NationStates Jolt Archive

Germans issue arrest warrants for 13 suspected CIA agents
Updated 1/31/2007 2:01 PM ET E-mail | Save | Print |
BERLIN (AP) — German prosecutors have issued arrest warrants for 13 suspected CIA agents over their alleged kidnapping three years ago of a German citizen, authorities said Wednesday.

The unidentified agents are being sought on suspicion of the wrongful imprisonment of Khaled al-Masri and causing him serious bodily harm, Munich prosecutor Christian Schmidt-Sommerfeld told The Associated Press. He said the warrants were issued in the last few days.

Al-Masri, a German citizen of Lebanese descent, says he was abducted in December 2003 at the Serbian-Macedonian border and flown by the CIA to a detention center in Kabul, Afghanistan, where he was abused.

He says he was released in Albania in May 2004, and that his captors told him he was seized in a case of mistaken identity.

Germany's NDR television released a list of the names of the suspected agents — 11 men and 2 women — it said its reporters had obtained. It said three had been contacted by its reporters and had refused comment.
...
Al-Masri has asked a federal appeals court in Richmond, Virginia, to reinstate a lawsuit seeking compensation that he filed against the CIA. A judge dismissed the lawsuit in May, ruling that a trial could harm national security by revealing details about CIA activities.

Sources: USAtoday/AP/OcceanNEWS©2003 - 2007
my2cents: I wonder if we have an extradition treaty with Germany

Germans issue arrest warrants for 13 suspected CIA agents
Updated 1/31/2007 2:01 PM ET E-mail | Save | Print |
BERLIN (AP) — German prosecutors have issued arrest warrants for 13 suspected CIA agents over their alleged kidnapping three years ago of a German citizen, authorities said Wednesday.

The unidentified agents are being sought on suspicion of the wrongful imprisonment of Khaled al-Masri and causing him serious bodily harm, Munich prosecutor Christian Schmidt-Sommerfeld told The Associated Press. He said the warrants were issued in the last few days.

Al-Masri, a German citizen of Lebanese descent, says he was abducted in December 2003 at the Serbian-Macedonian border and flown by the CIA to a detention center in Kabul, Afghanistan, where he was abused.

He says he was released in Albania in May 2004, and that his captors told him he was seized in a case of mistaken identity.

Germany's NDR television released a list of the names of the suspected agents — 11 men and 2 women — it said its reporters had obtained. It said three had been contacted by its reporters and had refused comment.
...
Al-Masri has asked a federal appeals court in Richmond, Virginia, to reinstate a lawsuit seeking compensation that he filed against the CIA. A judge dismissed the lawsuit in May, ruling that a trial could harm national security by revealing details about CIA activities.

Sources: USAtoday/AP/OcceanNEWS©2003 - 2007
my2cents: I wonder if we have an extradition treaty with Germany

Even if you have, you are USA and they are Germany...

Even if you have, you are USA and they are Germany...I though you were Germany..

I though you were Germany..

I'm not the old one who only could bitch but cant force the USA to do any shit...

I'm not the old one who only could bitch but cant force the USA to do any shit...so.. Whatonearth is the point of signing extradition treaties with US ???

Ok:

So what could techincally be percieved as American forces are in a country which we are not at war with, without the country's consent, and without the country's knowledge. (besides, obviously, the occupation bases in Germany)

Those forces kidnap a citizen of that country, and TORTURE him.

Next thing that will happen probably will be Bush saying something along the lines of:

"Whateva, whateva, America do what it want!"

()
Those forces kidnap a citizen of that country, and TORTURE him.

Next thing that will happen probably will be Bush saying something along the lines of:

"Whateva, whateva, America do what it want!"
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/5/web/413000-413999/413910_38_full.jpg

Ok:

besides, obviously, the occupation bases in Germany)


Im all for getting rid of those, but I thought the last time we tried to take them away, Germany thew a royal fit? But yeah, the CIA arresting german citizens and torturing them shouldnt be tolerated.

Good luck finding these 13 suspected CIA agents. Odds are, they would have been back in the States weeks ago. And, of course, the CIA will pretend they don't exist, and nothing will come of this story.

Ahh...good to be the Hegemon.

Germany has as much chance of extraditing our CIA agents as a Popsicle has of glaciating Mercury. It's just another political stunt by some America-phobic leftie prosecutor.

We probably got the original information about this clown from Germany to begin with. More Euro-duplicity and backstabbing. How typical.

Ok:

So what could techincally be percieved as American forces are in a country which we are not at war with, without the country's consent, and without the country's knowledge. (besides, obviously, the occupation bases in Germany)

Those forces kidnap a citizen of that country, and TORTURE him.

Next thing that will happen probably will be Bush saying something along the lines of:

"Whateva, whateva, America do what it want!"

It says he was abducted from the Serbian-Macedonian border, not Germany.

Also abuse does not equal torture...

Also abuse does not equal torture...I dont know.. I never been "abused".. have you?

I dont know.. I never been "abused".. have you?

I have. And, to me, it was pretty torturous.

I dont know.. I never been "abused".. have you?

yes

besides, obviously, the occupation bases in Germany

Occupation bases? Trust me, the one thing those bases (or more specifically, the soldiers on them) are not doing is "occupying".

yesand.. ???

would you agree with theSouthIslands ?

I have. And, to me, it was pretty torturous.

and.. ???

would you agree with theSouthIslands ?

never been tortured so I don't have a basis of comparison but I wouldn't have made my original post if I thought abuse was the same thing as torture.


But "Abuse is a general term for the use or treatment of something (person, thing, idea, etc.) that causes some kind of harm (to the abused person or thing, to the abusers themselves, or to someone else) or is unlawful or wrongful. Its close synonyms are mistreatment and maltreatment. The word "misuse" has a more distant meaning of incorrect, uneducated use, not necessarily harmful to a person."

And "Torture is the infliction of pain intended to break the will of the victim or victims. Any act by which severe pain, whether physical or psychological, is intentionally inflicted on a person as a means of intimidation, deterrence, revenge, punishment, sadism, or to obtain confessions (true or false) for propaganda or political purposes may be called torture."

never been tortured so I don't have a basis of comparison but I wouldn't have made my original post if I thought abuse was the same thing as torture.some would say "its not an escalation Its an augmentation"..

its word games.
its like saying "Sexually assaulted or sexually abused or Raped".

using different words to try to reduce the impact.. (or vice versa)

And "Torture is the infliction of pain intended to break the will of the victim or victims. Any act by which severe pain, whether physical or psychological, is intentionally inflicted on a person as a means of intimidation, deterrence, revenge, punishment, sadism, or to obtain confessions (true or false) for propaganda or political purposes may be called torture."so.. if the CIA "abused" him.. it was not as a means of intimidation.. or to "extract" information?

Germany has as much chance of extraditing our CIA agents as a Popsicle has of glaciating Mercury. It's just another political stunt by some America-phobic leftie prosecutor.

This "leftie prosecutor" is just doing his job. Capturing and torturing citizens is a crime inGermany, and he has to do something against it.

If you just wanted to arrest a suspected terrorist, you could have done it the official way. Ok, you couldn't torture him, and he could have a lawyer and that stuff, so he could prove his innoncence much easier, but it would be possible.

Probably the USA won't extratict the agents - but at least they can't visit any country which has a treaty with Germany...

so.. if the CIA "abused" him.. it was not as a means of intimidation.. or to "extract" information?

How do you know he didn't like it?

"Bring out the gimp!"

How do you know he didn't like it?Would you like it when they anal search you?
or Would you like it if they do it to your parents/family?

Would you like it when they anal search you?
or Would you like it if they do it to your parents/family?

We are not Muslim so we don't have to worry about it.

Would you like it when they anal search you?
or Would you like it if they do it to your parents/family?

Anal search does sound pleasing...

Anal search does sound pleasing...LOL... you win diz thread

We are not Muslim so we don't have to worry about it.true.

How do you know he didn't like it?


Well, the victim sued the USA - for 64.000 €. So he must have liked it, because some hot cofee is much more expensive in the USA...

Or perhaps he forgot that the process is in the USA...

We are not Muslim so we don't have to worry about it.


Yeah, torturing filthy muslims isn't a crime, is it?

Yeah, torturing filthy muslims isn't a crime, is it?

Actually, it can be rather relaxing. Think classical music with branding irons.

Well, the victim sued the USA - for 64.000 €. So he must have liked it, because some hot cofee is much more expensive in the USA...

Or perhaps he forgot that the process is in the USA...

Yeah, torturing filthy muslims isn't a crime, is it?

Turn on your sarcasm detector.

guess nobody remembers where the quote was from......

Actually, it can be rather relaxing. Think classical music with branding irons.hostel?

Turn on your sarcasm detector.

guess nobody remembers where the quote was from......

Well, the problem in this forum is - there are people who write something like this, and they mean it... :headbang:

So my sarcasm detector doesn't work properly here.

hostel?

Never saw the movie. But I saw Saw and Saw II, and Saw III comes on the campus movie channel next week. So its pretty much the same thing.

Without the dirty muslims, of course.

Well, the problem in this forum is - there are people who write something like this, and they mean it... :headbang:

So my sarcasm detector doesn't work properly here.sometimes they wanna keep you guessing... Its part of the game.

This forum is built like a Labyrinth.. keep you heads up.

Germany has as much chance of extraditing our CIA agents as a Popsicle has of glaciating Mercury. It's just another political stunt by some America-phobic leftie prosecutor.

We probably got the original information about this clown from Germany to begin with. More Euro-duplicity and backstabbing. How typical.


hate to say it...but +1 from here.

just like the french dithered about iraq cause they had lucrative deals with saddam,and the germans...sigh...yea..america is bad,and if only we dissappeared all would be good.

not to condone torture or anything of that sort...the germans turned the guy over to us...for a reason.

Germany has as much chance of extraditing our CIA agents as a Popsicle has of glaciating Mercury.
Night on Mercury is around -200 Below

Never saw the movie. its a really well made movie.

It stays in your mind for a while..

its a really well made movie.
No, it's trash.

Anyhow, good luck Germany. You’re going to need it.

just like the french dithered about iraq cause they had lucrative deals with saddam,and the germans

Did you know, American companies were also implicated in various scandals regarding illicit dealings with Iraq as well? And of course now that France and Germany have been shut out of it, companies like Haliburton get carte blanche to the US treasury.

Don't forget, there is pressure on Iraq to pass a law that more or less gives several US companies near complete ownership over Iraqi oil fields.

Nobody's all good. But the US is about as pure as a grease rag and it's constant harping of how they're all so hah "philanthropic" and love "freedom" is so much bullshit.

We probably got the original information about this clown from Germany to begin with. More Euro-duplicity and backstabbing. How typical.
Wait... so:

(1) abducting your ally's citizens and torturing them = A-OK

while

(2) attempting to bring said torturers to justice = "duplicity and backstabbing"?

Does not compute. How typical.

hate to say it...but +1 from here.

just like the french dithered about iraq cause they had lucrative deals with saddam,and the germans...sigh...yea..america is bad,and if only we dissappeared all would be good.

not to condone torture or anything of that sort...the germans turned the guy over to us...for a reason.

He was abducted. How is that "turning someone over"?

Germans issue arrest warrants for 13 suspected CIA agents

Also, Italian magistrates have issued some months ago an order of arrest for about 10 CIA agenst, allegedly involved in the kidnapping (or extraordinary rendition, if you prefer) of a person suspected of international terrorism.

Any chances to arrest them? Sadly, I don't think so...

Germany has as much chance of extraditing our CIA agents as a Popsicle has of glaciating Mercury. It's just another political stunt by some America-phobic leftie prosecutor.

We probably got the original information about this clown from Germany to begin with. More Euro-duplicity and backstabbing. How typical.

The case was filed in Munich. That would be in Bavaria. If you had a clue about German politics you would know that there are no lefties in Bavaria. It is the most conservative state in Germany. The CDU has people in it that makes Bush look like a raving communist. So before you knee jerk about leftie prosecutors I would suggest that you research the subject so you gain at least a small iota of knowledge before you spout your idiocy over a subject you blatantly have no idea of.

Duplicity? Back stabbing? You dolt...its called a respect for due process...something your president has absolutely no understanding of. Nor you evidently.

However you are right in one regard (well eventually you had to ... law of averages and all that). There is no way that the agents will be arrested nor extradited. The US Government are not going to allow these agents to even travel to Europe (their arrest warrent is EU wide). The other problem is that the prosecutors office only has code names...not real names.

hate to say it...but +1 from here.

just like the french dithered about iraq cause they had lucrative deals with saddam,and the germans...sigh...yea..america is bad,and if only we dissappeared all would be good.

not to condone torture or anything of that sort...the germans turned the guy over to us...for a reason.

Ahhh...the only person on this site who is able to lower the overall IQ of NSG.

Do we need to post the pic of Rummy and Saddam shaking hands in the 80's? America is not bad...but its foreign policy sucks donkey cock.

The Germans did not turn the guy over to the Americans. He was a German citizen on holiday in Macedonia when he was kidnapped in a case of mistaken identity.

At least you do not condone torture...at least that is something!

Also, Italian magistrates have issued some months ago an order of arrest for about 10 CIA agenst, allegedly involved in the kidnapping (or extraordinary rendition, if you prefer) of a person suspected of international terrorism.

Any chances to arrest them? Sadly, I don't think so...

13...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4619377.stm

The US thinks it can do what it pleases even in the countries of its allies. The US has lost much respect in the last 6 years.

When the US needs some help chances are it won't be forth coming. You reap what you sow.

I suggest the Germans find these mercenary spies and show them what terror really means...

I suggest the Germans find these mercenary spies and show them what terror really means...

LED-bombs of an animation character?

Germans issue arrest warrants for 13 suspected CIA agents
Updated 1/31/2007 2:01 PM ET E-mail | Save | Print |
BERLIN (AP) — German prosecutors have issued arrest warrants for 13 suspected CIA agents over their alleged kidnapping three years ago of a German citizen, authorities said Wednesday.

The unidentified agents are being sought on suspicion of the wrongful imprisonment of Khaled al-Masri and causing him serious bodily harm, Munich prosecutor Christian Schmidt-Sommerfeld told The Associated Press. He said the warrants were issued in the last few days.

Al-Masri, a German citizen of Lebanese descent, says he was abducted in December 2003 at the Serbian-Macedonian border and flown by the CIA to a detention center in Kabul, Afghanistan, where he was abused.

He says he was released in Albania in May 2004, and that his captors told him he was seized in a case of mistaken identity.

Germany's NDR television released a list of the names of the suspected agents — 11 men and 2 women — it said its reporters had obtained. It said three had been contacted by its reporters and had refused comment.
...
Al-Masri has asked a federal appeals court in Richmond, Virginia, to reinstate a lawsuit seeking compensation that he filed against the CIA. A judge dismissed the lawsuit in May, ruling that a trial could harm national security by revealing details about CIA activities.

Sources: USAtoday/AP/OcceanNEWS©2003 - 2007
my2cents: I wonder if we have an extradition treaty with Germany

How can the Germans have any standing in this? The arrest/abduction wasn't in Germany.

How can the Germans have any standing in this? The arrest/abduction wasn't in Germany.

it was a german citizen

The case was filed in Munich. That would be in Bavaria. If you had a clue about German politics you would know that there are no lefties in Bavaria. It is the most conservative state in Germany. The CDU has people in it that makes Bush look like a raving communist.

This both interests and intrigues me. I didn't know Germany had these types. I guess it shouldn't surprise me, since both Japan and Italy have ultra-conservative politicians too. Who are these rabid conservative politicians in Germany?

How can the Germans have any standing in this? The arrest/abduction wasn't in Germany.

So you wouldn't mind Americans abroad being 'disappeared' by local authorities on unproven charges ?

While I understand Germany's stance on the issue of these CIA agents, and I certainly do not believe they should go unpunished, I do not believe we should allow them to be extradited (If they were following orders). As federal agents, they are ours to command and ours to punish. Extradition treaties are fine for regular criminals, but these are not regular criminals. Just as we would not allow Germany to command America's troops into battle, we will not allow them to set the rules by which our agents live. If there is a trial or inquiry, it should be here, and not overseas.

Now, there should be a trial, and we should learn why it happened, and if it is as Germany has claimed, those responsible should be punished... By Americans. I am ashamed of the federal gov't for allowing this to continue. So before you jump down my throat, understand that my issue is one of national sovreignity, and not of support for their actions.

How can the Germans have any standing in this? The arrest/abduction wasn't in Germany.

But it was done to a German citizen.

This both interests and intrigues me. I didn't know Germany had these types. I guess it shouldn't surprise me, since both Japan and Italy have ultra-conservative politicians too. Who are these rabid conservative politicians in Germany?

He (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoiber) would be a shining example...

Germany has as much chance of extraditing our CIA agents as a Popsicle has of glaciating Mercury. It's just another political stunt by some America-phobic leftie prosecutor.

We probably got the original information about this clown from Germany to begin with. More Euro-duplicity and backstabbing. How typical.

This guy was just doing his job ... Regardless of how easy or likely it is to accomplish

Personally, I think giving the CIA a free reign to imprison and torture people without risk of legal action due to it being threatening to national security is even MORE threatening to national security. :p

While I understand Germany's stance on the issue of these CIA agents, and I certainly do not believe they should go unpunished, I do not believe we should allow them to be extradited (If they were following orders). As federal agents, they are ours to command and ours to punish. Extradition treaties are fine for regular criminals, but these are not regular criminals. Just as we would not allow Germany to command America's troops into battle, we will not allow them to set the rules by which our agents live. If there is a trial or inquiry, it should be here, and not overseas.

Now, there should be a trial, and we should learn why it happened, and if it is as Germany has claimed, those responsible should be punished... By Americans. I am ashamed of the federal gov't for allowing this to continue. So before you jump down my throat, understand that my issue is one of national sovreignity, and not of support for their actions.

IF they were acting on orders, you are right. And in that case, it shouldn't only be them in trial but also the person who gave the order, as well as an investigation into the relevant CIA department.
If however, they acted on their own accord (which I'm naively still somehow hoping), they should be extradicted as the common criminals they are.

IF they were acting on orders, you are right. And in that case, it shouldn't only be them in trial but also the person who gave the order, as well as an investigation into the relevant CIA department.
If however, they acted on their own accord (which I'm naively still somehow hoping), they should be extradicted as the common criminals they are.

I concur. I suspect that they were probably acting under orders, since this kind of abduction seems to have become common, but that is just conjecture.

I concur. I suspect that they were probably acting under orders, since this kind of abduction seems to have become common, but that is just conjecture.

To be perfectly honest, I as a German citizen wouldn't mind having them on trial in the USA, as possible sentences there are far more sever than what would be possible in Germany.
On the other hand, I would like to see the case make an impact in the States, and by a trial there that is not going to happen. If they were extradicted, it would make the news, and the result would be public awareness and hopefully enough pressure to not let things like this happen again.

To be perfectly honest, I as a German citizen wouldn't mind having them on trial in the USA, as possible sentences there are far more sever than what would be possible in Germany.
On the other hand, I would like to see the case make an impact in the States, and by a trial there that is not going to happen. If they were extradicted, it would make the news, and the result would be public awareness and hopefully enough pressure to not let things like this happen again.

Actually, interestingly enough, an extradition would make waves, but the issue of the abduction and "abuse" (is this a polite way of saying torture?) would be overshaddowed by indignance over the extradition.

If a trial occurs here in the U.S. odds are that, if those responsible are as high-up as I suspect, it will receive a lot of attention.

However, I suspect that there will be no trial at all. The Fed Judge that shot it down is unlikely to change his mind.

Actually, interestingly enough, an extradition would make waves, but the issue of the abduction and "abuse" (is this a polite way of saying torture?) would be overshaddowed by indignance over the extradition.

If a trial occurs here in the U.S. odds are that, if those responsible are as high-up as I suspect, it will receive a lot of attention.

However, I suspect that there will be no trial at all. The Fed Judge that shot it down is unlikely to change his mind.

I can't speak for other Americans because I'm a complete wacko, but I wouldn't be indignant at their extradition in and of itself. I'd be indignant if violations of german law were given precedence over violations of American law. As Americans, they should be tried and convicted for their crimes here first. However, if that isn't going to happen, they should stand trial for their crimes in Germany. Their status as CIA operatives doesn't matter in the slightest to me. "I was following orders" was never intended to be a shield against responsibility for illegal activity(something the Germans have learned quite recently and well). *nod*

This both interests and intrigues me. I didn't know Germany had these types. I guess it shouldn't surprise me, since both Japan and Italy have ultra-conservative politicians too. Who are these rabid conservative politicians in Germany?

Shock horror....so does France! Excuse my abruptness...it pisses me off to no end (not you btw!) when people go on about Socialist Europe...when in fact many governments are actually conservative or have been not so long ago.

He (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoiber) would be a shining example...

Yeah...I was wrong to say CDU for Bavaria...but then Kohl was CDU (for some reason wiki calls the CDU centrist)....also there is the wonderful NDP...

I can't speak for other Americans because I'm a complete wacko, but I wouldn't be indignant at their extradition in and of itself. I'd be indignant if violations of german law were given precedence over violations of American law. As Americans, they should be tried and convicted of their crimes here first. However, if that isn't going to happen, they should stand trial for their crimes in Germany. Their status as CIA operatives doesn't matter in the slightest to me. "I was following orders" was never intended to be a shield against responsibility for illegal activity. *nod*

So you would not be indignant if US law takes precedence over another country even if the crime did not take place in the US?

What about extraditions to the US. If, for example the UK wanted to extradite an American, a case would need to be presented to a judge in the US. On the other hand for the US to extradite a Brit to face trial in the US...only suspicion that the person committed a crime is needed.

Now I know that this is Blair at his worse. I would not be happy if my leader even thought that he could treat an ally in this manner.

Actually, interestingly enough, an extradition would make waves, but the issue of the abduction and "abuse" (is this a polite way of saying torture?) would be overshaddowed by indignance over the extradition.

If a trial occurs here in the U.S. odds are that, if those responsible are as high-up as I suspect, it will receive a lot of attention.

However, I suspect that there will be no trial at all. The Fed Judge that shot it down is unlikely to change his mind.

Considering how unwilling the USA generally seems to bring to justice people who commited crimes in its name (and I'm not even thinking of war crimes here, but I remember the case of the two pilots killing 20 people through reckless behaviour), I don't have very high hopes that any action will be taken in the USA. To be honest, I don't have any hopes.

So you would not be indignant if US law takes precedence over another country even if the crime did not take place in the US?

What about extraditions to the US. If, for example the UK wanted to extradite an American, a case would need to be presented to a judge in the US. On the other hand for the US to extradite a Brit to face trial in the US...only suspicion that the person committed a crime is needed.

Now I know that this is Blair at his worse. I would not be happy if my leader even thought that he could treat an ally in this manner.

Just another example of US governments running roughshod over not just the rest of the world but now their allies as well. And us being stupid enough to put up with it.

Of course dare to mention it or criticize a US action and we are leftie anti-americans...............

So you would not be indignant if US law takes precedence over another country even if the crime did not take place in the US?

What about extraditions to the US. If, for example the UK wanted to extradite an American, a case would need to be presented to a judge in the US. On the other hand for the US to extradite a Brit to face trial in the US...only suspicion that the person committed a crime is needed.

Now I know that this is Blair at his worse. I would not be happy if my leader even thought that he could treat an ally in this manner.

Well, I really don't know much about who extradites whom and what their rules are, but I wouldn't expect the UK to drop pending criminal charges on a british citizen to send him to the US to face charges there.

Well, I really don't know much about who extradites whom and what their rules are, but I wouldn't expect the UK to drop pending criminal charges on a british citizen to send him to the US to face charges there.

We don't have to drop any charges, the US just doesn't have to prove anything other than suspicion.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/enron/story/0,,1491605,00.html

Actually, interestingly enough, an extradition would make waves, but the issue of the abduction and "abuse" (is this a polite way of saying torture?) would be overshaddowed by indignance over the extradition.

If a trial occurs here in the U.S. odds are that, if those responsible are as high-up as I suspect, it will receive a lot of attention.

However, I suspect that there will be no trial at all. The Fed Judge that shot it down is unlikely to change his mind.

Sadly you are correct. National Security is now rapidly becoming a byword for obfuscation, corruption and scaremongering.

I also hasten add that I hold the same view towards the UK government as well.

We don't have to drop any charges, the US just doesn't have to prove anything other than suspicion.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/enron/story/0,,1491605,00.html

I think you need to have a long talk with your criminal justice system. :p

I think you need to have a long talk with your criminal justice system. :p

As Rubiconic Crossings just stated the excuse of "national security" is becoming an excuse for the authorities to do what the hell they want. The anti-terrorism acts passed after 9 / 11 now allow police to detain a terror suspect for 28 days WITHOUT CHARGE. WTF!?

As for the example I quoted, this mechanism for extradition without proof or charge was supposedly for terror suspects.

As Rubiconic Crossings just stated the excuse of "national security" is becoming an excuse for the authorities to do what the hell they want. The anti-terrorism acts passed after 9 / 11 now allow police to detain a terror suspect for 28 days WITHOUT CHARGE. WTF!?

As for the example I quoted, this mechanism for extradition without proof or charge was supposedly for terror suspects.

Speaking as an American, I think your country needs to show a little backbone and stand up to MY country. :p

Speaking as an American, I think your country needs to show a little backbone and stand up to MY country. :p

If only. Like I said before, dare to mention it here and you are denounced as a "Euro leftie anti-American terrorist lover" or some other such savoury comment

Well, I really don't know much about who extradites whom and what their rules are, but I wouldn't expect the UK to drop pending criminal charges on a british citizen to send him to the US to face charges there.

The person does not even need to be charged in the UK.

We don't have to drop any charges, the US just doesn't have to prove anything other than suspicion.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/enron/story/0,,1491605,00.html

Yep. The person does not need to be charged.

I think you need to have a long talk with your criminal justice system. :p

No. Its the polscumbags that need a talking to. Year on year more and more draconian legislation.

As Rubiconic Crossings just stated the excuse of "national security" is becoming an excuse for the authorities to do what the hell they want. The anti-terrorism acts passed after 9 / 11 now allow police to detain a terror suspect for 28 days WITHOUT CHARGE. WTF!?

As for the example I quoted, this mechanism for extradition without proof or charge was supposedly for terror suspects.

And funnily enough the first people to be extradited under that legislation were bankers involved in Enron. Not terrorists.

Speaking as an American, I think your country needs to show a little backbone and stand up to MY country. :p

What...and get invaded again by the Yanks?

Speaking as an American, I think your country needs to show a little backbone and stand up to MY country. as an American.. I agree with LG.

as an American.. I agree with LG.

Not surprisingly most people do not want this kind of relation with the US. Smiler however sees things in a different light. Along with of course previous UK governments.

Also it is apparent that many Americans consider countries that stand up for themselves as either evil or enemies.

So really when someone says something like that it really shows a lack of understanding with regards to the workings of international relationships.

So really when someone says something like that it really shows a lack of understanding with regards to the workings of international relationships.yes I am an American.. yes I am aware many of US "show a lack of understanding".. Its called Empire mentality.
our society (in different degrees) thinks and reacts that way.


Also it is apparent that many Americans consider countries that stand up for themselves as either evil or enemies.
Like I said its called.. Empire mentality.

maybe your ancestors were under that spell..

yes I am an American.. yes I am aware many of US "show a lack of understanding".. Its called Empire mentality.
our society (in different degrees) thinks and reacts that way.

Like I said its called.. Empire mentality.

maybe your ancestors were under that spell..i am not saying this is good..

It is bad.. bad for US.. and bad for theRestoftheWorld

While I understand Germany's stance on the issue of these CIA agents, and I certainly do not believe they should go unpunished, I do not believe we should allow them to be extradited (If they were following orders). As federal agents, they are ours to command and ours to punish. Extradition treaties are fine for regular criminals, but these are not regular criminals. Just as we would not allow Germany to command America's troops into battle, we will not allow them to set the rules by which our agents live. If there is a trial or inquiry, it should be here, and not overseas.

Now, there should be a trial, and we should learn why it happened, and if it is as Germany has claimed, those responsible should be punished... By Americans. I am ashamed of the federal gov't for allowing this to continue. So before you jump down my throat, understand that my issue is one of national sovreignity, and not of support for their actions.

They committed no crime in the US. The CIA is above the law (unless they are caught in the act, in which case they are "rogue agents acting outside the agency). The only chance that these people will ever be put on trial is if they are arrested by some European security force or intelligence service outside the US. And I'd suspect that the agency is never letting these men outside the US again, or at least not letting them travel to Europe.

If say a French operative killed or kidnapped American citizens on orders from France, would you think it the US's right to try that operative?

I can't speak for other Americans because I'm a complete wacko, but I wouldn't be indignant at their extradition in and of itself. I'd be indignant if violations of german law were given precedence over violations of American law. As Americans, they should be tried and convicted for their crimes here first. However, if that isn't going to happen, they should stand trial for their crimes in Germany. Their status as CIA operatives doesn't matter in the slightest to me. "I was following orders" was never intended to be a shield against responsibility for illegal activity(something the Germans have learned quite recently and well). *nod*

But the US *won't* try them, that's the problem. As I said before, they're the CIA, they don't get in trouble. They are one of the world's most effective terrorist organizations.

They were acting on orders. Bush has already admitted that the secret arrests and torture bases exist, he's not about to prosecute his own henchmen.

Sadly you are correct. National Security is now rapidly becoming a byword for obfuscation, corruption and scaremongering.

I also hasten add that I hold the same view towards the UK government as well.

Is always has been, just not quite so heavy-handedly in the past.

If only. Like I said before, dare to mention it here and you are denounced as a "Euro leftie anti-American terrorist lover" or some other such savoury comment

That's when you kick the commenter in the face. When they willfully divorce themselves from the realm of reality, they forfit a right to a logical, rational responce. So kick 'em in the face.

yes I am an American.. yes I am aware many of US "show a lack of understanding".. Its called Empire mentality.
our society (in different degrees) thinks and reacts that way.

Like I said its called.. Empire mentality.

maybe your ancestors were under that spell..

Yeah I can understand that. However...this is the 21st century...not the 19th...and we face major issues as a planet. There were no nukes in the 19th century.

My ancestors...funny that...my ancestors on my fathers side emigrated to to the US in the 1840's...my ancestors on my mothers side were colonials in India until the turn of the century when they returned to England. I am now ensconced in England. The land of my birth.

i am not saying this is good..

It is bad.. bad for US.. and bad for theRestoftheWorld

I never doubted that.

The CIA is above the law.I suppose that means your laws are too low.

The CIA is above the law.

Nobody should be above the law. Thats the whole point of having laws in the first place

By the way - the Germans know the identity of some of the CIA-agents. In fact, they had a quite bad disguise.

The so famous CIA seems to be full of amateurs.

By the way - the Germans know the identity of some of the CIA-agents. In fact, they had a quite bad disguise.

The so famous CIA seems to be full of amateurs.

I was aware they knew the code names....but not the real identities...

it was a german citizen

How is a German citizen protected by German law when he's not in Germany?

How is a German citizen protected by German law when he's not in Germany?

Um...international law....

How is a German citizen protected by German law when he's not in Germany?

Are you implying that there are no law against kidnapping in Macedonia?

Are you implying that there are no law against kidnapping in Macedonia?

It might be one of those weird idiosyncracies.

In Macedonia it is legal to kidnap a German on a Tuesday.

In Macedonia it is legal to kidnap a German on a Tuesday.

not every tuesday. alternating tuesdays.

not every tuesday. alternating tuesdays.

Of course, how silly of me. I nearly made a ludicrous mistake.

not every tuesday. alternating tuesdays.

and only between the hours of 13:00 and 17:00...

Are you implying that there are no law against kidnapping in Macedonia?

Look, I'm asking a serious question and all I get are facetious answers. The laws of the host country certainly apply, but Germany is not the host country, as far as I can tell. Now, if Macedonia had filed the kidnapping charges against the CIA agents, I would have understood, but Germans can, or so I though, only file charges against those who do wrong in their jurisdiction. I would think that Macedonia is not Germany, therefore the Germans have no standing to charge anyone with a violation of a Macedonian law.

Is this too complicated to get a straight answer?

but Germans can, or so I though, only file charges against those who do wrong in their jurisdiction.

germany has taken 'never again' to have some actual meaning. by law, their jurisdiction goes all over the world.

Look, I'm asking a serious question and all I get are facetious answers. The laws of the host country certainly apply, but Germany is not the host country, as far as I can tell. Now, if Macedonia had filed the kidnapping charges against the CIA agents, I would have understood, but Germans can, or so I though, only file charges against those who do wrong in their jurisdiction. I would think that Macedonia is not Germany, therefore the Germans have no standing to charge anyone with a violation of a Macedonian law.

Is this too complicated to get a straight answer?

I was not being facetious. Under international law this is what happens.

Is this too complicated to get a straight answer?
I don't think any of us are specialists in international law and could tell you exactly what is going on in that respect.

But they're doing it, which tells me that there is a legal basis for it. And it makes sense...he is a German citizen and the victim of an international crime. The German government is responsible for him (and hasn't exactly performed splendidly either in that respect, by the way), and I wouldn't expect the US to act any differently in this situation (except that there would probably be more guns and stuff involved).

By a similar token, Spain has arrest warrents for a number of US soldiers who fired at the Palestine Hotel in Baghdad during the battle, killing a Spanish camera man.

A few more links, none of which actually tell us the legal specifics:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,463385,00.html
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,463765,00.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/03/AR2006100301449.html

I was not being facetious. Under international law this is what happens.

So if I am a victim of a crime in Italy, the United States government can charge whomever they suspect of committing that crime, despite the fact that it happened on foreign soil? Don't the Italians have any interest in the crime? This is where I'm confused. The local authorities should be the ones charging and arresting.

Maybe this is why we don't belong to the ICC.

So if I am a victim of a crime in Italy, the United States government can charge whomever they suspect of committing that crime, despite the fact that it happened on foreign soil? Don't the Italians have any interest in the crime? This is where I'm confused. The local authorities should be the ones charging and arresting.

Maybe this is why we don't belong to the ICC.

(I'm not an expert...but this is my understanding...if anyone thinks I am talking rubbish please intervene...)

There are three parties not two. The host country can take action but in a case like this would most likely not as there really is no point because the chances of the case being successful are very limited. Also bear in mind that Macedonia would not upset the US due to aid and the like.

The nation of the kidnappee however would have to take action given that his State (Germany) guarantees his right to follow legal recourse. Of course its an empty course as in actuality there will be no prosecution brought to bear.

This particular case is further unusual in that it involves other countries like Egypt.

Of course the US should be involved in the ICC because of just this issue. Realistically there is more chance of Saddam coming back from the dead than that happening.

Nobody should be above the law. Thats the whole point of having laws in the first place

That was my point. I'm for the prosecution of the agents.

So if I am a victim of a crime in Italy, the United States government can charge whomever they suspect of committing that crime, despite the fact that it happened on foreign soil?


Yes, if you were killed or kidnaped or victimized in Italy, or Egypt, or Russia, or anywhere else, especially by the actions of a government agency, and the local government did nothing about it, you can be sure the US would try to prosecute the perpetrators.


Besides, are you really against the punishment of kidnappers and torturers simply because of who's doing the prosecuting?

This makes me really sick, and points out the gaping contradicting hypocritical holes in US foreign policy. It's just plain criminal, like Mossad.

The case was filed in Munich. That would be in Bavaria. If you had a clue about German politics you would know that there are no lefties in Bavaria. :p That cracked me up. It's also wrong, but I'd give it to you as a general statement.

It is the most conservative state in Germany. The CDU has people in it that makes Bush look like a raving communist. So before you knee jerk about leftie prosecutors I would suggest that you research the subject so you gain at least a small iota of knowledge before you spout your idiocy over a subject you blatantly have no idea of. Yeah, well... about that knowledge... none of the people in power even in the CSU will make Bush look like a communist, not even a non-raving one.
Even our most conservative mainstream parties still fundamentally believe in a *gasp* social market economy, however much slimmed down, so to beat the Republicans in that regard is nigh impossible.


This both interests and intrigues me. I didn't know Germany had these types. I guess it shouldn't surprise me, since both Japan and Italy have ultra-conservative politicians too. Who are these rabid conservative politicians in Germany?
He (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoiber) would be a shining example... :p

Shock horror....so does France! Excuse my abruptness...it pisses me off to no end (not you btw!) when people go on about Socialist Europe...when in fact many governments are actually conservative or have been not so long ago. Ah, that explains your over-eagerness into the opposite direction, then.


Yeah...I was wrong to say CDU for Bavaria...but then Kohl was CDU (for some reason wiki calls the CDU centrist)....also there is the wonderful NDP... Yeah, well, both the CDU and the SPD are pretty centrist, really. One is slightly to the right, the other slightly to the left. *shrug*
The CSU is pretty much the CDU's pathetic reactionary little brother everybody outside of Bavaria is embarrassed by.


Now, the NPD is a whole different barrel of worms. They and their ilk have really only one platform and that's "Germany for Germans". They're far-right fringe group lunatics and don't fall into the kind of left/right spectrum that could reasonably be compared to the mainstream parties of any country.

Germany should not interfere with the legitimate capture of potential terriosts.

Germany should not interfere with the legitimate capture of potential terriosts.

MTAE, can you please stop making puppets.

MTAE, can you please stop making puppets.

I'm not MTAE.

Germany should not interfere with the legitimate capture of potential terriosts.what the hell is a terriost?
someone's terriost is someone else's Cheerios Fighter .

Germany should not interfere with the legitimate capture of potential terriosts.

Germany should safeguard their citizen from being wrongly arrested and illegally tortued by overzelous CIA operatives.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

It is good to be the Hegemon.

So if I am a victim of a crime in Italy, the United States government can charge whomever they suspect of committing that crime, despite the fact that it happened on foreign soil? Don't the Italians have any interest in the crime? This is where I'm confused. The local authorities should be the ones charging and arresting.

Maybe this is why we don't belong to the ICC.

I think the first demand to make is that the culprit be tried by his own host country. Only if his home country has severe doubts that this will happen, or if it becomes clear that it won't happen, do they demand extradition.

One interesting and somewhat similar case would be this :

On 3 February 1998, an EA-6B Prowler, an electronic warfare (anti-radar) aircraft belonging to the U.S. Marines struck a cable supporting a gondola in Cavalese. The cable was severed and 20 people in the cabin plunged over 80 metres to their deaths. The plane had wing and tail damage but was able to return to the base.

Those killed, 19 passengers and one operator, were all of European nationalities: eight Germans (Jürgen Wunderlich (44, Burgstadt), Egon Uwe Renkewitz (47, Burgstadt), Marina Mandy Renkewitz (24, Burgstadt), Annelie (Wessig) Urban (41, Burgstadt), Harald Urban (41, Burgstadt), Michael Pötschke (28, Burgstadt), Dieter Frank Blumenfeld (47, Burgstadt), and Sonja Weinhofer (22) that lived in Austria), five Belgians (Stefaan Vermander (27, Assebroek), Rose-Marie Eyskens (24, Kalmthout), Sebastian Van den Heede (27, Brugge), Stefan Bekaert (28, Leuven), Hadewich Antonissen (24, Wechelderzande)), three Italians (Marcello Vanzo (56, Cavalese), Maria Steiner-Stampfl (61, Bressanone), Edeltraud Zanon-Werth (56, born in Innsbruck lived in Bressanone)), two Poles (Ewa Strzelczyk (37, Gliwice), Philip Strzelczyk (14, Gliwice)), one Austrian (Anton Voglsang, 35, Vienna) and one Dutch (Danielle Groenleer, 20, Apeldoorn).

...

It was also an open secret that American pilots sometimes flew under the cables to prove their "courage" to their buddies. This explains why the plane was much too low and why the crew destroyed a video tape they wanted to show off their flying skills with.

Italian prosecutors wanted the four Marines to stand trial in Italy, but an Italian court determined that NATO treaties gave jurisdiction to U.S. military courts.....

Initially, all four men on the plane were charged, but only the pilot Captain Richard J. Ashby and his navigator Captain Joseph Schweitzer actually faced trial, charged with 20 counts of involuntary manslaughter and negligent homicide. Ashby's trial took place at Marine Corps Base Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. It was determined that the maps on board did not show the cables and that the EA-6B was flying somewhat faster and considerably lower than allowed by military regulations. The restrictions in effect at the time required a minimum flying height of 2000 feet (600 m); the pilot said he thought they were 1000 feet (300 m). The cable was cut at a height of 360 feet (110 m). The pilot further claimed that the height-measuring equipment on his plane had been malfunctioning, and that he had been unaware of the speed restrictions. In March 1999, the jury acquitted Ashby, outraging the European public. The manslaughter charges against Schweitzer were then dropped.
The two men were court-martialed a second time for obstruction of justice, because they had destroyed a videotape recorded from the plane on the day of the accident. They were found guilty in May 1999; both were dismissed from the service and the pilot received a six month prison term. He was released after four and a half months for good behavior....

By February 1999, the victims' families had received little compensation ($65000 per victim) as immediate help by the Italian government, which was reimbursed by the U.S. government. [2] In May 1999, the U.S. Congress rejected a bill that would have set up a $40 million compensation fund for the victims. [3] In December 1999, the Italian legislature approved a generous monetary compensation plan for the families ($1.9 million per victim).

Cavalese cable-car disaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalese_cable-car_disaster)

Italy has made several attempts to have those guilty extradicted to face trialss in Italy.
To be perfectly honest, I was rather surprised that the US actually went so far as to imprison one of those involved for a total of 4 months. I will be equally surpised if anything at all comes of that lawsuit that Germany is attempting right now.

Germany should safeguard their citizen from being wrongly arrested and illegally tortued by overzelous CIA operatives.Maybe Germany should start arresting Americans anywhere in the world and bring them to torture camps somewhere else. After all, Americans are always guilty of something....

Maybe Germany should start arresting Americans anywhere in the world and bring them to torture camps somewhere else. After all, Americans are always guilty of something....
No.
Germany has learned from its past. A valuable lesson indeed.

It's time that some other country realized that as well.

Might does not make right, even though there's very little others can do about it.

Nobody believe that these things will be forgotten any time soon.

:p That cracked me up. It's also wrong, but I'd give it to you as a general statement.

LOL yeah...well I figured some hyperbole was not a bad thing. At least you recognised it for what it was ;)

Yeah, well... about that knowledge... none of the people in power even in the CSU will make Bush look like a communist, not even a non-raving one.
Even our most conservative mainstream parties still fundamentally believe in a *gasp* social market economy, however much slimmed down, so to beat the Republicans in that regard is nigh impossible.

Oh I am quite certain there are CSU members who make conservatives in the US look like Ghandi, having met them. Notice that I did not say CSU/CDU pols...but people in the party. You are right though about the idea of social responsibility...I think the only country in the EU that rejects it is the UK.

Ah, that explains your over-eagerness into the opposite direction, then.

Sorry...you lost me here...over eagerness into the opposite direction? What do you mean?

Yeah, well, both the CDU and the SPD are pretty centrist, really. One is slightly to the right, the other slightly to the left. *shrug*
The CSU is pretty much the CDU's pathetic reactionary little brother everybody outside of Bavaria is embarrassed by.

Yeah this is one thing I am not sure I agree. The CDU is a conservative party. I am not sure about it being designated as centrist...when I lived in Germany back in the day it was, seemingly to me, a rightist party...in so far that Germany could have a rightist mainstream party...given events of 70 years ago. Yeah the CSU - runt of the litter ;)


Now, the NPD is a whole different barrel of worms. They and their ilk have really only one platform and that's "Germany for Germans". They're far-right fringe group lunatics and don't fall into the kind of left/right spectrum that could reasonably be compared to the mainstream parties of any country.

ummm....no, yes, yes, no

Not a different barrel of worms. They vocalise what a percentage think. Yes there is only one platform (as with all extreme racist parties...probably because most find of their supporters struggle to hold even more than one idea in their head at any one time). Yes they are on the fringe (but that does not mean that they have not got a right to state their case...however fucked it is). No. They fall into the rightist category.

As an example - racists in the UK used to vote Tory and not National Front. Activists voted National Front.

Does the US government actuall know what national autonomy is?:rolleyes:

Does the US government actuall know what national autonomy is?:rolleyes:

I think the word you are looking for is sovereignty...and no. It does not. Actually that is not true. It knows its own.

But that is due to the arrogance of power. Every superpower has gone through that stage.

That was my point. I'm for the prosecution of the agents.



Yes, if you were killed or kidnaped or victimized in Italy, or Egypt, or Russia, or anywhere else, especially by the actions of a government agency, and the local government did nothing about it, you can be sure the US would try to prosecute the perpetrators.


Besides, are you really against the punishment of kidnappers and torturers simply because of who's doing the prosecuting?
I don't see that happening. There was a very well publicized case about a girl (U.S. citizen) that was murdered in Aruba. The family did everything they could to get the Dutch to do something, or to at least allow agencies of the U.S. government to help investigate. Nada. No arrests, no convictions, nothing. This is just one example that makes me a little skeptical the Germans can do much about events outside their borders.

I don't see that happening. There was a very well publicized case about a girl (U.S. citizen) that was murdered in Aruba. The family did everything they could to get the Dutch to do something, or to at least allow agencies of the U.S. government to help investigate. Nada. No arrests, no convictions, nothing. This is just one example that makes me a little skeptical the Germans can do much about events outside their borders.


Wow the parallels between the two cases are amazing. I have never seen an example of such relevance. In one case government agents illegally kidnap a foreign national and in the other they don't...

I don't see that happening. There was a very well publicized case about a girl (U.S. citizen) that was murdered in Aruba. The family did everything they could to get the Dutch to do something, or to at least allow agencies of the U.S. government to help investigate. Nada. No arrests, no convictions, nothing. This is just one example that makes me a little skeptical the Germans can do much about events outside their borders.
But it could change something about the events occuring within our borders, and seeing how vital the U.S. bases are for the U.S. and their stupid wars, that'd be an angle to work on.

When you're a guest in my house I expect you to behave like a guest and not like the owner - although your house might be a huge mansion when compared to my little hut, you still don't have any say within my dominion.

If you don't like that, don't let the door hit you on your way out.

It's common courtesy I'd say. Then again, that's something that the U.S. has never (been forced to) learn(ed).

Besides, Aruba is a Sovereign Member State of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. And the Dutch know what sovereignty means...

As far as I understand, this is not so much about actually being able to trial the offenders, but to send a signal that the German justice recognizes that he was victim of a crime and thus can receive official help.

But it could change something about the events occuring within our borders, and seeing how vital the U.S. bases are for the U.S. and their stupid wars, that'd be an angle to work on.


You wouldn't get any arguments from me, if the U.S. was to pull out of Europe. That's one redeployment I'd love to see. We've got a lot of empty bases, right here, that could stand populating. And since the USSR isn't much threat to anyone, I think it's a move that makes sense.

And now back to our topic -- already in progress.

Is this too complicated to get a straight answer?
How 'bout this one:

Many countries (Belgium springs to mind) have laws that states they reserve the right to prosecute people outside their border if the country where it took place will not do so. That's why there's arrest warrant on Dick Cheney and George Bush in some places for crime against humanity.

So, if Germany or the European Union has such a law, they can try to prosecute because it's clear that neither Macedonia nor the USA are willing to prosecute.

How 'bout this one:

Many countries (Belgium springs to mind) have laws that states they reserve the right to prosecute people outside their border if the country where it took place will not do so. That's why there's arrest warrant on Dick Cheney and George Bush in some places for crime against humanity.

So, if Germany or the European Union has such a law, they can try to prosecute because it's clear that neither Macedonia nor the USA are willing to prosecute.

That's the kind of answer I was looking for. Thanks.

That's the kind of answer I was looking for. Thanks.

Anytime, philisophical opposite of mine, anytime.

How 'bout this one:

Many countries (Belgium springs to mind) have laws that states they reserve the right to prosecute people outside their border if the country where it took place will not do so. That's why there's arrest warrant on Dick Cheney and George Bush in some places for crime against humanity.

So, if Germany or the European Union has such a law, they can try to prosecute because it's clear that neither Macedonia nor the USA are willing to prosecute.

I thought thats what I said? waaaaa!

Y'all are a buncha wusses. You gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. So a German gets snatched by a CIA operation and taken to Afghanistan where he has to answer a few questions. He was released and "abuse" is a pretty vague term that doesn't really mean torture. Americans aren't torturers. C'mon now.

Y'all are a buncha wusses. You gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. So a German gets snatched by a CIA operation and taken to Afghanistan where he has to answer a few questions. He was released and "abuse" is a pretty vague term that doesn't really mean torture. Americans aren't torturers. C'mon now.
:rolleyes: Knallkopp!

:rolleyes: Knallkopp!

Heute mal wieder alles voller Knallkoeppe, oder?

Y'all are a buncha wusses. You gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. So a German gets snatched by a CIA operation and taken to Afghanistan where he has to answer a few questions. He was released and "abuse" is a pretty vague term that doesn't really mean torture. Americans aren't torturers. C'mon now.C'mon now, American media is torture. American politics and policies are even worse than torture.

Heute mal wieder alles voller Knallkoeppe, oder?
Oh ja. Schlimm, schlimm. Irgendwer hat den Riegel nicht vorgeschoben und jetzt rennen die alle frei rum! ;):p:D

:rolleyes: Knallkopp!

i too :rolleyes: and i can guess what you mean an go long with it

Oh ja. Schlimm, schlimm. Irgendwer hat den Riegel nicht vorgeschoben und jetzt rennen die alle frei rum! ;):p:D

Kann man nur hoffen, dass sie sie bald wieder alle einfangen.
Schon schlimm was einem hier an manchen Tagen zugemutet wird.

Kann man nur hoffen, dass sie sie bald wieder alle einfangen.
Schon schlimm was einem hier an manchen Tagen zugemutet wird.
Gerade an Tagen wie diesen! So manchem möchte ich zurufen: "Dich soll doch der Blitz beim Scheißen treffen!"

Naja, nächstes Mal mauern wir die Tür einfach zu!

:rolleyes: Knallkopp!

Heute mal wieder alles voller Knallkoeppe, oder?

So gehts..da sind eine menge vegetable rapists.

Miene sprache ist besser als miene schrieben! LOL

Ich brauche ein bier jetz.

So gehts..da sind eine menge vegetable rapists.
The who with the what?!? :eek:
Miene sprache ist besser als miene schrieben! LOL
I know what you mean. Good effort, though.
Ich brauche ein bier jetz.
Who doesn't?

The who with the what?!? :eek:

I was channeling Otto LOL

I know what you mean. Good effort, though.

Its bloody irritating as German is my first language. Then had English shoved down me throat. Although I was born in England...

its a long story....

Who doesn't?

quite ;)

I really miss going out on the piss with my old German work mates....*sigh*

Gerade an Tagen wie diesen! So manchem möchte ich zurufen: "Dich soll doch der Blitz beim Scheißen treffen!"

Naja, nächstes Mal mauern wir die Tür einfach zu!

Versuchen koennen wir's. Aber wie ich diese Torfnasen so einschaetze BEISSEN die sich da auch noch durch...

Edit : Hey, glaubste wir koennten mal wieder nen deutschen Thread gebrauchen? Ist lange her dass ich den alten zuletzt gesehen hab

Y'all are a buncha wusses. You gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. So a German gets snatched by a CIA operation and taken to Afghanistan where he has to answer a few questions. He was released and "abuse" is a pretty vague term that doesn't really mean torture. Americans aren't torturers. C'mon now.

Actually, they are. Americans have been known to use rapist rednecks on their prisoners on a few occasions.

Versuchen koennen wir's. Aber wie ich diese Torfnasen so einschaetze BEISSEN die sich da auch noch durch...
Was zu befürchten wäre!
Edit : Hey, glaubste wir koennten mal wieder nen deutschen Thread gebrauchen? Ist lange her dass ich den alten zuletzt gesehen hab
Weiß nich'. Der alte is' tot, glaub' ich. Ob ein neues Fädchen länger durchhielte...? K.A.!

I don't see that happening. There was a very well publicized case about a girl (U.S. citizen) that was murdered in Aruba. The family did everything they could to get the Dutch to do something, or to at least allow agencies of the U.S. government to help investigate. Nada. No arrests, no convictions, nothing. This is just one example that makes me a little skeptical the Germans can do much about events outside their borders.

But the Aruban government was investigating. They weren't intentionally letting the kidnappers off scott free. In this situation, the US knows exactly who the agents are and where they are, and will in all likelyhood refuse to prosecute, or even acknowledge that a crime has been committed.


Y'all are a buncha wusses. You gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. So a German gets snatched by a CIA operation and taken to Afghanistan where he has to answer a few questions. He was released and "abuse" is a pretty vague term that doesn't really mean torture. Americans aren't torturers. C'mon now.

Nope. This is a serious crime that needs to be punished. Being CIA shouldn't give you immunity from the law.

And Americans are torturers. Bush himself has admitted as much.

Americans arn't some special race. Everyone is capible of brutality and cruelity.