NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, I know of this teacher who have sex with his 16 years old student, who then proceeded to divorced his wife and marry the young girl instead:rolleyes:

Lucky bastard

Generally speaking, there'll always be teachers who have relationships with their students. To call that unacceptable is simply closing your eyes to reality.

But I can't imagine that many of those relationships are very healthy, simply due to the imbalance of power and influence.
Oh, and that teacher divorcing his wife and marrying a young girl : It's called mid-life crisis and tends to be rather common among the male population.
Other expressions of that condition are ridiculous sports cars, excessive wearing of shades and colourful shirts, and the overuse of aftershave to a sickening extend.

No; I can't see an abuse of power and authority not taking place.

Short answer, no.

Long answer, absolutely not. Teachers are in a position of power, privilege and trust. Taking advantage of that position is fraught with danger.

No; I can't see an abuse of power and authority not taking place.

Short answer, no.

Long answer, absolutely not. Teachers are in a position of power, privilege and trust. Taking advantage of that position is fraught with danger.

Yep.

I wouldn't have a relationship with a student, if only because it would put me in an uncomfortable situation when I would then have to assess that student's work, and possibly give her bad marks.

During my first year teaching at uni I came to be on friendly terms with a female student (she was less than four years younger than me). That in itself was rather strange, but it was just "on friendly terms", and she was one of my very best students anyway (so "bad marks" wasn't an issue). (We're still friends now.)

No. It shouldn't happen because of the inequal power relations.

But it still happens, and surprisingly rarely cause problems for anyone involved. I see two approaches. Being hypocritical by banning it, but ignoring when it happens, unless there's a problem. Or accepting it's fraught with danger, discourage it, and make whatever legal framework is needed for when it does go wrong.

Absolutely not. Not only for the unequal power problem, but a teacher is supposed to act as an adult in the classroom. We're supposed to BE the adult in the classroom acting in place of the students' parents. How can a teacher act in that role when they are busy with a romantic relationship with a student?

Yeah, it happens, but that doesn't mean I'm going to accept it.

As long as the student's 16 or over, and it doesn't affect his or her actual teaching, in my opinion there's nothing wrong with it. But that's a tough line to walk, so it can only really work in theory. So IN THEORY, I don't care. In practice... yes. I think my point's been made, in a rambling, circumventary sense. Forgive the circumlocution, I'm recovering from a fairly heavy night.

Well, I know of this teacher who have sex with his 16 years old student, who then proceeded to divorced his wife and marry the young girl instead:rolleyes:

Wrong. Even if the student is of age. It's a bad idea to mix roles.

Short answer, no.

Long answer, absolutely not. Teachers are in a position of power, privilege and trust. Taking advantage of that position is fraught with danger.
Which is why it's illegal in Germany, for instance.

As long as no abuse of authority or favoritism is taking place, I don't see an issue with a teacher/student relationship.

I dont know about the "power or authority"...but the issue of trust is one that is the key element in my eyes.

Teachers stand as "in loco parentis"..and to me it is inherent in a teachers duty to stay away from personal involvement. I see it as a betrayal of that trust...both of the parents and of the student as well.

One he/she is no longer their teacher maybe..same as a doctor not having a relationship with a patient...some lines you just don't cross.

It depends what kind of relationship. Anything sexual is completely unappropriate at any level.

Friendship are generally unappropriate, especially below highschool level. At highschool level, I think that can exist with some boundaries. At the college level, having some kind of plutonic relationship with a professor can mean the difference between an B and a B+. That kind of friendship can often times open some career doors a little earlier, whether it be industry contacts, teaching assisstant positions, etc.

Well, I know of this teacher who have sex with his 16 years old student, who then proceeded to divorced his wife and marry the young girl instead:rolleyes:

Midlife crisis and raging hormones. Yeah. Thats a good healthy set-up for a lasting relationship.:rolleyes:

No, absolutely not! No buts, ifs, or whens: No, never.

Besides, that kind of behavior grants you 5 years in jail without parole, because it is not considered "seduction of minors", but "abuse of wards".

The only thing acceptable would be to start dating once she's graduated from school, because then the teacher/student relation has ceased to exist.

The teacher involved did lose his job, right? Around here, any teacher who did something like that would be dismissed immediately and would never be permitted to work in a classroom again.

Even at a university level, where the students are legally adults, this is considered unacceptable. I had a friend in graduate school who taught a couple of classes, and he regularly got asked out by his female students. He always gave them the same answer: "Ask me again after I've turned in your final grade, because as long as you're in my class it's against university regulations, and I'm not jeapordizing my PhD for you."

Well, I know of this teacher who have sex with his 16 years old student, who then proceeded to divorced his wife and marry the young girl instead:rolleyes:

It is wrong for a forumer to post a thread-starter as their first post.

Why it's possible I don't understand.

I'm sure it will be a good thread, the question is simple, while being about sex, power and school, all popular topics. I don't object to the thread topic or the OP, I just think we have the right to know something about the person who starts it. Like ... even one previous post to read ??

No, it is not appropriate for a teacher to have a relationship with his (or her) student. It is particularly not appropriate for a teacher to have a relationship with his (or her) minor student.

But, more importantly, it is completely and absolutely pathetic for a middle-aged teacher to have a relationship with a 16 year old, student or not. A middle-aged person who is of a maturity level that leads them to seek "romantic" companionship among teenagers? That sort of person should not be in a relationship with ANYBODY, ever, least of all a young person who might otherwise have a fighting chance at a nice life.

I can't see what the problem is with the relationship between a student and a teacher. First it is consentual, and second it is not exactly a violation in any sense of the word. Although in this particular case, I am strongly against adult men having relationships with 16 years old girls. In other words, for me the problem is not the teacher-student relation, but the fact she's a minor.

I have been at the two sides of the equation regarding that particular issue. I had as a student a relationship with a teacher, and as a teacher a relationship with a student, at a college/university level when everyone involved was an adult, at least legally speaking. It usually means just an exchange of vitality for experience and viceversa, I can't see what's wrong with that, as long as the two parts involved are aware and willing.

As for the authority part, well, let us forbid police men have relationships, or inside the military.

As for the authority part, well, let us forbid police men have relationships, or inside the military.
It is standard practice to prevent officers from having relationships with those who report to them. If such relationships occur between consenting adults, usually at least one of them will be transfered so that you don't have one lover reporting to the other.

No, it is not appropriate for a teacher to have a relationship with his (or her) student. It is particularly not appropriate for a teacher to have a relationship with his (or her) minor student.

But, more importantly, it is completely and absolutely pathetic for a middle-aged teacher to have a relationship with a 16 year old, student or not. A middle-aged person who is of a maturity level that leads them to seek "romantic" companionship among teenagers? That sort of person should not be in a relationship with ANYBODY, ever, least of all a young person who might otherwise have a fighting chance at a nice life.

"That sort of person," Bottle?
Are relationships then a reward for good character? A privelege to be earned?

Somehow, I'd imagined that your would see a relationship of some sort as a human right. Or at least, a relationship as a character-building thing, which if it was not abusive would have the potential to improve anyone, even if they didn't deserve it.

Yet, it seems there are some people who "should not be in a relationship with ANYBODY."

All I can say is:

"Niccce"

I can't see what the problem is with the relationship between a student and a teacher. First it is consentual, and second it is not exactly a violation in any sense of the word.
The power imbalance is the problem.

If you happen to be a teacher, and you have a relationship with somebody who happens to be a student, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. However, if you are a teacher who decides to have a relationship with one of YOUR students, then you are allowing your personal desires to compromise your ability to do your job well. You cannot and will not remain objective if you are fucking around with one of your own students. You are behaving in a profoundly unprofessional manner.

Having a relationship with somebody who you are in a position of direct authority over is a lousy idea. There WILL be conflicts of interest.

Working in academia, I've been in situations where a teacher is actually younger than some of the students! The age imbalance isn't always the problem.

No, no teacher should be in a relationship with any current or possible future student.

Former student? Sure, why the hell not. Student at the same institution where there is absolutely no chance of that student having the teacher in class? I wouldn't push my luck if I were that teacher.

"That sort of person," Bottle?
Are relationships then a reward for good character? A privelege to be earned?

In my opinion, people who are lousy human beings should (ideally) not be in relationships. This is because lousy human beings are lousy partners, and I wouldn't want them to be inflicted upon anybody.

And yes, relationships are a 'privelege,' not a right. This is because you do not have any right whatsoever to anybody else's body or love or whatever. You are not entitled to have a relationship.


Somehow, I'd imagined that your would see a relationship of some sort as a human right.

Absolutely positively 100% NO. Millions and millions of gallons of NO.

NOBODY has any "right" to be in a relationship with another person.


Or at least, a relationship as a character-building thing, which if it was not abusive would have the potential to improve anyone, even if they didn't deserve it.

Relationships can help people grow, yes. However, some types of growth need to happen BEFORE a person enters into a relationship. This is because having a relationship involves another human being, and it is wrong to expect somebody else to endure being hurt by you simply because you didn't bother to grow up before you started trying to fuck around.


Yet, it seems there are some people who "should not be in a relationship with ANYBODY."
Yes, there are. What is so odd about that?

You wouldn't be surprised if I said that rapists should not be in relationships. Or if I suggested that perhaps serial killers shouldn't be in relationships. This is because being in a relationship involves the presence of another PERSON, and I think we can all agree that it would be shitty to be the person dating a rapist or a serial killer.

I happen to personally believe that the world would be a better place if pathetic, un-matured middle-aged individuals refrained from inflicting themselves upon others in romantic relationships. This is because I spare a thought or two for the people who would be forced to endure them. Sure, perhaps the pathetic, un-matured middle-ager would "grow" as a person during such relationships, but why should I want to sacrifice the happiness of other people in order to help pathetic, un-matured middle-aged people attain the fundamental level of grown-upness that everybody else reaches by themselves? I don't think lazy, selfish people should be indulged at the expense of teenage students.

The power imbalance is the problem.

If you happen to be a teacher, and you have a relationship with somebody who happens to be a student, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. However, if you are a teacher who decides to have a relationship with one of YOUR students, then you are allowing your personal desires to compromise your ability to do your job well. You cannot and will not remain objective if you are fucking around with one of your own students. You are behaving in a profoundly unprofessional manner.

Having a relationship with somebody who you are in a position of direct authority over is a lousy idea. There WILL be conflicts of interest.

Working in academia, I've been in situations where a teacher is actually younger than some of the students! The age imbalance isn't always the problem.

I had both a relationship with one of my teachers and one of my students. Nothing went wrong, they were nice and ended nicely. People remained professional or at least tried to, trying to see things under an objective view and maintaining the sense of ethics. It wasn't unprofessional. And there weren't conflicts of interest. If you can draw a line between your personal desires and your working guidelines there shouldn't be a problem. If you can't, you shouldn't be teaching anyone in the first place.

Working in academia, I was younger than many of my students. Here it happens a lot. What I said it that age is an issue if we're talking about teenagers and minors.

If he/she is older than 16, its ok.

I mean, its amazing that you may be as old as 50 and still be able to have sex with 16 year olds.

Btw, after 18, anything goes, student, teacher or anything else.

"That sort of person," Bottle?
Are relationships then a reward for good character? A privelege to be earned?

What else would they be?

I had both a relationship with one of my teachers and one of my students. Nothing went wrong, they were nice and ended nicely. People remained professional or at least tried to, trying to see things under an objective view and maintaining the sense of ethics. It wasn't unprofessional.

In my opinion, yes it was. It was extremely unprofessional. By definition, any teacher who engages in a relationship with one of their own students is failing at their job (in my opinion).


And there weren't conflicts of interest.

If you are somebody's prof or school teacher and you are in a relationship with them, then there is a conflict of interest by definition.


If you can draw a line between your personal desires and your working guidelines there shouldn't be a problem.

You can't. Even if you could, there would still be a conflict of interest.


If you can't, you shouldn't be teaching anyone in the first place.

If you think you can in a situation where you're fucking one of your students, you're lying to yourself, and shouldn't be teaching anybody in the first place. :D


Working in academia, I was younger than many of my students. Here it happens a lot. What I said it that age is an issue if we're talking about teenagers and minors.
I think on this point we agree. Relationships between middle-aged adults and minors and relationships between a teacher and their students are two different topics, really.

I happen to believe both are inappropriate. The middle-aged-and-minor one because of a) possible problems with consent and b) it's just pathetic. The teacher-and-student one because a) yes, there ALWAYS are conflicts of interest, by definition, and b) yes, it is always unprofessional, no matter how controlled and professional you think you are.

Now, that's just what I think. It's why I don't try to get with anyone that I'm teaching, and it's why I don't have any respect for a teacher who gets with their students. But unless you're trying to fuck me, you really don't have to worry about my opinion much, do you? :D

You can't.

Oh? Now you know the exact tendencies of the entire human race? My, my...you sure are a smart one.

Don't assume that because you may be unable to do something, or you can't imagine it being done, that it in fact cannot happen.

Oh? Now you know the exact tendencies of the entire human race? My, my...you sure are a smart one.

I also know that you can't fly by simply flapping your naked arms. I can generalize that to the entire human race. I'm a genius like that.


Don't assume that because you may be unable to do something, or you can't imagine it being done, that it in fact cannot happen.
I'm not assuming that other people can't do it because I can't do it. I'm assuming they can't do it because it is not possible to do. If you are in a relationship with somebody, you cannot avoid a conflict of interest if you are also their teacher. Sorry, that's just the nature of the universe (and the definition of the terms).

Now, you may be able to HANDLE the conflict of interest in different ways. Maybe you can be a jerk about it, or you can manage to not be a jerk about it. Maybe you can be civilized and polite versus obvious and crude. Maybe you can manage to hide it well enough that nobody else bitches about it publicly. But it's still there. You are still experiencing it. And if you think you're not, you're lying to yourself.

In my opinion, yes it was. It was extremely unprofessional. By definition, any teacher who engages in a relationship with one of their own students is failing at their job (in my opinion).

Had a risk of being unprofessional. It didn't fail, maybe thanks to the fact that the student involved was a good student to begin with, reducing the impact on the evaluation, grades or aprecciation.

I hardly think of that particular case as a failure, given the fact of the success and happiness, past and present, of the people involved. If you fail to teach and guide, you are a failure. If you success in those, you didn't fail at your job. For me it's that simple.

You can't.

I also thought I couldn't. In the end, I proved I can. Until further notice, I will maintain my current line of thinking.

If you think you can, you're lying to yourself, and shouldn't be teaching anybody in the first place. :D

Proved to myself that I can. As long as that goes, I take my field experience regarding the situation as more important than just assumptions of other people. I agree with your point in that it can go wrong, but I refute the absolute denial by giving proof that sometimes it doesn't. If we start banning things regarding the chance of going wrong, we should ban all relationships from the start.

I'll be convinced of that until proved otherwise. Oh, I have been engaged in relationships with superiors and underlings at work, and I have been able to separate and discern things there.

I happen to believe both are inappropriate. The middle-aged-and-minor one because of a) possible problems with consent and b) it's just pathetic. The teacher-and-student one because a) yes, there ALWAYS are conflicts of interest, by definition, and b) yes, it is always unprofessional, no matter how controlled and professional you think you are.

Now, that's just what I think. It's why I don't try to get with anyone that I'm teaching, and it's why I don't have any respect for a teacher who gets with their students. But unless you're trying to fuck me, you really don't have to worry about my opinion much, do you? :D

No, not worried by your opinion, you have every right in this planet to have that one, and your country and culture are more or less different than my own. And not interested in your respect. Back in my students days, I was interested in getting the respect of my teachers. When I was teaching, I was interested in getting the respect of my students. In these forums, with all due respect (and that's a funny line in this "speech"), I'm not trying to gather respect from anyone, including you, but not in a personal way. (And that's the reason why I read more than I write, yet for an unknown reason I decided to give my two cents on this one)

I have no idea if I would try to fuck you, or to get fucked by you, you're miles away. As things stand right now, I have absolutely no interest in getting humped by my screen. :D

Yes, as long as the student is intelligent enough to consent.

I still say there should be aptitude tests to determine whether or not someone is intelligent enough to consent, but that's an entirely different story.

EDIT: Oh, also as long as it doesn't affect the classroom in anyway, either.

I'm not assuming that other people can't do it because I can't do it. I'm assuming they can't do it because it is not possible to do. If you are in a relationship with somebody, you cannot avoid a conflict of interest if you are also their teacher. Sorry, that's just the nature of the universe (and the definition of the terms).

Now, you may be able to HANDLE the conflict of interest in different ways. Maybe you can be a jerk about it, or you can manage to not be a jerk about it. Maybe you can be civilized and polite versus obvious and crude. Maybe you can manage to hide it well enough that nobody else bitches about it publicly. But it's still there. You are still experiencing it. And if you think you're not, you're lying to yourself.

You're doing it. You are assuming noone can do it because you aren't able to do it, nor know anyone who can. As far as I know, I happen to be able to do it and know people who can. How? Thinking things beforehand. Establishing terms, limits, as in any other relationship.

There is no way you can prove it can't be done, although you can easily prove humans can't fly by flapping their arms around. That's the difference.

it is always unprofessional and unethical for a teacher to have a sexual/romantic relationship with a student.

ALWAYS.

age doesnt matter although if a teacher has a sexual relationship with a minor s/he should face jail time even if the minor is above the age of consent.

if you are both adults, you wait until the studen is no longer your student THEN start to date.

that no one got hurt, that you didnt hand out unfair grades, that you didnt ruin her academic career after she dumped you for someone else, even if your MARRIED her, doesnt negate that you behaved unprofessionally in persuing it at all.

it is always unprofessional and unethical for a teacher to have a sexual/romantic relationship with a student.

ALWAYS.

age doesnt matter although if a teacher has a sexual relationship with a minor s/he should face jail time even if the minor is above the age of consent.

if you are both adults, you wait until the studen is no longer your student THEN start to date.

that no one got hurt, that you didnt hand out unfair grades, that you didnt ruin her academic career after she dumped you for someone else, even if your MARRIED her, doesnt negate that you behaved unprofessionally in persuing it at all.

No experiences where someone got hurt, as far as I know, or handed unfair grades, and specially not ruining academic careers, that have been pretty successful since that. Never married or followed said relationships, they ended for unrelated reasons to the "unethical conflict of interest" there.

No experiences where someone got hurt, as far as I know, or handed unfair grades, and specially not ruining academic careers, that have been pretty successful since that. Never married or followed said relationships, they ended for unrelated reasons to the "unethical conflict of interest" there.

thats my point.

it IS unethical and unprofessional to have a relationship with one of your students no matter how it goes.

just as its unethical for a doctor to treat a family member. that can go just fine too. its still unprofessional and unethical.

...

I'm greatly impressed by this post, but the only thing I actually learned from it is that a "relationship" is a far more complex meme than the vague definition I use.

My definition of "relationship" is "communication and negotiation with another human being, or with something else meaningful and reactive." Or: "interaction."
I know it's not the usual meaning, but I think that way because I have emotional interactions, power interactions and learning experiences of many sorts with people, despite not having had sex with anyone in many years. I'm offended by all the supposed benefits of interaction which seem to be packaged with a sexual relationship by hiding them behind the euphemism "relationship."

Could I just replace every incidence of 'relationship' in your posts with 'sexual intercourse'? Or do you have a better definition?

I think it's important because there seems to be a wide difference in meaning between "rapists do not deserve to have sex with anyone" (fine) and "rapists deserve lifelone solitary confinement or death" (which I don't agree with.)

thats my point.

it IS unethical and unprofessional to have a relationship with one of your students no matter how it goes.

just as its unethical for a doctor to treat a family member. that can go just fine too. its still unprofessional and unethical.

Is that unprofessional and unethical where you live?

My brother is a doctor and he takes care of every family member that gets ill. Also of friends. Of course he's quite worried, but everyone prefers to be treated by someone you fully trust, and you entirely like. Around here, it is not unethical in any sense, everyone who has a medic as a relative goes to him for help.

If we start thinking that something is unethical because it can go wrong, then we should start having stable relationships, having sex, having children and so forth. I really cannot grasp what is your specific reason beyond "It is unethical, it is unethical, it is unethical, it is unethical".

I have to add that I understood Bottle's reasons. I just tend to think that you haven't provided me with another argument than "it is just wrong".

thats my point.

it IS unethical and unprofessional to have a relationship with one of your students no matter how it goes.

just as its unethical for a doctor to treat a family member. that can go just fine too. its still unprofessional and unethical.

The first is a restatement of what almost every poster has put into the thread, though I acknowledge the "no matter how it goes" extension of the principle.
Like, it's wrong because it could have gone wrong, and if it had it would be very very wrong. So doing it, not knowing how it may go, is unethical. Fine.

Then there's the medical example.
Why (without resorting to the law) is it unethical for a doctor to treat their own family? Is their professional judgement impaired by treating a family member (unprofessional conduct to the family member), or do they somehow provide better care when it's a family member (unprofessional conduct to their other patients)?
I know it's the law. Someone tell me why.

I'd be interested to see the responses if the question were changed to read: "Is it acceptable for a teacher to have relationship with her student?"

Generally speaking, there'll always be teachers who have relationships with their students. To call that unacceptable is simply closing your eyes to reality.

But I can't imagine that many of those relationships are very healthy, simply due to the imbalance of power and influence.
Oh, and that teacher divorcing his wife and marrying a young girl : It's called mid-life crisis and tends to be rather common among the male population.
Other expressions of that condition are ridiculous sports cars, excessive wearing of shades and colourful shirts, and the overuse of aftershave to a sickening extend.
Actually, it's judgmental and it's wrong. Superior/subordinate relationships are always wrong because of the very imbalances you mention.

Generally speaking, there'll always be teachers who have relationships with their students. To call that unacceptable is simply closing your eyes to reality.

But I can't imagine that many of those relationships are very healthy, simply due to the imbalance of power and influence.
Oh, and that teacher divorcing his wife and marrying a young girl : It's called mid-life crisis and tends to be rather common among the male population.
Other expressions of that condition are ridiculous sports cars, excessive wearing of shades and colourful shirts, and the overuse of aftershave to a sickening extend.

And earrings, Cabra, you forgot earrings. I read an article once upon a time that said the fastest way for a middle-aged man to realize the folly of dating a woman half is age is for her to say, "Honey, I enrolled in a CPR course."

I'd be interested to see the responses if the question were changed to read: "Is it acceptable for a teacher to have relationship with her student?"

That's generally considered wrong, too. There's just such a case in the news here in CO, and there have been enough lately that the late-night comics have made it a staple of their monologues (usually right after making fun of the Democratic candidates for the presidency).

I sincerely hate to lose Bottle's respect -- that's assuming I ever had it to begin with -- but I feel I should give this thread a quick precis of my story.

My first temptation into a romantic entanglement with a student was when I student-taught in 1994. She was 18 and already dating a 24-year-old on her own, and I was 26 and single. A month into my four-month stint, she broke up with her man. I was already enthralled by her, and she seemed like everything I'd missed while actively looking for relationships in college (my father and brother had the looks and confidence for purely sexual conquests -- I love sex, but I'm not a sport-hunter, and couldn't be even if I wanted to be). I got lucky in that case. There was no sex involved, and after I was finished student teaching and headed back to college to finish off my degree, she broke it off with me. I was hurt, as might be expected, but not badly.

I was lucky then. That improper, unprofessional, and unethical relationship was an unfortunate precedent. I thought it was okay to do what I'd done, despite the fact that I knew it was improper, and had signed an agreement to that effect before going into that school.

I was tempted three more times when I was a professional educator at the high school level. First was a student who convinced me that I could fill in as a dance partner for her civic recreation center dance class. I rationalized up an down that it'd be in full view of the public, and I was helping out a student who needed some kind of help/male role model. When you're unfamiliar with the difference between real love and infatuation/sexual attraction, you can rationalize a LOT. No relationship there, but she certainly made it clear that sex was there if I wanted it. I didn't, thankfully, but when she was absent from class for a week and I called her home to see if she was okay, her mother managed to get it out of me that I was the person who'd subbed in for her dance partner -- she went (justifiably) ballistic. Thing is, she was more worried that her daughter was trying to sink me than about anything I'd do to her. Regardless, a letter went into my building file when the mother contacted my then vice-principal.

Second, a student who'd graduated had successfully auditioned for an elite performance group. She asked if I'd have lunch with her and give her an idea of what to expect, as I had been in a similar group in college. At the end of lunch, we walked to her cars, and after the conversation, my brain turned to clam sauce and we kissed. We had a low-level relationship that lasted a few weeks with no intercourse, but some limited sexual contact. Thing was, she hadn't yet turned 18. And despite graduating, she was still considered a charge of the state. Nothing happened...yet.

Finally, a student had arranged for me to chaperone her and five others to see a jazz legend at a venue in the city. As a music teacher, I always stress the importance of seeing performers live. As the week before the concert went by, people were dropping out one by one until only she was left to go. Her parents had given her permission to go with me, so I thought I was okay. We even ran into people I knew at the club where the gig was, and I didn't feel I had anything to hide. I was wrong. No relationship happened at that time, but....

One month before the end of my third teaching year, a former student who had huge crushes on both the second and third incidences I mentioned (and who I never had in a class, and who was known to be an illegal drug user)wrote a letter to a colleague of mine on the school faculty. In it, there were wild and wildly inaccurate accusations about me that were fueled by rumor and rejection, but enough there for the principal (my colleague didn't show me the letter, she took it straight to admin -- the right thing to do, colleague or not) to suspend me with pay until an investigation could be started.

The three above incidents were used against me during the investigation. They called in the students, their parents, friends, other teachers -- it was a nightmare. The crux of the matter was my own deposition about having kissed student #2. I had decided that I couldn't lie, even to save my own ass. Ironically, student #2 had indeed lied to either avoid embarrassment or to try to save my ass. I wasn't allowed to speak to anyone, so I couldn't have known what she was going to say. Upon hearing that I'd confessed to the kiss, she recanted and I was not fired, but not renewed for the next year.

Heaping worse unto bad, my union representative advised me to appeal the non-renewal, which got the State Board of Education involved. Very long story short, my teaching certificate, which had expired in the investigation, was not allowed to be renewed unless I was seen by a psychiatrist and took several courses designed to educate me about teacher-student boundaries. I decided to get my master's degree first.

I did, and then sought to renew my certificate. It turns out that the investigation wasn't over, but was suspended when my certificate expired -- which meant that it had to be RE-OPENED when I re-applied. That meant interviewing everyone all over again. Nightmare, part II. I was offered the same deal, and I took the courses and saw the shrink. The psychiatric review recommended a two-YEAR course of counseling before I would be allowed to teach public school again. I declined and found my current position at a college.

Folks, at one point, it may have been a "blind-eye" kind of thing for students and teachers to fraternize. No longer. Aside from the media eating this shit up -- especially if the teacher is female and hot -- lawyers, insurance companies (liability, you know), and other factors have made perception more than 90% of reality. You can't even be perceived as being overly friendly, and even the most fanciful jest in the direction of that kind of relationship will get investigated as the districts look to cover their asses and hang yours out to dry.

I did not see my actions as criminal, but that's how I was being treated. With the passage of time and distance from the whole mess, I realized that what I'd done, while very tame on the whole continuum of unethical behavior and of no harm to anyone involved with regard to the relationships themselves, was wrong.

It isn't just the power imbalance, it's the experience imbalance. I don't care how "old" a student seems, they simply aren't. Yes, people over a decade apart have fine relationships, but once a teacher-student angle is in effect, it's out of bounds. Explaining things you take for granted to a youthful mind can be fun at first, but it gets old.

I know this because the student from my third incident and I had a three-year relationship after she graduated (she went to undergraduate study at the same college I did grad school). We'd kept in contact by email while I was suspended, not because I'd wanted any relationship with her, but because she wanted me to know what was being said about me in my absence (students are the most vicious rumor spreaders ever, and some of the ones about why I was gone were heinous). Had the investigation not happened, we'd have never connected. She's now married to someone else my age, with a lovely child and a nice suburban house.

That relationship taught me that while being with someone a decade younger than yourself when you're 30 or so may be exciting at first, it wears on both people. I got tired of explaining things that I took for granted, and she got tired of me making reference to things she hadn't experienced. Also, I had begun to grow emotionally -- we were very similar from an emotional intelligence standpoint then -- and she wasn't. I began to see her as girlish and petty, and she to see me as too fatherlike and bossy.

There are always exceptions -- but not a single one of them is worth losing your job and your professional credential. The whole episode is my life's regret, and I wan't even in it for some crass sexual desire fulfillment. I wanted to love and be loved. I learned an insane amount about life in that time.

So the answer to the original post is NO. Not ever.

Actually, it's judgmental and it's wrong. Superior/subordinate relationships are always wrong because of the very imbalances you mention.

And I'll repeat what I said to Bottle (yeah, it took me ages and she's gone, but) ... what is it about a sexual relationship that suddenly makes it not alright?

You don't have to widen the definition of "relationship" very far from "mutual agreement to have sex" to run into trouble with your statement.

"Superior/subordinate relationships are always wrong."

For my example, I choose parenthood. It has love, it has dependency, it has communication and shared values, it has everything but sex which might fall inside a wide definition of "relationship." But because it doesn't involve sex, it's 100 % OK, despite being an interaction of vastly differing power affecting every aspect of the inferior partner's life.

What the fuck is so special about sex, that it gets all these other important relations with another person and conglomerates them into a "relationship"? What the fuck is so special about sex that it needs it's own special rule to keep it from corrupting all the other interactions between people?

EDIT: DAMN, this was a good post I think, but I am now resigned to being upstaged by Intangelon. Can't beat a good story!!

The first is a restatement of what almost every poster has put into the thread, though I acknowledge the "no matter how it goes" extension of the principle.
Like, it's wrong because it could have gone wrong, and if it had it would be very very wrong. So doing it, not knowing how it may go, is unethical. Fine.

Then there's the medical example.
Why (without resorting to the law) is it unethical for a doctor to treat their own family? Is their professional judgement impaired by treating a family member (unprofessional conduct to the family member), or do they somehow provide better care when it's a family member (unprofessional conduct to their other patients)?
I know it's the law. Someone tell me why.

because you cant be professional and detached when its your family. famliy dynamics always come into play sometimes disastrously so.

suppose your mother has a cold and comes to you for treatment. you tell her to rest up, take vitamin C and call you if something worse develops.

she says she wants an antibiotic.

you explain that its not appropriate to give antibiotics for a cold.

she says that if you love her youll give her antibiotics.

you give her anitbiotics.

or you dont and there is hell to pay for the next 6 months

your dad come to you because he is having chest pain. this is your dad, the strongest man you know, your rock, you go into denial that it could be a heart problem and tell him its heartburn. he has a heart attack in your office. instead of going into action to save his life you panic over the idea of losing your father and burst into tears.

all of the pressures that patients put on you are doubled and tripled by one being a family member. it makes it more difficult to treat them properly.

*testimony*

So the answer to the original post is NO. Not ever.

Dude, you just rewrote Lolita, without the long words! :(

I could see such a relationship being ethical if the two people involved basically agreed to put the relationship completely out of their minds during the schoolday. They would basically have to be completely different people while in school. However, that doesn't make the idea of such a relationship any less hot.

because you cant be professional and detached when its your family. famliy dynamics always come into play sometimes disastrously so.

suppose your mother has a cold and comes to you for treatment. you tell her to rest up, take vitamin C and call you if something worse develops.

she says she wants an antibiotic.

you explain that its not appropriate to give antibiotics for a cold.

she says that if you love her youll give her antibiotics.

you give her anitbiotics.

OK, I'm starting to see it. Unprofessional conduct.

or you dont and there is hell to pay for the next 6 months

This seems to assume your mother is a complete bitch and has no respect for your life's work. In some cases that would be true, I guess.

your dad come to you because he is having chest pain. this is your dad, the strongest man you know, your rock, you go into denial that it could be a heart problem and tell him its heartburn.
You recognize that you are a crap doctor, a waste of your professors' time, and take six months off to write a book. ;)
he has a heart attack in your office. instead of going into action to save his life you panic over the idea of losing your father and burst into tears.
No. Honestly, if you had the skills to save his life, you wouldn't waste time crying. The 'mother' example was much stronger.

all of the pressures that patients put on you are doubled and tripled by one being a family member. it makes it more difficult to treat them properly.

You made a strong case I think. I'm half-convinced.
I'm not a doctor, but I guess there are personal factors which make it hard to be professional.

Wouldn't the conflict of interest possibilities be there anyway if there was in intention to begin a relationship after graduation. If a teacher thinks "I'm going to be in a relationship with x next month" are their actions likely to be any different to if they were in a relationship.

OK, I'm starting to see it. Unprofessional conduct.



This seems to assume your mother is a complete bitch and has no respect for your life's work. In some cases that would be true, I guess.


You recognize that you are a crap doctor, a waste of your professors' time, and take six months off to write a book. ;)

No. Honestly, if you had the skills to save his life, you wouldn't waste time crying. The 'mother' example was much stronger.



You made a strong case I think. I'm half-convinced.
I'm not a doctor, but I guess there are personal factors which make it hard to be professional.

the quality of my examples is not the point. the point is that professional ethics isnt decdied on a case by case basis. it is considered unethical to treat your family because family dynamics interfere with good medical practice.

Wouldn't the conflict of interest possibilities be there anyway if there was in intention to begin a relationship after graduation. If a teacher thinks "I'm going to be in a relationship with x next month" are their actions likely to be any different to if they were in a relationship.

maybe maybe not. who are you more invovled with, the person you are dating or the person you intend to date?

you may think you intend to pursue X next month, X might have a different point of view. by asking X now you cant be sure that s/he isnt agreeing only to get better grades out of you. if you wait, you know that s/he is interested only in dating you, not in gaining something from your greater power.

I am FAR from a sexual prude, and prudishness is not what I am basing my answer on, but rather on professionalism. I believe it it unacceptable for a teacher to become involved with his or her student. That can change once the student is no longer under the tutelage of that particular teacher (better yet, when that student no longer attends the same school). In my mind, as a teacher, it's an abuse of power, an inherently abusive situation if initiated and sustained by the teacher...and an indication of total lack of professional ethics, even if the student was the one to initiate it, and the exploitation runs in the other direction.

As a teacher, you don't have the luxury of giving into your wants and desires. You may want to smack your students around when they piss you off, but you don't get to. You may want to sleep with your hot students, but you don't get to. If you can't handle those restrictions, choose another profession.

i thought it was illegal. am i wrong?

i thought it was illegal. am i wrong?

Depends on the jurisdiction. But generally, it is illegal.

being in a position of authority it's much too easy for an adult teacher to seduce a student using their position of trust and continued close proximity as a tool to seduce, it's absolutely unacceptable...if the teacher was to meet a student in a different situation that teacher becomes just another icky old guy and just not cool so unlikely to succeed in seducing a much younger person...

Had a risk of being unprofessional. It didn't fail, maybe thanks to the fact that the student involved was a good student to begin with, reducing the impact on the evaluation, grades or aprecciation.

What you fail to see is that it was unprofessional whether you unfairly graded her work at all. You put yourself in a situation where you had a conflict of interest - where you had to think about how giving a particular grade might affect your relationship, when it should never have been an issue. You put yourself in a situation where one student might have been getting extra help in the class because you cared more about that student than all the others. You put yourself in a situation where, whether you truly did anything wrong or not, the appearance of wrongdoing would always be present.

I also thought I couldn't. In the end, I proved I can. Until further notice, I will maintain my current line of thinking.

The fact that you keep pointing out that everything was fine and dandy because "she was a good student anyways" speaks volumes otherwise.

Proved to myself that I can. As long as that goes, I take my field experience regarding the situation as more important than just assumptions of other people. I agree with your point in that it can go wrong, but I refute the absolute denial by giving proof that sometimes it doesn't.

It doesn't have to go visibly wrong to be unprofessional to begin with.

I'll be convinced of that until proved otherwise. Oh, I have been engaged in relationships with superiors and underlings at work, and I have been able to separate and discern things there.

The fact that you had to "separate and discern things" demonstrate that the conflict of interest was present. And maybe you didn't provide any special treatment or receive any - but was it perceived that way by others?

*snip*

This is precisely the problem. When you are trying to maintain a professional appearance, even the suggestion of impropriety can come back to bite you in the butt.

the quality of my examples is not the point. the point is that professional ethics isnt decdied on a case by case basis. it is considered unethical to treat your family because family dynamics interfere with good medical practice.

I respect your point of view.

I guess I'm a bit of an idealist. I think of a doctor as someone who lives by those ethics, and has the intellect and the moral strength to decide "case-by-case" without getting it wrong too often. If they need a law to force them to give their own family competent medical treatment, I really don't want them messing with my body.

I think of teachers, priests, politicians and plumbers in the same way. The vast majority of them are competent and doing their best in every case, and the threat of having their qualifications taken off them for malpractice (while obviously necessary to prevent frauds and slackers) in a case-by-case way makes them more cautious and conservative, and thereby less competent. I'm prepared to have professionals take risks with their treatment of me, so long as those are calculated and informed risks, and they're explained to me. Most risks are well worth taking.

The exception is lawyers. 'Live by the law, die by the law,' for them.

What you fail to see is that it was unprofessional whether you unfairly graded her work at all. You put yourself in a situation where you had a conflict of interest - where you had to think about how giving a particular grade might affect your relationship, when it should never have been an issue. You put yourself in a situation where one student might have been getting extra help in the class because you cared more about that student than all the others. You put yourself in a situation where, whether you truly did anything wrong or not, the appearance of wrongdoing would always be present.

Grades didn't affect any of the relationships, because we talked about that, in both cases. "I won't stop being your teacher and you my student, with everything related to that part" is usually enough. He didn't get extra help, nor did I, except for questions and casual conversation about the matter at hand. The appearance of wrondoing is maybe for people and cultures like yours, that seem to be against it for no other reason than "You know...It's wrong". I prefer people here to tell me "Jesus hates Teachers Who Sleep With Students" than the "It's just wrong, you know?" argument.

The point is that it can be done without any of the troubles you are pointing at. In any relationship there are conflicts of interests. Damn, if you are living together, you have a conflict between how you always liked your house to be, and how you actually have it because of the other person. Limiting areas is all you need, and you should do it beforehand. "This is out of school" is all you need.

The fact that you keep pointing out that everything was fine and dandy because "she was a good student anyways" speaks volumes otherwise.

HE was a good student. I was too. It was his favorite subject. Mine too. I fell in love with a literature teacher, my student fell in love with his music aprecciation teacher. I was good at literature, very good, the best. And he was also the best of the class, even before we could have anything. My grades were even better than after I got my affair with my teacher, and my student just kept having fantastic grades because he was good at it, not because he was sharing my bed. Because in both cases professional and love issues were placed apart.

Everything was fine and dandy. They even ended happily and I am friend of both of them now. What's so difficult to understand?


It doesn't have to go visibly wrong to be unprofessional to begin with.

Yes it does. If it doesn't go wrong...Why is it unprofessional? Please abstain of give me the answer "It is unprofessional because it is unprofessional". think harder at least.

The fact that you had to "separate and discern things" demonstrate that the conflict of interest was present. And maybe you didn't provide any special treatment or receive any - but was it perceived that way by others?

I didn't get any complains, at least. That gives me an idea of how was perceived. If that was perceived in a wrong way, at least noone complained too much.

And of course I had to separate and discern things. I have to in every relationship I have ever had, teacher or not teacher, student or not student. Have you ever been in a relationship, in a serious one? All have conflicts of interest, all need to separate and discern things. The fact of teaching, studying or anything does not, in my opinion, have anything to do with that.

I wouldn't have a relationship with a student, if only because it would put me in an uncomfortable situation when I would then have to assess that student's work, and possibly give her bad marks.

And it'd be even more uncomfortable if she gave you bad marks.

i thought it was illegal. am i wrong?

Not in my country.

Grades didn't affect any of the relationships, because we talked about that, in both cases. "I won't stop being your teacher and you my student, with everything related to that part" is usually enough. He didn't get extra help, nor did I, except for questions and casual conversation about the matter at hand. The appearance of wrondoing is maybe for people and cultures like yours, that seem to be against it for no other reason than "You know...It's wrong". I prefer people here to tell me "Jesus hates Teachers Who Sleep With Students" than the "It's just wrong, you know?" argument.

The point is that it can be done without any of the troubles you are pointing at. In any relationship there are conflicts of interests. Damn, if you are living together, you have a conflict between how you always liked your house to be, and how you actually have it because of the other person. Limiting areas is all you need, and you should do it beforehand. "This is out of school" is all you need.



HE was a good student. I was too. It was his favorite subject. Mine too. I fell in love with a literature teacher, my student fell in love with his music aprecciation teacher. I was good at literature, very good, the best. And he was also the best of the class, even before we could have anything. My grades were even better than after I got my affair with my teacher, and my student just kept having fantastic grades because he was good at it, not because he was sharing my bed. Because in both cases professional and love issues were placed apart.

Everything was fine and dandy. They even ended happily and I am friend of both of them now. What's so difficult to understand?




Yes it does. If it doesn't go wrong...Why is it unprofessional? Please abstain of give me the answer "It is unprofessional because it is unprofessional". think harder at least.



I didn't get any complains, at least. That gives me an idea of how was perceived. If that was perceived in a wrong way, at least noone complained too much.

And of course I had to separate and discern things. I have to in every relationship I have ever had, teacher or not teacher, student or not student. Have you ever been in a relationship, in a serious one? All have conflicts of interest, all need to separate and discern things. The fact of teaching, studying or anything does not, in my opinion, have anything to do with that.

im flattered that youre thinking of me but i didnt say any of those things

you are justifying your own bad behavior. i guess if its not a secret and the head of your institution has no problem with it, then you are OK. its still not good professional behavior.

Grades didn't affect any of the relationships, because we talked about that, in both cases.

You talked about it. Hence, it was an issue in the relationship. The fact that you had to discuss it all proves that the conflict of interest was present.

The appearance of wrondoing is maybe for people and cultures like yours, that seem to be against it for no other reason than "You know...It's wrong". I prefer people here to tell me "Jesus hates Teachers Who Sleep With Students" than the "It's just wrong, you know?" argument.

The appearance of wrongdoing is important in any profession. Your student/significant other was a good student, you say. Great. How many of your other students lost respect for you because they thought she was getting good grades for sex? How many of your colleagues? Or did you hide the relationship away, knowing it might shame you?

The point is that it can be done without any of the troubles you are pointing at.

No, it can't. You've even made it clear that you had said troubles. You dealt with them better than most, but they were there.

In any relationship there are conflicts of interests.

And when you choose to put yourself in a situation where you insert a conflict of interest into your profession, that is, by definition, unprofessional.

Damn, if you are living together, you have a conflict between how you always liked your house to be, and how you actually have it because of the other person. Limiting areas is all you need, and you should do it beforehand. "This is out of school" is all you need.

Yes, because people are really that compartmentalized. They are completely different personalities while at work - obviously.

HE was a good student. I was too. It was his favorite subject. Mine too. I fell in love with a literature teacher, my student fell in love with his music aprecciation teacher. I was good at literature, very good, the best. And he was also the best of the class, even before we could have anything. My grades were even better than after I got my affair with my teacher, and my student just kept having fantastic grades because he was good at it, not because he was sharing my bed. Because in both cases professional and love issues were placed apart.

Lovely. How many of the other students thought that sharing beds had nothing to do with it? How many colleagues? How many times did the student in the situation have to wonder if they might have been graded a little more leniently - even if it wasn't on purpose - than their peers?

Everything was fine and dandy. They even ended happily and I am friend of both of them now. What's so difficult to understand?

And it was still unprofessional, by the very definition of the word.

Yes it does. If it doesn't go wrong...Why is it unprofessional? Please abstain of give me the answer "It is unprofessional because it is unprofessional". think harder at least.

It is unprofessional because it creates unnecessary conflicts of interest within the profession and because even the perception of impropriety reflects badly upon the profession itself.

I didn't get any complains, at least. That gives me an idea of how was perceived. If that was perceived in a wrong way, at least noone complained too much.

Most people don't complain to their teachers when they have no respect for them. The fact that you received no complaints is irrelevant.

And of course I had to separate and discern things. I have to in every relationship I have ever had, teacher or not teacher, student or not student. Have you ever been in a relationship, in a serious one? All have conflicts of interest, all need to separate and discern things. The fact of teaching, studying or anything does not, in my opinion, have anything to do with that.

And, when those conflicts of interest involve your profession, you are acting in an unprofessional manner.

Edit: BTW, you misattributed most of that post.

"Lord, deliver us from temptation".

That basically is the essence of conflict of interest policies. Maybe you CAN handle it, maybe a doctor CAN treat his family fairly. Maybe myself as an attorney can fairly represent a company that I have a financial stake in. Maybe a teacher can deal with a student fairly and have a romantic relationship with that student.

But maybe not. You might be able to, you might not be able to. Conflict of interest policies exist so that this never has to be an issue. We don't know if you can handle it, we don't know if you can deal fairly with that student, we don't know if your legal advice will be tainted, we don't know if you can treat your family. We just don't know.

So we don't even want you to have the option. A professional who doesn't act professionally not only harms his student/client/patient, he harms himself. Thus these conflict of interest policies protect not only the student/client/patient, they protect the teacher/lawyer/doctor as well, because it prevents temptation. Maybe you can deal with it, or maybe you can't. It's best for everyone if, simply, you don't.

*snip*

Wow. What a way to learn.

Conceivably? Yes. I could see it working.

Usually? Probably not. Too many problems.

Of course it's unacceptable, that's what makes it so hawt.

Of course it's unacceptable, that's what makes it so hawt.

qft

Of course it's unacceptable, that's what makes it so hawt.

So roleplay it.

Getting arrested and having a sexy cop force you to submit to him may be hawt too, but it's not something most people actually want to happen.

"Lord, deliver us from temptation".

That basically is the essence of conflict of interest policies. Maybe you CAN handle it, maybe a doctor CAN treat his family fairly. Maybe myself as an attorney can fairly represent a company that I have a financial stake in. Maybe a teacher can deal with a student fairly and have a romantic relationship with that student.

But maybe not. You might be able to, you might not be able to. Conflict of interest policies exist so that this never has to be an issue. We don't know if you can handle it, we don't know if you can deal fairly with that student, we don't know if your legal advice will be tainted, we don't know if you can treat your family. We just don't know.

So we don't even want you to have the option. A professional who doesn't act professionally not only harms his student/client/patient, he harms himself. Thus these conflict of interest policies protect not only the student/client/patient, they protect the teacher/lawyer/doctor as well, because it prevents temptation. Maybe you can deal with it, or maybe you can't. It's best for everyone if, simply, you don't.

Well said. In other words, because we DO know that NOT everyone can maintain proper standards and boundaries in such situations, we err on the side of CAUTION as opposed to the side of "well, this woman seems like she can make it work, this other one, not so much."

There is too much to risk for administrators in potential legal action, perception of unethical/unprofessional behavior which can lead to declining enrollment (and therefore loss of money/positions), and so forth. Too much to leave to chance and the unknown of the suitability of teacher X and student Y to keep the relationship discreet.

Wow. What a way to learn.

In spades.

If I could go back and tell myself that I was in for roughly seven years of administrative hell, I would. I didn't break any law, but Administrative Codes, so there was no legal/civil aspect, but this was bad enough.

What chafed the most was that I knew both my old music teacher and (male) teachers of his era got away with ten TIMES what I was being raked over the coals for. In no way do I think that it excuses my actions, but I was still in the profession as a clinician/adjudicator and still had regular contact with those older lechers. It was so unbelievably hard to look them in the eye without lashing out at them. I know they had sex with students and chose them as favorites for solo work and such...and they were still teaching, and at their level of experience, raking in the big salaries. And here I was, however justly, cut off from the profession I studied for in the age level I knew how to motivate best...all for what was, by comparison, barely a scratch of the surface of unethical behavior.

That's why I am so adamantly against the concept. Yes, some European countries may be more cavalier about the subject, but a miniscule dalliance cost me my career. I know now that today, you've got no choice but to make sure everything you do and say is above reproach, no matter how you feel. Even the hint of imporpriety is simply not worth the torrent of consequences.

It may not be fair, but it's the risk you take when you enter a profession like teaching. As horrible as it may be, community standards frankly DEFINE professionalism...what is allowed in one school disctrict may be grounds for dismissal in another. We are in an incredible position of trust as teachers, and the even unfounded fears of our clients (students, parents and wider community) are paramount. As a parent, I do not think those standards are unreasonable, which is why my private life is PRIVATE. I may hate having to conform to certain standards, which go directly against my beliefs, but as long as those standards are not inhumane, I will, in public, live up to them.

We had this pounded into us in our ethics class. It's not fair. It's not nice. And sometimes we do need to fight it...but for the most part, we need to suck it up and adhere to our code of conduct. It's there to maintain a certain level of trust between us, and the people who turn their children over to us.

I had no idea this happened to you, Intangelon, and I really feel for you. I had students push things, and sometimes it was hard to resist, but I knew early on that temptation could mean an end to my career, and that it wasn't worth it. As I get older, that becomes less of an issue because I frankly can't be bothered with people younger than 25...21 if I'm really stretching it.

Shitty deal though...so are you out of teaching totally?

What chafed the most was that I knew both my old music teacher and (male) teachers of his era got away with ten TIMES what I was being raked over the coals for. In no way do I think that it excuses my actions, but I was still in the profession as a clinician/adjudicator and still had regular contact with those older lechers. It was so unbelievably hard to look them in the eye without lashing out at them. I know they had sex with students and chose them as favorites for solo work and such...and they were still teaching, and at their level of experience, raking in the big salaries. And here I was, however justly, cut off from the profession I studied for in the age level I knew how to motivate best...all for what was, by comparison, barely a scratch of the surface of unethical behavior.

And the worst thing, I would think, is that those teachers - or those types of teachers - really were the cause of the reaction to your behavior. Most of what you described sounded truly harmless. A music teacher taking students to a jazz concert? Sounds perfectly appropriate to me, although the fact that only one student ended up going could raise some questions. Lunch to discuss a student's options at the next stage of their career? Should be just fine.

But because there have been teachers who have stepped over the line, even the most innocent interest in a student's life seems to be suspect now. Some of the regulations are truly over the top, and should be stopped. Places in which it is against the rules for a teacher to hug a student, for instance, have done nothing but remove the bond that might exist between teachers and students. But most administrations aren't that extreme, and the rules are there specifically because these situations have been abused in the past.

Well, I know of this teacher who have sex with his 16 years old student, who then proceeded to divorced his wife and marry the young girl instead:rolleyes:

Ok. Well, as long as it was consensual and not rape, I would consider it ok, but a little on the sketchy side.

Middle-aged teacher has sex with a teenaged student.
Middle-aged man has sex with a teenaged girl.

Is there not a power imbalance, no matter who the man and girl might be?


I know now that today, you've got no choice but to make sure everything you do and say is above reproach, no matter how you feel. Even the hint of imporpriety is simply not worth the torrent of consequences.

And that is the terrible thing about today’s need for PC. And, of course, the need to avoid lawsuits.
One thing is that there shouldn’t be a sexual relationship between teacher and student. Quite another is today’s school-environment where a student can’t even give his / hers teacher a hug.

And that is the terrible thing about today’s need for PC. And, of course, the need to avoid lawsuits.
One thing is that there shouldn’t be a sexual relationship between teacher and student. Quite another is today’s school-environment where a student can’t even give his / hers teacher a hug.

Times have changed. As a child, I used to play out in the yard unsupervised. I would never let my kids do this. As teachers, we need to recognise that standards have changed.

It certainly doesn't help that a lot of kid-touchers tend to go into professions that give them access to said kids.

Are they the majority? Certainly not. But, again...times have changed.

Middle-aged teacher has sex with a teenaged student.
Middle-aged man has sex with a teenaged girl.

Is there not a power imbalance, no matter who the man and girl might be?

Yes, but the power imbalance is even greater if the adult is in a direct position of authority over the teenager.

It may not be fair, but it's the risk you take when you enter a profession like teaching. As horrible as it may be, community standards frankly DEFINE professionalism...what is allowed in one school disctrict may be grounds for dismissal in another. We are in an incredible position of trust as teachers, and the even unfounded fears of our clients (students, parents and wider community) are paramount. As a parent, I do not think those standards are unreasonable, which is why my private life is PRIVATE. I may hate having to conform to certain standards, which go directly against my beliefs, but as long as those standards are not inhumane, I will, in public, live up to them.

We had this pounded into us in our ethics class. It's not fair. It's not nice. And sometimes we do need to fight it...but for the most part, we need to suck it up and adhere to our code of conduct. It's there to maintain a certain level of trust between us, and the people who turn their children over to us.

I had no idea this happened to you, Intangelon, and I really feel for you. I had students push things, and sometimes it was hard to resist, but I knew early on that temptation could mean an end to my career, and that it wasn't worth it. As I get older, that becomes less of an issue because I frankly can't be bothered with people younger than 25...21 if I'm really stretching it.

Shitty deal though...so are you out of teaching totally?

Shitty deal that I basically asked for -- I'm not looking for absolution or sympathy. I am comfortable with my life and that story as part of it and I feel a compulsion to tell it in order to alert those new to or considering the teaching profession of either gender just how difficult adhering to those things we heard in "Education Issues and Law", or whatever ethics class you took, can be.

I am currently a college professor at a small private college in the upper Great Plains. I had to take this job and move away from everyone I know and love, and the city I love the best because of my mistake. I just want to emphasize the long-ranging consequences of thinking anyone can really "handle it".

I can't seem to have a decent conversation now with any woman under 25, and I don't seem to be genuinely attracted to those under 28. My experience shaped some of that, but having lived at 30 for three years with a woman a decade my junior, I've had enough. I'm not saying I wouldn't date a 26-year-old now, but there'd have to be something unreasonably special and significant to me about her. Attractions for me below that age are now easily identifiable as hard-wired hard-ons as opposed to cues to try and start a relationship. In short, I certainly appreciate young women's allure, and if I were really capable of one-off sexual encounters on every level (I'm okay with it morally and physically, but emotionally, not so much), I probably wouldn't stop myself from chasing after younger women. But that's not me. Those I attracted I know now I did at least partially because of my status as a teacher.

As you say, a hard lesson to learn by experience, but learned nonetheless.


EDIT: BTW, lovely to "see" you, Sin.

Great to be seen:)

Go to sleep for a bit... Ah, NSG.

Any case, adding in some more thoughts to clarify my position on this after reading some posts; in regards to why it is wrong for teachers and students to have a romantic relationship (and I’d say even being friends is pushing it at times):

The power imbalance: Teachers are in positions of authority. Along with the fact that power can be used to threaten students into a relation (or revenge) we must also USE that authority at times, sometimes in ways that would hurt the one that we’re having a relationship with. I have to, at times; discipline my students for whatever reason. Most of the time the time the discipline is nothing more than doing the teacher loom to remind a student that he or she needs to buckle down and get to work and not talk in class. However, sometimes I may have to use other forms of discipline to correct a problem in the class, maybe referring the student to the principle, or worse. The methods I use as a teacher are not the same that I would ever use if I had a difference of opinion with my wife though. You don’t threaten your girlfriend with detention, you can’t force your boyfriend to stay after dinner and complete the assignment, and you don’t tell your S/O that they have to go to see the principle due to violation of a dress code. Yeah, the student may be the best student in the world, but there is ALWAYS the possibility that we will need to use the authority of a teacher as a teacher. The S/O may feel extremely hurt that you did so, or challenge the authority (which would cause the teacher to lose that authority, especially if other students see such a challenge go unanswered), or a whole host of other issues.

Power attracts: Not mentioned here is that many times the student may seek out such a relationship because of the power. They may not be thinking ‘Well, if I sleep with the teacher I’ll get an A’ (Though that is also likely), but in a way, teachers are celebrities. The attraction the student feels may not be so much the actual teacher, but the power and authority that the teacher wields and represents, the same as why so many teens are so attracted to entertainment stars (if on a much lower level). That is most definitely not the basis for a good relationship.

Trust: Finally, we’re put into positions of authority by the community over their kids. We’re being asked to take care of their children, to teach and to guide them. It would be a serious violation of that trust to start boinging the very kids we’ve been entrusted with.

Now, it may indeed happen that there are relationships that work and work great. I’ve heard of a few and met one couple that has beaten the odds, but the odds are very much against such a relationship working out. If a teacher and a student really cares for each other and really wants to pursue a relationship then wait until the student graduates or otherwise leaves the teacher’s class, then see if the love fires still burns as brightly.

I must say, I think most people might want to choose their wife over statuatory rape charges. Of course, I could be wrong.