NationStates Jolt Archive


Canadian PM dismisses Kyoto accord as a "socialist scheme"

Congo--Kinshasa
31-01-2007, 06:19
Harper's letter dismisses Kyoto as 'socialist scheme'
Last Updated: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 | 10:15 PM ET
CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/credit.html)


Prime Minister Stephen Harper once called the Kyoto accord a "socialist scheme" designed to suck money out of rich countries, according to a letter leaked Tuesday by the Liberals.

The letter, posted on the federal Liberal party website, was apparently written by Harper in 2002, when he was leader of the now-defunct Canadian Alliance party.

He was writing to party supporters, asking for money as he prepared to fight then-prime minister Jean Chrétien on the proposed Kyoto accord.

"We're gearing up now for the biggest struggle our party has faced since you entrusted me with the leadership," Harper's letter says.

"I'm talking about the 'battle of Kyoto' — our campaign to block the job-killing, economy-destroying Kyoto accord."

The accord is an international environmental pact that sets targets for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

Canada officially ratified the accord Dec. 17, 2002, under Chrétien's Liberal government. Harper's Conservative government, which took power January 2006, has since been accused of ignoring the accord.

Harper's letter goes on to outline why he's against the agreement.

Accord based on 'contradictory' data: Harper

He writes that it's based on "tentative and contradictory scientific evidence" and it focuses on carbon dioxide, which is "essential to life."

He says Kyoto requires that Canada make significant cuts in emissions, while countries like Russia, India and China face less of a burden.

Under Kyoto, Canada was required to reduce emissions by six per cent by 2012, while economies in transition, like Russia, were allowed to choose different base years.

"Kyoto is essentially a socialist scheme to suck money out of wealth-producing nations," Harper's letter reads.

He said the accord would cripple the oil and gas industries, which are essential to Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia.

He wrote in the letter that he would do everything he could to stop Chrétien from passing the Kyoto agreement.

"We will do everything we can to stop him there, but he might get it passed with the help of the socialists in the NDP and the separatists in the BQ [Bloc Québécois]."

The Prime Minister's Office refused to comment about the letter on the record.

In recent weeks, Harper has spoken strongly about the environment, saying he will dramatically revamp his minority government's much-criticized Clean Air Act.

His comments come as public-opinion polls indicate the environment has become the number one issue among Canadians.

Liberal MP Mark Holland told the Canadian Press on Tuesday that the leaked letter shows that Harper isn't actually committed to climate change.

"Now, suddenly, because he has seen the polls and realized the political opportunism of going green, the prime minister has launched a new campaign — that of trying to convince Canadians that he actually cares about the environment," Holland said.

"But no one is buying it."

The Kyoto Protocol went into effect Feb. 16, 2005, with 141 countries signing on, including every major industrialized country, except the United States, Australia and Monaco.


Linky (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/01/30/harper-kyoto.html)

Thoughts?
Neo Undelia
31-01-2007, 06:23
Thoughts?
I don’t think it’s a Socialist scheme, and to say such is proof of idiocy. It's just a bad idea and an overreaction to a problem that probably isn’t as big a deal as it’s made out to be, would cause more damage in an attempt to fix than good would be done fixing it and is probably irreversible at this point.

It’s actually one of the few international initiatives I don’t support on the merit that it’s an international initiative.
The Nazz
31-01-2007, 06:24
His rhetoric, assuming the article is accurate, makes him sound like an opportunist, which just means he's speaking politics. I'd have to see his actual suggested policies. I mean, Bush talks a good game occasionally when it comes down to the environment, but when you look at the legislation, it's all drilling and voluntary compliance and Orwellian speak like the Clear Skies Initiative.
Mikesburg
31-01-2007, 06:28
Well, no surprise here really. Naturally the party that has it's strongest support in Alberta will do everything in its power to prevent what they might see as the end of economic prosperity.

At any rate, you'd have to be completely brainwashed to believe that Harper's new Green thumb is anything but political expediency.

Yup. Harper's not a socialist. News Flash.
New Ausha
31-01-2007, 06:31
Kyoto is a little strict. Loosen it up a little and it sounds better too me. Harper is too inclined against it.
Socialist Pyrates
31-01-2007, 06:46
Harper's letter dismisses Kyoto as 'socialist scheme'
Last Updated: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 | 10:15 PM ET
CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/credit.html)

Linky (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/01/30/harper-kyoto.html)

Thoughts?

no surprise but nice timing to reveal it I'm sure it wasn't by accident it was leaked just as the conservative attack adds on Dion aired...

it was apparent Harper had no interest in the environment when he let Rona Ambrose completely embarrass the country on the international stage...a political lightweight in a high profile position...only now that the enivironment has moved to the top of voter concerns does he suddenly become mister Super Green, staying in power and protecting the oil industry is his only concern...
Dobbsworld
31-01-2007, 06:48
Kyoto is a little strict. Loosen it up a little and it sounds better too me. Harper is too inclined against it.

Well, too bad for the friends of Mr. Harper.
Socialist Pyrates
31-01-2007, 07:02
Kyoto is a little strict. Loosen it up a little and it sounds better too me. Harper is too inclined against it.

not so strict that two Euro countries Britain and Sweden are on target for meeting their Kyoto targets and Germany is not far off, so it can be done if the will is there...
Vetalia
31-01-2007, 07:25
not so strict that two Euro countries Britain and Sweden are on target for meeting their Kyoto targets and Germany is not far off, so it can be done if the will is there...

Yes, but don't forget that Canada has the energy industry, which is harder to conform to emissions targets, especially during bull markets like the one that has been going on since 1999.

Even so, this is ridiculous. If major energy companies are getting behind these schemes, it's more than a little ridiculous to keep denying them and trying to stop the implementation of emissions controls. Man-made/man-affected global warming is a reality backed by solid science and clear evidence, and to deny it at a critical point like this is unparalleled idiocy.
Callisdrun
31-01-2007, 07:30
Always did think Harper was a bit of a nincompoop.
Socialist Pyrates
31-01-2007, 07:34
Yes, but don't forget that Canada has the energy industry, which is harder to conform to emissions targets, especially during a boom like there is now.

Even so, this is ridiculous. If major energy companies are getting behind these schemes, it's more than a little ridiculous to keep denying them and trying to stop the implementation of emissions controls. Man-made/man-affected global warming is a reality backed by solid science and clear evidence, and to deny it at a critical point like this is unparalleled idiocy.

it can be done Canadian conservatives thoughts are that nothing should come between a man and his profit, talk of cutting emissions is mutiny!....the wealth associated the energy industry here is astounding(I know because I live in the heart of it) but it's like an addiction it's awesome now but it will destroy us in the end...

highly irresponsible industry, huge tracts of pristine land being destroyed, tremendous waste of a more valuable resource water is used to extract the oil, and for each barrel of oil extracted the natural gas is burnt to do so is sufficient to heat a home for 4 days...
Neu Leonstein
31-01-2007, 07:39
not so strict that two Euro countries Britain and Sweden are on target for meeting their Kyoto targets and Germany is not far off, so it can be done if the will is there...
And now the EU has come in and put in even stricter targets (linky (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,458932,00.html)). And apparently someone actually cares this time, because Germany has announced that it will close its last coal mines (linky (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,463172,00.html)).
Vetalia
31-01-2007, 07:40
it can be done Canadian conservatives thoughts are that nothing should come between a man and his profit, talk of cutting emissions is mutiny!....the wealth associated the energy industry here is astounding(I know because I live in the heart of it) but it's like an addiction it's awesome now but it will destroy us in the end...

It comes at a very high price; the environmental devastation of oil-sands mining is pretty much equivalent to the open-pit and strip mines in Appalachia back in the 19th and early 20th centuries. You'll be recovering from that long after oil is obsolete...we're talking decades of damage.

Ironically, of course, cutting emissions can actually be very profitable if you're smart enough to invest in fields that would benefit.

highly irresponsible industry, huge tracts of pristine land being destroyed, tremendous waste of a more valuable resource water is used to extract the oil, and for each barrel of oil extracted the natural gas is burnt to do so is sufficient to heat a home for 4 days...

The irony being, of course, that natural gas is a superior fuel to oil in virtually all respects. That's the curse of fossil fuels, though...even though technologically speaking they're approaching the end of their utility, the profits from them are still enough to justify exploiting them.
Vetalia
31-01-2007, 07:42
And now the EU has come in and put in even stricter targets (linky (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,458932,00.html)). And apparently someone actually cares this time, because Germany has announced that it will close its last coal mines (linky (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,463172,00.html)).

I have a question about this: Has Germany implemented plans to phase out its lignite mines in the East? Those seem like pretty nasty polluters, if the combination of East German industrial pollution and the inherent dirtiness of lignite are still problems.
New Mitanni
31-01-2007, 07:47
There may be hope for Canada yet. Props to Harper.
Greater Trostia
31-01-2007, 07:49
There may be hope for Canada yet. Props to Harper.

You'd say the same thing if Canada had just passed a law illegalizing the religion of Islam. Who gives a fuck what you think?
Callisdrun
31-01-2007, 07:51
It comes at a very high price; the environmental devastation of oil-sands mining is pretty much equivalent to the open-pit and strip mines in Appalachia back in the 19th and early 20th centuries. You'll be recovering from that long after oil is obsolete...we're talking decades of damage.

Ironically, of course, cutting emissions can actually be very profitable if you're smart enough to invest in fields that would benefit.

Precisely. One can't assume that after we stop using oil (which we will, eventually, one way or another, as it's finite) that we will simply stop using fuel. Because the need for energy will still be there, there will probably be a huge boom in what we today call "alternative energy sources."
Neu Leonstein
31-01-2007, 08:06
I have a question about this: Has Germany implemented plans to phase out its lignite mines in the East?
No. They actually make a profit, so they don't depend on subsidies.

This (http://www.braunkohle.de/) is the website of the lignite association, and these are their "10 Facts on Lignite" (http://www.braunkohle.de/braunkohle/fakten_e.pdf). I think you shouldn't make the mistake of assuming that lignite mining is still being done to GDR standards...that time is over. There are strict environmental laws in place, plus the media is keeping an eye on them. What they are doing is trying to make some of the mined areas nice again (linky (http://www.spiegel.de/reise/europa/0,1518,294468,00.html))

They're really into the whole geosequestration idea too. Putting a lot of money into that.

Some more links:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,430655,00.html
http://www.verlagdrkovac.de/3-8300-2363-4.htm
http://www.mining-technology.com/projects/rhineland/
Socialist Pyrates
31-01-2007, 08:11
It comes at a very high price; the environmental devastation of oil-sands mining is pretty much equivalent to the open-pit and strip mines in Appalachia back in the 19th and early 20th centuries. You'll be recovering from that long after oil is obsolete...we're talking decades of damage.


the strip mines of Appalachia are dwarfed by the scale of these mines...these mines are out of sight of the general public in sparsely populated area, those that live there are profiting from the mines so don't really care...I think public opinion would change if people could see what was happening to the enviroment...