NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok yes I am a big "Matrix" geek, but I wonder if it's actually possible to trick a human brain into believing a false reality. Let's take a very popular MMORPG, like World of Warcraft. We take a test subject, and we hook him up to a computer and create a WoW character for him. Would it be possible for us to trick the brain into believing that the WoW world is real, and that his WoW character is the real person, etc.? It'd think it would be pretty interesting to test and find out.

"Does your life suck? Then let B166ER (An Animatrix reference) corp. put you in a more pleasing reality."

So what do you guys think?

Ok yes I am a big "Matrix" geek, but I wonder if it's actually possible to trick a human brain into believing a false reality.

Considering we do not even need a virtual reality environment for that, but can achieve the same through propaganda I daresay: yes.

Ok yes I am a big "Matrix" geek, but I wonder if it's actually possible to trick a human brain into believing a false reality.

sure that is possible, ever taken drugs?

but i think it would be hard to do it for a long period of time, and to make him/her actualy believe what you want. maybe in the future.

Am I the only one who fell asleep during the first Matrix movie and didn't bother watching the second or the third?

Considering we do not even need a virtual reality environment for that, but can achieve the same through propaganda I daresay: yes.

I meant like a computer simulation, not propaganda.

Am I the only one who fell asleep during the first Matrix movie and didn't bother watching the second or the third?

i only saw the first, and found it "meh". i can understand that people like it, but i'm not really a sciencefiction fan.

Ok yes I am a big "Matrix" geek, but I wonder if it's actually possible to trick a human brain into believing a false reality.

There are entire fields of psychology related to dealing with human brains that have successfully tricked themselves into believing a false reality. The real problems with The Matrix are more to do with it being a contradiction [if the machines are extracting all electrical impulses from the humans, the brains would not be functioning and the simulation would be pointless] and, oh yeah, that whole bit where it violates conservation of energy.

I meant like a computer simulation, not propaganda.

The computer simulation would be merely an extreme form of mind deceiving techniques that have existed for millenia. People are more than willing to believe lies - we do not have a "truth sense" or something like that.

There are entire fields of psychology related to dealing with human brains that have successfully tricked themselves into believing a false reality. The real problems with The Matrix are more to do with it being a contradiction [if the machines are extracting all electrical impulses from the humans, the brains would not be functioning and the simulation would be pointless] and, oh yeah, that whole bit where it violates conservation of energy.

The machines didn't just rely on the human body for energy. They combined the heat from the human body and a form of fission (They never said) to create the energy. Why human bodies, well to the machines it was a renewable energy source that could be grown and implanted into the Matrix simulation. When a body dies, it's simply recycled and used again.

this is essentialy the alan touring question, and the short answer is we aren't there yet. not tecnologicly. i find my own dreams quite convincing though.

morso however, then any 3d gx i've yet been able to get my hands on with the hardware to really streatch it's limits. i'm not spielberg or lucas though.

in principal i don't see why such a thing might not be eventualy possible.

none of the mmo's or postited vr environments i've yet heard of, bear any more resemblence to the kind of world i'd WISH to be living in, then the limitations of the one we already do.

i should hope, if and when the potential for this tecnology reaches that 'touring' point of development, we will also have developed the immagination and responsibility to do something truely creative and gratifying with it, and not just create another of the same kind of hell we already have that we don't need it for.

=^^=
.../\...

but I wonder if it's actually possible to trick a human brain into believing a false reality. Dreams, anyone?

Why were all the people in the matrix again? That movie never made any damn sense.

The machines didn't just rely on the human body for energy. They combined the heat from the human body and a form of fission (They never said) to create the energy.

No, they didn't. They said they used electricity and heat generated by humans 'combined with a form of fusion.' The only reason they needed the humans if they had fusion was IITS, because you can't really make a movie if the machines can kill all the humans and still be just fine and dandy.

Why human bodies, well to the machines it was a renewable energy source that could be grown and implanted into the Matrix simulation. When a body dies, it's simply recycled and used again.

Which violates the Law of Conservation of Energy. The Matrix must constantly use energy to maintain the humans which use whatever fuels it gives them at 25% efficiency, it must use energy to move them, it must use energy to create and power the simulation, and it must use energy to render down dead humans. The Second Law of Thermodynamics forbids the Matrix ever getting more energy from this than it started with, and with waste heat at every step, it would simply be staving off the point where it inevitably turned all energy to waste heat. It's unlikely a given pod in the system would ever produce more energy than it required to sustain it.

Anyway, if this were actually workable, why not use cows instead of humans? They generate more heat per unit, they're more efficient to feed, and the simulation would just have to be one big field of grass.

Why were all the people in the matrix again? That movie never made any damn sense.

Watch the three matrix prologues, also known as "Terminator I, II and III".
As for the reason humans were not exterminated - in that era fossil fuels would be depleted (after all, they will be in 40 years time and the movie was situated much later). Fuel for nuclear reactors was most likely also gone, and the sun was darkened by humanity.

So.. the machines went for bio-energy, running on energy sources they themselves could not use. Us.
Not that that is in any way feasible, but hey.

this is essentialy the alan touring question, and the short answer is we aren't there yet. not tecnologicly. i find my own dreams quite convincing though.Do you mean Turing? Because the turing test has absolutely nothing to do with a computer immersing a brain into false realities. Turing concerned himself with whether a machine could pretend to be human (over text communication).

http://online.benchama.ac.th/math/pictures/matrix.gif

(Sorry, couldn't help it. :p)

Ok yes I am a big "Matrix" geek, but I wonder if it's actually possible to trick a human brain into believing a false reality. Let's take a very popular MMORPG, like World of Warcraft. We take a test subject, and we hook him up to a computer and create a WoW character for him. Would it be possible for us to trick the brain into believing that the WoW world is real, and that his WoW character is the real person, etc.? It'd think it would be pretty interesting to test and find out.

"Does your life suck? Then let B166ER (An Animatrix reference) corp. put you in a more pleasing reality."

So what do you guys think?

if you watch the movie ghost in the shell, youl notice that some of the people have had false memories implanted in them. the movie is about a hacker called the puppet master who controlls some victims by giving them false memories via their "cyber brain", once their reality is told to them, the victim is pretty freaked out. the whole movie is whacked. you should check it out. its sort of the same thing as what youre thinking

Watch the three matrix prologues, also known as "Terminator I, II and III".

THERE ARE ONLY TWO TERMINATOR MOVIES.

The unbelievably stupid movie where a supercomputer is causing chaos on the internet so it will get itself released onto the internet [!] does not count.

Watch the three matrix prologues, also known as "Terminator I, II and III".
As for the reason humans were not exterminated - in that era fossil fuels would be depleted (after all, they will be in 40 years time and the movie was situated much later). Fuel for nuclear reactors was most likely also gone, and the sun was darkened by humanity.

So.. the machines went for bio-energy, running on energy sources they themselves could not use. Us.
Not that that is in any way feasible, but hey.

Why not just disconnect the brainbox then? Why go through this silly matrix hoojamaflip. (And where do the humans in that zion dealy get their energy to run that submarine/spaceship thingy from?)

And where do the humans in that zion dealy get their energy to run that submarine/spaceship thingy from?

Continuity errors.

Why were all the people in the matrix again? That movie never made any damn sense.

The people are in The Matrix because the machines need their body for energy. The Matrix is like a prison for the mind, if people believe that they are not energy source for machines, then they become more stable, and if they are stable then the machines can use the heat emitted from humans and combined it with a form of fusion, they'd have the energy that they need. So basically the purpose of The Matrix is to make sure that the human body is stable.

I have two housemates and they already do think world of warcraft is real. no supercomputer-cybor-labtest-neurons needed!

THERE ARE ONLY TWO TERMINATOR MOVIES.

The unbelievably stupid movie where a supercomputer is causing chaos on the internet so it will get itself released onto the internet [!] does not count.

Not to mention nuking the world, thus shutting down ALL THE ENERGY INDUSTRY EVER.... EMPing every computer it RUNS on, since it's an internet virus.... and all that jazz.

Why not just disconnect the brainbox then? Why go through this silly matrix hoojamaflip. (And where do the humans in that zion dealy get their energy to run that submarine/spaceship thingy from?)

http://www.intothematrix.com/

Watch "The Second Renaissance Part 1" and "Part 2" to get the whole story.

Why were all the people in the matrix again? That movie never made any damn sense.

Prior to the Matrix, humans were lazy and built robots to do their work. The robots became sentient or self aware.

Then the robots wanted rights, this scared to sh1t out of the humans so they tried to destroy the robots.

Surviving robots were allowed to set up a colony in the desert somewhere.

Over time, the robots got really peaved at the humans and decided that they would rule the Earth and wipe out humans.

Humans and robots went to war. Humans couldn't defeat the robots so humans blocked out the Sun to try and stop the robots supply of energy.

Robots saw humans as an energy source so wiping them out was not an option.

Humans were given the option of living in a virtual world or dark nightmarish reality, humans opted for the virtual life and the robots got there energy source.

And so the Matrix was formed.


I think they use the word 'Matrix' from the geologists term for the Earth.

http://www.intothematrix.com/

Watch "The Second Renaissance Part 1" and "Part 2" to get the whole story.

As long as you ignore that robots would not be immune to nuclear weapons and indeed that the machines are explicitly said to be especially vulnerable to EMP, and so the human nuclear attack would have obliterated Zero-One and the war would never have happened.

As long as you ignore that robots would not be immune to nuclear weapons and indeed that the machines are explicitly said to be especially vulnerable to EMP, and so the human nuclear attack would have obliterated Zero-One and the war would never have happened.

Maybe the robots in 01 and 01 itself are a completely different set of AIs from the Sentials that they use to attack and destroy hovercraft. One could concludes that the robots and 01 uses fiber optics.

Maybe the robots in 01 and 01 itself are a completely different set of AIs from the Sentials that they use to attack and destroy hovercraft. One could concludes that the robots and 01 uses fiber optics.

So why go back to electronic circuitry for the sentinels when they know damn well the humans are using magnetic-pulse weapons against them? Seriously, there is no way for the non-destruction of Zero-One to make sense; even if it somehow was EMP-proof, it would still be a lake of molten glass.

None of this explains where the humans get their power source. I can only conclude that life outside the matrix is another matrix, and morpheus is sadly mistaken as to the efficacy of his little pills.

So why go back to electronic circuitry for the sentinels when they know damn well the humans are using magnetic-pulse weapons against them? Seriously, there is no way for the non-destruction of Zero-One to make sense; even if it somehow was EMP-proof, it would still be a lake of molten glass.

The Machines are more efficient in everything against the humans. The Nukes bombings didn't work because as soon as it was done, the machines rebuilt. I mean comon, they kicked the humans ass in the economy war, by building better and cheaper product at a faster rate, so why wouldn't they apply that in rebuilding 01 and it's citizens?

As to why not use the same thing in the Sentials, well maybe it's just cheaper to use the electronic wiring than to use fiber optics. The Sentials are basically the dumber child of the AI society, they are programmed to do one thing, and one thing only.

THERE ARE ONLY TWO TERMINATOR MOVIES.

The unbelievably stupid movie where a supercomputer is causing chaos on the internet so it will get itself released onto the internet [!] does not count.

i said that to a guest who saw my DVDs and ask me why i only got 1 and 2

None of this explains where the humans get their power source. I can only conclude that life outside the matrix is another matrix, and morpheus is sadly mistaken as to the efficacy of his little pills.

Well if you watched "Reloaded" You'll notice that "Zion" is another control by the machines, basically Zion is a dumping ground for all humans that want free of the simulation, so one would think that the machines are providing everything.

The Machines are more efficient in everything against the humans. The Nukes bombings didn't work because as soon as it was done, the machines rebuilt.

Rebuilding after being totally obliterated by just about every nuclear weapon on earth is kinda difficult. The machines would be welded solid if they survived at all.

I mean comon, they kicked the humans ass in the economy war, by building better and cheaper product at a faster rate, so why wouldn't they apply that in rebuilding 01 and it's citizens?

Because they would have been entirely destroyed. You're talking multiple high-megaton direct impacts, not a single doubledigit kiloton airburst like Hiroshima.

As to why not use the same thing in the Sentials, well maybe it's just cheaper to use the electronic wiring than to use fiber optics. The Sentials are basically the dumber child of the AI society, they are programmed to do one thing, and one thing only.

Which is useless if they can't do it. If they can be built to be invulnerable to the humans' only real weapon against them, they would be. Again, either the machines are so utterly dense they continue building machines to be vulnerable to what they know is the humans' only effective defence, or you just have to accept it's a stupid plot contrivance equal to putting a band-aid on a mile-wide hole and claiming it's gone.

It's just a film, a make believe one, really.

It's just a film, a make believe one, really.

Most people are in fact aware of this. It's just not one with a particularly coherent plot. Or, by the time you get to the third one, a particularly coherent anything.

Most people are in fact aware of this. It's just not one with a particularly coherent plot. Or, by the time you get to the third one, a particularly coherent anything.

What's not coherent about Revolution?

I'll respond to your post in the morning.

What's not coherent about Revolution?

You'd make a shorter list from what is coherent about it. When it gets to the point where they introduce a character which is actually called 'Deus Ex Machina' [as if recognising this somehow makes it ok] you are in Trouble.

You'd make a shorter list from what is coherent about it. When it gets to the point where they introduce a character which is actually called 'Deus Ex Machina' [as if recognising this somehow makes it ok] you are in Trouble.

In order for Revolution to make sense, you have to had seen Reloaded and the first one. I've seen all three films, and so far it all seems to work pretty well.

The machines used humanity rather than fusion alone because it was a convenient method of controlling the population. The machines never had any intention of killing all humans; they, in fact, wanted to live in peace with them. This is why the Matrix existed. They wanted peace, but knew they couldn't have it with humanity roaming around.

The machines used humanity rather than fusion alone because it was a convenient method of controlling the population.

Six billion is not in any way controlled. The system as described is simply completely useless and a massive waste of time to construct.

http://online.benchama.ac.th/math/pictures/matrix.gif

(Sorry, couldn't help it. :p)
Damn you, I was going to do that.
In order for Revolution to make sense, you have to had seen Reloaded and the first one. I've seen all three films, and so far it all seems to work pretty well.

It doesn't make sense at all, not even a little. And I have seen all three movies. It's fairly entertaining, but not at all realistic.

Well if you watched "Reloaded" You'll notice that "Zion" is another control by the machines, basically Zion is a dumping ground for all humans that want free of the simulation, so one would think that the machines are providing everything.

So then why are the Human's fighting the machines if the machines are providing the power? I mean, they must know where their power comes from, right? Or were they all like "cool, here's a power cable, totally kick ass, lets go kick machine ass HUA" and never wondered anything more about where they got their electricity from? Really, it just makes no sense.

This problem is as old as Plato, Descartes etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_Vat

I've studied it for one semester, thought about it ever since and still don't have the answer....

just a headache from all the thinking........

I think Zion was meant to get all of its power from all the molten rock futher down into the earth's centre as it was bried so far down. That is possible as it's been proposed as a future energy source now. But that doesnt mean any of the rest of the film makes sense.

What I always wanted to know was after Neo defeats Smith at the end of the last movie, why did the machines keep their word and back off from Zion? They had what they wanted (smith destroyed), so why didnt they kill Neo and swoop in and destroy Zion?

I think Zion was meant to get all of its power from all the molten rock futher down into the earth's centre as it was bried so far down. That is possible as it's been proposed as a future energy source now. But that doesnt mean any of the rest of the film makes sense.

What I always wanted to know was after Neo defeats Smith at the end of the last movie, why did the machines keep their word and back off from Zion? They had what they wanted (smith destroyed), so why didnt they kill Neo and swoop in and destroy Zion?

Because they're clearly the least intelligent artificially intelligent things ever.

What I always wanted to know was after Neo defeats Smith at the end of the last movie, why did the machines keep their word and back off from Zion? They had what they wanted (smith destroyed), so why didnt they kill Neo and swoop in and destroy Zion?

Because toying with humans is fun.
Seriously - that explains everything. The whole bio-battery story is just a front - the machines need humans to not get bored ;)

Because toying with humans is fun.
Seriously - that explains everything. The whole bio-battery story is just a front - the machines need humans to not get bored ;)

You could be right there - its the only explanation that makes any sense whatsoever.

You could be right there - its the only explanation that makes any sense whatsoever.

Robots having a sense of fun makes sense?

Robots having a sense of fun makes sense?

Well, they do supposedly have AI, so I suppose something approximating it could be programmed in.

You could be right there - its the only explanation that makes any sense whatsoever.

Well, unless you count 'IITS' as an explaination.

Well, unless you count 'IITS' as an explaination.

IITS?
Que?

IITS?
Que?

The reason silly plot contrivances happen.

It's
In
The
Script

The reason silly plot contrivances happen.

It's
In
The
Script

Excellent. Acronyms are fun.