NationStates Jolt Archive

No, not the composer or the computer pundit, silly. The keyboard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard)! :p

The other day, I was typing up a three-page paper and realized: Gee, typing at length sucks. Sore hands, stiff joints, and far too many errors.

Later that day I read about the Dvorak keyboard layout. Apparently, the standard QWERTY keyboard was originally designed for typewriters. Its bizarre layout (the semicolon is on the home row?) was meant to separate common letter pairs so that adjacent keys would not jam when typed in quick succession. Of course, in the digital age, such mechanical problems are irrelevant. But old habits die hard...

But there is an alternative.

http://www.atarimagazines.com/v5n11/dvorak2.jpg

Dvorak, devised by the eponymous American doctor, is supposed to be as efficient and logical as possible. All the most common keys are on the home row ("ASDF JKL;" becomes "AOEU HTNS") while misfits like J, K, and that blasted semicolon are relegated to the fringes. Also, vowels and consonants are separated (for the most part) between the right and left hands, so that the hands can alternate while typing a word and thus type more quickly. Dvorak is said to increase speed, accuracy, and comfort.

I had always thought that learning to type all over again would be a chore, even if it is a technically better system. However, some testimonials I read swayed me a bit. Many people relearned in less than two weeks, and rejoiced over higher speeds and fewer errors. Also, I discovered a use for the Windows Language Bar -- now, I can switch between formats at the press of two buttons (Alt+Shift).

There are some problems too, though. First, there's the issue of resources. Do the benefits justify the effort? Also, how easy is it to use on other computers? Is the language bar a feature on every PC? Finally, the biggest issue: keyboard shortcuts. Is there any way to make sure that Ctrl's-A, Z, X, C, and V still Select All, Undo, Cut, Copy, and Paste, considering that I've memorized them by location (which is, incidentally, quite convenient)?

From searching the forums, I know of at least one other NSG-er (Posi) who has made the change. Has anyone else switched over? Was it worth the time and effort? Any answers would be welcome...

Also: Dvorak typing analyzer (http://dvzine.org/info/input.html). Type or cut-and-paste something into the text box, and it'll tell give you stats on how it would be typed in both formats (% in home row, letter frequencies, etc.)

No, I haven't made the switch. It'll be too difficult since I'll have to type up papers for school and it'll take me forever to learn the new layout (which means typing slower). Also, I'd have to switch up my mindset when using the computer at home and the computers everywhere else. Not worth it, IMHO.

However, I'm not too much a fan of the QWERTY layout, but I got used to it.

I'm used to QWERTY, so I'll keep it.

the decimal system is better than the English measurements too, but nobody wanted to relearn measurements.

I don't think the benefit is going to be enough to prompt a big change over.

When are they going to come up with a system where my computer just types what I'm thinking?

When are they going to come up with a system where my computer just types what I'm thinking?

At about half past never.

the decimal system is better than the English measurements too, but nobody wanted to relearn measurements.
And by "nobody", you mean "the vast majority of the world's population", right? :p

I don't think the benefit is going to be enough to prompt a big change over.
I'm not encouraging mass changeover -- I know that most people are too inertial to make changes to their lives like that. I was just wondering if it's worth it to change on an individual basis.

When are they going to come up with a system where my computer just types what I'm thinking?
Would you really want such a system? Think about it... :eek:

My keyboard is kinda stuck to my laptop, so I can't change. Even so, I have heard of the Dvorak layout before and always wanted to try it.

My keyboard is kinda stuck to my laptop, so I can't change. Even so, I have heard of the Dvorak layout before and always wanted to try it.

What you do is pop the keys off and rearrange them.

My keyboard is kinda stuck to my laptop, so I can't change. Even so, I have heard of the Dvorak layout before and always wanted to try it.
I thought you had to buy a new keyboard too, but apparently every modern PC has Dvorak as a layout option. It's a bit hard to find at first (Start > Control Panel > Regional and Language Options > Languages tab > Details... > Add > Keyboard layout/ME > select Dvorak) -- OK, really hard -- but now that I've activated it I can switch back and forth with the shortcut I mentioned earlier. Yes, the keys stay the same, but you're supposed to learn how to touch-type anyway, no?

Like script vs. handwriting, it's all what you're used to that makes for speed.

I'm too lazy to switch and it might screw up some things here...this being a laptop with minimal "keyboard real estate".

No, not the composer or the computer pundit, silly. The keyboard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard)! :p



when I read your title, I thought you meant

http://www.internationalcartoonclub.com/Dorvac8.jpg
Dorvack!

as soon as there is a keyboard, which supports it (the one with the LEDs to show the letters for example), I'll switch.

How do you switch? I found the option awhile ago, but can;t find it again...and Wiki doesn;t help...or I just can;t find it on wiki...

Eh, I've never really had any problems with the standard keyboard layout. I mean...atleast with 3 pages of writing. Then again I tend to type fast. o_O

How do you switch? I found the option awhile ago, but can;t find it again...and Wiki doesn;t help...or I just can;t find it on wiki...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E86HdYtWwW8

i'm only just getting the hang of qwerty. i really don't need anyone to introduce me to a new layout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E86HdYtWwW8

A bit blurry, but I think I can follow it...the things people do these days...video instructions...now actually, there's an idea. IF I could figure out a way to safely remove all my laptop keys...I'm scared of breaking them, it's happened before. I know regular keyboards are easy to modify though...no that I ever reversed the F keys on any of the school computers to read F12 to F1...

i'm only just getting the hang of qwerty. i really don't need anyone to introduce me to a new layout.

What'd you use before that? A microphone to dictate everything... :confused:

As someone else pointed out. There is no point in learning a new layout. I'm used to QWERTY and everyone uses QWERTY, so I don't have to be able to type in two different layouts.

As someone else pointed out. There is no point in learning a new layout. I'm used to QWERTY and everyone uses QWERTY, so I don't have to be able to type in two different layouts.
Actually, there is a point, or an alternative layout wouldn't exist. Dvorak is faster, more accurate, and reduces risk of carpal tunnel syndrome. The question is, are those benefits worth the week or two it would take to learn another format?

Dammit! I was thinking of Carnival Overture!! Damn you!!

Actually, there is a point, or an alternative layout wouldn't exist. Dvorak is faster, more accurate, and reduces risk of carpal tunnel syndrome. The question is, are those benefits worth the week or two it would take to learn another format?

Week... it took me years to learn QWERTY... although I didn't do it actively... and I still use the backspace key a lot. And like I said. As soon as I go somewhere it's back to QWERTY, and I'm sure it I learn Dvorak I'll forget QWERTY.

I switched to dvorak a while back. It took me about a day or two to make the switch, but then, I knew how to touch-type already, so the mis-labeling of the keys wasn't a big deal. You can actually buy keyboards with both layouts printed on them, but they're a bit expensive since they aren't mass produced.

The only irritating thing is that it's difficult to go back to qwerty, and it's sometimes hard to avoid using someone else's workstation. The place I work for bought me a hardware switchable qwerty/dvorak keyboard so that other people could type at my computer without any trouble.

The windows setting is kind of a pain in the neck, since switching the layout with the tray icon only switches the current window. It's good that they at least support additional layouts, though. Dvorak layouts are kind of neat... there are even right- and left-handed layouts, aimed for people who only have the use of one hand.

But there is an alternative.

There are several hundreds of alternatives. Some even very un-qwertylike.
Examples:
http://www.infogrip.com/product_view.asp?RecordNumber=12
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velotype

As the OP said, I made the switch. IIRC, I made it sometime during the summer. took about 4 days to get to a reasonable pace, a week and a half to be faster than QWERTY, and about a month and a half to touch type(something I never managed to accomplish on QWERTY). I still have to use QWERTY at school, and am actually getting close to touch typing (lol). With our schools account system, I could set my account to dvorak and not effect anyone else, but meh.

For those who are worried about their games: most newer games manage the keyboard itself. That means that while all the commands will be labeled wrong in the menus, but the keys will be in the same spot. Older games like Diablo 2, will be affected, but for newer games WASD becomes ,AOE to keep it in the same spot. That was a nice surprise once I got past the confusion.

EDIT: When you do make the switch, there will be a few days were you cannot type on either layout effectively.

Also, I think Upward Thrust uses dvorak.

the decimal system is better than the English measurements too, but nobody wanted to relearn measurements.

I don't think the benefit is going to be enough to prompt a big change over.

When are they going to come up with a system where my computer just types what I'm thinking?

They've already got it. Now they're working on people who can control what they're thinking so that business reports don't go, "so third quarter earning show that chick at the coffee shop was hot. I wonder if she'll be there tomorrow, oh shit, did I just type that? don't think about women, women, women, breasts sex, blowjobs... SHIT!!! BASEBALL, SPREADSHEETS, spreadeagle, dammit!!!"

They've already got it. Now they're working on people who can control what they're thinking so that business reports don't go, "so third quarter earning show that chick at the coffee shop was hot. I wonder if she'll be there tomorrow, oh shit, did I just type that? don't think about women, women, women, breasts sex, blowjobs... SHIT!!! BASEBALL, SPREADSHEETS, spreadeagle, dammit!!!"

I'd pay to watch that.

Its easier to write 1337 in QWERTY…

I prefer the 8th and 9th symphonies...

EDIT: I just typed this in Dvorak :) Tis odd.

i prefer AZERTY.

http://widgets.opera.com/widget/4857


this is a test of the dvorak thing vs the qwerty thing. let's see how much i have to move my fingers... woo!

Fingers moved
DVORAK: 50.5 cm
QWERTY: 94.9 cm


*nods*

I wub Dvorak. I switched two or three years ago.

It's so much more comfortable, and maybe a bit quicker. And it confuses the hell out of anyone who uses your computer, so it's worth it just for that ;)

You don't need a new keyboard, or even to move keys around. I use a Microsoft Natural 4000 (best keyboard ever!) and it's brilliant.

I just want a UK Dvorak layout (ALT+0163 gets tedious) for XPx64...

Well, I have switched my keyboard around. Which was somewhat annoying. seems that my keyboard letters F&J have different shaped (sideways) pegs. So some of my keys are sideways.

So far it's taking longer to type, but learning quick.

On a related note are there any typing drill type programs that will help improve my speed on this layout?

On a related note are there any typing drill type programs that will help improve my speed on this layout?

Yes. I think I used this one:
http://gigliwood.com/abcd/abcd.html

Unfortunately Typing of the Dead is QWERTY only :(

Found a program called "Master Key" which does drills. Though after each one it bitches at me to register. Typing on here in QWERTY and DVORAK in it. Somewhat confusing. Also because I hadn't realized I'd switched.

Pff, screw that. We'll be dictating everything before any alternative comes into widespread use.

What the hell is the point?

Pff, screw that. We'll be dictating everything before any alternative comes into widespread use.

Dictation is too slow and ambiguous to be useful for everything. Can you imagine coding by dictation?
How would you dictate:

if( x != y) x++;

which is a very simple line of C. How does it know you want 'y' instead of "why"? '+' instead of "plus"? Etcetera.

Even for standard word processing it'd become a pain in the arse for some things. Keyboards are just easier. And, if you're a decent typist (better than me, admittedly), faster too.

Dictation is too slow and ambiguous to be useful for everything. Can you imagine coding by dictation?
How would you dictate:

if( x != y) x++;

which is a very simple line of C. How does it know you want 'y' instead of "why"? '+' instead of "plus"? Etcetera.

Which is why it's a good thing we're talking about many many years before a widespread change. By that point, we'll be dictating wi-fi brainwaves.

Dictation is too slow and ambiguous to be useful for everything.
Plus, punctuation would be a disaster with dictation. Punctuation is at least as important as the words you use.

And what's wrong with the semi-colon on the home row? I use semi-colons quite often; I find them very useful.

The problem with the qwerty keyboard is the whole "home row" concept. Without the need to apply anything resembling force to the keys, holding one's hands in a fixed location over the home row is no longer necessary. Abandoning traditional typing technique is a much better solution than reorienting the keys.


Also, Qwerty does a lousy job of separating common letter pairs given that GHT is all together in the middle.

And what's wrong with the semi-colon on the home row? I use semi-colons quite often; I find them very useful.

Yeah, they are; I use them more than is good for me. But still, far less frequently than the letter 'e', say, or any other vowel.

At least we don't clog up the server with proper colons. Imagine it straining under all that data.

Plus, punctuation would be a disaster with dictation. Punctuation is at least as important as the words you use.

And what's wrong with the semi-colon on the home row? I use semi-colons quite often; I find them very useful.

The problem with the qwerty keyboard is the whole "home row" concept. Without the need to apply anything resembling force to the keys, holding one's hands in a fixed location over the home row is no longer necessary. Abandoning traditional typing technique is a much better solution than reorienting the keys.
.

I don't remember the "home row" actually being a part of the qwerty keyboard design, just part of every typing instructor, ever. And they all pissed me off. I agree on abandoning that particular technique.

What the hell is the point?
Congratulations on failing to read the OP.

Yeah, they are; I use them more than is good for me. But still, far less frequently than the letter 'e', say, or any other vowel.

At least we don't clog up the server with proper colons. Imagine it straining under all that data.
Colons do have their uses. Such as:

starting lists like this one;
something else, I'm sure

The point is that punctuation, which is not adequately represented in speech, is a very important aspect of our language. Without it, the incredible level of precision currently available to English speakers would be lost.

That is why I deem the written language vastly superior to the spoken language.

Colons do have their uses. Such as:

starting lists like this one;
something else, I'm sure

The point is that punctuation, which is not adequately represented in speech, is a very important aspect of our language. Without it, the incredible level of precision currently available to English speakers would be lost.

That is why I deem the written language vastly superior to the spoken language.

And, what, intonation and the like mean nothing to you?

The point is that punctuation, which is not adequately represented in speech, is a very important aspect of our language. Without it, the incredible level of precision currently available to English speakers would be lost.

That is why I deem the written language vastly superior to the spoken language.

Say wha? Written punctuation is meant to replicate the pauses and rhythms of the spoken word, not the other way around.

Abandoning traditional typing technique is a much better solution than reorienting the keys.

Yeah, I just use my own cobbled together method...sort of like a hunt and peck/traditional hybrid. :)

And, what, intonation and the like mean nothing to you?
Intonation does not capture to full variety of punctuation, no. Quotation marks are a good example of punctuation that ins't represented by the spoken language.

Plus, I know of no ruleset that can teach me how to use and interpret intonation as clearly as I can punctuation. I invite you to recommend a source of that knowledge.
Say wha? Written punctuation is meant to replicate the pauses and rhythms of the spoken word, not the other way around.
Furthermore, not all commas are created equally. Commas play an important role in identifying clauses in sentences. Not all commas are spoken with a pause, and not all pauses are represented with commas.

For examples, I recommend anything written by Charles Dickens.

Intonation does not capture to full variety of punctuation, no. Quotation marks are a good example of punctuation that ins't represented by the spoken language.

Plus, I know of no ruleset that can teach me how to use and interpret intonation as clearly as I can punctuation. I invite you to recommend a source of that knowledge.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People

I just switched and I type only likey 10 keys per minute now...this'll take awhile...I'm all dizzy searching for keys and my fingers keep wanting to use the old key locations :rolleyes: :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People
If something's knowlable, it's learnable from a book.

If something's knowlable, it's learnable from a book.
Sex?

I've been using Dvorak for a few years. I think it took me about two weeks to become comfortable enough to use it full-time, switching back to QWERTY when I wanted to quickly write something (typing with a new keyboard layout during a multiplayer action game is not fun!). It seems to be better for my hands, although I'm not sure about that, and I don't really have a clue how it's affected my typing speed or accuracy. Despite doing so very infrequently, I can still sort of type in QWERTY...I'd say Dvorak is at least worth a try.

This is in QWERTY and took me 34 seconds (including time to re-insert mistakes I automatically deleted so you could get a feeling for the degree of inaccuracy) without peeking until X. If you're wondering why I hit C when going for J, it's because C in QWERTY is J in Dvorak...So when using QWERTY I'm slow and have some trouble with adjacent (actually, I've noticed I often hit one key to the right if I'm sitting too far to the right, so that may have been part of the problem) or rarely used letters and less frequently go for the right letter in the wrong keyboard layout.
A B C F D E F HG H I CKJ K L M N O P WQ R S T U BV EW X Y Z

This is in Dvorak and took just under 15 seconds. I'm not sure why I put two spaces between U and V...
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

Sex?
Sure. Skill at sex could well be encapsulated in text.

I can switch between qwerty and azert pretty simply but that comes from having lived in france for few years.Still have to do a double take when it comes to it though.