NationStates Jolt Archive

So, last week I started a thread on a small town in Québec that recently put together a set of norms for immigrants. You can read that thread here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=516395&highlight=Quebec).

Now, we are into the second round: Canadian Muslim groups say they will file a complaint with the Quebec Human Rights Commission against the town of Herouxville over its widely reported "norms" for prospective immigrants. (http://www.guelphmercury.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=mercury/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1170676025771&call_pageid=1050067726078&col=1050421501457)

They argue that such a set of norms violates a section of the Canadian Chrter of Rights and Freedoms, specifically, the one that protects our multicultural heritage, values and identity.

Meanwhile, the other side is also in the news, as the Herouxville city councillor who came up with this idea has another idea:

But in an appearance on the popular French-language television show "Tout le monde en parle," another Herouxville councillor went one step further.

Andre Drouin, who spearheaded the controversial motion, called on Premier Jean Charest to declare an immediate state of emergency in order to "conserve the culture of (our) people."

Drouin told host Guy A. Lepage that Charest should move to eliminate all accommodations made to religious, cultural or ethnic minorities.

It would appear that the immigrants' position is protected by one of the highest laws in the land, while the councillor is obviously in need of counselling for his paranoia.

Sang et langue, my ass. We are not pure laine or vieille souche, but we are still Quebec citizens, not to be dismissed as les autres.

What the fuck, eh?

What the fuck, eh?

I couldn't agree more...I think.

It appears M. Drouin is taking a page from Jean LePen's book.

Maybe he should go back to Paris?

It appears M. Drouin is taking a page from Jean LePen's book.

Maybe he should go back to Paris?

I think he would prefer to go back to the time when only white Quebecois men had any rights and the rest of us were second class citizens. Fortunately, reality doesn't agree with him.

Don't you just love the culture of victimhood? The town feels threatened by Muslim immigrants (how do you say "teh ebil" in French?) and the Muslims are threatened by the town's reaction to feeling threatened by the Muslim immigrants and ... Anyone else feeling a little dizzy?

I thought the "norms" were in some cases overwrought, and unnecessary (Canada doesn't have a law against killing women that you think have dishonored your family?). Everyone there needs to get over his or herself.

I think he would prefer to go back to the time when only white Quebecois men had any rights and the rest of us were second class citizens. Fortunately, reality doesn't agree with him.

Perhaps he should support the separatists, eh?

Perhaps he should support the separatists, eh?

I have found no indication of whether or not he supports the separatist movement, but since the separatist movement is a nationalist one, and nationalism can play a part in xenophobia and racism, I would not be surprised to find out that he is a separatist.

Drouin told host Guy A. Lepage that Charest should move to eliminate all accommodations made to religious, cultural or ethnic minorities.

Well, isn't that ironic?
What ever happened to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" ...?

Well, isn't that ironic?
What ever happened to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" ...?

Apparently that only applies to people who can prove their Quebecois ancestry and are practicing Catholics.

a lot of fuss over very little, I don't take it seriously...I'm an immigrant myself and I'm not offended by it and I agree with it's objective...when you move to another country blend in with the locals and don't expect them to turn their culture upside down to accommodate you, if you're offended by your new home's culture then move on...

a lot of fuss over very little, I don't take it seriously...I'm an immigrant myself and I'm not offended by it and I agree with it's objective...when you move to another country blend in with the locals and don't expect them to turn their culture upside down to accommodate you, if you're offended by your new home's culture then move on...

This is not a case of immigrants refusing to blend. This is a case of an ethnocentric community, expressing their xenophobia via a set of bylaws that are redundant, and overtly offensive. It is not legal anywhere in Canada to stone women, throw acid in someone's face etc. Is is not ILLEGAL anywhere in Canada for a woman to wear a veil...and trying to make it so is a blatant violation of the Charter. You're right, this is a lot of fuss over very little...a lot of fuss kicked up by narrow-minded bigots intent on asserting their own 'higher morality' over newcomers by assuming the worst.

Canada is a multicultural country, and that is affirmed in the highest law of the land. Canada's culture is not homogenous, and trying to make is so is actually unconstitutional. Immigrants are not allowed to come here and break our laws...but they are not required to come here and toss their culture aside either. Anyone supporting this needs to remember that they themselves are immigrants to this land.

This is not a case of immigrants refusing to blend. This is a case of an ethnocentric community, expressing their xenophobia via a set of bylaws that are redundant, and overtly offensive. It is not legal anywhere in Canada to stone women, throw acid in someone's face etc. Is is not ILLEGAL anywhere in Canada for a woman to wear a veil...and trying to make it so is a blatant violation of the Charter. You're right, this is a lot of fuss over very little...a lot of fuss kicked up by narrow-minded bigots intent on asserting their own 'higher morality' over newcomers by assuming the worst.

Canada is a multicultural country, and that is affirmed in the highest law of the land. Canada's culture is not homogenous, and trying to make is so is actually unconstitutional. Immigrants are not allowed to come here and break our laws...but they are not required to come here and toss their culture aside either. Anyone supporting this needs to remember that they themselves are immigrants to this land.
I really wish you'd just say what you mean, Neesika. :p

I really wish you'd just say what you mean, Neesika. :p

I know, I'm annoyingly obtuse at times :D

they may have been clumsy and insensitive in their message but I understand it...no one really expects people to give up their religion when coming here but we are a secular society so don't expect locals others to bend their morality to avoid offending you...I would use the situation mentioned where a YMCA tinted their windows so as not to offend a religious school next door, that's just absurd...just because some religious sect finds women in spandex offensive I do not and if my daughters want to dress like that that's their business, we don't live in Iran if you don't like our morality then please fuck off...I find some religious sects treatment of their women bizarre and offensive but I don't demand they change their customs...

I know, I'm annoyingly obtuse at times :D

Actually, now that you're here, can you give em a quick rundown of how the Charter protects multiculturalism?

I know next to nothing of Canadian constitutional law.

So, last week I started a thread on a small town in Québec that recently put together a set of norms for immigrants. You can read that thread here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=516395&highlight=Quebec).

Now, we are into the second round: Canadian Muslim groups say they will file a complaint with the Quebec Human Rights Commission against the town of Herouxville over its widely reported "norms" for prospective immigrants. (http://www.guelphmercury.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=mercury/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1170676025771&call_pageid=1050067726078&col=1050421501457)

They argue that such a set of norms violates a section of the Canadian Chrter of Rights and Freedoms, specifically, the one that protects our multicultural heritage, values and identity.

Meanwhile, the other side is also in the news, as the Herouxville city councillor who came up with this idea has another idea:



It would appear that the immigrants' position is protected by one of the highest laws in the land, while the councillor is obviously in need of counselling for his paranoia.

Sang et langue, my ass. We are not pure laine or vieille souche, but we are still Quebec citizens, not to be dismissed as les autres.

I note that it is muslims who filed a complaint against the norms...

Anyone supporting this needs to remember that they themselves are immigrants to this land.

after one generation they are no longer immigrants, even the indigenous peoples were immigrants at one time.

Actually, now that you're here, can you give em a quick rundown of how the Charter protects multiculturalism?

I know next to nothing of Canadian constitutional law.

Section 27 of the Charter (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/index.html) says:

"This Charter shall be interpreted in a manner consistent with the preservation and enhancement of the multicultural heritage of Canadians."

Now, this does not mean that a person's culture trumps all Charter rights. Sexual equality (s. 28) is not subject to the notwithstanding clause, and is not abridged by other Charter rights. There are built in guarantees that ameliorate most prejudicial cultural practices WITHOUT having to resort to inane bylaws.

Charter rights also apply to ANYONE on Canadian soil, regardless of immigration status, or citizenship.

Also important is section 15:
(1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.


Affirmative action programs (2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

A lot of people like to claim that programs specifically focusing on immigrants, or women, or aboriginals is discriminatory under s.15, but s.15(2) rebuts this nicely.

I hope Herouxville gets sued to the extent the town goes bankrupt. This ought to lay to rest any lingering notion of Quebec as a French-Canadian socialist worker's paradise. I grew up in Quebec, and the latent racism I experienced there - for having the audacity to have been born into a non-francophone family was and is so thick it can be cut with a knife.

Fuck those bigoted pobuckers right up their asses.

I note that it is muslims who filed a complaint against the norms...

The bylaws are clearly meant to target Muslims, asserting a stereotypical view of Muslim culture that is absolutely offensive. "This is what Muslims do, and we won't have it" is the message. The counter message is, "Hey Dumbasses, we clearly don't all do this, and Canada's laws already cover this ground, so shove your bigotry and quite trying to make a moot point for the sake of xenophobia."

after one generation they are no longer immigrants, even the indigenous peoples were immigrants at one time.

Point being, no one was forced to assimilate to our culture when they arrived here. Saying now, 'THIS is the culture of the people living in Canada' is inane. And we seem to recognise that as a nation, because we do not insist that people coming here assimilate to any formal Canadian culture above and beyond our legal norms. The people who believe we should take it further should remind themselves that they are not speaking Cree, or Anishnabe, or Miqmaq...and that their culture is ALSO based on an immigrant culture.

The bylaws are clearly meant to target Muslims, asserting a stereotypical view of Muslim culture that is absolutely offensive. "This is what Muslims do, and we won't have it" is the message. The counter message is, "Hey Dumbasses, we clearly don't all do this, and Canada's laws already cover this ground, so shove your bigotry and quite trying to make a moot point for the sake of xenophobia."

If the ones in Canada dont do it, why do they care so much? Especially considering muslims DO the stuff, which is banned in the norms, elsewhere.

Point being, no one was forced to assimilate to our culture when they arrived here. Saying now, 'THIS is the culture of the people living in Canada' is inane. And we seem to recognise that as a nation, because we do not insist that people coming here assimilate to any formal Canadian culture above and beyond our legal norms. The people who believe we should take it further should remind themselves that they are not speaking Cree, or Anishnabe, or Miqmaq...and that their culture is ALSO based on an immigrant culture.

Again, if noone is forced to assimilate to our culture, you cant force towns not to get their own norms which are part of their culture.

If the ones in Canada dont do it, why do they care so much? Especially considering muslims DO the stuff which is banned in the norms elsewhere.

You need to consider the purpose of these bylaws. Clearly, they are not filling a gap in our laws, outlawing practices that are not outlawed elsewhere. They are instead, a political and cultural statement, and overtly offensive.

Imagine if the bylaws banned dreadlocks, made it a crime to go unbathed for more than a week, and admonished people for having promiscuous sex while smoking copious amounts of ganja. There are certian offensive cultural assumptions made in the very wording of these bylaws, stereotypes given some form of authority by being recognised as valid in law. You can't do it at the provincial level, and you can't do it at the federal level. The intent of thes laws are clearly to target a certain group, based on stereotypes, and that invalidates the laws.

The Muslims protesting this are not protesting being forbidden the joys of stoning women. They are protesting the purpose of these laws...which is to single out a cultural group for ridicule.

Again, if noone is forced to assimilate to our culture, you cant force towns not to get their own norms which are part of their culture.

Yes, actually you can. Read that again...no one is forced to assimilate to our culture. A town enforcing its culture norms does this, and violates the Charter.

It is like a religious enclave forbidding people of a different religion from entering. No one can force the people of that enclave to change their religion, but neither can they force others to join their religion.

Yes, actually you can. Read that again...no one is forced to assimilate to our culture. A town enforcing its culture norms does this, and violates the Charter.

It is like a religious enclave forbidding people of a different religion from entering. No one can force the people of that enclave to change their religion, but neither can they force others to join their religion.

And if the federal government forces the town to change its rules, it's forcing the town to assimilate.

And if the federal government forces the town to change its rules, it's forcing the town to assimilate.
Assimilate to the Charter, the highest law of the land? Yes, as they should. Assimilate to the immigrant culture? No. That's not at all the case.

Bah, no one wants to fight me on this? *sulks*

I hope Herouxville gets sued to the extent the town goes bankrupt. This ought to lay to rest any lingering notion of Quebec as a French-Canadian socialist worker's paradise. I grew up in Quebec, and the latent racism I experienced there - for having the audacity to have been born into a non-francophone family was and is so thick it can be cut with a knife.

Fuck those bigoted pobuckers right up their asses.

Please, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel. :sniper: :sniper:

Bah, no one wants to fight me on this? *sulks*

Uhm, I dunno... Immigrants shouldn't get to wear their funny hats. They should wear our funny hats.

Nevermind.

Uhm, I dunno... Immigrants shouldn't get to wear their funny hats. They should wear our funny hats.

Nevermind.

We should all be wearing beaver on our heads.

We should all be wearing beaver on our heads.

Any moment now, someone is going to come along with some quip about your beaver, and the word 'head'.

Yes, actually you can. Read that again...no one is forced to assimilate to our culture. A town enforcing its culture norms does this, and violates the Charter.

It is like a religious enclave forbidding people of a different religion from entering. No one can force the people of that enclave to change their religion, but neither can they force others to join their religion.

I may be naive but I don't think that town is trying to make anyone change their religion...it's more like, we prefer our culture of toleration and we expect you to be tolerant as well and accept a secular lifestyle...


another weird situation which is related to the Quebec towns views is a situation we have in my city...female immigrants from India said they were being treated unfairly because they wished to use the public swimming pools but because of their morality they must be able to go swimming fully clothed despite obvious hygiene issues ...so they were allowed to...WTF! for the rest of us it's required that we shower first before entering a pool, swimming fully clothed is out of the question...this is PC carried to an extreme, if they can't accept our local standards of morality and hygienics stay the F*** out of the pool...

Any moment now, someone is going to come along with some quip about your beaver, and the word 'head'.

an endless array of quips come to mind... I'll resist the obvious and tempting opportunity to comment....

I may be naive but I don't think that town is trying to make anyone change their religion...it's more like, we prefer our culture of toleration and we expect you to be tolerant as well and accept a secular lifestyle...

No. This isn't a community trying to deal with multi-cultural snags. It's one that's trying to stop the multi-culturalism in the first place.

another weird situation which is related to the Quebec towns views is a situation we have in my city...female immigrants from India said they were being treated unfairly because they wished to use the public swimming pools but because of their morality they must be able to go swimming fully clothed despite obvious hygiene issues ...so they were allowed to...WTF! for the rest of us it's required that we shower first before entering a pool, swimming fully clothed is out of the question...this is PC carried to an extreme, if they can't accept our local standards of morality and hygienics stay the F*** out of the pool...

Well, that's plain wrong, multi-culturalism or not. Maybe they could have fully clothed-hours, followed by a severe shocking of chlorene.

We should all be wearing beaver on our heads.

It's a fine Canadian tradition afterall.

Ok, so because the Canadians are saying "Our laws supercede your religion", the Muslims are getting their panties in a bunch and going "ZOMG U GUYS R TEH RACISTS!!!!"? I fucking hate political correctness...

Ok, so because the Canadians are saying "Our laws supercede your religion", the Muslims are getting their panties in a bunch and going "ZOMG U GUYS R TEH RACISTS!!!!"? I fucking hate political correctness...

That's not what's being said at all. It would be like a small community putting out pamphlets claiming, 'we're free of murderin' and thievin' coloured folks. So if you're coloured, dont' be thinkin' of murderin' or thievin'.

The only law about religion in this scenario is the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which states that this little community can't bar people's religious rights.

Please, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel. :sniper: :sniper:

I always do. And I don't need to use gun-smileys either, richard.

Are you saying we CAN throw sulfuric acid on woman? Good, I've been having an itchy bucket finger since they passed that.

No. This isn't a community trying to deal with multi-cultural snags. It's one that's trying to stop the multi-culturalism in the first place.


I don't take them as serious as you do...they may have overstated their case but I understand where they're coming from...

I don't take them as serious as you do...they may have overstated their case but I understand where they're coming from...

Do you? I don't. They're an international embarrassment and don't seem to have quite realized it yet.

I don't take them as serious as you do...they may have overstated their case but I understand where they're coming from...

Hey, if Canada was awash with a plague of acid-burned spouses and honour-killings, I could perhaps see some sort of national or provincial action on the issue. Has there even been a single case of it? It's kinda silly...

And the whole denial of facial coverings is not only illegal, and racist (perhaps bigoted is the better word?), it's just plain stupid. I mean, who cares? It's xenophobia, plain and simple.

i disagree...dressing different not a problem, we've had that for many decades, RC Nuns and Priests, Hutterites etc... but covering the face is an extreme that separates us...

i disagree...dressing different not a problem, we've had that for many decades, RC Nuns and Priests, Hutterites etc... but covering the face is an extreme that separates us...

Tough shit. Their face, not yours.

i disagree...dressing different not a problem, we've had that for many decades, RC Nuns and Priests, Hutterites etc... but covering the face is an extreme that separates us...

How is it extreme exactly?

i disagree...dressing different not a problem, we've had that for many decades, RC Nuns and Priests, Hutterites etc... but covering the face is an extreme that separates us...

Not in Herouxville; there aren't any muslims anywhere near enough to it for these provincials to feel a sense of seperation.

Not in Herouxville; there aren't any muslims anywhere near enough to it for these provincials to feel a sense of seperation.

these people overstated their case I think I posted that earlier...politically astute or subtle they're not they may even be outright racists but there is some logic in their thinking...

How is it extreme exactly?a large part of human communication is by facial expression...hiding one's face blocks communication, it isn't normal it affects how we relate to each other...

a large part of human communication is by facial expression...hiding one's face blocks communication, it isn't normal it affects how we relate to each other...

Really?

What facial expression do I have right now?

So, last week I started a thread on a small town in Québec that recently put together a set of norms for immigrants. You can read that thread here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=516395&highlight=Quebec).

Now, we are into the second round: Canadian Muslim groups say they will file a complaint with the Quebec Human Rights Commission against the town of Herouxville over its widely reported "norms" for prospective immigrants. (http://www.guelphmercury.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=mercury/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1170676025771&call_pageid=1050067726078&col=1050421501457)

They argue that such a set of norms violates a section of the Canadian Chrter of Rights and Freedoms, specifically, the one that protects our multicultural heritage, values and identity.

Meanwhile, the other side is also in the news, as the Herouxville city councillor who came up with this idea has another idea:



It would appear that the immigrants' position is protected by one of the highest laws in the land, while the councillor is obviously in need of counselling for his paranoia.

Sang et langue, my ass. We are not pure laine or vieille souche, but we are still Quebec citizens, not to be dismissed as les autres.

So muslims want the right to abuse women like they do in the middle east in a land where women are respected? Why give them rights? The Muslims will most likely start Jihad in Canada if the Canadians give in to them.

So muslims want the right to abuse women like they do in the middle east in a land where women are respected? Why give them rights? The Muslims will most likely start Jihad in Canada if the Canadians give in to them.

Wait a minute... when did we start respecting women!!?? Damn that Trudeau!! (You don't need the eye-rolling icon do you?)

So muslims want the right to abuse women like they do in the middle east in a land where women are respected? Why give them rights? The Muslims will most likely start Jihad in Canada if the Canadians give in to them.

You fail. Miserably. Try reading up on what you're quacking about first.

Everyone who was too lazy to read up on what was clearly presented and sprang to the patently false conclusion that the Muslims are all ebil women murdering monsters...

Yeah, I think the ridiculousness and closested bigotry stands for itself.

We should all be wearing beaver on our heads.yeah .. I was going to propose something like that.. :D

Any moment now, someone is going to come along with some quip about your beaver, and the word 'head'.

I think you pre-empted that someone.

I may be naive but I don't think that town is trying to make anyone change their religion...it's more like, we prefer our culture of toleration and we expect you to be tolerant as well and accept a secular lifestyle... I was giving an example, not accusing them of asking people to convert.

i disagree...dressing different not a problem, we've had that for many decades, RC Nuns and Priests, Hutterites etc... but covering the face is an extreme that separates us...

Only because you believe it does.

Remember the big kerfuffle about male Sikh officers being told to remove their turbans? People argued long and hard about 'the uniform' and 'tradition' and ignored completely the important issue: how does wearing a turban prevent an officer from doing his job? Answer? It does not, not in any way, unless the person facing said officer is such a racist that seeing a turban automatically causes them to behave disrespectfully, where they would behave with respect towards a white officer with a buzzcut and hat.

It looked weird, and people didn't like it.

Funny thing is, after a while, it stopped looking so weird.

a large part of human communication is by facial expression...hiding one's face blocks communication, it isn't normal it affects how we relate to each other...

Those are your standards of communication, and by no means are those standards uniform throughout Canada. My people constantly make fun of me because I let everything show on my face. We don't even make eye contact with our elders, and we are seen by many as having very unexpressive faces. Our communication is based on intonation when speaking...not on the expression on our faces.

If you really think you can't communicate with someone in a veil, you need to think about why. You also need to balance the needs of the people involved. Is your need to see that woman's face so important, that it is worth causing her the horrible shame of having to remove that veil in order to speak to you? Is that going to help, or hinder communication? The answer is obvious. This is not about communication...this is about your sense of discomfort, and wishing to impose your cultural norms on 'outsiders'. Which might be fine, were Canada a homogenous country with a standard culture. It isn't.

So muslims want the right to abuse women like they do in the middle east in a land where women are respected? Why give them rights? The Muslims will most likely start Jihad in Canada if the Canadians give in to them.

Ah, the 'all or nothing' argument. If you support the right of people to practice their culture, you must therefore support every aspect of their culture. No. Canada is a multicultural nation, and that entails a balancing act of the highest degree. Underneath this, is a culturally based set of norms that are intended to apply to all people, regardless of their ethnicity. These norms are set out in our Charter. So it may be part of someone's culture to discriminate against women...but our Charter ensures that this cultural practice will never become entrenched in our government or official society...and those women are afforded the same rights and responsibilities as men, despite the position they may have in their homes.

As much as possible, we want to give people the freedom to maintain their traditions and beliefs when they come to Canada. When those traditions and beliefs come into conflict with our laws, our laws will prevail...but remember once again that the highest law of the land is the Charter, a statement of protection for human rights...not a statement of xenophobia or cultural isolationism.

these people overstated their case I think I posted that earlier...politically astute or subtle they're not they may even be outright racists but there is some logic in their thinking...

a large part of human communication is by facial expression...hiding one's face blocks communication, it isn't normal it affects how we relate to each other...

That may well be true, but extreme? Naaa mate don't take too much notice of whatever the media choose to tell you, they're all lying shits too.

Jeez, used to be it was the asians rural areas were all up in arms about.

a large part of human communication is by facial expression...hiding one's face blocks communication, it isn't normal it affects how we relate to each other...Really?

What facial expression do I have right now?ohh!!

Burn baby..Burn :D

http://kornfake.spbk.no/albums/pwned/post_3_1078497411.gif

I could be wrong about this, but the Herouxville Standards don't appear to be binding laws- they're just "a guide to the city". I don't believe you can be arrested for "breaking the code". If I am in error I'd like a link specifically saying so.

Having said that, I don't think Herouxville should have spelled this out the way that they did- it's clearly an antagonistic gesture and I'm appalled to see it. I'm not surprised though- small-town Canada (no matter where you go) is as xenophobic and racist as you can get. I know because Alliston is, sadly, like this as well.

Another part of me wonders if this is all just a publicity stunt. Not to make light of the issue, but the town couldn't possibly expect to pass this law without upheaval. I mean, before this code came out, how many of you heard of Herouxville? I didn't. Yes it's not all positive publicity but still- you can't buy this kind of press.

another weird situation which is related to the Quebec towns views is a situation we have in my city...female immigrants from India said they were being treated unfairly because they wished to use the public swimming pools but because of their morality they must be able to go swimming fully clothed despite obvious hygiene issues ...so they were allowed to...WTF! for the rest of us it's required that we shower first before entering a pool, swimming fully clothed is out of the question...this is PC carried to an extreme, if they can't accept our local standards of morality and hygienics stay the F*** out of the pool...

I could be wrong, but aren't there swimsuits that can cover the entire body? Which town is this by the way? I can't find any information online.