NationStates Jolt Archive

Yes, I know that there is a discussion on abortion going on right now in a thread, and I also know that the abortion poll has been done, but I think I have a better poll for abortion.

I personally am pro-abortion, although I would never do it myself.

A few points about the poll:

- Guys, pretend that you'd be able to be pregnant, it's not that hard to do, and then think about if you would have an abortion or not.
- Vote on your personal feelings on the matter at the current moment. You could still vote pro-abortion but would never do it, if that's what you feel, despite having had an abortion in the past.
- I named it pro-abortion and anti-abortion for a reason. I find the "pro-choice" and "pro-life" designations to be inadequate, because I am both pro-choice and pro-life. If I thought that the fetus would be life, I would oppose abortion, and of course, preserving a life is more important than a mother's right to choose what goes on with her body.*
- Also, this is in normal circumstances, for contemplating abortion. This isn't a mother's life in danger or anything.
- The pro-abortion option DOES NOT FORCE the person to have an abortion (as one crazy person thinks in the next post)

*SOME OF YOU ARE CONFUSED (or maybe just one)
If you are confused, just pretend that instead of "pro-abortion" it says "pro-choice", and instead of "anti-abortion" it says "pro-life".
Pro-abortion = pro-choice
Anti-abortion = pro-life

Problem is, I'm not "pro-abortion," I'm pro-choice. I don't believe it's any better to force women to have abortions than it is to force them not to have abortions. The issue, for me, is reproductive freedom. "Pro-abortion" and "anti-abortion" are equally vile if they conflict with the individual woman's wishes about her own body.

Problem is, I'm not "pro-abortion," I'm pro-choice. I don't believe it's any better to force women to have abortions than it is to force them not to have abortions. The issue, for me, is reproductive freedom. "Pro-abortion" and "anti-abortion" are equally vile if they conflict with the individual woman's wishes about her own body.

Since when is pro-abortion forcing the person to abort? If it were like that, then mankind would cease to exist. It doesn't make any sense.

I guess I’d abort unless by normal circumstances you mean its all planned and la la happy land in which case I would have some explaining to do

maybe I'd just get a cat instead...

Since when is pro-abortion forcing the person to abort? If it were like that, then mankind would cease to exist. It doesn't make any sense.
Yes. That's why the "pro-abortion" label makes no sense.

If a woman doesn't want to have an abortion, then I am "anti-abortion" in her case. If a woman wants to have an abortion, then I am "pro-abortion" in her case. I support the individual right to make that choice for oneself.

im pro-life and im not against so much giving women i choice, but what their choosing to do is just *shivers* so evil .

Yes. That's why the "pro-abortion" label makes no sense.

If a woman doesn't want to have an abortion, then I am "anti-abortion" in her case. If a woman wants to have an abortion, then I am "pro-abortion" in her case. I support the individual right to make that choice for oneself.

Then you would be pro-abortion. Bah! I hate people like you :p (off to edit original post)

Yes, I know that there is a discussion on abortion going on right now in a thread, and I also know that the abortion poll has been done, but I think I have a better poll for abortion.

I personally am pro-abortion, although I would never do it myself.

A few points about the poll:

- Guys, pretend that you'd be able to be pregnant, it's not that hard to do, and then think about if you would have an abortion or not.
- Vote on your personal feelings on the matter at the current moment. You could still vote pro-abortion but would never do it, if that's what you feel, despite having had an abortion in the past.
- I named it pro-abortion and anti-abortion for a reason. I find the "pro-choice" and "pro-life" designations to be inadequate, because I am both pro-choice and pro-life. If I thought that the fetus would be life, I would oppose abortion, and of course, preserving a life is more important than a mother's right to choose what goes on with her body.
- Also, this is in normal circumstances, for contemplating abortion. This isn't a mother's life in danger or anything.
- The pro-abortion option DOES NOT FORCE the person to have an abortion (as one crazy person thinks in the next post)

Pro-abortion?

The term you might be looking for is 'pro-choice'... very few people are really 'pro-abortion'.

I refuse to vote in the poll, for the same reason.

Pro-abortion?

The term you might be looking for is 'pro-choice'... very few people are really 'pro-abortion'.

I refuse to vote in the poll, for the same reason.
I guess it's TWO crazy people, now!

Welcome to the club, GnI!

im pro-life and im not against so much giving women i choice, but what their choosing to do is just *shivers* so evil .

Which is exactly why I named them pro-abortion and anti-abortion.

A person can be pro-choice and pro-life and be for abortion. Like me, I don't think it's life, and I would be fine with abortion.

A person can be pro-choice and pro-life and be against abortion. That person could think that the life has a choice to live, and that choice isn't to be taken away.

i am pro legal abortion.

i dont think that anyone can know what they would do until they are actually faced with an unwanted pregnancy. or worse yet, a very wanted pregnancy with a severely deformed fetus.

Pro-abortion?

The term you might be looking for is 'pro-choice'... very few people are really 'pro-abortion'.

I refuse to vote in the poll, for the same reason.

If you are pro-choice, you are pro-abortion. You are good with giving the woman the right to an abortion. Besides, I updated my original post to accommodate these crazy people.

I think you're doing it on purpose :p

i am pro legal abortion.

i dont think that anyone can know what they would do until they are actually faced with an unwanted pregnancy. or worse yet, a very wanted pregnancy with a severely deformed fetus.
Or, worse yet, a very wanted pregnancy with a healthy fetus, and a complication that will kill the mother if she continues the pregnancy. When I volunteered at a free clinic, I met a woman in that situation. It was absolutely heartbreaking. :(

Or, worse yet, a very wanted pregnancy with a healthy fetus, and a complication that will kill the mother if she continues the pregnancy. When I volunteered at a free clinic, I met a woman in that situation. It was absolutely heartbreaking. :(

Would that then deny the woman pregnancies for the rest of her life, or was it just that one time it was life-threatening?

Pro-abortion?

The term you might be looking for is 'pro-choice'... very few people are really 'pro-abortion'.

I refuse to vote in the poll, for the same reason.

I agree. I refuse to vote as well.

If you are pro-choice, you are pro-abortion. You are good with giving the woman the right to an abortion. Besides, I updated my original post to accommodate these crazy people.

Meh. Personally, I think your poll wording embraces the BS anti-choice spin on the topic. Pro-abortion =/= equal pro-choice, and anti-abortion =/= pro-life. That's the way that anti-choice activists like to spin it, and I'm not about to go along with that kind of wording.

So I guess you'll have to live without my vote in the poll. Watch out, the world is coming to an end! NO BOTTLE VOTE = APOCALYPSE!!!!

I agree. I refuse to vote as well.

I hereby declare a vendetta on Bottle, Grave_n_idle, and Smunkeeville !

Or, worse yet, a very wanted pregnancy with a healthy fetus, and a complication that will kill the mother if she continues the pregnancy. When I volunteered at a free clinic, I met a woman in that situation. It was absolutely heartbreaking. :(

that is very worse yet.

Problem is, I'm not "pro-abortion," I'm pro-choice. I don't believe it's any better to force women to have abortions than it is to force them not to have abortions. The issue, for me, is reproductive freedom. "Pro-abortion" and "anti-abortion" are equally vile if they conflict with the individual woman's wishes about her own body.

I'm afraid I have to agree with Bottle. Besides, as a man I cannot have an objective viewpoint on this anyway. I cannot become pregnant nor give birth naturally and thus am unable to fully grasp what reproductive freedom means. Thus I should not have an opinion on the matter. The only people who should really decide about reproductive freedom are the people who are directly affected: women.

Meh. Personally, I think your poll wording embraces the BS anti-choice spin on the topic. Pro-abortion =/= equal pro-choice, and anti-abortion =/= pro-life. That's the way that anti-choice activists like to spin it, and I'm not about to go along with that kind of wording.

So I guess you'll have to live without my vote in the poll. Watch out, the world is coming to an end! NO BOTTLE VOTE = APOCALYPSE!!!!

I did the rewording to accommodate the topic. The topic is about abortion. Do you think abortion should be allowed or not?

I may have to whip out some insults pretty soon.

"I am anti-abortion, but I would be willing to have an abortion."

In keeping in mind that these would be abortions under normal circumstances (not a pregnancy resulting from rape or it being life-threatening)....

That option just doesn't make sense. If you are against abortions..then why would you be willing to have one?

"I am anti-abortion, but I would be willing to have an abortion."

In keeping in mind that these would be abortions under normal circumstances (not a pregnancy resulting from rape or it being life-threatening)....

That option just doesn't make sense. If you are against abortions..then why would you be willing to have one?

It's in there for good measure.

I give your poll a C-.

You'll have to do better on the next test if you want to continue with extracurricular activities. *nod*

Would that then deny the woman pregnancies for the rest of her life, or was it just that one time it was life-threatening?
I honestly don't know, in her case. There was a complication with that particular pregnancy that seriously endangered her life, but I'm not sure if the doctors knew whether or not that complication would occur with future pregnancies. I just know that she had really, really wanted her current pregnancy, and was devastated at the prospect of having to end the pregnancy. She kept asking if I thought she was a terrible person for choosing to save her own life. That made me want to cry.

I'm afraid I have to agree with Bottle. Besides, as a man I cannot have an objective viewpoint on this anyway. I cannot become pregnant nor give birth naturally and thus am unable to fully grasp what reproductive freedom means. Thus I should not have an opinion on the matter. The only people who should really decide about reproductive freedom are the people who are directly affected: women.

It's not that hard to do. Imagine you could be pregnant. It's not as if women can imagine it better (except the ones that have already been pregnant in their lives). Then decide. But anyways, I'm not forcing you or anything.

I give your poll a C-.

You'll have to do better on the next test if you want to continue with extracurricular activities. *nod*

I'll escort myself to the office preemptively for what I'm about to say.

I honestly don't know, in her case. There was a complication with that particular pregnancy that seriously endangered her life, but I'm not sure if the doctors knew whether or not that complication would occur with future pregnancies. I just know that she had really, really wanted her current pregnancy, and was devastated at the prospect of having to end the pregnancy. She kept asking if I thought she was a terrible person for choosing to save her own life. That made me want to cry.

Was there a chance of living, or was it certain death?

If it was certain death, I'd be fine with it (after I get past the massive emotional trauma), because I'd promise myself to live to have children and raise them well, so that the aborted's sacrifice was not in vain.

If you are against abortions..then why would you be willing to have one?
Oh, it happens more often than you might think. You'd probably be surprised at the number of times I encountered women who identified as "pro-life," yet who were looking for information about terminating their own pregnancy.

In fact, here's a link called "The Only Moral Abortion Is My Abortion":

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

In that link, they mention a 1981 study that found that 24% of women who had abortions considered the procedure morally wrong. We also know that abortion rates are higher among Catholic women, and Catholicism teaches that abortion is wrong.

I support voluntary abortion up to the formation of the brain, which is roughly at the start of the second trimester; after that, I do not support it except in medical emergencies.

If you are pro-choice, you are pro-abortion. You are good with giving the woman the right to an abortion. Besides, I updated my original post to accommodate these crazy people.

I think you're doing it on purpose :p

Rubbish.

I dislike the concept of abortion. However, I think each woman has the right to govern her own uterus.

Thus, while I am clearly not pro-abortion, I am equally as clearly pro-choice.

There is nothing 'crazy' about that perspective - I think it applies to most people. I doubt there are actually many people out there at all that are truly 'pro-abortion'.

Pro-abortion is a militant stance and most people who agree with the right to barrier-free access to abortions are pro-choice; they believe that the choices aren't black and white but rather shades of grey.

No, I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice because pro-abortion is too extreme and it isn't truly pro-choice. Pro-abortion tends to mean that the person supports compulsory as well as elective abortion.

PS - I didn't vote either.

Rubbish.

I dislike the concept of abortion. However, I think each woman has the right to govern her own uterus.

Thus, while I am clearly not pro-abortion, I am equally as clearly pro-choice.

There is nothing 'crazy' about that perspective - I think it applies to most people. I doubt there are actually many people out there at all that are truly 'pro-abortion'.

So you cannot logically deduce that "pro-abortion" means that you're fine with abortions being allowed?

Then I don't want your vote.

It's not that hard to do. Imagine you could be pregnant. It's not as if women can imagine it better (except the ones that have already been pregnant in their lives). Then decide. But anyways, I'm not forcing you or anything.

Oh yes it is. I can imagine that I'm pregnant. I can also imagine that I'm the President of the United States of America and start deciding policy. But I wouldn't have any idea what it's really like. I would not be in the real situation. Think about it. How often do we hear stories about people bravely signing up for the military saying that they'll be valient soldiers and when they finally hit the battlefield they act like rabbits and flee at the first sign of trouble, for instance? Sure, it's a bit of an extreme example, but my point is that imagining and facing the reality are two very different things, and you need to realize that.

Pro-abortion is a militant stance and most people who agree with the right to barrier-free access to abortions are pro-choice; they believe that the choices aren't black and white but rather shades of grey.

No, I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice because pro-abortion is too extreme and it isn't truly pro-choice. Pro-abortion tends to mean that the person supports compulsory as well as elective abortion.

PS - I didn't vote either.

Then you are stupid.

Compulsory abortion? Do you realize that would mean the end of the human race? How the **** would pro-abortion mean you want to force other women to have abortions??

Right now I'm going on the hope that the non-vocal majority of the forum is more intelligent than this vocal minority.

So you cannot logically deduce that "pro-abortion" means that you're fine with abortions being allowed?

Then I don't want your vote.

The list of "crazy people" whose votes you don't want is growing by the minute...

Bottle
GnI
Smunkee
Kyronea
Possibly LG? (though who can really tell with him? ;))
Farflorin

And that's just up to page 3!

Oh yes it is. I can imagine that I'm pregnant. I can also imagine that I'm the President of the United States of America and start deciding policy. But I wouldn't have any idea what it's really like. I would not be in the real situation. Think about it. How often do we hear stories about people bravely signing up for the military saying that they'll be valient soldiers and when they finally hit the battlefield they act like rabbits and flee at the first sign of trouble, for instance? Sure, it's a bit of an extreme example, but my point is that imagining and facing the reality are two very different things, and you need to realize that.

Then only a small portion of the population would vote on this poll, the women who have already experienced pregnancy (which would probably be more fair, but as it is, this isn't how my poll is designed).

So you cannot logically deduce that "pro-abortion" means that you're fine with abortions being allowed?

Then I don't want your vote.

It is good that you don't want my vote, because your poll is fatally broken, and wouldn't have got my vote anyway.

Being 'fine with abortions being allowed' is not 'pro-abortion', because it does not portray abortion as a positive thing. It is - however - pro-choice.

If you cannot logically deduce that there is a difference between pro-choice and actively pro-abortion, your poll doesn't deserve my vote.

Or smunkee's.

Or Bottle's...

EDIT: Or - the consistently increasing list. It seems you might be the only person who likes your poll.

"I am anti-abortion, but I would be willing to have an abortion."

In keeping in mind that these would be abortions under normal circumstances (not a pregnancy resulting from rape or it being life-threatening)....

That option just doesn't make sense. If you are against abortions..then why would you be willing to have one?

not many would admit to being willing to have an abortion when they are against legal abortion but many women DO end up having an abortion against their own moral principles when circumstances force it on them. many anti legal abortion parents pressure their teen daughters to get an abortion.

you just dont know what you will do until you actually face the problem.

It is good that you don't want my vote, because your poll is fatally broken, and wouldn't have got my vote anyway.

Being 'fine with abortions being allowed' is not 'pro-abortion', because it does not portray abortion as a positive thing. It is - however - pro-choice.

If you cannot logically deduce that there is a difference between pro-choice and actively pro-abortion, your poll doesn't deserve my vote.

Or smunkee's.

Or Bottle's...

EDIT: Or - the consistently increasing list. It seems you might be the only person who likes your poll.

Or just that the intelligent people who have no problem with it just vote and move along.

Then you are stupid.

Compulsory abortion? Do you realize that would mean the end of the human race? How the **** would pro-abortion mean you want to force other women to have abortions??

Right now I'm going on the hope that the non-vocal majority of the forum is more intelligent than this vocal minority.

Antagonise the respondents... call them names, and denigrate their intelligence.

Would 'Defiantland' be the name of a puppet designed to be 'defiant' and get itself banned asap?

EDIT: Or - the consistently increasing list. It seems you might be the only person who likes your poll.
I can tell y'all exactly what the results of his poll will be.

A large number of the people who are pro-choice won't vote in it, so the results will be skewed toward the anti-choice end of the spectrum. Most, if not all, of those people will insist they would never have an abortion. Of course, that tells us very little about what those people would actually do in the situation where they are forced to contemplate their own unwanted pregnancy.

In my opinion, a poll isn't "a better poll" if it is designed in such a way that a large portion of potential respondents refuse to even vote. You will get a very skewed sample in that case.

Then only a small portion of the population would vote on this poll, the women who have already experienced pregnancy (which would probably be more fair, but as it is, this isn't how my poll is designed).

The only people who have a right to decide, again, are women. They are the ones affected. What do we men have the right to tell them what to do or not do with their bodies? What right do we have to lord over their ability to reproduce and tell them what they may or may not do? What right do we have? We do not have the right. Abortion should never have been a debate between men. It should be decided purely by women. End of story.

The list of "crazy people" whose votes you don't want is growing by the minute...

Bottle
GnI
Smunkee
Kyronea
Possibly LG? (though who can really tell with him? ;))
Farflorin

And that's just up to page 3!

YAY! :D

Antagonise the respondents... call them names, and denigrate their intelligence.

Would 'Defiantland' be the name of a puppet designed to be 'defiant' and get itself banned asap?

I have lost my patience, you realize. A few posts back, I replied to Bottle with "Don't make me whip out insults" or something like that. At that point, I was really wanting to, but I didn't. However, now I've broken.

It is my personal opinion that anyone who doesn't recognize "pro-abortion" as "pro-choice" and instead recognizes it as "totalitarian government who forces abortion on everyone" lacks intelligence.

But, for good measure, I apologize.

I have lost my patience, you realize. A few posts back, I replied to Bottle with "Don't make me whip out insults" or something like that. At that point, I was really wanting to, but I didn't. However, now I've broken.

Meh. I've had guys tell me I'd better shut up or they'll slug me, and it didn't work for them. Don't blame your personal lack of self-control on me.


But, for good measure, I apologize.
Appreciated.

Was there a chance of living, or was it certain death?

If it was certain death, I'd be fine with it (after I get past the massive emotional trauma), because I'd promise myself to live to have children and raise them well, so that the aborted's sacrifice was not in vain.

good example of how you really cant imagine yourself pregnant.

no one would ever be FINE with aborting a healthy wanted fetus. she probably came to terms with it after a while but its always going to be a terrible loss.

In my opinion, a poll isn't "a better poll" if it is designed in such a way that a large portion of potential respondents refuse to even vote. You will get a very skewed sample in that case.

I already knew that was it, and my original postulate was wrong. I hoped that naming it "a better poll" would attract people to come and vote and discuss it. However, it just attracted people being asses trying to take down the poll. Wonderful.

Or just that the intelligent people who have no problem with it just vote and move along.

Hit and run voting... the argument that someone who votes and runs must be 'more intelligent' is an interesting one to make - but hard to prove, don't you think?

Equally as likely would be the possibility that some people voted without considering what 'pro-abortion' really means.

Which - I'm beginning to suspect - might have been your goal. A cheap trick designed so you can later 'sting' people by revealing that their 'pro-abortion' vote means they want to 'murder babies' or some similar rubbish.

I hereby declare a vendetta on Bottle, Grave_n_idle, and Smunkeeville !

:p good luck with that.

Then you are stupid.

Compulsory abortion? Do you realize that would mean the end of the human race? How the **** would pro-abortion mean you want to force other women to have abortions??

Right now I'm going on the hope that the non-vocal majority of the forum is more intelligent than this vocal minority.

You're the one who wrote 'pro-abortion' when the better term is 'pro-choice' because it means that even if the person doesn't support the procedure itself, they support the woman's right to that procedure.

Anti-abortionist, however is a descriptive title befitting of those who don't agree at all because they are of the contention that the woman has no choice in the matter and an abortion is morally wrong.

I've seen a few pro-abortions (just a very few) on this forum who have suggested that abortion be total legal and at times... compulsory.

Now, don't call me stupid. However, if you want to, then I can accuse you of flame-baiting because I feel insulted, especially since you directed the statement that I'm stupid at my beliefs.

The only people who have a right to decide, again, are women. They are the ones affected. What do we men have the right to tell them what to do or not do with their bodies? What right do we have to lord over their ability to reproduce and tell them what they may or may not do? What right do we have? We do not have the right. Abortion should never have been a debate between men. It should be decided purely by women. End of story.

This is a poll of opinion. What's your opinion on the issue. If I wanted to have a poll of actual legislation, it would make more sense to have it your way.

Problem is, I'm not "pro-abortion," I'm pro-choice. I don't believe it's any better to force women to have abortions than it is to force them not to have abortions. The issue, for me, is reproductive freedom. "Pro-abortion" and "anti-abortion" are equally vile if they conflict with the individual woman's wishes about her own body.

I'm pro-choise because of what is goin to happen to the kid if the parent doesnt wont it. What if the parent chooses the cowerds way out and dumps his kid, what if the kid gets mistreaded by his/her parents or fosterparents?
I dont think its a great solution. I think abortion should b allowed ,BUT its should b prevented by campains. You wouldnt like to now a kid dies in a dumpster or by hanging itself beause it gets abused ( those r extreme things but..)

This is a poll of opinion. What's your opinion on the issue. If I wanted to have a poll of actual legislation, it would make more sense to have it your way.
My opinion? My opinion is that women have the right to choose what they will or will not do with their bodies and thus abortion should be legal, under the following circumstances:

Up to the beginning of the second trimester, abortions may be freely performed.

After the beginning of the second trimester(which coincides with the development of the human brain and thus the fetus can start being considered a human rather than a fetus) abortions should be limited to medical emergencies and special cases, such as discovering the father was actually a rapist and not your boyfriend or some such.

But again, that's just my opinion. I'm not going to insist it become law because I am a man and thus do not have the right to actually decide. And I'm certainly not going to vote in this poll because it reeks of anti-choice spin.

OK, I'm abandoning this thread/poll

Next time I post a poll here, I will take into account the level of intelligence (apologies to those who actually understood what it meant).

As for you who antagonized me needlessly, I apologize if "A better poll" made it seem like I have a hubris. It was purely a marketing gimmick (it actually was), but I understand why you would try to run me out for doing something like that. I'll also take that into account next time.

The list of "crazy people" whose votes you don't want is growing by the minute...

Bottle
GnI
Smunkee
Kyronea
Possibly LG? (though who can really tell with him? ;))
Farflorin

And that's just up to page 3!

Please add me to the list of "crazy people." I could list my reasons why, but everyone above has already made compelling arguments for the poor choice of wording.

And BTW, a woman doesn't have to have been pregnant to understand reproductive rights. She just needs to have been in the position where she's had to seriously contemplate abortion/adoption/having a child ect.

I had a pregnancy scare. I had an IUD, always used protection, was just waiting for my 25th birthday so a doctor could perform a tubal ligation. Sitting in the doctors office waiting for my test to come back you better believe I grasped the concept of reproductive rights.

The only people who have a right to decide, again, are women. They are the ones affected. What do we men have the right to tell them what to do or not do with their bodies? What right do we have to lord over their ability to reproduce and tell them what they may or may not do? What right do we have? We do not have the right. Abortion should never have been a debate between men. It should be decided purely by women. End of story.

Because that's the way democratic societies make decisions on issues. All members of society should have a say in the decisions made by the government.

You're the one who wrote 'pro-abortion' when the better term is 'pro-choice' because it means that even if the person doesn't support the procedure itself, they support the woman's right to that procedure.


thats like not supporting genocide, but supporting a dictatorships self-appointed "right" to commit it.

Next time I post a poll here, I will take into account the level of intelligence (apologies to those who actually understood what it meant).

yes, take our level of intelligence into account and come up with a less biased poll.

You're the one who wrote 'pro-abortion' when the better term is 'pro-choice' because it means that even if the person doesn't support the procedure itself, they support the woman's right to that procedure.

Anti-abortionist, however is a descriptive title befitting of those who don't agree at all because they are of the contention that the woman has no choice in the matter and an abortion is morally wrong.

Yeah, that's the key:

A person who is "anti-abortion" opposes abortion. They think abortion is wrong/bad.

A person who is "pro-abortion" supports abortion. They think abortion is right/good.

There are plenty of people around this forum who believe abortion is wrong/bad across the board. There are plenty of people who believe abortion should be opposed without exception.

However, I can't think of a single name of a person who believes that abortion is right/good across the board. All the people I know of who support the right to abortion would also say that abortion is totally wrong if the woman does not consent to it. Every pro-choice person I can think of would agree that there are plenty of pregnancies that should not be aborted. I know there are some trolls who advocate aborting all humans and whatever, but I honestly can't think of a single serious poster who does this. If you can, please feel free to correct me.

Phrasing this subject as "pro-abortion" or "anti-abortion" is simply an anti-choice tactic to twist the subject. The pure, simple fact is that there are plenty of people who oppose abortion, and most mainstream anti-choice organizations do this. Meanwhile, there is not one single mainstream pro-choice organization that is pro-abortion across the board, because every single one is grounded in the idea that abortion is good when women are allowed to make that choice for themselves.

It's an attempt to make it seem like the ends of the spectrum are "anti-abortion" and "pro-abortion," when they are actually anti-choice and pro-choice.

thats like not supporting genocide, but supporting a dictatorships self-appointed "right" to do it.

No it isn't, and shame on you for making such false correllations. It's showing that you do not have the right to decide for other people, that you support their freedom to make their own decisions even if you never would make that decision. I'll never smoke pot or drink beer, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone tell someone else they can't. Sure, I'm not doing it, but I support the right for people to do it IF THEY CHOOSE TO.

Hit and run voting... the argument that someone who votes and runs must be 'more intelligent' is an interesting one to make - but hard to prove, don't you think?

No, more like, people who are saying "pro-abortion = forced abortions for everyone" are not intelligent, and everyone else is (everyone else being those who AREN'T posting).

Equally as likely would be the possibility that some people voted without considering what 'pro-abortion' really means.

Which - I'm beginning to suspect - might have been your goal. A cheap trick designed so you can later 'sting' people by revealing that their 'pro-abortion' vote means they want to 'murder babies' or some similar rubbish.

It's a simple matter of opinion. Are you pro-abortion, or anti-abortion? If you're not pro-abortion, how could you be fine with other people doing it? But, no matter. You have successfully run me out. Congratulations :D

Feel proud.

yes, take our level of intelligence into account and come up with a less biased poll.

Locate the bias, please.

EDIT: Never mind.

Yeah, that's the key:

A person who is "anti-abortion" opposes abortion. They think abortion is wrong/bad.

A person who is "pro-abortion" supports abortion. They think abortion is right/good.

There are plenty of people around this forum who believe abortion is wrong/bad across the board. There are plenty of people who believe abortion should be opposed without exception.

However, I can't think of a single name of a person who believes that abortion is right/good across the board. All the people I know of who support the right to abortion would also say that abortion is totally wrong if the woman does not consent to it. Every pro-choice person I can think of would agree that there are plenty of pregnancies that should not be aborted. I know there are some trolls who advocate aborting all humans and whatever, but I honestly can't think of a single serious poster who does this. If you can, please feel free to correct me.

Phrasing this subject as "pro-abortion" or "anti-abortion" is simply an anti-choice tactic to twist the subject. The pure, simple fact is that there are plenty of people who oppose abortion, and most mainstream anti-choice organizations do this. Meanwhile, there is not one single mainstream pro-choice organization that is pro-abortion across the board, because every single one is grounded in the idea that abortion is good when women are allowed to make that choice for themselves.

It's an attempt to make it seem like the ends of the spectrum are "anti-abortion" and "pro-abortion," when they are actually anti-choice and pro-choice.

If you honestly believe this, I'll change the next poll's wording to accommodate you. And thank you for intelligently explaining to me exactly what's wrong with it.

No it isn't, and shame on you for making such false correllations. It's showing that you do not have the right to decide for other people, that you support their freedom to make their own decisions even if you never would make that decision. I'll never smoke pot or drink beer, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone tell someone else they can't. Sure, I'm not doing it, but I support the right for people to do it IF THEY CHOOSE TO.

i'm sure you would never kill a person either, but would you tell someone they can't if they choose to?

It's a simple matter of opinion. Are you pro-abortion, or anti-abortion? If you're not pro-abortion, how could you be fine with other people doing it? But, no matter. You have successfully run me out. Congratulations :D

Feel proud.

You seem to think that our goal is to chase you away. This is not the case. At least not for me.

I would vastly prefer intelligent, meaningful debate. I think your idea of a poll of this sort is a good one at its core, but the execution was garbled in a way that would totally obscure what you are trying to do.

Please don't take constructive criticism as a personal insult. It really is not intended that way.

i'm sure you would never kill a person either, but would you tell someone they can't if they choose to?

Yes, I would, because they are interfering with another person's most basic civil liberty, the right to live. Please see this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12284206&postcount=52) for why my stance on abortion does not conflict with this.

You seem to think that our goal is to chase you away. This is not the case. At least not for me.

I would vastly prefer intelligent, meaningful debate. I think your idea of a poll of this sort is a good one at its core, but the execution was garbled in a way that would totally obscure what you are trying to do.

Please don't take constructive criticism as a personal insult. It really is not intended that way.

It's fine now.

At first, I couldn't see how you could possibly be confused, so I assumed you were trying to sabotage me (especially because of my "a better poll" title). But now that I understand, it's fine.

Though, I did get a kick out of people accusing me of placing pro-life bias in my poll when I'm actually pro-choice :p

Please add me to the list of "crazy people." I could list my reasons why, but everyone above has already made compelling arguments for the poor choice of wording.

And BTW, a woman doesn't have to have been pregnant to understand reproductive rights. She just needs to have been in the position where she's had to seriously contemplate abortion/adoption/having a child ect.

I had a pregnancy scare. I had an IUD, always used protection, was just waiting for my 25th birthday so a doctor could perform a tubal ligation. Sitting in the doctors office waiting for my test to come back you better believe I grasped the concept of reproductive rights.

ive only been pregnant once, a wanted child, now 20 years old.

no one should have to go through that unwillingly.

Even though everything is settled now, I love debate :p

You're saying with the poll that people who are pro-choice are pro-abortion across the board.

I'm saying that pro-choice means pro-abortion. If you're pro-choice, you're good with abortions happening.

That simply is not the case. You're twisting the facts. I myself would never support an abortion if the woman did not want it.

So you think that my option "pro-abortion" means abortions for everyone even if they don't want it? (PS: this is what caused me to start calling people stupid... for which I again apologize)

I would not support an abortion if the child was close to term and the woman did not have a medical complication that would cause death to the mother or the child upon birth. I would not support an abortion performed in an illegal manner such as the infamous wire coathanger allyway abortions. I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion.

An extremely subtle difference that I have come to see and accept, thus the matter being resolved.

There is a signficant difference, and you know that. You know it and yet you don't care because you're trying to use this to make pro-choice people look bad. Fact is, our level of intelligence is higher than you would believe. We can see past your cheap trick. Nice try, but we don't buy it.

Oops.

Even though everything is settled now, I love debate :p



I'm saying that pro-choice means pro-abortion. If you're pro-choice, you're good with abortions happening.



So you think that my option "pro-abortion" means abortions for everyone even if they don't want it? (PS: this is what caused me to start calling people stupid... for which I again apologize)



An extremely subtle difference that I have come to see and accept, thus the matter being resolved.



Oops.
I retract everything I said in that post. I missed the posts where you were debating this with Bottle. Please accept my apologies. I will go delete the post now.

Yes, I would, because they are interfering with another person's most basic civil liberty, the right to live. Please see this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12284206&postcount=52) for why my stance on abortion does not conflict with this.

while the fetus my not be "human" until after the beginning of the second trimester, it is still living, and thus has the basic right to live.

while the fetus my not be "human" until after the beginning of the second trimester, it is still living, and thus has the basic right to live.

so do cows, chickens, pigs, broccoli, carrots, lettuce, tomatoes, potatoes......should I go on?

while the fetus my not be "human" until after the beginning of the second trimester, it is still living, and thus has the basic right to live.

Up until the brain has developed, it is not human. What's more, it is not sentient, and that is where I draw the line. I don't have a problem with animal death. I am not a vegan and have no problem with eating animals. It's the killing of sentient life that bothers me. Up until the brain has developed in a fetus it is not sentient.

That's not to say I would have no problem with, say, my wife aborting a fetus at that point. I would seriously be bothered by the idea because the child is my child. I wouldn't want my child to be aborted. I wouldn't want to lose the opportunity to raise a child. Of course, I doubt we'd have a reason apart from medical complications to abort in the first place because we'd be intelligent enough to avoid trying to procreate(and do our best to utilize birth control methods to the fullest) until we're at the point where we can raise the child without financial strain anyway, but that's beside the point.

Of course, with all that said, I again point out that as a man my feelings on the matter are irrelevant and thus should not be considered when making abortion legal or illegal.

I should point out to anti-choice people that making abortion illegal again would only lead to poorly performed, unsanitary dangerous operations that would be much more likely to harm or possibly kill the mother. Those who are anti-choice should consider that before force-feeding their "morality" down our throats.

so do cows, chickens, pigs, broccoli, carrots, lettuce, tomatoes, potatoes......should I go on?

please do.

The new poll is up (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=516780), please abandon this thread.

No, more like, people who are saying "pro-abortion = forced abortions for everyone" are not intelligent, and everyone else is (everyone else being those who AREN'T posting).


False dichotomy.


It's a simple matter of opinion. Are you pro-abortion, or anti-abortion? If you're not pro-abortion, how could you be fine with other people doing it? But, no matter. You have successfully run me out. Congratulations :D

Feel proud.

If you want to feel martyred, knock yourself out. My original post clearly stated the what and why of my response - but you wanted to fight about it, and insult people. If you choose to leave because your poll is bad, I'll lose no sleep over it - but I think it'd be a pretty silly reason to go.

please do.

Worms, lampreys, puffballs, cannabis, amoebas, bacteria...

Worms, lampreys, puffballs, cannabis, amoebas, bacteria...

and who would want to kill those? NO ONE.

and who would want to kill those? NO ONE.

Is killing a puffball so I can eat it considered murder?

and who would want to kill those? NO ONE.

...

Ow. My head.

Is killing a puffball so I can eat it considered murder.

yes. you should rot in jail. what a horrible person...

http://www.alaska.net/~royce/spam/spam-garlic.jpg
:D The logical conclusion to all such threads.

http://www.alaska.net/~royce/spam/spam-garlic.jpg
:D The logical conclusion to all such threads.

wtf

I'm saying that pro-choice means pro-abortion. If you're pro-choice, you're good with abortions happening.
I think that while you understand the core of it, you're missing the fact that when a person is pro-choice, they don't necessarily support the abortion procedure itself, but rather they support the right of the woman to make her own choices when it comes to her reproductive system.

There were a couple of folks over in the Abortion on Demand thread who explained that while they disagree with abortion itself, they would not oppose it on the grounds that they felt that the woman's right to her body and her right to make the choice was more important.

Now, would you please apologise for calling me stupid. I don't appreciate your condescending tone or manner in any form.

wtf
The official end of these threads is when the spammers arrive.

I think that while you understand the core of it, you're missing the fact that when a person is pro-choice, they don't necessarily support the abortion procedure itself, but rather they support the right of the woman to make her own choices when it comes to her reproductive system.

There were a couple of folks over in the Abortion on Demand thread who explained that while they disagree with abortion itself, they would not oppose it on the grounds that they felt that the woman's right to her body and her right to make the choice was more important.

Now, would you please apologise for calling me stupid. I don't appreciate your condescending tone or manner in any form.

This has been discussed ad nauseum. The OP even admitted to the error of their ways. The new and impoved poll is up. Free of disingenuounity.

I'm not pro- or anit-abortion. I believe that there is a line that has to be drawn IN MY OPINION!

I believe it is wrong to have an abortion if you are the one who got knocked up BECAUSE of YOUR irresponsibility and lack of self control. On the other hand, if you were raped and are pregnant because of that, I believe that it should be a right to be able to have an abortion in that case. There are a lot of freedoms and this one is abused too often. If you get pregnant because of your lack of responsibility and self respect, that is your problem and you should have to have the kid and take care of paying for it and taking care of it because YOU were the one who made the choice to have sex in the first place.

Since the author made a new poll for this purpose, use that one please.

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