NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm not talking about the "Ooo...I'm depressed and wear makeup!" People, more the "I cut myself" kinda people. Because it mostly seems to be the makeup people who show up more.

SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE: GO CRY RUFFY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have an idea. Let's make a thread on a forum on the internet where people can argue that they are more emo than their neighbor.

New Ritlina is ranking up there pretty quick.

I have an idea. Let's make a thread on a forum on the internet where people can argue that they are more emo than their neighbor.

Excellent.

I used to think I did, but it seems that he was just a cardboard cutout of Tom Cruise that someone had scribbled on with a black pen.

I used to cut myself, but it was back in the 80's so I don't think it was trendy then, I didn't know anyone else that did it until I ended up in the hospital and found out that it was quite common.

Do you know any "real" emos?


Just One:

http://www.oleswanson.com/images/emo.jpg

I met him at a superbowl party in the valley.

I'm not talking about the "Ooo...I'm depressed and wear makeup!" People, more the "I cut myself" kinda people. Because it mostly seems to be the makeup people who show up more.

Cutting isn't emo. Teenage angst isn't emo. Emo is a type of hardcore.

Cutting because you're "emo" is a kick-in-the-junkable offense.

Cutting isn't emo. Teenage angst isn't emo. Emo is a type of hardcore.

Cutting because you're "emo" is a kick-in-the-junkable offense.

Listen, it's picked up that meaning. If you don't like it, complain to the slang police.

Listen, it's picked up that meaning. If you don't like it, complain to the slang police.

most cutters aren't very open about it, because they don't do it for attention.

most cutters aren't very open about it, because they don't do it for attention.

True. But some people you notice scars or whatever.

True. But some people you notice scars or whatever.

nobody ever saw my scars.........well, until that time that I cut too deep, then the ER saw all of them.

nobody ever saw my scars.........well, until that time that I cut too deep, then the ER saw all of them.

Ouch.

I can't see you as a depressed teenager Smunkee...

Ouch.

I can't see you as a depressed teenager Smunkee...

I wasn't so much depressed as in a horrible amount of emotional pain and cutting was the only real "out" I had, I had shut off so much of myself so that I didn't have to feel the pain that I didn't really feel anything, other than the physical pain of cutting which actually felt good.


It's hard to explain, I guess.

Nö.

Nö.

You just got umlauted!!!

Listen, it's picked up that meaning. If you don't like it, complain to the slang police.

If all your friends jump off a bridge...

People who say emo to mean sad are just plain dumb. :)

You just got umlauted!!!
English "nope" is German "nö". :D

Cutting isn't Emo. Cutting is mental illness. Cutting has nothing to do with Emo, which is a kind of punk that has nothing to do with either depression or that shit on MTV.

How fucking hard is it to figure that out?

Cutting isn't Emo. Cutting is mental illness. Cutting has nothing to do with Emo, which is a kind of punk that has nothing to do with either depression or that shit on MTV.

How fucking hard is it to figure that out?

and even if we accept the mtv emo as emo, it still isn't cutting

Cutting isn't Emo. Cutting is mental illness.
actually it's not mental illness, in the sense that the cutting isn't the actual problem, but a symptom of a bigger problem.

I'm not talking about the "Ooo...I'm depressed and wear makeup!" People, more the "I cut myself" kinda people. Because it mostly seems to be the makeup people who show up more.

SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE: GO CRY RUFFY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I used to be depressed-emo, without the makeup and the shitty music, and less crying. But other than that, I don't knwo any real emos. Even I didn't cut myself.

and even if we accept the mtv emo as emo, it still isn't cutting

You win this thread.

actually it's not mental illness, in the sense that the cutting isn't the actual problem, but a symptom of a bigger problem.What if people do it for kicks?

actually it's not mental illness, in the sense that the cutting isn't the actual problem, but a symptom of a bigger problem.

Yeah, sorry. You're right.

What if people do it for kicks?

I don't know anyone who does......I guess they would just be masochists though.

All of the cutters I met that didn't do it for show, did it because they were in a lot of pain and had major problems in their life that they were unable or unwilling to change.

I don't know anyone who does......I guess they would just be masochists though.

All of the cutters I met that didn't do it for show, did it because they were in a lot of pain and had major problems in their life that they were unable or unwilling to change.

The 14 year old girls with pictures of their kitten scratches on their vainspace are just looking for attention.

2 real ones. I've no problem with them, as they have legitimate grievances with the world.

It's the fake ones that irk me.

What if people do it for kicks?

He's a got a point. Masochists, for example.

The 14 year old girls with pictures of their kitten scratches on their vainspace are just looking for attention.

maybe they have a deeper problem if they are cutting themselves for attention.

The 14 year old girls with pictures of their kitten scratches on their vainspace are just looking for attention.

That's probably true, if they're posting it on myspace.

maybe they have a deeper problem if they are cutting themselves for attention.

I certainly don't rule it out as a possibility.

I certainly don't rule it out as a possibility.

True. Probably not depression, but an inferiority or abandonment complex could be there.

I certainly don't rule it out as a possibility.

people hurt themselves for a lot of reasons, I used to hurt myself because it felt good, others maybe didn't like themselves, others want to be loved, and maybe the attention they get from parading scars around meets that need.

people hurt themselves for a lot of reasons, I used to hurt myself because it felt good, others maybe didn't like themselves, others want to be loved, and maybe the attention they get from parading scars around meets that need.

Or they were high. Or bored. There's an infinite number of reasons, to be honest.

Or they were high. Or bored. There's an infinite number of reasons, to be honest.

I didn't say there was a finite number of reasons.

although if you get bored and hurt yourself, you probably do have problems deeper than "boredom"

I didn't say there was a finite number of reasons.

although if you get bored and hurt yourself, you probably do have problems deeper than "boredom"

That's true. Although I have often said "Boredom makes you stupid". It tends to hold true.

That's true. Although I have often said "Boredom makes you stupid". It tends to hold true.

if you are bored you are boring.

I haven't the slightest clue what a "real emo" is, so I cannot answer the question.

I haven't the slightest clue what a "real emo" is, so I cannot answer the question.

Well at least you aren't trying to pretend to know about something that you know nothing about, then.

Well at least you aren't trying to pretend to know about something that you know nothing about, then.

:( that's no fun.

Well at least you aren't trying to pretend to know about something that you know nothing about, then.

But in this case, unlike usually, ignorance is a virtue. :)

But in this case, unlike usually, ignorance is a virtue. :)

In this case, since Emo has nothing to do with obnoxious Emptyveemo or with troubled teens and their chosen outlets, I assume that you are choosing to insult a form of hardcore punk near and dear to my own heart. :mad:

And you were doing so well. :p

:( that's no fun.

Sorry? I hate to see Emo so blatantly missused though. Emo has nothing to do with the stigmas that internet culture chooses to attribute to it. It's really annoying, tbh.

In this case, since Emo has nothing to do with obnoxious Emptyveemo or with troubled teens and their chosen outlets, I assume that you are choosing to insult a form of hardcore punk near and dear to my own heart. :mad:

No... just distancing myself from pointless arguments about what is and is not emo, and laughing at the "OMG you're an EMO!" people.

I have no opinion on art forms that I have no prolonged exposure to.

Sorry? I hate to see Emo so blatantly missused though. Emo has nothing to do with the stigmas that internet culture chooses to attribute to it. It's really annoying, tbh.

to tell you the truth I had never heard the word "Emo" outside of NSG about 6 months ago.

I still have no idea what the deal is.

Tickle Me Emo? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blk35pDBhLI)

Sorry? I hate to see Emo so blatantly missused though. Emo has nothing to do with the stigmas that internet culture chooses to attribute to it. It's really annoying, tbh.

Words change. Emo has a different meaning now, no matter how much you insist it doesn't. Language isn't perscriptive, it's descriptive.

Words change. Emo has a different meaning now, no matter how much you insist it doesn't. Language isn't perscriptive, it's descriptive.

As Haare said, just because everyone else is wrong, doesn't mean that you should accept their description. In this case, the way that record-label bosses have chosen to attach the name "Emo" to pop music masquerading as subculture. Their definition is accepted by the spoon-fed simpletons who hang on the words of the music elite, but it is not correct, and it is unfair to the hard working, genuinely subculture artists who really are emo.

As Haare said, just because everyone else is wrong, doesn't mean that you should accept their description. In this case, the way that record-label bosses have chosen to attach the name "Emo" to pop music masquerading as subculture. Their definition is accepted by the spoon-fed simpletons who hang on the words of the music elite, but it is not correct, and it is unfair to the hard working, genuinely subculture artists who really are emo.

Wow, elitism much?

I still have no idea what the deal is.

there is no deal, just whining

Wow, elitism much?

while the spoon fed simpletons part is over the top - can't expect everyone to keep up with the ins and outs of every musical genre and subculture - group z fighting back against well-known exploiters pilfering their group identity seems like an inherently just undertaking.

Wow, elitism much?

Wow, do you think I give a fuck much? Youth culture is vapid and wasteful enough, without trying to steal the work that others have done to have real counterculture and turn it into mainstream bullshit. I have no time for the vain twits who make up the vast majority of my peers, and I'm utterly unappologetic.

Tickle Me Emo? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Blk35pDBhLI)

That's not funny.

Wow, do you think I give a fuck much? Youth culture is vapid and wasteful enough, without trying to steal the work that others have done to have real counterculture and turn it into mainstream bullshit. I have no time for the vain twits who make up the vast majority of my peers, and I'm utterly unappologetic.

because YOU are just oh so special after all.

because YOU are just oh so special after all.

I'd rather be me than one of the posturing, self-important morons who populate mainstream culture. I don't really care how you choose to take it. I may be an "elitist" snob, but at least I'm not dishonest about it.

I'd rather be me than one of the posturing, self-important morons who populate mainstream culture. I don't really care how you choose to take it. I may be an "elitist" snob, but at least I'm not dishonest about it.

so in other words, you avoid being associated with a certain group of people, by....acting exactly like them in every respect, but with you it's different because you're honest about it?

In fairness I used to be that self important too.

Then I turned 16.

so in other words, you avoid being associated with a certain group of people, by....acting exactly like them in every respect, but with you it's different because you're honest about it?

No, but you make it sound cute, don't you? I may be a "snob" (although, to be fair, it isn't snobbery if I'm disgusted with the "qualiy" of their taste, rather than the lack thereof), but I'm a "snob" because I'm sick to death of seeing my art made a mockery of. Every time the mainstream adopts an underground form, they kill it. It becomes a shadow of what it once was, and loses all meaning. When its name is stolen and its legacy is perverted by mass marketers spewing easy-to-consume nonsense that makes people comfortable, all of the work that the artists, whose only real goal was to create a message (since they almost never made money), did is stolen.

I don't think that is fair. I think that the mainstream deserves to be scorned for doing that to hardworking, honest artists who don't let the sex and surrealism of the mainstream market subvert their work for the sake of success.

In fairness I used to be that self important too.

Then I turned 16.

Ah. You "grew up" and discovered that it was easier to not feel scornful and to let your frustration and alienation be "controlled".

Was it money or sex that convinced you? Both seem to be what "matures" people.

so in other words, you avoid being associated with a certain group of people, by....acting exactly like them in every respect, but with you it's different because you're honest about it?

In fairness I used to be that self important too.

Then I turned 16.

I am self important, it's pretty sweet.

No, but you make it sound cute, don't you? I may be a "snob" (although, to be fair, it isn't snobbery if I'm disgusted with the "qualiy" of their taste, rather than the lack thereof), but I'm a "snob" because I'm sick to death of seeing my art made a mockery of.

oh your art huh? Your art! Kid, if I recall correctly, you're barely old enough to have pubic hair, yet you expect me to take your claims about your "art" seriously?

Every time the mainstream adopts an underground form, they kill it. It becomes a shadow of what it once was, and loses all meaning.

If something is so shallow to you that it "loses all its meaning" if Nike happens to use it in a commercial, it probably didn't have any meaning to you in the first place.

How shallow that must be, to take something that "has meaning" apparently, and then to reject it because some aspect of it becomes corporatized. Maybe, JUST maybe the things that have so much "meaning" for you only do so because they weren't being used in "mainstream" and then when they start to, it's not that they lose meaning, but you can't continue to enjoy them and still continue your precious status of being "different"?

When its name is stolen and its legacy is perverted by mass marketers spewing easy-to-consume nonsense that makes people comfortable, all of the work that the artists, whose only real goal was to create a message (since they almost never made money), did is stolen.

Yes yes yes, all those mean people who want to be comfortable. You've got it differently though, you've pierced the veil, you reject the world to do, you're the rebel.

It's real freaking easy to be the rebel when you're not the one paying the bills. I don't have any respect what so ever for anyone talking about how it's for "love not money" when they're the ones who aren't paying for anything.

I don't think that is fair. I think that the mainstream deserves to be scorned for doing that to hardworking, honest artists who don't let the sex and surrealism of the mainstream market subvert their work for the sake of success.

Then let them fucking DO IT. if it was so important to them they'd keep at it, and if it was so important to YOU you'd continue to embrace it. It's rather damned telling that you're more concerned with apparently being associated with being "normal" then the artform that you seem to love so much.


Ah. You "grew up" and discovered that it was easier to not feel scornful and to let your frustration and alienation be "controlled".

Actually I grew up and realized that the attitude of "fuck the man, I won't be conformist" was perhaps the most conformist thing I could do.

Hopefully...you'll figure that out.

Was it money or sex that convinced you? Both seem to be what "matures" people.

I tend to enjoy quantities of both. You should try, the effects are remarkable. I've found that people who say they don't want sex or money are largely incapable of getting either.

That's not funny.Don't take yourself so seriously. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, it's just humour. Whatever, if you wanna whine about bad PR, shave your head or grow a mohawk. My point being; it doesn't matter what idiots think. Humans judge their fellow humans on their attitude, not the way they look. Doesn't matter what the pseudo-humans think about a fucking thing. Never has & never will.

I see emos, but that is about it?;)

oh your art huh? Your art! Kid, if I recall correctly, you're barely old enough to have pubic hair, yet you expect me to take your claims about your "art" seriously?

While I won't lay long odds on being older than you (although, who knows, I might be), I'm fairly sure I'm older than you think. And, frankly, art has nothing to do with age. Craft has a lot to do with experience, but art is simply expression, and while the craft of expressing can be made more pungent, the act of expression does not, itself, change.

Although, your lack of understanding on the subject of art calls into question your own knowledge thereof.

If something is so shallow to you that it "loses all its meaning" if Nike happens to use it in a commercial, it probably didn't have any meaning to you in the first place.

Although I can hardly take serious those who allow their art to be used to support groups like Nike or Coca Cola who abuse their workers and supress union activity, if they do not speak to the rights of workers to organize, they are not invalidated by allowing their work to do so.

However, I am more angered by the emptyness of mainstream music. Its focuses, pure feel-good bullshit and fake world escapism are not expressive, they are just a form of Soma for the masses. I do not feel that art should become a drug to be hit up on for good times, and utterly meaningless the rest of the time.

How shallow that must be, to take something that "has meaning" apparently, and then to reject it because some aspect of it becomes corporatized. Maybe, JUST maybe the things that have so much "meaning" for you only do so because they weren't being used in "mainstream" and then when they start to, it's not that they lose meaning, but you can't continue to enjoy them and still continue your precious status of being "different"?

Mainstreaming has a lot more to do with sanitizing. Making clean and easily accepted. It means taking all the heart and meaning out, and leaving only the easily consumed.

I do not seek to be different because it is different, I seek to be different because to be same would be to not live to my full potential.


It's real freaking easy to be the rebel when you're not the one paying the bills. I don't have any respect what so ever for anyone talking about how it's for "love not money" when they're the ones who aren't paying for anything.

Believe it or not, most artists are aware of that. Me, I've spent most of my young life watching music teachers going through the day to day acts of teaching because they couldn't make the dream. Part of the love not money ideology is accepting that there is a price and that lives are destroyed in the pursuit of artistic expression (and not many of them the "rebel" strawman you choose to target. Many were people not too different from yourself.). That, more than anything else, is why I resent the mainstreaming of underground art.

People starved, bled, and some even died because of their drive to create. To cheapen it into generic, three-minute segments with neither message nor complexity is to spit in the faces of those pioneers.

Then let them fucking DO IT. if it was so important to them they'd keep at it, and if it was so important to YOU you'd continue to embrace it. It's rather damned telling that you're more concerned with apparently being associated with being "normal" then the artform that you seem to love so much.

I'm fine with live and let live, right up until it becomes "We live and kill all of your hard work". Don't rant against a strawman I am not. I do not despise normalcy, I despise those aspects of it which are incorrect, and I despise the dogma with which it consumes and destroys.

Actually I grew up and realized that the attitude of "fuck the man, I won't be conformist" was perhaps the most conformist thing I could do.

Hopefully...you'll figure that out.

Really, because children are the ones who assume they know everything about someone just because of a few short exchanges. Maybe if you understood the difference between having found rebellion because you sought rebellion, or having been forced into rebellion because you could not stomach the sameness that surrounded you. I have no desire to rebel. It isn't comfortable in the least, and I'm a lazy bastard, but I can't stand mainstream culture. It makes me feel filthy and used.


I tend to enjoy quantities of both. You should try, the effects are remarkable. I've found that people who say they don't want sex or money are largely incapable of getting either.

Figured as much. Those do tend to be what does it in the end.

I'm not talking about the "Ooo...I'm depressed and wear makeup!" People, more the "I cut myself" kinda people. Because it mostly seems to be the makeup people who show up more.

I know people who have cut themselves, but that wasn't because they associate themselves with "emo" or wanted attention. It's something that they're not proud of and don't like to talk about it much.

I know people, on the other hand, who identify with the emo scene, which is what I naturally think of when someone talks about "emo".

While I won't lay long odds on being older than you (although, who knows, I might be), I'm fairly sure I'm older than you think. And, frankly, art has nothing to do with age. Craft has a lot to do with experience, but art is simply expression, and while the craft of expressing can be made more pungent, the act of expression does not, itself, change.

Although, your lack of understanding on the subject of art calls into question your own knowledge thereof.

Art has value in and of itself. Art is not diminished, lessened, or in any way altered by what other people do.

I do know however, that a lot of what people call their "art" is more aptly labeled as "crap". Not every starving artist is starving because the mean world won't give them a shot.

Some starve because, frankly, they just suck. And there's a WHOLE lot more of the "suck that thinks they're great" than their are true greatness.

However, I am more angered by the emptyness of mainstream music. Its focuses, pure feel-good bullshit and fake world escapism are not expressive, they are just a form of Soma for the masses. I do not feel that art should become a drug to be hit up on for good times, and utterly meaningless the rest of the time.

Mainstreaming has a lot more to do with sanitizing. Making clean and easily accepted. It means taking all the heart and meaning out, and leaving only the easily consumed.

Yes yes, to live is to suffer, to love is to suffer, to suffer is to live, to live is to love, I have HEARD IT ALL ALREADY.

See, right here, here's the thing. You act like you've gotten some great view on the universe. You act like you figured it all out. Well guess what kiddo. You don't have a unique perspective on the universe. You don't have some great secret the rest of us don't. You're not god's special little flower.

You figured out a special lesson, it's true. Life, at times, sucks. The thing is though, you're not the only one to figure that out. Most of us got that particular lesson in your young teenage years. The difference is though while MOST of us recognize it sucks, you take it a step further. You encourage the sucking. You embrace the sucking. You make every effort to make sure your life KEEPS ON SUCKING.

What actual, healthy, emotionally mature people do is recognize that yes, sometimes life sucks, sometimes it sucks bad. But we deal with it and move on with our fucking lives.

You and your kind don't do that. You act like it's your divine mission in life to suffer, how anything that could possibly detract from that suffering is evil, it's bad, it's a drug for the masses (oh Lenin would be proud of you). You try to look for some deeper meaning about life that somehow you will only gleen through making your life suck, and talking about how much it sucks, and hanging around with your equally depressed, equally sucking life friends talking about how much life sucks and how all the "normal" people just don't "get it", and you throw words around like "sheep" and "drugs" and "soma" and how they don't have any soul!

Meanwhile the sheepy, souless, drugged out masses just get on with their lives the best they can without finding the need to dwell on every bad little thing that happens to them for all eternity, and just deal with it. I'll tell you something kiddo, those that can deal with the ups and downs in life without having to wail the metaphysical misery are far more "with it" than those who try to find joy in sorrow, an exercise as fruitless as drawing blood from the stone.

But don't let that stop you.

I do not seek to be different because it is different, I seek to be different because to be same would be to not live to my full potential.

Because you define "potential" as sitting around discussing the pain and horror of life, instead of growing up, cleaning up, and actually living your life.

That's not potential. It's bloody depressing, and a whole lot angsty, but it doesn't accomplish much. Sitting whining about the evils of life tends to change little.


Believe it or not, most artists are aware of that. Me, I've spent most of my young life watching music teachers going through the day to day acts of teaching because they couldn't make the dream. Part of the love not money ideology is accepting that there is a price and that lives are destroyed in the pursuit of artistic expression (and not many of them the "rebel" strawman you choose to target. Many were people not too different from yourself.). That, more than anything else, is why I resent the mainstreaming of underground art.

And maybe they just suck

People starved, bled, and some even died because of their drive to create. To cheapen it into generic, three-minute segments with neither message nor complexity is to spit in the faces of those pioneers.

Yes, they have, people have suffered for their art. People have stood up to opression, people have stood in front of the tanks in the square, this is all true.

But not you. And I thik the people who HAVE suffered, who HAVE bled, who HAVE died for it would be rather offended that you've leeched off their efforts as if it somehow validates you.


I'm fine with live and let live, right up until it becomes "We live and kill all of your hard work". Don't rant against a strawman I am not. I do not despise normalcy, I despise those aspects of it which are incorrect, and I despise the dogma with which it consumes and destroys.

Last time I checked copyright applies to everyone.

Really, because children are the ones who assume they know everything about someone just because of a few short exchanges.

I don't need to repeat what I've heard for years. I went through my rebellious child stage, I grew out of it. I know it when I see it.

Maybe if you understood the difference between having found rebellion because you sought rebellion, or having been forced into rebellion because you could not stomach the sameness that surrounded you. I have no desire to rebel. It isn't comfortable in the least, and I'm a lazy bastard, but I can't stand mainstream culture. It makes me feel filthy and used.

Bullshit you don't. You've said as much here. You can't stand "mainstream" so you find smoething "real" something "with meaning". Until that becomes what you consider "mainstream" then suddenly, inexplicably, it's lost all meaning and you have to find something ELSE to keep you being "different".

The thing is you're no different than the rest of us. You're fed the same line of bullshit that we all are. The difference is, the line of bullshit they sell you has the added twist of making you believe that they're not selling you the bullshit. And you're falling for it. The "nonconformist rebel" is the biggest stereotypical conformist we find these days.

Figured as much. Those do tend to be what does it in the end.

You should try it, or is that too "mainstream" for you?

I don't know any real emos, and if I did, I would probably unload on them like a dump truck after hearing them bitch and moan about their middle class suburban life for about five minutes.

However, I am dating a Goth, and Goth are better than Emos any day of the week.

bitch and moan about their middle class suburban life for about five minutes.

What, exactly, is your objection?

Art has value in and of itself. Art is not diminished, lessened, or in any way altered by what other people do.

I do know however, that a lot of what people call their "art" is more aptly labeled as "crap". Not every starving artist is starving because the mean world won't give them a shot.

Some starve because, frankly, they just suck. And there's a WHOLE lot more of the "suck that thinks they're great" than their are true greatness.

Art, by it's nature cannot be bad or good. Art is merely art. Good and bad are value judgements we choose to place upon it. It can not be art, or it can be uncreative or uninteresting, but it cannot be bad.

What actual, healthy, emotionally mature people do is recognize that yes, sometimes life sucks, sometimes it sucks bad. But we deal with it and move on with our fucking lives.

Who the fuck are you talking to? It sounds more like you're lecturing someone who isn't here. Adress what I say, and not your petty delusions of who I must be (or perhaps, who you were?), please.

You and your kind don't do that. You act like it's your divine mission in life to suffer, how anything that could possibly detract from that suffering is evil, it's bad, it's a drug for the masses (oh Lenin would be proud of you). You try to look for some deeper meaning about life that somehow you will only gleen through making your life suck, and talking about how much it sucks, and hanging around with your equally depressed, equally sucking life friends talking about how much life sucks and how all the "normal" people just don't "get it", and you throw words around like "sheep" and "drugs" and "soma" and how they don't have any soul!

A) Lenin nothing. Don't bring politics into this. Mine probably aren't too different from your own.

B) Fuck off and let me live my way without trying to steal and take credit for what I do. I don't give a flying fuck about what you do or do not enjoy. You are putting words in my mouth, and you are using it as an excuse to attack my way of life. I do not attack your way of life, unless it infringes on mine, why are you choosing to do so? Is there a feeling of innadequacy that you are trying to face?

Meanwhile the sheepy, souless, drugged out masses just get on with their lives the best they can without finding the need to dwell on every bad little thing that happens to them for all eternity, and just deal with it. I'll tell you something kiddo, those that can deal with the ups and downs in life without having to wail the metaphysical misery are far more "with it" than those who try to find joy in sorrow, an exercise as fruitless as drawing blood from the stone.

But don't let that stop you.

Don't worry, it won't. There is nothing more pointless about drawing joy from sorrow than there is about drawing joy from lies. Both are equally valuble. I do not seek to suffer, although I, like you, do. I merely choose to not lie to myself about how I live.


Because you define "potential" as sitting around discussing the pain and horror of life, instead of growing up, cleaning up, and actually living your life.

You can adress the ills of life by running away from them, or you can attack them. Emo, contrary to your delusions, chose to excorcise its demons by shining the light of day upon them and showing them for what they were. Punk was a new grand theater, albeit a purposefully twisted one, and part of grand theater, after the anger and the battle, is the catharsis. Emo was the catharsis that the DC scene needed after its destructive and tempestuous hardcore scene collapsed.

The life of a performer is the life of their art. Do not mistake creating art for not living. It is a different life, surely, but it is not not living.

That's not potential. It's bloody depressing, and a whole lot angsty, but it doesn't accomplish much. Sitting whining about the evils of life tends to change little.

All that is required for evil to prosper is for good men to flee from it, refusing to acknowledge its existence, and allowing it to grow in the shadows of their hearts and minds.

And maybe they just suck

Oh that was fun. Insult innocent people who worked hard and whom you do not know just to make a rhetorical point. At least they fucking tried, coward.

Yes, they have, people have suffered for their art. People have stood up to opression, people have stood in front of the tanks in the square, this is all true.

But not you. And I thik the people who HAVE suffered, who HAVE bled, who HAVE died for it would be rather offended that you've leeched off their efforts as if it somehow validates you.

I can only do so much. I do my best, although, to be honest, it is pitiful. At least I fucking try. Coward.


Last time I checked copyright applies to everyone.

Irrelevant.

I don't need to repeat what I've heard for years. I went through my rebellious child stage, I grew out of it. I know it when I see it.

Oh, good fucking job. Have fun shadow-boxing then, because until you argue with me, rather than the words you put in my mouth, all you do is come across as is embittered and scared.

Bullshit you don't. You've said as much here. You can't stand "mainstream" so you find smoething "real" something "with meaning". Until that becomes what you consider "mainstream" then suddenly, inexplicably, it's lost all meaning and you have to find something ELSE to keep you being "different".

The thing is you're no different than the rest of us. You're fed the same line of bullshit that we all are. The difference is, the line of bullshit they sell you has the added twist of making you believe that they're not selling you the bullshit. And you're falling for it. The "nonconformist rebel" is the biggest stereotypical conformist we find these days.

Wait, the fact that I've time and time again said that I do not have any problem with something being popular, I have a problem with what being popular does to it, seems to be going over your fucking head. There is nothing wrong with being well liked. However, the truth is that to be well-liked, most of the underground art-forms are sanitized. New, pop musicians, create versions without any of the former things that made the underground artists interesting.

So stop putting words in my mouth, damnit. I do not beleive that being mainstream is the problem. I beleive that the process that is required to be mainstream, is the problem.

Get the fucking point, yet, or are you still playing stupid?

You should try it, or is that too "mainstream" for you?

No thanks. I enjoy my life as it is. Why should I change my life for two things that will truly not make a large difference in my enjoyment of life anyway? After all, success isn't being rich or well loved, it's doing the right thing.

Or did you leave that lesson by the wayside too, Scrooge?

What, exactly, is your objection?

That they bitch and moan about pointless things like "OMFG, MY DAD DIDN'T GET ME THE COMPUTER I WANTED, I AM SOOOOO GOING TO OD!" or "OMFG, THE GIRL I PINED FOR SO LONG DIDN'T LIKE ME, I AM GOING TO CUT MYSELF!"

However, it's not only the inane whining that gets to me, what also gets to me is the fact that emos tend to cut themselves to draw attention, I mean my God they act like they won the freaking Emmy awards every time they cut. However, when they do this, the cause problems for people who cut themselves not for attention, but for completely different and variety of different reason. My girl is an ex-SI, and so is one of my friends and they both cannot stand emos because of this simple fact that they "brag" about their cutting and their scars.

Art, by it's nature cannot be bad or good. Art is merely art. Good and bad are value judgements we choose to place upon it. It can not be art, or it can be uncreative or uninteresting, but it cannot be bad.


http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/4109/idonotknowuf4.png
No, I'm reasonably sure it can be bad.

http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/4109/idonotknowuf4.png
No, I'm reasonably sure it can be bad.

My God, that is horrible art, my unborn niece or nephew could draw better than that.

nobody ever saw my scars.........well, until that time that I cut too deep, then the ER saw all of them.

But they were quite obvious on the cashier at McDonalds. She coulda been hot too.

My God, that is horrible art, my unborn niece or nephew could draw better than that.

Probably, yeah. That was the entire point.

http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/4109/idonotknowuf4.png
No, I'm reasonably sure it can be bad.

No. See, there's no such thing as bad art. Bad and good are value judgements and art's value is in its goal - expression, and not in its effect, enjoyment. Art can be enjoyable or unenjoyable, demanding or undemanding, vapid, or complex, accesible or innaccesible, but it cannot be good or bad.

Edit: And I enjoyed it. Sure, it wasn't skilled, per se, but it was still funny.

Probably, yeah. That was the entire point.

Your Welcome. :)

No. See, there's no such thing as bad art. Bad and good are value judgements and art's value is in its goal - expression, and not in its effect, enjoyment. Art can be enjoyable or unenjoyable, demanding or undemanding, vapid, or complex, accesible or innaccesible, but it cannot be good or bad.

Edit: And I enjoyed it. Sure, it wasn't skilled, per se, but it was still funny.

No, that's bad from a technical standpoint. It's horribly flawed, and is thus bad. Bad can be objective. Take, for example, "Manos" Hands of Fate. It's bad on every conceivable level.

B) Fuck off and let me live my way without trying to steal and take credit for what I do. I don't give a flying fuck about what you do or do not enjoy. You are putting words in my mouth, and you are using it as an excuse to attack my way of life. I do not attack your way of life, unless it infringes on mine, why are you choosing to do so? Is there a feeling of innadequacy that you are trying to face?

I can ignore everything else you have to say really, because this says it all. The thing is, either you don't live up to your own bullshit, or you don't recognize it as bullshit.

The "you don't attack others ways of life if it infringes on yours" line? Crap. Why do I say it's crap? Because here you are. You rail against the society. You attack mainstream art as a drug (yes yes, soma, how very intellectual you are, I've read brave new world too, aren't you proud you worked that into conversation). you are doing nothign BUT attacking "my way of life" by making derogatory comments about the art I may have on my walls, the music that may be in my mp3 player or the products I may buy.

Absolutly none of which infringes on your way of life in the slightest. But here you are. I don't give a shit about how you live your life. I think it's misguided. I think it's immature. I think it's something children grow out of when they get older. But it's yours to do with as you please. Don't try to give me the crap of "I just don't want you infringing on my way of life line". What I say, what i do, the products I buy, the music I listen to, the art I purchase, none of which infringes on your life. So either live up to the ideal you profess to have, and shut the hell up about it, or stop trying to feed the rest of us your line of bullshit.

Don't worry, it won't. There is nothing more pointless about drawing joy from sorrow than there is about drawing joy from lies. Both are equally valuble. I do not seek to suffer, although I, like you, do. I merely choose to not lie to myself about how I live.

And this is the mentality I'm talking about. I'm either suffering or dillusional is that it kid? I'll tell you what, mentally and emotionally healthy adults are capable of living their lives without the necessity for either. The believe that somehow if you aren't suffering constantly, in every moment, your life must be a lie.

Bullshit, and remarkably short sighted.


You can adress the ills of life by running away from them, or you can attack them. Emo, contrary to your delusions, chose to excorcise its demons by shining the light of day upon them and showing them for what they were. Punk was a new grand theater, albeit a purposefully twisted one, and part of grand theater, after the anger and the battle, is the catharsis. Emo was the catharsis that the DC scene needed after its destructive and tempestuous hardcore scene collapsed.

And your overactive sense of self importance doesn't hurt much I'm sure. You have to read this shit to really appreciate the massive ego that must be needed to produce it. Shining the light of day upon your demons? The anger and battle and catharsis? Even your bloody LANGUAGE is overly dramatic. It's a massive over romaticizing of everything. Life is not a battle, it's not a war, it's not an eternal struggle against the darkness.

It's just...life.


All that is required for evil to prosper is for good men to flee from it, refusing to acknowledge its existence, and allowing it to grow in the shadows of their hearts and minds.

Again with the drama, ok kiddo, what exactly are you doing to stop the "evil" from "prospering"? Sitting on an internet forum talking about how you're shining light on the demons and the battles and the anger and then somehow catharsis?

What, exactly, the fuck are you doing?

Oh that was fun. Insult innocent people who worked hard and whom you do not know just to make a rhetorical point.

I made no insult. I merely stated the possiblity that if they were not successful in their art is it is quite possible that they were not good at it. Not everyone who really really wants to be an artists is actually good at it.

At least they fucking tried, coward.



I can only do so much. I do my best, although, to be honest, it is pitiful. At least I fucking try. Coward.

Oh yeah, you try. Look at you try, boy you're trying hard. You try SOOOO HARD you feel it necessary to come here on an internet forum and tell everyone JUST HOW HARD YOU TRY.

Instead of, actually, you know, doing something.

Oh well. Keep on trying.

Oh, good fucking job. Have fun shadow-boxing then, because until you argue with me, rather than the words you put in my mouth, all you do is come across as is embittered and scared.

See, that's just the thing, I have made peace with my life. I'm HAPPY with my life. And because I'm happy, I actually make effort to make others lives a bit happier too. I donate my time, I donate my money, I donate my legal advice (oh yeah, after I paid my way through college, through lawschool, and got a job, like the coward I am).

You....bitch.

See the difference?

Wait, the fact that I've time and time again said that I do not have any problem with something being popular, I have a problem with what being popular does to it, seems to be going over your fucking head. There is nothing wrong with being well liked. However, the truth is that to be well-liked, most of the underground art-forms are sanitized. New, pop musicians, create versions without any of the former things that made the underground artists interesting.

Oh, you're saying it alright, you keep saying it. There's just one problem.

you're lying.

Simply put, there's no other explanation. You think things being made popular somehow rips them of their soul, sanitizes them for public, makes them palpable and easy to consume by the masses? Well guess what jackass, I AGREE WITH YOU. I do. The difference between you and me though? You rail about the consumerism of society, the empty bleakness of it all.

I...find what I like, and I stick to it. I find a musician I think is good, I pay him for his music. An author I like that hasn't gone mainstream, I pay her for her works. I find what I like, and I enjoy it.

What the fuck does it matter what I like, or others like, take what YOU LIKE, and stick to it. You don't like what I like? Fine, who the fuck cares?

That's primarily it, and the question you need to ask yourself. Why the fuck do you care?

The music I like doesn't in any way alter what YOU like. My tastes do not need to conform to YOUR tastes. My likes don't have to mirror YOUR likes. You like what you like, I like what I like, we both go and find what we each like.

You think popular music is souless, empty, exists in a vaccum? You can bitch about it, OR, simply, you can chose not to fucking listen to it.

People who don't care whether something is popular, but happen to not like what is popular, don't consume the popular things. That's the normal, rational thing to do. If you don't like it, you don't use it. If you like it, you use it, and you don't care whether it's popular or not

People who judge their self worth on how "different" they are get pissy when things of theirs become mainstream because then they have to go find a new thing to be different with.

See the dichodemy here? If you think a band has sold out, gone corporate, their style, their soul co--opted, don't listen to it. That's all, don't listen to it. You take it so personal, you attack it as stealing credit for what is "yours'.

You didn't make it. You didn't write it. You didn't get paid for it. It's not yours. It was never yours. You don't get to lay claim to something because you like it. You get to claim something because you made it. And if you made it, it's yours, you get all the legal protections from it that everyone else has.

If YOU make something YOU can do whatever you want to do with it. You do not, however, have the right to tell other people what to do with their creations because you somehow thinks it loses its soul. Don't like it, don't buy it. It's as simple as that.

or...you can bitch.

No thanks. I enjoy my life as it is. Why should I change my life for two things that will truly not make a large difference in my enjoyment of life anyway? After all, success isn't being rich or well loved, it's doing the right thing.

Or did you leave that lesson by the wayside too, Scrooge?

All good things. Virtue, nobility, all valueable things. But you know what the first big step to actually being a good person is, a functional person, a person who benefits society?

First step, stop caring so much about what other people do. There are battles worth fighting for. The sign of an emotionally healthy person is knowing which ones are which.

Tyranny, oppression, persecution, these are things worth fighting, maybe dying for.

Railing on about the emptyness of society because people like different music than you? Not so much.

Nobody is taking what you like away from you. If you like it, find it. Put it on an mp3, stick it on your ipod, listen to it to your hearts content, find peace, and shut the fuck up.

Or just keep bitching. Whichever.

No, that's bad from a technical standpoint. It's horribly flawed, and is thus bad. Bad can be objective. Take, for example, "Manos" Hands of Fate. It's bad on every conceivable level.

Bad on a technical level is bad craft. Or, at least, skilless craft. Art and craft are different things.

The act of expressing cannot be bad or good. It merely is, and we attach constructs to it, dealing with construction, and form.

And "Manos" isn't bad art, even if it is a crime against humanity.

Bad on a technical level is bad craft. Or, at least, skilless craft. Art and craft are different things.


Craft is the construction. Art is the product. If it is bad on a technical level, the art is bad.

I can ignore everything else you have to say really, because this says it all. The thing is, either you don't live up to your own bullshit, or you don't recognize it as bullshit.

Certainly, that would seem to be the case, as you aren't reading a word I wrote, and you are instead madly ranting at me with the air of a bitter old man.

The "you don't attack others ways of life if it infringes on yours" line? Crap. Why do I say it's crap? Because here you are. You rail against the society. You attack mainstream art as a drug (yes yes, soma, how very intellectual you are, I've read brave new world too, aren't you proud you worked that into conversation). you are doing nothign BUT attacking "my way of life" by making derogatory comments about the art I may have on my walls, the music that may be in my mp3 player or the products I may buy.

Absolutly none of which infringes on your way of life in the slightest. But here you are. I don't give a shit about how you live your life. I think it's misguided. I think it's immature. I think it's something children grow out of when they get older. But it's yours to do with as you please. Don't try to give me the crap of "I just don't want you infringing on my way of life line". What I say, what i do, the products I buy, the music I listen to, the art I purchase, none of which infringes on your life. So either live up to the ideal you profess to have, and shut the hell up about it, or stop trying to feed the rest of us your line of bullshit.

What I have railed againt, sir, is the nascent evil in taking away the hard work and efforts of underground art by repurposing it for those who choose to accept mainstream media spin, rather than doing background research. That is an infringement, because it is an active theft. It is spitting in the face of those artists who I own CDs by.

You are railing against not me, but your image of what I must represent. I do not know what it is you fear or hate so easily about subcultures (although, as I said, it seems to be bitterness to me), but I wish you would not choose me as your target. I'm not even guilty of most of the crimes you attribute to me.

And this is the mentality I'm talking about. I'm either suffering or dillusional is that it kid? I'll tell you what, mentally and emotionally healthy adults are capable of living their lives without the necessity for either. The believe that somehow if you aren't suffering constantly, in every moment, your life must be a lie.

Bullshit. There's a difference between being a balanced, realistic person who acknowledges that life doesn't exist in Hollywood scripts, and that suffering is a reality of life (not a constant, but a reality), and one that art should not reflect only the happy, easy emotions, but also the difficult, terrifying ones, and beleiving only in suffering.

IF you choose not to acknowledge your suffering, or to flee from it into happy Hollywood land, then yes, you are lying to yourself. You needn't wallow in it, but realism demands that, at the very least, you give it it's fair share of time.

Still, your life, your rules. If you're able to get up in the morning and sleep at night, my code of morals is meaningless for you.

And your overactive sense of self importance doesn't hurt much I'm sure. You have to read this shit to really appreciate the massive ego that must be needed to produce it. Shining the light of day upon your demons? The anger and battle and catharsis? Even your bloody LANGUAGE is overly dramatic. It's a massive over romaticizing of everything. Life is not a battle, it's not a war, it's not an eternal struggle against the darkness.

It's just...life.

Tautological statements, while technically correct, do not add to an understanding.

The language I adopted was not about me, but rather about a form of art. I was bring the comparison of grand opera (Not one I'm the first to make - I'll Cite John Lydon for that statement, as he's probably the first to make it). I chose to use the concepts that drove grand opera -- which is to say, the battle and the tragedy that made up Romantic-era opera -- and to explain how different parts of Punk fit into said comparison.

My demons were not involved. DC Punk suffered a time of severe cultural depression after the HarDCore scene collapsed. Violence, Neo-nazi's, suicide, drug adictions, and the departure of old friends and scene members plagued the scene. Emocore, the real Emo form arose out of this era, confronting these problems. (Embrace, with Said Gun, Dance of Days and other songs is probably the most direct attestment to this, so, if I were to offer examples, that is where I would draw them from).

Again with the drama, ok kiddo, what exactly are you doing to stop the "evil" from "prospering"? Sitting on an internet forum talking about how you're shining light on the demons and the battles and the anger and then somehow catharsis?

What, exactly, the fuck are you doing?

Once again, twisting my words, seeking meaning that is not there. The evil is suffering, and human wrongs. Politics and Personal Politics are important in counterculture music. They seek to, at the very least, adress these things honestly, something that we, in our synthetic, sheltered lives, do not acknowledge.

If you would be kind enough to adress the point, that these artists (and not me, necessarily, although I have tried [and, to be blunt, failed] to be one of them), and not I, did seek to show things for what they were.

I made no insult. I merely stated the possiblity that if they were not successful in their art is it is quite possible that they were not good at it. Not everyone who really really wants to be an artists is actually good at it.

Like I said, at least they tried. It is callous to toss aside their efforts as "sucking" when they have, at the very least tried, and lost a great deal for taking the risk of trying.

Instead of, actually, you know, doing something.

Oh well. Keep on trying.

When you have something other than biting sarcasm and self-indulgent rage to offer, I might take offense at this. As it is, it is little more than a way of making you feel better about yourself. I hope, at the very least, that it is succeeding at that.

You....bitch.

See the difference?

Cute. Having debated with me once on a webforum, you now know everything there is to know about me, eh? I wish that I could ever hope to be as all knowing and all seeing as you.

Find somewhere else to shadow-box.



Oh, you're saying it alright, you keep saying it. There's just one problem.

[...]
You think popular music is souless, empty, exists in a vaccum? You can bitch about it, OR, simply, you can chose not to fucking listen to it.

Which is fine. I didn't come here to have a war over it. I posted, complaining at the false label of a form of pop music as a form of hardcore punk, since it was distorting the work of the punkers, who didn't have the ease of the music industry to give them hands up and makeovers along the way.



All good things. Virtue, nobility, all valueable things. But you know what the first big step to actually being a good person is, a functional person, a person who benefits society?
[...]

Or just keep bitching. Whichever.

Once again, I don't know who you are arguing with, but my problems are with more than music. First, I didn't even come here to have some bitter old man rage at me about how horrible I am for not wanting to live the way he does. Second, my problems span everything from issues of personal politics, to artistc politics, to actual politics, to interpersonal relations. I have chosen to highlight one such subject because it happens to be one where I am more knowledgeable.

Now debate with me and the things that I am saying, damnit. I don't care about the words you keep putting in my mouth, and the adversarial attitude you want to have about minute word choice. Address my broader points or stop attacking me. You are only succeding in being agitating and maddeningly indirect.

The point I layed out was the discredit done to the work of others by a mass media that chooses to change words and movements and history to fit it's own means and needs. I resent that. It is wrong, and so I correct misuses of those words and histories. That is my point. Your pointless ranting and raving about irrelevant strawmen is offensive, certainly, and borderlines on obsession, but it does not adress my points at all.

Certainly, that would seem to be the case, as you aren't reading a word I wrote, and you are instead madly ranting at me with the air of a bitter old man.

Oh, but I'm the one stereotyping. What a pair we must be, the emo cutting child and the angry old man who yells "get off my lawn!"

I don't think that of you, honestly. I think you have passion, I just think it's misguided.

Now, for the record, I am a remarkably progressive individual, I support local artists at least 2 or 3 times a month.

I am 29.

What I have railed againt, sir, is the nascent evil in taking away the hard work and efforts of underground art by repurposing it for those who choose to accept mainstream media spin, rather than doing background research. That is an infringement, because it is an active theft. It is spitting in the face of those artists who I own CDs by.

And they have copyright laws for that, do they not? If their work is infringed, they may seek remedy. They have that right, the law exists to protect them. Let them pursue that through the proper channels. Remedies exist, what exactly is the problem?

Bullshit. There's a difference between being a balanced, realistic person who acknowledges that life doesn't exist in Hollywood scripts, and that suffering is a reality of life (not a constant, but a reality), and one that art should not reflect only the happy, easy emotions, but also the difficult, terrifying ones, and beleiving only in suffering.

yes, life includes suffering, I know we ALL know. We got that. Now who the hell are you to tell what OTHER people should do with THEIR art? Who the hell are you to tell others what they should do with their art?

IF you choose not to acknowledge your suffering, or to flee from it into happy Hollywood land, then yes, you are lying to yourself. You needn't wallow in it, but realism demands that, at the very least, you give it it's fair share of time.

Once again, who the hell are you to make demands on ANYONE save yourself?

Still, your life, your rules. If you're able to get up in the morning and sleep at night, my code of morals is meaningless for you.

You haven't said a THING about morals, not in the slightest. You have only said "art should be moody because life is moody" That's not morals, that's not ethics, that has nothing to do with either in the slightest. It's you telling other people what art should be.

So who the hell are you to do that?


Once again, twisting my words, seeking meaning that is not there. The evil is suffering, and human wrongs. Politics and Personal Politics are important in counterculture music. They seek to, at the very least, adress these things honestly, something that we, in our synthetic, sheltered lives, do not acknowledge.

We in our sheltered lives? We talk about political realities but how many of us have seen them? I don't need to hear about the horrors of the situation in tibet from a band who's never been there.

I've BEEN to tibet. I've BEEN to china. I've BEEN to africa, I've SEEN it. If you think we need music to address certain ills in society then you have a rather dim view of humanity.

personally I prefer the evening news to keep me abrest of political situations, not the latest high school punk band.

If you would be kind enough to adress the point, that these artists (and not me, necessarily, although I have tried [and, to be blunt, failed] to be one of them), and not I, did seek to show things for what they were.

What they perceive reality to be at least, sure. That's no more, and no less, than others efforts to show what THEY perceive reality to be. I subscribe neither to the idea that life is pleasant, nor that it is misery.

Like I said, at least they tried. It is callous to toss aside their efforts as "sucking" when they have, at the very least tried, and lost a great deal for taking the risk of trying.

We have all taken the risk of trying. We have all risked, we have all lost. It's part of the human condition. I neither romanticize no villanize those who do so.


Cute. Having debated with me once on a webforum, you now know everything there is to know about me, eh? I wish that I could ever hope to be as all knowing and all seeing as you.

I know only what you present, a self assured, egotistical, arrogant child who seems to think he has a view on life so precious and unique that us poor unwashed masses who suckle on the teet of consumerism just will not get. I take a tad bit of offense to the idea that somehow I just don't "get it" because the music in my mp3 player is different than yours.

And whether or not that's the attitude you have, it's sure as hell the one you're projecting, so maybe you should think about that before carrying on.

Which is fine. I didn't come here to have a war over it.

Yet, here you are.

Once again, I don't know who you are arguing with, but my problems are with more than music. First, I didn't even come here to have some bitter old man rage at me about how horrible I am for not wanting to live the way he does.

I don't give a SHIT how you live, none what so ever. Why do you think I care enough about you to care? I find it misguided, that's all.

Here's why. You talk about art being reflective of life. You talk about "rational balance" and all that. You say mainstream "popifies" things, makes them cheery, makes them bland, distorts the darker side of things, polishes it up and makes it seem non existant. You think, in general that art should mirror life. Which is fine, if that's how you want to do it.

Some of us, however, don't want art to mirror life. We want art to mirror entertainment. We don't want to see the horrors and darkness of life. Why? Not because, as you seem to believe, because we want to be willfully ignorant. That's generally your perspective, that those who consume happier, fun, more entertaining media are somehow dilluded into thinking that's life. You try to "change the system" try to get us to "wake up" to stop taking "the drug" that's distorting reality, because you believe that this is what it does, that it changes how we perceive things. See happy things, think happy thoughts, and all that. You give people far too little credit.

The fact is, we see it, all the time. I see it when I turn on the news. I see it when I see the homeless on the way to work EVERY MORNING. I read about it, I hear about it, I think about it. I have to, it's all around us.

You think some things create a false sense of pleasantness, that it prevents us from seeing the true bad in the world? I see it as a necessary distraction. I consume media because I want to be ENTERTAINED. I don't necessarily want to see more suffering, more violence, more death, more darkness, more despair. And I don't avoid it at times in my entertainment because I want to pretend it doesn't exist. I avoid it because life in this day and age is CONSTANT reminder that it DOES exist.

Life sucks, I know. I see it every day. But according to you, I shouldn't be allowed to NOT see it. According to you I shouldn't be allowed a little escapism. According to you a little mindless fun entertainment blinds me to the evils of the world. Maybe, for a few minutes a day, on the train home from work, I wanna put my headphones on, and close it out, just for a little while.

You demand realism gets its time. Well the fact is, realism gets WAAAAY more than it's fair share these days. I am acutely aware of the suffering of the world. And it is because of my acute awareness of this fact that every now and then, I'd like a break from it. But according to you, this makes me a sheep, a slave of the establishment, burying my head in the sand because I dared to forget, for 5 minutes, about the suffering of the world, and listen to a catchy toon, with no redeaming social or political value other than it's entertainment. You state that if I listen to music that doesn't try to make a message, perhaps one of the few things in my day to day life that ISN'T bombarding me with the fact that the world is going entirely to hell, that I'm just some media whore.

And you can't see why some take offense to that?

Oh, but I'm the one stereotyping. What a pair we must be, the emo cutting child and the angry old man who yells "get off my lawn!"

I don't think that of you, honestly. I think you have passion, I just think it's misguided.

Now, for the record, I am a remarkably progressive individual, I support local artists at least 2 or 3 times a month.

I am 29.

Cool. I'm 17, the amount of Emo in my music collection pales considerably in the face of more traditional Hardcore Punk and older 60's and 50's folk. I despise even the thought of cutting, and my dearest friends think I'm completely full of shit about personal politics and general politics (And, believe it or not, I don't even give them shit about it more than once or twice a month). I have no hope for the future in music because I have neither the drive nor the work ethic to do more than try to produce as a hobby.

I promise to pretend I'm an obnoxious emo kid if you promise to sit by your computer in a creaky old rocking chair and shout at passersbye, though.



And they have copyright laws for that, do they not? If their work is infringed, they may seek remedy. They have that right, the law exists to protect them. Let them pursue that through the proper channels. Remedies exist, what exactly is the problem?

A bit of a dodge, though. The other side of that is that copyright infringement deals with specific songs (and not even that, since there are only so many chord progressions in the world), and does not protect the words and history of a style.


You haven't said a THING about morals, not in the slightest. You have only said "art should be moody because life is moody" That's not morals, that's not ethics, that has nothing to do with either in the slightest. It's you telling other people what art should be.

So who the hell are you to do that?

I certainly don't believe art should be moody. I think art should suffer when the world needs suffering, rejoice when the world needs rejoicing, rage when the world has turned a blind eye, and, more than anything else, seek to be more than just entertainment.

I've BEEN to tibet. I've BEEN to china. I've BEEN to africa, I've SEEN it. If you think we need music to address certain ills in society then you have a rather dim view of humanity.

personally I prefer the evening news to keep me abrest of political situations, not the latest high school punk band.

1. I'm not going to disagree with the statement regarding my view of humanity. I'm an unapologetic cynic (although, I would say that my view is far to optomistic, if I think art CAN make a difference). Art is not alone however, which brings me to:

2. High School Punk bands serve a significantly different purpose than the evening news. They do not provide particultarly complex information (and we can debate whether modern media does too at a later time), but they do provide energy and momentum. They do not give you the cold, hard facts, but they give you the reaction. The horror, or joy, or anger, or sense of helplessness. One does not trump the other, but both have their place.

I know only what you present, a self assured, egotistical, arrogant child who seems to think he has a view on life so precious and unique that us poor unwashed masses who suckle on the teet of consumerism just will not get. I take a tad bit of offense to the idea that somehow I just don't "get it" because the music in my mp3 player is different than yours.

And whether or not that's the attitude you have, it's sure as hell the one you're projecting, so maybe you should think about that before carrying on.

I would think that you, as a lawyer, would be aware of the fact that going into an opening or closing statement with a sympathetic or concilliating tone is tatamount to telling the jury you have no case.

And I think that you choose to look for more than I truly present. I have neither the time nor the resources to tell you who I am in any level of completion, and so you'll have to settle for a statement that I have met you on the battleground of one subject, and not many, and that you do not know where or how I stand on other issues. Or, as you seem to think, that I believe in just one issue


I don't give a SHIT how you live, none what so ever. Why do you think I care enough about you to care? I find it misguided, that's all.

[...]

And you can't see why some take offense to that?

1. I really don't care what they take offense at. That's their business, and, so long as they leave me alone, I'll enjoy pissing them off almost as much as they enjoy being pissed off at me (and, let's not lie, people LIKE to have a reason to be outraged. They go out of their way to find something to get all up in a huff about. It makes them feel put upon and heroic.).

2. Were you truly indicative of the mainstream, you would be correct, even if I, as an artist, despise being called an entertainer (there's no lower insult. I spend hours perfecting my message and presentation. I am not an instrumentalist, I am the songwriter too. I am not an actor, I am the playwrite as well.). However, many do not. They continue to remain blind. They do not watch the news, or if they do, they forget about it, and it ceases to be. They create a bubble of Soma around them so thick that their life is spent from one pleasure to the next. Now maybe I'm just a gloomy bastard, but it seems to me that (to risk sounding pompous), it's just their fight against another form of moral dread ("How can I justify being so well off, in such a horrific world?"). Unfortunately, they fight by avoiding, and not by trying to meet the challenge head on.

I'm not talking about the "Ooo...I'm depressed and wear makeup!" People, more the "I cut myself" kinda people. Because it mostly seems to be the makeup people who show up more.

SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE: GO CRY RUFFY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think that "Sim Circus" guy is. Pretty sure anyway.
And Corneliu, if rumour is to be credited.

I'm not talking about the "Ooo...I'm depressed and wear makeup!" People, more the "I cut myself" kinda people. Because it mostly seems to be the makeup people who show up more.

SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE: GO CRY RUFFY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vulgar and unforgivable as it is for your to graffiti NSG with a thread like this, I commend you for using the verb "to cut" correctly.

It is a transitive verb, let this be a lesson to everyone.

the problem is thus though. You talk about the "mainstream consumer", but from what experience do you draw such conclusions? How much of the world have you seen, where have you been, how many people, outside your own close group, do you know?

That's the problem I have with the emo subculture in essence. It uses the very same tools it decries in order to propogate itself. The idea of "the blind masses" ignorant of the world who need to be enlightened.

What do you know of the masses, really? What have you experienced of it? The emo movement as a subculture attacks the media claiming it spread disinformation and lies to keep a blind public compliant.

But it tells that to a group that, as a whole, is too young and inexperienced to really know much of the world beyond the cloisters of their own segregated existence. It's the attitude of "the mainstream media fills you with lies, but listen to us because we know the truth" It paints an overbroad, stereotypical, and generally inaccurate view of reality then sells that image to propagate itself. In essence, it does the very thing it claims to attack.

Maybe at 17 you've had a harder life than most. But the emo movement consists largely of a bunch of children, never having been out of school, never had to so much as pay a bill, telling us poor working stiffs how the world works, ignoring the fact that music is a poor imitation to real world experience.

As I said, you're fed the same line of bullshit the rest of us are fed, except your line of bullshit comes with an entitelment attitude, that somehow the masses of teenagers, the bulk of which have never held a job or paid a bill, or had to make it on their own, know the world better than those of us who live in it.

That's the problem, the movement as a whole is filled with, and I mean no disrespect, children who, despite having not had much practical experience with "the mainstream public" have somehow formed opinions on it. Opinions that lead them to tell US that we should reject what the media tells us, despite the fact that the only basis for their belief on what is "mainstream" or "average" comes from what their very own culture tells them is true.

So it's a simple question, from what real world experience do you draw your conclusions on how society works? Cynicism in healthy doses is all well and good, but what have you actually seen of the real, gritty world to actually know what the hell it's about in the first place?

Are your beliefs based on what you've actually, truly experienced, or what your own subculture, with it's own bias, tells you is true?

Kinda Sensible people, are the type of emos that annoy me.

Kinda Sensible people, are the type of emos that annoy me.

KSP doesn't strike as the sort of kid who'd call themselves emo. He seems like the sort who knows emo is a mostly died-out sorta hardcore that MTV decided would be a nice shiny new wrapper to put their manufactured punk-pop bands into.

'Emos' usually rant on about how Thursday is 'screamo' and how Blink 182 is like old school emo, man. And like, my parents don't get me and wouldn't buy me a car even though it's my birthday and I just turned 16. And, they made me do dishes when I wanted to go out and... GOD I HATE THEMM!!!!!

to tell you the truth I had never heard the word "Emo" outside of NSG about 6 months ago.

I still have no idea what the deal is.


Two meanings, the traditional one and the dumb one.

Traditionally, emo is a term used for a type of alternative rock. Specifically emo and emocore are terms derived from 'emotional hardcore', they were first used (somewhat mockingly) to describe a number of post-hardcore bands from around DC. (post-hardcore, like post-x when refering to forms of art mean it's a new, related genre building on the original style, post-surrealism, post-rock, post-whatever...) This style started in DC and spread out, including into the US Midwest. Eventually like most art styles, it got tired and mostly died out. Around the same time grunge was popular, an emo influenced (but not emo) alternative band (called Sunny Day Real Estate) got some significant airplay.

A second-wave of emo happened, with faster screamier bands, a revival of the first wave happened too, most importantly (at least to pop culture), some bands that played music somewhat similar to Sunny Day Real Estate started to get popular. Because some people had heard the word emo used about a band 5 years before that sounded kinda similar, when teeny magazines started talking about Jimmy Eats World and similar bands as becoming 'the next big thing' people started calling all these poppy indie bands emo, then came the MTV emo bands, young indie rock/pop punk/post-hardcore/punk-pop/whatever they could possibly tag it to bands got marketed as 'the next big emo band' in tha mainstream press, which brings us to the second meaning... the dumb meaning.

Eventually the subculture around MTV bands started getting called emo, they're essentially a hybrid of nu-metal kids/mallgoths/spooky kids with the sk8er and MTV punk type kids. Usually they'll like at a little bit of nu-metal, as well as some punkpop. They're so whiny and moppy and sad people started using emo just to mean sad.

There we have it, an overly detained history of the term emo.

As for examples of each music style.

First wave emo: Indian Summer (http://www.mesaverde.co.uk/mp3/indiansummer.mp3)
Second wave: Mohinder (http://www.mesaverde.co.uk/mp3/mohinder.mp3)

For an example of the sorta emo influenced alternative that introduced the term to people, look for some Taking Back Sunday, or Sunny Day Real Estate or Jimmy Eats World, unless you're familiar with any of these bands.

For an example of MTV emo Moneen perhaps, Panic! At The Disco sometimes get called emo, but don't sound anything like emo, or even the poppy rock bands that started the MTV emo craze, it's pretty much a marketing label for alternative rock bands with bad hair.

'Emos' usually rant on about how Thursday is 'screamo' and how Blink 182 is like old school emo, man. And like, my parents don't get me and wouldn't buy me a car even though it's my birthday and I just turned 16. And, they made me do dishes when I wanted to go out and... GOD I HATE THEMM!!!!!I thought those things were called obnoxious upper middle class kids, or just cunts for short.

I hate emos. I hate how they have turned self-mutilation, a very serious problem for some people, into a fad. Now because of their idiotic actions in trying to be "cool," people are less likely to be concerned about those who engage in self-mutilation because of actual mental/emotional problems (though it could be argued that the emo style could be considered the symptom of a mental problem).

I'm not talking about the "Ooo...I'm depressed and wear makeup!" People, more the "I cut myself" kinda people. Because it mostly seems to be the makeup people who show up more.

SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE: GO CRY RUFFY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i used to know a girl who cut herself a lot, but she wasn't emo. i didn't really know at the time till her boyfriend (my friend) and her broke up and he told me about how she used it to get sympathy and attention from him.

but she wasn't "emo" (in fact this was before anyone had even heard of 'an emo' round here)

Craft is the construction. Art is the product. If it is bad on a technical level, the art is bad.

No, this just isn't true. Art is a combination of things - the intention (and the finished product) of the artist, and the perception of the audience.

The technical skills may fail to realise the vision of the artist in terms of the sheer 'workmanship', but not obscure the meaning of the piece, or what it communicates to the observer.

On the other hand, one could be technically 'perfect' and create 'art' that is meaningless, and communicates nothing. By your definition - that would be 'good' art, and the rough sketch that touches the heart would be 'bad' art.

Kinda Sensible people, are the type of emos that annoy me.

Oi vey...

I'm no emo. I listen to a very little bit of Emocore from the mid- to late- 80's, but that hardly makes me fit into a subculture of any kind (unless disgrutled, anti-social geek recently became a subcutlure, and no one told me? 'cuz that would just break my glass, little heart :rolleyes: ).

If you feel the need to justify hating emos, please don't use me as your excuse. The traditional excuse of hating whiners, or hating the depressed, or thinking that the entire subculture feminizes males ought to get along just fine for you. I wouldn't want to be blamed for your generalizations.

And, to be blunt, you're the type of pileing-on, back-biting, assuming asshole that annoys me, so we're even. And, in case you hadn't notices, Kinda Sensible people is a proper name which is not plural, and so the proper verb is, is. If you're gonna make a fool of yourself by jumping to conclusions, and using unsupported, personal attacks, at the very least don't compound the image by not understanding basic grammar.

- - - - - - - - - -

Arathais, you gotta stop putting words in my mouth man. It's easy to fight with a shadow who isn't here, but it isn't me. I never said I wanted anyone to join me. That's your own damn perogative, and it would be wrong for me to take that choice away from you. I'm only concerned when your actions infringe upon me and my descisions.

I really don't care what you think about my opinions. I happen to think that yours are incorrect, but I'm not going to do what you've been doing, and take the opportunity to attack you just because you're debating a different point. I wish to hell that you wouldn't try to keep drawing me into some cosmic battle between culture and sub-culture. It's not my problem. If culture or sub-culture want some battle, they're both wasting their time, as neither is possesed of the ability to listen to the other. I'm not interested in battling with you over the "blind-masses" attitude, or anything of the sort because, to be blunt, it fits as well into your worldview as the forced-happiness of modern pop fits into mine. I'm not here to deal with personal attacks, and if you're gonna continue to use a simple point that I keep trying to draw us back to as an excuse to attack me and what I do, then you can find yourself someone else to discuss with, because I'm sick of being misrepresented and reinterpreted by you so that you can get your jollies. I am, however, struck by the sheer irony of someone with a law degree telling me that I have no idea what the real world is. Does making a monstrously disproportionate amount of money because you were fortunate enough to be able to receive more education constitute the right to be world weary, now?

Mainstream media is responsible for misusing words and histories because it adopts the terms that the major labels are using and it applies them to music that does not fit. I do not doubt that (Generic Pop Band Member X) is from Madeupville, California, or that he struggled in school because of Attention Deficit Disorder. I do however know, that Fall Out Boy has as much to do with Emo as Simple Plan does with Punk. Mainstream media may or may not be accurate. I tend to believe that it is accurate as far as money can be made, and sensationalist beyond that. However, it does adopt the language of the major label marketers, and they do regularly misuse and abuse these histories.

Now either deal with the point or fuck off. I'm not here to have my life dissected for your stress relief. You're engaging in exactly the behaviour you accuse me of behaving in, and you, not I, keep making it the issue. Here, I'll make it easy for you. I'll underline exactly what I meant. Maybe that'll make it easier for you to read it.

It is wrong to misrepresent pop music as belonging to a subculture that it does not. Doing so places the ideas of the genre on the bands that most people are aware of, and the older, more obscure bands, have their work and their effort to do something that doesn't fit with the ideas that the subculture bands did. Let's, for a second, forget the question of whether the subculture is correct or incorrect, and simply adress this. Is it right to rewrite the history of a movement to fit your own marketing aim, so you can sell to posturing teenagers the concept of rebellion, mass-marketed in a major outlet?

i know a few people that could be called emo by their appearence. two of them are my friends, the other is not. one of them we call emu, he is a bit depressive and he does have the emo haircut but he doesn't usually wear makeup and he has some cool piercings. he might be into emo music but i don't really know what that is. my other friend who looks a bit emo is into ska-punk which isn't very emo at all, she's really just a girly girl who also likes punk so she ends up looking a bit emo with the combination of associated clothing styles. the other person is just a dick with a crap haircut who listens to really boring music.

I thought those things were called obnoxious upper middle class kids, or just cunts for short.

All synonyms.

In Soviet Russia, emos know real you!

It is wrong to misrepresent pop music as belonging to a subculture that it does not. Doing so places the ideas of the genre on the bands that most people are aware of, and the older, more obscure bands, have their work and their effort to do something that doesn't fit with the ideas that the subculture bands did. Let's, for a second, forget the question of whether the subculture is correct or incorrect, and simply adress this. Is it right to rewrite the history of a movement to fit your own marketing aim, so you can sell to posturing teenagers the concept of rebellion, mass-marketed in a major outlet?

You're joking, right? Is it wrong? The idea of a subculture is basically a marketing scheme in itself. It's one person doing something to stand out and everybody else buying into it. Just because somebody stuffs it in a can and puts a label on it doesn't make a difference. If you are wanting to do something unique and you look around and there's a large group of people that looks JUST like you...You failed.

I know the emo cat:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a192/piggy_g87/Cats/116960444288816.jpg

You're joking, right? Is it wrong? The idea of a subculture is basically a marketing scheme in itself. It's one person doing something to stand out and everybody else buying into it. Just because somebody stuffs it in a can and puts a label on it doesn't make a difference. If you are wanting to do something unique and you look around and there's a large group of people that looks JUST like you...You failed.

You also forgot to say that teenagers will rebell anyway, make a lot of noise, stink up the place, so hey why not make some cash out of the saps anyhoo!


Mwwahahhahhahhha:eek:

I have no problem with the lyrical approach to emo, hell Pink Floyd has some pretty negative stuff. The blues is quite negative too, nope, it's the musical approach that bothers me.

I fail to see (from what I've heard) how three chords can equal music. Now I like the Sex Pistols for punk (and MCR, but that's because they're nuts) but that's pretty much it. But when it comes to emo (as in DC emo), I don't know. It's just not me.

I prefer bands that take me somewhere, like Rush, Muse, Cream. Punk is like... masturbation. But like the five minute version.

It feels good but then you go "meh".

I don't mind modern MTV emo either (like Taking Back Sunday, effin' catchy). But to keep on the subject.

I know emos in the sense they listen to punk, but do I know depressed folk? Mmm... nope. Not really, to tell you the truth depressed folk would be driven to even more depression if they went to my school. But there ya go.

"Real" emos are a myth spread about and propagated the theBavarian Illiminati. Fnord.

You're joking, right? Is it wrong? The idea of a subculture is basically a marketing scheme in itself. It's one person doing something to stand out and everybody else buying into it. Just because somebody stuffs it in a can and puts a label on it doesn't make a difference. If you are wanting to do something unique and you look around and there's a large group of people that looks JUST like you...You failed.

Oh jesus...

Kay, let's cut out jaded or romantic views of subculture. Supress both, and look at it from a different angle.

The Green party stands for a set of policies, many of which are liberal, no? So, let's say a radical Libertarian of the randist kind ran for office. If he, because he and the Libertarian party had more money, and had access to mainstream media, ran for office under the Green Party title, and claimed that all Greens supported Lasseiz Faire policies, would it be wrong?

Same thing applies.

Many. However, that might reflect my social circle more than anything else.

I'd rather be me than one of the posturing, self-important morons who populate mainstream culture. I don't really care how you choose to take it. I may be an "elitist" snob, but at least I'm not dishonest about it.

Sorry to echo you so slavishly, but thank you for saying that.:)

I'm not talking about the "Ooo...I'm depressed and wear makeup!" People, more the "I cut myself" kinda people. Because it mostly seems to be the makeup people who show up more.


Cutting is a serious issue, not purely relegated to "emo" types. It is a major symptom of borderline personality disorder, which is a serious problem in American society these days.

Info on BPD - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder

most cutters aren't very open about it, because they don't do it for attention.

Those that do annoy me. A girl I work with - who I despise for reasons that shall remain unknown - is constantly bitching to me about how she cuts herself in different places and how even thinking about her ex-boyfriend makes her sick. So when I see her with her ex-boyfriend, it just makes me think "flaming hypocrite." She really does piss me off.
[/rant]

Cutting is a serious issue, not purely relegated to "emo" types. It is a major symptom of borderline personality disorder, which is a serious problem in American society these days.

Info on BPD - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder

Indeed. Many cutters are really not open about it, and they're the ones that need help - the ones that keep to themselves, not the ones with the ridiculous fringes or tight jeans.

Those that do annoy me. A girl I work with - who I despise for reasons that shall remain unknown - is constantly bitching to me about how she cuts herself in different places and how even thinking about her ex-boyfriend makes her sick. So when I see her with her ex-boyfriend, it just makes me think "flaming hypocrite." She really does piss me off.
[/rant]

People are pathetic like that though. I'm not a great fan of "populised emo" a la Fall Out Boy and the like, if only because I've been alternative for years, and frankly I resent people invading the territory, however, the disengenousity and attention whoring that follows is sodding annoying.

People are pathetic like that though. I'm not a great fan of "populised emo" a la Fall Out Boy and the like, if only because I've been alternative for years, and frankly I resent people invading the territory, however, the disengenousity and attention whoring that follows is sodding annoying.

You should see them at the local gigs in my area. Just....you have no idea. It's disgusting. "I'm gunna wear my sisters jeans, clear a space on the floor and thrash my arms around like a prick!" You just think to yourself "mosh like a man you girl."

You should see them at the local gigs in my area. Just....you have no idea. It's disgusting. "I'm gunna wear my sisters jeans, clear a space on the floor and thrash my arms around like a prick!" You just think to yourself "mosh like a man you girl."

Well over that. Being nearly 18 and all, its easier to gravitate to the bar and watch from there;)

Not proud at all, but I went to see Cute is what we aim for last thursday, and I swear most people there hadn't heard of any bands other than the headliners and fall out boy, and were no older than 16.

Well over that. Being nearly 18 and all, its easier to gravitate to the bar and watch from there;)

Not proud at all, but I went to see Cute is what we aim for last thursday, and I swear most people there hadn't heard of any bands other than the headliners and fall out boy, and were no older than 16.

A lot of people go to gigs purely because it's a gig. What's the fucking point? "Yeah, I'm gunna go watch a band for the hell of it! What a good use of my time and money!" It's kinda sad. I'm in quite a bad mood, if you hadn't guessed.

Trilby63;12303897']"Real" emos are a myth spread about and propagated the theBavarian Illiminati. Fnord.

What the fuck? That sentence just ends with "Illimaniti". Although I do feel somewhat uneasy.

A lot of people go to gigs purely because it's a gig. What's the fucking point? "Yeah, I'm gunna go watch a band for the hell of it! What a good use of my time and money!" It's kinda sad. I'm in quite a bad mood, if you hadn't guessed.

Don't mind me. I've been in a permanent bad mood since June 2005, and don't plan to emerge until October when I go to uni.;)

Don't mind me. I've been in a permanent bad mood since June 2005, and don't plan to emerge until October when I go to uni.;)

So I've got to wait till Uni before I turn happy clappy again? Sep. 2008, here I come!

So I've got to wait till Uni before I turn happy clappy again? Sep. 2008, here I come!

My comiserations. :p

My sixth form experiance has been fucking awful. Single sex grammar school gets rid of its "undesirable" students (namely, all of my friends), at the end of year eleven, and I spend two years dealing with middle class girls with all the originality of a doormat, pretentious aspiring intellectuals, and rugby players.

My comiserations. :p

My sixth form experiance has been fucking awful. Single sex grammar school gets rid of its "undesirable" students (namely, all of my friends), at the end of year eleven, and I spend two years dealing with middle class girls with all the originality of a doormat, pretentious aspiring intellectuals, and rugby players.

Single sex schools win a shovel award for excellence. Would anyone like to collect this award?

My comiserations. :p

My sixth form experiance has been fucking awful. Single sex grammar school gets rid of its "undesirable" students (namely, all of my friends), at the end of year eleven, and I spend two years dealing with middle class girls with all the originality of a doormat, pretentious aspiring intellectuals, and rugby players.

Meh my sixth form ain't so bad. Could be better. We got rid of all the 'tards from last year, which was fantastic. All the chavy bastards were sort of purged. It was great :D

Single sex schools win a shovel award for excellence. Would anyone like to collect this award?

Provided I can shove it irretrievably far into the rectum of my head of year.

Meh my sixth form ain't so bad. Could be better. We got rid of all the 'tards from last year, which was fantastic. All the chavy bastards were sort of purged. It was great :D

We just got rid of all the fun people, and, until about October this year, I simply decided I couldn;t be arsed with the people that were there. Shame really, since I reckon I could have quite a laugh if I hadn't been such a fool.

Provided I can shove it irretrievably far into the rectum of my head of year.

I'll go directly to him.

*Walks to TBC's school.*
"Hello, I have an award to deliver to the head of year."
"Okay, he's in his office."
*WHAM! DIG, DIG, DIG!*

I'm not talking about the "Ooo...I'm depressed and wear makeup!" People, more the "I cut myself" kinda people. Because it mostly seems to be the makeup people who show up more.

If myself counts, then yes, although I can't cut myself because the scissors aren't sharp enough.

Cutting isn't emo. Teenage angst isn't emo. Emo is a type of hardcore.

...

You sound like you know what you're talking about.
Hardcore with really depressing lyrics is about what I need just now.
Can you recommend any band/song?

As Haare said, just because everyone else is wrong, doesn't mean that you should accept their description. In this case, the way that record-label bosses have chosen to attach the name "Emo" to pop music masquerading as subculture. Their definition is accepted by the spoon-fed simpletons who hang on the words of the music elite, but it is not correct, and it is unfair to the hard working, genuinely subculture artists who really are emo.

You too. What's good?

I understand if you don't want to expose your favourite music to the uninformed mockery so plentiful here. You could email me jjvsATpnc.com.au ... 'cos I genuinely want to hear some.

You sound like you know what you're talking about.
Hardcore with really depressing lyrics is about what I need just now.
Can you recommend any band/song?


You too. What's good?

Haare is a better source for this than I, because I tend towards a small subset of all the Emo out there, but I'll recommend a couple of my favorites, with the preface that they are hardly representative of the whole scene:

Embrace (http://youtube.com/watch?v=ejIOlnpdcNc&mode=related&search=) one of the origional Emo bands, along with Rights of Spring and Beefeater.

and

Fugazi (http://youtube.com/watch?v=SGJFWirQ3ks), one of the more famous of the real Emo bands.

You sound like you know what you're talking about.
Hardcore with really depressing lyrics is about what I need just now.
Can you recommend any band/song?



You too. What's good?

I understand if you don't want to expose your favourite music to the uninformed mockery so plentiful here. You could email me jjvsATpnc.com.au ... 'cos I genuinely want to hear some.

Rites of Spring is a good "true" emo band.

IM EMO! YAY!:confused:

You sound like you know what you're talking about.
Hardcore with really depressing lyrics is about what I need just now.
Can you recommend any band/song?



You too. What's good?

I understand if you don't want to expose your favourite music to the uninformed mockery so plentiful here. You could email me jjvsATpnc.com.au ... 'cos I genuinely want to hear some.

Most emo doesn't have depressing lyrics, in fact alot of the bands have rather hopeful lyrics, but anyways...

If you want shouty, chunky, not too abrasive stuff then I suggest:

Four Hundred Years, Small Brown Bike, Rites of Spring, Fugazi (although Fugazi aren't really emo, just post-hardcore), At The Drive-In (also post-hardcore), Crimson Mire, Moss Icon, old Planes Mistaken For Stars (although they've started playing more stoner rock type material), Still Life...

If you want stuff that builds up to screamy climaxes then I suggest:

Indian Summer, Saetia, Envy, I Hate Myself(who, ironically, don't sing about self-loathing)...

If you want wall of noise chaos, then I suggest:

Orchid, Usurp Synapse, Jerome's Dream, Ampere, Pg.99, Neil Perry, Combat Wounded Veteran...

Do you mean one of these (http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/anym/big.gif)?

Most emo ...
Excellent. So far I can say I like Rites of Spring better than Fugazi (noting your qualification on that one tho.)
At least I can say I've heard some emo music. I'm an old codger, you know.


If you want wall of noise chaos, then I suggest:

Orchid, Usurp Synapse, Jerome's Dream, Ampere, Pg.99, Neil Perry, Combat Wounded Veteran...

Mmmm. Wall-of-noise chaos. I'll check those out!
Thanks for your comprehensive answer. :)

I know lots of "Emo" people. Only two of these such people wear black. The other dozen or two all dress perfectly normally. Nine of them are in an E.D. class (It stands for "emotionally disturbed" (Yes, it really does.).), and three of them have been committed (on suicide watch), mostly for reasons of depression. Real depression doesn't masquerade as "emo." People who are really depressed act normally. They might seem a little stressed, tired, guilty, open (about more minor things), dazed, distracted, and even perhaps a little desperate, but they won't seem sad. The truely depressed don't show it in public. They have facades of happiness and normality. That's why so many people don't see it coming...

The truely depressed are rarely ever "emo."

Cutting is a serious issue, not purely relegated to "emo" types. It is a major symptom of borderline personality disorder, which is a serious problem in American society these days.

Info on BPD - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder

Perhaps a major symptom of such, but not the other way around. None of the people I know who've ever cut themsleves had that disorder. They just did it, because physical pain is so much better than mental pain. I'd rather have my leg sawed off slowly with no anesthetic than have depression again. Seriously. I really do mean that. Depression sucks. People who've never had it, close though they may be to those who do, will never understand it, because it is so incomprehensibly (literally) painful.

Perhaps a major symptom of such, but not the other way around. None of the people I know who've ever cut themsleves had that disorder. They just did it, because physical pain is so much better than mental pain. I'd rather have my leg sawed off slowly with no anesthetic than have depression again. Seriously. I really do mean that. Depression sucks. People who've never had it, close though they may be to those who do, will never understand it, because it is so incomprehensibly (literally) painful.

Just because a person has not been diagnosed (or perhaps not been told their diagnosis, as is often done with BPD) does not mean they don't have it. I have yet to meet a "cutter" who did not also have BPD, and that includes the ones who "do it for attention."