NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lbhate3feb03,0,2245473.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Would this be a double standard in your estimation?
maybe a 1/2 standard...

I guarantee if the races were reversed in this case it'd be maximum sentences.

That's ridiculous. An assault is an assault regardless of whether they had a "past history" and they should be sentenced accordingly. I mean, just because it's your first time doing it doesn't make it any less severe, and the punishment should not be any less severe.

Whether race played a role is something I can't comment on, but the sentence itself is far too lenient for a crime like this regardless.

BTW, nice Dark Tower reference in your name.

That's ridiculous. An assault is an assault regardless of whether they had a "past history" and they should be sentenced accordingly. I mean, just because it's your first time doing it doesn't make it any less severe, and the punishment should not be any less severe.

Whether race played a role is something I can't comment on, but the sentence itself is far too lenient for a crime like this regardless.

BTW, nice Dark Tower reference in your name.

"Past history" is redundant.

"Past history" is redundant.

Yeah, it is. :eek:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lbhate3feb03,0,2245473.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Would this be a double standard in your estimation?
maybe a 1/2 standard...

I guarantee if the races were reversed in this case it'd be maximum sentences.

Sombra corp? Does Tet corporation know you're posting here?

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lbhate3feb03,0,2245473.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Would this be a double standard in your estimation?
maybe a 1/2 standard...

I guarantee if the races were reversed in this case it'd be maximum sentences.
It was Juvy Court. What do you expect? 25 to life?

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lbhate3feb03,0,2245473.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Would this be a double standard in your estimation?
maybe a 1/2 standard...

I guarantee if the races were reversed in this case it'd be maximum sentences.

If Joe Blow the white guy did it, he'd get at least two years. Fucking double-edged sword...

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lbhate3feb03,0,2245473.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Would this be a double standard in your estimation?
maybe a 1/2 standard...

I guarantee if the races were reversed in this case it'd be maximum sentences.

And there is always a black celebration whenever some black criminals "stick it to the man" by not getting the maximum sentence. I don't see any white people parties whenever a white guy doesn't get the maximum sentence.

And look at what the parents said. They either don't care or are too busy working to get involved in their childrens' lives and then believe they are sweet little angels and capable of no wrong. That decision was a fucking mockery of justice and needs to be appealed. All of those involved in the attack need to be sent off to a rehabilitation camp to deal with obviously racist tendencies that are only going to end up fostered with this shit.

The blacks involved did about three months in juvenile. They weren't released to their families for one month prior to the trial or for the two months of the trial. Time served plus probation plus community service sounds about right for this. I do agree that if a white mob had done this to black kids there would be serious time handed out.

So it seems justice isn't blind after all, or is it...

If by "sounds about right" you mean a seriously lacking punishment for a group charged with assault with hate crime and inflicting bodily harm enhancements.

So it seems justice isn't blind after all, or is it...
Justice is only as blind as the reelection cycle.

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2007-01/27585089.jpg

On a side note: Is that guy in the background for real or straight out of the matrix?

Hate crimes are bogus. It's just a silly concept.

That said, as teh Nazz pointed out, it was juvy court, so you couldn't expect a harsh sentence in any case, regardless of the underlying crime.

I do think that part of juvy court should be taking the kids away from them parents though.

If by "sounds about right" you mean a seriously lacking punishment for a group charged with assault with hate crime and inflicting bodily harm enhancements.


Justice is only as blind as the reelection cycle.

Unless something has changed or I've simply misunderstood the reach of family Court these many years, the judge's hands were somewhat tied in a couple of the cases--the kids turned 18 during the trial. You can't sentence an adult to juvy jail once they're over 18, and Family Court can't sentence them to adult jail. If you want to bitch at someone over that, bitch at the prosecutor who sent this to family court instead of regular court.

If by "sounds about right" you mean a seriously lacking punishment for a group charged with assault with hate crime and inflicting bodily harm enhancements.


Justice is only as blind as the reelection cycle.

Assault isn't all that bad. I can assault someone by pushing him. As for the bodily harm thing, how much harm was inflicted? I don't know. The article didn't say. Most folks can't hit worth a shit. Since these were teens, I suspect they didn't know how to inflict real damage. They did three months during and before the trial, got probation and community service afterward. Yeah, sounds about right to me.

Assault isn't all that bad. I can assault someone by pushing him. As for the bodily harm thing, how much harm was inflicted? I don't know. The article didn't say. Most folks can't hit worth a shit. Since these were teens, I suspect they didn't know how to inflict real damage. They did three months during and before the trial, got probation and community service afterward. Yeah, sounds about right to me.

One of the victims parents said that her daughter was getting facial reconstructive surgery and one woman was hit while unconsious. Sounds pretty damaging to me. Further, you know that if a group of whites did this against black women, the attackers would be looking at jail time. This is a ridiculous sentence. Juveniles or not, these teens attacked three women. They deserved a stricter sentence. What the prosecutor asked for at least.

One of the victims parents said that her daughter was getting facial reconstructive surgery and one woman was hit while unconsious. Sounds pretty damaging to me. You know that if a group of whites did this they would be looking at jail time. This is a ridiculous sentence. Juveniles or not, these teens attacked three women. They deserved a stricter sentence. What the prosecutor asked for at least.

I didn't see that. If they fucked the women up that badly, yeah, they deserved more time. Hopefully the women will be able to bring civil suits against the families.

They should punish the crime and not the motive.

Whether the motive was 'hate' or simply financial gain is irrelevant.

Just out of curiosity, why is everyone so certain that white people in this situation would have been hosed in the sentencing? It's not like black defendants ever get lighter time in any other criminal situation--they spend more time per crime in jail than any other group. Whites are more likely to get sentenced to rehab in drug cases, and to suspended sentences and probation in other criminal proceedings than any other racial group.

Just out of curiosity, why is everyone so certain that white people in this situation would have been hosed in the sentencing? It's not like black defendants ever get lighter time in any other criminal situation--they spend more time per crime in jail than any other group. Whites are more likely to get sentenced to rehab in drug cases, and to suspended sentences and probation in other criminal proceedings than any other racial group.

Yeah, but once the "hate crime" thing is applied I think white judges have a tendency to hand out heavier punishment to demonstrate that they don't approve of racism.

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2007-01/27585089.jpg

On a side note: Is that guy in the background for real or straight out of the matrix?

Oh shit, David Duchovny is an agent!

why wasnt this tried in adult court, anyway?

Just out of curiosity, why is everyone so certain that white people in this situation would have been hosed in the sentencing? It's not like black defendants ever get lighter time in any other criminal situation--they spend more time per crime in jail than any other group. Whites are more likely to get sentenced to rehab in drug cases, and to suspended sentences and probation in other criminal proceedings than any other racial group.

It's true, black men do get the shaft in the criminal justice system. I think that is more a function of socio-economics than structural racism though.

On the other hand, women get virtually a free ride. So it all evens out.

Yeah, but once the "hate crime" thing is applied I think white judges have a tendency to hand out heavier punishment to demonstrate that they don't approve of racism.

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/incarceration/

And by the way, where did the opening poster go? I smell a drive-by racist.

On the other hand, women get virtually a free ride. So it all evens out.

Except when they kill their bastard of a husband who beats on her. I understand courts like to really go after the battered wife when she kills the bastard who hurts her. Can't have women thinking they can escape abuse by killing thier abuser I guess.

Except when they kill their bastard of a husband who beats on her. I understand courts like to really go after the battered wife when she kills the bastard who hurts her. Can't have women thinking they can escape abuse by killing thier abuser I guess.

That would explain why the vast majority of the prison population is female. :rolleyes:

You sound as silly as the OP.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lbhate3feb03,0,2245473.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Would this be a double standard in your estimation?
maybe a 1/2 standard...

I guarantee if the races were reversed in this case it'd be maximum sentences.

This makes me sick. These type of decisions will increase racism.

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3066/victim1og6.jpg


Victims speak in Long Beach hate-crime case
Three white women beaten by black youths on Halloween urge harsh penalties and tell the judge of physical and psychological wounds.
By Joe Mozingo, Times Staff Writer
February 1, 2007

Three white women beaten by a black mob in Long Beach told a court they were physically and emotionally devastated and asked the judge to give "the harshest punishment possible" to nine minors convicted last week for the Halloween attack.

The trio — Loren Hyman, 21, and Laura Schneider and Michelle Smith, both 19 — sobbed through much of their statements, saying they did nothing to provoke the beating and have been scared to leave their homes ever since.

"I hope they're still in jail when our injuries are finally healed," Schneider said.

Hyman, who sustained multiple fractures in her nose and around her eye, is scheduled to have 4 1/2 -hour facial reconstruction surgery Friday. "Perhaps the only thing worse than suffering 13 facial fractures was seeing my friend Laura lying on the ground lifeless," she said.

Judge Gibson Lee listened intently to the accounts, which he will consider when he begins sentencing hearings Friday.

Defense attorneys said Wednesday they had been told that prosecutors would not seek time in the California Youth Authority for the juveniles, which would have been the maximum penalty possible. None of the minors have criminal records, though one has been accused of battery in an unrelated case.

The Los Angeles County Probation Department has recommended that they spend six to nine months in youth camp, the lawyers said.

According to testimony in the seven-week trial, as many as 30 black youths took part in the assault on a street in the well-to-do Bixby Knolls area, which has long attracted crowds with its elaborate Halloween displays.

Witnesses said someone in the mob yelled a racial slur and one black youth smashed a woman in the face with a skateboard. Two other black youths are scheduled to go on trial later in connection with the beatings.

The juveniles on trial claimed that a group of black males wearing black hooded sweatshirts attacked the women. In a tape of a 911 call, a neighbor described the culprits as males in black sweatshirts.

But several defense attorneys have expressed frustration that none of the minors on trial admitted any involvement in the melee.

Defendants who had been in the scrum could have pointed out who was not involved, the lawyers said. Instead, by closing ranks, they perpetuated the sense that the 10 were on trial as a group, not individuals.

"It seems at some point it would be helpful if someone would come forward and say what really happened that night," said attorney Jack A. Fuller, who represents a 14-year-old girl. "The evidence shows that some were probably involved. But the evidence was clear that not all were involved."

The minor often cited as not having participated was Allyson Stone, now 18, who was accused of punching and stomping on two women as they fell on a lawn.

Her friends told police she was in her car the whole time because her religion prohibited her from trick-or-treating. And Stone's attorney showed the court her crisp, white tennis shoes from that night — with not a scuff, grass stain or trace of blood on them.

"My client's heart goes out to the victims," said Stone's lawyer, Darrell Goss. "She is disgusted that anyone would ever do that to any human being. But she was not involved. She was in her car."

Another defense attorney, Frank Williams Jr., called the victim statements "heart-wrenching."

"Any human being would feel compassion for them," he said.

Hyman, who was the only victim to testify during the trial, told the court Wednesday that it was particularly shocking to be the target of a racial attack.

She said she is Latina and Jewish and joined a diversity council in high school after skinheads published an anti-Semitic item in the student newspaper. Her high school sweetheart, she said, was Nigerian.

"I couldn't believe my ears when I heard them yell 'I hate … white people!' " she said.

Hyman said she is a photography student who has shown her work at the Los Angeles County Art Museum and won some awards. But she has not attended classes since Halloween, she told the court, and fears that she may not be able to pursue her dream of becoming a working photographer because of the beating, which left an eye recessed four millimeters and upset her equilibrium.

Emotionally, she said, she is a mess. Depressed and anxious, she said she doesn't sleep well and is afraid to leave her home — and is scared even there. "We are in constant fear from the families and any gang member friends they might have," she said.

Some of the minors' relatives groaned at the comment. The defendants, who are mostly good students and involved in sports, have denied any gang affiliation.

Schneider said she has recurring nightmares and now sleeps with her mother. And she said she was dismayed by people who tried to characterize the violence as a fight.

"This was no fight. We tried to run away," Schneider said. "We didn't want trouble. In return, they beat us within inches of our lives. I can't tell you what it did to me to see people get such pleasure in hurting us."

Smith and Schneider said they were suffering post-traumatic stress syndrome.

The victims said they were sure that all the minors on trial were involved in the attack.

The defendants' families have said they will appeal the convictions. If the judge sentences the youths to camp, Leo Branton, a semiretired litigator who secured an acquittal for militant black activist Angela Davis in 1972, said he plans to ask an appeals court to order the judge to release the defendants to their families pending the appeal.

Branton said that there was insufficient evidence linking the youths to the crime, and that a jury would have acquitted all of them. All juvenile trials are presided over by a judge. "This was an outrageous distortion of justice," he said.

Link (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lbhate1feb01,1,6192551.story?page=1&ctrack=1&cset=true)

That would explain why the vast majority of the prison population is female. :rolleyes:

You sound as silly as the OP.

The example I give isn't exactly common. I don't think you see hordes of women killing their husbands, now do you? Why does it have to happen alot for it to be true? You are simply overreacting.

Thats total crap. It sounds like the girls were outnumbered, and since i didnt see any mention of aggrivation im assuming it was an unprovoked attack. Im probably being extremely racist here, but im willing to bet that if the positions were reversed, black communities everywhere would be up in arms about another obviously racist decision on the part of the courts, and its possible that thier influence would affect the decision in appeals. But im willing to bet that the white community is too scared of appearing racist to make a bunch of demonstrations and press statements, so pressure will either be nonexistent or more likely, (and im white so i can say this) in true white style, under the table.

This makes me sick. These type of decisions will increase racism.

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3066/victim1og6.jpg


Link (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lbhate1feb01,1,6192551.story?page=1&ctrack=1&cset=true)

Sounds to me like prosecutors were going to have problems convicting individual members of harsher crimes, so they got what they could.

"Any human being would feel compassion for them," he said.
Except of course for the douchebags who did it then claimed no involvement.

Im probably being extremely racist here, but im willing to bet that if the positions were reversed, black communities everywhere would be up in arms about another obviously racist decision on the part of the courts,
That's an understatement. There would be race riots all over Long Beach, if not all over the country.

Yeah, a bunch of white kids got their asses beat and whine up a storm. They now have about 1% of the experience of what it has meant to be black in this country. Perhaps now they'll take racism more seriously and work to rid our society of it.

Yeah, a bunch of black kids are racist assholes for what they did, and they have failed miserably to learn from the painful lessons of the past that teach us the immense suffering that can be caused by racial violence.

I have compassion for both of them because I've been the target of racism and violence myself, but frankly, I don't have much respect for either of them.

Sounds to me like prosecutors were going to have problems convicting individual members of harsher crimes, so they got what they could.

Problems...Because they were black. These were the involved ones.

Yeah, a bunch of white kids got their asses beat and whine up a storm. They now have about 1% of the experience of what it has meant to be black in this country.
Are you then asserting that those black kids had been beaten by white gangs before? And then, are you asserting that whether or not those black kids had been beaten personally, the fact that people have been before somewhere justifies their actions? You deserve to be in jail with them.

Perhaps now they'll take racism more seriously and work to rid our society of it.
Oh, you mean the half-Jewish, half-Hispanic girl on the school's diversity council?

Yeah, a bunch of black kids are racist assholes for what they did, and they have failed miserably to learn from the painful lessons of the past that teach us the immense suffering that can be caused by racial violence.
Yet you are justifying and excusing their actions.

I have compassion for both of them because I've been the target of racism and violence myself, but frankly, I don't have much respect for either of them.
Then I pity you for you have learned even less than they have.

Problems...Because they were black. These were the involved ones.

No--problems because there were no witnesses as to who actually did the beatdowns of the individual women, and without that, there's no way to get above assault to a crime with a higher penalty.

And by the way, where did the opening poster go? I smell a drive-by racist.

Well, I just happened to not be at my computer for about an hour...:eek:

Seriously...assaulting a group a females of any age/race is an indication of pretty shabby character and people who do so ought to be made examples of.

The fact that it was a black on white crime is salt in the wound, because of all the attention that is given to white on black crimes, and how those offenders are always made examples of.

This sentence sends the message to pissed off racist black youths that there will not be serious repurcussions for acting out their hatred.

Yeah, a bunch of white kids got their asses beat and whine up a storm.


Your sense of justice is pathetic.


They now have about 1% of the experience of what it has meant to be black in this country. Perhaps now they'll take racism more seriously and work to rid our society of it.


I think you have displayed racism above. How will you rid yourself of it? By lecturing others?


Yeah, a bunch of black kids are racist assholes for what they did, and they have failed miserably to learn from the painful lessons of the past that teach us the immense suffering that can be caused by racial violence.


How can they learn when people like you say their victims were just "whining"? I wouldnt call "4 1/2 -hour facial reconstruction surgery" "whining".


I have compassion for both of them because I've been the target of racism and violence myself, but frankly, I don't have much respect for either of them.

I dont have neither compassion nor respect for you.

No--problems because there were no witnesses as to who actually did the beatdowns of the individual women, and without that, there's no way to get above assault to a crime with a higher penalty.

There were:

Link (http://card.wordpress.com/2007/02/01/hate-crime-victims-in-long-beach-halloween-beating-address-court/)

You actually believe the defense lawyer?

Yet you are justifying and excusing their actions.

Nice assumption, but nope. I'm expressing disgust at all involved. You can read whatever you want into my statements (and obviously have), and make arguments based on that, but it's just going to be an attack on a straw man.

Then I pity you for you have learned even less than they have.

*gives Pants his pity back*

You need it more than I do, friend.

And by the way, where did the opening poster go? I smell a drive-by racist.

Would you say that if s/he posted a story about blacks being beaten?

Except of course for the douchebags who did it then claimed no involvement.


That's an understatement. There would be race riots all over Long Beach, if not all over the country.

Exactly.

Would you say that if s/he posted a story about blacks being beaten?

Depends on whether or not the poster did it with the tone of "OMG! The Nigraz got what they deserved!" and then didn't post again. Context is everything, kid.

Nice assumption, but nope.
No, huh? You start your post by insulting and belittling the victims, then go onto assert that the black people that beat them up themselves had been victims of a similar situation in reverse. Then you belittle the victims further.
You finally get around to admitting disdain for the attackers, but then go back half-way on that by making an allusion to the assertion that they have experienced the same thing they committed on other people.

Sounds like you are excusing and justifying their actions to me.

I'm expressing disgust at all involved.
Yeah, those poor disgusting victims, just inviting the race influenced attacks on them just by being mostly white and thusly, somehow, having committed an inherent racist attack against the attackers and all other black people.

You need to see a therapist about your misdirected anger issue.

*gives Pants his pity back*

You need it more than I do, friend.
I pity you and all people like you - hypocritical black racists. And in fact, I pity you more so than the rest because you obviously learned nothing but hate and resentment for all white people and it has eroded away at your morals and common decency when it comes to white people.

I think you have displayed racism above. How will you rid yourself of it? By lecturing others?

You read racism into my statements because you want it to be there.

How can they learn when people like you say their victims were just "whining"? I wouldnt call "4 1/2 -hour facial reconstruction surgery" "whining".

I wouldn't either. I would call the overall response by the victims and their families whining, however. I would also call the beating that was administered to them cruel and stupid. Are you okay with me characterizing the actions of everybody involved as bad, or does that make me a racist somehow? At worst, it's an oversimplification, not racism.

I dont have neither compassion nor respect for you.

How unfortunate.

You read racism into my statements because you want it to be there.
Horseshit. Your very statements give you away as a racist, not quite as much as The blessed Chris, but the intention is there.

I wouldn't either. I would call the overall response by the victims and their families whining, however.
Here for example. Four women are gang attacked by a number of teenagers with improvised weapons and were injured to the point such that one has a concussion and another is requiring facial reconstruction. Yet you sit there and say they are whining about the fact that the attackers didn't get the maximum possible sentence from an inherently slap-on-the-wrist court. And besides that, you earlier imply they got what they deserved by saying they "now have about 1% of the experience of what it has meant to be black in this country."

I would also call the beating that was administered to them cruel and stupid. Are you okay with me characterizing the actions of everybody involved as bad, or does that make me a racist somehow?
Hmm, do I consider categorizing the actions of everyone involved bad a racist statement? That depends, define everybody.

People like you are just as responsible for racism as The blessed Chris.

You read racism into my statements because you want it to be there.

Dont be ridiculous.


Yeah, a bunch of white kids got their asses beat and whine up a storm.


Besides the problem of you calling their response "whining", "a bunch of white kids got their asses beat" is also a huge understatement. Would you call a raped women, she got her ass beat? Serious cases of violence shouldnt be oversimplified like that.


I wouldn't either. I would call the overall response by the victims and their families whining, however.


So, sueing the violent racist criminals is "whining"? You are being either racist or silly.


I would also call the beating that was administered to them cruel and stupid.


This isnt what you implied by this:


Yeah, a bunch of white kids got their asses beat and whine up a storm.


You may have worded your opinions incorrectly or insufficiently. But that MAY (or may not) be the result of some of the thoughts in your sub-consciousness. In all cases, your initial response was incredibly poor, especially considering you are an admin here.


Are you okay with me characterizing the actions of everybody involved as bad, or does that make me a racist somehow? At worst, it's an oversimplification, not racism.


At worst, it's racist and moronic. What has the victims done which would be called "bad"?

No, huh? You start your post by insulting and belittling the victims, then go onto assert that the black people that beat them up themselves had been victims of a similar situation in reverse. Then you belittle the victims further.

You finally get around to admitting disdain for the attackers, but then go back half-way on that by making an allusion to the assertion that they have experienced the same thing they committed on other people.

Sounds like you are excusing and justifying their actions to me.

Sounds like you're reading what you wanted to read in my post and ignoring what you don't want to be there. Not much I can do about that.

I pity you and all people like you - hypocritical black racists. And in fact, I pity you more so than the rest because you obviously learned nothing but hate and resentment for all white people and it has eroded away at your morals and common decency when it comes to white people.

Oh now that's truly a rousing attack on a hypocritical black racist. Thank you for making me laugh. :)

Sounds like you're reading what you wanted to read in my post and ignoring what you don't want to be there. Not much I can do about that.
You realize your choice of words lends itself to a negative interpretation?

And while I saw your bullshit about how you are, again, supposedly not a racist (that's what The blessed Chris says too), I didn't see where you defined "everybody" in the context of your statement.

.....And besides that, you earlier imply they got what they deserved by saying they "now have about 1% of the experience of what it has meant to be black in this country."....

Exactly, besides his oversimplification of whole violence, his unreasonably disapproval of the response of the victims, he certainly meant something like "this is nothing compared to what blacks have to suffer"?

Yeah, there are inequalities towards blacks but do they suffer such racist attacks at present? Like a mob beating them FOR NO FUCKING REASON?
And if they indeed encouter such violence, whole USA would be talking it now and the judge would give the maximum sentence and politicians would start campaign against racism and god knows what more....

And, in this forums, if someone said "those black kids got their asses beat and whine up a storm", s/he'd be called the TROLL OF CENTURY and flamed like hell.

Yeah, there are inequalities towards blacks but do they suffer such racist attacks at present? Like a mob beating them FOR NO FUCKING REASON?
And if they indeed encouter such violence, whole USA would be talking it now and the judge would give the maximum sentence and politicians would start campaign against racism and god knows what more....
No, it still happens and there is no shitstorm because people are jaded to it and the older people are racists, like our friend here. But the insertion that it has happened to these kids because they are black is simply false. And the fact that it has happened to people elsewhere does not excuse their attack nor does it mean that white people deserve the same shit, despite what the racist thinks. His personal experiences with racism has blinded him to his apparent racism towards white people and has obviously affected his morals and delved him into the same pit as the people who committed racism against him. Unless he can get his shit together, he is no better than they are.

No, it still happens....

Does it? Can you find a similar story in the last 5 years?

I dont follow much news, but I dont remember black kids being beaten for no reason (usually there is another factor like alcohol, or an argument from something else which leads to racist slurs and fighting...) in Canada, ever in my life...

Dont be ridiculous.

You first.

Besides whining, "a bunch of white kids got their asses beat" is also a huge understatement. Would you call a raped women, she got her ass beat? Serious cases of violence shouldnt be oversimplified like that.

That's a valid objection. I did indeed oversimplify, and it was wrong.

So, sueing the violent racist criminals is "whining"? You are being either racist or silly.

Now who's oversimplifying? Read both the articles that were posted. The victims and their families didn't just sue. They wanted the greatest sentence possible, were making an issue out of the fact that they were afraid that the black kids would have friends who were gang members, etc.

You may have worded your opinions incorrectly or insufficiently. But that MAY (or may not) be the result of some of the thoughts in your sub-consciousness. In all cases, your initial response was incredibly poor, especially considering you are an admin here.

My position (which is a Moderator position, not an Admin position) is about as irrelevant to this debate as it could possibly be. So why bring it up?

At worst, it's racist and moronic. What has the victims done which would be called "bad"?

Ignoring (with the exception of the Jewish Latino girl) a few hundred years of violent oppression and institutionalized racism. Bringing their prejudices into court and assuming the black kids would have friends in gangs. Thinking that other people deserve greater punishment because *they* were the victims and not some random black kid they'll never know the name of. Sure, it's just a little racism. But I'm not a real big fan of racism.

And yes, I'll admit to being racist too. Just not in the way you think I am. I'm racist because I still think of people as "black" or "white". I still devalue their individuality by applying those labels, perpetuate the lie that race really makes a big difference, that it means something significant apart from culture. Maybe after many, many years I can rid myself of that. Maybe not. But I'll certainly try.

I dont follow much news, but I dont remember black kids being beaten for no reason (usually there is another factor like alcohol, or an argument from something else which leads to racist slurs and fighting...) in Canada, ever in my life...
We arn't talking about Canada. You find me Long Beach, Canada and I will find you a white hate crime against black kids.

They wanted the greatest sentence possible,
From an inherently slap-on-the-wrist court. The maximum possible sentence was *drumroll* an unspecified amount of time in juvi. One victims requires facial reconstruction and another suffers from a recessed eye and what sounds like an inner ear problem resulting from injuries.


Ignoring (with the exception of the Jewish Latino girl) a few hundred years of violent oppression and institutionalized racism.
So you again imply that the attackers were personally the victims of racism and of the kind of attack perpetuated against these women?

Bringing their prejudices into court and assuming the black kids would have friends in gangs.
Yeah, it's not like it was a gang attack or anything and the defendants refused to separate themselves from the group. No way anyone could logically come to the conclusion that they had gang associations, it was just because they were black. Horseshit.

But I'm not a real big fan of racism.
So you have some image issues then?


Maybe not. But I'll certainly try.
I have some advice - try harder.


PS. I havn't seen you define "everybody" yet.

The example I give isn't exactly common. I don't think you see hordes of women killing their husbands, now do you? Why does it have to happen alot for it to be true? You are simply overreacting.

No. And nor is black people being charged with hate crimes exaclty 'common' either. (Or any hate crime either).

I am simply pointing out that if there are any structural biases in the justice system, they aren't along racial lines.

We arn't talking about Canada. You find me Long Beach, Canada and I will find you a white hate crime against black kids.


I know. I was just giving an example from my personal experience. Try to provide a case of racist violence, in which there was no reason to attack, in USA, when you have time...

No, no, you misunderstand: Straight White Males are the only people who can perpertate hate crime. Duuuh...

Idiots.

Before getting your panties in a wad about a racist verdict, did any of you actually read the story?

The defendants have already served almost 3 month in jail. They got that time served, plus 60 days house arrest, probation, and 250 hours of community service. (I think this is light, but it is hardly a slap on the wrist).

The reason the sentences seem relatively light is BECAUSE THEY WERE IN JUVENILE COURT and had no prior criminal record!!!!!

As the story cited explains (emphasis added):

But juvenile law experts say probation is common for youths with no criminal records.

"The whole idea is not to simply throw people into the criminal justice system," said Daniel Macallair, executive director of the Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice in San Francisco. "The purpose of the juvenile justice system is not retribution; it's not even punishment. It's still rehabilitation."

Judges are expected to give the least restrictive sentence that would rehabilitate the minor, while protecting public safety, ratcheting up penalties only if initial discipline doesn't work.

"A tenet of the juvenile system is to give a graduated response to the child acting out," said Cyn Yamashiro, a professor at Loyola Law School and director of its Center for Juvenile Law and Policy.

The defendants did not just get a slap on the wrist, nor is there any evidence whatsoever that racism played a part in their sentence. That is just a product of your fevered imaginations.

No, no, you misunderstand: Straight White Males are the only people who can perpertate hate crime. Duuuh...

Try to keep up with the rest of the class. 8 of the black defendants here were convicted of a hate crime.

The defendants did not just get a slap on the wrist, nor is there any evidence whatsoever that racism played a part in their sentence. That is just a product of your fevered imaginations.
It played a part in the attacks not the sentence.

Try to keep up with the rest of the class. 8 of the black defendants here were convicted of a hate crime.
He is keeping up in class but you are obviously in a different period because in skipping to the last page you have missed the racist crap by HotRodia.

Does it? Can you find a similar story in the last 5 years?

I dont follow much news, but I dont remember black kids being beaten for no reason (usually there is another factor like alcohol, or an argument from something else which leads to racist slurs and fighting...) in Canada, ever in my life...

2005 Hate crime statistics (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2005/victims.htm):

Among the single-bias hate crime incidents in 2005, there were 4,895 victims of racially motivated hate crime.

67.9 percent were victims of an anti-black bias.
19.9 percent were victims of an anti-white bias.

So, yes, blacks are still victims of hate crimes. And so are whites.

2005 Hate crime statistics (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2005/victims.htm):

Among the single-bias hate crime incidents in 2005, there were 4,895 victims of racially motivated hate crime.

67.9 percent were victims of an anti-black bias.
19.9 percent were victims of an anti-white bias.

So, yes, blacks are still victims of hate crimes. And so are whites.

Irrelevant.

X and Y watch football and start arguing about teams. X calls Y "N..." and beats Y. Y is called a victim of anti-black bias.

I was asking for a case in which there is NO reason for violence and people just beat strangers because they "hate black people".

I

It played a part in the attacks not the sentence.

No duh that the hate crime involved racism. :headbang:

But you and others have implied that the defendants received lesser sentences because the crime was black-on-white, rather than the other way around. For that assertion, you have no evidence.


He is keeping up in class but you are obviously in a different period because in skipping to the last page you have missed the racist crap by HotRodia.

I've read everything said so far. I think HotRodia stepped over the line, but thought that was less important to counter than the chorus of "OMG the blacks got away with a hate crime" bullshit.

Irrelevant.

X and Y watch football and start arguing about teams. X calls Y "N..." and beats Y. Y is called a victim of anti-black bias.

I was asking for a case in which there is NO reason for violence and people just beat strangers because they "hate black people".

I

Um. I'm supposed to look up every one of the almost 5,000 race-based hate crimes because of your ignorance?

You are the one that keeps claiming a similar case would lead to harsher treatment if the perpetrators were black. Why don't you find such an example, then?

But you and others have implied that the defendants received lesser sentences because the crime was black-on-white, rather than the other way around. For that assertion, you have no evidence.
No more evidence than the assertion that it was a black-on-white crime had nothing to do with the light sentence.

I've read everything said so far. I think HotRodia stepped over the line, but thought that was less important to counter than the chorus of "OMG the blacks got away with a hate crime" bullshit.
No, they got away with leaving one girl needing facial reconstruction and a couple others with not insignificant head injuries. Group dynamics be damned and bag everyone directly involved in the attack. If they all group together and refuse to admit even one of them was involved in the attack at all, then hang 'em all.

Um. I'm supposed to look up every one of the almost 5,000 race-based hate crimes because of your ignorance?

You are the one that keeps claiming a similar case would lead to harsher treatment if the perpetrators were black. Why don't you find such an example, then?

Am I supposed to explain myself three times because of your reading incomprehension? I asked if there is "a case in which there is NO reason for violence and people just beat strangers because they "hate black people"." How can I find something if it doesnt exist?

And the question wasnt to you. You just jumped it with wrong answer.

Exactly, besides his oversimplification of whole violence, his unreasonably disapproval of the response of the victims, he certainly meant something like "this is nothing compared to what blacks have to suffer"?

Yeah, there are inequalities towards blacks but do they suffer such racist attacks at present? Like a mob beating them FOR NO FUCKING REASON?
And if they indeed encouter such violence, whole USA would be talking it now and the judge would give the maximum sentence and politicians would start campaign against racism and god knows what more....

And, in this forums, if someone said "those black kids got their asses beat and whine up a storm", s/he'd be called the TROLL OF CENTURY and flamed like hell.

Your last point is valid. HotRodia's comments were wrong.

But that doesn't excuse you closing your eyes to the fact that there are in fact real hate crime perpetuated against blacks in far greater proportion than such crimes are committed against whites.

Your last point is valid. HotRodia's comments were wrong.

But that doesn't excuse you closing your eyes to the fact that there are in fact real hate crime perpetuated against blacks in far greater proportion than such crimes are committed against whites.

You are still assuming that hate crimes are all same. If a white guy punches a black guy once, that's a hate crime. It is wrong. But it is less severe than causing a stranger girl to undergo 4 hour facial surgery.
So nothing excuses you of ignoring the difference in magnitude of different racial attacks AND just look at the numbers.

They should've been put to death.

Idiots.

Before getting your panties in a wad about a racist verdict, did any of you actually read the story?

The defendants have already served almost 3 month in jail. They got that time served, plus 60 days house arrest, probation, and 250 hours of community service. (I think this is light, but it is hardly a slap on the wrist).

The reason the sentences seem relatively light is BECAUSE THEY WERE IN JUVENILE COURT and had no prior criminal record!!!!!

As the story cited explains (emphasis added):

But juvenile law experts say probation is common for youths with no criminal records.

"The whole idea is not to simply throw people into the criminal justice system," said Daniel Macallair, executive director of the Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice in San Francisco. "The purpose of the juvenile justice system is not retribution; it's not even punishment. It's still rehabilitation."

Judges are expected to give the least restrictive sentence that would rehabilitate the minor, while protecting public safety, ratcheting up penalties only if initial discipline doesn't work.

"A tenet of the juvenile system is to give a graduated response to the child acting out," said Cyn Yamashiro, a professor at Loyola Law School and director of its Center for Juvenile Law and Policy.

The defendants did not just get a slap on the wrist, nor is there any evidence whatsoever that racism played a part in their sentence. That is just a product of your fevered imaginations.

You are being silly.

But juvenile law experts say probation is common for youths with no criminal records.

Common but not always. And we dont know if it is common for youths who are convicted of hate crimes as well. It just says it is common for youths in general. You havent disproven anything.

Assault isn't all that bad. I can assault someone by pushing him. As for the bodily harm thing, how much harm was inflicted? I don't know. The article didn't say. Most folks can't hit worth a shit. Since these were teens, I suspect they didn't know how to inflict real damage. They did three months during and before the trial, got probation and community service afterward. Yeah, sounds about right to me.
Well, it does say that one of the victims was getting re-constructive surgery, during the sentencing, to her face for multiple fractures in her nose and around her eye from the beatings. So it sounds a tad worse than a push-and-shove.

To the OP demanding maximum sentences - the article states that the maximum allowed is nine months (270 days) in camp.
They'd already spent 95 days in custody. Add in the 250 hours community service, 60 days home arrest and having to attend an 8 week racial tolerance course and you have a pretty severe sentence in relation to the maximum allowed.

Of course whether the maximum allowed is adequate is an entirely different matter...

You are still assuming that hate crimes are all same. If a white guy punches a black guy once, that's a hate crime. It is wrong. But it is less severe than causing a stranger girl to undergo 4 hour facial surgery.
So nothing excuses you of ignoring the difference in magnitude of different racial attacks AND just look at the numbers.

Actually, you are illustrating your own ignorance of the relevant law.

A hate crime is specific offense in addition to any assault. As you say, both a single punch and a severe beating are both hate crimes. But the underlying assault is what differs in severity -- and that is accounted for by a different underlying crime (such as simple assault versus aggravated battery).

It is exceedingly curious that you assume that crimes against blacks have been trivial.

Are you familiar with the case of James Byrd, Jr., in Jasper, Texas? That was an unprovoked assault because the victim was black. Three men kidnapped the victim, beat him unconscious, chained him to the bumper of a pickup and dragged him 3 1/2 miles to his death.

That judge didnt have any guts.

And there is always a black celebration whenever some black criminals "stick it to the man" by not getting the maximum sentence. I don't see any white people parties whenever a white guy doesn't get the maximum sentence.

You weren't here when Robert Blake was acquitted. I was all: :) .

No more evidence than the assertion that it was a black-on-white crime had nothing to do with the light sentence.

Except that the light sentence is fully explained by the fact that the defendants are juveniles.


No, they got away with leaving one girl needing facial reconstruction and a couple others with not insignificant head injuries. Group dynamics be damned and bag everyone directly involved in the attack. If they all group together and refuse to admit even one of them was involved in the attack at all, then hang 'em all.

Hanging?

Your hyperbole is running away from you.

Except that the light sentence is fully explained by the fact that the defendants are juveniles.
That would be valid except for the fact juveniles younger than these people have been charged as adults before and the sentence could have been harsher.


Hanging?

Your hyperbole is running away from you.
It's called a "figure of speech," look it up.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lbhate3feb03,0,2245473.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Would this be a double standard in your estimation?
maybe a 1/2 standard...

I guarantee if the races were reversed in this case it'd be maximum sentences.

The mobs and gangs give Hispanics and Blacks a bad name. Note that they were house arrested for "mob beatings" I read about other articles where gangs would kill random people just because of their ethnicy. If gangs want to go nazi on us on OUR land I think that the US gov should go Patton on them and overkill them. Organizations don't have a right to start a holocaust especially when the soil they're doing it on isn't theirs.

I guarantee if the races were reversed in this case it'd be maximum sentences.

So that's where this is going to go. *leaves*

Idiots.

Before getting your panties in a wad about a racist verdict, did any of you actually read the story?

The defendants have already served almost 3 month in jail. They got that time served, plus 60 days house arrest, probation, and 250 hours of community service. (I think this is light, but it is hardly a slap on the wrist).

The reason the sentences seem relatively light is BECAUSE THEY WERE IN JUVENILE COURT and had no prior criminal record!!!!!

As the story cited explains (emphasis added):

But juvenile law experts say probation is common for youths with no criminal records.

"The whole idea is not to simply throw people into the criminal justice system," said Daniel Macallair, executive director of the Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice in San Francisco. "The purpose of the juvenile justice system is not retribution; it's not even punishment. It's still rehabilitation."

Judges are expected to give the least restrictive sentence that would rehabilitate the minor, while protecting public safety, ratcheting up penalties only if initial discipline doesn't work.

"A tenet of the juvenile system is to give a graduated response to the child acting out," said Cyn Yamashiro, a professor at Loyola Law School and director of its Center for Juvenile Law and Policy.

The defendants did not just get a slap on the wrist, nor is there any evidence whatsoever that racism played a part in their sentence. That is just a product of your fevered imaginations.

Welcome back. We've missed you. ;)

Except that the light sentence is fully explained by the fact that the defendants are juveniles.
A violent crime is a violent crime. These young people need rehabilitation. I don’t blame the judge for his hands being tied. I blame the system.

Your last point is valid. HotRodia's comments were wrong.

Indeed they were. But the funny thing is, they were wrong because I was trivializing the violence, both present and past, done by both white and black folks against each other. Not because there was a pro-black bias in my comments as Pants was alleging.

My African-American Studies professor would have had a good laugh over anyone suggesting a pro-black or anti-white racial discrimination on my part, given my strong opposition to Affirmative Action and complaints about many elements of African-American culture, and I have to laugh at it too. It's just silly.

A violent crime is a violent crime. These young people need rehabilitation. I don’t blame the judge for his hands being tied. I blame the system.

As I understood it, more and more often juveniles are getting sentences that favor more towards punishment then rehabilitation. What with the surge in youth violence and the demand to Do Something, a zero tolerance policy is now being encouraged. Not very many people want to give juveniles second chances when they commit violent crimes and it is hard to fault this feeling. I see this case and the political factors circling around it and I have to wonder what outside pressures brought about this light sentence.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lbhate3feb03,0,2245473.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Would this be a double standard in your estimation?
maybe a 1/2 standard...
Not really, but this is strongly correlated to my opinion that the US justice systems lacks anything that resembles an appropriately and consistently applied standard.

I guarantee if the races were reversed in this case it'd be maximum sentences.
I'd be more inclined to suggest that in some cases where the races were reversed, and in some cases where they were not, that it'd be maximum sentences, in other such cases minimum and in others something in between, all apparently without any fair and consistently applied standard being adhered to.

Yeah, a bunch of white kids got their asses beat and whine up a storm. They now have about 1% of the experience of what it has meant to be black in this country. Perhaps now they'll take racism more seriously and work to rid our society of it.
What a ridiculous comment. I'd be just as appalled if you said the same thing substituting 'males' for 'white kids', 'rape' for 'arses beat', 'what it means to be female in this country' for 'what it means to be black in this country' and 'perhaps now they'll take sexism more seriously' for 'perhaps now they'll take racism more seriously'. What I wonder is if you'd find the same sentiment appalling when the described substitutions are made. In other words just how far gone are you?
Talk about blaming the victim.


Yeah, a bunch of black kids are racist assholes for what they did, and they have failed miserably to learn from the painful lessons of the past that teach us the immense suffering that can be caused by racial violence.
A bunch of kids are arseholes for what they did, whatever colour/ethnicity they happen to be and regardless of what lessons they could, did, or didnt learn from the past.

I have compassion for both of them because I've been the target of racism and violence myself, but frankly, I don't have much respect for either of them.
I can see why the conduct of the offenders might merit an automatic suspension of some degree or other of respect, and a degree of disgust, but nothing I am aware of indicates any reason to disrespect, much less be disgusted by the victims.

As for your later, absurd claim that racisim is not a factor in the comments you made, yeah right, try replacing 'white kids' with 'black kids' in the first paragraph of your first post in this thread. The comments no longer make any sense because they rely on the victims being white. Mmmm, if the colour/ethnicity of the victims determines the comments, then the comments are racist and so is the commentor.

I would want a harsh penalty regardless of the ethnicity of the people who commited such a crime against me, I would expect that people who commit this kind of violence to have less than nice friends such as violent gang members regardless, of their ethnicity.

Women have been oppressed longer than and more pervasively than black people, they've been subjected to rape 'as a right' at the hands of their own husbands without recourse for millenia on end, this does not in any way shape or form make a male sexually assaulted or raped by a female unworthy of respect and deserving of disgust no matter how much he cried out for maximum sentences and stated that he feared the women involved had gang-associate friends that might retaliate against him.

I see no evidence that the people wanted greater punishment because it wasnt some 'random black person' as you put it. It's somewhat common for people to want harsh penalties when they are the victim, regardless who the perpetrators of the crime are. That's not racist, that's a natural reaction of someone who has been victimised, hurt, terrified, humilated and who continues to suffer the consequences of the crime commited against them.

Indeed they were. But the funny thing is, they were wrong because I was trivializing the violence, both present and past, done by both white and black folks against each other. Not because there was a pro-black bias in my comments as Pants was alleging.

My African-American Studies professor would have had a good laugh over anyone suggesting a pro-black or anti-white racial discrimination on my part, given my strong opposition to Affirmative Action and complaints about many elements of African-American culture, and I have to laugh at it too. It's just silly.

Can you guess at why I am less than impressed by the "I couldn't have meant anything racist because I hate affirmative action" defense?

None the less, I understand what you are saying and you did wrongly trivialize violence.