NationStates Jolt Archive

You must be a fortune teller because that's exactly what I'm about to do right now.



We celebrate Black History month because black people didn't choose to come here. We 'white people' dragged their asses across the ocean and forced them to live in slavery for over a century and then weren't granted equal rights until the late 1960's. There are still savage backwooded places that don't see that, or are willing to ignore that.

No one ignores the rest of history during February, and to you 'reverse discrimation folk', we don't give black people our money and homes for the month/give up any of our rights.

This is month is a little way of saying:

"Thanks black people for taking all the shit we've done to you, and still are, in stride. Through all that you still managed to provide the world with great things and this our way of saying we're sorry.

^-^
-White People"

In short.

America has Black History Month because we gave them the shaft. I would like to see Native Americans get a little more help, because that's the one thing our history likes to look right through.

There is no such thing as 'objective' history unless you've lived it yourself. Otherwise your going someone else's word, which you always have to take with a grain of salt.


Casino concessions mean that our debt to the indians is bought and paid for and gone.

Casino concessions mean that our debt to the native americans is bought and paid for and gone.

That's a ridiculous position to take.

The Office of Wilgrove does not recognize "Black History Month" until all other ethnicity and race have their own month.

Dictated, not read.

Especially the native Americans... and especially the "latin" Americans.

That's a ridiculous position to take.

I disagree, we've granted them an extraordinary and singular opportunity to prosper and thrive, and by doing so have made up for our repression of them.


Apologies and holidays are hollow, we've done real and substantial things to make good.

You remind me of those people on both sides of my family who inform me constantly that I ought to hate the British for crimes against either the Boerevolk or Greece. Frankly, my answer for them rarely varies - I just tell them to get lost, to put it mildly.

Equating my urging "empathy" with hating the british...You'll pardon me not seeing the link...


What would they be then? I honestly dont know..

Nubia, which apparently controlled Egypt at one stage, leading to at least one 'black' Pharaoe, is the one that comes to mind. Again its a long time ago, but they did exist. Benin was quite a local (African) power more recently, I think.


I still don't see the point in engaging in a month long distraction other than to indoctrinate kids.......of course that's the whole point of public education anyway, so I don't know why I would expect anything different...

Unlike 'homeschooling', of course.


What does being Irish have to do with being black?...

Because at one stage the Irish were treated like shit too, though 'blacks' had it worse, and without hope of escape either. Obviously the whole "Do unto others.."thing is lost on a great many here.


I as a "white person" did nothing to the current generation of "black people" that I need to apologize for...

Nobody said you did, at least on this thread. The fact that some fuckwit may have done so IRL is no reason to dismiss the concept of "Black History month".


I get tired of the entitlement crowd and I don't think they are going away any time soon if we keep saying "oh, we white people suck and you black people have a hard time....we are so sorry, here's special treatment"
...

Yet you get "special treatment" by being allowed homeschool. Theres some that would be entirely against that for a number of reasons, particularily with regard to social cohesion.

I feel sad as to what is taught during history lessons in my country. It is racist, culturally genocidal and bias.

A man who slaughtered the native population back in the 1860's not only is not marked as a monster, but rather elevated to a place of highest honors, his face on the 100 peso bill, the top (and possibly the most important) bill in the nation.
Natives down south have been on a legal fight with Benneton, a huge corporation, over land rights for the past twenty years. No one gives a shit.
It makes me sick.

Unlike 'homeschooling', of course.
all education is indoctrination in some way, I don't trust what the government is selling.



Because at one stage the Irish were treated like shit too, though 'blacks' had it worse, and without hope of escape either. Obviously the whole "Do unto others.."thing is lost on a great many here.
because my ancestors were treated like crap, does not mean that I deserve any apology or that anyone in the current generation need feel guilty over it.



Nobody said you did, at least on this thread. The fact that some fuckwit may have done so IRL is no reason to dismiss the concept of "Black History month".
except for the guy I quoted? you can read right?



Yet you get "special treatment" by being allowed homeschool. Theres some that would be entirely against that for a number of reasons, particularily with regard to social cohesion.
I have a constitutional right to homeschool in my state. Exercising ones constitutional rights is not special treatment.

There was a time a few years back when you'd keep running into these Black History Month beggars outside of subway stations in Toronto. Thing was, they were out there for two to three months at a time, harassing commuters twice daily with their fact binders and outstretched palms.

Talk about suspect - everybody knew these guys were just opportunistic panhandlers, trying (and failing) to appear legitimate and/or inconspicuous.

I as a "white person" did nothing to the current generation of "black people" that I need to apologize for. I get tired of the entitlement crowd and I don't think they are going away any time soon if we keep saying "oh, we white people suck and you black people have a hard time....we are so sorry, here's special treatment"

You don't feel bad while black people still suffer under a horifficly imposed heirarchy. See below.

When a lot of white people admit they won't vote for Obama in 08 because he's black, you have a problem.

When a lot of black people admit they won't vote for Obama in 08 because he's black, you have a fucking problem.

Until racism gets offset, yes they do deserve special treatment because in America 70% of the prison populace is a minority, mostly black. The worst schools in the country are in predominantly black urban centers.

And you have a problem because there's a month named "Black History Month"?

White History isn't given a month because it's given the rest of the year.

Race exists, and ought to be debated in both biology and citizenship classes
No it doesn’t. The only differences between the races are man made.

all education is indoctrination in some way, I don't trust what the government is selling. .

And others might not trust what you yourself profer.



because my ancestors were treated like crap, does not mean that I deserve any apology or that anyone in the current generation need feel guilty over it.
.

Its rectification rather than apology. Injustice is not nessecarily reversed overnight.




except for the guy I quoted? you can read right?.

Indeed I can. Therefore - dismissing the idea of a black history month because somebody gave you a hard time IRL and on-line is rather self centered and weak.


I have a constitutional right to homeschool in my state. Exercising ones constitutional rights is not special treatment.

Some argue it is, and that not having a similar school experience for all a nations children creates division in society.

You don't feel bad while black people still suffer under a horifficly imposed heirarchy. See below.

When a lot of white people admit they won't vote for Obama in 08 because he's black, you have a problem.

When a lot of black people admit they won't vote for Obama in 08 because he's black, you have a fucking problem.

Until racism gets offset, yes they do deserve special treatment because in America 70% of the prison populace is a minority, mostly black. The worst schools in the country are in predominantly black urban centers.

And you have a problem because there's a month named "Black History Month"?

White History isn't given a month because it's given the rest of the year.

Indeed Sir, indeed.

You don't feel bad while black people still suffer under a horifficly imposed heirarchy. See below.

When a lot of white people admit they won't vote for Obama in 08 because he's black, you have a problem.

When a lot of black people admit they won't vote for Obama in 08 because he's black, you have a fucking problem.

Until racism gets offset, yes they do deserve special treatment because in America 70% of the prison populace is a minority, mostly black. The worst schools in the country are in predominantly black urban centers.

And you have a problem because there's a month named "Black History Month"?

White History isn't given a month because it's given the rest of the year.

Don't you think that segregating history out is giving more fire to the racists?

I don't separate history out by race when teaching it because race doesn't matter, we are all the same.

I don't think that "racism" is a cause for most of the things you pointed out, Obama aside, most of those problems stem from poverty, and it's a hard cycle to break, I think it we spent more time trying to figure out how to help people break the cycle of poverty and less trying to teach white kids to feel guilty then some of that might change.

Don't you just love how it takes exactly one month to say "We're sorry"?

And others might not trust what you yourself profer.
and it's really none of your business what I teach my kids is it?


Its rectification rather than apology. Injustice is not nessecarily reversed overnight.
and it will be by learning "Black History"?

Indeed I can. Therefore - dismissing the idea of a black history month because somebody gave you a hard time IRL and on-line is rather self centered and weak.
I am self centered and weak for using my own personal experiences to form my own personal opinions........wow.

Some argue it is, and that not having a similar school experience for all a nations children creates division in society.
everyone is different, everyone has different needs. I have a constitutional right in my state to homeschool my children (who by the way would not be served well by the public school system) and so by exercising a right that everyone has I am not getting special treatment.

Don't you think that segregating history out is giving more fire to the racists?

Does it matter how fired up the racists are?

I don't separate history out by race when teaching it because race doesn't matter, we are all the same.

Biologically, I agree, height has more of a difference than race.

Socially, we are no where near the same. Not a human alive is 'color blind' so to speak and everyone makes prejudice judgements, no matter how small, and furtherly marginalized by common sense they are. It still is a big factor in social behavior.

I don't think that "racism" is a cause for most of the things you pointed out, Obama aside, most of those problems stem from poverty, and it's a hard cycle to break, I think it we spent more time trying to figure out how to help people break the cycle of poverty and less trying to teach white kids to feel guilty then some of that might change.

Black history month does not cause, nor further poverty in any way.

Actually the name alone has promoted more prominant figures to step up and donate to less fortunate blacks. And the idea is to help kids, who believe it or not see race, marginalize their prejudices. The same people who will grow up and with less inclinations towards negative prejudices, will recognize the social barrier as exactly that.

And I'm all for a Help Level Poverty Month, but it isn't as catchy.

Does it matter how fired up the racists are?
it does around here.

Black history month does not cause, nor further poverty in any way.
around here it furthers the attitude that keeps the black people in poverty.

and it's really none of your business what I teach my kids is it?.

Well...if its indoctrinating them with the idea that, for instance, Allah wants them to blow up supermarkets, I'd imagine somebody would object. Also, there would be the question of social integration etc.



and it will be by learning "Black History" ?.

A small part yes. Obviously that doesnt take into account whingers such as yourself, but thats the general idea.



I am self centered and weak for using my own personal experiences to form my own personal opinions........wow.

The fact that one dog bit you neither means that all dogs will bite, or that all dogs will bite you. You seem to think everybodys experience is the same as yours.Hence "self centred".


everyone is different, everyone has different needs.

Including 'black people', but - at least according to you - this should not extend to a history month.

around here it furthers the attitude that keeps the black people in poverty.

According to you it does.

Well...if its indoctrinating them with the idea that, for instance, Allah wants them to blow up supermarkets, I'd imagine somebody would object. Also, there would be the question of social integration etc.
I am pretty sure my kids would get along better in social situations than you do.


A small part yes. Obviously that doesnt take into account whingers such as yourself, but thats the general idea.
what the hell is a whinger?


The fact that one dog bit you neither means that all dogs will bite, or that all dogs will bite you. You seem to think everybodys experience is the same as yours.Hence "self centred".
:rolleyes:


Including 'black people', but - at least according to you - this should not extend to a history month.
it should not, there isn't any coherent reason why it should.

According to you it does.

which is why............(pay attention)


it's my own personal opinion

which is why............(pay attention)


it's my own personal opinion

Hmmmm, but as your opinion seems greatly influenced by the fact that somebody gave you a hard time in school, in at least one instance, you'll pardon me treating it with a grain or two of salt.

Hmmmm, but as your opinion seems greatly influenced by the fact that somebody gave you a hard time in school, in at least one instance, you'll pardon me treating it with a grain or two of salt.

and since your opinion seems to stem from your white guilt you will offer me the same courtesy?

I am pretty sure my kids would get along better in social situations than you do. .

Perhaps, perhaps not. I was speaking of general concerns. The last thing I was expecting was your psychic powers to show you that I am unable to depart the house for fear of others.



what the hell is a whinger?.

whinge
(informal) complain, whine, especially repeated complaining about minor things (e.g. "Stop whinging" meaning "stop complaining"); a different word from whine, originated in Scottish and Northern English in the 12th century. Hence whinger (derogatory), someone who complains a lot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_words_not_widely_used_in_the_United_States#W



it should not, there isn't any coherent reason why it should.

Hmmmm ,telling people in an emphasised way that their predecessors did more than fall off the slave ship would generally be a good thing, I would have thought.

what the hell is a whinger?



i think the G is silent...



but back on topic. You lose a whole lot of respect when you have someone of a "different race" pull a gun on you and rob you.

black history month doesn't bother me, but i see no reason why it's special either.

What DOES bother me is ppl thinking that black ppl deserve more respect and courtesy just because of slavery and their current status. I know it's hard being poor, hell i was poor (still am to the most extent, but well off compared to what i was)

reverse discrimination does exist. And it's a sad thing.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I was speaking of general concerns. The last thing I was expecting was your psychic powers to show you that I am unable to depart the house for fear of others.
why not? you use your ignorance based bias to judge homeschooling and homeschoolers.



Hmmmm ,telling people in an emphasised way that their predecessors did more than fall off the slave ship would generally be a good thing, I would have thought.

why would they care?

i think the G is silent...



but back on topic. You lose a whole lot of respect when you have someone of a "different race" pull a gun on you and rob you.

black history month doesn't bother me, but i see no reason why it's special either.

What DOES bother me is ppl thinking that black ppl deserve more respect and courtesy just because of slavery and their current status. I know it's hard being poor, hell i was poor (still am to the most extent, but well off compared to what i was)

reverse discrimination does exist. And it's a sad thing.

:)

I was very poor growing up, I ended up homeless more than once, I know it sucks, and it's hard to get out of that cycle when you are living hand to mouth paycheck to paycheck. it's not a black and white thing though, it's a people thing.

and since your opinion seems to stem from your white guilt you will offer me the same courtesy?

I feel no guilt about it whatsoever. Youy don't need guilt to think that something might be the right thing to do. Is it a 'christian' thing to need guilt to motivate oneself?

I feel no guilt about it whatsoever. Youy don't need guilt to think that something might be the right thing to do. Is it a 'christian' thing to need guilt to motivate oneself?
:rolleyes:

Don't you just love how it takes exactly one month to say "We're sorry"?

i will never say sorry for something that happen way before i was born

i will never say sorry for something that happen way before i was born

Neither will I. :)

why not? you use your ignorance based bias to judge homeschooling and homeschoolers. ?

Actually I'm fairly indifferent, thus my use of "some".

"The National Education Association, the nation's largest teachers union, has long lobbied against home schooling, passing a yearly resolution that says "home schooling programs cannot provide the student with a comprehensive education experience."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/08/13/b2s.homeschool/index.html



why would they care?

You said earlier
I know my own cultural background quite well, I know why my family came here, I know how they were treated when they got here, I even know why they chose to change our surname.

Are you saying now that 'black' people wouldnt have the same interest/concerns?

what's your opinion of the black ppl demanding reparation(sp) for slavery?

Actually I'm fairly indifferent, thus my use of "some".

"The National Education Association, the nation's largest teachers union, has long lobbied against home schooling, passing a yearly resolution that says "home schooling programs cannot provide the student with a comprehensive education experience."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/08/13/b2s.homeschool/index.html

you really think that a teacher's union is going to have an unbiased view of homeschooling?





Are you saying now that 'black' people wouldnt have the same interest/concerns?
maybe they should research it.

you really think that a teacher's union is going to have an unbiased view of homeschooling?.

Perhaps as 'unbiased' as a homeschooler has of public education.




maybe they should research it.

Perhaps they've no idea theres something to research.....

Perhaps as 'unbiased' as a homeschooler has of public education.

I have dealt with more public school crap than most. Thanks though.

I have dealt with more public school crap than most. Thanks though.

Yes, thats the "dogs biting" thing I was on about earlier...

Yes, thats the "dogs biting" thing I was on about earlier...

if a dog bit me, do you expect me to put my kids in the yard with the same dog?

besides, my personal experiences will always influence my personal opinions, if you have a problem with that I guess you are going to have to get over it.

if a dog bit me, do you expect me to put my kids in the yard with the same dog?

besides, my personal experiences will always influence my personal opinions, if you have a problem with that I guess you are going to have to get over it.

What you do is one thing, allowing it to affect others is the problem. Likewise taking out resentment on black history month. Its kneejerk emotional reasoning. As is expecting an attitude to be formed from guilt, rather than reason.

Don't you think that segregating history out is giving more fire to the racists?

that isn't what is happening

What you do is one thing, allowing it to affect others is the problem. Likewise taking out resentment on black history month. Its kneejerk emotional reasoning. As is expecting an attitude to be formed from guilt, rather than reason.

how is my resentment going to affect anyone?

how is my resentment going to affect anyone?


Well its kept your children out of school, and by trying to pass off your views on black history as reasoned, you contribute to an attitude against it.

I'm glad we don't have this shit in British schools. It's bad enough already with all the PC crap that infects the educational system. We certainly don't need anything like this.

You're referring to the Cro-magnids I believe, survivors of the Upper Paleolithic age. The leptomorphic Indo-Europeans pretty much migrated into Europe, some adapting to the Northern climate, others to the southern one (which is why some Northern Europeans look like depigmented mediterraneans, and not stocky northerners, as well as some mediterraneans looking "northern" in build). Many modern Western Europeans are a mix of CM and Indo-European, with varying proportions of each.

well assuming that haplogroup R1a1 is rightfully associated with the indo-european speakers, they really only got into eastern europe and part of scandanavia. it doesn't exist in any significant levels among the populations of wester europe - they are almost entirely derived from the iberian and balkan ice age refugia. there is also some secondary spread by the vikings more recently.


Indo-europeans are considered to be a genetically close group, especially in anthropometric terms. Naturally, most modern Arabs, Iranians (specifically Persians), Indians (the exception being North Indians) and Egyptians have little to do with Europeans, given centuries of interbreeding with others, but in ancient times the similarity was far greater.

yeah, but the ancient non-european civilizations weren't populated by proto-indo-europeans. and the genetic data we have on them groups them differently too.

Well its kept your children out of school, and by trying to pass off your views on black history as reasoned, you contribute to an attitude against it.

My personal opinion about black history hasn't kept my kids out of school.

that isn't what is happening

According to who? You? Yeah, wouldn't have expected that :rolleyes:

According to who? You? Yeah, wouldn't have expected that :rolleyes:

is it your contention that racism has increased in the united states over the past five decades or so?
or is it your contention that black history month has removed bits of history that were already included, and pushed them off to the side?

cause neither of those positions seem very reasonable.

it does around here.

Welcome to the 21st century, I suggest your area joins us.


around here it furthers the attitude that keeps the black people in poverty.

Honestly, in an area where what Racists think is a concern, then Black History Month isn't the only thing keeping blacks in poverty.

As for black people demanding reperations. *long hard sigh*

While we do owe them some sort of repayment. Just flat out handing every person of African descent cash wouldn't help at all, if anything it might just worsen matters.

"Alright, crack here I come!" -Tyrone Biggums

I would support larger social programs, and much better funding for urban schools. Not just black neighborhoods, but better public education in general. More funding to secondary schools would also help as most impoverished people drop out. What's the use of a high school degree when you don't go anywhere afterwards aside from the same job you would have when you drop out?

A better drug policy. The reason why America has such a high incarceration rate is because of these shitty policies that'll lock a man up for selling weed. Probably the most harmless illegal substance on earth. (Assuming the batch wasn't mixed with anything harmful). Shifting all that money from enforcement to treatment would do a lot more for urban communities anyway.

I'm glad we don't have this shit in British schools. It's bad enough already with all the PC crap that infects the educational system. We certainly don't need anything like this.

Blame the parents who are too lazy to tell their kids not to respect other people's beliefs so they have the school do it. It's these irresponsible pricks who want to put all the burden of parenting onto the school and then get pissed when they don't teach what they want their kid to know.

Your theory assumes that entire cultures were just "lazy", which is ludicrous at best and dangerous at worst.
My "theory" assumes nothing of the sort. I am just curious for the mere fact that even with the best of conditions given to them, certain individuals could still make bad choices - and no, I do not mean Africans.

I urge you to read. Refute what you read, if you can, but read and discover for yourself.
I will.

Equating my urging "empathy" with hating the british...You'll pardon me not seeing the link...
Your reasoning was based on very similar lines though; essentially, a sort of group awareness that somehow ought to make someone of Irish descent more empathic to similar groups. I fail to see why it should though - the Irish experience likely had no direct impact on Smunkee.

Well...if its indoctrinating them with the idea that, for instance, Allah wants them to blow up supermarkets, I'd imagine somebody would object. Also, there would be the question of social integration etc.
What makes you think parents are the only source of such ideas? Many disaffected youths nowadays go looking for them themselves. Sure, a parent should take any blame for harmful indoctrination, but that should be if and when it actually affects some third party.

I'm curious, what business is it of yours how Smunkee chooses to raise her children?

No it doesn’t. The only differences between the races are man made.
Delude yourself however you please, I really don't care.

is it your contention that racism has increased in the united states over the past five decades or so?
or is it your contention that black history month has removed bits of history that were already included, and pushed them off to the side?

cause neither of those positions seem very reasonable.

My contention is that you are blind to the fact you are a bigot in this discussion.

And those are two limited points which are not the only problems one could have with black history month, thus making them logical fallacies.

well assuming that haplogroup R1a1 is rightfully associated with the indo-european speakers, they really only got into eastern europe and part of scandanavia. it doesn't exist in any significant levels among the populations of wester europe - they are almost entirely derived from the iberian and balkan ice age refugia. there is also some secondary spread by the vikings more recently.
It depends on what you consider Western Europe to be. Most of the Mediterranean (including large parts of France), and to a lesser extent countries like the UK and Germany (especially southern Germany), have considerable indo-european admixtures. Most Europeans have some indo-European blood in them, in varying measures.

yeah, but the ancient non-european civilizations weren't populated by proto-indo-europeans. and the genetic data we have on them groups them differently too.
Parts of the Middle East and India were. I am not sure about Egypt though.

What I think he's saying is that blacks have made contributions, but so have other groups. Penicillin, the Constitution, cars, most electronics are the work of white and asian people overwhelmingly, but we don't have a whole month dedicated to that.

Personally, I support Black History Month for one reason, and it has nothing to do with achievement of blacks. The reason is because of all the different kinds of people who have immigrated to America, only blacks were forced here. The black experience truly is unique, for better or for worse. However, I wouldn't support a Hispanic or an Asian or a White month because all those people came here of their own free will.

Actually no not all did. There were many Asian women that were basically sold and sent here.

Also, not every black was forced here. The majority sure. But to say all is not right.

Cripes people.

I don't' get why people get so pissed off about black history month. It's not like we have government storm troopers grabbing up people and doing a clockwork orange to make them watch and or listen about black people.

People forget it was only 50 years ago that we had things like separate drinking fountains. Many black scientists, musicians, etc. were left out of the curriculum. We are quick to name Jonas Salk and yet how many people here can name the fellow who start the blood bank system? What about his contribution of plasma?

I myself never heard of the Tuskegee airmen until I saw a blip from a BH thing. I never new the name of Marian Anderson until I saw a short about her created for BH. Someone like her is worth learning about especially considering the fact she remained a decent kind hearted person after living with racism when it was really bad.

If a child can is introduced by somebody and become inspired by them, then it's more then paid for itself.

Delude yourself however you please, I really don't care.
So Europeans can be just as racist as the typical Texan. Wonderful.

So Europeans can be just as racist as the typical Texan. Wonderful.


A toast to racial purity!

http://www.mullings.com/lederhosen.jpg

And those are two limited points which are not the only problems one could have with black history month, thus making them logical fallacies.

they are the two plausible interpretations of the bit i quoted a few links back. what other meanings could you reasonably draw from the statement
Don't you think that segregating history out is giving more fire to the racists?
other than that the existence of black history month has removed previously included things from history in general and pushed them off by themselves, and that doing so has increased the hold of racism?

Black History Month: Black Americans get to hear about the contributions they've made to America, White Americans get to scream "reverse discrimination" because they don't want to hear about blacks' contributions to or suffering in America.Well,it seems that blacks want to brag about their contribution to US history, because there's not much they contributed elsewhere. I mean, how come that the expeditions into Africa in the 19th and early 20th centuries didn't come across high civilizations but just semi-nude folks dancing around little fires in prayers for weather? We are always informed that humankind has evolved in Africa. It seems Africa was too comfortable to cause further evolution of humankind there, instead all the development of humanity and civilization happened elsewhere once humans have migrated out of Africa.
And today? HIV is killing those who have not yet mastered their drive.

Hmmm. 21 pages. Can't read all of that, so if this point has been raised, sorry.

The concept of black history month, women in history, or other oppressed groups is just weird. There is a clash here.

Statement 1: We were so oppressed by you white guys, you bastards used us as slave labour and got rich on our toil, and didn't let us do anything.

Statement 2: We "insert oppressed group here" made a huge impact on your history. Everyone should know.

Recorded history is about the important people. Oppressed nobody working on plantations, or in the kitchens popping out babies, don't make much history. There are stand out individuals, but they should be studied in their rightful place in history, and not let those "we whites are discriminated against" people have something to complain against.

Despite Chris being a racist bigot, I have to agree with most of this statement.

I object to this. At least substantiate it with some sort of evidence.

they are the two plausible interpretations of the bit i quoted a few links back. what other meanings could you reasonably draw from the statement

other than that the existence of black history month has removed previously included things from history in general and pushed them off by themselves, and that doing so has increased the hold of racism?
Your "choices" are what are referred to as a "false dilemma" and I will not humor you by playing your little racist bigotry game.

I object to this. At least substantiate it with some sort of evidence.
I would but there isn't room enough to quote almost every single post you have ever made.


I myself never heard of the Tuskegee airmen until I saw a blip from a BH thing. I never new the name of Marian Anderson until I saw a short about her created for BH. Someone like her is worth learning about especially considering the fact she remained a decent kind hearted person after living with racism when it was really bad.
To be fair, you don't hear about people because they arn't worth hearing about - they didn't contribute to history. Hell, some people that did contribute to history you know neither the names or race of. Just because some one is black doesn't mean you should have to learn about them. What did Anderson contribute? She was an opera singer, congrats, who cares. Garrett Morgan is far more important.

What about Emett Chapelle? Or Allen Breed? Luis Walter Alvarez? Stan Mazor?

My personal opinion about black history hasn't kept my kids out of school.


Thats not what I stated, as no doubt you are well aware. If you don't want to deal with the facts, then don't, but your disengenuity is beginning to become tiresome.


I'm curious, what business is it of yours how Smunkee chooses to raise her children?.

I merely stated that some see it as indulging a special interest group.


Cripes people.

I don't' get why people get so pissed off about black history month. It's not like we have government storm troopers grabbing up people and doing a clockwork orange to make them watch and or listen about black people.

People forget it was only 50 years ago that we had things like separate drinking fountains. Many black scientists, musicians, etc. were left out of the curriculum. We are quick to name Jonas Salk and yet how many people here can name the fellow who start the blood bank system? What about his contribution of plasma?

I myself never heard of the Tuskegee airmen until I saw a blip from a BH thing. I never new the name of Marian Anderson until I saw a short about her created for BH. Someone like her is worth learning about especially considering the fact she remained a decent kind hearted person after living with racism when it was really bad.

If a child can is introduced by somebody and become inspired by them, then it's more then paid for itself.?.

Well said sir.

What I dont like about BHM is that they teach pretty trivial things which makes it look like they are grasping for something to brag about.

When I spend would have to spend an entire day every year learning about how George Carver developed peanut butter it would make me think "this is one of the most important thing blacks have done in history?" Not "Wow, they sure have contributed a lot."

I think BHM ends up trivializes black history.

What I dont like about BHM is that they teach pretty trivial things which makes it look like they are grasping for something to brag about.

When I spend would have to spend an entire day every year learning about how George Carver developed peanut butter it would make me think "this is one of the most important thing blacks have done in history?" Not "Wow, they sure have contributed a lot."

I think BHM ends up trivializes black history.They teach about peanut butter in BHM ? Well, then maybe BH is trivial... :rolleyes:

Thats not what I stated, as no doubt you are well aware.

Right.
Well its kept your children out of school,
Fooled me.

I think BHM ends up trivializes black history.
Seconded.

So what are "black" achievements? Ghetto culture? Drive-by shootings? Indecent hiphop lyrics?

So what are "black" achievements? Ghetto culture? Drive-by shootings? Indecent hiphop lyrics?

D'you what? Either this is deeply ironic, or you have far less self-restraint than me.:D

So what are "black" achievements? Ghetto culture? Drive-by shootings? Indecent hiphop lyrics?

Even if those were "black" "achievements" they would obviously exceed the achievements of stupid people.

So what are "black" achievements? Ghetto culture? Drive-by shootings? Indecent hiphop lyrics?

How about the first successful open heart surgery? Does that count? Maybe Percy Julian's discovery of affordable treatments for glaucoma and arthritis and the many uses he found for the soybean.

D'you what? Either this is deeply ironic, or you have far less self-restraint than me.:DSadly, this is not ironic. What else is there for a European to see about blacks in the US besides Gangstas and other folks who find it kool to be dumb?

Cripes people.

I don't' get why people get so pissed off about black history month. It's not like we have government storm troopers grabbing up people and doing a clockwork orange to make them watch and or listen about black people.

Not blatantly of course, but is being required to learn about the questionably important parts of black history without any other choice in school practically different?

Not blatantly of course, but is being required to learn about the questionably important parts of black history without any other choice in school practically different?

This debate is silly. You people are ruining my month. You guys can have March, we'll make it "White people debate Black history month" month.

How about the first successful open heart surgery? Does that count? Maybe Percy Julian's discovery of affordable treatments for glaucoma and arthritis and the many uses he found for the soybean.I'm impressed. But what's so typically "black" about this, or mainstream? So one can speak of a typically black contribution to society? Why does this have to be black history instead of just history? And what about blacks outside the US? You know, in Africa or so?

I'm impressed. But what's so typically "black" about this, or mainstream? So one can speak of a typically black contribution to society?

What is "typically black" supposed to mean?

I'm impressed. But what's so typically "black" about this, or mainstream? So one can speak of a typically black contribution to society? Why does this have to be black history instead of just history? And what about blacks outside the US? You know, in Africa or so?

Typically black? So if he doesn't wear his pants halfway down his ass, drink a 40 and talk in ebonics a black person isn't "typically black" and his achievements don't count?

What is "typically black" supposed to mean?I'm not sure. I suppose since there is a Black History Month there must be something that makes "black" a distinctive feature (besides skin color, you know). However, it seems there is a correlation between skin color and certain stereotypical behavior in the US.

So Europeans can be just as racist as the typical Texan. Wonderful.
And even more so.

However, I am not racist. You're conflating recognition of the existence of biological differences between groups with discrimination towards, and even hatred of, other groups. I hold no such prejudices. I recognise that women and men are different - it does not follow from this that I hate women though. Denying reality as certain gender feminists do though is not part of my lifeplan.


I merely stated that some see it as indulging a special interest group.
At no cost to anyone else. In fact, I consider those individuals that make up this 'some' to be the special interest group, dictating to others how they ought to order their affairs. As far as I am concerned, in the majority of cases it is interventionists who are the special interest groups.

Sadly, this is not ironic. What else is there for a European to see about blacks in the US besides Gangstas and other folks who find it kool to be dumb?

Try living in the UK. :(

Roman style decimation does have its appeal at times.

I'm not sure. I suppose since there is a Black History Month there must be something that makes "black" a distinctive feature (besides skin color, you know).

Skin color served to keep them separate and oppressed for a very long time. In some cases even today.

I'm not sure. I suppose since there is a Black History Month there must be something that makes "black" a distinctive feature (besides skin color, you know).

Not really, no. We've got a lot of melanin, that's about it.

Not really, no. We've got a lot of melanin, that's about it.
Then what is a Black History Month really about? And is it just about blacks in the US or blacks as synonymous to Africans and Dravidians?

What I dont like about BHM is that they teach pretty trivial things which makes it look like they are grasping for something to brag about.

When I spend would have to spend an entire day every year learning about how George Carver developed peanut butter it would make me think "this is one of the most important thing blacks have done in history?" Not "Wow, they sure have contributed a lot."

I think BHM ends up trivializes black history.

I think you just trivialized peanut butter. I love peanut butter. It's one of the greatest foods I've ever eaten. :)

I'm not sure. I suppose since there is a Black History Month there must be something that makes "black" a distinctive feature (besides skin color, you know). However, it seems there is a correlation between skin color and certain stereotypical behavior in the US.
Afro-americans are not as genetically distinct from their white counterparts as say a European and an African might be (and even then the difference is not as large as is often claimed). Add to that that many Americans are of mixed descent, and the lines further blur. What makes the black experience in the US unique (sort of) is that their skin colour served as grounds for discrimination and heinous crimes against their person. That is what makes being black a distinctive feature.

My personal view is that this should be taught as a section of a history course, as well integrating serious discussions on race in citizenship and biology courses, thus rendering things such as the BHM obsolete.

Then what is a Black History Month really about? And is it just about blacks in the US or blacks as synonymous to Africans and Dravidians?

The history of and relating to people with a lot of melanin.

P.S. And generally americans, but that's the standard America-centric bias, nothing special about that.

Skin color served to keep them separate and oppressed for a very long time. In some cases even today.
Black people wern't the only ones oppressed but they are the only people with a month where everyone has to learn about the achievements of the same two people every year.

Oh Yessa Massa, I amma sure ready ta be learned about black folk.

Black people wern't the only ones oppressed but they are the only people with a month where everyone has to learn about the achievements of the same two people every year.

We somehow related Thanksgiving to Native Americans, so that about covers that.

The rest of the year, we get to learn about George Washington and Abraham Lincoln.

How about the first successful open heart surgery? Does that count? Maybe Percy Julian's discovery of affordable treatments for glaucoma and arthritis and the many uses he found for the soybean.

In regard to the two medical advances, somebody else would have done them had they not.

However, Black culture must be accountable for "Gangsta", "HipHop", "R n' B" and other such forms of ear rape.

In regard to the two medical advances, somebody else would have done them had they not.

However, Black culture must be accountable for "Gangsta", "HipHop", "R n' B" and other such forms of ear rape.

Presumably you have some kind of logic behind this? I mean, I can't just right-click and 'view page source' here and see how your logic is coded, so you'll have to explain.

In regard to the two medical advances, somebody else would have done them had they not.
That is ridiculous. Are you the sort of person who believes that had Shakespeare not existed, "History" would simply have produced another like him?

So what are "black" achievements? Ghetto culture?

Actually Italians and Poles had that before them.

Drive-by shootings?
The Mob did it before them.

Indecent hiphop lyrics?
Hmmm?

What about the white person who gave us Barney?

That is ridiculous. Are you the sort of person who believes that had Shakespeare not existed, "History" would simply have produced another like him?

"Comments about a million monkeys on a million typewriters are forbidden"

No?

In regard to the two medical advances, somebody else would have done them had they not.

However, Black culture must be accountable for "Gangsta", "HipHop", "R n' B" and other such forms of ear rape.

Someone else would have made gangsta rap had it not been "black culture."

According to your own logic.

Sorry, don't mind me, go back to hating on black people.

In regard to the two medical advances, somebody else would have done them had they not.

However, Black culture must be accountable for "Gangsta", "HipHop", "R n' B" and other such forms of ear rape.

Yeah, and maybe some African would have invented the airplane if the Wright brothers had not, but the Wright brothers did it first and got the credit. The black surgeon and chemist who made those discoveries I mentioned deserve credit too.

You've got to be kidding me. "I can't stand that music therefore the N*****s are inferior" is kind of a stupid point of view.

The history of and relating to people with a lot of melanin.

P.S. And generally americans, but that's the standard America-centric bias, nothing special about that.In recent years I have dealt with Rastafarians a lot, and they always brag about alleged "black" achievements in ancient times. But whenever I asked for any evidence they only come up with accusations against some "white" revision of history.

We somehow related Thanksgiving to Native Americans, so that about covers that.
Not really. Thanksgiving is more of a celebration of one tiny European settlement not starving to death in the cold.

The rest of the year, we get to learn about George Washington and Abraham Lincoln.
Figure heads of important times in history. If there was no black history month, we would still learn about Martin Luther King Jr.

In recent years I have dealt with Rastafarians a lot, and they always brag about alleged "black" achievements in ancient times. But whenever I asked for any evidence they only come up with accusations against some "white" revision of history.

I'm sorry you seem to think we're all rastas.


I, personally, am a Pastafarian.

That is ridiculous. Are you the sort of person who believes that had Shakespeare not existed, "History" would simply have produced another like him?

Very few figures in history make a contribution that others could not have replicated. Had Caesar not crossed the Rubicon, others would have done in later years, whilst, had Lenin not seized power in October 1917, it is undeniable that a popular socialist revolution would have followed.

In any case, the proposition is not ridiculous. In the modern era, information is publicised to the extent that, had one doctor not developed and performed open heart surgery, the technique would have been developed by another.

What about the white person who gave us Barney?Aargh! Indeed. All whites should be be punished with death for that. :sniper:

Not really. Thanksgiving is more of a celebration of one tiny European settlement not starving to death in the cold.


Figure heads of important times in history. If there was no black history month, we would still learn about Martin Luther King Jr.

I'm hoping you didn't take that particular post for serious....

Someone else would have made gangsta rap had it not been "black culture."

According to your own logic.

Sorry, don't mind me, go back to hating on black people.

Of course not, moron.

Where does "Gangsta" music, and thus culture, derive from? Indeed, where does all such music find its roots? Jazz, which, inoffensive and quite nice in itself, nonetheless facilitated all later musical developments.

Of course not, moron.

Where does "Gangsta" music, and thus culture, derive from? Indeed, where does all such music find its roots? Jazz, which, inoffensive and quite nice in itself, nonetheless facilitated all later musical developments.

...Sorry, I'm still not following how melanin made us capable of this musical feat?

I'm just an African immigrant but I really want to know when a white person sees an African American (of slave decent) what goes on your mind? Is it A. "Man, I feel so sorry for him and his kind because my ancestors screwed them over, better look away." B."Oh man, there goes a hoodlum out to rob me, man, why can't they get a freaking job or something? Better not make an eye contact." or C. "Man I'm late for the office party, better ask this gentleman where to buy some chips and beverages."

I'm sorry you seem to think we're all rastas.Oh, I've heard that not just from Rastas, but from a number of Africans, and one American (so far).

Yeah, and maybe some African would have invented the airplane if the Wright brothers had not, but the Wright brothers did it first and got the credit. The black surgeon and chemist who made those discoveries I mentioned deserve credit too.

You've got to be kidding me. "I can't stand that music therefore the N*****s are inferior" is kind of a stupid point of view.

How would an African have invented the airplane? Prayed to the wind god?

My assertions were based on probabability, derived from extant historical knowledge, which suggests that no tribal shaman could invent an airplane.

However, Black culture must be accountable for "Gangsta", "HipHop", "R n' B" and other such forms of ear rape.

Just like white culture needs to be held accountable for their forms of ear rape known as country music, the banjo, and the Osmonds.

How would an African have invented the airplane? Prayed to the wind god?

My assertions were based on probabability, derived from extant historical knowledge, which suggests that no tribal shaman could invent an airplane.

Not all Africans are tribal shamen or pray to the wind, moron.

...Sorry, I'm still not following how melanin made us capable of this musical feat?

It doesn't, however, neither does it change the fact that musical trends do bear out this suggestion.

How would an African have invented the airplane? Prayed to the wind god?

My assertions were based on probabability, derived from extant historical knowledge, which suggests that no tribal shaman could invent an airplane.

Are you simply a cracker or you just trying to annoy people?

...Sorry, I'm still not following how melanin made us capable of this musical feat?

Come on now. You know you folks got rhythm. You all dance good too.

"Comments about a million monkeys on a million typewriters are forbidden"

No?
I don't follow.

How would an African have invented the airplane? Prayed to the wind god?

My assertions were based on probabability, derived from extant historical knowledge, which suggests that no tribal shaman could invent an airplane.

Be careful, or I'll pray to Nu-un'*clickclick*malamaka-Ma And have you turned into a peice of furniture. Cuz, you know, that's the sort of thing all we black people do.

Black History Month is celebrated here in Canada as well. June 21st is National Aboriginal Day. We also have Asian Heritage Month which is in May... but hardly anyone notices that... :p

How would an African have invented the airplane? Prayed to the wind god?

My assertions were based on probabability, derived from extant historical knowledge, which suggests that no tribal shaman could invent an airplane.

Your assertions were pulled out of your ass. You refuse to give credit to two black men who accomplished some impressive feats first solely because they're black. What's your beef? Did a black dude steal your girlfriend?

I'm just an African immigrant but I really want to know when a white person sees an African American (of slave decent) what goes on your mind? Is it A. "Man, I feel so sorry for him and his kind because my ancestors screwed them over, better look away." B."Oh man, there goes a hoodlum out to rob me, man, why can't they get a freaking job or something? Better not make an eye contact." or C. "Man I'm late for the office party, better ask this gentleman where to buy some chips and beverages."
Probably, simply "there goes another human being." It all depends on attire etc, of course, but all else being equal, that would be my thought.

Just like white culture needs to be held accountable for their forms of ear rape known as country music, the banjo, and the Osmonds.

I like some country music and I love the banjo.

I'm just an African immigrant but I really want to know when a white person sees an African American (of slave decent) what goes on your mind? Is it A. "Man, I feel so sorry for him and his kind because my ancestors screwed them over, better look away." B."Oh man, there goes a hoodlum out to rob me, man, why can't they get a freaking job or something? Better not make an eye contact." or C. "Man I'm late for the office party, better ask this gentleman where to buy some chips and beverages."

A almost never, B when I'm back in the ghetto doing volunteer work and get approached by someone wearing gang colors, and C when I'm late for an office party.

Basically, my reaction is very context-dependent. For the most part, I just don't give a damn if someone has dark skin. I grew up around African-American folks, so I generally have a high comfort level with dark-skinned people.

I don't follow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem

Very few figures in history make a contribution that others could not have replicated. Had Caesar not crossed the Rubicon, others would have done in later years, whilst, had Lenin not seized power in October 1917, it is undeniable that a popular socialist revolution would have followed.
I do not believe so. In many cases these individuals were the driving force behind events unfolding. You might be a tad more correct when it comes to contributions to science, but I maintain that any achievement is always in large part due to individual effort.

Of course not, moron.

Ooh, that helps your argument.

Not that "i hate black people" is really an argument.


Where does "Gangsta" music, and thus culture, derive from? Indeed, where does all such music find its roots? Jazz, which, inoffensive and quite nice in itself, nonetheless facilitated all later musical developments.

What's the point of this? Yes, things have causes. Do you imagine this somehow refutes anything I've said? Explain how.

How would an African have invented the airplane? Prayed to the wind god?

They would have invented it in pretty much the exact same way an American would have.

My assertions were based on probabability, derived from extant historical knowledge, which suggests that no tribal shaman could invent an airplane.

No, your assertions are based on bigotry, derived from your own asshole, which suggests that all Africans are (and can never be anything but) tribal shamans.

I like some country music and I love the banjo.

Now if you mention accordion music then we can't talk anymore! :p

I do not believe so. In many cases these individuals were the driving force behind events unfolding. You might be a tad more correct when it comes to contributions to science, but I maintain that any achievement is always in large part due to individual effort.

Top Down History rides again!!!!!

The Republic was in turmoil long before Caesar, whilst The Provisional Government was essentially fucked upon its accession. Lenin facilitated the Bolshevik coup, however, he did not create the revolutionary pre-conditions that emperilled the Provisonal government.

Be careful, or I'll pray to Nu-un'*clickclick*malamaka-Ma And have you turned into a peice of furniture. Cuz, you know, that's the sort of thing all we black people do.

I daresay, in the early 1900's, the majority of Africans were still in some form of Tribalism.

I did not suggest that it is now, nor was it implicit.

Top Down History rides again!!!!!

The Republic was in turmoil long before Caesar, whilst The Provisional Government was essentially fucked upon its accession. Lenin facilitated the Bolshevik coup, however, he did not create the revolutionary pre-conditions that emperilled the Provisonal government.

You are a simple minded fool. Lenin WAS the bolshevik revolution. Grabted the provisional government would not have lasted, but any number of groups could have taken control, Mencheviks, Social revolutionaries, even a return of the Tsarists. If there was no Lenin the Bolsheviks wouldn't have taken control. Full stop. Someone else would have done.

Top Down History rides again!!!!!

The Republic was in turmoil long before Caesar, whilst The Provisional Government was essentially fucked upon its accession. Lenin facilitated the Bolshevik coup, however, he did not create the revolutionary pre-conditions that emperilled the Provisonal government.
The individuals in question served as catalysts. It is foolish to simply assume in their absence that another would arise to take their place, when there is no way of even testing such a proposition.

The individuals in question served as catalysts. It is foolish to simply assume in their absence that another would arise to take their place, when there is no way of even testing such a proposition.

Inherent problem with counterfactual history, however, Pompey was equally as capable and ambitious as Caesar, whilst the Social Revolutionaries would have assumed power in 1917 had Lenin not acted in October. Lenin did not revolutionise Russia.

Inherent problem with counterfactual history, however, Pompey was equally as capable and ambitious as Caesar, whilst the Social Revolutionaries would have assumed power in 1917 had Lenin not acted in October. Lenin did not revolutionise Russia.

Which is what I said. You however stated that the Bolsheviks would have taken power without Lenin. Do you now admit you were wrong in that statement?

Inherent problem with counterfactual history, however, Pompey was equally as capable and ambitious as Caesar, whilst the Social Revolutionaries would have assumed power in 1917 had Lenin not acted in October. Lenin did not revolutionise Russia.
In which case the resultant changes might've been immensely different to what would've occured had say Caesar or Lenin taken power. These things cannot be measured simply because the alternative never occured to inform us otherwise. At best, to say that in Caesar's or Lenin's absence the exact same would occur is a guess, and a bloody daft one I might add.

In Economics, this is in fact considered to be a fallacy - stating, for instance, that due to Microsoft's "monopoly" in the software market, better alternatives are forgone. This cannot be proven though, so again it amounts to a guess.

You are a simple minded fool. Lenin WAS the bolshevik revolution. Grabted the provisional government would not have lasted, but any number of groups could have taken control, Mencheviks, Social revolutionaries, even a return of the Tsarists. If there was no Lenin the Bolsheviks wouldn't have taken control. Full stop. Someone else would have done.

That was precisely what I said. Do you find illiteracy difficult?

In any case, what are "Tsarists"? Or Mencheviks? Mensheviks I've heard of, and Right wing monarchists, but not what you suggest.

I can assure you I'm a better Russian historian than you.

Black History month was only created to alleviate the collective "white guilt", nothing else.

No, it was instituted to increase it.

Black History Month quite probably is an exuse for individuals to speak about some of the more mediocre heros of African American background.

In all honesty I learn more about great African American leaders and visionaries in my Canadian history class then during Black History Month.

:)

Anyways it seems like a lot of hoopla for nothing though who realy cares it's not like February got changed to Martin Luther King month or something?
Oh and what white guilt -maybe southern guilt- my ancestors were on the norths side.

The Perpetually Annoyed One (At Uninformed Liberals) :headbang:

That was precisely what I said. Do you find illiteracy difficult?

In any case, what are "Tsarists"? Or Mencheviks? Mensheviks I've heard of, and Right wing monarchists, but not what you suggest.

I can assure you I'm a better Russian historian than you.

No it was not. Do YOU find literacy difficult? You stated that the Bolsheviks would still have taken power without Lenin. And if you don't understand the commonly used term "Tsarist" you are not much of a Russian Historian.

The Perpetually Annoyed One (At Uninformed Liberals) :headbang:

Wilgrove, a liberal? Uniformed maybe, but still...

Which is what I said. You however stated that the Bolsheviks would have taken power without Lenin. Do you now admit you were wrong in that statement?

NO I FUCKING DIDN'T!:mad:

Are you genuinely retarded?

Prior to Lenin's return in April, the Bolshevik party represented one of a number of revolutionary parties that followed the Petrograd Soviet slavishly.

NO I FUCKING DIDN'T!:mad:

Are you genuinely retarded?

Prior to Lenin's return in April, the Bolshevik party represented one of a number of revolutionary parties that followed the Petrograd Soviet slavishly.

Teehee...He's angry. Keep going Ollie, this should be fun to watch.

No it was not. Do YOU find literacy difficult? You stated that the Bolsheviks would still have taken power without Lenin. And if you don't understand the commonly used term "Tsarist" you are not much of a Russian Historian.

Tsarist, in the context you used it, was wrong. I suggested that a popular revolution would have followed. You, quite wrongly, made the link between a popular revolution and a Bolshevik coup.:rolleyes:

In which case the resultant changes might've been immensely different to what would've occured had say Caesar or Lenin taken power. These things cannot be measured simply because the alternative never occured to inform us otherwise. At best, to say that in Caesar's or Lenin's absence the exact same would occur is a guess, and a bloody daft one I might add.

In Economics, this is in fact considered to be a fallacy - stating, for instance, that due to Microsoft's "monopoly" in the software market, better alternatives are forgone. This cannot be proven though, so again it amounts to a guess.

Most historians accept that the Republic was doomed by the middle decades of the 1st century BC, just as it is taken as axiom that Russia was revolutionary in late 1917. Granted, Lenin's contribution to the Bolshevvik revolution was crucial, however, his contribution to the creation of revolutionary pre-conditions was marginal.

Tsarist, in the context you used it, was wrong. I suggested that a popular revolution would have followed. You, quite wrongly, made the link between a popular revolution and a Bolshevik coup.:rolleyes:

OK Socialist revolution. So you are saying that without Lenins presence and leadership the right wing monarchists / Tsarists could not have seized power and stayed in power.

PS I didn't know old Etonians were allowed to swear

This debate is silly. You people are ruining my month. You guys can have March, we'll make it "White people debate Black history month" month.

a whole month for it? that's a little bit overkill. how about we limit it to the morning after st patrick's day? then everyone will feel good and surly, but also be too tired to put much effort into it.

a whole month for it? that's a little bit overkill. how about we limit it to the morning after st patrick's day? then everyone will feel good and surly, but also be too tired to put much effort into it.

Hmm, I like the sound of that...Fair enough! Make it so.

Most historians accept that the Republic was doomed by the middle decades of the 1st century BC, just as it is taken as axiom that Russia was revolutionary in late 1917. Granted, Lenin's contribution to the Bolshevvik revolution was crucial, however, his contribution to the creation of revolutionary pre-conditions was marginal.
I can agree with this. My point is simply that assuming a priori that had certain individuals been absent that another would've taken their role, leading to very similar or the same consequences, is somewhat naive. For all we know, the alternative may well have differed significantly from what really occasioned.

I'm not sure. I suppose since there is a Black History Month there must be something that makes "black" a distinctive feature (besides skin color, you know). However, it seems there is a correlation between skin color and certain stereotypical behavior in the US.

no, not all white people are bible bashing warmongers, honestly. And not all converts to Islam are sexually frustrated teenage anti-semites either.

OK Socialist revolution. So you are saying that without Lenins presence and leadership the right wing monarchists / Tsarists could not have seized power and stayed in power.

PS I didn't know old Etonians were allowed to swear

They couldn't have done so anyway. The sole means with which they could have retained power, namely, the army, was in a state of disarray.

How would an African have invented the airplane? Prayed to the wind god?

My assertions were based on probabability, derived from extant historical knowledge, which suggests that no tribal shaman could invent an airplane.

And thats a rather stupid assertion, derived from your ass.

I, personally, am a Pastafarian.

RAmen!

And thats a rather stupid assertion, derived from your ass.

Really? Care to explain why, or just run into the left wing playground replete with other weak people?

And thats a rather stupid assertion, derived from your ass.

In what way?

The invention of the airplane didn't occur in a vacuum, it was supported and resulted from the state of technology in the west at the time.

A tribe shaman in Africa stood no better chance than did a tribe shaman in Europe two thousand years before. It isn't the fact that the African tribe shaman is black, its that he is a tribe shaman who lives in a hut in a backwards, poor, uncivilized land.

In what way?

The invention of the airplane didn't occur in a vacuum, it was supported and resulted from the state of technology in the west at the time.

A tribe shaman in Africa stood no better chance than did a tribe shaman in Europe two thousand years before. It isn't the fact that the African tribe shaman is black, its that he is a tribe shaman who lives in a hut in a backwards, poor, uncivilized land.

And, of course, Black people were all tribe shaman in Africa at this point?

Really? Care to explain why, or just run into the left wing playground replete with other weak people?
Take your racist trolling bullshit elsewhere.

Take your racist trolling bullshit elsewhere.

Hardly racist to suggest that an African tribal shaman could not have invented the airplane. Would you scream "RACIST!!" if I suggested that a white guy couldn't throw a spear like a tribal chief?

And, of course, Black people were all tribe shaman in Africa at this point?

Does the notion of a metaphor or allegory ever enter whatever has replaced your brain?

Does the notion of a metaphor or allegory ever enter whatever has replaced your brain?

*shrug* What does that have to do with anything. You're trying to say black people can't invent the airplane because a tribal shaman in Africa can't. That's silly.

Take your racist trolling bullshit elsewhere.

Do you have an explanation as to how a tribe shaman could invent an airplane from the comfort of his mud hut?

*shrug* What does that have to do with anything. You're trying to say black people can't invent the airplane because a tribal shaman in Africa can't. That's silly.

My point precisely. The Shaman represents the regression of early twentieth century Africa.

I'm sorry to say this, but you are startlingly obtuse if you can't appreciate what was a manifestly, screamingly self-evident metaphor.

Hardly racist to suggest that an African tribal shaman could not have invented the airplane
But it is entirely racist to assert all black people are primitive African tribesman, Captain False Dilemma.

Would you scream "RACIST!!" if I suggested that a white guy couldn't throw a spear like a tribal chief?
Not to mention, what you just said there is pretty close to racist anyway.
No, but if you said "How would a Caucasian learn Japanese? Pray to their God for the gift of tongues?" You'd be a fucking racist.

Do you have an explanation as to how a tribe shaman could invent an airplane from the comfort of his mud hut?
Don't encourage the racist douchebags. I'm not playing semantics with bigots.

But it is entirely racist to assert all black people are primitive African tribesman, Captain False Dilemma.


Not to mention, what you just said there is pretty close to racist anyway.
No, but if you said "How would a Caucasian learn Japanese? Pray to their God for the gift of tongues?" You'd be a fucking racist.

None of you actually deal with images and metaphors then?

In any case, what does the caucasian reference signify? Other than a reticence to actually answer the question, obviously.

I'm sorry to say this, but you are startlingly obtuse if you can't appreciate what was a manifestly, screamingly self-evident metaphor.

It says nothing whatsoever about the entirety of black people.

It says nothing whatsoever about the entirety of black people.

It does in early twentieth century Africa, prick for brains.

Any other points?

It does in early twentieth century Africa, prick for brains.

Any other points?

Consider, perhaps, we weren't all in Africa?

None of you actually deal with images and metaphors then?
Not from people who have already proven themselves racist. Or need I dig up the thread where you said you and your racist friends would leave the country you are in if a black guy was elected?

In any case, what does the caucasian reference signify? Other than a reticence to actually answer the question, obviously.
If you are too dumb to figure out what Caucasian is, that isn't my fault.

Not from people who have already proven themselves racist. Or need I dig up the thread where you said you and your racist friends would leave the country you are in if a black guy was elected?


If you are too dumb to figure out what Caucasian is, that isn't my fault.

Shockingly enough, that particular definition has entered my awareness.:rolleyes:

I simply refuse to believe that it relates in any manner to the thread.

Isn't it annoying when somebody else plays the role of the nominalist pedant?

Consider, perhaps, we weren't all in Africa?

Of course not. However, even you must accept that, unjustly, the black population of the USA was a repressed minority in that period?

I simply refuse to believe that it relates in any manner to the thread.
You asked Would you scream "RACIST!!" if I suggested that a white guy couldn't throw a spear like a tribal chief?
I used Caucasian instead of white guy because it fit better in comparison to what you said.
I will repeat myself, I will not sit here and play semantics with bigots.

If you are too dumb to figure out what Caucasian is, that isn't my fault.BTW, I have always wondered why in English the term "Caucasian" instead of "Indoeuropean" (or so) is used to describe "whites", because Caucasians (i.e. Grusinians, Dagestani, Chechnyans, et al.) are a rather small group and specifically not Indoeuropeans, and are in no way referable as samples for an assumed overall white ethnic group. It's like using "Haussa" to mean "blacks".

Yep. Kids in schools all over the US are learning about how George Washington Carver invented the peanut, about the Tuskegee Airmen flying into battle against white Europeans, and about Rosa Parks and her seat. Do any other countries have a special (insert race, religion, whatever) history month?

Feh. I don't need an Indian History Month. I learned about Gandhi from my parents. But they don't need a Black History Month. They are people, and shouldn't get special treatment, but many black history performers would be out of a job.

In what way?

The invention of the airplane didn't occur in a vacuum, it was supported and resulted from the state of technology in the west at the time.

A tribe shaman in Africa stood no better chance than did a tribe shaman in Europe two thousand years before. It isn't the fact that the African tribe shaman is black, its that he is a tribe shaman who lives in a hut in a backwards, poor, uncivilized land.


Thats entirely true. Its not the logic laughing boy was following though, I can guarantee you that.

Really? Care to explain why, or just run into the left wing playground replete with other weak people?

Why don't you explain why a southern preacher can't perform brain surgery?

Your assertion is garbage simply because you measure intelligence and worth by using one scale.

Using flight as a tool of measurement is simple minded at best.

It is the same as measuring the worth of the Confederate South with the question of why couldn't they land on the moon.

The masai know many things about cattle? Do you? Can you find water on the plains?

The Inuit can tell you about several types of snow. Can you?

You are obviously substandard since you can't survive in their world.

Now is it possible to teach that shaman what is needed for flight? Could he pass on such knowledge?

Now let's hear more of that conservative tactic of trying to dismiss an argument by complaining about being called a racist.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,249939,00.html

:confused: I seriously question the emotional stability of some people.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,249939,00.html

:confused: I seriously question the emotional stability of some people.

*shakes head*

All I can say is wow.....

How would an African have invented the airplane?

yeah, it's not like there were any african inventors and engineers at the time.

no siree.

fucktard.

yeah, it's not like there were any african inventors and engineers at the time.

no siree.

fucktard.

Another dodger of questions...

How do you propose a tribe shaman would have invented the airplane from his mud hut, as was the question you're dodging.

Another dodger of questions...

How do you propose a tribe shaman would have invented the airplane from his mud hut, as was the question you're dodging.

It is a non-question.

The original comment was an African. They weren't all living in mud huts.

Why don't you explain how they could never invent the airplane?

Another dodger of questions...

How do you propose a tribe shaman would have invented the airplane from his mud hut, as was the question you're dodging.

that wasn't the question at all.

the context:

How about the first successful open heart surgery? Does that count? Maybe Percy Julian's discovery of affordable treatments for glaucoma and arthritis and the many uses he found for the soybean.In regard to the two medical advances, somebody else would have done them had they not.
Yeah, and maybe some African would have invented the airplane if the Wright brothers had not, but the Wright brothers did it first and got the credit. The black surgeon and chemist who made those discoveries I mentioned deserve credit too.
How would an African have invented the airplane? Prayed to the wind god?

at no point was the discussion limited to 'tribal shamans', except by the self-proclaimed racist fucktard.

Your "choices" are what are referred to as a "false dilemma" and I will not humor you by playing your little racist bigotry game.

dude, read through this again. i asked you what other plausible interpretation you could offer for the statement
Don't you think that segregating history out is giving more fire to the racists? that doesn't contain the two obviously false interlocking pieces i mentioned.

so i wasn't offering a dilemma of any type, and was specifically asking you to come up with some alternative interpretation.

at no point was the discussion limited to 'tribal shamans', except by the self-proclaimed racist fucktard.
Just a small request - can we avoid the flames and insults? They're not conducive to argumentation.

Just a small request - can we avoid the flames and insults? They're not conducive to argumentation.

when somebody declares that they will leave the country should the darkies ever get any power, as the blessed nazi famously has, there really isn't much argument left to have

when somebody declares that they will leave the country should the darkies ever get any power, as the blessed nazi famously has, there really isn't much argument left to have
What's to be gained from flaming though? Precious little. You usually make some good points, and I think this simply detracts from them. Up to you though.

What's to be gained from flaming though? Precious little. You usually make some good points, and I think this simply detracts from them. Up to you though.

He does have a point FS. Why degrade yourself to TBC's level?...

How am I degrading myself by simply asking to keep the discussion civil? I know it's a bit haughty on my part, but I just don't see the point in name-calling.

He's saying YOU have a point, if I'm reading that properly. Seems like "FS" would be short for "Free Soviets," no? :)

What's to be gained from flaming though? Precious little. You usually make some good points, and I think this simply detracts from them. Up to you though.

actually, i've been keeping it fairly civil, considering - i'm something of what you might call a militant anti-racist. i'll try to tone it down a bit more though.

He's saying YOU have a point, if I'm reading that properly. Seems like "FS" would be short for "Free Soviets," no? :)
Ugh, God... how stupid of me. I took it to mean for starters. :p

(in my defence though I haven't slept for the past 24 or so hours...)

i'll try to tone it down a bit more though.
Alright, thanks. :)

that wasn't the question at all.

the context:



at no point was the discussion limited to 'tribal shamans', except by the self-proclaimed racist fucktard.


"Originally Posted by The blessed Chris
How would an African have invented the airplane? Prayed to the wind god?

My assertions were based on probabability, derived from extant historical knowledge, which suggests that no tribal shaman could invent an airplane."

Foul filthy, disgusting cur liar!
Scum, trash, dishonest filth!

Your word is not your honor!


Why isnt the original stipulation of tribal shaman quoted in your little ditty up there?


Honesty, honesty, honesty, for christ's sake.

"Originally Posted by The blessed Chris
How would an African have invented the airplane? Prayed to the wind god?

My assertions were based on probabability, derived from extant historical knowledge, which suggests that no tribal shaman could invent an airplane."

Foul filthy, disgusting cur liar!
Scum, trash, dishonest filth!

Your word is not your honor!

Why isnt the original stipulation of tribal shaman quoted in your little ditty up there?

Honesty, honesty, honesty, for christ's sake.

But then again, why was no airplane invented by Africans, although they had thousands of years more time to make such an invention?

Why isnt the original stipulation of tribal shaman quoted in your little ditty up there?

because it's irrelevant - it's an additional condition made up on the spot by racist boy for no reason other than as a self-serving way of avoiding the possibility of black people inventing things. which is what everyone pointed out by saying, for example:

Not all Africans are tribal shamen or pray to the wind, moron.

Be careful, or I'll pray to Nu-un'*clickclick*malamaka-Ma And have you turned into a peice of furniture. Cuz, you know, that's the sort of thing all we black people do.

Your assertions were pulled out of your ass. You refuse to give credit to two black men who accomplished some impressive feats first solely because they're black. What's your beef? Did a black dude steal your girlfriend?

They would have invented it in pretty much the exact same way an American would have.

No, your assertions are based on bigotry, derived from your own asshole, which suggests that all Africans are (and can never be anything but) tribal shamans.

They would have invented it in pretty much the exact same way an American would have.But they haven't. And the question is WHY. You know, "would" isn't worth anything.

But then again, why was no airplane invented by Africans, although they had thousands of years more time to make such an invention?

too busy inventing the portable refrigeration units that allowed for the shipping of medical supplies and food, probably.

too busy inventing the portable refrigeration units that allowed for the shipping of medical supplies and food, probably.they had portable refrigeration units for the shipping of medical supplies and food in the time when the airplane was invented?

they had portable refrigeration units for the shipping of medical supplies and food in the time when the airplane was invented?

a few decades later. it was more technically complicated, after all.

a few decades later. it was more technically complicated, after all.and the refrigerator was developed by Africans in Africa?

and the refrigerator was developed by Africans in Africa?

what does being in africa have to do with anything?

what does being in africa have to do with anything?we were talking about African achievements

we were talking about African achievements

yes, and geography doesn't invent anything

yes, and geography doesn't invent anythingbut people invent things in their respective environment with the resources at hand. the question remains, why Africa hasn't produced any significant inventions although humans originated from there and had more time to develop civilized societies with technical advancements than any other humans on the planet. however, when Europeans undertook expeditions into Africa in the 19th century they came across stone- and bronze-age cultures. Obviously human evolution (cultural and technical) has stopped there at some point. I want to know why.

why Africa hasn't produced any significant inventions...

...besides the concept of tool making and fire and building shelters and hunting and agriculture and domestication of animals and monumental architecture, etc - in addition to a whole host of other stuff, up to the present day

read "guns, germs, and steel" by jared diamond

...besides the concept of tool making and fire and building shelters and hunting and agriculture and domestication of animals and monumental architecture, etc - in addition to a whole host of other stuff, up to the present day

read "guns, germs, and steel" by jared diamondwhat monumental architecture? great zimbabwe? that's not too old. and what domestication of animals?

what monumental architecture? great zimbabwe? that's not too old. and what domestication of animals?

they've got this great place in africa called egypt. you may have heard of it.

and let's see, there's the dog, the donkey, and the cow for starters.

when somebody declares that they will leave the country should the darkies ever get any power, as the blessed nazi famously has, there really isn't much argument left to have

QFT 100%.

they've got this great place in africa called egypt. you may have heard of it.

and let's see, there's the dog, the donkey, and the cow for starters.Egypt? Egyptian culture was sparked by influences from Mesopotamia. That's not something that came out of Africa originally. Ever heard of Petrie's 'dynastic race', today dubbed in a more politically correct manner 'foreign elite' ?
Dogs, i.e. Wolves, were first domesticated in (Eastern) Asia.
I'm not sure whether cattle was first domesticated in Europe (cf. Ur) or Africa (cf. Zebu).
You are right about donkeys.

Anyways, Africa still was behind Mesopotamia and subsequent cultures in southern and later central Europe. Where are all the great ancient African cities? especially in sub-Saharan Africa? What about writing, the wheel, wheel-thrown pottery, irrigation?
And later, you know, Europe was kept in intellectual dullness for a 1000 years by Christianity, while Africa could have flourished and evolved to overtake Europe. And yet, Africa could not withstand European colonialism.
Just tell me what went wrong with Africa.

we were talking about African achievements

No we wern't, a bunch of asshat bigots playing semantics were talking about Africa, the rest of us are tired of your shit and wern't playing.

Besides, Africa was developed far before Europe was. Ever heard of Egypt? Ethiopia? Kingdoms developed before Europeans could figure out farming.

No we wern't, a bunch of asshat bigots playing semantics were talking about Africa, the rest of us are tired of your shit and wern't playing.

Besides, Africa was developed far before Europe was. Ever heard of Egypt? Ethiopia? Kingdoms developed before Europeans could figure out farming.As I said. Egyptian high culture is not of African origin. And Ethiopia? Rastas brag about all the achievements of Ethiopia, but I've seen no evidence for that yet. And Africa is not just the northeast of the continent. What about the rest? From Guinea to South Africa? Where were the cultural centers that centers that could compare to Mesopotamia? Or later Persia, Greece, Rome? Let alone the later European powers?

As I said. Egyptian high culture is not of African origin.
Then why didn't European kingdoms develop at the same time?

And Ethiopia? Rastas brag about all the achievements of Ethiopia, but I've seen no evidence for that yet.
The purposefully blind don't see shit.

Or later Persia, Greece, Rome? Let alone the later European powers?
The European powers didn't come about until the 19th century, a time by which thousands of high civilizations have come and gone, then they destroyed Africa and nearly the Middle East, they learned just enough lesson from Africa to not turn the Middle East into the same ridiculous mess.

Then why didn't European kingdoms develop at the same time?Good question. However, civilization eventually spread form the Middle East via Phoenicia and Greece to Europe, while Africa kept its traditional tribal cultures.

The purposefully blind don't see shit.And the purposefully ignorant see shit that isn't there. I am aware of the Black Hebrew revisionist crap, but that's nothing to be taken as serious.

The European powers didn't come about until the 19th century, a time by which thousands of high civilizations have come and gone, then they destroyed Africa and nearly the Middle East, they learned just enough lesson from Africa to not turn the Middle East into the same ridiculous mess.Well, the Europeans didn't destroy any high cultures in Africa, they just took what was easily attainable either by means of war or by deals with the respective tribal leaders. But still, where were the centers of civilization prior to the 19th century? Outside the Northeast and the few European colonial outposts on the continent's margins? Where were the achievements that could be compared to outside achievements? Any finally why did Africans let their continent be made into colonies?

Well, the Europeans didn't destroy any high cultures in Africa,
No, they stunted its growth to the point non-existence.

But still, where were the centers of civilization prior to the 19th century?
Like I said, the purposefully blind can't see shit.

Any finally why did Africans let their continent be made into colonies?
Strawman. Racist strawman. Like the gay strawman, but not as good at showtunes.

No, they stunted its growth to the point non-existence.Examples?

Like I said, the purposefully blind can't see shit.Then bring forward your evidence. I already know a few things about the country of Ethiopia (the region of and around today's state, not the vague collective Greek name for all of Africa outside Egypt), but I am always happy about new information. I still have a royal Ethiopian genealogy to fix.

Strawman. Racist strawman. Like the gay strawman, but not as good at showtunes.Africans had plenty of time to develop societies that could resist European or other intrusion. After all European ambitions were not exactly a surprise. Tell me, what was the way of living in sub-Saharan Africa prior to the advent of European traders and invaders? Was it comparable to that of the foreigners? And if not, why not?

Examples?

Then bring forward your evidence. I already know a few things about the country of Ethiopia (the region of and around today's state, not the vague collective Greek name for all of Africa outside Egypt), but I am always happy about new information. I still have a royal Ethiopian genealogy to fix.

Africans had plenty of time to develop societies that could resist European or other intrusion. After all European ambitions were not exactly a surprise. Tell me, what was the way of living in sub-Saharan Africa prior to the advent of European traders and invaders? Was it comparable to that of the foreigners? And if not, why not?

Africans had their own systems, their own styles of living, that suited them fine. Most African societies were highly democratic, almost entirely free of corruption, and respectful of civil liberties, including economic freedom. Whether it was comparable to foreigners is irrelevant, what they had worked for them, and that's good enough.

Africans had their own systems, their own styles of living, that suited them fine. Most African societies were highly democratic, almost entirely free of corruption, and respectful of civil liberties, including economic freedom.In the time before the Europeans came? In the 17th century or earlier? Or later?

Whether it was comparable to foreigners is irrelevant, what they had worked for them, and that's good enough.All's well then.

In the time before the Europeans came? In the 17th century or earlier? Or later?

All's well then.

Before they came.

Africans had plenty of time to develop societies that could resist European or other intrusion. After all European ambitions were not exactly a surprise. Tell me, what was the way of living in sub-Saharan Africa prior to the advent of European traders and invaders? Was it comparable to that of the foreigners? And if not, why not?
For a history project you should study archeology. You might actually learn something.

For a history project you should study archeology. You might actually learn something.What "history project" do you mean? And you fail to give an answer to the question why Africans weren't prepared to defend themselves against the Europeans. Congo--Kinshasa says that most African societies were highly democratic, almost entirely free of corruption, and respectful of civil liberties, including economic freedom. So would that be comparable to the circumstances of ancient Greek democracies? What were the standards and ways of living, what was their infrastructure like?

What "history project" do you mean? And you fail to give an answer to the question why Africans weren't prepared to defend themselves against the Europeans. Congo--Kinshasa says that most African societies were highly democratic, almost entirely free of corruption, and respectful of civil liberties, including economic freedom. So would that be comparable to the circumstances of ancient Greek democracies? What were the standards and ways of living, what was their infrastructure like?

How about Isandlwana?

Not bad for a bunch of primitives.

How about Isandlwana? Not bad for a bunch of primitives.Yes. Although it didn't last. And why didn't all of Africa try to put up such resistance?

Yes. Although it didn't last. And why didn't all of Africa try to put up such resistance?

They couldn't. Europe carved it up.

They couldn't. Europe carved it up.
Add to that being enslaved prior to colonisation by the Arabs in the case of North and Northeast Africa. I wonder who's next in line to oppress them.

Yep. Kids in schools all over the US are learning about how George Washington Carver invented the peanut, about the Tuskegee Airmen flying into battle against white Europeans, and about Rosa Parks and her seat. Do any other countries have a special (insert race, religion, whatever) history month?
Nope, i think, but i had to suffer through Civil Rights movement in History Class, the worst thing about it is why would'nt you want to sit on the back seat of a bus?
The back of the bus is reserved for the cool kids over here.

why would'nt you want to sit on the back seat of a bus?
The back of the bus is reserved for the cool kids over here.

now imagine if the law stated that you couldn't sit there.

now imagine if the law stated that you couldn't sit there.
Now that would be an outrage.
But it shows how retarded the racist authorities were, giving the blacks the good seats.