NationStates Jolt Archive

Armed US police could be on London streets (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=12Q14CGJIDYXBQFIQMGCFGGAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2007/02/06/nolympics106.xml)

By Brendan Carlin and John Steele
Last Updated: 10:01am GMT 06/02/2007

Armed foreign police could patrol the streets of London during the 2012 Olympics under an unprecedented scenario outlined by one of Scotland Yard’s most senior officers.

Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur, the man in charge of security preparations for the Games and Britain’s most senior Muslim police officer, also raised the prospect of British troops being drafted in to help with the huge security challenges.

Security experts are privately debating how to protect the Olympics from terror attacks from Islamic extremist “jihadi” terrorists in London, especially in the wake of the 7/7 terrorist atrocities in London in which four British-born jihadi suicide bombers killed 52 people.

This is such a bad idea. Mind you....they could sort out the East End once and for all....

Armed US police could be on London streets (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=12Q14CGJIDYXBQFIQMGCFGGAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2007/02/06/nolympics106.xml)



This is such a bad idea. Mind you....they could sort out the East End once and for all....

Erm, why would they need US police...? Is the constabulary in the UK that ineffective?

And then there's this, also from the same article...

"The use of firearms in the UK is ruled by the legal principle of “reasonable force.” Any outside officers would have to apply by British law.'

I like this bit:

"The use of firearms in the UK is ruled by the legal principle of “reasonable force.” Any outside officers would have to apply by British law."

By the way the law is being applied now, any arrests or attempts to arrest the officers make would land them in jail instead of the criminal.

Erm, why would they need US police...? Is the constabulary in the UK that ineffective?

Only against actual criminals. Now if you're an old lady defending yourself or a restaurant owner stopping a kid who assaulted customers and broke windows, then the police will have you in jail in a heartbeat.

Given the luck that we have patrolling streets in other nations, adding US strength to Olympic defenses is ASKING for trouble...

And then there's this, also from the same article...

And I'm sure the US military will follow that.

What kind of US Police? Local cops who are likely to pull someone over randomly and plant a bag of drugs on him to make themselves look effective or shoot a guy a few dozen times because he was reaching for his wallet? State police who usually are more professional?

We shall bring just a Legion or two of police across the pond. It's not like we're crossing the rubicon or anything.

Oh Fuck No!! that's just ridiculous! and why US police, of all the possible foreign police forces, why the ones who shoot first and ask questions later?

Oh Fuck No!! that's just ridiculous! and why US police, of all the possible foreign police forces, why the ones who shoot first and ask questions later?

Hey! That's a disgusting misrepresentation of fact! You should show more respect for our brave men and woman!

Sometimes they ask questions, then shoot. Or shoot and not ask questions at all.

And then there's this, also from the same article...

I like this bit:

"The use of firearms in the UK is ruled by the legal principle of “reasonable force.” Any outside officers would have to apply by British law."

By the way the law is being applied now, any arrests or attempts to arrest the officers make would land them in jail instead of the criminal.

"reasonable force" means "don't aim for the head or heart unless absolutely necessary". although they've been forgetting that recently.

Oh Fuck No!! that's just ridiculous! and why US police, of all the possible foreign police forces, why the ones who shoot first and ask questions later?

That's really cute.

That's really cute.

well, excuse me if i object to the idea of allowing a load of trigger-happy yeehaws to patrol the streets of a place where the police are expected to use considerable restraint in the control of citizens.

well, excuse me if i object to the idea of allowing a load of trigger-happy yeehaws to patrol the streets of a place where the police are expected to use considerable restraint in the control of citizens.

He's got a point. The police are trained to capture, whereas soldiers are trained to kill.

We shall bring just a Legion or two of police across the pond. It's not like we're crossing the rubicon or anything.

:D

I don't see Bush as Caesar though...

If you take last year's football championship in Germany as an example, the cooperation between our police and foreign police officers worked just great. Maybe they have something similar in mind for 2012?

Oh Fuck No!! that's just ridiculous! and why US police, of all the possible foreign police forces, why the ones who shoot first and ask questions later?

You've been watching too many movies. I suggest you get reacquainted with reality.

Erm, why would they need US police...? Is the constabulary in the UK that ineffective?

Never do something yourself when you can get someone else to do it for you..?

Hey the Greeks asked for NATO assistance during the Olympics in Athens. This is not that much different. The UK asking fellow NATO members for help in a potentially high terrorist threat enviroment. The UK as powerful as it is could use the help. Even after the US was attacked in 2001 it was NATO AWACS flying off the east coast with French Military crews. Friends help each other, thats how it should be.

well, excuse me if i object to the idea of allowing a load of trigger-happy yeehaws to patrol the streets of a place where the police are expected to use considerable restraint in the control of citizens.

Get off it and cut the polemics.

American police are not "trigger-happy yeehaws".

Armed US police could be on London streets (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=12Q14CGJIDYXBQFIQMGCFGGAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2007/02/06/nolympics106.xml)



This is such a bad idea. Mind you....they could sort out the East End once and for all....

Holy crap. I am fucking ashamed to be an American.

Holy crap. I am fucking ashamed to be an American.

Why? We didn't have anything to do with this.

Why? We didn't have anything to do with this.

Aye, the Brits are just thinking about having international cops around during the Olympics. That actually seems to be a decent enough idea.

Holy crap. I am fucking ashamed to be an American.

Why would you even say that? Why would you be ashamed of fellow citizens helping out in another friendly nation? Were you ashamed of the Tsunami relief?

You've been watching too many movies. I suggest you get reacquainted with reality.

Get off it and cut the polemics.

American police are not "trigger-happy yeehaws".

you don't get a reputation by doing nothing (except one for doing nothing, obviously).

well, excuse me if i object to the idea of allowing a load of trigger-happy yeehaws to patrol the streets of a place where the police are expected to use considerable restraint in the control of citizens.

Evidently you've never heard of something called a "lawsuit." More specifically, I refer to a "wrongful death suit." Also, I guess you don't have a thing over there called the "Internal Affairs Division," something which seems to do its job. Get a clue and realize that Hollywood is in no way an accurate depiction of life on the street for the average police officer.

But hey, that's just me, the uncivilized American speaking. I guess the next time you have bombs set off by homegrown terrorists in London we shouldn't be sending in FBI personnel to help out Scotland Yard.

Holy crap. I am fucking ashamed to be an American.

I'd be far more ashamed if something happened because we weren't there to help.

Holy crap. I am fucking ashamed to be an American.

:rolleyes:

I'm sure there's at least a few people here in the US that are ashamed that you're an American, too.

you don't get a reputation by doing nothing (except one for doing nothing, obviously).

Yes, and stereotypes are formed when people repeat the same lies and misconceptions over and over.

you don't get a reputation by doing nothing (except one for doing nothing, obviously).

The Klan says the exact same thing about black folks.

You're making a shockingly hasty, false generalization.

A few things people...

Firstly...its only an idea...its not going to happen...yet...if even at all.

Secondly there have been a few pretty hectic posts...cool it! :p

Thirdly -

I think this is a bad idea for a number of reasons. We do have armed police. They operate under very strict guidelines and still people who should not have been shot have been.

With all due respect to our American friends policing is very different over here. If the American police are unarmed, given no powers of arrest but are used for crowd control I see no problem with that.

I do see a problem with an American LEO arresting some one here though. Our laws are not the same (hence no power of arrest).

I have a major problem if the American LEOs are armed. That would be insane.

Evidently you've never heard of something called a "lawsuit." More specifically, I refer to a "wrongful death suit." Also, I guess you don't have a thing over there called the "Internal Affairs Division," something which seems to do its job. of course we do, or equivalents. that doesn't make police shootings and other excessive uses of force okay. a system of redress does not bring people back to life or re-establish what lives they might have left.

But hey, that's just me, the uncivilized American speaking. I guess the next time you have bombs set off by homegrown terrorists in London we shouldn't be sending in FBI personnel to help out Scotland Yard.

we've never needed the FBI to help with homegrown terrorists before, why should we now? terrorism has been happening in britain long before the US even existed, the US does not have the authority on anti-terrorism methods. if the past 6 years has been anything to go by the US has next to no authority on them. much better to get german, french or spanish police in to assist. they are countries with extensive knowledge and experience in dealing with terrorism.

If anything, I'd support bringing in police from other countries with large numbers of people expecting to be in attendance at the Olympics. In instances where the citizens of other states come into conflict of the police, the police of their home country could be called in to deal with them (according to the laws of the UK, of course).

well, excuse me if i object to the idea of allowing a load of trigger-happy yeehaws to patrol the streets of a place where the police are expected to use considerable restraint in the control of citizens.

You must watch alot of Hollywood movies. Really now, you honestly believe American police are gunning down people in droves?

This could sap the UK's strategic doughnut reserve.

This could sap the UK's strategic doughnut reserve.

Finally a legitimate objection! :D

You must watch alot of American movies. Really now, you honestly believe American police are gunning down people in droves?

You have to consider what Europeans watch as far as American shows go. As I lived in the UK and travelled large parts of Europe. The four main TV shows I saw were in this order: Cops, Jerry Springer, south park and the Simpsons. Now if you only got your information about America from these shows. How would you view America?

well, excuse me if i object to the idea of allowing a load of trigger-happy yeehaws to patrol the streets of a place where the police are expected to use considerable restraint in the control of citizens.

according to your laws(englands)you probably would not want american "soldiers' patrolling because they are trained to shoot first mostly.
allthough this past month a bunch of guard guys almost got into a firefight with an armed gang of drug runners down on our southern border.
oddly enough though,there roe would not permit them to fire(which i find stupid..another thread) unless fired upon,so they withdrew.
not exactly trigger happy really...and followed the roe..commendably i might add.
i probably would have been scared witless seeing an armed gang out in the desert and may have reacted poorly to the potential threat...maybe not.

as far as american police...i am no fan of cops here...read a post of mine where i was beaten unconscious,suffered a broken cheekbone/eyesocket and ribs..all while cuffed.
they are in the most part decent guys doing a shitty job.
if they are not asked to generate revenue,or go after drugs for your guv.,your safe.
american cops are mostly educated,state troopers very educated.

it is somewhat offensive to me(and i am not a big fan of cops)to here them portrayed as yahoo's running amuck,when that simply is not reality.
as with all occupations/religions/groups of anything...there are bad apples in every orchard.

i would think the possibility of american cops being sent to england is slim to none either way,so i guess the whole point is moot.

maybe some of our counter intel people,or rapid responce teams,but i am sure england is set in that department as well.

You have to consider what Europeans watch as far as American shows go. As I lived in the UK and travelled large parts of Europe. The four main TV shows I saw were in this order: Cops, Jerry Springer, south park and the Simpsons. Now if you only got your information about America from these shows. How would you view America?

Hehe. I'd think we lived in a violent, rude, fucked up country. True in some ways though of course totally inaccurate. I find it more amusing that people outside of America watch Jerry Springer. Warms my heart to know that there are Europeans shouting "JERRY! JERRY! JERRY! JERRY!" :D

A few things people...

Firstly...its only an idea...its not going to happen...yet...if even at all.

Secondly there have been a few pretty hectic posts...cool it! :p

Thirdly -

I think this is a bad idea for a number of reasons. We do have armed police. They operate under very strict guidelines and still people who should not have been shot have been.

With all due respect to our American friends policing is very different over here. If the American police are unarmed, given no powers of arrest but are used for crowd control I see no problem with that.

I do see a problem with an American LEO arresting some one here though. Our laws are not the same (hence no power of arrest).

I have a major problem if the American LEOs are armed. That would be insane.

yeh, sorry. i guess i just needed to let off some steam. it just seemed like yet another example of britain capitulating to some perceived 'betterness' of US security measures/forces which is an attitude expressed by many posters on here.

yes my main problem is that, as you say, policing is very different here. armed american police operating on british soil is simply a recipe for disaster.

@ everyone else. yeh i know american police are not continuously shooting everyone up, but the recent attitudes coming out of america regarding anti-terrorism and security measures are just a little worrisome and the prospect of them being exported to britain is even more so. i'm sorry that i exaggerated my position. :)

This could sap the UK's strategic doughnut reserve.

lol...

;)

yeh, sorry. i guess i just needed to let off some steam. it just seemed like yet another example of britain capitulating to some perceived 'betterness' of US security measures/forces which is an attitude expressed by many posters on here.

yes my main problem is that, as you say, policing is very different here. armed american police operating on british soil is simply a recipe for disaster.

@ everyone else. yeh i know american police are not continuously shooting everyone up, but the recent attitudes coming out of america regarding anti-terrorism and security measures are just a little worrisome and the prospect of them being exported to britain is even more so. i'm sorry that i exaggerated my position. :)

;) is cool....my initial reaction was...oh fuck...LA riots here we come!

;) is cool....my initial reaction was...oh fuck...LA riots here we come!

mine too, i just have no restraint. it's why i'm not going to be in the police ;)

mine too, i just have no restraint. it's why i'm not going to be in the police ;)

LOL! How would have handled the Krays? ;)

it says Foreign officers. so it's may not be just US or Isreali officers involved.

It's ok to have British officers operating in Germany, but God forbid foreign officers operating in London? Hypocracy anyone?
But in an interview today with the Parliamentary Monitor, Mr Ghaffur raised the precedent of British police officers serving in Germany during the 2006 World Cup as one way of coping with the huge security challenge.

they can restrict the officers to their individual country's compound.

also, think of it as an opportunity to show the Yanks how to police without guns. ;)

I like this bit:

"The use of firearms in the UK is ruled by the legal principle of “reasonable force.” Any outside officers would have to apply by British law."

Which is why the cops need random samurai sword holding viligantes saving their asses from knife welding crooks.


By the way the law is being applied now, any arrests or attempts to arrest the officers make would land them in jail instead of the criminal.

Sad when the criminal gets more rights than the victims.

well, excuse me if i object to the idea of allowing a load of trigger-happy yeehaws to patrol the streets of a place where the police are expected to use considerable restraint in the control of citizens.
How about the French police, who supposedly carry automatic weapons?

LOL! How would have handled the Krays? ;)

god knows! i'd've probably thrown a tantrum right back at them. with nails knocked into it. or more probably would have joined them had i been an eastender.

it says Foreign officers. so it's may not be just US or Isreali officers involved.

It's ok to have British officers operating in Germany, but God forbid foreign officers operating in London? Hypocracy anyone?


they can restrict the officers to their individual country's compound.

also, think of it as an opportunity to show the Yanks how to police without guns. ;)

Well its a bit more than just officers working in Germany. They were specific officers who had experience of policing football games AND aware of the well know hooligans (most of whom (about 3000) were actually prevented from traveling to Germany).

Like I said earlier...if they are not armed and had no power of arrest I can grok that...if they are armed...then I have a problem.

All your London are belong to U.S.

Well its a bit more than just officers working in Germany. They were specific officers who had experience of policing football games AND aware of the well know hooligans (most of whom (about 3000) were actually prevented from traveling to Germany).

Like I said earlier...if they are not armed and had no power of arrest I can grok that...if they are armed...then I have a problem.

I can see armed the same as the local officers assigned to patrol the Olympics.

I can see armed the same as the local officers assigned to patrol the Olympics.

Then they will have CS gas and a telescopic truncheon....not entirely sure how they will deal with arrests and the like...or dealing with hacked off Londoners LOL

Then they will have CS gas and a telescopic truncheon....not entirely sure how they will deal with arrests and the like...or dealing with hacked off Londoners LOL

the first weapon the US cops reach for is not the gun, their hand is ready to draw, but for normal take downs, the Truncheon (baton, night stick, etc) is the first weapon they draw when faced with an unarmed person.

but isn't there special units that are armed with firearms?

Another concern: High-speed car chases on the wrong side of the road.

American cops, by labor regulation, are required to participate in at least one high-speed car chase per 8 hour shift. Extensive training would have to be applied to keep these chases on the correct side of the road. Additionally, when an American lawman catches a suspect he is obliged by our constitution to identify himself with the legal phrase: "Freeze, MotherFucker!"
This, too, might need to be modified in the U.K. for cultural reasons.

Other than that, everything should be just fine.

Another concern: High-speed car chases on the wrong side of the road.

American cops, by labor regulation, are required to participate in at least one high-speed car chase per 8 hour shift. Extensive training would have to be applied to keep these chases on the correct side of the road. Additionally, when an American lawman catches a suspect he is obliged by our constitution to identify himself with the legal phrase: "Freeze, MotherFucker!"
This, too, might need to be modified in the U.K. for cultural reasons.

Other than that, everything should be just fine.

i can see where this also would be a problem. hadn't thought of that. right, disarm them and make them leave their driving licenses at customs, then we should all be fine :p

the first weapon the US cops reach for is not the gun, their hand is ready to draw, but for normal take downs, the Truncheon (baton, night stick, etc) is the first weapon they draw when faced with an unarmed person.

but isn't there special units that are armed with firearms?

The Met (London Police) run CO19 (formerly called SO19). They train all the police forces.

They have their own web site - http://www.met.police.uk/co19/


The policy is set by the ACPO (Association of Police Officers) -

http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/firearms.pdf

Another concern: High-speed car chases on the wrong side of the road.

American cops, by labor regulation, are required to participate in at least one high-speed car chase per 8 hour shift. Extensive training would have to be applied to keep these chases on the correct side of the road. Additionally, when an American lawman catches a suspect he is obliged by our constitution to identify himself with the legal phrase: "Freeze, MotherFucker!"
This, too, might need to be modified in the U.K. for cultural reasons.

Other than that, everything should be just fine.


police pursuits

http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/brunstrom_guide_man_pol_pursuits_2004a1_web_27x02x04.doc

the drivers manual - 5meg...

http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/diving_manual.pdf

pursuit driver training...

http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/pursuit.doc

denying criminals the use of the roads

http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/anpr_strat_2005-08_march05_12x04x05.doc

motorcycle enforcement strategy

http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/motorcycle_enforcement_strategy_website_22x06x06.doc

Policing motorways

http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/guide_policing_motorways_april2006_03x05x06.pdf

Another concern: High-speed car chases on the wrong side of the road.

American cops, by labor regulation, are required to participate in at least one high-speed car chase per 8 hour shift. Extensive training would have to be applied to keep these chases on the correct side of the road. Additionally, when an American lawman catches a suspect he is obliged by our constitution to identify himself with the legal phrase: "Freeze, MotherFucker!"
This, too, might need to be modified in the U.K. for cultural reasons.

Other than that, everything should be just fine.

that was just.....outstanding!

i just spit beer on my keyboard...and yet i still thank you..i needed a good laugh.

you did leave out their new found fondness for tazering the crap out of people not jumping when told to jump.

i loved the highspeed chase comment,that was what i supposedly engaged them in.(went around the corner to pull over instead of a pulling over on a busy highway..maybe 25-50 feet)

oh and one other cultural hurdle...

us americans have the ability to decipher the real meaning of 5 armed men yelling.."get out of the car....dont move...put your hands up...put your hands on the wheel...whats your name...shut the fuck up...quit resisting..i'm not...punch...get on the ground...i'm on the ground...shut the fuck up...

i think the more proper english would have a bit of trouble deciphering the contradictory orders shouted in rapid succession by 5 armed men....then us americans,as we are getting use to the language.
it is a skill that requires first being engaged in...then sitting in a cell for days to ponder which order was the order you were really suppose to respond too.
the others are merely extraneous shouts to test your skills..when every one knows the real meaning of the barrage of shouts..or should.(ie...read...sitting in the cell to ponder point)

as an american who as recently driven on the left side of the road, i didn't find it all that difficult to stay on that side... (but then again, i wasn't driving in high-stressful situations, unless you count driving with malaysians on the road stresful :P)

Another concern: High-speed car chases on the wrong side of the road.

American cops, by labor regulation, are required to participate in at least one high-speed car chase per 8 hour shift. Extensive training would have to be applied to keep these chases on the correct side of the road. Additionally, when an American lawman catches a suspect he is obliged by our constitution to identify himself with the legal phrase: "Freeze, MotherFucker!"
This, too, might need to be modified in the U.K. for cultural reasons.

Other than that, everything should be just fine.


I really hope you were kidding, because your statement is full of male bovine excrement.

I really hope you were kidding, because your statement is full of male bovine excrement.

You're wrong. It's all true.

You're wrong. It's all true.

:rolleyes:

I had 1 uncle that was a state trooper (until he retired), and have 1 uncle and 3 cousins that are still police officers. None have been involved in high speed car chases during their careers.

:rolleyes:

I had 1 uncle that was a state trooper (until he retired), and have 1 uncle and 3 cousins that are still police officers. None have been involved in high speed car chases during their careers.

They are lying to you.

This could sap the UK's strategic doughnut reserve.

I have to say, once in a while, someone on NS says something very funny, for a moment, it feels like the differences melt away, and we're are very briefly a family...

NOW, ON WITH THE DEBATE!

Another concern: High-speed car chases on the wrong side of the road.

American cops, by labor regulation, are required to participate in at least one high-speed car chase per 8 hour shift. Extensive training would have to be applied to keep these chases on the correct side of the road. Additionally, when an American lawman catches a suspect he is obliged by our constitution to identify himself with the legal phrase: "Freeze, MotherFucker!"
This, too, might need to be modified in the U.K. for cultural reasons.

Other than that, everything should be just fine.

Another example of joyous levity.

Do you think there are a lot of Black police chiefs in the U.K.?

This is riddiculous....Everyone knows all you need is Dog the bounty hunter in London. He'll have the place straightened out in a matter of days.

Now if you're an old lady defending yourself or a restaurant owner stopping a kid who assaulted customers and broke windows, then the police will have you in jail in a heartbeat.

Offhand, I can't think of any cases like that. Maybe they were reported in the Daily Mail, but that doesn't mean they actually happened.

Not surprising seeing as we keep stealing your coppers.

Another example of joyous levity.

Do you think there are a lot of Black police chiefs in the U.K.?

Only one, Mike Fullerton, Chief Constable of my local force, Kent Police

I really hope you were kidding, because your statement is full of male bovine excrement.

Clearly you need to learn how to lighten up. I found it to be quite entertaining. Besides, without the profanity how are criminals to know that the officer is serious? Asking politely, "Sir, would you please lie on the ground so you can be arrested and taken in to custody?", simply won't work. Officers need to scream phrases like "Get the fuck down!" Or maybe "Get the fuck down motherfucker or I'll blow your fucking head off!" I know I would certainly pay VERY close attention to cop in that case. :D

Oh Fuck No!! that's just ridiculous! and why US police, of all the possible foreign police forces, why the ones who shoot first and ask questions later?

Britty-Land could be the 51st state!!! It'll be fun!

well, excuse me if i object to the idea of allowing a load of trigger-happy yeehaws to patrol the streets of a place where the police are expected to use considerable restraint in the control of citizens.
Of course, I mean, the British police are such nice and kind folks. Its not like they'd ever chase an innocent man through a subway, tackle him to the ground, and then start unloading bullets into the back of his head based solely on the fact that they thought he looked a little suspicious.
Oh, whoops. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1535246,00.html)

The main proplem I forsee is that Americans have totally different ways of handling stiuations than us Brits. Watch any RL British cop program and then compare it to any American version.

Of course, I mean, the British police are such nice and kind folks. Its not like they'd ever chase an innocent man through a subway, tackle him to the ground, and then start unloading bullets into the back of his head based solely on the fact that they thought he looked a little suspicious.
Oh, whoops. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1535246,00.html)

that case was an absolute tragedy. but it is something that can rarely ever happen because we don't trust our police to carry guns as a matter of course. this is because we recognise that all people are fallable and are especially so in uncertain circumstances. it is contentious to allow british police to carry weapons in britain, let alone foreign police that have a popular reputation to be trigger happy, from a country that has many who would defend the right to shoot someone in defence of property. we do not want that kind of behaviour or philosophy over here, hence the strenuous objections.

Of course, I mean, the British police are such nice and kind folks. Its not like they'd ever chase an innocent man through a subway, tackle him to the ground, and then start unloading bullets into the back of his head based solely on the fact that they thought he looked a little suspicious.
Oh, whoops. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1535246,00.html)

Yep. That is not a unique incident either. However I think you will find the number of deaths is actually quite small compared to say...California (roughly same population and living standard).

However the De Menizes killing was a total fuck up from start to finish...bad identification to attempts at a cover up by the head of the Met. However I'd rather these few horrendous mistakes than a totally armed police force. There would be a lot more deaths if all police were armed.

that case was an absolute tragedy. but it is something that can rarely ever happen because we don't trust our police to carry guns as a matter of course. this is because we recognise that all people are fallable and are especially so in uncertain circumstances. it is contentious to allow british police to carry weapons in britain, let alone foreign police that have a popular reputation to be trigger happy, from a country that has many who would defend the right to shoot someone in defence of property. we do not want that kind of behaviour or philosophy over here, hence the strenuous objections.

Pretty much.