NationStates Jolt Archive

I know its an emotive issue so hopefully we can keep it civil.

This is the story of how a cat was killed. It is not pleasant.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6331411.stm

Suspended sentence for cat killer

A woman who killed her boyfriend's cat by putting it in a washing machine has received a four-month suspended jail sentence.

Diane Hannon, 42, from Old Colwyn, Conwy, admitted causing unnecessary suffering and cruelly ill-treating six-year-old Paws, who was deaf.

Paws suffered a heart attack, severe burns and loss of fur.

Llandudno magistrates heard Hannon, who suffers depression, was cat-sitting for Duncan Carthy when the pair argued.

The prosecution said Hannon and Mr Carthy had rowed about Mr Carthy's ex-wife and children while he was visiting his son in July last year.

The trial, in December last year, heard Mr Carthy thought Hannon was joking when she told him over the phone that she had killed Paws.

Glen Murphy, prosecuting for the RSPCA, said: "Duncan Carthy called Miss Hannon and asked if the cat was all right, and she replied: 'I hate you. No, I've killed it.'

Now for me I would rather see the culprit in prison receiving treatment for her depression. Killing like that is cruel and quite frankly revolting.

However I also have no problem with hunting (not fox and hound though...rather fox and gun). I do not see cruelty in dispatching vermin.

I do not support horse and hound as it is entirely pointless for the amount of effort put in. I used to be a fringe member of hunt sabs in the late '80s. I soon left as they were willing to put human lives at risk for a politcal statement regarding animals.

:(

:(

Quite.

*sigh*

I volunteer for the Humane Society, and have seen so many abused animals. It always frustrates me at how relatively little punishment these criminals receive. Animal abusers should have to register, like sex offenders.

Nasty...

*sigh*

I volunteer for the Humane Society, and have seen so many abused animals. It always frustrates me at how relatively little punishment these criminals receive.

I know the feeling. :( I live in a fairly secluded area, which means I encounter animals who've been dumped by the side of the road on a depressingly regular basis. I've rescued all those I can, but it never fails to make me want to hunt down the asses responsible and throw them out in the middle of nowhere with no food or shelter for a while, just to see how much they enjoy it.

I know its an emotive issue so hopefully we can keep it civil.

This is the story of how a cat was killed. It is not pleasant.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6331411.stm



Now for me I would rather see the culprit in prison receiving treatment for her depression. Killing like that is cruel and quite frankly revolting.

However I also have no problem with hunting (not fox and hound though...rather fox and gun). I do not see cruelty in dispatching vermin.

I do not support horse and hound as it is entirely pointless for the amount of effort put in. I used to be a fringe member of hunt sabs in the late '80s. I soon left as they were willing to put human lives at risk for a politcal statement regarding animals.
I would find a way to cause the death of the person who did this. This is unacceptable. If anyone would ever harm my two cats, the respective person would have to pay with life. I'd gladly go to prison for it.

I would find a way to cause the death of the person who did this. This is unacceptable. If anyone would ever harm my two cats, the respective person would have to pay with life. I'd gladly go to prison for it.

So a cat's life is worth more than a person's? You're a hypocrite, killing a cat is wrong, but killing a person as revenge is fine?

*sigh*

I volunteer for the Humane Society, and have seen so many abused animals. It always frustrates me at how relatively little punishment these criminals receive. Animal abusers should have to register, like sex offenders.

I suspect there is a general fear about raising the status of animals too high, which impacts on the consequences reserved for cruelty to animals. Sad.

So a cat's life is worth more than a person's? You're a hypocrite, killing a cat is wrong, but killing a person as revenge is fine?

I don't think killing in revenge is fine, but this person is obviously a danger - and I doubt just to animals. A person who will intentionally torture an animal is unlikely to have many personal qualms about harming a person, especially if they can easily overcome said person. The penalty for this sort of thing shouldn't be death, but it should be steep.

Of course, the law can be pretty nonsensical at times. In my state, animal cruelty is a felony offense. Child neglect, on the other hand, is a misdemeanor. WTF? I'm not saying that animal cruelty shouldn't be a felony, but child neglect should certainly rank higher.

I'm just rambling, aren't I?

Yeah you're rambling but it's a rather directed ramble that makes some sense.

So a cat's life is worth more than a person's? You're a hypocrite, killing a cat is wrong, but killing a person as revenge is fine?
yes. of course a cat's life is worth more than a cat-killer's. someone who purposely kills has dropped out of humanity and deserves to meet the same fate.

poor cat :(

crazy lady :(

So a cat's life is worth more than a person's? You're a hypocrite, killing a cat is wrong, but killing a person as revenge is fine?
Agreed. However cruel and sadistic it may be, it's fucked up to put a animal's life before a human's.


Similarly, while I agree with animal rights and cannot understand the cruelty some people inflict on innocent animals, human suffering is by far more serious and a more pressing issue to deal with. However awful cases like this may be, and I obviously don't oppose working against them, I do not understand people who would define themselves with animal rights before human rights and who prioritise in that way.
[/a general thing about animal rights and animal cruelty, and not aimed at the OP or anyone specific really]

On hunting, don't have much of a strong view, partly for what I said above.
Obviously there are differences between practical killing and sadistic killing, and also some differences between traditions and sadism (though I still don't really get the tradition of hunting as entertainment but *shrugs*).

However cruel and sadistic it may be, it's fucked up to put a animal's life before a human's.Why? No life is above another life. Humans are not above animals, nor is human suffering more important or serious than any other creature's suffering.

to animal rights protesters i say:-
remove the log from your own eye before you remove the speck from someone else's

damn i'm not a christian yet even i use this quote alot, mostly against christians tho:D

Agreed. However cruel and sadistic it may be, it's fucked up to put a animal's life before a human's.


what you mean is you're scared of the idea of humans putting their lives before animals?

seems the opposite of fucked up to me, seems quite selfless and valiant

On hunting, don't have much of a strong view, partly for what I said above.
Obviously there are differences between practical killing and sadistic killing, and also some differences between traditions and sadism (though I still don't really get the tradition of hunting as entertainment but *shrugs*).

Personally, I don't have a problem with hunting in general. I don't understand the mentality that would lead someone to gain enjoyment from killing things, but anyone who eats meat (like me) is eating an animal that used to be alive. If the hunter eats (or distributes to people who will) the meat from the kill, I've really got no problem with it.

I do, however, have a problem with reckless hunters who needlessly harm animals in the process. I used to live near a major hunting range and, every season, I would see starving dogs left for dead on the side of the road. Basically, the hunters who used dogs would quite often get drunk as hell and, if they couldn't find their dogs, they just left them out there. Thing is, these dogs are generally not socialized with other people very well, and are trained not to eat the animals they find for the hunters. The result is that they won't come near other people, and they won't scavenge for food as they starve to death on the side of the road. Every few years, my state legislature proposes a law that would require hunters to register their dogs. Every time it happens, a bunch of hunters show up at the Capital to protest the fact that they might actually have to be responsible for their animals. And so the legislators from rural areas (most of the state) get scared of losing votes and don't pass it.

Agreed. However cruel and sadistic it may be, it's fucked up to put a animal's life before a human's.


Similarly, while I agree with animal rights and cannot understand the cruelty some people inflict on innocent animals, human suffering is by far more serious and a more pressing issue to deal with. However awful cases like this may be, and I obviously don't oppose working against them, I do not understand people who would define themselves with animal rights before human rights and who prioritise in that way.
[/a general thing about animal rights and animal cruelty, and not aimed at the OP or anyone specific really]

On hunting, don't have much of a strong view, partly for what I said above.
Obviously there are differences between practical killing and sadistic killing, and also some differences between traditions and sadism (though I still don't really get the tradition of hunting as entertainment but *shrugs*).

Do you think the human should be punished for the actions which led to the animals death?

For what its worth I pretty much agree with all you have said...like I posted...I left the hut sabs when they started to get really crazy.

Of course this also included anti vivisectionists...and they were rather rabid if not insane. So I left. Not that I was really that involved in the direct action stuff.

Why? No life is above another life.

I take it you don't ever take antibiotics, then?

I take it you don't ever take antibiotics, then?

well it could be that all life is equal in it's worthlessness maybe? then antibiotics would be fine, as well as murder etc.

Of course this also included anti vivisectionists...and they were rather rabid if not insane. So I left. Not that I was really that involved in the direct action stuff.

I love it that they call themselves "anti vivisectionists." Would they use the term "vivisection" for any surgery? It isn't as if researchers are allowed to cut live animals up with no anesthetic. Well, that's true unless said animals are bugs or worms, in which case nobody seems to care. The amount of caring seems to be directly proportional to the cute and cuddliness of the animal in question.

I take it you don't ever take antibiotics, then?no, i don't. but that has nothing to do with killing animals for fun or food.

no, i don't. but that has nothing to do with killing animals for fun or food.

good for you man, fight the power!:)

well it could be that all life is equal in it's worthlessness maybe? then antibiotics would be fine, as well as murder etc.well, especially humanity has already proven many times that it's worthless.

no, i don't. but that has nothing to do with killing animals for fun or food.

No, but it is absolutely required if "no life is above another life." In fact, your body is killing off bacteria right now. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I would presume, of course, that you are a fruitarian?

well, especially humanity has already proven many times that it's worthless.

:mad: awwww, what about on an individual level? surely we have a chance at becoming something special as people?

:mad: awwww, what about on an individual level? surely we have a chance at becoming something special as people?special in what way?

However I also have no problem with hunting (not fox and hound though...rather fox and gun). I do not see cruelty in dispatching vermin.Oh, like cats aren't vermin.
It's how you dispatch of them that matters, and whether you avoid doing it when there's no call for it.

Why? No life is above another life. Humans are not above animals, nor is human suffering more important or serious than any other creature's suffering.Any sympathy for plants? Insects? Unicellular organisms?
Just to gauge if you draw arbitrary lines anywhere

special in what way?

something good, i dunno i mean theres lots of good stuff we *could* do right?

Why? No life is above another life. Humans are not above animals, nor is human suffering more important or serious than any other creature's suffering.
Yes they are, and yes it is.
If you have lived in this world and cannot see the obvious differences between humans and animals then... *shrugs*

what you mean is you're scared of the idea of humans putting their lives before animals?

seems the opposite of fucked up to me, seems quite selfless and valiant
Actually, I was referring to killing a human life because of the loss of an animal life.

I have no problem with a human putting their own life before animals, though I don't understand it, and I personally think they could make their own life far more worthwhile with other causes.

Personally, I don't have a problem with hunting in general. I don't understand the mentality that would lead someone to gain enjoyment from killing things, but anyone who eats meat (like me) is eating an animal that used to be alive. If the hunter eats (or distributes to people who will) the meat from the kill, I've really got no problem with it.
Good point and agreed.

I do, however, have a problem with reckless hunters who needlessly harm animals in the process. -snip-
Hmm, I can definitly see your problem with that.

I have quite a lot of friends who hunt, living in a fairly rural area in England, and it was very strange for me at first. But luckily they aren't careless, are fairly reasonable about it and do it very "professionally" and with a lot of regulation and care taken.

Do you think the human should be punished for the actions which led to the animals death?
Yeah, I think so, and a few months in jail (along with your suggestion of some psychological treatment) seems reasonable to me, to discourage cruelty without being excessive. I'd really have to look at the punishment in comparison to other sentences, to see what I think would be fair.

Agreed. However cruel and sadistic it may be, it's fucked up to put a animal's life before a human's.I'd say it depends on the circumstances. But then I wouldn't necessarily mind spammers, trolls and (rl) vandals being shot..

something good, i dunno i mean theres lots of good stuff we *could* do right?and?

and?

well humanity would never acheive anything with your attitude:mad:

Yes they are, and yes it is.
If you have lived in this world and cannot see the obvious differences between humans and animals then... *shrugs*he obvious differences between humans and animals don't constitute differences in worthiness. the overestimation of humanity is the reason why this planet is dying.

well humanity would never acheive anything with your attitude:mad:you have to purposely kill to achieve anything? and how does an achievement make you special or more worthy? when i achieve anything, i stay the same nonetheless. and i never keep what i achieve, i give it away. i don't live to possess, you know, i'm like Aulë in that regard.

you have to purposely kill to achieve anything?

you have to *believe* in yourself!!! not think your worthless cause you make some mistakes

you have to purposely kill to achieve anything?

Purposely? Maybe not. But you do have to kill. After all, you'd be dead if you weren't ending lives all the time.

and how does an achievement make you special or more worthy? when i achieve anything, i stay the same nonetheless.

What does make you special or worthy?

I love it that they call themselves "anti vivisectionists." Would they use the term "vivisection" for any surgery? It isn't as if researchers are allowed to cut live animals up with no anesthetic. Well, that's true unless said animals are bugs or worms, in which case nobody seems to care. The amount of caring seems to be directly proportional to the cute and cuddliness of the animal in question.

Sadly they include the creepy crawlies these days as well...

you have to *believe* in yourself!!! not think your worthless cause you make some mistakesdoes your "worth" depend on what you do? and i don't have to *believe* in myself, i *know* who i am. and i am in no competition.
and i don't see why my life and my will to live should put me above a cat and his/her will to live.

does your "worth" depend on what you do? and i don't have to *believe* in myself, i *know* who i am. and i am in no competition. And i don't see why my life and my will to live should put me above a cat and his/her will to live.

Well, then why are you still alive?

I would think if you consider your life equally as valuable as that of a cat you would go ahead and kill yourself immediately so as to prevent more animals from dying due to your resource consumption and pollutant emissions.

does your "worth" depend on what you do? and i don't have to *believe* in myself, i *know* who i am. and i am in no competition.
and i don't see why my life and my will to live should put me above a cat and his/her will to live.

believe, BELIEVE!!!! then slowly you become more and more amazing, no matter the circumstance:D

you should always be competeing to improve yourself, otherwise your dead pretty much

Purposely? Maybe not. But you do have to kill. After all, you'd be dead if you weren't ending lives all the time.not purposely.

What does make you special or worthy?i am not special or worthy. i am just me. that's enough.

believe, BELIEVE!!!! then slowly you become more and more amazing, no matter the circumstance:Dwhy would i need to become amazing? and since i have a functioning brain and reason i need no belief to accomplish anything.

why would i need to become amazing? and since i have a functioning brain and reason i need no belief to accomplish anything.

meh, die miserably then:mad:

Animal Cruelty? It hurts so much, on the inside, when they are cruel to me...

meh, die miserably then :mad:i really think you don't have the right goals in life. if you need someone else's amazement to be content, you are doing something wrong. i don't need to believe in myself to do something. i just need to do it.

not purposely.

Irrelevant. The very fact that you are living results in deaths constantly. If you truly think no life is above another, and taking any life is evil, shouldn't you consider yourself as deserving execution?

i am not special or worthy. i am just me. that's enough.

If you aren't worthy, then that isn't enough. Why should you even be here?

i really think you don't have the right goals in life. if you need someone else's amazement to be content, you are doing something wrong. i don't need to believe in myself to do something. i just need to do it.

woah i only need my own amazement, then i am inspired, then i do watever it is set out to do

you seem to do stuff the way a machine does it, "i just do it" wat a machine would do!

Irrelevant. The very fact that you are living results in deaths constantly. If you truly think no life is above another, and taking any life is evil, shouldn't you consider yourself as deserving execution?At least I have a choice to reduce the number of deaths I cause as much as possible. Unlike you. Would you also eat other humans? If not, why not?

If you aren't worthy, then that isn't enough. Why should you even be here?That is enough. And why should you be here?

woah i only need my own amazement, then i am inspired, then i do watever it is set out to do
you seem to do stuff the way a machine does it, "i just do it" wat a machine would do!what? believing in yourself means you are not sure about yourself. i know my abilities and i don't need to boast in self-belief. no-one has ever complained about the results of my work, on the contrary. but that does not make me special or anything. and i never dwell on what i have created or achieved, i move on to the next challenge. as i said, i'm somewhat like Aulë.

At least I have a choice to reduce the number of deaths I cause as much as possible. Unlike you.

Unlike me, eh? Never mind that my life's work is to reduce the number of deaths from disease, right? Personally, I don't think that *all* death is a bad thing. Death is a part of life. The idea is to reduce suffering, not death.

I'm simply expecting you to live up to your stated viewpoint. If you truly believe that all lives are equal, you shouldn't still be here. You should be doing all you can to reduce the number of deaths you cause - which would be death for yourself. Otherwise, it becomes exceedingly clear that you do not think all lives are the same. Yours is obviously more important to you.

And you never answered my question. Are you a fruitarian?

Would you also eat other humans? If not, why not?

Nope. I'm not a cannibal.

That is enough.

Mere existence is all you want out of life?

And why should you be here?

I am trying to do some good with my life.

Animal Cruelty? It hurts so much, on the inside, when they are cruel to me...

hurts on the inside?!? just what ARE they doing to you? something sexual i hope:D

Are you a fruitarian? almost.

Nope. I'm not a cannibal.why?

I am trying to do some good with my life.so you can brag about it.

what? believing in yourself means you are not sure about yourself. i know my abilities and i don't need to boast in self-belief. no-one has ever complained about the results of my work, on the contrary. but that does not make me special or anything. and i never dwell on what i have created or achieved, i move on to the next challenge. as i said, i'm somewhat like Aulë.

well when i hit a wall, it hurts, when i hit a wall and believe in myself it doesn't hurt

you belief contributes everything, without it you'd fall apart

why?

Because I'm a human being, and that is murder?

so you can brag about it.

I seriously doubt Dempublicents1 is doing it because they want to brag. There are people out there who do good because they like doing good for it's own sake, you know. Not everything is a cold, calculated move meant to advance your own self interest; a life like that would be a personal torment unrivaled by any of the classical depictions of hell.

what? believing in yourself means you are not sure about yourself.

No, it means:

i know my abilities

almost.

Just almost? You murderer!


why?

Because. It would require murder, it's disgusting, and it's unhealthy.

so you can brag about it.

Right........:rolleyes:

Not everyone lacks empathy, you know.

Because I'm a human being, and that is murder? And? What's the difference between eating the dead body of a human and eating the dead body of a cow, pig, or bird?

I seriously doubt Dempublicents1 is doing it because they want to brag. There are people out there who do good because they like doing good, you know.But doing good doesn't make someone more "worthy" than he was before.

And? What's the difference between eating the dead body of a human and eating the dead body of a cow, pig, or bird? We illegalize the consumption of one but not others? I mean, if trapped on an island and there were hunks of meat and I needed to sustain myself then for all moral purposes these hunks are interchangeable.

But doing good doesn't make someone more "worthy" than he was before.
So, you would claim that having a positive influence on the world does not matter at all? Interesting, and ridiculous. It seems obvious that one's fellow man would put a higher value on those who do them good than who do them evil, so from the standpoint of those who live that must be placed high upon the scale. If we argue that man's viewpoint doesn't matter then whose does? Moral truth is beyond our comprehension, and to claim that you have a monopoly on it seems far from accurate.

I don't think killing in revenge is fine, but this person is obviously a danger - and I doubt just to animals. A person who will intentionally torture an animal is unlikely to have many personal qualms about harming a person, especially if they can easily overcome said person. The penalty for this sort of thing shouldn't be death, but it should be steep.

Of course, the law can be pretty nonsensical at times. In my state, animal cruelty is a felony offense. Child neglect, on the other hand, is a misdemeanor. WTF? I'm not saying that animal cruelty shouldn't be a felony, but child neglect should certainly rank higher.

I'm just rambling, aren't I?

Not saying it is ok....but child neglect and child abuse are two different crimes. That is why neglect is a misdemeanor I bet Abuse is a felony in your state.

We illegalize the consumption of one but not others? I mean, if trapped on an island and there were hunks of meat and I needed to sustain myself then for all moral purposes these hunks are interchangeable.But would you kill to sustain yourself?

So, you would claim that having a positive influence on the world does not matter at all? Interesting, and ridiculous. It seems obvious that one's fellow man would put a higher value on those who do them good than who do them evil, so from the standpoint of those who live that must be placed high upon the scale. If we argue that man's viewpoint doesn't matter then whose does? Moral truth is beyond our comprehension, and to claim that you have a monopoly on it seems far from accurate.Moral truth doesn't exist. And if you do good, that's just that. It doesn't increase your worth in any respect. Why and how would it? And worth against what? It seems humility is beyond your comprehension.

:(

Ayeh, man.

Not saying it is ok....but child neglect and child abuse are two different crimes. That is why neglect is a misdemeanor I bet Abuse is a felony in your state.

Child neglect can lead to a child's suffering and possible death. I don't think it should be a lesser charge than animal cruelty.


But would you kill to sustain yourself?

Would you? After all, you already do.

Moral truth doesn't exist. And if you do good, that's just that. It doesn't increase your worth in any respect. Why and how would it? And worth against what? It seems humility is beyond your comprehension.

Humility doesn't mean that one is somehow unworthy. It simply means that one is not arrogant about their actions.

Doing good doesn't increase your worth. But failure to do so decreases it. One whose only goal in life is to exist - who does nothing to better themselves or the world around them - is worthy of nothing.

And? What's the difference between eating the dead body of a human and eating the dead body of a cow, pig, or bird?

Well, for one, human flesh doesn't taste particularly good, and most people aren't comfortable with eating their dead friends or family unless it's life or death.

In principle, I have no problem with eating human flesh for survival; I would do so and I would have no problem with others doing it in order to survive...chances are the deceased would feel the same way,

I do have problem with killing people for food.

But doing good doesn't make someone more "worthy" than he was before.

No, but not doing good does decrease it.

to better themselves or the world around them Trekkie?

At least she didn't put the boyfriend in the washing machine.

Trekkie?

Wha?

At least she didn't put the boyfriend in the washing machine.

(a) At least it would have been anger directed at the person.

(b) He might have survived it.

If she was going for punishing the boyfriend, putting him in there (although the dryer would probably be easier) would at least have made some semblance of sense.

But would you kill to sustain yourself?
Why not? I benefit from killing to sustain myself, that is why animals do it.

Moral truth doesn't exist. And if you do good, that's just that. It doesn't increase your worth in any respect. Why and how would it? And worth against what? It seems humility is beyond your comprehension.
I was arguing worth to others, if I act in a manner that benefits my fellows then it would make sense that my continued existence is more valuable to them than that of someone who does otherwise. That definitely has value in a human society. If we look beyond that then we look at nothing anyway, and it really does not matter. Ok? Why should I care about humility?

Well its been interesting so far.

So a gratuitous bump with a question -

Should meat eaters engage in the process that delivers meat to their dinner plate?

Well its been interesting so far.

So a gratuitous bump with a question -

Should meat eaters engage in the process that delivers meat to their dinner plate?


Do you mean should they be forced to hunt their own food? or that they should be involved in the slaughtering/processing/packaging process?

Despite being a vegetarian, I don't particularly care what non-veggies do with their meat. I've actually been looking into fishing and hunting as possible past times, on a very occasional basis, of course. But I also think that unnecessary cruelty to animals should carry a steeper penalty than what this woman received, as well as mandatory psychiatric treatment.

Do you mean should they be forced to hunt their own food? or that they should be involved in the slaughtering/processing/packaging process?

Despite being a vegetarian, I don't particularly care what non-veggies do with their meat. I've actually been looking into fishing and hunting as possible past times, on a very occasional basis, of course. But I also think that unnecessary cruelty to animals should carry a steeper penalty than what this woman received, as well as mandatory psychiatric treatment.

Good question...

I don't think its possible to have people hunt their food...after all cattle would be not much of a challenge.

I do think though that people should take the opportunity to visit a slaughter house or at least a farm...

Hunting is not cruel if you respect the animal you have killed. In that I mean not just as a trophy but also as a source of food.

A friend of mine is like that. It's the person I will likely be going hunting with in the (warmer) future. He never kills a doe if there are fawns nearby, never kills fawns, and always makes as much use out of a kill as possible (This is one of the things that makes it difficult for me, largely because I'm not exactly going to start eating deer jerky).

I've always been curious as to how venison tastes, though, now that I think about it.

But yes, I agree. They should see, at least once, where their meat REALLY comes from. Have you, or anyone here, by any chance heard of the Meatrix? It's PETA, and more amusing than informative, but still...
http://www.themeatrix.com/