanding. When you're talking about such a horribly complex and insidious problem like racism, political apologies just don't get the right message across.

One of the many reasons it's taken us so long to deal with the legacy of slavery is because it's taken so long for many whites to acknowledge what it really was. From Reconstruction to the Civil Rights Movement, the preferred tactic was obfuscation and denial about the nature of slavery. Now, since that's too politically incorrect, people prefer to just forget about it.

Sorry. It's not going to happen.

Very much agreed. I just don't think political apologies for past crimes are the way we keep the awareness alive. We can do that by pointing out plenty of other injustices that happen every day in the present.

So you are suggesting there is a possibility of the re-emergence of slavery?

The very next sentence makes it very clear what I mean.

That's the problem with the "get over it" line - it implies that there is NO MORE NEED FOR CONCERN. Somehow, all the problems have been solved, all the issues have vanished.

Do I really need to elaborate?

Indeed, strawmen are very convenient.

The very next sentence makes it very clear what I mean.

Again, are you seriously saying there is a threat for re-emergence of slavery?

I think you'll find that I "get" racism in this country just fine.

I didn't mean racism in general. I meant the specific area of my point.

No, they don't. They just put the focus on past events, and that's where people look and say, "Wait, haven't we dealt with this?"

Right. And when they put the focus on current events, people say, "Wait, haven't we dealt with this? Everything since 1965 is just lazy, ignorant blacks blaming white people for their own failures."

The obsession with "putting the past behind" on those who want to ignore the legacy of slavery and segregation is precisely why these apologies are necessary.

Yeah. That's a job for education, not political grandstanding.

It's a job for education, yes... but if it's just kept there, nothing will ever be done. The point of the "political grandstanding" is to get the government doing something.

That too, is a job for education, not political grandstanding. When you're talking about such a horribly complex and insidious problem like racism, political apologies just don't get the right message across.

It's part of the process, though. And it's the kind of thing that might get progress in other areas started.

Very much agreed. I just don't think political apologies for past crimes are the way we keep the awareness alive. We can do that by pointing out plenty of other injustices that happen every day in the present.

Again, the past determines the present.

Focus on the present at the expense of the past and you will get nothing but people blaming the victims.

Again, are you seriously saying there is a threat for re-emergence of slavery?

No. That's not what I said.

Somehow, all the problems have been solved, all the issues have vanished.

I don't believe that slavery constitutes all the racial problems in this country.

Speaking of bad analogies. Japan is literally trying to sweep what it did under the rug, literally erase it from history. On the other hand, in the US, students learn about slavery and its after-effects. There is no attempt to sweep slavery under the rug, the statement could be made about Japanese internment, but even then the attempt is barely existent compared to Japan, but with slavery? No.
Really? How well is slavery actually covered? Remembering my own history classes it was rather glossed over. Oh we knew there WAS slavery, and we're given it as the reason for the Civil War, but in many ways it matches the very same, "Yeah, it happend" throw away line that I see in some Japanese textbooks on Japanese actions in WWII.

Just mentioning that it happend does not equate actually facing what did happen.

And the idea that being tired of blacks basing their problems and political movements on slavery is an attempt to sweep slavery under the rug shows the level of reactionary racism held by those who believe slavery is holding them down.
No, it's noting that we're still living with the legacy of slavery and trying to ignore that is just as stupid as those who say, "We had the civil rights movement so everything is hunkydory now".

Speaking of bad analogies. Japan is literally trying to sweep what it did under the rug, literally erase it from history. On the other hand, in the US, students learn about slavery and its after-effects. There is no attempt to sweep slavery under the rug, the statement could be made about Japanese internment, but even then the attempt is barely existent compared to Japan, but with slavery? No.
Really? How well is slavery actually covered? Remembering my own history classes it was rather glossed over. Oh we knew there WAS slavery, and we're given it as the reason for the Civil War, but in many ways it matches the very same, "Yeah, it happend" throw away line that I see in some Japanese textbooks on Japanese actions in WWII.

Just mentioning that it happend does not equate actually facing what did happen.

And the idea that being tired of blacks basing their problems and political movements on slavery is an attempt to sweep slavery under the rug shows the level of reactionary racism held by those who believe slavery is holding them down.
No, it's noting that we're still living with the legacy of slavery and trying to ignore that is just as stupid as those who say, "We had the civil rights movement so everything is hunkydory now".

Then why the indignation and arming of the racism cannons when people suggest they get over slavery? And why would anyone say "get over slavery" if it wasn't a frequently referenced subject by the black political movement? That is highly pointless dickery, even for the Klan.Maybe because it's a fucking racist statement? Duh.

Maybe because it's a fucking racist statement?

nah, too obvious

I didn't mean racism in general. I meant the specific area of my point.

I get that just fine too. I just disagree with the methodology you support.

Right. And when they put the focus on current events, people say, "Wait, haven't we dealt with this? Everything since 1965 is just lazy, ignorant blacks blaming white people for their own failures."

Some do say that. But again, trying to get an apology for the crimes of the past won't help with that.

The obsession with "putting the past behind" on those who want to ignore the legacy of slavery and segregation is precisely why these apologies are necessary.

Sigh. The reason people are comfortable putting it in the past is because they aren't sufficiently educated on the link between the past racism and the present racism. You can't fight a lack of education by doing things that are just going to be dismissed by most because they lack the education to see them.

It's a job for education, yes... but if it's just kept there, nothing will ever be done. The point of the "political grandstanding" is to get the government doing something.

Doing what? Going through symbolic motions that aren't doing jack shit about racism?

It's part of the process, though. And it's the kind of thing that might get progress in other areas started.

Given the amount and kind of racism that you believe exists, I dare say that's got to be unlikely even from your perspective.

Focus on the present at the expense of the past and you will get nothing but people blaming the victims.

Agreed. But read my first post in this thread. I'm in favor of a healthy awareness of history. Where we are disagreeing is methodology.

Really? How well is slavery actually covered? Remembering my own history classes it was rather glossed over. Oh we knew there WAS slavery, and we're given it as the reason for the Civil War, but in many ways it matches the very same, "Yeah, it happend" throw away line that I see in some Japanese textbooks on Japanese actions in WWII.
What I hear is that it doesn't even exist in Japanese textbooks.

Just mentioning that it happend does not equate actually facing what did happen.
So facing it for the past 100+ years doesn't count?

No, it's noting that we're still living with the legacy of slavery and trying to ignore that is just as stupid as those who say, "We had the civil rights movement so everything is hunkydory now".
Which would be a relevant comparison if anyone was even suggesting that.

Maybe because it's a fucking racist statement? Duh.
How is saying "get over slavery" racist? Unless of course you are affirming my idea that black people cannot exist as individuals without slavery being considered in their individuality.

cancer ain't incurable - it just takes some fairly intense measures, and just wishing doesn't solve the problem. really, it's actually a pretty good comparison.

Actually, there are a wide variety of cancers. Some, like thyroid cancer, are eminently curable. Others, like some forms of leukaemia, are entirely incurable at present levels of knowledge.

Even some forms of what may superficially appear to be the same cancer are very different. Again using leukaemia as an example, acute leukaemias are fast-moving and aggressive and can kill you quickly, but are also more likely to be cured than their slow-moving chronic leukaemia counterparts, which are, alas, virtually incurable short of finding a bone marrow donor. I have the latter.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that there are so many different forms of cancer that the original metaphor is at best imperfect. Unless he was arguing that there were many different forms of slavery (which is true), some of which were arguably better than others (which is debatable). But somehow I doubt that's what was meant.

What I hear is that it doesn't even exist in Japanese textbooks.
You heard wrong. IIRC, I've corrected you on that a few times.

So facing it for the past 100+ years doesn't count?
Oh, and how have we faced it? That's the point. The nation has never said sorry, we've never done anything to address it, we've put it in dry history books or made a few films, but compared to, say, Germany we have not actually faced it.

Which would be a relevant comparison if anyone was even suggesting that.
You've been on this board HOW long now?

Some do say that. But again, trying to get an apology for the crimes of the past won't help with that.

Not in itself, no.

But I don't believe anyone suggests that the government just issue an apology and stop there.

Sigh. The reason people are comfortable putting it in the past is because they aren't sufficiently educated on the link between the past racism and the present racism.

No, you have cause and effect reversed. They are comfortable putting it in the past because it is in the past. We no longer have obvious legal discrimination. The point of bringing it up now is to draw attention to its legacy NOW.

Doing what? Going through symbolic motions that aren't doing jack shit about racism?

Again, nobody suggests that we stop there.

But do explain to me how you can get anything done if people won't even admit that there are problems, and that the responsibility for solving them does not only lie with blacks, but rather with the people of this country as a whole. That acknowledgment has to be the first step.

Given the amount and kind of racism that you believe exists, I dare say that's got to be unlikely even from your perspective.

I'm not actually very enthusiastic for the present tactics, for this reason and for others, but the Revolution is not imminent. I take what I can get.

Not in itself, no.

But I don't believe anyone suggests that the government just issue and apology and stop there.

No? Because that's usually what ends up happening. So perhaps we need a different approach. You know, one that works.

No, you have cause and effect reversed. They are comfortable putting it in the past because it is in the past. We no longer have obvious legal discrimination. The point of bringing it up now is to draw attention to its legacy NOW.

So you're going to bring the past up to a bunch of people by apologizing for the past so that they can see the legacy of that past, when those people are the ones who consistently refuse to see it because of a lack of education? Right. That's really not working out.

Again, nobody suggests that we stop there.

True, they're just suggesting that we start there, and then nothing really gets started.

But do explain to me how you can get anything done if people won't even admit that there are problems, and that the responsibility for solving them does not only lie with blacks, but rather with the people of this country as a whole. That acknowledgment has to be the first step.

It's going to come from education, as I've mentioned before several times.

I'm not actually very enthusiastic for the present tactics, for this reason and for others, but the Revolution is not imminent. I take what I can get.

I don't. I advocate effective strategies for dealing with racism, and don't accept or condone useless tactics that just end up perpetuating racism.

Anyone else notice that this thread consist of four people in two seperate conversations saying the same thing over and over again to each other?

Anyone else notice that this thread consist of four people in two seperate conversations saying the same thing over and over again to each other?

Yeah. Not much different from most debates, really. :)

It's going to come from education, as I've mentioned before several times.

And this education will just magically appear out of nowhere? No... you'll have to get people to recognize the need for it.

And how are you going to do that? Only by bringing up the past - getting the government to recognize what was done, and to commit themselves to doing something, like improving education, about its legacy.

That is - EXACTLY WHAT THE BLACK POLITICAL MOVEMENT IS DOING.

Now, admittedly, there is a catch here - no one will do anything until they recognize the seriousness of the issue, and few people with the kind of power necessary will recognize the seriousness of the issue until something is done about it. The catch has its root in the central difficulty of this whole issue - the fact that so many US Whites still don't take the views, perspectives, and interests of US Blacks seriously.

I'll admit that the solution I have been defending can't avoid this difficulty. Can yours?

Anyone else notice that this thread consist of four people in two seperate conversations

*feels left out*

That is - EXACTLY WHAT THE BLACK POLITICAL MOVEMENT IS DOING.
No, it's not. It hasn't made any notable strides in years. Years. Wow, they got some states to apologize for slavery. What will they do for an encore? Ask the government to pay each one of them reparations for slavery back in their tax returns?

the fact that so many US Whites still don't take the views, perspectives, and interests of US Blacks seriously.
Maybe their perspectives, views, and interests should traverse beyond demanding apologies and reparations for slavery.

No, it's not. It hasn't made any notable strides in years. Years.

Like, you know, pretty much every other cause on the Left except gay rights.

So?

Maybe their perspectives, views, and interests should traverse beyond demanding apologies and reparations for slavery.

Maybe you should pay an ounce of attention to why they demand those things.

Like, you know, pretty much every other cause on the Left except gay rights.
Let's see you list something.

Maybe you should pay an ounce of attention to why they demand those things.
Maybe you should pay attention at all. Demanding acknowledgment of current issues with racism is not the same as demanding apologies, reparations, or acknowledgment of slavery. But that isn't what they are doing. And the worse and most ironic part is that you agreed with my assessment of the black movement' views, perspectives, and interests revolving around slavery.

Let's see you list something.

Um, I just agreed with you.

And this education will just magically appear out of nowhere? No... you'll have to get people to recognize the need for it.

And how are you going to do that? Only by bringing up the past - getting the government to recognize what was done, and to commit themselves to doing something, like improving education, about its legacy.

That is - EXACTLY WHAT THE BLACK POLITICAL MOVEMENT IS DOING.

Now, admittedly, there is a catch here - no one will do anything until they recognize the seriousness of the issue, and few people with the kind of power necessary will recognize the seriousness of the issue until something is done about it. The catch has its root in the central difficulty of this whole issue - the fact that so many US Whites still don't take the views, perspectives, and interests of US Blacks seriously.

I'll admit that the solution I have been defending can't avoid this difficulty. Can yours?

Yes. Here's why. It comes down to what people like. A lot of people don't like the idea of apologizing for the past crimes that they personally had nothing to do with. On the other hand, a lot of people do like the idea of improving education. If the black community makes a concerted effort to say to the politicians and to our society, "Our primary concern at this time is improving the education of our country's children so that we can all have a brighter future." then not many are going to oppose them. If the black community and their allies live this statement out by getting even more involved in education, by helping integrate "Black history" into "History" and supporting pedagogical approaches rooted in critical thinking about current issues in light of past trends, then we're making progress.

No, we're not going to get today's racists to say, "By golly, we were wrong." But what we can do is make sure the next generation does recognize the problems of the present racism through pro-education measures.

Maybe you should pay attention at all. Demanding acknowledgment of current issues with racism is not the same as demanding apologies, reparations, or acknowledgment of slavery.

No, but the latter is a part of the former.

Until the legacy of slavery (and segregation, lynching, general economic subordination, and so on) is addressed, the current issues with racism will not be resolved.

And the worse and most ironic part is that you agreed with my assessment of the black movement' views, perspectives, and interests revolving around slavery.

No, actually I didn't. I disagreed with your assessment in the first post on this thread.

But this is a funny line of logic. You say something, it's objected to, you say it again, it's still objected to, and then you say it yet again, and because the objectors are tired of repeating themselves they say something else. Suddenly you have... agreement?

No. Only in your imagination.

Maybe you should pay attention at all. Demanding acknowledgment of current issues with racism is not the same as demanding apologies, reparations, or acknowledgment of slavery. But that isn't what they are doing. And the worse and most ironic part is that you agreed with my assessment of the black movement' views, perspectives, and interests revolving around slavery.Actually, they've been doing both--demanding apologies and working to further the cause of not only African-Americans but all minorities in the US in terms of wage discrimination, prosecutorial discrimination, housing discrimination and the like. But I guess because you didn't notice, it didn't happen? Give me a fucking break. :rolleyes:

No, but the latter is a part of the former.
No, it's not. They are mutually exclusive issues. Harping on slavery will only reinforce racism.

Actually, they've been dong both--demanding apologies and working to further the cause of not only African-Americans but all minorities in the US in terms of wage discrimination, prosecutorial discrimination, housing discrimination and the like. But I guess because you didn't notice, it didn't happen? Give me a fucking break.
I don't see you with actual examples.

Yes. Here's why. It comes down to what people like. A lot of people don't like the idea of apologizing for the past crimes that they personally had nothing to do with. On the other hand, a lot of people do like the idea of improving education. If the black community makes a concerted effort to say to the politicians and to our society, "Our primary concern at this time is improving the education of our country's children so that we can all have a brighter future." then not many are going to oppose them. If the black community and their allies live this statement out by getting even more involved in education, by helping integrate "Black history" into "History" and supporting pedagogical approaches rooted in critical thinking about current issues in light of past trends, then we're making progress.

No, we're not going to get today's racists to say, "By golly, we were wrong." But what we can do is make sure the next generation does recognize the problems of the present racism through pro-education measures.

Oh wake the fuck up. You've essentially said that the black community doesn't care about education, when the fact is that they care more than damn near any other ethnic group. They just get shit on because schools are generally funded by local property taxes, and black communities are generally poor. Why? I'll give you a hint--the last 140+ years of institutional racism hasn't helped the situation any.

*feels left out*
Sorry, you were being so quite the last few exchanges.

Oh wake the fuck up. You've essentially said that the black community doesn't care about education, when the fact is that they care more than damn near any other ethnic group. They just get shit on because schools are generally funded by local property taxes, and black communities are generally poor. Why? I'll give you a hint--the last 140+ years of institutional racism hasn't helped the situation any.
And I can assure you that self-inflicted weights arn't helping either. But sure, blame it on racism all you want, they couldn't possibly be doing anything to themselves that keep them below the poverty level. Just like the rednecks in the trailer parks arn't doing anything to themselves that keep them below the poverty line, it's all racism.. oh wait....

Yeah, schools are a load of shit, how they are run and funded and how that translates into education but that still doesn't translate to "omg racists!" You are just enforcing the viewpoint that the black movement runs to the racism cannons soon as some one questions how it is working, or rather, how it isn't.

A lot of people don't like the idea of apologizing for the past crimes that they personally had nothing to do with.

Right. Because it means they might actually have to do something about it.

Of course, they will, if the problem is going to be solved - however you slice it.

On the other hand, a lot of people do like the idea of improving education.

Improving education the way THEY want to improve education. It has nothing to do with acknowledging the legacy of racism.

If the black community makes a concerted effort to say to the politicians and to our society, "Our primary concern at this time is improving the education of our country's children so that we can all have a brighter future." then not many are going to oppose them.

Of course not that in and of itself... chiefly because it amounts to doing nothing.

If the black community and their allies live this statement out by getting even more involved in education, by helping integrate "Black history" into "History" and supporting pedagogical approaches rooted in critical thinking about current issues in light of past trends, then we're making progress.

But now you're talking about a kind of "education improvement" that many white people aren't going to feel comfortable about anymore.

Not only does it require admitting to themselves that white privilege exists, and that it's time to do something about it, but it requires admitting that these issues CANNOT be shelved into the past and forgotten - exactly what there is such intense resistance to on the subject of apologies, and exactly what the "get over it" crowd cannot stand.

I see no reason that these changes would get much better reception than the others that have been tried, and I still maintain that implementing them requires that first step of admitting there is a problem.

No, we're not going to get today's racists to say, "By golly, we were wrong."

Yeah, and today's racists are going to complain however you phrase things - and they hold more than enough power to interfere.

Harping on slavery will only reinforce racism.

Oh, right; I forgot.

The only way to deal with the legacy of the past is to ignore it... because everyone knows that doing nothing about a problem is always the best solution.

And I can assure you that self-inflicted weights arn't helping either. But sure, blame it on racism all you want, they couldn't possibly be doing anything to themselves that keep them below the poverty level. Just like the rednecks in the trailer parks arn't doing anything to themselves that keep them below the poverty line, it's all racism.. oh wait....

Yeah, schools are a load of shit, how they are run and funded and how that translates into education but that still doesn't translate to "omg racists!" You are just enforcing the viewpoint that the black movement runs to the racism cannons soon as some one questions how it is working, or rather, how it isn't.

You're in fucking denial--there's no other way to put it. You seem to want to dismiss racism completely as a cause, when frankly, it's the primary cause for the situation many African-Americans find themselves in today.

Right. Because it means they might actually have to do something about it.
Contradictory, how does apologizing translate into action? It doesn't and that is where you and the rest of the black movement are confusing yourselves.


Improving education the way THEY want to improve education. It has nothing to do with acknowledging the legacy of racism.
Yeah, it's not like once a month we have to study Martin Luther King Jr, or that slavery and its after-effects are taught in schools, or that we learn about the Civil Rights movement.


Of course not that in and of itself... chiefly because it amounts to doing nothing.
Wait, what?


But now you're talking about a kind of "education improvement" that many white people aren't going to feel comfortable about anymore.
You mean the kind that already exists? The only reason Black History Month exists now is to perpetuate itself. Martin Luther King Jr would be discussed when discussing Civil Rights, he was a figure head and as such has to be discussed.

Not only does it require admitting to themselves that white privilege exists, and that it's time to do something about it, but it requires admitting that these issues CANNOT be shelved into the past and forgotten - exactly what there is such intense resistance to on the subject of apologies, and exactly what the "get over it" crowd cannot stand.
What country do you live in that you are looking into the US with such scrutiny? Maybe you were homeschooled and unfamiliar with the public education system. The problem is, if "these issues," aka racism as racism, are shelved and forgotten, racism is forgotten and we can move on. Instead it is harped on and racists are made out of white, black, hispanic, and all other children alike. The effects of racism should be taught and analyzed, not that people were racist and its all the white peoples' fault.

I see no reason that these changes would get much better reception than the others that have been tried, and I still maintain that implementing them requires that first step of admitting there is a problem.
The real problem is that a problem doesn't exist because the problem you and the rest of the black movement are focusing on is slavery. It's over, done, the end.


Yeah, and today's racists are going to complain however you phrase things - and they hold more than enough power to interfere.
Then why bother with silly meaningless drivel like apologizing for slavery? I'm sure that will loosen up the racist brigade that you see waiting behind every corner.


The only way to deal with the legacy of the past is to ignore it... because everyone knows that doing nothing about a problem is always the best solution.
Yeah, that's not a false dilemma or anything. Harp on slavery or forget it completely. You people couldn't support my positions more if you tried.

You're in fucking denial--there's no other way to put it. You seem to want to dismiss racism completely as a cause, when frankly, it's the primary cause for the situation many African-Americans find themselves in today.
Second verse same as the first.
The reality exists that people not affected by racism find themselves in the same self-perpetuating cycle as poor black people. Yes, racism is a factor but you are wanting to discount point number 1 just so you can throw around racism. Take away racism and would they still be stuck in the same cycle where they are suscepted to the same bullshit school system as everyone else? Yes.


NOTE: African Americans my ass, I'm more Italian American than 90% of black people I know are African American.

Oh wake the fuck up. You've essentially said that the black community doesn't care about education, when the fact is that they care more than damn near any other ethnic group.

Oh please. Your false interpretations of my statements are about as useful as a screen door on a submarine.

I'm suggesting that the black community make education the primary focus. Not one of several big issues, not a serious issue. The issue. Because it is THE fucking issue.

I'm suggesting that instead of treating the symptoms of the problem with things like anti-discrimination laws, Affirmative Action, and government apologies, we mount a full assualt on the problems in our educational system that are allowing these problems to persist, that we treat the cause of the disease.

They just get shit on because schools are generally funded by local property taxes, and black communities are generally poor. Why? I'll give you a hint--the last 140+ years of institutional racism hasn't helped the situation any.

Yep. The inequality in education is the problem underlying other the inequalities in areas like employment and housing, and those inequalities result in a continued cultural and economic divide that perpetuate racism as well as a variety of other social ills. I'd love to see a new approach to funding education that does not involve basing the funding on property taxes. I'd love to see an education system that truly educates rather than just continuing the prejudices of the culture. And I'd love to see it so much that I'm going into the field of, guess what? Education.

So thanks for the hint. But I recommend you give it to someone else. I certainly don't need it.

Contradictory, how does apologizing translate into action?

It doesn't, necessarily... but it marks a first step. If we acknowledge a severe wrong AND we acknowledge that the responsibility for that wrong lies with the political and social institutions that led into the ones we presently benefit from, then we have begun to lay the groundwork for actually solving the legacy of that severe wrong.

Yeah, it's not like once a month we have to study Martin Luther King Jr, or that slavery and its after-effects are taught in schools, or that we learn about the Civil Rights movement.

If you're questioning the efficacy of using education to tackle racism, you should be arguing with HotRodia, not me... my point was merely that when people talk about "improving education," they usually don't mean incorporating more education about racism.

Wait, what?

Doing nothing about racism, I mean. It's not a threat, but only because it isn't much of anything. It's just saying, "Hey, we care about education just like you do!" So what?

You mean the kind that already exists?

Yeah, and Black History Month and the like already encounter opposition.

What country do you live in that you are looking into the US with such scrutiny? Maybe you were homeschooled and unfamiliar with the public education system.

No, I attended public school.

The problem is, if "these issues," aka racism, are shelved and forgotten, racism is forgotten and we can move on.

The Nazz is right; you are seriously in denial if you think that the only reason racism still exists is because anti-racists talk about it.

The real problem is that a problem doesn't exist because the problem you and the rest of the black movement are focusing on is slavery.

No, we aren't focusing on it exclusively, actually. As I've said repeatedly.

It's over, done, the end.

But its legacy remains. Ignoring problems and solving problems are miles apart.

Then why bother with silly meaningless drivel like apologizing for slavery?

Because racists objecting is not exactly my idea of a good reason to not do something.

that we treat the cause of the disease.

Inequity in education, and insufficient coverage of the relevant issues in education, are symptoms, too.

You won't be able to treat the causes until the symptoms are dealt with, quite simply because the kind of integration and equality necessary for the causes to disappear won't occur until the symptoms are resolved.

I thought you said you were done with threads like this Soheran. :p

Oh please. Your false interpretations of my statements are about as useful as a screen door on a submarine.

I'm suggesting that the black community make education the primary focus. Not one of several big issues, not a serious issue. The issue. Because it is THE fucking issue.

I'm suggesting that instead of treating the symptoms of the problem with things like anti-discrimination laws, Affirmative Action, and government apologies, we mount a full assualt on the problems in our educational system that are allowing these problems to persist, that we treat the cause of the disease.Let me clue you in on something--without anti-discrimination laws and to a lesser extent Affirmative Action (which has been reduced to largely a shadow and bugaboo for the right wing), the divide will get worse, not better. It's only the laws that are keeping schools in African-American communities as well-funded as they are, which is to say, barely functioning. Remove those meager protections, and you'll see a rapid defunding that will make white flight look like a minor demographic change. Same goes for laws like Title IX. Remove those and women will be defunded as well--not as quickly because women have more political power now than when that law was passed, but it will happen. Why? Because on a subconscious level, white males protect their own. I'm not talking about Klan quality racism here--I'm talking about the subtle, unconscious type that many people don't even recognize as racism. It's the kind that, honestly, you and Pantless are engaging in in this thread, even though you don't want to hear it. It's not malicious--it's unconscious--but it's there all the same.



Yep. The inequality in education is the problem underlying other the inequalities in areas like employment and housing, and those inequalities result in a continued cultural and economic divide that perpetuate racism as well as a variety of other social ills. I'd love to see a new approach to funding education that does not involve basing the funding on property taxes. I'd love to see an education system that truly educates rather than just continuing the prejudices of the culture. And I'd love to see it so much that I'm going into the field of, guess what? Education.

So thanks for the hint. But I recommend you give it to someone else. I certainly don't need it.
You need it more than you realize. I'm glad you're going into education--I hope you wind up as a good teacher, though having gone to school with and worked with and around teachers for the last ten years now, let me offer a piece of advice. Get a degree in a field, get a teaching job, and then get certified. Learn your subject matter first and the educational theory second, because you're going to learn more theory on the job than you ever will in the classroom, but if you don't have the base knowledge of the subject that the degree can get you, you'll probably never catch up.

I thought you said you were done with threads like this Soheran. :p

Yes, I believe I did... as a disclaimer heading a post when I dived right into one, coupled with a concession that I was violating my new rule already.

That should have been a hint. ;)

Shouldn't black political movements publicly seek apologies and reparations for the continuing social and economic marginalization of the black community that is permitted and perpetuated by the government, while accepting past atrocities as a part of black culture and history, as opposed to the other way around?

The average black individual is becoming more and more difficult to geneologically trace directly back to slaves, while the modern effects of racism on every black individual is undeniable, yet slavery is bemoaned as a grave injustice, while inner-city violence, police discrimination, and educational traps tend to be more often treated as a badge of honor.

I'm cutting out a bit since your real point lies in only part of the post.

Improving education the way THEY want to improve education. It has nothing to do with acknowledging the legacy of racism.

But now you're talking about a kind of "education improvement" that many white people aren't going to feel comfortable about anymore.

Not only does it require admitting to themselves that white privilege exists, and that it's time to do something about it, but it requires admitting that these issues CANNOT be shelved into the past and forgotten - exactly what there is such intense resistance to on the subject of apologies, and exactly what the "get over it" crowd cannot stand.

I see no reason that these changes would get much better reception than the others that have been tried, and I still maintain that implementing them requires that first step of admitting there is a problem.

Yeah, and today's racists are going to complain however you phrase things - and they hold more than enough power to interfere.

You are very correct to point out that we are battling the perceptions of those who don't see the problem as we do. But the great thing is that there are a lot of folks who see serious problems in the educational system. And we can take advantage of that.

When it comes to integrating "black history" into "history" we can say that we're 1) streamlining and integrating the curriculum 2) removing instances of special treatment. We can spin an issue just as well as they can, my friend.

But what about other things like focusing on critical thinking about current issues in light of past events? That's really not hard to sell either. We can give all sorts of example of the benefits of those kinds of educational strategies that have nothing to do with race.

The hard bit will be getting the funding issue fixed. But I think that's doable too. There are plenty of poor rural and largely white areas that need the disparity in educational funding reduced in addition to the mainly black areas. The inequality in educational funding is not just an issue for black folks, and I figure we can get support from plenty of racist folks if we let them know that their kids stand to gain from it as much as anyone's.

So in the end, we really don't have to get them to admit to the scope of racism. All we have to do is to get them to admit to the problems in education, and take steps to deal with those, and we're fighting racism much more effectively than we could by other, more obvious means.

Yes I said "Get over cancer!", STFU!

Shouldn't black political movements publicly seek apologies and reparations for the continuing social and economic marginalization of the black community that is permitted and perpetuated by the government

Yes.

Unfortunately, this will not get much traction until its historical basis is firmly acknowledged, because otherwise the nominal equality enjoyed today will be used to excuse the blaming of the victims and accusations of special treatment.

It's been said, very reasonably, that you cannot pretend that a person belonging to a group that has suffered a long history of brutal racism and a person belonging to a group that has not are going to be equal just because it says so in the law, but if that long history, or its legacy, isn't acknowledged, the point will be lost.

cancer ain't incurable - it just takes some fairly intense measures, and just wishing doesn't solve the problem. really, it's actually a pretty good comparison.

Cancer can be treated and put into remission, but it is an incurable disease. There is no cure for cancer, but there are many invasive treatments which can allow you to survive cancer.

Yes.

Unfortunately, this will not get much traction until its historical basis is firmly acknowledged, because otherwise the nominal equality enjoyed today will be used to excuse the blaming of the victims and accusations of special treatment.

It's been said, very reasonably, that you cannot pretend that a person belonging to a group that has suffered a long history of brutal racism and a person belonging to a group that has not are going to be equal just because it says so in the law, but if that long history, or its legacy, isn't acknowledged, the point will be lost.

As I have said, there should be a nod to black history to show just what they have gone through and how it has effected their culture and, more importantly, their role in our society.

However, when the emphasis is placed on the past, that is when I feel the point is lost, as it is not the issue. Even though it is extremely rare to meet a viewpoint that doesn't recognize the horror of slavery and the racism that followed, I don't think you can look at the present political climate and say that appeals to the past haven't undermined any movement towards positive government action to rectify the racial gap.

When calls are made for "slavery" reparations, detractors are not forced to focus on the role government should take to help the black community, rather they can stand in opposition to apologizing and repaying for enslaving someone who has never been enslaved.

When it comes to integrating "black history" into "history" we can say that we're 1) streamlining and integrating the curriculum 2) removing instances of special treatment. We can spin an issue just as well as they can, my friend.

I find that "spin" is often much less effective than it may seem. People will notice the changes.

You also forget that "we" do not have the power. Our proposals must be suggested, and we must justify them... and justifying more integration of black history into the curriculum will require more than just talking about "streamlining."

Furthermore, "removing instaces of special treatment" has been the justification for more integration of black history from the start... unsurprisingly, it's still treated as "special treatment" for Blacks. Just as the gay rights advocates can talk about "marriage equality" as much as they want without getting people to hear anything other than "gay marriage."

But what about other things like focusing on critical thinking about current issues in light of past events? That's really not hard to sell either. We can give all sorts of example of the benefits of those kinds of educational strategies that have nothing to do with race.

Sure, but in and of themselves they are very much insufficient to actually solving racism.

The hard bit will be getting the funding issue fixed. But I think that's doable too. There are plenty of poor rural and largely white areas that need the disparity in educational funding reduced in addition to the mainly black areas. The inequality in educational funding is not just an issue for black folks, and I figure we can get support from plenty of racist folks if we let them know that their kids stand to gain from it as much as anyone's.

The funding disparities are a major problem, but just one of many contributors to persistent racial and class inequality, and perhaps not even the crucial ones. Perhaps even more important as regards education is the comparative political powerlessness of the poor compared to the well-off; even if schools are equally-funded, differences in administrative accountability and simply in getting the government to pay attention to particular educational needs will continue to stratify the education system.

So in the end, we really don't have to get them to admit to the scope of racism. All we have to do is to get them to admit to the problems in education, and take steps to deal with those, and we're fighting racism much more effectively than we could by other, more obvious means.

Only education is only a part of the problem.

Cancer can be treated and put into remission, but it is an incurable disease. There is no cure for cancer, but there are many invasive treatments which can allow you to survive cancer.

Racism is likely a treatable but incurable disease of the human race, as well.

Racism is likely a treatable but incurable disease of the human race, as well.

And it's another one of those things that, like homophobia, seems less and less common the younger the age group, at least in terms of interracial relationships. More than half young people now say they see nothing wrong with or have participated in an interracial relationship, which is a hell of a difference from when I was high school 20 years ago. That sort of thing gives me hope for the future. But in the meantime, man there's a lot of shit to break down and rebuild.

when the emphasis is placed on the past

When does this happen?

I find that mostly the emphasis is only placed on the past when people say that black people TODAY shouldn't be having any problems... because, after all, segregation is over.

Even though it is extremely rare to meet a viewpoint that doesn't recognize the horror of slavery and the racism that followed, I don't think you can look at the present political climate and say that appeals to the past haven't undermined any movement towards positive government action to rectify the racial gap.

As I said to HotRodia, the problem here is that the apparent alternative is hardly better.

"Look at the history of racial subordination and brutality in this country - we need to do something about it!" brings about, as you say, the reply of "But it's done and over! Stop blaming me for something I didn't do!"

"Look at the present disparities between black and whites - we need to do something about it!" brings about, however, the reply of "But we have equality now; the disparities are your own fault! Stop asking for special treatment!"

When does this happen?

I find that mostly the emphasis is only placed on the past when people say that black people TODAY shouldn't be having any problems... because, after all, segregation is over.



As I said to HotRodia, the problem here is that the apparent alternative is hardly better.

"Look at the history of racial subordination and brutality in this country - we need to do something about it!" brings about, as you say, the reply of "But it's done and over! Stop blaming me for something I didn't do!"

"Look at the present disparities between black and whites - we need to do something about it!" brings about, however, the reply of "But we have equality now; the disparities are your own fault! Stop asking for special treatment!"
In the end, it all comes back to the same issue--the protection of white male privilege. It's sad that in this day and age, the single biggest advantage you can have is to be born white and male. It's not as big an advantage as it was 20 years ago, and certainly not as big as it was 50 years ago, but it's still a major advantage. And as I said to Hotrodia, that's not to say that most people are virulent racists--but most people do act unconsciously racist at times. I still do it on occasion, and I'm really aware and focused on not doing it.

When does this happen?

I find that mostly the emphasis is only placed on the past when people say that black people TODAY shouldn't be having any problems... because, after all, segregation is over.

It happens when government is called upon to apologize or make reparations for slavery. Isn't that part of the thread, the discussion of whether government should apologize for slavery?

"Look at the history of racial subordination and brutality in this country - we need to do something about it!" brings about, as you say, the reply of "But it's done and over! Stop blaming me for something I didn't do!"

And it is a generally accepted norm that a person should not be punished or forced to make payment for something he/she did not do.

"Look at the present disparities between black and whites - we need to do something about it!" brings about, however, the reply of "But we have equality now; the disparities are your own fault! Stop asking for special treatment!"

This on the other hand, is easily countered by a wealth of statistics and even common knowledge.

And it's another one of those things that, like homophobia, seems less and less common the younger the age group, at least in terms of interracial relationships. More than half young people now say they see nothing wrong with or have participated in an interracial relationship, which is a hell of a difference from when I was high school 20 years ago. That sort of thing gives me hope for the future. But in the meantime, man there's a lot of shit to break down and rebuild.

There are some depressing signs that it is tied into our biology as well as our environment, but I do take some comfort in the advancement some societies have made.

It happens when government is called upon to apologize or make reparations for slavery.

No one would care all that much about slavery if its legacy didn't linger. The past is only brought in because it's relevant to the present.

And it is a generally accepted norm that a person should not be punished or forced to make payment for something he/she did not do.

Perhaps, but this applies just as much to any other solution.

This on the other hand, is easily countered by a wealth of statistics and even common knowledge.

Yes, and one of the things that "wealth of statistics", as well as common sense and common knowledge, supports is that the problem is deeply rooted in history. Yet you still don't see people embracing reparations for slavery.

No one would care all that much about slavery if its legacy didn't linger. The past is only brought in because it's relevant to the present.

It is not well portrayed in that manner though. Slavery is generally portrayed as the great wrong that needs to be righted, not as evidence as an ongoing wrong.

Perhaps, but this applies just as much to any other solution.

Of course, but it exploits an alternative angle, namely the generally accepted norm that someone should not face difficulties for purely arbitrary qualities.

To deny the argument, the opponent must argue that either blacks as a whole deserve their status, or that people do not deserve fair treatment from society.

Very few are going to make either of those arguments.

Yes, and one of the things that "wealth of statistics", as well as common sense and common knowledge, supports is that the problem is deeply rooted in history. Yet you still don't see people embracing reparations for slavery.

And it should be treated as supporting evidence, not the central thesis, for black political advancement.

It is not well portrayed in that manner though. Slavery is generally portrayed as the great wrong that needs to be righted, not as evidence as an ongoing wrong.

Actually, the reparations advocates almost always tend to focus on its PRESENT effects, often in terms of returning wealth stolen during slavery.

Of course, but it exploits an alternative angle, namely the generally accepted norm that someone should not face difficulties for purely arbitrary qualities.

The problem is that without the historical background, it is much easier to claim that the culprit is something other than "purely arbitrary" qualities.

And yes, that claim is made all the time.

The way I see it: if you continue to focus on the causes of the problem too much, people will ignore you. If you put all that energy into showing what inequalities and injustices are happening now, the problem seems less remote and more important. Sometimes, the cause isn't nearly as important as the effect. I'm not saying that we should ignore it. I just think that apologies for the event should wait until the problem doesn't exist nearly as bad as it does.

It's like this. If a lady drops a hundred dollar bill and I pick it up and try to give it back, chasing her down in the process, she's going to think I'm a stalker. If I tell her why I was chasing her, I might not be arrested for stalking. If you don't show WHY remembering slavery is important, people will want to forget that painful chapter because it IS painful. If you show WHY slavery is important to remember, then people will want to remember it. The first step is to put the slavery on the back burner and focus more on FIXING the problem it left. If my roof caves in, I don't want to hear about the cracks until my roof is rebuilt stronger than ever.

If my roof caves in, I don't want to hear about the cracks until my roof is rebuilt stronger than ever.

And it will never be rebuilt until you acknowledge that it's caved in.

Wouldn't it be absurd to propose that the best way to get your roof rebuilt would be to pretend it never caved in? Or to pretend that, while the cave in was awful, it isn't really a problem any more, and certainly it isn't something we should do anything about?

Let me clue you in on something--without anti-discrimination laws and to a lesser extent Affirmative Action (which has been reduced to largely a shadow and bugaboo for the right wing), the divide will get worse, not better. It's only the laws that are keeping schools in African-American communities as well-funded as they are, which is to say, barely functioning. Remove those meager protections, and you'll see a rapid defunding that will make white flight look like a minor demographic change. Same goes for laws like Title IX. Remove those and women will be defunded as well--not as quickly because women have more political power now than when that law was passed, but it will happen. Why? Because on a subconscious level, white males protect their own.

Please look again at what I'm advocating with regard to changing educational funding, and look at what you're saying. You're saying that we have anti-discrimination laws in place, that we have a much-reduced affirmative action in place, and that those sorts of laws are what's keeping the schools from dying completely, that they're barely hanging on. Well sure. Isn't that the problem? We have these things in place, but their help is just barely enough to keep the schools afloat, and don't really make any systematic and substantive change of the kind needed. They're a worn patch on a very large hole in the garment of our educational system. I'm saying we need to get a new kind of garment, one that won't wear and will protect people from injustice by perpetuating healthy thinking. I want a hell of a lot more than a worn patch on a system that's falling apart to fight these problems with. I suspect you do too.

I'm not talking about Klan quality racism here--I'm talking about the subtle, unconscious type that many people don't even recognize as racism. It's the kind that, honestly, you and Pantless are engaging in in this thread, even though you don't want to hear it. It's not malicious--it's unconscious--but it's there all the same.

Do you just like to assume that my views on this issue have anything to do with a subconscious desire to protect "my own"? Of assuming that I think there is even a "my own" to protect? You could not possibly be farther from the truth. It's a sad measure of how bad the problem of racism has gotten that folks would assume someone is a racist just because they favor a different approach to fighting it.

You need it more than you realize. I'm glad you're going into education--I hope you wind up as a good teacher, though having gone to school with and worked with and around teachers for the last ten years now, let me offer a piece of advice. Get a degree in a field, get a teaching job, and then get certified. Learn your subject matter first and the educational theory second, because you're going to learn more theory on the job than you ever will in the classroom, but if you don't have the base knowledge of the subject that the degree can get you, you'll probably never catch up.

Got that covered as well. But thanks.

Inequity in education, and insufficient coverage of the relevant issues in education, are symptoms, too.

You won't be able to treat the causes until the symptoms are dealt with, quite simply because the kind of integration and equality necessary for the causes to disappear won't occur until the symptoms are resolved.

Yes. And good education is the only way to treat the cause, which is the racist mentality that is perpetuated by social and cultural institutions. The only way to fight that kind of racism is to integrate with the central institution, to make the institution that keeps perpetuating and allowing racism into a tool for eliminating it by promoting healthy ways of thinking. Because, at its core, racism is an unhealthy way of thinking. It can only be treated with education that removes unhealthy forms of thought and encourages healthy forms of thought. The symptoms disappear because the roots of the disease are being attacked. You can attack the other symptoms all you want, but unless you attack the problems in education, your primary symptom is just going to keep going and going, resulting in at least some level of secondary symptoms even if you manage to diminish it somewhat.

<snipped for brevity>

Sorry Soheran, I think I'm going to have to call it a night. Hopefully I can finish this response later (if the thread is still alive when I get back from my weekend travels and revels). It's been a pleasure as always. :)

And it will never be rebuilt until you acknowledge that it's caved in.

Wouldn't it be absurd to propose that the best way to get your roof rebuilt would be to pretend it never caved in? Or to pretend that, while the cave in was awful, it isn't really a problem any more, and certainly it isn't something we should do anything about?

I know the roof caved in. I'm just saying that we should fix CURRENT injustices before we fix past injustices. Just acknowledging that many blacks are in poverty isn't going to lift them out of it. The cause of the problem is useful in preventing it from happening again. Obviously, prevention isn't a cure. You can't keep a person out of poverty when that person is already in poverty. You can only keep someone out of poverty when they are out of poverty. You can and should help that person OUT of poverty.

It's like getting in a bad bicycle accident. Preventing it from happening is impossible when it already happened. You can keep it from happening AGAIN, but that should wait until after the bleeding stops. There's going to be scarring, but that's not as bad as bleeding. Same thing with the current problems. Because they already happened, you can't stop them from happening. The problems, the bleeding if you will, won't stop if you put a helmet, the prevention, on. You can stop the problems, the bleeding. You can reverse most of the effects. Sure, there's scarring, but that shouldn't keep the problem from being as close to solved as possible.

I know the roof caved in. I'm just saying that we should fix CURRENT injustices before we fix past injustices.

Yeah... and no one disagrees with you.

The point of reparations, apologies, affirmative action, and so on is to repair the PRESENT injustices caused by past and present racism.

Since many present injustices have their roots in the past, the past must necessarily be brought up so as to deal with them fully.

Because, at its core, racism is an unhealthy way of thinking. It can only be treated with education that removes unhealthy forms of thought and encourages healthy forms of thought.

I don't see how education would be very good at countering unconscious racism.

This is by a wide margin the most intelligent debate I've seen on NS in quite a while.

I don't see how education would be very good at countering unconscious racism.

I'd say unconscious racism comes from ignorance - if you've never met a black person, you most probably have a skewed perception of them based on what you've seen in the movies.
Prejudice is, as the word implies, pre-judging. It is based on lack of knowledge.
Once you start hanging out with people of a different race to yourself, you quickly get rid of your own prejudices.

Trying achieve this in school could be tricky, given that you can't just hire some black kids, stick a few in each class and leave everyone to figure it out on their own.
However, you can address the problem from another direction:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1132480
If everyone had this for just one week in their school life, the world would most probably be a better place.

In case you didn't watch the Today Show this morning, you missed a simultaneous interview of Ann Coulter.....

That's where I stopped reading.

Blacks should get over slavery, Jews should get over the Holocaust, Chinese should get over the Rape of Nanking, Japanese should get over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Americans should get over 9/11, Iraqis should get over being invaded and occupied, Palestinians should get over being bombed, Israelis should get over being terrorist-attacked, Native Americans should get over genocide, I should get over my headache, everyone should get over what happened 17 seconds or more ago. Right now is all that counts and history is meaningless!

*snip* history is meaningless!

you sure you dont have a migraine? :p

you sure you dont have a migraine? :p

Yeah... I get those and this is not one. This is just me having gotten no sleep, very little food, and a bottle of vodka from which I am still recovering.

Bad enough. :)

Actually, the reparations advocates almost always tend to focus on its PRESENT effects, often in terms of returning wealth stolen during slavery.

Of course they focus on its present effects, I doubt they are actually going to fix the slavery of the past.

What I am arguing though, is that not only is the average black man becoming harder and harder to actually trace back to slavery, it is difficult to trace the average non-black man to slave holders.

It is hard to make the argument that one is returning stolen wealth when you cannot say who was stolen from, who did the stealing, and what was stolen in relation to the present society.

The problem is that without the historical background, it is much easier to claim that the culprit is something other than "purely arbitrary" qualities.

And yes, that claim is made all the time.

I certainly agree on this point.

Thing is though that slavery is not dead.

Thing is though that slavery is not dead.

You're absolutely right (http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0309/feature1/). It's not even dead in the US.

In case you didn't watch the Today Show this morning, you missed a simultaneous interview of Ann Coulter and Michael Dyson.

They were being interviewed about race and whether or not Obama could be elected president. Eventually the discussion gets to where states have been apologizing for slavery, and especially Virginia where Hargrove said black people "should get over" slavery - which is where the douchebaggery starts.

After that statement being brought up, Dyson gets indignant and retorts "[...] saying get over slavery, its like saying get over cancer, get over the disease you have [...]" Whoah, hold the fuck up! Did he just say get over cancer? An incurable disease? Did he just say getting over slavery is like getting over cancer?

This is the problem with the general black political movement - it is living in the past and refusing to move forward. It focuses on slavery and blames slavery for everything - not post-civil war racism, not current personal racism, but slavery. As long as the black political movement refuses to move itself forward, it will never get anywhere it wants to be.

To paraphrase a driving guide for being in an emergency driving situation: "look where you want to go, not where you are going or where you have been, otherwise you will end up getting in a crash." The black movement is looking straight ahead while keeping one eye in the rear view mirror, it is not aiming for a reduction of racism in the general populace but for reparations of past events and current indignations. As long as the black political movement focuses itself on gaining reparations as a supposed stepping stone for moving on instead of just moving on, the movement will still be behind where it was relatively when Dr. King was alive.

Sorry. I can't get on board with a complaint about douchebaggery when it is being applied to the person who isn't Anne Coulter. Yes it's a bad analogy, but I feel confident in predicting that if I were to listen to the interview I'd be able to point out something Coulter said that was genuinly evil, and certainly guilty of douchebaggery to a far greater degree than anyone else in the room.

And I usually do keep a sense of perspective on these things. I watched a similar multi-way interview about gay rights and heard a Baptist minister try to explain that being a non-practicing homosexual was like being a non-practicing murderer. While disagreeing with him completly I still recognized that what he meant was not that murder and homosexuality were morally equivalent, but that, by his philosophy, a homosexual who does not have sex with members of his/her own gender isn't, in any meaningful sense, homosexual. Just like if you don't kill someone, you're not a murderer. Or if you never drank alcohol you're not an alcoholic.

This guy wasn't saying that racism is leading to the inexorable premature death of every black person in the country. And those who recover from cancer usually do get over it. However it is callous and stupid to tell a race of people to "get over" opression that continues to this day, and it is stupid to tell people to "get over" their disease which probably has lingering health consequenses even if it has gone into remission.

Also, Virginia apologizing should be done as much to recognize Virginia's spiritual growth as to make black Virginians feel better. If you injure another and the only reason you apologize is to try to prevent them from taking revenge, you're an asshole. You're supposed to apologize because you recognize that you have done wrong to another. Virginia did that, and recognizes it. Hargrove doesn't think Virginia should apologize because deep down, he doesn't believe that oppressing non-whites is a bad thing.

I don't see how education would be very good at countering unconscious racism.

Yet making people apologize helps counter it? Genius!

That's where I stopped reading.
Then you fucking failed and shouldn't have bothered posting. Now go slam your hand in a car door.

Blacks should get over slavery, Jews should get over the Holocaust, Chinese should get over the Rape of Nanking, Japanese should get over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Americans should get over 9/11, Iraqis should get over being invaded and occupied, Palestinians should get over being bombed, Israelis should get over being terrorist-attacked, Native Americans should get over genocide, I should get over my headache, everyone should get over what happened 17 seconds or more ago. Right now is all that counts and history is meaningless!
Americans should get over 9/11. Now that I think about it, Americans use 9/11 just like blacks use slavery, it must be an American condition to take past bad actions and use them to justify whatever future actions you want to take.
I don't want to invade Iraq. 9/11! I don't want to apologize for slavery. Slavery! Racist!
I give it 50 years before the descendants of those in the Japanese internment camps become completely ingrained in American society and start demanding acknowledgment and reparations for it.


Yeah, and Black History Month and the like already encounter opposition.
"OMG, you oppose Black History Month? You want to try and forget slavery! Slavery! Racist!!"
No, the institution of a Black History Month only exists because it already exists. Remove it and people scream racist, yet what purpose does it serve? It sits there and forces educators to rework their curriculum to put information about black people all in one month instead of discussing them when they would normally be encountered thus taking black people out of normal discussion and making it appear like Black History Month is needed.


While disagreeing with him completly I still recognized that what he meant was not that murder and homosexuality were morally equivalent, but that, by his philosophy, a homosexual who does not have sex with members of his/her own gender isn't, in any meaningful sense, homosexual.
That analogy is totally valid, but he focused on the disease thing. "get over cancer, get over the disease you have." Is he saying it is impossible to get over slavery? Likely, but slavery is not a disease still. People can get over slavery, but the black movement has it so ingrained that they can do nothing but focus on it. Without slavery, they feel they have no way or reason to validly make people pay attention to them. OMG, slavery, racist!

However it is callous and stupid to tell a race of people to "get over" opression that continues to this day,
You just made my point. Slavery of blacks in America does not continue to this day. Slavery and racism are not the same thing and equating the two is a logical fallacy. He was not told to get over racism, he was told to get over slavery. Equating the two proves my point.

f you injure another and the only reason you apologize is to try to prevent them from taking revenge, you're an asshole. You're supposed to apologize because you recognize that you have done wrong to another. Virginia did that, and recognizes it.
Meaningless apologies 200 years after-the-fact of Virginia taking actions to abolish and oppose slavery are just going to piss people off.

You're absolutely right (http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0309/feature1/). It's not even dead in the US.

Yeah. Its a disgusting trade.

I love this "it's all in the past!" attitude. There are times when I need to apologize and I really try to think of some way out of it. Usually it is the times when I really know, deep down, that I fucked up in some really lousy and embarrassing way. Apologizing includes admitting that I did something really lousy, and I would much rather not have to face the crappy stuff I've done in the past.

The government of the United States, and the state-level governments, legally treated black people as sub-humans for HUNDREDS OF YEARS. If the idea of saying "I'm sorry" for that is too much for you, then you need to grow the hell up.

Hell, I'm female, so I belong to a demographic that got the vote even LATER than black people, and I'M willing to apologize for slavery. I didn't own any slaves. I don't even think my family was in this country until after the Civil War. But I'm willing to say "Sorry" because I am sorry that it ever happened. I'm ashamed of that blot on my nation's history, and I think it's damn important to NEVER forget it happened, and NEVER push it aside as being "just in the past." Those who forget history, or trivialize it, are doomed to repeat it.

You're absolutely right (http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0309/feature1/). It's not even dead in the US.

You'll have to forgive me, but as a United States citizen I fail to see where slavery still exists here, particularly with that whole amendment thing.

You'll have to forgive me, but as a United States citizen I fail to see where slavery still exists here, particularly with that whole amendment thing.
As a United States citizen, you have the right to actually read that link before you respond.

It might help you understand what they are talking about.

The government of the United States, and the state-level governments, legally treated black people as sub-humans for HUNDREDS OF YEARS. If the idea of saying "I'm sorry" for that is too much for you, then you need to grow the hell up.
No, the idea of doing that is pointless because it was forced on them. Have you ever felt sorry when forced to apologize? Really? Liar. You just ended up pissed off at the person forcing you.

Hell, I'm female, so I belong to a demographic that got the vote even LATER than black people, and I'M willing to apologize for slavery. I didn't own any slaves. I don't even think my family was in this country until after the Civil War. But I'm willing to say "Sorry" because I am sorry that it ever happened.
Then you are exasperating the problem. Apologizing for something you had no hand in is just empowering them and affirming the idea that if they keep harping on slavery, they can get whatever they want, even from people that had nothing to do with slavery.

I'm ashamed of that blot on my nation's history, and I think it's damn important to NEVER forget it happened, and NEVER push it aside as being "just in the past." Those who forget history, or trivialize it, are doomed to repeat it.
It's everyone's favorite false dilemma! You have to give in to the black movement's obsessment with slavery or you are trying to forget it happened! No, wrong. Slavery should continue to be taught about in schools, so should its after-effects and the institutionalized racism that continued. But slavery is fucking over, there is no enslavement of black people in America and hasn't been for nearly two centuries. Obsessing over slavery as opposed to current racism isn't going to fix current levels of racism, or even lessen them. Not to mention, while they continue to obsess over slavery, they expect everyone else to move forward while they themselves stay in the past and don't keep up.


EDIT: In fact, it is the black movements harping that pushes the Women's Rights Movement and Japanese Internment into the shadows.

I love this "it's all in the past!" attitude. There are times when I need to apologize and I really try to think of some way out of it. Usually it is the times when I really know, deep down, that I fucked up in some really lousy and embarrassing way. Apologizing includes admitting that I did something really lousy, and I would much rather not have to face the crappy stuff I've done in the past.

The government of the United States, and the state-level governments, legally treated black people as sub-humans for HUNDREDS OF YEARS. If the idea of saying "I'm sorry" for that is too much for you, then you need to grow the hell up.

Hell, I'm female, so I belong to a demographic that got the vote even LATER than black people, and I'M willing to apologize for slavery. I didn't own any slaves. I don't even think my family was in this country until after the Civil War. But I'm willing to say "Sorry" because I am sorry that it ever happened. I'm ashamed of that blot on my nation's history, and I think it's damn important to NEVER forget it happened, and NEVER push it aside as being "just in the past." Those who forget history, or trivialize it, are doomed to repeat it.

People change, times change. What was once an acceptable practice, even for thousands of years, today is the foundation for a terrific civil rights statement. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that something happened in the past, acknowledging that it happened and that it will, for all extents and purposes, remain in the past. There should be no need to apologize, however, for, through no fault of anyone alive today, the contextually accepted actions of unapologetic individuals. Doing so belabours the point, prolonging and immortalizing, to the point of veneration, a part of the past that is not applicable today. Should we forget? No. Should we move on? Yes.

As a United States citizen, you have the right to actually read that link before you respond.

It might help you understand what they are talking about.

I did. And I saw no evidence of slaves in the US. Would you care to enlighten me? Because the article specifically refers to the slave trade, which undoubtedly exists, but I still see no slaves in the United States.

No, the idea of doing that is pointless because it was forced on them. Have you ever felt sorry when forced to apologize? Really? Liar. You just ended up pissed off at the person forcing you.

So what? Hate to break it to you, but it's not always about your feelings. If you fuck up, part of the reason you apologize is because you recognize that the person who has been wronged deserves a little damn respect.

If you're only apologizing because it makes YOU feel good, then what the fuck are your apologies worth?


Then you are exasperating the problem. Apologizing for something you had no hand in is just empowering them and affirming the idea that if they keep harping on slavery, they can get whatever they want, even from people that had nothing to do with slavery.

"Whatever they want"? They want a damn apology, not my last beer, for crying out loud. It's called the slippery-slope falacy for a reason, you know. Asking for an apology when you have been wronged does not constitute "obsessing" over something. It is a perfectly reasonable and fair-minded expectation. There's no statute of limitations on good manners.


It's everyone's favorite false dilemma! You have to give in to the black movement's obsessment with slavery or you are trying to forget it happened!

Or you could just realize that remembering something doesn't equate to "obsessing" over it. Talk about creating a false "dilemma."


No, wrong. Slavery should continue to be taught about in schools, so should its after-effects and the institutionalized racism that continued. But slavery is fucking over, there is no enslavement of black people in America and hasn't been for nearly two centuries.

It's actually not even 150 years yet. Anyhow, if it was so long ago, then why are you so damn upset about it? If it's not a big deal to you, then why not just chill out and accept that some people are still hurting about it. If YOU don't care, that's great for you...then you can offer comfort to the people who do care, and it's no loss for you. If nothing else, you will help them feel better and be more willing to work toward what you consider real progress.


Obsessing over slavery as opposed to current racism isn't going to fix current levels of racism, or even lessen them. Not to mention, while they continue to obsess over slavery, they expect everyone else to move forward while they refuse to better themselves.
I'm wondering if you really intend to come off as racist as you do. You seem well-meaning, but honestly...you are really coming across as a condescending, crotchety suburban honky who doesn't like these black kids and their hip-hop music.

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster, and if you stare long into an abyss, the abyss also stares into you."

very relevant to this thread i thought

reading through it, in almost everyones post there is evidence they have turned into what they are fighting against

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster, and if you stare long into an abyss, the abyss also stares into you."

very relevant to this thread i thought

reading through it, in almost everyones post there is evidence they have turned into what they are fighting against

I've got to say, I've thought about that for a minute and I cant see how it applies to either side. Care to explain?

I've got to say, I've thought about that for a minute and I cant see how it applies to either side. Care to explain?

look closely and you should see it, people getting angry and swearin where they normally wouldn't, no facts being put into play at all, just people putting their opinion on what's goin on with racism and slavery and fighting over it

generally it's an emotional topic so people refuse to see facts the way they normally would, simply because they might suggest the intolerable, that they are wrong, on a topic that their parents, the media, textbooks and teachers so convinced them one way or the other that they were right on

admittedly alot of people aren't fallin for the trap, but just give it time

I've got to say, I've thought about that for a minute and I cant see how it applies to either side. Care to explain?
Yeah, I don't get what he's trying to say, either. I'm just seeing the same old "A pox on both their houses" attitude that some people try to adopt so they can feel aloof.

I think most people on this thread are doing an excellent job of holding an intelligent conversation on a tough subject.

look closely and you should see it, people getting angry and swearin where they normally wouldn't,

Just FYI, a lot of us around here use curse words like commas, even when we're in the best of moods. :D


no facts being put into play at all, just people putting their opinion on what's goin on with racism and slavery and fighting over it

*GASP* A General Forum thread in which people share opinions about stuff??!?!


generally it's an emotional topic so people refuse to see facts the way they normally would, simply because they might suggest the intolerable, that they are wrong, on a topic that their parents, the media, textbooks and teachers so convinced them one way or the other that they were right on
Every thread, and every discussion, includes some element of that. It's nothing new, and it's certainly not unique to this thread. I think this thread actually is better than average when it comes to that stuff.

Yeah, I don't get what he's trying to say, either. I'm just seeing the same old "A pox on both their houses" attitude that some people try to adopt so they can feel aloof.

I think most people on this thread are doing an excellent job of holding an intelligent conversation on a tough subject.

and i see a, "whispering into another persons ear so the hated one can hear and feel outnumbered" scare tactic being used, please just let me debate this with him the way he started it off, nice and friendly.

oh and i was using "a pox on all houses" attitude, as i am equally guilty of the same thing, thats why i refuse to debate something i know i will be biased over

You'll have to forgive me, but as a United States citizen I fail to see where slavery still exists here, particularly with that whole amendment thing.
Here's a clue. The amendment made it illegal. It didn't make it vanish. Just as marijuana use is illegal (except in rare cases) and yet exists all over the damn place.


Sweet freaking Christ why do I have to spell this kind of shit out?

1.Just FYI, a lot of us around here use curse words like commas, even when we're in the best of moods. :D


2.*GASP* A General Forum thread in which people share opinions about stuff??!?!


Every thread, and every discussion, includes some element of that. It's nothing new, and it's certainly not unique to this thread. I think this thread actually is better than average when it comes to that stuff.

1. yes because what i said happens alot

2. erm share opinions? dont see that happenin on this thread at all, specially not by you, that's called tryin to force opinions down peoples throats

3. i never said it was new... maybe it is better i dunno

I did. And I saw no evidence of slaves in the US. Would you care to enlighten me? Because the article specifically refers to the slave trade, which undoubtedly exists, but I still see no slaves in the United States.

Well, the whole article wasn't quoted at the link--that was a teaser--but the original NG article did show examples of slavery in the US, rare, but still happening, generally on remote agricultural estates.

So what? Hate to break it to you, but it's not always about your feelings. If you fuck up, part of the reason you apologize is because you recognize that the person who has been wronged deserves a little damn respect.

If you're only apologizing because it makes YOU feel good, then what the fuck are your apologies worth?
Nice try, go again. Why apologize if your not sorry? I'm not sorry for slavery because it was too far in the past, generations. I'm sorry for the continued racism of today, on both sides, but I'm still not going to apologize for it because I'm not involved.

Asking for an apology when you have been wronged does not constitute "obsessing" over something.
Point, if slavery wasn't sitting around in the background, ready to be invoked, whenever they want something done.


Or you could just realize that remembering something doesn't equate to "obsessing" over it. Talk about creating a false "dilemma."
Just remembering? The belief that all racism today is a result of slavery has been stated in this thread. Sounds like obsessment to me: "You hate black people because your relatives enslaved my people. I want an apology too." No, racism today exists because of lack of education and a continued obsession with racism, as well as "anti-racism" moves. Affirmative action? Creating racists right and left. Poor black neighborhoods? Creating racism. Slavery? Not creating racism. Not at fault for racism.


Anyhow, if it was so long ago, then why are you so damn upset about it?
Oh look, another fallacy for you. I'm not upset about slavery, I'm upset about the continued focus on slavery by the black political movement.

If it's not a big deal to you, then why not just chill out and accept that some people are still hurting about it.
Then some people need to get the fuck over it. It has turned into a blood feud. Death to Mercutio, death to Tybalt! There is no reason to focus on slavery, there needs to be a focus on the current causes of racism.


I'm wondering if you really intend to come off as racist as you do. You seem well-meaning, but honestly...you are really coming across as a condescending, crotchety suburban honky who doesn't like these black kids and their hip-hop music.
No, I don't like "black kids and their hip-hop music" because they are furthering the problem. The mainstream hip hop culture is racist, misogynist, and whatever the -ist is for excessive greed and thusly entirely counter productive. The black kids, as a result of poor education at home and school which is not quite their fault, are placing themselves into the self-perpetuating racist, poor black people cycle. The same problem facing poor white trash, but they can't blame their troubles on racism now can they?

Nice try, go again. Why apologize if your not sorry? I'm not sorry for slavery because it was too far in the past, generations. I'm sorry for the continued racism of today, on both sides, but I'm still not going to apologize for it because I'm not involved.

Sometimes you apologize because it's the right thing to do, even if you don't personally feel sorry.

But honestly, I don't see why you wouldn't be sorry about slavery. I kind of thought that most people were sorry that slavery happened. What does it cost you to say as much?


Point, if slavery wasn't sitting around in the background, ready to be invoked, whenever they want something done.

Who is this "they" you keep referring to?

Honestly, I've worked with black civil rights groups, with minority activist organizations, and with plenty of black individuals, and I've never met anybody who whined about slavery as much as you have in this thread. Maybe I'm just not hanging out with the same people as you?

Most black activists know that slavery is a very important chapter of history, and that the fallout from the centuries of slavery is still part of our lives today. This makes slavery relevant to modern struggles and modern topics, so it sometimes becomes a part of modern discussions and efforts. But I've never personally seen anybody bring up slavery as some kind of bargaining chip or blackmail the way you seem to be describing.


Just remembering? The belief that all racism today is a result of slavery has been stated in this thread.

Meh. There are always a few loud wackos who say stupid things. Most people around here aren't saying anything of the sort. Quit giving the wackos so much attention.


Sounds like obsessment to me: "You hate black people because your relatives enslaved my people. I want an apology too." No, racism today exists because of lack of education and a continued obsession with racism, as well as "anti-racism" moves.

For as long as there have been movements fighting the status quo and struggling for equality, there have been people insisting that the activists are being too loud or too annoying or are obsessing over nothing. For as long as black people have been fighting for equality, there have been white people insisting that they need to be nicer and quieter and quit obsessing over such negative things.

Boo hoo hoo.

Every single measure of racial equality in my country has had to be fought for. Nobody "gave" black people their freedom. Nobody "gave" them equal rights. They fought long and hard for those rights. They had to "obsess" about equality to gain every tiny advancement. Countless people have dedicated their entire lives to this struggle, and it STILL hasn't been enough to achieve the final goal of real equality.

I, personally, think we'd all be much better off if more people "obsessed" about this sort of thing, instead of whining about something as small as an apology. If getting a simple "I'm sorry" is this big a production, then that shows just how far we've still got to go.


Affirmative action? Creating racists right and left. Poor black neighborhoods? Creating racism. Slavery? Not creating racism. Not at fault for racism.

Quit blaming the victims.

I have lived around affirmative action and attended schools where affirmative action is enforced. I have lived in poor black neighborhoods. I'm not racist. If somebody else tries to use that shit as an excuse for their racism, then they're a coward as well as a loser.


Oh look, another fallacy for you. I'm not upset about slavery, I'm upset about the continued focus on slavery by the black political movement.

Gosh, imagine that. Black political leaders continue to discuss the centuries-long enslavement of non-whites in this country. Isn't that nutty. You know, I've also noticed that Jewish leaders sometimes refer to something called the Holocaust. Pfft. Living in the past, I say! Let bygones be bygones!


Then some people need to get the fuck over it. It has turned into a blood feud. Death to Mercutio, death to Tybalt! There is no reason to focus on slavery, there needs to be a focus on the current causes of racism.

If you want to end the feud, and if you really think that you're so far above it, then why don't YOU take the highground and end it? You seem to forget that YOU are one of the feuding sides. I know, I know, you really really think that those other guys are wrong, and you're gonna stick to your guns come hell or high water. Well, you're no different than "they" are, in that respect.


No, I don't like "black kids and their hip-hop music" because they are furthering the problem.

Okie dokie then.


The mainstream hip hop culture is racist, misogynist, and whatever the -ist is for excessive greed and thusly entirely counter productive. The black kids, as a result of poor education at home and school which is not quite their fault, are placing themselves into the self-perpetuating racist, poor black people cycle. The same problem facing poor white trash, but they can't blame their troubles on racism now can they?
Meh. All mainstream pop culture right now is racist, misogynist, consumerist, and all that crap. Hip-hop is no more so than rock or pop or country-western music. The fact that hip-hop gets singled out is very telling.

I'm beginning to think that slavery is not a cause of racism like so many insist but one of the results of racism. I'm also beginning to think that racism is alot more complex than many people will admit. Racism against minorities has existed ever since minorities existed. No, minorities are not defined by their skin color. If Hispanics soon outnumber white people, hispanics will soon not be a minority. Slavery did not cause racism. Racism created slavery. Well, this particular instance of slavery at least. I also feel that the media today is making the gang activity and poverty that plagues many people, minority or not, something to be proud of instead of something to escape from. If you don't believe me, just listen to the popular songs.

Meh. All mainstream pop culture right now is racist, misogynist, consumerist, and all that crap. Hip-hop is no more so than rock or pop or country-western music. The fact that hip-hop gets singled out is very telling.
Very telling. Or did I miss something and hard rockers suddenly started treating the women in their audiences with respect and dignity? Doubtful. And there was the video someone linked to on another thread with country star Trace Adkins "singing" a song titled "Honky Tonk Badonkadonk."

Sometimes you apologize because it's the right thing to do, even if you don't personally feel sorry.
Unlike yourself apparnetly, I see token apologies as meaningless drivel.

But honestly, I don't see why you wouldn't be sorry about slavery. I kind of thought that most people were sorry that slavery happened. What does it cost you to say as much? Slavery happening is pretty normal, it continuing to the extent it did in America is deplorable. But am I sorry for slavery? No, I don't support slavery, never supported slavery, and had nothing to do with it.
For as long as there have been movements fighting the status quo and struggling for equality, there have been people insisting that the activists are being too loud or too annoying or are obsessing over nothing. For as long as black people have been fighting for equality, there have been white people insisting that they need to be nicer and quieter and quit obsessing over such negative things.
Again, you are equating racism with slavery, until you stop, I'm not going to address any more of your 'points' making that assertion.

Quit blaming the victims.

I have lived around affirmative action and attended schools where affirmative action is enforced. I have lived in poor black neighborhoods. I'm not racist. If somebody else tries to use that shit as an excuse for their racism, then they're a coward as well as a loser.
Really? Losing a job because the business had to meet an affirmative action quota or a scholarship/school acceptance because of affirmative action wouldn't make you mad? Of course you are going to retort 'I wouldn't be mad at black people' and I agree, but you overestimate the American sense of entitlement and classical misdirected anger. What if you end up working with some asshat people who bring up their race to prevent them from getting fired and can keep doing half-assed work because anti-racism measures would be all over anyone's ass who fired them? Would you not then be mad at the person? Affirmative action fuels racism.


Black political leaders continue to discuss the centuries-long enslavement of non-whites in this country.
Official slavery in the US: 1654-1865. Two centuries.
No slavery in the US: 1865-2007. A century and a half.

Move on.

Isn't that nutty. You know, I've also noticed that Jewish leaders sometimes refer to something called the Holocaust. Pfft. Living in the past, I say! Let bygones be bygones!
But the Holocaust is not used the same as American slavery is.
And look, a third time for the same fucking false dilemma - agree with the black movement's forefront position of slavery or forget it entirely.


If you want to end the feud, and if you really think that you're so far above it, then why don't YOU take the highground and end it? You seem to forget that YOU are one of the feuding sides.
A feud cannot be ended as long as the reason for the feud is continuously brought up and harped on. "Hey, your ancestor killed my ancestor, apologize!"
You know what, I'd let it go if it had a chance of being let go.


Meh. All mainstream pop culture right now is racist, misogynist, consumerist, and all that crap. Hip-hop is no more so than rock or pop or country-western music.
But mainstream hip-hop is being self-accepted as the culture of black people by black kids. Young girls are following the pop bullshit but when was the last time rock was a cultural influence? Again, the only other group of people who accept a musical genre as a cultural template are poor white trash. But you keep ignoring the fact that poor white communities mirror that of poor black communities despite the fact the latter can't blame their problems on racism.

The fact that hip-hop gets singled out is very telling.
I'm sorry, who brought it up? Oh yeah, you. Do you get off on attacking me for not going off on irrelevant tangents?

For as long as there have been movements fighting the status quo and struggling for equality, there have been people insisting that the activists are being too loud or too annoying or are obsessing over nothing. For as long as black people have been fighting for equality, there have been white people insisting that they need to be nicer and quieter and quit obsessing over such negative things.

or as mlk jr put it
We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct-action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant 'Never."
...
First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

i personally like william lloyd garrision's response to the exact same line from his opponents back during the abolitionist days
“Tell a man whose house is on fire to give a moderate alarm; tell him to moderately rescue his wife from the hands of the ravisher; tell the mother to gradually extricate her babe from the fire into which it has fallen; but urge me not to use moderation.”

Yes, let's all go on a tangent creating support information for an attack on a position no one holds.

I agree with you on the cancer bit, but i'm undecided on the main theme to this thread. So i'm going to read on a bit.

Yet making people apologize helps counter it? Genius!

:rolleyes:

It may surprise you, but usually in a reasonable discussion you actually pay attention to what the other person says. I've never made the claim that apologies help counter any kind of racism, conscious or unconscious.

No, the institution of a Black History Month only exists because it already exists.

How circular of you.

instead of discussing them when they would normally be encountered

There is no "instead."

How circular of you.

That was the point.


There is no "instead."
I'm sorry what?

That was the point.

That the best you can do is offer incoherent "explanations"?

You know as well as I do that the reason that Black History Month exists is not simply "because it already exists"... indeed, this is quite clear from the obvious fact that it has not always existed.

I'm sorry what?

I don't think anyone deliberately excludes discussion of Black history from ordinary history just because of Black History Month.

You know as well as I do that the reason that Black History Month exists is not simply "because it already exists"... indeed, this is quite clear from the obvious fact that it has not always existed.
It continues to exist because it exists,

I don't think anyone deliberately excludes discussion of Black history from ordinary history just because of Black History Month.
Teaching redundant information is a waste of class time.

Here's a clue. The amendment made it illegal. It didn't make it vanish. Just as marijuana use is illegal (except in rare cases) and yet exists all over the damn place.


Sweet freaking Christ why do I have to spell this kind of shit out?

Why? Because you're assertion is ridiculous. Show me where slavery exists in the US.

Well, the whole article wasn't quoted at the link--that was a teaser--but the original NG article did show examples of slavery in the US, rare, but still happening, generally on remote agricultural estates.

Where? Evidence?

Very telling. Or did I miss something and hard rockers suddenly started treating the women in their audiences with respect and dignity? Doubtful. And there was the video someone linked to on another thread with country star Trace Adkins "singing" a song titled "Honky Tonk Badonkadonk."

Damn country singers with their made up language. Soon, they'll be teaching classes with Honkey Tonk Badonkadonk....

Should Jews "get over" the Holocaust?
Probably, yeah.

It's "Afro-Americans" not "Blacks," you racists.

The problem with apologizing, now, for slavery is you set up a very dangerous precedent. By apologizing, the states* would admit fault and open themselves up even further to reparations suits.

..Somehow I have a funny feeling this is exactly what's really driving this sudden movement tppush the states for an apology.


*VA and MD, at the moment.

It's "Afro-Americans" not "Blacks," you racists.
I demand to be recognized as Italian or German American then.

It's "Afro-Americans" not "Blacks," you racists.
What if they're not Americans?

Black people live in a great many countries that aren't America.

A good example of what I mean by the general destructive preoccupation with slavery:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/467300p-393261c.html

In this, Stanley Crouch says:

Other than color, Obama did not - does not - share a heritage with the majority of black Americans, who are descendants of plantation slaves.

It is idiotic to draw a line between blacks who are decendents of slaves and blacks who aren't. Does Mr. Crouch intend to say that the large portion of black Americans whose geneology does not trace back to plantation slaves are less black or don't share a common cultural heritage?

It doesn't matter that Obama is indistinguishable from a black who descended from plantation slaves, or that Obama has a black wife, and more importantly, two black children, he is simply not black enough.

Why? Because you're assertion is ridiculous. Show me where slavery exists in the US.

Ridiculous, you say? (http://www.state.gov/g/rls/rm/2004/31063.htm)
Trafficking in persons is not just a human rights abuse that occurs in far away places. It happens here in America -- even right here in San Francisco. This January, an effort by the U.S. Attorney’s Office in San Francisco, in coordination with the Department of Homeland Security and other law enforcement agencies broke up a San Francisco prostitution ring of six brothels. Ten women were found at various locations in suburban homes. All had been smuggled into the country from Asia and forced to work as prostitutes. Federal agents also found large amounts of cash and evidence of a larger sex trade conspiracy.
And this is just one example in the sex trade in the US. It's more widespread than that--not as bad in the US as in other places in the world, but it unquestionably exists.

Edit: Here's a little more for you to chew on (http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/09/23_16691.shtml).

I'll agree with Teh_Pantless_Hero's and Vittos' arguments on this.

Probably, yeah.
Yes.

It's "Afro-Americans" not "Blacks," you racists.
Since when is "blacks" racist...?

Since when is "blacks" racist...?

It's not.

There are these little things called history and discrimination. Although race has little or no biological significance, it has had and continues to have enormous significance. As historian Roger Wilkins has pointed out some years ago: "Blacks have a 375-year history on this continent: 245 involving slavery, 100 involving legalized discrimination, and only 30 involving anything else."

And if you do not think discrimination still ocurrs you are living in a dream world. Widespread discrimination and exclusion and their ripple effects continue to exist.

(By the way, I love how many of you discuss blacks and black politicians as if blacks had a hive mind and were easily manipulated. No racist connotations there at all.)

Does Mr. Crouch intend to say that the large portion of black Americans whose geneology does not trace back to plantation slaves are less black or don't share a common cultural heritage?

Black Americans are not so much defined racially as they are socially and culturally.

It's "Afro-Americans" not "Blacks," you racists.

...Are you serious?

They. Are. Black. African-American can be damn near anyone. A white immigrant from south africa? African-American. An Arab from Egypt? African-American.


They are black. Period. End of story. If you don't like it, go talk to the nice men in white sheets. Then be grateful we're calling you what you actually are.


Sorry, that's just a pet peeve of mine.

were easily manipulated.

That is one of the most striking features of these threads, and of these discussions more generally.

It is always the "black politicians" and "black leaders" who are at fault - as if blacks cannot think for themselves, and could not possibly actually be capable of recognizing racism instead of just being manipulated into it by their allegedly corrupt leadership.

There are these little things called history and discrimination. Although race has little or no biological significance, it has had and continues to have enormous significance. As historian Roger Wilkins has pointed out some years ago: "Blacks have a 375-year history on this continent: 245 involving slavery, 100 involving legalized discrimination, and only 30 involving anything else."
Too bad slavery didn't last 245 years.

And if you do not think discrimination still ocurrs you are living in a dream world. Widespread discrimination and exclusion and their ripple effects continue to exist.
Yet, ironically, no one is claiming that. Instead, we are saying the black movement should focus on that discrimination instead of focusing on the past of slavery. But don't let facts get in the way of some crusade.

(By the way, I love how many of you discuss blacks and black politicians as if blacks had a hive mind and were easily manipulated. No racist connotations there at all.)
Yet you yourself, in this very post, suggest all black people are linked by the same history of discrimination and racism, thus by deductive reasoning we reach the conclusion that all black people, and especially politicians, are influenced by similar things.

It is always the "black politicians" and "black leaders" who are at fault - as if blacks cannot think for themselves, and could not possibly actually be capable of recognizing racism instead of just being manipulated into it by their allegedly corrupt leadership.
Those most affected by racism rally around and take up the positions of such people as Jesse Jackson. Or are you suggesting that black people can't succumb to the bandwagon affect after its combined with a decent dose of racism and persecution complex (real or imagined) because suggesting otherwise makes you a racist.

Black Americans are not so much defined racially as they are socially and culturally.

Obviously, but that doesn't mean that the black whose father immigrated from Africa or Europe doesn't face the same discrimination as the black who descended from slaves.

Obviously, but that doesn't mean that the black whose father immigrated from Africa or Europe doesn't face the same discrimination as the black who descended from slaves.

You and your silly meaningless facts. Those kind of things get in the way of the great confusion of indignation. They define themselves culturally and socially, but are all linked by a history of racism and discrimination, yet are not defined racially.

Yet, ironically, no one is claiming that. Instead, we are saying the black movement should focus on that discrimination instead of focusing on the past of slavery. But don't let facts get in the way of some crusade.


Slavery, history and the past consist of "facts." Facts you seem to want to make go away. They won't. Also, and while I'm sure "the black movement" is very concerned about your opinion, but I'm pretty sure it's only because you seem to be a closet racist. Maybe you're right on one thing - we should focus on modern discrimination, like for example, people who shrug and blurt out "LOL GET OVER SLAVERY ITS IN THE PAST LOL" so often as you.

Too bad slavery didn't last 245 years.

Yes, it did.

1619 - 1865.

Too bad slavery didn't last 245 years.
1619 to 1865 is 246 years, so I guess you are right. Wilkins shorted slavery a year.:headbang:


Yet, ironically, no one is claiming that. Instead, we are saying the black movement should focus on that discrimination instead of focusing on the past of slavery. But don't let facts get in the way of some crusade.

First of all, who is the "black movement" that is so misguided? Which black leaders are not focused on current discrimination?

Secondly, try to absorb the idea that history has some impact on the present and the future. Racism in the United States is shaped by slavery and segregation, respectively.

BTW, are you one of the ones that argue that the Confederate flag is okay to fly because "it is part of our heritage"?

Yet you yourself, in this very post, suggest all black people are linked by the same history of discrimination and racism, thus by deductive reasoning we reach the conclusion that all black people, and especially politicians, are influenced by similar things.

Did I say all black people have suffered the exact same discrimination and racism? I don't think so.

It is true that blacks as a whole have suffered a long history of slavery and segregation in this country. And that effects how this country is today. To say otherwise is pure bullshit.

Obviously, but that doesn't mean that the black whose father immigrated from Africa or Europe doesn't face the same discrimination as the black who descended from slaves.

So?

Slavery, history and the past consist of "facts." Facts you seem to want to make go away. They won't. Also, and while I'm sure "the black movement" is very concerned about your opinion, but I'm pretty sure it's only because you seem to be a closet racist. Maybe you're right on one thing - we should focus on modern discrimination, like for example, people who shrug and blurt out "LOL GET OVER SLAVERY ITS IN THE PAST LOL" so often as you.

It is not being argued that slavery be swept under the rug; anyone who suggests that blacks simply forget about slavery is a fool.

What is being argued is that slavery should be an ancillary piece of evidence, not the central wrong that needs to be righted. The present double standard and marginalization imposed upon the black community by government and society is the central wrong.

They define themselves culturally and socially, but are all linked by a history of racism and discrimination, yet are not defined racially.

The key word is "history."

"A history of racism and discrimination" is cultural and social, not racial - and, indeed, the "racial" categories towards which racists respond are often substantially cultural and social, too.

It is not being argued that slavery be swept under the rug

What else does "get over it" mean?

So?

So the race, the skin color, of the black individual is often the defining feature of his social role and culture, at least as it pertains to discrimination in our society.

What else does "get over it" mean?

It means "It happened it was bad, now please stop bitching about it."

So the race, the skin color, of the black individual is often the defining feature of his social role and culture,

Maybe in terms of racial discrimination. Not necessarily in terms of identity, or other matters.

The only point made in the article you linked was that Obama's heritage and experiences are not representative of the typical black male's in this country... and that is a perfectly legitimate point, and one that goes beyond (as, indeed, the article did) descent from slaves.

1619 to 1865 is 246 years, so I guess you are right. Wilkins shorted slavery a year.:headbang:
There is always conflicting evidence that black people were not officially declared to be slaves, as opposed to indentured servants, until the 1650s.



Racism in the United States is shaped by slavery and segregation, respectively.
No. Slavery only shapes racism in so much as it is forced to. Slavery could be discounted out of hand and racism would still be the same.

BTW, are you one of the ones that argue that the Confederate flag is okay to fly because "it is part of our heritage"?
Thanks for the bullshit, roll again.

It is true that blacks as a whole have suffered a long history of slavery and segregation in this country. And that effects how this country is today. To say otherwise is pure bullshit.
Slavery has no effect on anything today in this country, nothing to do with race relations anyway.

What else does "get over it" mean?

Neither TPH nor I have called for blacks to "get over" slavery.

We make the observation that blacks should be calling for reparations and apologies for current woes and that calling for reparations for past atrocities undermines their struggle, and we get labeled closet racists who are making light of slavery.

now please stop bitching about it."

Which does preclude its use as an "ancillary piece of evidence" - which is actually a good description of its typical role.

The key word is "history."

"A history of racism and discrimination" is cultural and social, not racial - and, indeed, the "racial" categories towards which racists respond are often substantially cultural and social, too.

That is as ridiculous as anything I have said in this thread. A history of racism is not race related, I'm sorry, but what the fuck? Any black person to step foot in America, whether raised here or just visiting, is subject to the racism that is part history and part an American xenophobia.

Neither TPH nor I have called for blacks to "get over" slavery.

TPH was defending its use on the first page on this thread.

A history of racism is not race related, I'm sorry, but what the fuck?

I never said anything about whether or not the causes of the racism itself were "race-related"; obviously they were, and are.

I was talking about the differences between racial characteristics (such as they are) and social and cultural characteristics... and coming from a family and a culture with a long history of racism and discrimination is most certainly not a "racial characteristic." The mere fact that Obama's father was a black Kenyan obviously does not mean that he shares that history, regardless of to what degree he is similar or dissimilar to other black Americans in purely genetic terms.

I never said anything about whether or not the causes of the racism itself were "race-related"; obviously they were, and are.

I was talking about the differences between racial characteristics (such as they are) and social and cultural characteristics... and coming from a family and a culture with a long history of racism and discrimination is most certainly not a "racial characteristic." The mere fact that Obama's father was a black Kenyan obviously does not mean that he shares that history, regardless of to what degree he is similar or dissimilar to other black Americans in purely genetic terms.
Right, and I'm the one discounting racism. Are you then saying that because Obama's father wasn't a slave, Obama hasn't experienced the same racism as any other black person in his past 45 years, therefore implying racism doesn't still exist?


Like I said, get over racism, you are just reaffirming my point that blacks in America define themselves by slavery and blame it for all their problems. Define yourself by slavery? No, bad. Get over it. How can you progress if you define yourself and problems by an institution ended a century and a half ago? You are quite blatantly playing down current racism in favor of highlighting slavery, thanks again.

TPH was defending its use on the first page on this thread.

I believe he called asking blacks to get over slavery "highly pointless dickery".

That doesn't strike me as defending it.

Are you then saying that because Obama's father wasn't a slave, Obama hasn't experienced the same racism as any other black person in his past 45 years, therefore implying racism doesn't still exist?

Are you saying that the only culture, heritage, and identity shared by American blacks is "I am right now a victim of present-day racism"?

Because only under such an assumption could you have taken that meaning from my post.

Are you saying that the only culture, heritage, and identity shared by American blacks is "I am right now a victim of present-day racism"?

Because only under such an assumption could you have taken that meaning from my post.

1) There is only 1 group of people who should define their culture by slavery - slaves, and really, not even them.

2) You said Obama did not have the same experiences as other black people because his father wasn't involved in your little exclusive "my ancestors were slaves" club. I'm sorry, how old are you? How old is Obama? I rest my case. For 35 of his 45 years he was suscepted to the same shit you were, probably more.

Like I said, get over racism, you are just reaffirming my point that blacks in America define themselves by slavery and blame it for all their problems.

My post had nothing at all to do with "blam[ing] slavery for all their problems," or even defining black identity by slavery exclusively.

Did you even read the article Vittos posted? Racism was merely a part of a larger point.

You are quite blatantly playing down current racism in favor of highlighting slavery

I didn't say a word in that post about the effects of racism today. I was talking about social, cultural, and racial factors, and their role in identity.

Honestly... how many times do I have to say this? READ WHAT I SAY. NOT WHAT YOU THINK I SAY.

1) There is only 1 group of people who should define their culture by slavery - slaves, and really, not even them.

So?

I never said black culture was defined exclusively by slavery, nor did the author of the article Vittos posted.

2) You said Obama did not have the same experiences as other black people because his father wasn't involved in your little exclusive "my ancestors were slaves" club.

I believe I said he didn't have the same cultural heritage as other blacks, and left it at that. I certainly never said that he didn't experience racism.

I don't believe I claimed membership in any "club," whoever my ancestors were. I actually tend to identify with no race.

Edit: I'm not sure why you're bringing this up. I haven't the slightest care for Obama or his particular racial or cultural characteristics... he's a center-left capitalist politician, which means I'll support him while holding my nose if he's nominated for President as better than the Republican alternative, and beyond that I honestly don't give a damn.

My only contention is that Vittos's interpretation of the article's position misses the point, which deals not with the effects of racism, and the proper solutions to them, but with the question of identity.

Ridiculous, you say? (http://www.state.gov/g/rls/rm/2004/31063.htm)

And this is just one example in the sex trade in the US. It's more widespread than that--not as bad in the US as in other places in the world, but it unquestionably exists.

Edit: Here's a little more for you to chew on (http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/09/23_16691.shtml).

Now, that wasn't so hard, was it? It took a little prompting, but sometimes that's what it takes to get people to back up their assertions.

Now, that wasn't so hard, was it? It took a little prompting, but sometimes that's what it takes to get information.

So you're saying that you're too inept to use google on your own then? Just making sure.

cancer ain't incurable - it just takes some fairly intense measures, and just wishing doesn't solve the problem. really, it's actually a pretty good comparison.

^^absolutely^^

Did you even read the article Vittos posted? Racism was merely a part of a larger point.

Can you please go back to that article and cull from it all differences Stanley Crouch exposes between himself and Barack Obama?

Mr. Obama has worked to help the inner-city poor in Chicago, he has worked to progress civil rights, he has been a politically active black man. What specific pieces of black culture and heritage does Mr. Crouch say the junior senator from Illinois not have?

Edit: I'm not sure why you're bringing this up. I haven't the slightest care for Obama or his particular racial or cultural characteristics... he's a center-left capitalist politician, which means I'll support him while holding my nose if he's nominated for President as better than the Republican alternative, and beyond that I honestly don't give a damn.


My only contention is that Vittos's interpretation of the article's position misses the point, which deals not with the effects of racism, and the proper solutions to them, but with the question of identity.

On NPR, they had a story that said that American blacks still largely support Hillary Clinton over Barack Obama, and then addressed why Black Americans do not identify with Obama.

Needless to say that the election of Barack Obama would be by far the most significant advancement for the black community in 40 years, but they are willing to set that aside because Obama doesn't share a heritage that a great many Black Americans don't share.

If the current focus of the black political movement (while that doesn't imply a hive mind, it does imply that there is somewhat of a front to black politics) were on the current racial maladies of our society, all of which Obama has experienced and faught, they would roundly support him over a priveleged white. Instead, because they identify themselves and their politics with an arbitrary history that has little effect on how the individual is treated (in other words one black man is not treated worse than another because he is a decendant of slaves), they nearly entirely discredit his race and discredit him by saying he would be entering the White House through the "side door".

On NPR, they had a story that said that American blacks still largely support Hillary Clinton over Barack Obama, and then addressed why Black Americans do not identify with Obama.
I remember that piece, and my take from it was more that the black community currently supports Clinton over Obama about 2 to 1, but that may be more due to Bill than anything else, which means name recognition is a major factor. That's the big reason Hillary leads in nationwide polls right now--everyone knows who she is. My guess is that as the primaries get closer, Obama will drain some, if not most of that support away, not just because of his skin color, but because he does have a long history of working in the local black community. He has the cred, in short, but needs to get the message out. He's still largely unknown.

I remember that piece, and my take from it was more that the black community currently supports Clinton over Obama about 2 to 1, but that may be more due to Bill than anything else, which means name recognition is a major factor. That's the big reason Hillary leads in nationwide polls right now--everyone knows who she is. My guess is that as the primaries get closer, Obama will drain some, if not most of that support away, not just because of his skin color, but because he does have a long history of working in the local black community. He has the cred, in short, but needs to get the message out. He's still largely unknown.

I can believe that, but they did offer at least one soundbyte where a man said that Obama lacked the "slave heritage". As it is I agree with you that once this race heats up, blacks will recognize the work Obama has done.

The opinion I would really like to hear on this issue is that of Bobby Rush, but NPR only offered a short (but still informative) clip.

I can believe that, but they did offer at least one soundbyte where a man said that Obama lacked the "slave heritage". As it is I agree with you that once this race heats up, blacks will recognize the work Obama has done.

The opinion I would really like to hear on this issue is that of Bobby Rush, but NPR only offered a short (but still informative) clip.

I have to say I don't really understand that attitude. It's not like white racists are asking "are you descended from slaves or are you from the Caribbean?" They see the black skin and that's enough.

On NPR, they had a story that said that American blacks still largely support Hillary Clinton over Barack Obama, and then addressed why Black Americans do not identify with Obama.

Why does everyone seem to think that Black Americans vote mindlessly for whoever shares their race? The Republicans tried that in Maryland; Steele lost overwhelmingly among Maryland Blacks anyway.

Needless to say that the election of Barack Obama would be by far the most significant advancement for the black community in 40 years

No, it wouldn't. It would be even more meaningless and symbolic than a state apologizing for slavery.

If the current focus of the black political movement (while that doesn't imply a hive mind, it does imply that there is somewhat of a front to black politics) were on the current racial maladies of our society, all of which Obama has experienced and faught, they would roundly support him over a priveleged white.

No, they wouldn't. They would support the person who was willing to focus on fixing the "current racial maladies" - black, white, multiracial, whoever.

Admittedly, my recent apathy towards electoral politics has stopped me from paying much attention to the primary candidates - but I don't believe any of them qualify. They know what the response of white voters and the media will be.

they nearly entirely discredit his race

Yeah... because when it comes to politicians, race means shit.

Michael Steele is black. Alan Keyes is black. Colin Powell is black. Condi Rice is black.

I have to say I don't really understand that attitude. It's not like white racists are asking "are you descended from slaves or are you from the Caribbean?" They see the black skin and that's enough.

Neither do I, but I think that it represents the preoccupation with slavery.

I can believe that, but they did offer at least one soundbyte where a man said that Obama lacked the "slave heritage".

Yeah... and again, this is a question of identity.

If you're trying to get votes by getting voters to identify with you, culture and heritage are quite important.

Yeah... and again, this is a question of identity.

If you're trying to get votes by getting voters to identify with you, culture and heritage are quite important.

I have to think though that those people are a minority in the black community, and that once the Democratic primary really gets underway, Obama will wind up carrying the majority of the black vote. Clinton's strategy right now has to be to limit her losses in that demographic.

Why does everyone seem to think that Black Americans vote mindlessly for whoever shares their race? The Republicans tried that in Maryland; Steele lost overwhelmingly among Maryland Blacks anyway.

Who said they did?

No, it wouldn't. It would be even more meaningless and symbolic than a state apologizing for slavery.

Are you serious? Getting VA to apologize for slavery would be more significant than electing a black president?

No, they wouldn't. They would support the person who was willing to focus on fixing the "current racial maladies" - black, white, multiracial, whoever.

And a black man wouldn't be more motivated to fix them than a priveleged white?

Yeah... because when it comes to politicians, race means shit.

Which explains all of our non-white presidents.

Yeah... and again, this is a question of identity.

If you're trying to get votes by getting voters to identify with you, culture and heritage are quite important.

Yet they are focusing on an arbitrary portion of that culture, which is what I have been saying all along.

To say that Barack Obama doesn't understand what it means to be black because he is not decended from slaves is ludicrous.

Which explains all of our non-white presidents.

Race is only NOT an issue when white people represent the majority.

Who said they did?

The notion that American Blacks prefer Clinton to Obama because they don't think Obama is "black enough" rests on that assumption.

Are you serious? Getting VA to apologize for slavery would be more significant than electing a black president?

What matters is not the race of the president, but the policies of the president.

I don't know about you, but if Alan Keyes were elected president, I wouldn't particularly welcome it as a miraculous advancement of the interests of Black Americans.

And a black man wouldn't be more motivated to fix them than a priveleged white?

The average black man, sure. But the average black man isn't going to be elected president.

Which explains all of our non-white presidents.

Undoubtedly there is racism involved in that. I was talking about policy positions, though.

Yet they are focusing on an arbitrary portion of that culture, which is what I have been saying all along.

Identity is generally based upon arbitrary factors. So?

To say that Barack Obama doesn't understand what it means to be black because he is not decended from slaves is ludicrous.

A lack of descent from slaves is not the reason, but an indication of the reason - missing the cultural heritage that resulted from slavery, and from the century or so afterward.

Are you serious? Getting VA to apologize for slavery would be more significant than electing a black president?
Of course it is because Obama is the only black person with a hope of getting elected and he isn't in the "my ancestors were slaves" club that Soheren keeps pretending he isn't preoccupied with.

A lack of descent from slaves is not the reason, but an indication of the reason - missing the cultural heritage that resulted from slavery, and from the century or so afterward.
My point manifest. He pretends that the black culture isn't defined by slavery then goes ahead and declares Obama doesn't belong because he isn't in the "enslaved ancestors" club and therefore cannot possibly relate to any other American blacks, despite the fact that none of them were slaves and that Obama has experienced the same racism they have experienced.

Of course it is because Obama is the only black person with a hope of getting elected and he isn't in the "my ancestors were slaves" club that Soheren keeps pretending he isn't preoccupied with.

If you want to respond to what I have said, reply to me, not to Vittos. Thanks.

My point manifest. He pretends that the black culture isn't defined by slavery then goes ahead and declares Obama doesn't belong because he isn't in the "enslaved ancestors" club and therefore cannot possibly relate to any other American blacks, despite the fact that none of them were slaves and that Obama has experienced the same racism they have experienced.

As usual, you have absolutely no comprehension of what I actually said. Try again.

If you want to respond to what I have said, reply to me, not to Vittos. Thanks.
I was mocking you. Thanks.



As usual, you have absolutely no comprehension of what I actually said. Try again.
Ok, let's quote you then, then you can deny whatever you want.

missing the cultural heritage that resulted from slavery, and from the century or so afterward.
So black culture defines itself by slavery and its aftereffects, namely racism. Obama has experienced as much, probably more, racism than you have, get over yourself. No group should define itself by slavery except slaves, and not even them. A preoccupation with slavery over current racism is just going to alienate black people and prevent them from moving forward and overcoming current racism.

You even agreed with vitto that a lack of slavery in his past alienated him from other blacks. Wow, an admittance that the American black preoccupation with slavery alienates people of their own race who don't share the same past, despite the fact that all black people are subject to the same racism.

I was mocking you. Thanks.

And I was asking you to stop. It's annoying.

So black culture defines itself by slavery and its aftereffects, namely racism.

I didn't say its "aftereffects" - I said "the century or so afterward."

Obama has experienced as much, probably more, racism than you have, get over yourself.

So?

No group should define itself by slavery except slaves, and not even them. A preoccupation with slavery over current racism is just going to alienate black people and prevent them from moving forward and overcoming current racism.

Stop making up shit. I'm really getting tired of it.

You even agreed with vitto that a lack of slavery in his past alienated him from other blacks.

No, I don't think I did... I might have agreed that a lack of the culture resulting from slavery and other factors differentiated him from other blacks, though.

Wow, an admittance that the American black preoccupation with slavery alienates people of their own race who don't share the same past,

That culture alienates people from people who don't share that culture? How astonishing!

No, I don't think I did... I might have agreed that a lack of the culture resulting from slavery and other factors differentiated him from other blacks, though.

That culture alienates people from people who don't share that culture? How astonishing!

yeah, it's not like obama grew up in your average african-american community. unless they have some of those in jakarta and honolulu that i'm unaware of.

No, I don't think I did... I might have agreed that a lack of the culture resulting from slavery and other factors differentiated him from other blacks, though.
What sort of bullshit game of semantics is that? That's the same god damn thing I said. Unless you are asserting that being part of slavery (note: no black person alive in the US is or was a slave) creates in people some level of culture not present in people who wern't a part of slavery.


That culture alienates people from people who don't share that culture? How astonishing!
So black culture is defined by slavery?

yeah, it's not like obama grew up in your average african-american community. unless they have some of those in jakarta and honolulu that i'm unaware of.
Let's see, how long was he out of the country? less than 10 years. How old is he? 45 years old.
Oh wait, you are saying he didn't live in a "ghetto" or some other sort of slum, so he can't possibly know about or have experienced racism? I think that says more about Hawaii and you (and possibly your average black person) than it does about Obama.

What sort of bullshit game of semantics is that? That's the same god damn thing I said.

a lack of slavery in his past alienated him from other blacks

a lack of the culture resulting from slavery and other factors differentiated him from other blacks

In what world are these two statements equivalent?

Unless you are asserting that being part of slavery (note: no black person alive in the US is or was a slave) creates in people some level of culture not present in people who wern't a part of slavery.

"Level" of culture implies some kind of hierarchy; that's not what I said.

Certainly, slavery has an effect on the culture of the people who experience it... are you honestly denying that?

As for your "note", it only applies to your distortion of what I actually said.

So black culture is defined by slavery?

it and its legacy (and the associated bullshit) are among the defining parts of their shared cultural identity. should we find this surprising? all ethnic groups and cultures do similar things.

Certainly, slavery has an effect on the culture of the people who experience it... are you honestly denying that?
And what has that effect been?

And what has that effect been?

Does it matter?

Let's see, how long was he out of the country? less than 10 years. How old is he? 45 years old.

and the rest of his childhood and teen years were spent in honolulu. which as far as i could tell during my fairly extensive 'gotta find a place to live' tour of the city, is not a stronghold of african-american culture.

Oh wait, you are saying he didn't live in a "ghetto" or some other sort of slum, so he can't possibly know about or have experienced racism?

where did you get that from?

in addition to marrying in and his children being part of the african-american community, the racist attacks on him from the right will probably be one of the things that wind up winning him support from the community as a whole.

So you're saying that you're too inept to use google on your own then? Just making sure.

Yeah, that's exactly it. :rolleyes:

I could, and did. I just wanted you to actually support your argument.

What matters is not the race of the president, but the policies of the president.

I don't know about you, but if Alan Keyes were elected president, I wouldn't particularly welcome it as a miraculous advancement of the interests of Black Americans.

It would certainly be looked at as a milestone in black advancement and acceptance in our society, it would set a precedent of black competency to serve in such high office. Even if he is an uncle tom who wouldn't serve black interests, you couldn't help but call it a milestone.

The average black man, sure. But the average black man isn't going to be elected president.

Then you agree that Barack Obama wouldn't be more keen to the racial implications of any policies he supported than Hillary Clinton?

Undoubtedly there is racism involved in that. I was talking about policy positions, though.

And a black man with two black daughters could not have greater motivation to work for the black community through his policies.

Identity is generally based upon arbitrary factors. So?

Actually it is based on more concrete factors.

A lack of descent from slaves is not the reason, but an indication of the reason - missing the cultural heritage that resulted from slavery, and from the century or so afterward.

How could not being descended from slaves possibly preclude a black man from missing the "cultural heritage that resulted from slavery"?

I can take the argument the Obama does not share a heritage with many blacks because he grew up priveleged, but that only supports my opinion that many blacks focus on slavery when it is not germane. There are priveleged blacks who are decendants of slavery who have no experience of the cultural heritage that resulted from slavery.

Then you agree that Barack Obama wouldn't be more keen to the racial implications of any policies he supported than Hillary Clinton?

Perhaps he would be, but I'm not about to make the assumption solely because of his race.

Anyway, as The Nazz mentioned, Hillary Clinton's popularity among blacks probably has more to do with her name recognition and the popularity of her husband than any animosity towards Obama.

And a black man with two black daughters could not have greater motivation to work for the black community through his policies.

And if he made his intention to do that clear, I'm sure his support among the black community would rise.

yeah, it's not like obama grew up in your average african-american community. unless they have some of those in jakarta and honolulu that i'm unaware of.

Which has nothing to do with the "slave heritage".

How could not being descended from slaves possibly preclude a black man from missing the "cultural heritage that resulted from slavery"?

Because generally you inherit the cultural heritage of your parents.

Perhaps he would be, but I'm not about to make the assumption solely because of his race.

Anyway, as The Nazz mentioned, Hillary Clinton's popularity among blacks probably has more to do with her name recognition and the popularity of her husband than any animosity towards Obama.

And if he made his intention to do that clear, I'm sure his support among the black community would rise.

I hope this is true.

While I believe Hillary would be an advocate of black rights and advancement (even though she has repeatedly made light the situation of plantation slaves), it would be a shame to reject a black man who has worked a great deal to advance the black community, simply because he isn't descended from plantation slaves or because he was born in Hawaii.

Because generally you inherit the cultural heritage of your parents.

As I understand it the cultural heritage that resulted from slavery was not a direct result of slavery, but a direct result of the continuing racial discrimination that began with slavery. There is no black man who is not molded by that ongoing discrimination.

As I understand it the cultural heritage that resulted from slavery was not a direct result of slavery, but a direct result of the continuing racial discrimination that began with slavery.

The cultural heritage is a direct result of slavery and of the continuing racial discrimination.

If racial discrimination stopped tomorrow, the cultural heritage would remain.

The cultural heritage is a direct result of slavery and of the continuing racial discrimination.

If racial discrimination stopped tomorrow, the cultural heritage would remain.

How important is the history of slavery, at least politically speaking?

As I understand it the cultural heritage that resulted from slavery was not a direct result of slavery, but a direct result of the continuing racial discrimination that began with slavery. There is no black man who is not molded by that ongoing discrimination.

Exactly. That's what I said earlier--a racist isn't going to differentiate between a person descended from slaves and a person from Haiti. Skin color is all that matters. That's why the idea, put forth by a small minority of blacks, that Obama isn't really black is ludicrous. But it's important to note that that position is a very small minority of blacks, not the majority.

How important is the history of slavery, at least politically speaking?

Honestly, I have no idea.

I think it's far too early to make any judgment of that based on Obama's level of support among blacks, though.

For everyone reading this forum here is a few facts. Racism is alive and well and to deny it, is to lie. Racism just doesn't come from the white man. Many blacks hate the white, mexicans hate the blacks and asians, South Americans hate the Mexicans, Asians hate the mexicans, And the only race that actually has the right to hate any other is the indians. Their whole race was almost wiped out entirely just for land. Slavery is over in the US has been for over 140 years. Slavery still exists in areas throughout the world. Especially in Africa and China. I personally do not own any, or know of anyone who has had slaves. I never met anyone who was a slave. How about any of you? African tribes were enslaving weaker tribes long before the US was even discovered. And still do it now. The chinese sell off excess children to the underground, pedafiles, and prostitution. The ones who have a right to be racists is the native american(indian) their race is still teetering on extinction, but there are no slaves in the USA now is there? They were only people who didn't speak English so were dubbed savages with no right to live. Times were different back then and is still messed up (in our eyes) in areas of the world. As for the Holocaust it happened, jews blame the nazis for it, no-one else. The japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. We bombed and irradiated several hundred thousand japanese because we could do it FIRST. All men are monsters, get used to it. And all the worst wars in the history of mankind were started over religious beliefs. What kind of men kill thousands in the name of God? What does the Salem witch burnings, the Holocaust, Spanish Inquisition, Slavery, and other such atrocities have in common? All were started because of a difference of opinion in religious views. People are stupid, will always be stupid, will die stupid. Therefore we do stupid things, and sometimes abominable things. And yet people follow. Our own president for example is a dumbass, cokehead, drunkdriving, rich, white trash. And we knew this when we voted him in office. And even after proving himself as a dumbass we voted him in again, and complain of the job he does. Why would people vote someone in office then complain of the things he does? Stupidity. the length of this forum PROVES that everyone disagrees on matters but yet continue to try to push their opinions on everyone else. Whatever happened to individuality? Why can we all not have our OWN opinion? Do we have to hate people because we see things differently? We are all racists in some form or another, accept it. The past is the past, it cannot be changed. Why do we dwell on it so much? What kind of future do we have when we do not concentrate on it, but what we SHOULD have done. Slavery sucks, Racism sucks, People swallow. I am not a racist, but I do hate all people equally. Thank the flying spaghetti monster our time is nearly over. If we learn one thing from this reply let it be this: Shut the fuck up, and live in the now. Things will never change if we do not address them now. Not thinking about how we SHOULD have done it. :upyours:

For everyone reading this forum here is a few facts. Racism is alive and well and to deny it, is to lie. Racism just doesn't come from the white man. Many blacks hate the white, mexicans hate the blacks and asians, South Americans hate the Mexicans, Asians hate the mexicans, And the only race that actually has the right to hate any other is the indians. Their whole race was almost wiped out entirely just for land. Slavery is over in the US has been for over 140 years. Slavery still exists in areas throughout the world. Especially in Africa and China. I personally do not own any, or know of anyone who has had slaves. I never met anyone who was a slave. How about any of you? African tribes were enslaving weaker tribes long before the US was even discovered. And still do it now. The chinese sell off excess children to the underground, pedafiles, and prostitution. The ones who have a right to be racists is the native american(indian) their race is still teetering on extinction, but there are no slaves in the USA now is there? They were only people who didn't speak English so were dubbed savages with no right to live. Times were different back then and is still messed up (in our eyes) in areas of the world. As for the Holocaust it happened, jews blame the nazis for it, no-one else. The japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. We bombed and irradiated several hundred thousand japanese because we could do it FIRST. All men are monsters, get used to it. And all the worst wars in the history of mankind were started over religious beliefs. What kind of men kill thousands in the name of God? What does the Salem witch burnings, the Holocaust, Spanish Inquisition, Slavery, and other such atrocities have in common? All were started because of a difference of opinion in religious views. People are stupid, will always be stupid, will die stupid. Therefore we do stupid things, and sometimes abominable things. And yet people follow. Our own president for example is a dumbass, cokehead, drunkdriving, rich, white trash. And we knew this when we voted him in office. And even after proving himself as a dumbass we voted him in again, and complain of the job he does. Why would people vote someone in office then complain of the things he does? Stupidity. the length of this forum PROVES that everyone disagrees on matters but yet continue to try to push their opinions on everyone else. Whatever happened to individuality? Why can we all not have our OWN opinion? Do we have to hate people because we see things differently? We are all racists in some form or another, accept it. The past is the past, it cannot be changed. Why do we dwell on it so much? What kind of future do we have when we do not concentrate on it, but what we SHOULD have done. Slavery sucks, Racism sucks, People swallow. I am not a racist, but I do hate all people equally. Thank the flying spaghetti monster our time is nearly over. If we learn one thing from this reply let it be this: Shut the fuck up, and live in the now. Things will never change if we do not address them now. Not thinking about how we SHOULD have done it. :upyours:

Dude...use paragraphs. It hurt my head trying to read that! :p