NationStates Jolt Archive

I was listening to a story on the radio about hybrid sales. Turns out they're on the wane -- dealers are having to offer incentives to get normal people to buy the green machines. I started looking at some of the prices and instantly figured out why they're becoming unpopular.

For more than a similar gas engined car, you can have a car with slightly better fuel economy.

Let's look...
Honda Lexus Prius
$33,000 $55,000 $22,000
31 mpg 26 mpg 55 mpg

Don't forget that these are all EPA numbers, not real world data. My twelve year old E300 diesel gets a "real" 33 mpg. That's pretty good for a car that weighs in at 4000 pounds. My Ram 2500 gets a "real" 22 mpg. That's pretty good for a truck that is just about 6000 pounds.

Fuel economy is all about mpg and I don't see the hybrids doing much to improve or conserve fuel. And at the price/mpg, there's certainly no reason to buy a hybrid. Not unless we all decide to ride around in the Prius golf cart.

:upyours: I drive a 84 F100 that gets 7MPG...
--Jealous--

OH well i guess i deserve it putting a 351C in it :P

When the price of gasoline is at or above $3.00 a gallon, people will buy hybrids. When it falls, sales fall, too. The hybrids consume less gas, right, so they'd have that effect, of burning less of it. Of course, that'll only have a real effect when there are many times more of them on the roads. Certainly for city driving, they'd be worth it. Other kinds of vehicles are required for other kinds of driving and other kinds of jobs. But while gas is still plentiful and relatively affordable, the auto makers have no real incentive to convert their product lines to hybrid technology, nor do people have the incentive to buy them. It's all about the money, after all.

Really? I just read that hybrid sales are up 10% year over year despite the drop in oil prices.

The only reason hybrids don't sell well now is because gas prices are falling. Every single year since they have been introduced, hybrid sales fall during the winter and rise going in to the spring and summer. It's an entirely predictable pattern. Also, once we start seeing $3-$4 again, we'll be seeing more sales. And you're going to be seeing that quite soon, if not this year than in the near future.

Plus, you have to take in to account that the Prius isn't the only hybrid; there are hybrid trucks, SUVs, and cars out there, and all of them offer significantly higher mileage than their comparable conventional models. In fact, a lot of brands are rolling out hybrid versions of their conventional vehicles for only a small additional cost; the economics of hybrid technology simply make sense, and they're going to continue to grow rapidly in to the foreseeable future.

Wasteful vehicles are dying, plain and simple...almost nobody's buying them, and that's why so many companies are working to improve fuel economy or integrate hybrid technology in to their vehicles. It's the next generation of the automobile; the conventional ICE is outdated and it's getting hard to push it further...that's where hybrids come in.

I've no automobile.

I've no automobile.

Neither do I, but I'm getting a Prius or a comparable hybrid once I graduate.

$22,000 for any vehicle, especially a new one, is pretty good; not to mention I save on the gas and might even be able to get the tax credit if the cap is raised. Plus, I like the way the Prius looks.

I was listening to a story on the radio about hybrid sales. Turns out they're on the wane -- dealers are having to offer incentives to get normal people to buy the green machines. I started looking at some of the prices and instantly figured out why they're becoming unpopular.

For more than a similar gas engined car, you can have a car with slightly better fuel economy.

Let's look...
Honda Lexus Prius
$33,000 $55,000 $22,000
31 mpg 26 mpg 55 mpg

Don't forget that these are all EPA numbers, not real world data. My twelve year old E300 diesel gets a "real" 33 mpg. That's pretty good for a car that weighs in at 4000 pounds. My Ram 2500 gets a "real" 22 mpg. That's pretty good for a truck that is just about 6000 pounds.

Fuel economy is all about mpg and I don't see the hybrids doing much to improve or conserve fuel. And at the price/mpg, there's certainly no reason to buy a hybrid. Not unless we all decide to ride around in the Prius golf cart.

In your list there, you have the prius with the best milage (by a wide margin) and also the lowest cost.

How does that jive with
"Fuel economy is all about mpg and I don't see the hybrids doing much to improve or conserve fuel. And at the price/mpg, there's certainly no reason to buy a hybrid. "

Are you taking drugs? w-t-f?

In your list there, you have the prius with the best milage (by a wide margin) and also the lowest cost.

How does that jive with
"Fuel economy is all about mpg and I don't see the hybrids doing much to improve or conserve fuel. And at the price/mpg, there's certainly no reason to buy a hybrid. "

Are you taking drugs? w-t-f?

You missed the part where he said something about driving around in a "Prius golfcart." Some folks just think the hybrids aren't ... I don't know, macho enough?

You missed the part where he said something about driving around in a "Prius golfcart." Some folks just think the hybrids aren't ... I don't know, macho enough?

I'm just wondering why he argues against his own data on cost and gas mileage.

I'm just wondering why he argues against his own data on cost and gas mileage.

That does seem to be a slip, doesn't it?

Prius sales are going from a point when you could sell a used Prius for more than you paid for it because despite large production numbers there was still a long wait to buy a new one. They increased production to meet that demand.

So to have that normalize after the production numbers went up is hardly cause to start digging the hybrid's grave.

Especially when you factor in, as mentioned, that it's no longer just the Prius and the Insight, but the Camry, Accord, Civic, Escape, etc etc.

I think that his price list, to be fair to him, was listing the prices of hybrids by Honda, Lexus and Toyota and that the Prius was the only hybrid with stratos reaching MPG, thus the whole 'golf cart' comment, as if it hasn't been the case that the smallest cars get the best gas millage.

Next year, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and VW will all be offering their diesels in the US. At least now we'll have some options.

I'd like to see the introduction of ethanol burning vehicles to the US.

I think the long term solution will be a variety of cars that run on a variety of fuels.

I'd like to see the introduction of ethanol burning vehicles to the US.

I think the long term solution will be a variety of cars that run on a variety of fuels.

They have them now, or what they call 'flex fuel' cars, but in all reality it's just a way for American manufacturers to side step minimum average MPG requirements. Not to mention we seem bent on taking it from corn, and the way we make corn has created a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico.

There is very few places to actually get E85. But the mileage is only calculated on the 15% gasoline in that regardless of the fact that most users will use 100% gasoline, and then a manufacturer who is still trying to make all its money on 'light' trucks gets around MPG requirements.

We ignore that places like Brazil exist where they make their ethonal from sugar and run a lot of cars on that, as well as things like the McDonalds truck fleet running on biodiesel derived from their own used cooking oil.

Let me try again. The hype is about fuel economy. We measure that in distance driven per amount of fuel, MPG, KPL, whatever. The numbers on hybrids aren't especially good, when they're compared to vehicles in the same class. My Mercedes beats the Lexus by about 5-6 mpg -- probably more because the Lexus numbers are EPA estimates, not actual data. My truck does almost as well as the Lexus estimates.

So my question remains, "Unless I want to drive around in a subcompact hybrid, why should I buy one at all?"

A couple of you are throwing out the red herring of fuel prices. That may cause some emotional forces to go to work and increase sales, but the fuel economy remains the same, unless the MPG values change as prices do. And I doubt that happens.

So my other question remains, as well. What does the hybrid technology really give us? It isn't a dramatic improvement in fuel economy.

They have them now, or what they call 'flex fuel' cars, but in all reality it's just a way for American manufacturers to side step minimum average MPG requirements. Not to mention we seem bent on taking it from corn, and the way we make corn has created a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico.
There is very few places to actually get E85. But the mileage is only calculated on the 15% gasoline in that regardless of the fact that most users will use 100% gasoline, and then a manufacturer who is still trying to make all its money on 'light' trucks gets around MPG requirements.

We ignore that places like Brazil exist where they make their ethonal from sugar and run a lot of cars on that, as well as things like the McDonalds truck fleet running on biodiesel derived from their own used cooking oil.

What? A dead zone in the Gulf? :confused:

Not sure about you lot in the States (i know you don't like Diesel over there and the diesel you do get is pants compared to the European stuff) but here you can buy small diesel engined cars that get a real world MPG which is as good if not better then the prius.

And thats another things, why are Hybrids fitted with petrol engines and not diesels?

Not sure about you lot in the States (i know you don't like Diesel over there and the diesel you do get is pants compared to the European stuff) but here you can buy small diesel engined cars that get a real world MPG which is as good if not better then the prius.

And thats another things, why are Hybrids fitted with petrol engines and not diesels?

Actually, it's because until 2006 or so, US diesel fuel was not clean enough for diesel engines to meet emissions standards. As a result, diesels weren't able to really enter the market until last year.

Now, there are a number of diesels coming to market in the next few years, so this might change in the near future.

Really? I just read that hybrid sales are up 10% year over year despite the drop in oil prices.

The only reason hybrids don't sell well now is because gas prices are falling. Every single year since they have been introduced, hybrid sales fall during the winter and rise going in to the spring and summer. It's an entirely predictable pattern. Also, once we start seeing $3-$4 again, we'll be seeing more sales. And you're going to be seeing that quite soon, if not this year than in the near future.

Plus, you have to take in to account that the Prius isn't the only hybrid; there are hybrid trucks, SUVs, and cars out there, and all of them offer significantly higher mileage than their comparable conventional models. In fact, a lot of brands are rolling out hybrid versions of their conventional vehicles for only a small additional cost; the economics of hybrid technology simply make sense, and they're going to continue to grow rapidly in to the foreseeable future.

Wasteful vehicles are dying, plain and simple...almost nobody's buying them, and that's why so many companies are working to improve fuel economy or integrate hybrid technology in to their vehicles. It's the next generation of the automobile; the conventional ICE is outdated and it's getting hard to push it further...that's where hybrids come in.

As it turns out, Toyota isn't happy with it's market share, or the bad rep it got from dealers tacking on a grand to the suggested retail price. The incentives are promotions to increase share, not stop a falling share.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aVhYanUNrpto&refer=home

And the mileage isn't significantly better, except maybe for the Prius. It's only marginal in the bigger sedans and hybrid trucks lag their diesel counterparts. So it doesn't matter if that $3-$4 per gallon goes to a hybrid or a conventional car, if the MPG isn't better, you still spend more.

Not unless we all decide to ride around in the Prius golf cart.

Hey! :mad:

I can fit over seventy clowns in a Prius! :D

Not sure about you lot in the States (i know you don't like Diesel over there and the diesel you do get is pants compared to the European stuff) but here you can buy small diesel engined cars that get a real world MPG which is as good if not better then the prius.

And thats another things, why are Hybrids fitted with petrol engines and not diesels?

You are asking the right questions. I think we're afraid of soot.

Hey! :mad:

I can fit over seventy clowns in a Prius! :D

I figured they were good for something.

Not sure about you lot in the States (i know you don't like Diesel over there and the diesel you do get is pants compared to the European stuff) but here you can buy small diesel engined cars that get a real world MPG which is as good if not better then the prius.

And thats another things, why are Hybrids fitted with petrol engines and not diesels?
Diesels make the bulk of their power at the low end where the bulk of regenerating power comes from higher RPMs, so a petrol engine is better suited for hybrid use. That being said, there are companies coming out with diesel hybrids.
Actually, it's because until 2006 or so, US diesel fuel was not clean enough for diesel engines to meet emissions standards. As a result, diesels weren't able to really enter the market until last year.

Now, there are a number of diesels coming to market in the next few years, so this might change in the near future.
Well, there where still changes to be made. There is an exhaust scrubber system that Mercedes has come out with that has allowed the German manufacturers to re-enter the US market with diesels.

Last years absolute dominance of the diesel powered Audi R10 has legitimized and modernized diesels image a bit, and this year when the R10 meets Puegot's diesel racer it should only get better.

Actually, it's because until 2006 or so, US diesel fuel was not clean enough for diesel engines to meet emissions standards. As a result, diesels weren't able to really enter the market until last year.

Now, there are a number of diesels coming to market in the next few years, so this might change in the near future.

Are you kidding? Volkswagen sold diesels in America all the way up until 2006. The new EPA regulations actually forced Volkswagen to stop diesel production for the year 2006. They have now changed their diesel engines from a pumpe-dussel fuel injection to common-rail to meet the new standards. Considering that diesels already produced less polution than gasoline, the EPA's new standards seemed pretty unfair to automakers trying to sell diesels in America. There are even rumors that the new standards were pressed into law by competing automaker's lobbyists(like GM). Also, the fact that petrol diesel sold in America is less clean than diesel sold in Europe means that the European automakers(volkswagen/daimlerchrytsler) have to change and replace fuel systems on cars they bring to America. Another needless wall put in the face of foreign diesel car manufacturers.

On another note, why would anyone buy a hybrid? Diesels out-preform them in every way. A diesel VW Lupo gets 20 mpg better than a prius and still accelerates better.

I was listening to a story on the radio about hybrid sales. Turns out they're on the wane -- dealers are having to offer incentives to get normal people to buy the green machines. I started looking at some of the prices and instantly figured out why they're becoming unpopular.

For more than a similar gas engined car, you can have a car with slightly better fuel economy.

Let's look...
Honda Lexus Prius
$33,000 $55,000 $22,000
31 mpg 26 mpg 55 mpg

Don't forget that these are all EPA numbers, not real world data. My twelve year old E300 diesel gets a "real" 33 mpg. That's pretty good for a car that weighs in at 4000 pounds. My Ram 2500 gets a "real" 22 mpg. That's pretty good for a truck that is just about 6000 pounds.

Fuel economy is all about mpg and I don't see the hybrids doing much to improve or conserve fuel. And at the price/mpg, there's certainly no reason to buy a hybrid. Not unless we all decide to ride around in the Prius golf cart.
Assuming someone hasn't already pointed this out, Toyota and Honda hybrids are on the wane, largely because the protectionist tax breaks that Congress put on them a couple of years ago have ended for those companies--they were capped out. Hybrid sales for US companies--which were very late to the game--are doing quite well. The tax breaks have made them competitive.

As far as the mileage is concerned, the hybrid is only a significantly better deal if you drive small distances around town, not if you put it on the highway. But if all you do is tool around town, it's easy to get 60+mpg on a Prius. I've known half a dozen who've done just that, in San Francisco with the hills and everything.

I'm just wondering why he argues against his own data on cost and gas mileage.

He's a neo-conservative -- he doesn't need reasons. Just volume.

Are you kidding? Volkswagen sold diesels in America all the way up until 2006. The new EPA regulations actually forced Volkswagen to stop diesel production for the year 2006. They have now changed their diesel engines from a pumpe-dussel fuel injection to common-rail to meet the new standards. Considering that diesels already produced less polution than gasoline, the EPA's new standards seemed pretty unfair to automakers trying to sell diesels in America. There are even rumors that the new standards were pressed into law by competing automaker's lobbyists(like GM). Also, the fact that petrol diesel sold in America is less clean than diesel sold in Europe means that the European automakers(volkswagen/daimlerchrytsler) have to change and replace fuel systems on cars they bring to America. Another needless wall put in the face of foreign diesel car manufacturers.

On another note, why would anyone buy a hybrid? Diesels out-preform them in every way. A diesel VW Lupo gets 20 mpg better than a prius and still accelerates better.

You answered your last paragraph with your first. We don't get the Lupo here.

Hell, we just barely got the Smart last year, and that's barely.

Here there aren't that many places to fuel up a diesel. That will change as more of them get on the road, which will happen this year as Audi, Mercedes, BMW and VW all bring diesels to the American market and even the big trucks are now sold more and more often with diesel engines.

Let me try again. The hype is about fuel economy. We measure that in distance driven per amount of fuel, MPG, KPL, whatever. The numbers on hybrids aren't especially good, when they're compared to vehicles in the same class. My Mercedes beats the Lexus by about 5-6 mpg -- probably more because the Lexus numbers are EPA estimates, not actual data. My truck does almost as well as the Lexus estimates.

So my question remains, "Unless I want to drive around in a subcompact hybrid, why should I buy one at all?"

A couple of you are throwing out the red herring of fuel prices. That may cause some emotional forces to go to work and increase sales, but the fuel economy remains the same, unless the MPG values change as prices do. And I doubt that happens.

So my other question remains, as well. What does the hybrid technology really give us? It isn't a dramatic improvement in fuel economy.

Okay.

You're comparing vehicles across class boundaries, first of all. How your truck compares to a Lexus doesn't mean a thing. How a Lexus Hybrid compares with the SAME LEXUS WITHOUT the hybrid engine is the comparison you need to make. If the Lexus Hybrid gets 10+ mpg better than the original Lexus with no hybrid, then that's the improvement. The same thing goes for the Honda Accord V6 Hybrid. It's a Hybrid V6, so those who like the power a V6 offers can have their power and better mileage, too.

Kudos on your truck's mileage, by the way. Most folks in such vehicles don't drive them in a way that accentuates mileage. Some do the whole lift-kit or other modifications that negatively affect mileage. Congratulations on being a truck nonconformist.

Here there aren't that many places to fuel up a diesel. That will change as more of them get on the road, which will happen this year as Audi, Mercedes, BMW and VW all bring diesels to the American market and even the big trucks are now sold more and more often with diesel engines.

Diesel in large vehicles just plain makes sense. IIRC, not only do you get significantly better mileage but you also get more towing capacity because of the diesel engine. Plus, with the arrival of new ultra-low sulfur diesel and the increase in stations offering the fuel in coming years it will not only be easier but also much cleaner than ever to fill up with diesel.

Not to mention it will get cheaper as it becomes more available, more in line with gasoline than it currently is.

Here there aren't that many places to fuel up a diesel.
I don't know where 'here' is, but you have truck stops, I'm sure. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but if you owned a diesel, I'd bet you could find a good number of places to fill up.

Okay.

You're comparing vehicles across class boundaries, first of all. How your truck compares to a Lexus doesn't mean a thing. How a Lexus Hybrid compares with the SAME LEXUS WITHOUT the hybrid engine is the comparison you need to make. If the Lexus Hybrid gets 10+ mpg better than the original Lexus with no hybrid, then that's the improvement. The same thing goes for the Honda Accord V6 Hybrid. It's a Hybrid V6, so those who like the power a V6 offers can have their power and better mileage, too.

Kudos on your truck's mileage, by the way. Most folks in such vehicles don't drive them in a way that accentuates mileage. Some do the whole lift-kit or other modifications that negatively affect mileage. Congratulations on being a truck nonconformist.
The example with the truck was to illustrate that the Lexus had nothing to brag about when a 6000 truck probably bests it in real mileage. The comparison between luxury cars is much more valid. My Mercedes beats the pants off the Lexus in mileage and is probably neck and neck with the Accord. The fact is that hybrids are mostly hype, when it comes to good mileage. The notable exception is the Prius, but I can't put a load of hay in the back, nor can I drive it comfortably for 700 miles. (That's how far the Mercedes goes before I need more fuel.)

And, by the way, I just drive the truck the way it was meant to be driven. I can hook up a trailer full of horses and it gets around 20+ mpg. Empty, it's a little better, but not much. The fanciest thing about the truck are the stainless bed rails I just put on. And I leave the tailgate UP.