NationStates Jolt Archive

Recently, the Prime Minister of Australia has coined a new catchphrase in his ongoing vitriol against education in Australia. Apparently, teaching kids the truth about what the white people of this country did to it's indigenous inhabitants and various other groups is now, the black armband approach. According to little Johnny Howard, children shouldn't be taught that genocide against the Tasmanian Aboriginals happened, that we sent indigenous soldiers into war without allowing them to hold guns, or about stolen generation. We also shouldn't teach them about the Tent Embassy, the Aboriginal cricket team sent to England before the first white team, or the many, many great things that indigenous people have done in this country. Apparently, this will cause them to grow up hating themselves and their country.

Instead, we should teach them the "truth", ANZACS, Captain Cook's "dicovered" Australia (conveniently forgetting that there were actually people here), about the great Australian explorers who got murdered by the evil blacks and so on.

I think what Howard is doing is politicizing history. He is imposing his values on it as a political stunt designed to incite the xenophobia and racism hiding just beneath the veneer of tolerance in middle Australia. And I think it's wrong. History should teach the good and the bad. I got taught the worst of what we did. I got taught that whites "invaded" Australia. I don't hate myself or our country. I just think that we have a fair bit to make up for.

The more I hear about Australia, the more it's starting to scare me.

Curse you, NSG, if not for you I could have kept my inner simpleton's image of carefree Australia a bit longer.

Recently, the Prime Minister of Australia has coined a new catchphrase in his ongoing vitriol against education in Australia. Apparently, teaching kids the truth about what the white people of this country did to it's indigenous inhabitants and various other groups is now, the black armband approach. According to little Johnny Howard, children shouldn't be taught that genocide against the Tasmanian Aboriginals happened, that we sent indigenous soldiers into war without allowing them to hold guns, or about stolen generation. We also shouldn't teach them about the Tent Embassy, the Aboriginal cricket team sent to England before the first white team, or the many, many great things that indigenous people have done in this country. Apparently, this will cause them to grow up hating themselves and their country.

Instead, we should teach them the "truth", ANZACS, Captain Cook's "dicovered" Australia (conveniently forgetting that there were actually people here), about the great Australian explorers who got murdered by the evil blacks and so on.

I think what Howard is doing is politicizing history. He is imposing his values on it as a political stunt designed to incite the xenophobia and racism hiding just beneath the veneer of tolerance in middle Australia. And I think it's wrong. History should teach the good and the bad. I got taught the worst of what we did. I got taught that whites "invaded" Australia. I don't hate myself or our country. I just think that we have a fair bit to make up for.

The "Black armband school" is not a Howard invention. It's a revisionist school that feels we should uncover the "truth" behind events, eg. Aboriginal history and massacres, French and Dutch explorers finding Australia before the Brits and other such.

Unfortunately, there is not really any such thing as the "truth" in history, and it will always end up being politicised. While there are definetely facts (eg, the holocaust occured), history is almost entirely subjective.

I really don't know much about the history of race relations in Australia, but I did have several Aboriginals visit my home about 14 yrs ago. It was this time of the year and just as damn cold. I took them out on the ice of Lake Bemidji and had them walk around the ice fishing houses. They went in one of them and looked down the hole. They thought it was all quite amazing. They went out to a Reservation in South Dakota (Standing Rock) and participated in a sweat lodge ceremony. They really like it all and felt at home out there.

Meh.

It happened, and I've nothing to do with it.

The more I hear about Australia, the more it's starting to scare me.

Try living here. I'm very concerned about where this country is willingly going.

I think what Howard is doing is politicizing history. He is imposing his values on it as a political stunt designed to incite the xenophobia and racism hiding just beneath the veneer of tolerance in middle Australia.
For history to be of any value, it must be somewhat politicized, by way of judgments and theories about the causes of what happened, or else it is simply the process of memorizing a few millenia of unhappy accidents.
The more I hear about Australia, the more it's starting to scare me.

Curse you, NSG, if not for you I could have kept my inner simpleton's image of carefree Australia a bit longer.
I think they're doing it on purpose to try and rebel against their image as an entire continent filled with knife wielding drunks who wrestle crocodiles, molest wild animals, and rescue New York reporters for a living.

The more I hear about Australia, the more it's starting to scare me.



The more I hear about Australia, the more it scares me, and I live here.

I think they're doing it on purpose to try and rebel against their image as an entire continent filled with knife wielding drunks who wrestle crocodiles, molest wild animals, and rescue New York reporters for a living.
I used to think that the worst side of Australia was the one on display when they're drunk at the Munich Oktoberfest. Oh, would that it be so simple. :(

The "Black armband school" is not a Howard invention. It's a revisionist school that feels we should uncover the "truth" behind events, eg. Aboriginal history and massacres, French and Dutch explorers finding Australia before the Brits and other such.

Unfortunately, there is not really any such thing as the "truth" in history, and it will always end up being politicised. While there are definetely facts (eg, the holocaust occured), history is almost entirely subjective.

Oh I agree entirely. But to me, what Howard is actually suggesting is hiding the facts, or ignoring them completely in favour of his version of history. A little like Holocaust denial .

Recently, the Prime Minister of Australia has coined a new catchphrase in his ongoing vitriol against education in Australia. Apparently, teaching kids the truth about what the white people of this country did to it's indigenous inhabitants and various other groups is now, the black armband approach. According to little Johnny Howard, children shouldn't be taught that genocide against the Tasmanian Aboriginals happened, that we sent indigenous soldiers into war without allowing them to hold guns, or about stolen generation. We also shouldn't teach them about the Tent Embassy, the Aboriginal cricket team sent to England before the first white team, or the many, many great things that indigenous people have done in this country. Apparently, this will cause them to grow up hating themselves and their country.

Instead, we should teach them the "truth", ANZACS, Captain Cook's "dicovered" Australia (conveniently forgetting that there were actually people here), about the great Australian explorers who got murdered by the evil blacks and so on.

I think what Howard is doing is politicizing history. He is imposing his values on it as a political stunt designed to incite the xenophobia and racism hiding just beneath the veneer of tolerance in middle Australia. And I think it's wrong. History should teach the good and the bad. I got taught the worst of what we did. I got taught that whites "invaded" Australia. I don't hate myself or our country. I just think that we have a fair bit to make up for.

What the fuck is with this guy!? Even Bush didn't do this.

(Shakes head sadly) And I thought the world had some measure of sanity...

Try living here. I'm very concerned about where this country is willingly going.

That offer to elope is still on the table... I've got savings...;)

For history to be of any value, it must be somewhat politicized, by way of judgments and theories about the causes of what happened, or else it is simply the process of memorizing a few millenia of unhappy accidents.

Yeah, but judging and theorising about what happened is not the same as ignoring events totally, or deliberately skewing events because we don't like the way they portray us.

I think they're doing it on purpose to try and rebel against their image as an entire continent filled with knife wielding drunks who wrestle crocodiles, molest wild animals, and rescue New York reporters for a living.

Well, we have hit puberty as a nation. Drugs, sex, and emo whining about how much everyone hates us are the new order of the day.

Yeah, but judging and theorising about what happened is not the same as ignoring events totally, or deliberately skewing events because we don't like the way they portray us.


Actually, they don't even portray "you" all that negatively, just your long dead ancestors. I don't really get the fuss that Mr. Howard is putting up.

(Shakes head sadly) And I thought the world had some measure of sanity...

Do you believe in fairies too? :D

Do you believe in fairies too? :D

Heh. I'm firmly grounded in RL. In my corner of RL, (Massachusetts, USA) there is sanity. And no, I don't believe in fairies.

Actually, they don't even portray "you" all that negatively, just your long dead ancestors. I don't really get the fuss that Mr. Howard is putting up.

Stolen Generation and White Australia isn't that old. In fact, Howard was a young man through a lot of it. And we recently had another Black Death in Custody. Where the cops got off after beating a man to death on Palm Island in Queensland.

This has been going on for years everywhere else. I didn't think any government was stupid enough to openly say something about it like that, though. Unless most of the people were behind said government..... in which case, I recommend a valiant self-sacrifice by blowing up strategic areas of Canberra, to ensure the sanity of Australian minds. It's easy, all you need are fifty barrels of ammonium nitrate, a peanut butter sandwich, four hundred feet of string, an iguana or two, an old mainframe computer, and a helicopter.....


No?


... why do all of my suggestions get that kind of look? ;_;

Anyway.

Yeah, but judging and theorising about what happened is not the same as ignoring events totally, or deliberately skewing events because we don't like the way they portray us.
A certain amount of skewing is going to happen regardless, but ignoring major events is quite unfortunate. You can take solace in the fact that the Japanese have been ignoring major parts of their history since the 50's, though, and they seem to be surviving well enough.
Well, we have hit puberty as a nation. Drugs, sex, and emo whining about how much everyone hates us are the new order of the day.
And I must say that you're setting a terrible example for New Zealand. They look up to you because you're they're the younger brother, and you're not being a very good role model.

Heh. I'm firmly grounded in RL. In my corner of RL, (Massachusetts, USA) there is sanity. And no, I don't believe in fairies.

I prefer my own little world. I like fairies.

How to tell when you stay up late:
#16: You are engaged in a live forum discussion about Australian politics.

And I must say that you're setting a terrible example for New Zealand. They look up to you because you're they're the younger brother, and you're not being a very good role model.

The USA's really disappointed with your grades in school, too. And it's looking at rethinking that promise for a car upon graduation...

I prefer my own little world. I like fairies.

*waits for someone to make the inevitable bad joke*

How to tell when you stay up late:
#16: You are engaged in a live forum discussion about Australian politics.
:p

True, too. <.<

That offer to elope is still on the table... I've got savings...;)
Hehe. Too bad I don't. ;)

I don't really get the fuss that Mr. Howard is putting up.

It's simple, really. Howard is popular because he identifies so strongly with the mindset of the average Australian. Most think of Aboriginals (even if they do not speak it openly) as uncivilised savages with a penchant for petrol-sniffing whilst living off welfare and committing petty crime; therefore anything associated with them must be bad. It's populism, plain and simple.

I feel that it's only a matter of time before we shift from ignoring parts of our history such as the stolen generation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_generation) to outright condoning them; several of the more conservative newspaper columnists and the like have already begun to do so.

A certain amount of skewing is going to happen regardless, but ignoring major events is quite unfortunate. You can take solace in the fact that the Japanese have been ignoring major parts of their history since the 50's, though, and they seem to be surviving well enough.

Yeah but they have a lot of history. They can afford to ignore a lot of it. [/jk]

In reality, just because they are surviving well doesn't mean that it's okay for them to ignore the POW camps etc.

And I must say that you're setting a terrible example for New Zealand. They look up to you because you're they're the younger brother, and you're not being a very good role model.

Hey, what are ya gonna do? NZ keeps beating us at rugby! 'Snot fair. And they keep coming over here and talking funny and violating our sheep.

Both things should be taught, if each is factually correct.

I think Howard's right. Historians need to stop dwelling so much on the past.

Try living here. I'm very concerned about where this country is willingly going.

Up America's arse?

Up America's arse?

I thought we went there a looooooooooooong time ago.

I thought we went there a looooooooooooong time ago.

We're not all the way up until colour changes.

Up America's arse?

This explains my vegemite farts.

I think Howard's right. Historians need to stop dwelling so much on the past.

This is the video game generation speaking...the 'past' is now anything that happened more than six months ago.

This is the video game generation speaking...the 'past' is now anything that happened more than six months ago.

I interpreted his post as tongue-in-cheek. Even if it wasn't supposed to be, there's something amusing about the statement "historians need to stop dwelling so much on the past". :p

Stolen Generation and White Australia isn't that old. In fact, Howard was a young man through a lot of it.

Indeed, indeed.

And we recently had another Black Death in Custody. Where the cops got off after beating a man to death on Palm Island in Queensland.

Good old Queensland - from what I hear tale, the Deep North is the Oz equivilant of the US's Deep South, complete with the KKK.

(And, please, please don't take that as a putdown - I find Australians to be much like most Southerners - friendly, open, easy going, and embarrased about the likes of such idiots as David Duke and Pauline Hanson.)

Good old Queensland - from what I hear tale, the Deep North is the Oz equivilant of the US's Deep South, complete with the KKK.

(And, please, please don't take that as a putdown - I find Australians to be much like most Southerners - friendly, open, easy going, and embarrased about the likes of such idiots as David Duke and Pauline Hanson.)

Believe me, I don't take it as a put-down. It's truth. I'm embarassed to be a Queenslander. I want to move. Far, far away.

This is the video game generation speaking...the 'past' is now anything that happened more than six months ago.

Pft, what do you know about the video game generation. I know about history, World War Two was fought on twenty-five fronts and the Americans each had the stamina of ten men at least, that could reload a gun faster than anyone else. Germans are stupid, blind and deaf, also they were defeated fifty times springing back stronger and smarter each time, and aliens invaded sometime during or before it.

But of course, anybody who has a different view from you on what should be taught is committing an' 'assault against education'.

Up America's arse?

how sad is that

I think this would so be like no longer telling German history after like 1912...

I think this would so be like no longer telling German history after like 1912...

That's pretty much it...

Well, we have hit puberty as a nation. Drugs, sex, and emo whining about how much everyone hates us are the new order of the day.
I reckon that's probably it. And the worst thing is, even if Rudd wins, this whole new idea of being Australian (or rather, the idea of something that is "un-Australian") isn't gonna end.

I just saw a preview for Nine's new show (http://ninemsn.video.msn.com/v/en-au/v.htm?f=39&g=00027286-9b43-452f-b12f-73d1f5c12479&p=autvshows_aufirstlook&t=m1984&mediaid=32736), set on a Navy boat patrolling the coast. How is that anything but propaganda for the military? What the fuck is going on?

Meh.

It happened, and I've nothing to do with it.

Oh, that is a relief. Here I was about to post a letter to the editor demanding that you be held responsible for the previously mentioned crimes, and that it should be told in schools. But since it wasn't you I guess they don't need to know and this is topic is irrelevant to Australian history and not needed to be discussed at all. Thanks.

Recently, the Prime Minister of Australia has coined a new catchphrase in his ongoing vitriol against education in Australia. Apparently, teaching kids the truth about what the white people of this country did to it's indigenous inhabitants and various other groups is now, the black armband approach. According to little Johnny Howard, children shouldn't be taught that genocide against the Tasmanian Aboriginals happened, that we sent indigenous soldiers into war without allowing them to hold guns, or about stolen generation. We also shouldn't teach them about the Tent Embassy, the Aboriginal cricket team sent to England before the first white team, or the many, many great things that indigenous people have done in this country. Apparently, this will cause them to grow up hating themselves and their country.

Instead, we should teach them the "truth", ANZACS, Captain Cook's "dicovered" Australia (conveniently forgetting that there were actually people here), about the great Australian explorers who got murdered by the evil blacks and so on.

I think what Howard is doing is politicizing history. He is imposing his values on it as a political stunt designed to incite the xenophobia and racism hiding just beneath the veneer of tolerance in middle Australia. And I think it's wrong. History should teach the good and the bad. I got taught the worst of what we did. I got taught that whites "invaded" Australia. I don't hate myself or our country. I just think that we have a fair bit to make up for.

Actually, he has been pushing the 'don't-take-a-black-armband-approach' line for years now, and while you may just think it is because he doesn't want to acknowledge it because it makes us look bad, it actually goes a bit deeper. Apparently, if he does say 'sorry' (for stolen generation etc) then this will be acknowledging that these actually happened and would thus lead to lawsuits against the government costing millions of dollars in compensation. So, he isn't an asshole because he is racist, he is an asshole because he is cheap... Not gonna deny he would like to see the return of our 1950's immigration scheme as well though.

I reckon that's probably it. And the worst thing is, even if Rudd wins, this whole new idea of being Australian (or rather, the idea of something that is "un-Australian") isn't gonna end.

I just saw a preview for Nine's new show (http://ninemsn.video.msn.com/v/en-au/v.htm?f=39&g=00027286-9b43-452f-b12f-73d1f5c12479&p=autvshows_aufirstlook&t=m1984&mediaid=32736), set on a Navy boat patrolling the coast. How is that anything but propaganda for the military? What the fuck is going on?

It makes no nevermind who wins. This scary new attitude is here to stay methinks. Rudd and Howard are both scaremongering to garner votes in middle Australia. It disgusts me how evident the ugly underbelly of Australian racism can be in this country and how, with the right provocation, it can become downright acceptable.

I can't view video on my computer (stupid dial-up), but I think I know the show you're talking about. And it's pathetic how slavishly the Australian media works as a propaganda machine for government, defence and, increasingly, the religious right.

It makes no nevermind who wins. This scary new attitude is here to stay methinks. Rudd and Howard are both scaremongering to garner votes in middle Australia. It disgusts me how evident the ugly underbelly of Australian racism can be in this country and how, with the right provocation, it can become downright acceptable.

I can't view video on my computer (stupid dial-up), but I think I know the show you're talking about. And it's pathetic how slavishly the Australian media works as a propaganda machine for government, defence and, increasingly, the religious right.

I know a guy in my journalism class I worked on a story with who is best mates with one of the show's big new stars... Yep... Uh... See ya...

Actually, he has been pushing the 'don't-take-a-black-armband-approach' line for years now, and while you may just think it is because he doesn't want to acknowledge it because it makes us look bad, it actually goes a bit deeper. Apparently, if he does say 'sorry' (for stolen generation etc) then this will be acknowledging that these actually happened and would thus lead to lawsuits against the government costing millions of dollars in compensation. So, he isn't an asshole because he is racist, he is an asshole because he is cheap... Not gonna deny he would like to see the return of our 1950's immigration scheme as well though.

Actually, considering he has acknowledged several times that these things happened, I pretty much think it is his racism and his thinly-veiled belief that stolen generation wasn't necessarily a bad thing. Also, there have actually been lawsuits about this. So yeah, I'm leaning towards racism and his paternalistic attitudes.

Actually, he has been pushing the 'don't-take-a-black-armband-approach' line for years now, and while you may just think it is because he doesn't want to acknowledge it because it makes us look bad, it actually goes a bit deeper. Apparently, if he does say 'sorry' (for stolen generation etc) then this will be acknowledging that these actually happened and would thus lead to lawsuits against the government costing millions of dollars in compensation. So, he isn't an asshole because he is racist, he is an asshole because he is cheap... Not gonna deny he would like to see the return of our 1950's immigration scheme as well though.

if he did you know our Taxs will go up

Recently, the Prime Minister of Australia has coined a new catchphrase in his ongoing vitriol against education in Australia. Apparently, teaching kids the truth about what the white people of this country did to it's indigenous inhabitants and various other groups is now, the black armband approach.
*snip*

The Timewarp has gotten ridiculous!

.I profoundly reject the black armband view of Australian history. I believe the balance sheet of Australian history is a very generous and benign one. I believe that, like any other nation, we have black marks upon our history but amongst the nations of the world we have a remarkably positive history. I think there is a yearning in the Australian community right across the political divide for its leader to enunciate more pride and sense of achievement in what has gone before us. I think we have been too apologetic about our history in the past. I believe it is tremendously important, particularly as we approach the centenary of the Federation of Australia, that the Australia achievement has been a heroic one, a courageous one and a humanitarian one.

Slightly delayed news there. Extra points for posting years before NSG actually existed! :p

This is the video game generation speaking...the 'past' is now anything that happened more than six months ago.

lol, so true. I remember literally five years after Deep Blue Sea came out, I asked some kid in my grade about it and he goes "That? That's an old movie". I found that quite amusing.

Indeed, indeed.

Good old Queensland - from what I hear tale, the Deep North is the Oz equivilant of the US's Deep South, complete with the KKK.

(And, please, please don't take that as a putdown - I find Australians to be much like most Southerners - friendly, open, easy going, and embarrased about the likes of such idiots as David Duke and Pauline Hanson.)

Qld only get dished on by NSW and VIC because none of us three states know enough about the rest to rag on them. Anyway, I go to uni up in Townsville (right next to Palm Island- the death in custody). There does appear on the surface to be more racism up here than there is going south, but it is hard so say. Remember, of course, that Cronulla was in... Cronulla, and that it was Australia as a nation that voted for Pauline in Dancing with the Stars... :headbang:

Actually, considering he has acknowledged several times that these things happened, I pretty much think it is his racism and his thinly-veiled belief that stolen generation wasn't necessarily a bad thing. Also, there have actually been lawsuits about this. So yeah, I'm leaning towards racism and his paternalistic attitudes.

Oh, yeah, he doesn't deny that they happened, but I have heard several times from years back that an 'official' apology would open the floodgates.

Remember, of course, that Cronulla was in... Cronulla..
Now the first Aussie beach with Muslim lifesavers. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6324213.stm) :)

The Timewarp has gotten ridiculous!



Slightly delayed news there. Extra points for posting years before NSG actually existed! :p

lmao. gold. At least Howard didn't use any silly gun smilies! :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:

Now the first Aussie beach with Muslim lifesavers. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6324213.stm) :)

Nice article, thought I take exception to this:


Now they are about to receive that most coveted of Australian prizes - their bronze, surf life saving medallions.

I put it to you, BBC article, that stuff you get with alcohol purchases are more highly reguarded.

I put it to you, BBC article, that stuff you get with alcohol purchases are more highly reguarded.
I got myself a beach cricket ball. For free!

Though I didn't buy any beer, I sorted through the rubbish of the bottle-o next to the place I work at.

...

and that it was Australia as a nation that voted for Pauline in Dancing with the Stars... :headbang:

What's the problem? She dances better than she talks. The voters were just trying to push her in the direction of her true vocation ... presenting the weather on Channel 9.

Try living here. I'm very concerned about where this country is willingly going.

I'm not.

I'm not.
I've got a car for you.

http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/0,1518,459418,00.html

I got myself a beach cricket ball. For free!

Though I didn't buy any beer, I sorted through the rubbish of the bottle-o next to the place I work at.

Well, as I say, better to be dirty and with a beach cricket ball than clean and without one... I don't say it often.

I've got a car for you.

http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/0,1518,459418,00.html

Die Fahne hoch! Die Reihen fest geschlossen!

Die Fahne hoch! Die Reihen fest geschlossen!
See, the problem with you is that one never quite knows whether you have any idea what you're actually saying, whether you're joking or whether you happen to be serious this week.

See, the problem with you is that one never quite knows whether you have any idea what you're actually saying, whether you're joking or whether you happen to be serious this week.

QFT

See, the problem with you is that one never quite knows whether you have any idea what you're actually saying, whether you're joking or whether you happen to be serious this week.

You could have said that to me as easily. I'm very inconsistent.

I'd respond by going offline and thinking about it, possibly with some interludes of sleeping, eating and doing some work.

If I read TPF correctly, he'll think about it but not go into some emo death spiral. He'll probably just ignore you for a while :D

I've heard (from ex-pat Australians, no linkee sorry) that Australia started going down the shitter after the fall of White South Africa.

I've heard (from ex-pat Australians, no linkee sorry) that Australia started going down the shitter after the fall of White South Africa.

Pure coincidence, I'm sure.

Australia started going down the shitter because all societies go down the shitter if you idealize some place or time and hold it to be perfect. There's no way but down, from paradise, and no time like the past for a has-been.

And they say Britain is the Americans' lapdog....

Good old Queensland - from what I hear tale, the Deep North is the Oz equivilant of the US's Deep South, complete with the KKK.

Well, I haven't been out to that neck of the woods, but Alice Springs and the like are probably just as bad.

However...the most curious thing about the redneck Queenslanders is that the word "mate" is substituted with "****". It's really quite curious.


I just saw a preview for Nine's new show (http://ninemsn.video.msn.com/v/en-au/v.htm?f=39&g=00027286-9b43-452f-b12f-73d1f5c12479&p=autvshows_aufirstlook&t=m1984&mediaid=32736), set on a Navy boat patrolling the coast. How is that anything but propaganda for the military? What the fuck is going on?

Actually, it's been done before. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrol_Boat_%28TV_series%29) :)

[url=Potato Factory]I'm not.[/quote]

Well, thanks, Captain Obvious. Or is that Captain Australia? Or are we still Captain Germany? I'm sorry, what were you leaning towards lately? I've become lost.

Pure coincidence, I'm sure.
Not according to my unlinkable sources, it isn't.
Australia started going down the shitter because all societies go down the shitter if you idealize some place or time and hold it to be perfect. There's no way but down, from paradise, and no time like the past for a has-been.
Which is why an influx of white South Africans pining for the good ol' days of entitlement and Apartheid can't help but have made a less-than-ideal situation that much worse.

I got taught the worst of what we did. I got taught that whites "invaded" Australia. I don't hate myself or our country. I just think that we have a fair bit to make up for.
How does one describe what white Brits did to Australia as anything other than an invasion?

Which is why an influx of white South Africans pining for the good ol' days of entitlement and Apartheid can't help but have made a less-than-ideal situation that much worse.

Well...i'm really not so sure on that one, since I rarely bump into any (and i'd pick up the accent instantly). I know only one (father of a friend, and to the best of my knowledge isn't a racist - if he is, it certainly hasn't rubbed off on my friend)....I know a few other South Africans, but they're all of African or Indian ethnicity. There is hardly a massive white South African diaspora here, at least from what i've noticed - certainly not one large enough to make any real sort of difference to our politics.

I think the problem is from within Australia, rather than any outside influence...but coincidentally, it's also very middle-Australian to blame someone else for your own flaws. ;)

How does one describe what white Brits did to Australia as anything other than an invasion?

Oooh, *dons Liberal Party hat*

Australia was devoid of "civilization" and was therefore terra nullius.

Not according to my unlinkable sources, it isn't.

Which is why an influx of white South Africans pining for the good ol' days of entitlement and Apartheid can't help but have made a less-than-ideal situation that much worse.

*Sigh* I'll dumb it down for you, OK?

Your sources left Australia, thinking it was going down the shitter and too weak or cowardly to try to change that, they fled. Losers, you're welcome to them.

They're has-beens, too, because they were Australian. That guy with twenty words of English who risked drowning to live here, who's picking fruit and waiting on his refugee application -- he's an Australian to me, and your "ex-pat sources" ... well, they're not. Aussie is as Aussie does.

*Sigh* I'll dumb it down for you, OK?

Your sources left Australia, thinking it was going down the shitter and too weak or cowardly to try to change that, they fled. Losers, you're welcome to them.

They're has-beens, too, because they were Australian. That guy with twenty words of English who risked drowning to live here, who's picking fruit and waiting on his refugee application -- he's an Australian to me, and your "ex-pat sources" ... well, they're not. Aussie is as Aussie does.

Interesting.

...

I think the problem is from within Australia, rather than any outside influence...but coincidentally, it's also very middle-Australian to blame someone else for your own flaws. ;)

Quite frankly, I think the problem is the war.

Interesting.

If you find the dumbed-down and more inflammatory version "interesting," perhaps you would benefit from re-reading the sincere and elegiac version. 64 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12291303&postcount=64)

EDIT: This is a bastard thing to do, but I'm rat-arsed and I'm going to bed. Back in about 18 hours.

Recently, the Prime Minister of Australia has coined a new catchphrase in his ongoing vitriol against education in Australia. Apparently, teaching kids the truth about what the white people of this country did to it's indigenous inhabitants and various other groups is now, the black armband approach.

It's not a new phrase, unfortunately. I heard it already when I was in Australia in 2003.

And yes, Howard is engaging in a bit of unpleasant revisionism, trying to get Australians to support him because he encourages them to feel good about themselves.

By the way, have you got a link to an article? I'd be interested in reading Howard's latest ravings.

In fact, Howard first used the expression in 1996:


I profoundly reject the black armband view of Australian history. I believe the balance sheet of Australian history is a very generous and benign one. I believe that, like any other nation, we have black marks upon our history but amongst the nations of the world we have a remarkably positive history. I think there is a yearning in the Australian community right across the political divide for its leader to enunciate more pride and sense of achievement in what has gone before us. I think we have been too apologetic about our history in the past. I believe it is tremendously important, particularly as we approach the centenary of the Federation of Australia, that the Australia achievement has been a heroic one, a courageous one and a humanitarian one.

Prime Minister John Howard, October 30 1996.

Source (http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rp/1997-98/98rp05.htm#BLACK).

I used to think that the worst side of Australia was the one on display when they're drunk at the Munich Oktoberfest. Oh, would that it be so simple. :(

But that's our good side. It's when we're at our witty, intelligent best. ;)

See, the problem with you is that one never quite knows whether you have any idea what you're actually saying, whether you're joking or whether you happen to be serious this week.

Give me more credit than that. Although it's probably the best national anthem Germany's had, in terms of tune.

Well, thanks, Captain Obvious. Or is that Captain Australia? Or are we still Captain Germany? I'm sorry, what were you leaning towards lately? I've become lost.

Captain I Fucked Your Dad.

I just saw a preview for Nine's new show, set on a Navy boat patrolling the coast. How is that anything but propaganda for the military? What the fuck is going on?

OMYGOD NOT THE FREE SPEECH IT HURTS SO MUCH!

Why is it that people who make TV shows that are kinda-schminda supportive of the military are immediately engaged in OMG PROPAGANDA?

Instead, we should teach them the "truth", ANZACS, Captain Cook's "dicovered" Australia (conveniently forgetting that there were actually people here), about the great Australian explorers who got murdered by the evil blacks and so on.
But you have to understand the Aborigones didn't know where there actually were.
It took a white man to put Australia on the map.

But you have to understand the Aborigones didn't know where there actually were.
It took a white man to put Australia on the map.

Columbus didn't know where he was either. He still got credit for it.

But you have to understand the Aborigones didn't know where there actually were.
It took a white man to put Australia on the map.

Aboriginals knew exactly where they were - in terms meaningful and relevent to them. They had extremely precise knowledge of their respective lands and those of their neighbours. Very precise "oral maps" (or "mental maps") linking the land's physical features to the Dreaming, and telling them where precisely to find ressources such as water.

Non-Indigenous Australians today still don't know the map of Australia in the way Aboriginals did / do.

Non-Indigenous Australians today still don't know the map of Australia in the way Aboriginals did / do.

Sure we do. I've got the Metlink system mapped in my head.

Columbus didn't know where he was either. He still got credit for it.

Yeah, but he had to FIND where he didn't know where he was.

Columbus didn't know where he was either. He still got credit for it.
But it didn't take the White man '40,000' years to know roughly where he was in relations to others.
Sure maybe Columbus but really it was Vespuchi(Sp) that put it in context, in any case Global Navigation trumps.

How to tell when you stay up late:
#16: You are engaged in a live forum discussion about Australian politics.

:p

True, too. <.<

Yes, we're sick of the rest of the world being 12 hours behind us. Catch up! :p

Yes, we're sick of the rest of the world being 12 hours behind us. Catch up! :p
We are sick of Australia being 2 hours behind us!
But don't come any closer ya freaks!

Yes, we're sick of the rest of the world being 12 hours behind us. Catch up! :p

And the I-Kiribati, of course, are more advanced than anyone else. ;)

John Howard is probably the most astute politician that we've seen in Australia for 30+ years. He has left his rivals, both within his own party & the opposition, looking flat footed & foolish, whilst he emerges smelling of roses every time. He is the ultimate populist politician. He guages the public perception, then rides it like it's his idea. When he is challenged on an issue, he brushes it aside & brings the debate back to something he wants to highlight.

The "black armband history" debate is a perfect example. Instead of us talking about the wretched condition of many aboriginal communities, the high infant mortality rates, the much shorter expected lifespans, the drug & alcohol problems, the high unemployment, lack of education, etc, we're talking about which version of history is correct. Which is not to say it doesn't matter, but it's not as important as actually addressing the issues.

The man is a genius.

Having said all of that, I loathe Howard & almost everything he stands for.

Give me more credit than that. Although it's probably the best national anthem Germany's had, in terms of tune.
It was never a national anthem. It was sung by a bunch of people whose behaviour makes those Lebanese gang rapists look civilised.

OMYGOD NOT THE FREE SPEECH IT HURTS SO MUCH!

Why is it that people who make TV shows that are kinda-schminda supportive of the military are immediately engaged in OMG PROPAGANDA?
Because if Nine broadcasts it, that means they reckon people are gonna watch it. Which means there are a lot of people living around me who enjoy being told how great it is to serve in the military, and how we have to be protected from the big, bad world out there.

It's the same as "Border Patrol" and "Airport Security", which are great successes on TV here.

...

The man is a genius.

Having said all of that, I loathe Howard & almost everything he stands for.

He's on Lateline (ABC) right now, if you're interested.
Talking about carbon trading, believe it or not!

EDIT: Tony Jones murdered him on David Hicks. I paraphrase Howard: "We are happy with Hicks being tried by an American military commission, because if he was sent back to Australia to be tried, he would have to be set free because there is no law in Australia under which he could be tried. That, in a nutshell, is the Government's position."
It'll be in the papers.

Talking about carbon trading, believe it or not!
He's pretending he invented it. Unbelievable, really, considering they've been teaching it in 1st year econ courses for a decade or more, and that it's being used all over the world already.

The ridiculous thing is that he keeps going on about "not hurting industry". Hurting inefficient industry is the bloody point of it!

Because if Nine broadcasts it, that means they reckon people are gonna watch it. Which means there are a lot of people living around me who enjoy being told how great it is to serve in the military, and how we have to be protected from the big, bad world out there.

It's the same as "Border Patrol" and "Airport Security", which are great successes on TV here.

Horror! Horror! People having different opinions! Not everybody thinks the military is outdated! The sky is falling!

He's on Lateline (ABC) right now, if you're interested.
Talking about carbon trading, believe it or not!

He's pretending he invented it. Unbelievable, really, considering they've been teaching it in 1st year econ courses for a decade or more, and that it's being used all over the world already.

The ridiculous thing is that he keeps going on about "not hurting industry". Hurting inefficient industry is the bloody point of it!

Exactly my point. Riding the populist wave, whilst making himself appear as if he's actually leading it.

He's pretending he invented it. Unbelievable, really, considering they've been teaching it in 1st year econ courses for a decade or more, and that it's being used all over the world already.
...
He made a dreadful hash of the accusation that carbon trading is a tax. The only sense I could get out of it was that "taxes are market forces."

Tony Jones and John Howard are well-matched. Jones has the advantage of putting the questions (element of surprise) but they both win points. Howard is a clever politician, no doubt about it.

(Anyone remember when Kerry O'Brien hosted Lateline? Kerry would have had him doing that cute perplexed thing with his eyebrows and saying "I have no answer for that." Kerry would have owned him on Hicks and carbon trading.)

Horror! Horror! People having different opinions! Not everybody thinks the military is outdated! The sky is falling!
What?

What exactly are you trying to say? Am I supposed to enjoy the fact that they glorify the military on TV? That Australia has lost its immigration-friendly culture? That a show that is essentially saying that "everyone who comes from the outside is evil" beats all the ratings? That the youth's idea of rebellion apparently consists of carrying as many patriotic symbols as they can?

But personally, I wouldn't say that the military is necessarily outdated. But it is a necessary evil. It is an organisation made to kill people. It trains people to inflict harm. It is not something to be glorified, at best it should be tolerated and no more.

What?

What exactly are you trying to say? Am I supposed to enjoy the fact that they glorify the military on TV?

I don't see how bitching about people having a different opinion is a good thing.



That the youth's idea of rebellion apparently consists of carrying as many patriotic symbols as they can?

Perhaps this is because these symbols are now shunned by 'mainstream' 'progressives'? :D

But it is a necessary evil. It is an organisation made to kill people.

That's your opinion. My opinion is that some people should be killed. To quote Louis Bussenar, 'Some dead men should be killed again.' At any rate, that is not the subject. THe subject is that I don't think people should be bitching about other people having different opinions.

After all, tolerance is where it's at, yes?

I don't see how bitching about people having a different opinion is a good thing.
Let me put it this way...if Carl von Ossietzky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Ossietzky) had been "tolerant" and refrained from bitching, I wouldn't think as highly of him.

Let me put it this way...if Carl von Ossietzky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Ossietzky) had been "tolerant" and refrained from bitching, I wouldn't think as highly of him.

Bravo. Equate sacrifice in the face of a violent, murderous regime to bitching becaouse people merely don't share your values at life.

Bravo. Equate sacrifice in the face of a violent, murderous regime to bitching becaouse people merely don't share your values at life.
You know, the man was bitching even before the regime came to power.

Fact of the matter is that Australia has been taking a hard-right turn towards a sort of aggressive jingoism these last few years which I don't think it suits it very well. If you want to criticise me for not liking that turn of events, feel free.

You know, the man was bitching even before the regime came to power.

Fact of the matter is that Australia has been taking a hard-right turn towards a sort of aggressive jingoism these last few years which I don't think it suits it very well. If you want to criticise me for not liking that turn of events, feel free.

Dude. You've clearly never lived in a really jingoist, aggressive country. :D

Dude. You've clearly never lived in a really jingoist, aggressive country. :D
Well, no, but I've heard stories from my grandparents and I've read a lot about it as well. But something tells me that if things go on like this, I might well get the chance to find out soon enough. Remember, global warming might well send a few million environmental refugees this way, and imagine mainstream politics' reaction to that.

But hey, as long as we wave the flag, we're rebels. :rolleyes:

Well, no, but I've heard stories from my grandparents and I've read a lot about it as well. But something tells me that if things go on like this, I might well get the chance to find out soon enough.



I was born in the USSR.


Remember, global warming might well send a few million environmental refugees this way, and imagine mainstream politics' reaction to that.

Assuming the entire thing does n't drown...

But hey, as long as we wave the flag, we're rebels. :rolleyes:

Sure. The only rebels are the people who repeat exactly what hippies in the 1960's said.

I was born in the USSR.
So you're okay with the same crap all over again? The whole "they're all out to get us" stuff plastered everywhere?

Sure. The only rebels are the people who repeat exactly what hippies in the 1960's said.
I would have preferred people to think about what was going on, rather than this whole "we love our country" bullshit.

And considering what happened last time at the Big Day Out with the flags ("kiss the flag or we'll beat you up"), I would've thought people could have come up with a better idea.

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/hack/notes/mp3s/bdo_flag_two.mp3 I mean, listen to this crap. That's what we can expect in twenty years.

I would have preferred people to think about what was going on, rather than this whole "we love our country" bullshit.

What if someone actually thinks stuff through and ends up (gasp!) loving his country?

(For the record, I hate mine)

The whole "they're all out to get us" stuff plastered everywhere?

The big problem in the USSR was that you had no choice.

Here you just have a lot of people with opinions that differ from yours.

Guess what, in the free struggle of ideas, it's not always that your ideas are going to win out. That's part of life.

What?

What exactly are you trying to say? Am I supposed to enjoy the fact that they glorify the military on TV? That Australia has lost its immigration-friendly culture? That a show that is essentially saying that "everyone who comes from the outside is evil" beats all the ratings? That the youth's idea of rebellion apparently consists of carrying as many patriotic symbols as they can?
Awww, I found that funny. I saw a lot of kids going to Big Day Out with their face-flags and their flags-instead-of-t-shirts. A fair proportion of those were kids of middle-eastern descent, and the predicted riot didn't happen.

As a kid, I was a punk. I got in a bit late, so I was a bit desperate to be "shocking" and extreme. There were Nazi punks, there were Nazi skins, and punks hated them both because Nazism is anti-individual, it's hypocrisy and might-makes-right, and all the punks I knew hated that. Hating those things was what made them punks.
So I wore swastikas, reversed. The symbol I chose was characteristic of some religion (hinduism? something like that?) ... the outer arms of the symbol I used pointed out clockwise, instead of the nazi symbol which goes anticlockwise. I got more than my share of trouble, but as I saw it, it wasn't me who came off looking like a fascist.
So I'm looking at all those kids with their flags and their happy faces, and I'm thinking that maybe they're just playing with your head, and waving flags because it doesn't mean anything to them.

As to why I couldn't get a Big Day Out ticket at 9 AM the day the tickets went on sale, now that bugs me. Scalpers suck.

But personally, I wouldn't say that the military is necessarily outdated. But it is a necessary evil. It is an organisation made to kill people. It trains people to inflict harm. It is not something to be glorified, at best it should be tolerated and no more.
Hmm. No, yes, in part, in part, perhaps and no. You're a nice guy, I'll say that.

If the armed forces are a necessary evil (which I accept, while wishing it wasn't so), I see some benefit to honouring the armed forces. Not because they are "our" armed forces, or by pretending that they never do anything wrong, but because I think it's stupid and dangerous to have a purely 'professional' army, armed forces who are only as good as the money you pay them. Kids who want to serve their country should be encouraged, given respect for choosing to serve, whether or not circumstances have put them in the line of fire.
More succinctly: money can't buy a willingness to follow orders all the way to death. And that's what you need in a serviceperson.

What if someone actually thinks stuff through and ends up (gasp!) loving his country?
Then he or she wouldn't do it by faithfully watching "Airport Security" every week, or yelling obscenities while waving a flag around. Nor are they going to be enjoying this new patrol boat show (although I suppose maybe it's the best TV show ever, who knows) because it happens to see our good white navy crews fighting off floods of brown people.

The big problem in the USSR was that you had no choice.
The USSR was also different because it was set up from above, while here it is a bottom-up sort of movement.

But you heard of what Howard and his mates are talking about. "Australian values" and if you don't like them, get the fuck out. Where is the choice in that?

Here you just have a lot of people with opinions that differ from yours.
As I would have had in Germany in 1932. It's just not a valid reason to just sit idly by and think it's all peachy.

Guess what, in the free struggle of ideas, it's not always that your ideas are going to win out. That's part of life.
So I'm supposed to let an idea that will end with me being excluded and persecuted just spread and take hold?

I'm an immigrant. I'm not Aussie, I never will be. People know as soon as I open my mouth, because I don't sound like them. Why should I tolerate having to defend myself every week when I deliver pizza to some bogan because I still haven't changed citizenship?

Fact of the matter is that the Australian flag has become a symbol of exclusion, as has the whole notion of "Australian values". I'm one of the unfortunate minority who happen to not be in the club, as it were. And I am not for a second going to accept your assurance that that's just the way it should be.

Not according to my unlinkable sources, it isn't.

Which is why an influx of white South Africans pining for the good ol' days of entitlement and Apartheid can't help but have made a less-than-ideal situation that much worse.

lmao, your sources are idiots. I have never heard anything relating to that ever in my life, and the only met one South African before. We billeted him, he was over here for cricket. Nice enough guy. I fail to see how such a small population could make Australia go down the shitter.

Newsflash to Mr. Howard. It happened. It's history, the events actually occured, you can't change the past. And those who forget it are condemned to repeat it, to be cliche. What a cockwad.

It was never a national anthem. It was sung by a bunch of people whose behaviour makes those Lebanese gang rapists look civilised.

It was virtually a national anthem. And nothing can make rapists look civilised.

It was virtually a national anthem. And nothing can make rapists look civilised.
Look up the way Rosa Luxemburg died.

This is the same Howard who thinks the difference between parents mercenarily throwing their children overboard to force a country to take them, and desperately throwing their children clear of a sinking ship so they can be rescued by a waiting boat is a niggling thing of no import? The same Howard who thinks having children born in concentration camps in the middle of the baking Australian desert is a fine thing for the nation?


Really, given the guy's track record, his attempts to rewrite history and to denigrate and downgrade the hardship and contribution of Australia's first people, in order to further his own agenda, seem postively benign.