NationStates Jolt Archive

It would seem that islamophobia is increasingly getting higher by the day. My question is, why? Why is it that so many people are afraid of Muslims? I have surrounded myself by many things Islam, including music, movie, literature, etc... After doing so, I seem to like Muslims more so than I like many of my fellow Christians.

Anyways, I saw this article (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467834546&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) on the JPOST website like two days ago, and I was intrigued that someone is making such a big deal about Muslims living in Europe. Are Europeans actually starting to turn as Islamophobic as many Americans?

Quick hide so we can jump out and yell "surprise" when they get here. Itll be so much fun and then we can all have a good laugh about how we startled them.

Oh man, they are SO going to get us back for this.

Beacuse they're not like us! They don't look like us, they don't act like us, they want to be treated equally and with respect, and they refuse to give up their heathen religion and values and become whitebread Christians (who only go to church twice a year now) just like us. /sarcasm

If it helps, just about every immigrant group in the US has undergone the same if there's a wave of them. Everyone seems to forget that within 3 generations they have been assimilated and the country addaped and made stronger by what they added... just in time to scream about the new wave.

Quick hide so we can jump out and yell "surprise" when they get here. Itll be so much fun and then we can all have a good laugh about how we startled them.

Oh man, they are SO going to get us back for this.

Would they get pissed if we sprayed them with Champagne?

Many Europeans are more Islamo-phobic than Americans. Most of this is due to the fact that a significant portion of Muslim immigrants refuse to be integrated in European society and retain their conservative religious values, which are at odds to liberal European philosophies. Some fear that Muslims wielding excessive political clout can turn their countries in the wrong direction and towards more stringent social controls.

That thread title reminded me of something...oh, yes. This (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,456751,00.html).

It would seem that islamophobia is increasingly getting higher by the day. My question is, why? Why is it that so many people are afraid of Muslims? I have surrounded myself by many things Islam, including music, movie, literature, etc... After doing so, I seem to like Muslims more so than I like many of my fellow Christians.

Anyways, I saw this article (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467834546&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) on the JPOST website like two days ago, and I was intrigued that someone is making such a big deal about Muslims living in Europe. Are Europeans actually starting to turn as Islamophobic as many Americans?
It's primarily "re-reactionary", really. The actions and political stances of the "western radicals" (ie, its leadership. Yay. ¬¬) collectively since 9/11 have been rather anti-Islamic from any objective standpoint. The main Muslim response to this has been to say "We're not really like that; this is what we are like". The problem is that, while rightly pointing out that the "western" stance stereotyping them is unfair and unjustified, what this has done is replace the image of a brutal and violent, freedom hating group of fanatical religious types with an image of Islam really quite similar to its other traditional monotheist counterparts.

People don't like that. They were quite happy to denounce the railing against Islam as the terrorist religion of choice as sheer Bushist propaganda beforehand; now they've got to deal with the fact that, like the American Christians, Islam is actually very conservative in its social and political attitudes, which introduces a great deal of discomfort to those who still hold to the ideal of a multicultural society.

That thread title reminded me of something...oh, yes. This (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,456751,00.html).
Funny, the thread title reminded me of something quite different (http://www.homevideos.com/movies-covers/The%20Russians%20are%20Coming.jpg). :p

It would seem that islamophobia is increasingly getting higher by the day. My question is, why? Why is it that so many people are afraid of Muslims? I have surrounded myself by many things Islam, including music, movie, literature, etc... After doing so, I seem to like Muslims more so than I like many of my fellow Christians.

Anyways, I saw this article (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467834546&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) on the JPOST website like two days ago, and I was intrigued that someone is making such a big deal about Muslims living in Europe. Are Europeans actually starting to turn as Islamophobic as many Americans?

I wouldnt wanna live in a muslim majority area, too conservative for my taste. So I understand why they are concerned by numbers, it's not rocket science...

.

Would they get pissed if we sprayed them with Champagne?

only one way to find out! :D

My question is, why? Why is it that so many people are afraid of Muslims? I have surrounded myself by many things Islam, including music, movie, literature, etc...

You're intelligent and open-minded. Most people are not.

Does that answer your question?

It would seem that islamophobia is increasingly getting higher by the day. My question is, why? Why is it that so many people are afraid of Muslims? I have surrounded myself by many things Islam, including music, movie, literature, etc... After doing so, I seem to like Muslims more so than I like many of my fellow Christians.

Anyways, I saw this article (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467834546&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) on the JPOST website like two days ago, and I was intrigued that someone is making such a big deal about Muslims living in Europe. Are Europeans actually starting to turn as Islamophobic as many Americans?

well all that car torching and rioting in paris might have something to do with it. And that guy (I believe he was dutch) that was killed by islamic extremists because he made a video that they found offensive. And those train bombings in spain, and those bus bombings in england.

Europeans have plenty of reasons to be Islamophobic.

I don't support the idea of judging people in groups, but I understand perfectly why people are scared. People are scared of things they don't understand, like other cultures and religions, and when a portion of those groups they are naturally frightened of are violent it is even more understandable.

Don't be so quick to judge people or to condemn them.

Many Europeans are more Islamo-phobic than Americans. Most of this is due to the fact that a significant portion of Muslim immigrants refuse to be integrated in European society and retain their conservative religious values, which are at odds to liberal European philosophies. Some fear that Muslims wielding excessive political clout can turn their countries in the wrong direction and towards more stringent social controls.
I agree -- I know that if I lived in Europe, I'd probably feel the same way. Of course, as an American, I often have the same opinion of fundamentalist Christians here, so I wouldn't exactly call myself "Islamophobic". More like "anti-progressive quasi-fascistic intolerantly-self-righteous religion-o-phobic". :p

(Although, since a "phobia" is generally an irrational fear, would such a mindset justifiably be called that?)

well all that car torching and rioting in paris might have something to do with it. And that guy (I believe he was dutch) that was killed by islamic extremists because he made a video that they found offensive. And those train bombings in spain, and those bus bombings in england.

Europeans have plenty of reasons to be Islamophobic.

I don't support the idea of judging people in groups, but I understand perfectly why people are scared. People are scared of things they don't understand, like other cultures and religions, and when a portion of those groups they are naturally frightened of are violent it is even more understandable.

Don't be so quick to judge people or to condemn them.

but i like condemning narrow minded people who can't think for themselves or see past stereotypes. it's what they're there for. if no-one condemned their moronic attitudes they would never learn and every new generation they produce would carry on with the same infantile xenophobia.

There is a lot about Islam that I do not like, mostly doctrinal stuff about fatalism, and individualism and stuff like that. But I try to keep my judgments about the faith out of my judgments about the people. Although if any Muslim claims to support the fatwa against Salman Rushdie, or claims that Israel has no right to exist, then I am prone to become quite prejudiced... or is that postjudiced?

I think its because there are allot of knee-jerk folks out there most of which only see Muslims from the news (guess Immigration is still too slow :eek:) give it a few years and we can fear something else just like Y2K and before that an Irishman with a briefcase

SNIP

I dislike all extremists myself especially of the religious type

Because, like most groups, there's a smaller group of assholes within the Muslim faith that make things harder for everyone by going ballistic over everything and destroying people and things when they get offended. Unfortunately, many, many things offend this group.

Every group has its jerks, and Islam's have been in the news recently.

I don't honestly think Americans are Islamophobic as you may think. I'm an American Muslim and have many Muslim friends. I don't hear of bad things being said or happening to my friends. So just don't think it is as widespread as people believe. Europe I can't speak for but America has always been tolerant of others beliefs. This is why a lot of Muslims feel no problems with living in the US. I am sure one could point out isolated incidents. But honestly you could take any religious or ethnic group and point to the same types of items and call it a phobia.

I don't honestly think Americans are Islamophobic as you may think. I'm an American Muslim and have many Muslim friends. I don't hear of bad things being said or happening to my friends. So just don't think it is as widespread as people believe. Europe I can't speak for but America has always been tolerant of others beliefs. This is why a lot of Muslims feel no problems with living in the US. I am sure one could point out isolated incidents. But honestly you could take any religious or ethnic group and point to the same types of items and call it a phobia.

I wish I could say the same, but so many Americans are Islamaphobic. I should move to Dearborn, Michigan...

Anyways, all these ignorant coments about Muslims are getting old. Soon, it'll be: "The Protocals of the Imams of Mecca" claiming that Muslims are trying to take over the world and claiming that we beat all 80 of our wifes and drink their blood.

Seriously, the same comments are being made about us, and they're getting old. I wish the ignorant would actually THINK for once...

In the near future, the U.S. faces a new enemy, with a familiar strategy. One man remembered, when the Irish and the Italians handed his beloved country to the pope aided by the traitorous politically correct left. He fights....to save his country from the emerging threat from the east. [/movie guy voice]

Red scare II: The Brown Menace

Coming soon from Everybody Panic Productions.

Soon, it'll be: "The Protocals of the Imams of Mecca" claiming that Muslims are trying to take over the world and claiming that we beat all 80 of our wifes and drink their blood.

You ARE.

You ARE.

Prove it.

You ARE.

Well, who honestly isn't trying to take over the world? If there was no Islam, don't you think that Christians would rule the world with an Iron Fist over every society? Islam was a balancing act to the expansionist catholics.

You ARE.

Considering how much we terrorize the world and are warmongers, wouldn't you think that the world would've already been taken over by Muslims?

Prove it.

Sure. There was a quote in the paper yesterday from a muslim who says Westerners should be submissive to muslims. Case closed.

Sure. There was a quote in the paper yesterday from a muslim who says Westerners should be submissive to muslims. Case closed.

There was a quote in the paper yesterday from an Atheist that said that all Christians should die. Case closed.

Sure. There was a quote in the paper yesterday from a muslim who says Westerners should be submissive to muslims. Case closed.

Note the key word "A". It wasn't the entire Muslim community, was it?

There was a quote in the paper yesterday from an Atheist that said that all Christians should die. Case closed.

Sure there was.

Sure there was.

I'm sure he/she was trying to make a point, by showing you that just because one loon says it, doesn't mean the whole group feels the same way.

Sure there was.

Do you get my drift yet?

Note the key word "A". It wasn't the entire Muslim community, was it?

He was one of their voodoo priests (no offence to voodoo followers) at a very popular mosque.

The Muslims are coming!

Oh my, I do hope they are using protection.

He was one of their voodoo priests (no offence to voodoo followers) at a very popular mosque.

Since you don't seem to be getting the argument, let's try another one.

Show me a place in the Qur'an OR Hadith (I'm being generous) that commands that Muslims kill innocent people (the full verse/Hadith, please).

He was one of their voodoo priests (no offence to voodoo followers) at a very popular mosque.

Voodoo priests? I don't recall their being voodoo in islam, unless its like a backwoods cult or smething????

Since you don't seem to be getting the argument, let's try another one.

Show me a place in the Qur'an OR Hadith (I'm being generous) that commands that Muslims kill innocent people (the full verse/Hadith, please).

I can only imagine what bits and pieces of scripture he will bring up. Its the same o' same o'. Prolly use answeringislam.com or something.

Show me a place in the Qur'an OR Hadith (I'm being generous) that commands that Muslims kill innocent people (the full verse/Hadith, please).

Don't need one.

Don't need one.

Because you can't find one.

Sure. There was a quote in the paper yesterday from a muslim who says Westerners should be submissive to muslims. Case closed.

A german guy said yesterday that Germany should take over the world. Case closed, All Germans get the death penalty.

A german guy said yesterday that Germany should take over the world. Case closed, All Germans get the death penalty.

He'd be in jail now.

He'd be in jail now.

You still don't see the logic and reasoning?

Because you can't find one.

Even if I couldn't, it doesn't matter. 9/11, Bali x2, London x2, Cologne, Madrid, India xSeveral, Iraq xThousands. islam is bad.

That excuse has been used a few too many times.

I bought-
1. Oh, 90% of muslims aren't arab, so you can't blame us...
2. Oh, Al Qaeda is just a bunch of fringe radicals. You have crazy christians too!
3. Oh, the Taliban is just one theocratic government that hates the west and jews...
4. Oh, Iran is just one theocratic government that hates the west and jews...
5. Oh, that hostage crisis was ages ago, and Iran had a whole different government...
6. Oh, those schools that preech hate for the west in Saudi Arabia aren't that bad...

and so on, and so on...

The facts are piling up. Lets ignore the middle east, Russia, and China for the moment. I just want to key in on two little things.

-Non-arab muslims in the U.S. and europe, who enjoy freedom of speech and have the right to bitch as much as the rest of us- are now advocating violence, in large numbers.
-Don't forget, muslim students in the U.S., getting free education on student visas (in particular the University of South Florida, but widespread), HAD PARTIES AND CELEBRATED ON 9/11. Police were called out to protect them.

So, I am now saying it straight out.

Although there is a sizeable portion of the muslim world that is peaceful, evidence suggests that Islam is predominantly a zenophobic religion which preaches hate of all other religions, and encourages its members to act violently in the name of God.

I'm sorry, but if it walks like a duck, acts like a duck, and looks like a duck...then it's a fucking duck.

Even if I couldn't, it doesn't matter. 9/11, Bali x2, London x2, Cologne, Madrid, India xSeveral, Iraq xThousands. islam is bad.

Red Herring, how does this prove that Islam is going to conquer the world?

Red Herring, how does this prove that Islam is going to conquer the world?

It's proves that they want to. And they have the population to do it.

Even if I couldn't, it doesn't matter. 9/11, Bali x2, London x2, Cologne, Madrid, India xSeveral, Iraq xThousands. islam is bad.

Should we tally up casualties from every othe fucking group that exists in the world, and see how they compare? I think that Islam would be low on that list in comparison to things christians have done, or westerners for that matter of fact. Get over it, you are a grade A classic bigot, whose only intent is to troll and piss people off. Well good job, cuz i am pissed :p

It's proves that they want to. And they have the population to do it.

No. It proves that some Muslims have killed people and thats it.

Fail.

Should we tally up casualties from every othe fucking group that exists in the world, and see how they compare? I think that Islam would be low on that list in comparison to things christians have done, or westerners for that matter of fact. Get over it, you are a grade A classic bigot, whose only intent is to troll and piss people off. Well good job, cuz i am pissed :p

Nobody else has the numbers to take over the world. islam does.

Nobody else has the numbers to take over the world. islam does.

please the US has 300+ million with the best weaponary, they can take over if they wanted to. Or lets see, Christianity has more followers than Islam, right? They have the numbers to do it. You are failing at this game.

Nobody else has the numbers to take over the world. islam does.

So if a group has a large number of people, then they will take over the world.


Christianity is the largest religion.
There are over a billion Indians.
Around a billion Chinese.

Are Islam, Christianity, China, and India all going to take over the world?

So if a group has a large number of people, then they will take over the world.


Christianity is the largest religion.
There are over a billion Indians.
Around a billion Chinese.

Are Islam, Christianity, China, and India all going to take over the world?

Christianity is too fragmented. But China and India will try.

Christianity is too fragmented. But China and India will try.

Islam is very fragmented as well. See also, Sunni vs. Shi'a.

Christianity is too fragmented.
As is Islam, Sunni vs. Shi'a, also both Sunni Islam as well as Shi'a Islam are fragmented into several groups.

But China and India will try.

Red Herring, again.

It would seem that islamophobia is increasingly getting higher by the day. My question is, why? Why is it that so many people are afraid of Muslims? I have surrounded myself by many things Islam, including music, movie, literature, etc... After doing so, I seem to like Muslims more so than I like many of my fellow Christians.

Anyways, I saw this article (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467834546&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) on the JPOST website like two days ago, and I was intrigued that someone is making such a big deal about Muslims living in Europe. Are Europeans actually starting to turn as Islamophobic as many Americans?

Does the term "9/11" ring a bell?

It's because of things like 9/11, and their cries for death to anyone who cartoons or caricatures their so-called "prophet" Mohammed, that we don't like them.

We cherish religious freedom, but Islamic radicals utterly abhor it because it goes against THEIR religion.

Even if I couldn't, it doesn't matter. 9/11, Bali x2, London x2, Cologne, Madrid, India xSeveral, Iraq xThousands. islam is bad.

So you're telling me that you judge Islam not based on how Muslims are supposed to act, but how some Muslims act?

Like I said earlier, I which the ignorant would start thinking.

So if a group has a large number of people, then they will take over the world.


Christianity is the largest religion.
There are over a billion Indians.
Around a billion Chinese.

Are Islam, Christianity, China, and India all going to take over the world?

I don't know about China and India, but a chief difference between Christianity and Islam is that Christianity does NOT teach Christians to "take over the world" in the name of Jesus Christ - He will do that all by Himself one day, and WE Christians won't need to lift a finger to help Him.

Islam, on the other hand, DOES teach Muslims to take over the world and fight the infidels until they are all either dead or converted to Islam. Their god Allah has to have THEM do his dirty work because he cannot do it himself.

It's because of things like 9/11, and their cries for death to anyone who cartoons or caricatures their so-called "prophet" Mohammed, that we don't like them.

The same argument applies.

"Let there be no compulsion in religion" says Allah. The only time we are allowed to kill is when someone attacks us/innocent peopel PHYSICALLY with no valid reason.

9/11 killed innocent civilians, and the whole Muhammad cartoons were just over the top. How can we Muslims explain it? We give evidence from the Qur'an, and we repeat what we have to say over and over again.

You are the type of people mentioned in the Qur'an when it says: "These are the people Allah has set a seal upon their hearts". It is pointless arguing with the ignorant.

Let's end this with this Qur'an verse:

And do not follow what you have no knowledge of.
Truly, the hearing, the sight and the heart - all will be questioned of this.

[Al Quran, 17:36]

Islam, on the other hand, DOES teach Muslims to take over the world and fight the infidels until they are all either dead or converted to Islam. Their god Allah has to have THEM do his dirty work because he cannot do it himself.

Once AGAIN, I say: Muslims are not allowed to kill UNLESS someone attacks us or innocent people without a valid reason and without us attacking first.

Do us all a favor, go to some anti-Islamic forum and stay in your hole.

Does the term "9/11" ring a bell?

It's because of things like 9/11, and their cries for death to anyone who cartoons or caricatures their so-called "prophet" Mohammed, that we don't like them.

We cherish religious freedom, but Islamic radicals utterly abhor it because it goes against THEIR religion.

Do any of these ring a bell?

* 1940s - Terrorist organization Christian Identity is formed on the West Coast of the United States. Followers believe Armageddon will take place as a race war between Aryans, the "pure" people, against Jews, Muslims, and non-whites (including non-white Christians).
* 1969-2001 - over 3000 people are killed in Ireland and the United Kingdom as a result of bombings and other violent acts between the predominently Roman Catholic Irish nationalists on one side, and the predominantly Protestant Unionists and secular British Crown forces on the other. More than 1800 of those killed in "The Troubles" are civilians, many the victims of sectarian attacks.
* 1983 - Posse Comitatus militia member Gordon Kahl kills two Federal marshals in North Dakota. Three others are wounded.
* July 27, 1996 - Christian Identity terrorist Eric Robert Rudolph bombs Centennial Olympic Park. Kills 1, wounds 111.
* January 16, 1997 - Christian Identity terrorist Eric Robert Rudolph bombs a gay nightclub.
* October 2, 2004 - Christian terrorist group kills 44 Hindus, wounds 118 in Northeast India.


I don't know about China and India, but a chief difference between Christianity and Islam is that Christianity does NOT teach Christians to "take over the world" in the name of Jesus Christ - He will do that all by Himself one day, and WE Christians won't need to lift a finger to help Him.

Islam, on the other hand, DOES teach Muslims to take over the world and fight the infidels until they are all either dead or converted to Islam. Their god Allah has to have THEM do his dirty work because he cannot do it himself.


I could go about an talk about how christianity stems from Judaism, where as the Jews has a rich history of their God telling them to kill everything, including women and children. At least Muslims are supposed to spare innocents in times of war. Maybe you need to take a look at your own religion.

Does the term "9/11" ring a bell?
I don't hate black people because some black people kill innocents.

It's because of things like 9/11, and their cries for death to anyone who cartoons or caricatures their so-called "prophet" Mohammed, that we don't like them.
Maybe thats why you don't like them. Me, well I don't like making irrational generalizations and judgments, I like to judge each individual on their own merits, not on what their religion is.

Do any of these ring a bell?
*snip*

Don't forget Oklahoma City. You know the federal building that was bombed by a nazi/christian?



Just thought I'd add to the list ^_^.

The same argument applies.

"Let there be no compulsion in religion" says Allah. The only time we are allowed to kill is when someone attacks us/innocent peopel PHYSICALLY with no valid reason.

9/11 killed innocent civilians, and the whole Muhammad cartoons were just over the top. How can we Muslims explain it? We give evidence from the Qur'an, and we repeat what we have to say over and over again.

You are the type of people mentioned in the Qur'an when it says: "These are the people Allah has set a seal upon their hearts". It is pointless arguing with the ignorant.

Let's end this with this Qur'an verse:

And do not follow what you have no knowledge of.
Truly, the hearing, the sight and the heart - all will be questioned of this.

[Al Quran, 17:36]

Once AGAIN, I say: Muslims are not allowed to kill UNLESS someone attacks us or innocent people without a valid reason and without us attacking first.

Do us all a favor, go to some anti-Islamic forum and stay in your hole.

Do any of these ring a bell?

* 1940s - Terrorist organization Christian Identity is formed on the West Coast of the United States. Followers believe Armageddon will take place as a race war between Aryans, the "pure" people, against Jews, Muslims, and non-whites (including non-white Christians).
* 1969-2001 - over 3000 people are killed in Ireland and the United Kingdom as a result of bombings and other violent acts between the predominently Roman Catholic Irish nationalists on one side, and the predominantly Protestant Unionists and secular British Crown forces on the other. More than 1800 of those killed in "The Troubles" are civilians, many the victims of sectarian attacks.
* 1983 - Posse Comitatus militia member Gordon Kahl kills two Federal marshals in North Dakota. Three others are wounded.
* July 27, 1996 - Christian Identity terrorist Eric Robert Rudolph bombs Centennial Olympic Park. Kills 1, wounds 111.
* January 16, 1997 - Christian Identity terrorist Eric Robert Rudolph bombs a gay nightclub.
* October 2, 2004 - Christian terrorist group kills 44 Hindus, wounds 118 in Northeast India.





I could go about an talk about how christianity stems from Judaism, where as the Jews has a rich history of their God telling them to kill everything, including women and children. At least Muslims are supposed to spare innocents in times of war. Maybe you need to take a look at your own religion.

The problem with your argument is that your definition of "attacking Muslims" includes SPEAKING CRITICALLY OF ISLAM, MUSLIMS, MOHAMMED, OR ALLAH. You can't stand to hear your prophet criticized, spoken of negatively, or cartooned, whereas OUR Prophet was beaten, spit on, cursed, lied about, and nailed to a tree, but you don't see me going around wanting to kill anybody over it.

And there may have been some who call themselves "Christians" who perform some of the same things, and I never said it was OK for THEM to act that way either.

In my opinion, those who call themselves "Christians" and, at the same time, call for the death of those who do not wish to convert to Christianity, are NOT really Christians, even if they (or the news media, for the purpose of making ALL Christians look bad) say they ARE.

I do not support that sort of behavior (i.e. killing people over religious dissent) from anybody, whether Christian, Muslim, or otherwise.

I fear Muslims for the same reason I fear Christians. They both seem willing to kill or die for a bunch of silly fairytales they only half-believe anyway.

The problem with your argument is that your definition of "attacking Muslims" includes SPEAKING CRITICALLY OF ISLAM, MUSLIMS, MOHAMMED, OR ALLAH. You can't stand to hear your prophet criticized, spoken of negatively, or cartooned, whereas OUR Prophet was beaten, spit on, cursed, lied about, and nailed to a tree, but you don't see me going around wanting to kill anybody over it.
Are you trying to dictate to them what they think?

In my opinion, those who call themselves "Christians" and, at the same time, call for the death of those who do not wish to convert to Christianity, are NOT really Christians, even if they (or the news media, for the purpose of making ALL Christians look bad) say they ARE.

So when Christians are violent they're not really Christian, but when Muslims are violent, they're the true representation of Islam, never mind all the non-violent ones.

In my opinion, those who call themselves "Christians" and, at the same time, call for the death of those who do not wish to convert to Christianity, are NOT really Christians, even if they (or the news media, for the purpose of making ALL Christians look bad) say they ARE.

I do not support that sort of behavior (i.e. killing people over religious dissent) from anybody, whether Christian, Muslim, or otherwise.

But yet, you try to dismiss the fact that CHRISTANS pull the same crap. it does not matter if YOU think they are "true" chrisitans or not they follow their version of christianity, and it is no more true of false than yours. Fanatics of any religion will twist and spin what ever verses they can to get the justification and control they aim for.

Fanatics are the problem, not all followers of a religion believe the same.

or do you think Pat Robertson was right, and it was the way the USA treats homosexuals, women, and wiccians as the reason for 9/11, and had we just put women back in the kitchen, homosexuals back in the closet, and wiccans burning at the stake we would have never suffered on that day?

The problem with your argument is that your definition of "attacking Muslims" includes SPEAKING CRITICALLY OF ISLAM, MUSLIMS, MOHAMMED, OR ALLAH. You can't stand to hear your prophet criticized, spoken of negatively, or cartooned, whereas OUR Prophet was beaten, spit on, cursed, lied about, and nailed to a tree, but you don't see me going around wanting to kill anybody over it.

And there may have been some who call themselves "Christians" who perform some of the same things, and I never said it was OK for THEM to act that way either.

In my opinion, those who call themselves "Christians" and, at the same time, call for the death of those who do not wish to convert to Christianity, are NOT really Christians, even if they (or the news media, for the purpose of making ALL Christians look bad) say they ARE.

I do not support that sort of behavior (i.e. killing people over religious dissent) from anybody, whether Christian, Muslim, or otherwise.

Do you read your own arguments?

Because, if you do, don't you see anything just a little inconsistent about asserting that those Muslims who go around killing people over stupid shit are representative of their religion (which forbids doing so), whereas those Christians who go around killing people over stupid shit are absolutely NOT representative of their religion (which also forbids doing so)? Wouldn't it seem just a wee itty bit more sensible to conclude that, while both faiths attract some idiots and psychopaths, most members of both faiths are ordinary human beings with no particular desire to blow anyone up?

*Grabs a sword an prepares for a new Crusade*

Islamophobia persists because:

1) People like having a scapegoat.
2) It's easy to hate and fear people of different cultures and religions.
3) The mass media would have us believe Terrorism is the world's biggest problem.
4) Hating Jews is no longer PC. And we have to have a scapegoat to persecute based on ethnicity and religion (see 1) and 2)).

It would seem that islamophobia is increasingly getting higher by the day. My question is, why? Why is it that so many people are afraid of Muslims?
I'm just throwing this out there... but maybe terrorism?

The fear is not of Muslims themselves, but of Terrorism, and not being able to see your death coming before it happens in some freak attack on a bus.

Muslims are good people. But there are many of them who aren't and both physically and emotionally harm other human beings. Yes, there are Christians who do just the same, but the problem is that peaceful Muslims don't do much to distinguish themselves from the extremist Muslims. They just say the opposite of what those hardliner extremists fostered and cultivated by hardline Muslim nations in the Middle East say. They worship the religion of the same name, in the same sects, perhaps even in the same mosques.

The wise thing to do would be to form a new sect explicit to peace. Otherwise, those who are peaceful Muslims may convey a message of tolerance for extremists, especially to the Christian world with their multitude of churches to distinguish between different beliefs and interpretations. There is no signifier with Muslims, and it is a scary thing for the common man, and likely a scary thing for those Muslims who work for peace, because without those signals, the world is cornered into feeling uncertainty.

I'm just throwing this out there... but maybe terrorism?

Nah. I think my hypothesis is more correct.

The fear is not of Muslims themselves

Oh, it is. What, you think Islamophobia is just something we make up? No such thing as discrimination, bigotry, xenophobia? Please.

the problem is that peaceful Muslims don't do much to distinguish themselves from the extremist Muslims. They just say the opposite of what those hardliner extremists fostered and cultivated by hardline Muslim nations in the Middle East say. They worship the religion of the same name, in the same sects, perhaps even in the same mosques.

You think people should change their way of life, simply on the basis that bigots will mistake them for terrorists?

Reality check buddy - the problem here is not with Muslims DARING to not look DISTINGUISHABLE from one another, it is with ASSHOLES who assume that Muslim = terrorist.

Period.

Otherwise, those who are peaceful Muslims may convey a message of tolerance for extremists, especially to the Christian world with their multitude of churches to distinguish between different beliefs and interpretations.

Nonsense. The "message of tolerance for extremists" is nothing more than your own interpretation. They're not saying, but that's what you're hearing. Your problem. Get a hearing-aid.

Nobody else has the numbers to take over the world. islam does.

zomg fearmongering

It would seem that islamophobia is increasingly getting higher by the day. My question is, why? Why is it that so many people are afraid of Muslims? I have surrounded myself by many things Islam, including music, movie, literature, etc... After doing so, I seem to like Muslims more so than I like many of my fellow Christians.

While I don't like arabic/muslim culture more than european culture - and I think it is because I'm european - I'm not afraid of islam. I'm afraid of ANY fundamentalist deviancy of ANY religion, and there are plenty of examples thereof in christianity, islam, hinduism, buddhism, shinto, whatever. On the other side, I have no problem with islam as a perfectly normal religion - that is, I cannot understand the so-called "spirituality" at all, but if someone else finds it important, well, he is free to pursue his own "spiritual" needs in the normal bounds of law: why should I care?

I was intrigued that someone is making such a big deal about Muslims living in Europe. Are Europeans actually starting to turn as Islamophobic as many Americans?

Sadly, yes. A lot of idiots, hate-breeders, shameless exploiters of xenophoby and generally fascists are. Examples in Italy:
Alessandra Mussolini (grandaughter of Benito, fascist)
Umberto Bossi and the whole Lega Nord (right-wing, xenophobic party advocating independence of northern Italy)
His Aryan Holiness Pope Natzinger (in very smart ways)
Gianfranco Fini and his post-fascist Alleanza Nazionale (somewhat LePen-like)

Mind you, they're so shameless that AN, the post-fascist party, is now posing as the defender of JEWISH people against the "hordes" of islam... righty-ho, while in the same party they managed to elect people who were part of the fascist militia in the Repubblica Sociale Italiana - Mussolini's puppet state - and took part in the Holocaust by arresting jews and giving them to the nazis...

Nobody else has the numbers to take over the world. islam does.
You do realise there are twice as many Christians as Muslims and approximately the same numbers of agnostic/atheists and Hindus as Muslims?

I think the right-wing conservative Americans and their cult of personality flag waving 'Christianity' are far more dangerous than the tiny radical islamists, they certainly are responsible for more innocent deaths.

The wise thing to do would be to form a new sect explicit to peace.

I see your point, but islam isn't so gerachically organised as christianity. There isn't a single pope-like figure, or bishops, or the like. So, creating a new sect isn't possible.
Plus, creating a new sect inside islam might lead to more sectarian divides in the muslim world - and, seeing the problems that already exist between sunnis and shiites, I think that this is the least thing the whole world needs, don't you think so?

Don't need one.
Are you BAWAA? You share his inability to see an inch in front of his face.

I see your point, but islam isn't so gerachically organised as christianity. There isn't a single pope-like figure, or bishops, or the like. So, creating a new sect isn't possible.
Plus, creating a new sect inside islam might lead to more sectarian divides in the muslim world - and, seeing the problems that already exist between sunnis and shiites, I think that this is the least thing the whole world needs, don't you think so?
True, though personally I wouldn't see it as a bad thing to pursue, even if it does lead to more sectarian divides, as it would make a stand against it, loud and clear, in the Middle East and abroad. But either their religious leadership needs to do an about-face, or there really does need to be a separation.

Oh, it is. What, you think Islamophobia is just something we make up? No such thing as discrimination, bigotry, xenophobia? Please.
Please, yourself. Islamophobia is the manifestation of a fear. It's not mere xenophobia - though it does play a large part in it. I don't know much about Ukrainians, and their society is fairly different from ours, but that doesn't mean right off the bat I hate Ukrainians. Islamophobia is the byproduct of terrorism, compounded by history. The Muslims conquered us a thousand years ago and Europe is still fairly iffy about it. Terrorism's main goal is to instill fear. Who do people end of fearing? Not terrorists but Muslims because these Islamic terrorists are killing directly in the name of their god.

You think people should change their way of life, simply on the basis that bigots will mistake them for terrorists?
Did Germany still use the Swastika as their flag after 1945? Does Russia still bear the name 'Soviet'?

Reality check buddy - the problem here is not with Muslims DARING to not look DISTINGUISHABLE from one another, it is with ASSHOLES who assume that Muslim = terrorist.
Sorry if I think that your religion should reflect your values - and that includes condemning and I dare say it tossing the extremists out on their asses! Don't let them claim to be Sunni or Shi'ite if their interpretations are so radically different. Reject them, shun them, refuse them, declare them not their own. I would expect the same should Catholicism branch out suddenly to form a violent extremist wing, as I'm sure you would from your own religious leadership. You'd think, How dare they?! They are not one of us! But here's the kicker - none of their religious leadership does it.

Nonsense. The "message of tolerance for extremists" is nothing more than your own interpretation. They're not saying, but that's what you're hearing. Your problem. Get a hearing-aid.
Didn't you get it? That was my point! People will take it that way. And it is becoming a problem for Muslims.

And in case you didn't notice, I never said I am Islamophobic. I was describing public reaction from a Western perspective. Don't be so on the attack - if you just posted this topic to tear into people, honestly, find another way to waste your and my time, because I posted to debate, not to attack.

Please, yourself. Islamophobia is the manifestation of a fear. It's not mere xenophobia - though it does play a large part in it. I don't know much about Ukrainians, and their society is fairly different from ours, but that doesn't mean right off the bat I hate Ukrainians. Islamophobia is the byproduct of terrorism, compounded by history. The Muslims conquered us a thousand years ago and Europe is still fairly iffy about it. Terrorism's main goal is to instill fear. Who do people end of fearing? Not terrorists but Muslims because these Islamic terrorists are killing directly in the name of their god.

Yes, Islamaphobia is an irrational fear.

Kinda like xenophobia and racism in general.

So which is the problem then - the object of an irrational fear, or the one who is an irrational coward?

Did Germany still use the Swastika as their flag after 1945? Does Russia still bear the name 'Soviet'?

Bad comparisons. Germany was a State, and the swastika was part of their state apparatus. Once the nazi State was demolished, it was they who also insisted on eradication of the symbols and apparati of the old state.

Same with "Soviet." It wasn't some part of being Russian, it was a name for the state created out of all those member-state of the Soviet Union. That state fell. As a result its former constituents don't recognize themselves as the old state. Kind of like how South Carolina is not a part of the Confederate States of America.

You're talking about people, not states. You want people to change their way of life, so as not to make things too confusing for poor bigots. Fuck that.

Sorry if I think that your religion should reflect your values - and that includes condemning and I dare say it TOSSING THE EXTREMISTS OUT ON THEIR ASSES.

Yeah, maybe they're afraid of having their families terrorized. You're going on about how Europe's afraid since Islamic empires invaded a thousand years ago. These people live much, much closer to terrorism than you do.

It isn't, furthermore, their job to "condemn" something just because you have the irrational belief that lack of condemnation = support.

I haven't seen you condemn rape lately. YOU RAPIST!

as I'm sure you would from your own religious leadership. You'd think, How dare they?! They are not one of us! But here's the kicker - none of their religious leadership does it.

None? You're sure about that, eh?

And I don't have any religious leadership other than my own mind.

Didn't you get it? That was my point! People will take it that way.

So what? and men WILL rape women.

The problem is with people "taking it that way." It is with rapists as well. What you are doing is effectively blaming the victim.

And in case you didn't notice, I never said I am Islamophobic.

Indeed, but you seem to defend Islamophobia and rationalize bigotry.

Sure. There was a quote in the paper yesterday from a muslim who says Westerners should be submissive to muslims. Case closed.

And here I thought Mel Gibson and Russell Crowe were the only assholes from Australia.

I don't like any crazy right wing religious faction.

That is to say I have no problem with moderate tolerant people; regardless of their creed, colour, ect.

Muslim extreemists just seem to go out of thir way to draw attention to themselvs and as a reault they get the most rectionaty responses.

I don't like any crazy right wing religious faction.

That is to say I have no problem with moderate tolerant people; regardless of their creed, colour, ect.

Muslim extreemists just seem to go out of thir way to draw attention to themselvs and as a reault they get the most rectionaty responses.

They also want everyone else to think they are the primary representatives of Islam as a whole. Attention whores who are so far succeeding.

Then again, America has an addiction to scapegoat throughout history. First it was the Irish and Catholics, then the Germans, then the Japanese and the Germans, then Communists, and now it's Muslims. As long as someone is providing an Other that society as a whole is willing to demonize and persecute, it'll never stop.

Well these (http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,2000983,00.html) figures might go some way towards explaining the trend towards Islamophobia in the UK. I suspect the responses are exaggerated by youthful bluster but they're still worrying.

Nevertheless, this is no excuse for blanket discrimination against Muslims; everyone deserves to be judged according to their own individual actions rather than by group affiliations.

Are you BAWAA? You share his inability to see an inch in front of his face.
I miss him. He made any economics thread entertaining.

Sorry if I think that your religion should reflect your values - and that includes condemning and I dare say it tossing the extremists out on their asses! Don't let them claim to be Sunni or Shi'ite if their interpretations are so radically different. Reject them, shun them, refuse them, declare them not their own. I would expect the same should Catholicism branch out suddenly to form a violent extremist wing, as I'm sure you would from your own religious leadership. You'd think, How dare they?! They are not one of us! But here's the kicker - none of their religious leadership does it.



This is entirely false. Lots and lots and lots of Muslim imams and community leaders have been very public about opposing terrorism. Strangely enough, though, your local news station probably doesn't see "Tonight At 10: Local Muslim Is Nice Guy, Doesn't Kill People" as a real attention-grabbing story.

Of course, there is no earthly reason why Muslims should have to prove their non-psychopathy to you. Normal people, when interacting with others, proceed from the default assumption that they are not lunatics. I do not expect every Christian I meet to offer me reassurances that they think Fred Phelps is a dickhead. I assume by default that they, like all other rational people, believe this, unless they give me reason to think otherwise. I don't ask every man I meet to state, for the record, that he has no intention of raping me, nor do I ask every white person I meet for reassurances that they're not planning on lynching black people any time soon. I seriously doubt you'd think it necessary for white Christian males to form a special club called "People Who Think Picketing Funerals Is Disgusting, Are Not Rapists, And Consider Black People A-Okay." So why should you expect Muslims to do such a thing for your benefit?

Well these (http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,2000983,00.html) figures might go some way towards explaining the trend towards Islamophobia in the UK. I suspect the responses are exaggerated by youthful bluster but they're still worrying.

Nevertheless, this is no excuse for blanket discrimination against Muslims; everyone deserves to be judged according to their own individual actions rather than by group affiliations.

That poll just goes to show how easily manipulated disaffected youth are in general. The same pliable mindset that makes Pop/American Idol and Big Brother such disgusting and unrealistic hits is being manipulated again, only this time towards a twisted religious end.

The only problem I have with the muslim community overall is they're breeding too often. Not that I think that they, specifically, shouldn't breed or that we're getting overrun (a la Ny Nordland) but there are already too many fucking humans on earth as it is - we need to stop for a bit.

The only problem I have with the muslim community overall is they're breeding too often. Not that I think that they, specifically, shouldn't breed or that we're getting overrun (a la Ny Nordland) but there are already too many fucking humans on earth as it is - we need to stop for a bit.

No we need MORE people. Who else is going to pay for SS?

No we need MORE people.
Certainly. Soilent Green doesn't produce itself, y'know.

It would seem that islamophobia is increasingly getting higher by the day. My question is, why? Why is it that so many people are afraid of Muslims? I have surrounded myself by many things Islam, including music, movie, literature, etc... After doing so, I seem to like Muslims more so than I like many of my fellow Christians.

Anyways, I saw this article (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467834546&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) on the JPOST website like two days ago, and I was intrigued that someone is making such a big deal about Muslims living in Europe. Are Europeans actually starting to turn as Islamophobic as many Americans?

Its simple really. Most in the west don't understand Islam and people fear what they don't understand or what is different. On top of that recent terrorist attacks have lead many to think Islam= terrorism and Muslim=terrorist when this is obviously not the case.

The problem with your argument is that your definition of "attacking Muslims" includes SPEAKING CRITICALLY OF ISLAM, MUSLIMS, MOHAMMED, OR ALLAH. You can't stand to hear your prophet criticized, spoken of negatively, or cartooned, whereas OUR Prophet was beaten, spit on, cursed, lied about, and nailed to a tree, but you don't see me going around wanting to kill anybody over it.

It is very obvious to me that you have never in your life read the Qur'an. Should you, you will see that it clearly states, not "attack", but "kill" (as in, kill those that kill innocents and you).

The only problem I have with the muslim community overall is they're breeding too often. Not that I think that they, specifically, shouldn't breed or that we're getting overrun (a la Ny Nordland) but there are already too many fucking humans on earth as it is - we need to stop for a bit.

Non-Muslims breed more than Muslims.

Its simple really. Most in the west don't understand Islam and people fear what they don't understand or what is different. On top of that recent terrorist attacks have lead many to think Islam= terrorism and Muslim=terrorist when this is obviously not the case.
I don't that's generally the case; people tend to fear things they understand already much more than they do differences. It's the fact that we have been made to spot familiar traits in Islam, those in other forms of conservative religion that we have seen before, that raises concerns.

Ignorance, as they say, is Bliss. The "western" world has had this ignorance stripped from it over the past few years and been forced to face the reality of Islam as a traditional way of life, with ideals and standards of ethics of its own, rather than simply a property of the people they engaged with in their everyday environment. This has made them uncomfortable, just as Christianity has in its own right.

It would seem that islamophobia is increasingly getting higher by the day. My question is, why? Why is it that so many people are afraid of Muslims? I have surrounded myself by many things Islam, including music, movie, literature, etc... After doing so, I seem to like Muslims more so than I like many of my fellow Christians.

Anyways, I saw this article (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467834546&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) on the JPOST website like two days ago, and I was intrigued that someone is making such a big deal about Muslims living in Europe. Are Europeans actually starting to turn as Islamophobic as many Americans?

Yeah, even my dad, who I consider an intelligent person.

Non-Muslims breed more than Muslims.

Just because there are more of them, but percentage-wise they're giving birth at a much higher rate than most other groups of people.

And again, I wish non-muslims would stop for a bit as well.

Islamophobia is silly.

Islamophobia is silly.

Islamaphobia is Xenophobia (or illogical fear of the unknown). Many do not know Islam, and accept what they hear from their bigoted sources (I.E. the media). "Why would the media hate Muslims?" you might ask.

Well, good ol' Dr. Zakir Naik puts it well. He says (paraphrasing) that they hate Islam because, if Islam spreads and makes new governments, the Zalimun (evil-doers in Arabic) will have to cease doing their evil.

I don’t dislike/fear Muslims because of the terrorism factor, for example I would fear an IRA terrorist much more than a member of al-ki-eda. The thing I hate is that they seem to want to force their ways onto us and will not change. I think that if they want to live in OUR country they should change themselves to fit in, not try and change us. If they wont change, then go back to the war-torn Middle East where they came from. Also it’s the fact that they are (or the government thinks they are) offended by everything. Certain traditions like Saint Georges Day and even Christmas have been changed, censored or simply not done in order to keep the Muslims happy, and piss off a hell of a lot more Normal British People

I don’t dislike/fear Muslims because of the terrorism factor, for example I would fear an IRA terrorist much more than a member of al-ki-eda. The thing I hate is that they seem to want to force their ways onto us and will not change. I think that if they want to live in OUR country they should change themselves to fit in, not try and change us. If they wont change, then go back to the war-torn Middle East where they came from. Also it’s the fact that they are (or the government thinks they are) offended by everything. Certain traditions like Saint Georges Day and even Christmas have been changed, censored or simply not done in order to keep the Muslims happy, and piss off a hell of a lot more Normal British People

What NorthNorthumberland means is they should fuck of to were there religion came from not the people's place of birth.
I totally agree with you.

What NorthNorthumberland means is they should fuck of to were there religion came from not the people's place of birth.
I totally agree with you.
If you've got a problem with multiculturalism within the community, maybe society isn't for you. Might I suggest hermitage?

just one thing that i'd like to ask, cos i didn't see it addressed.


in regards to the christian terriorists listed earlier, how many did it on behalf of their faith, versus how many muslim terrorists do it on behalf of their faith?

Well, good ol' Dr. Zakir Naik puts it well. He says (paraphrasing) that they hate Islam because, if Islam spreads and makes new governments, the Zalimun (evil-doers in Arabic) will have to cease doing their evil.

And then we can do non-evil things like criminalising homosexuality and repressing women. God bless Islam.

just one thing that i'd like to ask, cos i didn't see it addressed.


in regards to the christian terriorists listed earlier, how many did it on behalf of their faith, versus how many muslim terrorists do it on behalf of their faith?

I know for a fact that the Ireland/Northern Ireland brawl is because the two countries are of different sects of Christianity.

Anyways, this is still skirting what I have said earlier: show me from the Qur'an (in context and CORRECT TRANSLATIONS (I'd suggest Abdullah Yusuf Ali)) where Muslims are commanded to kill innocent people.

In the Qur'an, Muslims are ordered to strike back ONLY when they/innocent people are attacked physically and/or KILLED. But, we are ordered to NOT STRIKE those who are innocent, and we are ordered to cease attack once the enemy gives up, for "Allah loves not the transgressors".

just one thing that i'd like to ask, cos i didn't see it addressed.


in regards to the christian terriorists listed earlier, how many did it on behalf of their faith, versus how many muslim terrorists do it on behalf of their faith?
Both are ways of life. A Christian tries to live the life of Christ, a Muslim lives a life devoted to service to Allah.

Given the sufficient distortion, any action can be made "on behalf of" these ideas. I don't doubt that, given the chance, any of these Christian Terrorists to which you refer would happily pass the buck for their misdeeds at the feet of that label, just as the extremist Islamists do for theirs.

And then we can do non-evil things like criminalising homosexuality and repressing women. God bless Islam.

Islam criminalizes homosexuality? Please show me where in the Qur'an or Hadith. Islam may consider homosexuality a sin, but we are ordered not to force homosexuals to be straight and/or abuse them in any way because they are homosexual.

And please don't get me started on the women issue.

Look here: http://www.answering-christianity.com/woman.htm

Many seem to think that the Islamic Extremists follow the Qur'an, but they DON'T.

Al-Qaeda has a large following in the Middle East, particularly in rural areas. Why? Because the people who follow Al-Qaeda are ILLITERATE. They can't read the Qur'an and/or Hadith and see that Al-Qaeda is wrong. Bin Laden and his gang has capitalized on this and interpreted the Qur'an according to their political agenda. They aren't challenged by their followers because they can't be challenged by their followers since their followers can't read.

Islam criminalizes homosexuality? Please show me where in the Qur'an or Hadith. Islam may consider homosexuality a sin, but we are ordered not to force homosexuals to be straight and/or abuse them in any way because they are homosexual.

And please don't get me started on the women issue.

Look here: http://www.answering-christianity.com/woman.htm

Firstly- i think we've had a misunderstanding. You talked about setting up more Islamic governments. Im no expert on the Qu'ran and the theology of the matter, but as a result of the direction you led the debate I was talking about previous Islamic government's actions in practice. In practice Islam-based governments have a deplorable record with regards to actions taken against homosexuals.

Secondly- Im not a Christian either, so to be honest, the fact that another religion I don't believe in also has a well documented case to answer with regards to women is irrelevant. I do hope you haven't got the impression I'm just being anti-Islam. Far from it. Given how much of the Bible was stolen from contemporary cults, particularly Mithras, the Qu'ran depiction of Isa's life sounds far more plausible. I fully accept that Christian theological belief is often equally questionable. One of the reasons i strongly believe in Church-state separation

I know for a fact that the Ireland/Northern Ireland brawl is because the two countries are of different sects of Christianity.
yah. sure, but i'm talking about the american ones. I don't think timmothy mcveigh (nor the SD federal marshall shooting) was related to christianity. I'm not saying that there aren't christian extremists who aren't terrorists (i.e. the IRA) what i'm saying is that there are more terrorists who are muslim extremists and do terrorism on behalf of their religion.

Anyways, this is still skirting what I have said earlier: show me from the Qur'an (in context and CORRECT TRANSLATIONS (I'd suggest Abdullah Yusuf Ali)) where Muslims are commanded to kill innocent people.
In the Qur'an, Muslims are ordered to strike back ONLY when they/innocent people are attacked physically and/or KILLED.
ok. so they are ordered to strike back only when they/innocent ppl are being attacked. How does that explain 9/11, or any number of other terrorist attacks recently? I never put doubt in what the Qur'an says.

But, we are ordered to NOT STRIKE those who are innocent, and we are ordered to cease attack once the enemy gives up, for "Allah loves not the transgressors".
so in muslims eyes, Americans driving down a street in Baghdad aren't innocent, and that's why they can use IEDs to attack them?

Given the sufficient distortion, any action can be made "on behalf of" these ideas. ...

sure it can. but how many more muslims use their actions "on behalf of" their ideas versus how many christians do.

You ARE.
*chuckle*

Sure. There was a quote in the paper yesterday from a muslim who says Westerners should be submissive to muslims. Case closed.
ROFL ROFL

Even if I couldn't, it doesn't matter. 9/11, Bali x2, London x2, Cologne, Madrid, India xSeveral, Iraq xThousands. islam is bad.
No, terrorists are bad.

Christianity is too fragmented. But China and India will try.
India won't try. China might. Islam is fragmented too, ever heard of Sunni and Shia? They will do their best to wipe each other out before they take over anywhere else. Christians have not behaved like that since the 17th century.

The same argument applies.

"Let there be no compulsion in religion" says Allah. The only time we are allowed to kill is when someone attacks us/innocent peopel PHYSICALLY with no valid reason.

A question I was wondering about this: why did Mohammed hear Allah say this, but go on to wage twenty-six military campaigns in his lifetime?

Many seem to think that the Islamic Extremists follow the Qur'an, but they DON'T.
Many who? I know i don't. I subscribe to the believe that the islamic extremists have warped the muslim faith.

Al-Qaeda has a large following in the Middle East, particularly in rural areas. Why? Because the people who follow Al-Qaeda are ILLITERATE. They can't read the Qur'an and/or Hadith and see that Al-Qaeda is wrong. Bin Laden and his gang has capitalized on this and interpreted the Qur'an according to their political agenda. They aren't challenged by their followers because they can't be challenged by their followers since their followers can't read.
so how does that explain the literate peoples still following the hatred tought in that form of islam? How does that explain the current leaderships of islam in different countries not outwardly and strongly condemning al-qaeda?

Al-Qaeda has a large following in the Middle East, particularly in rural areas. Why? Because the people who follow Al-Qaeda are ILLITERATE. They can't read the Qur'an and/or Hadith and see that Al-Qaeda is wrong. Bin Laden and his gang has capitalized on this and interpreted the Qur'an according to their political agenda. They aren't challenged by their followers because they can't be challenged by their followers since their followers can't read.

That explains why both OBL and Zawahiri are educated and Zawahiri is a doctor to boot, not to mention the fact that 9/11, 7/7 and other terrorist attacks elsewhere being carried out by educated muslims. That also explains why the fathers of the modern salafi movement - Maududi, Qutb et al were and still are venerated ulema.

Yes, Islamaphobia is an irrational fear.

Kinda like xenophobia and racism in general.

So which is the problem then - the object of an irrational fear, or the one who is an irrational coward?



Bad comparisons. Germany was a State, and the swastika was part of their state apparatus. Once the nazi State was demolished, it was they who also insisted on eradication of the symbols and apparati of the old state.

Same with "Soviet." It wasn't some part of being Russian, it was a name for the state created out of all those member-state of the Soviet Union. That state fell. As a result its former constituents don't recognize themselves as the old state. Kind of like how South Carolina is not a part of the Confederate States of America.

You're talking about people, not states. You want people to change their way of life, so as not to make things too confusing for poor bigots. Fuck that.



Yeah, maybe they're afraid of having their families terrorized. You're going on about how Europe's afraid since Islamic empires invaded a thousand years ago. These people live much, much closer to terrorism than you do.

It isn't, furthermore, their job to "condemn" something just because you have the irrational belief that lack of condemnation = support.

I haven't seen you condemn rape lately. YOU RAPIST!



None? You're sure about that, eh?

And I don't have any religious leadership other than my own mind.



So what? and men WILL rape women.

The problem is with people "taking it that way." It is with rapists as well. What you are doing is effectively blaming the victim.



Indeed, but you seem to defend Islamophobia and rationalize bigotry.
Oh, for crying out loud. If you were here right now, I'd smack you back to the pre-Cambrian period.

This thread asked why. You cannot answer why Islamophobia is taking off simply by answering, "because people are bigots!" Well, why are people bigots? What are the roots of the issue? Are there historical connections? What about human psychology?

I explored the issue, I didn't defend either side, and you, sir, ma'am, whatever you are, need to back off. Sorry I didn't say exactly what you wanted me to say, but I'm not attacking other people's ideas here, I'm not justifying anything, I am simply explaining and sharing my perceptions of the situation and my interpretation. Feel free to debunk that, but take those freakin claws out, would you? Highly immature and inappropriate.

A question I was wondering about this: why did Mohammed hear Allah say this, but go on to wage twenty-six military campaigns in his lifetime?

Well, read the rest of the verse to know.

That explains why both OBL and Zawahiri are educated and Zawahiri is a doctor to boot, not to mention the fact that 9/11, 7/7 and other terrorist attacks elsewhere being carried out by educated muslims. That also explains why the fathers of the modern salafi movement - Maududi, Qutb et al were and still are venerated ulema.

That's why I said: "...interpreted the Qur'an to according to their political agenda".

so how does that explain the literate peoples still following the hatred tought in that form of islam? How does that explain the current leaderships of islam in different countries not outwardly and strongly condemning al-qaeda?

It's governments. All governments are corrupt.

Non-Muslims breed more than Muslims.


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(children born/woman)

Date of Information
1
Niger 7.46 2006 est.
2
Mali 7.42 2006 est.
3
Somalia 6.76 2006 est.
4
Uganda 6.71 2006 est.
5
Afghanistan 6.69 2006 est.
6
Yemen 6.58 2006 est.
7
Burundi 6.55 2006 est.
8
Burkina Faso 6.47 2006 est.
9
Congo, Democratic Republic of the 6.45 2006 est.
10
Angola 6.35 2006 est.
11
Chad 6.25 2006 est.
12
Sierra Leone 6.08 2006 est.
13
Congo, Republic of the 6.07 2006 est.
14
Liberia 6.02 2006 est.
15
Malawi 5.92 2006 est.
16
Mauritania 5.86 2006 est.
17
Guinea 5.79 2006 est.
18
Mayotte 5.79 2006 est.
19
Gaza Strip 5.78 2006 est.
20
Oman 5.77 2006 est.
21
Madagascar 5.62 2006 est.
22
Sao Tome and Principe 5.62 2006 est.
23
Nigeria 5.49 2006 est.
24
Rwanda 5.43 2006 est.
25
Zambia 5.39 2006 est.
26
Djibouti 5.31 2006 est.
27
Gambia, The 5.30 2006 est.
28
Ethiopia 5.22 2006 est.
29
Benin 5.20 2006 est.
30
Eritrea 5.08 2006 est.
31
Comoros 5.03 2006 est.
32
Tanzania 4.97 2006 est.
33
Togo 4.96 2006 est.
34
Haiti 4.94 2006 est.
35
Kenya 4.91 2006 est.
36
Maldives 4.90 2006 est.
37
Guinea-Bissau 4.86 2006 est.
38
Bhutan 4.74 2006 est.
39
Gabon 4.74 2006 est.
40
Sudan 4.72 2006 est.
41
Laos 4.68 2006 est.
42
Mozambique 4.62 2006 est.
43
Equatorial Guinea 4.55 2006 est.
44
Cote d'Ivoire 4.50 2006 est.
45
Central African Republic 4.41 2006 est.
46
Cameroon 4.39 2006 est.
47
Senegal 4.38 2006 est.
48
West Bank 4.28 2006 est.
49
Iraq 4.18 2006 est.
50
Kiribati 4.16 2006 est.
51
Nepal 4.10 2006 est.
52
Pakistan 4.00 2006 est.
53
Saudi Arabia 4.00 2006 est.
54
Tajikistan 4.00 2006 est.
55
Ghana 3.99 2006 est.
56
Solomon Islands 3.91 2006 est.
57
Paraguay 3.89 2006 est.
58
Papua New Guinea 3.88 2006 est.
59
Marshall Islands 3.85 2006 est.
60
Guatemala 3.82 2006 est.
61
Belize 3.60 2006 est.
62
Honduras 3.59 2006 est.
63
East Timor 3.53 2006 est.
64
Swaziland 3.53 2006 est.
65
Syria 3.40 2006 est.
66
Cape Verde 3.38 2006 est.
67
Cambodia 3.37 2006 est.
68
Turkmenistan 3.37 2006 est.
69
Lesotho 3.28 2006 est.
70
Libya 3.28 2006 est.
71
American Samoa 3.16 2006 est.
72
Micronesia, Federated States of 3.16 2006 est.
73
Zimbabwe 3.13 2006 est.
74
El Salvador 3.12 2006 est.
75
Bangladesh 3.11 2006 est.
76
Nauru 3.11 2006 est.
77
Philippines 3.11 2006 est.
78
Namibia 3.06 2006 est.
79
Turks and Caicos Islands 3.05 2006 est.
80
Malaysia 3.04 2006 est.
81
Tonga 3.00 2006 est.
82
Tuvalu 2.98 2006 est.
83
Samoa 2.94 2006 est.
84
Kuwait 2.91 2006 est.
85
Uzbekistan 2.91 2006 est.
86
United Arab Emirates 2.88 2006 est.
87
Bolivia 2.85 2006 est.
88
Dominican Republic 2.83 2006 est.
89
Egypt 2.83 2006 est.
90
Qatar 2.81 2006 est.
91
Botswana 2.79 2006 est.
92
Nicaragua 2.75 2006 est.
93
Fiji 2.73 2006 est.
94
India 2.73 2006 est.
95
Vanuatu 2.70 2006 est.
96
Kyrgyzstan 2.69 2006 est.
97
Ecuador 2.68 2006 est.
98
Morocco 2.68 2006 est.
99
Panama 2.68 2006 est.
100
Jordan 2.63 2006 est.

Source: CIA

Muslims and Africans seems to be the ones who breed most...

ok. so they are ordered to strike back only when they/innocent ppl are being attacked. How does that explain 9/11, or any number of other terrorist attacks recently? I never put doubt in what the Qur'an says.

That's why 9/11 was condemned by Muslims; it wasn't a basis for killing people. On the contrary, Muslims are now allowed to kill their own Muslim brothers because of this.

so in muslims eyes, Americans driving down a street in Baghdad aren't innocent, and that's why they can use IEDs to attack them?

Depends. Did that American (or anybody, regardless of race, nationality, etc.) attack and kill innocent people without being forced to do so?

Source: CIA

Muslims and Africans seems to be the ones who breed most...

How many non-Muslims are there in the world?

I can't even believe that you objected to what I said.

Firstly- i think we've had a misunderstanding. You talked about setting up more Islamic governments. Im no expert on the Qu'ran and the theology of the matter, but as a result of the direction you led the debate I was talking about previous Islamic government's actions in practice. In practice Islam-based governments have a deplorable record with regards to actions taken against homosexuals.

Ok, my fault. Current Islamic governments do stink, yes. I think it's time for new ones that actually follow the Qur'an/Hadith.

Secondly- Im not a Christian either, so to be honest, the fact that another religion I don't believe in also has a well documented case to answer with regards to women is irrelevant. I do hope you haven't got the impression I'm just being anti-Islam. Far from it. Given how much of the Bible was stolen from contemporary cults, particularly Mithras, the Qu'ran depiction of Isa's life sounds far more plausible. I fully accept that Christian theological belief is often equally questionable. One of the reasons i strongly believe in Church-state separation

That's a good thing, but I didn't point to that site to object to Christianity. On that page, it talks about the status of women in Islam.

Multiculturalism 'drives young Muslims to shun British values'
29.01.07

............
Most alarmingly, 13 per cent of young Muslims said they "admired" organisations such as Al Qaeda which are prepared to "fight the West".
...............
While only 17 per cent of over-55s said they would prefer to live under Sharia law, that increased to 37 per cent of those aged 16 to 24.
...............
The poll found that just 19 per cent of Muslims over 55 would prefer to send their children to Islamic state schools. That increased to 37 per cent of those aged 16 to 24.
............
According to the poll, 74 per cent of those aged 16 to 24 prefer Muslim women to wear the veil, compared with only 28 per cent of over 55s.
..........

Link (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23383409-details/A%20+generation+of+outsiders/article.do)

These are significant numbers. Young people wanting veiled women are a huge majority....

How many non-Muslims are there in the world?

I can't even believe that you objected to what I said.

Breeding most means making the most children. And Africans and Muslims are those who are making the most children.

Breeding most means making the most children. And Africans and Muslims are those who are making the most children.

You 2 are comparing different things: birth rate and numbers born.

That's why 9/11 was condemned by Muslims; it wasn't a basis for killing people. On the contrary, Muslims are now allowed to kill their own Muslim brothers because of this.
at the time, they had video of people celebrating the attacks.


Depends. Did that American (or anybody, regardless of race, nationality, etc.) attack and kill innocent people without being forced to do so?

Who are they to determine if the Americans in the vehicle struck aren't innocent? There's an assumption on the attacker (using the IED) that the people in the convoy aren't innocent. or don't care.

What about that sniper, whatever is name is, Juba? Who shot a soldier just standing by a humvee. for all he knows, he was there to help reroute traffic for better traffic flow, or hand out water to that sector... something to help the people of Iraq.



and saying that all governments are corrupt is a big copout on saying that the populace can't think on their own.

I find it hilarious that in these days the phrase "he attended a Muslim private school" equates to "he frequently attends zoöphiles anonimous meetings to expand his social network".

Oh, for crying out loud. If you were here right now, I'd smack you back to the pre-Cambrian period.

That wouldn't really help the strength of your argument.

This thread asked why. You cannot answer why Islamophobia is taking off simply by answering, "because people are bigots!"

Of course you can. Bigots need someone to hate. Used to be the Jews were the easiest target, nowadays it's Muslims.

Well, why are people bigots? What are the roots of the issue? Are there historical connections? What about human psychology?

And you're saying people are bigots because the objects of their hatred are failing in their duty to "distinguish" between the rightful objects of hatred (terrorism) and themselves. Might as well say that the Jews are the cause of Nazi bigotry... they didn't do enough to distinguish between themselves and the economy-controlling moneygrubbers.

The psychology of the issue is another story. Maybe some bigots were abused, physically or psychologically. Maybe they were just raised in an environment where hating people who look or act different is OK to do. Maybe they are ignorant. Maybe they have a disorder. End result is the same though - a bigot is a bigot, and no one is responsible for a bigot's hate but that bigot.

And you're saying...
Don't tell me what I'm saying. You clearly have no idea. You're bent on being right, therefore everyone else is wrong. And you're probably looking at me as a defender of bigots because you're too naive to actually see what I'm saying. Almost all hatred has its roots in something. Be it through social classes, financial success, past and present crime, old wars. You are not born a bigot. You are developed into one by your surroundings. And that was my point, which you looked right past. There are reasons for why people are bigots - whether you see them as legit or illegit, that's your problem - and this thread asked why. I did my best to answer - a lack of distinctiveness, terrorism itself, old hostilities - in general, the answer boils down to fear.

It'd be nice to think that the world was black and white. That people were good from birth, on. Or that people are evil from birth, on. That everything is predetermined. But that's not the case. A bigot isn't born a bigot. They're developed into one. It's through the stories your parents tell you as a kid, the history you learn in the classroom, the way someone treated you in highschool, what the talking heads on TV say, the social hierarchy of your society, the fear of the unknown (for instance, not being able to distinguish between a Muslim Terrorist and your run-of-the-mill Muslim who just wants to live their life) - a bigot is developed, not just born that way, and that is all I am saying.

That wouldn't really help the strength of your argument.
And accusing me of being a defender of Islamophobia and a rationalizer of bigotry does? If you don't want to address bigotry at its root - and work your way from there - then be prepared to deal with bigotry for the rest of human existance. Because assuming that there is no root to it all is precisely why its persisted for so long.

I find it hilarious that in these days the phrase "he attended a Muslim private school" equates to "he frequently attends zoöphiles anonimous meetings to expand his social network".

Actually "he attended a Muslim madrassa" equates to "He trained at an Al-Qaeda terrorist camp and shook Bin Ladin's hands after strapping on the explosive vest" in Bushevik Country.

at the time, they had video of people celebrating the attacks..

Who gives a fuck? To be blunt, after the amount of shafting they've had at US hands, why wouldnt some of them?




Who are they to determine if the Americans in the vehicle struck aren't innocent? There's an assumption on the attacker (using the IED) that the people in the convoy aren't innocent. or don't care. ..

Hang on a second - they're in the Army. They're legitamate targets.


What about that sniper, whatever is name is, Juba? Who shot a soldier just standing by a humvee. for all he knows, he was there to help reroute traffic for better traffic flow, or hand out water to that sector... something to help the people of Iraq...

O for fucks sake...Army=legit target. Whether hes good or not is not the point. Thats why war is a fairly nasty business.

Do you wonder how many of the tens of thousands of dead non-military Iraqis were worth that level of discrimination? Because somebody in the Whitehouse doesnt.




and saying that all governments are corrupt is a big copout on saying that the populace can't think on their own.[/QUOTE]

Don't tell me what I'm saying. You clearly have no idea.

I guess you don't know either.

You're bent on being right, therefore everyone else is wrong. And you're probably looking at me as a defender of bigots because you're too naive to actually see what I'm saying.

Ad hominem.

Almost all hatred has its roots in something. Be it through social classes, financial success, past and present crime, old wars. You are not born a bigot.

I never said one was.

And that was my point, which you looked right past. There are reasons for why people are bigots - whether you see them as legit or illegit, that's your problem - and this thread asked why. I did my best to answer - a lack of distinctiveness, terrorism itself, old hostilities - in general, the answer boils down to fear.

I coulda sworn you said it was mostly because non-terrorist Muslims don't do enough to distinguish themselves from terrorist Muslims.

Because assuming that there is no root to it all is precisely why its persisted for so long.

There is a root. But it is nonetheless the bigot's responsibility for his bigotry, not that of whoever the "root" people are.

I coulda sworn you said it was mostly because non-terrorist Muslims don't do enough to distinguish themselves from terrorist Muslims.
Yes. A lack of distinctiveness. You can't tell. It makes people scared. It no doubt makes many of the peaceful Muslims scared. I said that in my first post.

There is a root. But it is nonetheless the bigot's responsibility for his bigotry, not that of whoever the "root" people are.
Of course it is. I never dumped the blame off them. But that doesn't mean there isn't a reason for it, and some of that reason is in our society - meaning its not just the bigots fault, but societies for creating a place to nurture bigotry. As I said, just look at the news. Those talking heads say enough to bring you. Or how modern Christians think, with their 'branches' of Christianity to broadcast their beliefs, and how that is not reflected in Islamic culture, and how that would make the Christian West feel uncomfortable (rationally or irrationally - your call, but that doesn't make it any less true). Look at Europe, and its old history with Muslims. It no doubt helps bigotry form in Europe as history often does (even 1000 year old history because it is still taught and still leaves the more patriotic people with a grudge) in addition with the terrorist attacks in Spain and the United Kingdom. Some of the things that fuel bigotry can be addressed by society itself, and should be.

Besides, the bigotry and xenophobia your seeing in the West is also a response to the xenophobia of Islamic extremism. It's not like the only bigots are Westerners.

My breaking it down is not defending bigotry or Islamophobia. It's simply looking at it from a logical perspective. There are causes, there is a 'why' to it all, whether or not they're warranted or not, that doesn't make them non-existent, and that doesn't mean they can't be addressed, or examined.

It would seem that islamophobia is increasingly getting higher by the day. My question is, why? Why is it that so many people are afraid of Muslims? I have surrounded myself by many things Islam, including music, movie, literature, etc... After doing so, I seem to like Muslims more so than I like many of my fellow Christians.

Anyways, I saw this article (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467834546&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) on the JPOST website like two days ago, and I was intrigued that someone is making such a big deal about Muslims living in Europe. Are Europeans actually starting to turn as Islamophobic as many Americans?

I fear so. Well, actually, I don't. The sooner the nationalist reaction many now envisage happens the better.

Muslims are the new communists, the boogeymen of our era that are being used to sew fear, nationalism and erode freedom.

at the time, they had video of people celebrating the attacks.

I believe this was found to have been a fabrication. The video in question was that of a festival at a different time.

What about that sniper, whatever is name is, Juba? Who shot a soldier just standing by a humvee.

Mate, he was shooting a soldier of the OCCUPYING FORCES. It doesn't flaming matter if said soldier was helping an Iraqi give birth or kicking a child in the face, he's a LEGITIMATE TARGET for any resistance movement.

Mate, he was shooting a soldier of the OCCUPYING FORCES. It doesn't flaming matter if said soldier was helping an Iraqi give birth or kicking a child in the face, he's a LEGITIMATE TARGET for any resistance movement.

In purely legal terms, and provided one refutes the legitimacy of the UN resolution, you are correct. In moral terms, the above is awful. The individual trooper was not responsible for the declaration of war, and given what the troop was engaged in when he died, it would be difficult to morally justify the casualty.

In purely legal terms, and provided one refutes the legitimacy of the UN resolution, you are correct. In moral terms, the above is awful. The individual trooper was not responsible for the declaration of war, and given what the troop was engaged in when he died, it would be difficult to morally justify the casualty.

Individual troopers are very rarely responsible for the declaration of war, does that mean no one shoot shoot at anyone else in a war because they were not responsible?

Maybe I misunderstood

Individual troopers are very rarely responsible for the declaration of war, does that mean no one shoot shoot at anyone else in a war because they were not responsible?

Maybe I misunderstood

Generally, I thought military forces engaged in combat. However, when militray forces engage in manifestly benign activities, how does one morally justify killing them?

In purely legal terms, and provided one refutes the legitimacy of the UN resolution, you are correct. In moral terms, the above is awful. The individual trooper was not responsible for the declaration of war, and given what the troop was engaged in when he died, it would be difficult to morally justify the casualty.

You are right , but should not the same morals apply to militants not engaged in military activities?

You are right , but should not the same morals apply to militants not engaged in military activities?

Naturally. However, 'Search and destroy" missions in residential areas (Fallujah etc.) have ever been morally reprehensible and counter-productive.

Generally, I thought military forces engaged in combat. However, when militray forces engage in manifestly benign activities, how does one morally justify killing them?

Fairly sure just contributing to an attack on your country makes the enemy combatant free targets in a war zone. A man potentially earlier that day killed a friend of yours in a war zone and may kill another tomarrow but just happens to be standing there today ... in a war zone ... would you not take the shot?

Fairly sure just contributing to an attack on your country makes the enemy combatant free targets in a war zone. A man potentially earlier that day killed a friend of yours in a war zone and may kill another tomarrow but just happens to be standing there today ... in a war zone ... would you not take the shot?

I might wait until he'd finished delivering the child, or walking the old granny across the street at least.

I might wait until he'd finished delivering the child, or walking the old granny across the street at least.
Ok I can understand some active assistance sure ... but I thought we were talking about a situation in which the guy was just standing next to his humvee ... that may be a bit different

I might wait until he'd finished delivering the child, or walking the old granny across the street at least.

War is war. There is no morality to it. Do you really think the enemy is going to care what you are doing? They just want you dead. Sure I would hesitate at shooting at somebody giving assistance..but in the end my own survival mode would kick in. One less person that would try and kill me.