NationStates Jolt Archive

You're obviously ignorant of patients' rights.

I could care less about patients' rights. I was talking about the laws in Islam that give a husband say over what happens to his wife. I follow what Allah wishes for man kind, not laws drawn up by man.

I could care less about patients' rights. I was talking about the laws in Islam that give a husband say over what happens to his wife. I follow what Allah wishes for man kind, not laws drawn up by man.

Yet you are bound by laws drawn up by men. And women.

Deal with it.

If YOU see it as discrimination, do you then believe (as you seem to) that Muslims deserve a different set of laws from the society that they choose to live in?

I'm not saying Muslims should have different laws. What I'm saying is that especially hospitals of all places should be able to accommodate the religious concerns of people. Especially something like this where the husband had requested a female doctor ahead of time. This man doesn't deserve to be jailed, he deserved to get the hospital care he requested.

I could care less about patients' rights. I was talking about the laws in Islam that give a husband say over what happens to his wife. I follow what Allah wishes for man kind, not laws drawn up by man.But there is no such thing as Allah. :confused:

Anyways, why don't you go live in northern Pakistan where they think more like you do? Yo might even be able to get laid by a wholly subservient woman who has no desire to have sex with you but must anyways. :) Maybe you can have sex with a 13-year-old boy until they find you a proper wife. :)

I'm not saying Muslims should have different laws. What I'm saying is that especially hospitals of all places should be able to accommodate the religious concerns of people. Especially something like this where the husband had requested a female doctor ahead of time. This man doesn't deserve to be jailed, he deserved to get the hospital care he requested.

You don't get to impose any rules and regulations regarding a publically funded hospital. If you want a female doctor you'll have to make enough money on yoru own to afford one. If there was no female wh was able, or even felt like working at that time then you're just SOL. ;)

I could care less about patients' rights. I was talking about the laws in Islam that give a husband say over what happens to his wife. I follow what Allah wishes for man kind, not laws drawn up by man.

Given that the patient in the hypothetical scenario under discussion is your wife, the fact that you couldn't care less about her rights would explain why some people in this thread have suggested that you would make an extremely poor husband.

Are you saying he decided to ask that "in secret".. and that his wife was not aware he was going to ask for that?

The hospital will provide a female doctor if staffing permits. If it does not, the patient receives the doctor who is on duty.

it was probably asked weeks before the birth.. and 99.99% his wife was fully aware of the request.
BTW the article says.. Muslims always ask that.

No, the article says no such thing. It says that some Muslims ask it.

I could care less about patients' rights. I was talking about the laws in Islam that give a husband say over what happens to his wife. I follow what Allah wishes for man kind, not laws drawn up by man.
There are many places where Allah's wishes for mankind come into direct conflict with human laws. If you desire to remain out of prison, then the honorable thing for you to do is to choose not to live in those places.

In the United States, it is not legal for you to violate your wife's rights as a patient. If you are not willing to abide by that law, then you should not choose to live in the United States. Many other nations have similar laws. If you are not willing to abide by them then you should not live in those nations.

It's like how you shouldn't take a job as a bartender if your faith prohibits consumption of alcohol. You shouldn't get hired as a bartender and then refuse to do the job because of the conflict between your faith and your "secular" responsibilities. If you are not willing to follow the laws that bind the people of the United States, then you should not live in the United States. Same goes for any other nation.

Those are an awful lot of assumptions you're plucking from thin air there, Tex. Why not deal with the facts rather than making up a whole scenario about how assault could be appropriate?

This is kinda old but it bears mentioning.

You're quoting from a paragraph I wrote specifically designed as a hypothetical scenario, because at that time in the thread we dind't have any of those details one way or another, and my purpose was to offer a hypothetical scenario that would explain his actions without the massive number of assumptions I saw others making in order to condemn him.

Keep the context.

However we later learned that this guy was a habitually violent person, he would probably have escalated the severity of his attack if he hadn't been forced o ut, and his apology only came in court. None of that was known before, but people were assuming it, which is unfair.

And Soviestan, your position is weakened by this. You want us to ignore the pattern that has emegred in this individual's behavior in order to give him a pass. Tell me, why don't ALL Muslims react this way? They don't. Is it because they're not properly practicing their religion, or is it truly a case here where one guy acted inapropriately? If so, why defend him?

I know a few female Muslims.. I know how they feel about this.

I know a few female Muslims, too. And while they would generally, given the time to make the choice, prefer a female doctor, none would refuse treatment by a male doctor if the choice were not available.

The hospital is clear that it provides gender-specific doctors to patients if staffing permits. It seems fairly evident that, in this case, staffing did not permit that. In such a situation, none of the Muslim women I know would have refused treatment, nor would any of the Muslim men I know have encouraged her too.

the other muslims consider soviestan to be a liberal muslim.

Hardly. Soviestan's conversion, if that is truly what it is, has been to a truly extreme version of Islam.

There are many places where Allah's wishes for mankind come into direct conflict with human laws. If you desire to remain out of prison, then the only honorable thing for you to do is to choose not to live in those places.

In the United States, you do not have the right to violate your wife's rights as a patient. If you are not willing to abide by that law, then you should not choose to live in the United States. Choosing to live in a country where you know you will routinely break the law is dishonorable.

Don't forget there is a fairly large number of people out there who'd like to see the USA changed into an Islamic state... I sometimes wonder if this isn't an example of such a person.

Don't forget there is a fairly large number of people out there who'd like to see the USA changed into an Islamic state..
:rolleyes:

Yeah, just like there are Jews wanting to make the US into another Israel, and there are blacks trying to make it into a new Africa, and the Mexicans are trying to conquer Texas...

Frankly, I think Americans have far more to fear from Christianists who want to turn this country into a Christian theocracy. They have exponentially more money, more power, and more influence, and their agenda is every bit as radical as Sharia.

Given that the patient in the hypothetical scenario under discussion is your wife, the fact that you couldn't care less about her rights would explain why some people in this thread have suggested that you would make an extremely poor husband.

He would make an extremely poor father too. I remember him saying in a thread where the discussion was about rape caused by women not being "modest" enough. When I asked him, would he blame his daughter if she was a victim in such a scenario, he said yes. I can't go digging proof of this, but I stand by my claim.

And funnily enough, he says this in the other thread, at DCD

Nice try at trying to make Islam look backward, but its not going to work.

No Soveistan. DCD is not trying to make Islam look backward. You are doing a fine job of that yourselves.

I'm not saying Muslims should have different laws. What I'm saying is that especially hospitals of all places should be able to accommodate the religious concerns of people. Especially something like this where the husband had requested a female doctor ahead of time. This man doesn't deserve to be jailed, he deserved to get the hospital care he requested.

The hospital provides a female doctor "when staffing permits." Those are simple words, what don't you understand? And as I think I said earlier, you don't know what the circumstances were. Perhaps the woman suffering the after-effects of a difficult birth to the point where the doctor determined she needed immediate attention. And anyway, the husband wasn't the one in need of medical care ("he deserved to get the hospital care he requested"), his wife was. And again, he crossed the line by physically assaulting the doctor. So yes, Soviestan, he gets arrested.

Hardly. Soviestan's conversion, if that is truly what it is, has been to a truly extreme version of Islam.
People who convert to extreme religions usually have no sense of self worth. They probably do not have many friends, feel akward around women and don't really know anything that they excell at. They tend to feel like society around them shuns them and they look for a way to put themselves on a pedastal. From their Muslim Extremist perch they can point fingers at all those kids who thought they were a little wierd and may have picked on them, all those girls that they lusted after who would not date them much less have sex with them, all those people who never paid them any mind and say, "You are the infidel and my Muslim brothers and I will swim in your blood." It also allows them access to a subservient Muslim woman who they can finally have sex with.

All I can say is, that poor kid. Growing up with a dad like that should be reeeeal fun.

For the child's sake, I really hope the child is a boy. He'll probably receive all the medical treatment he needs growing up, and then can hopefully see beyond his father's viewpoints. If the child is a girl, there's a good chance she won't make it to adulthood.

I could care less about patients' rights. I was talking about the laws in Islam that give a husband say over what happens to his wife. I follow what Allah wishes for man kind, not laws drawn up by man.

Tough shit, this is the west. God doesn't have a say here.

To paraphrase the usual suspects....you don't have to care about the law. The law cares about you.

Hardly. Soviestan's conversion, if that is truly what it is, has been to a truly extreme version of Islam.

I am far from an extremist, I'm not sure where that came from. I'm really more of a moderate.

I am far from an extremist, I'm not sure where that came from. I'm really more of a moderate.

bullshit.

bullshit.

o rly? how I am an extremist?

I'm not saying Muslims should have different laws. What I'm saying is that especially hospitals of all places should be able to accommodate the religious concerns of people. Especially something like this where the husband had requested a female doctor ahead of time. This man doesn't deserve to be jailed, he deserved to get the hospital care he requested.

Requesting specific care does not give you the right to assult someone

o rly? how I am an extremist?

because you would deny fundamental human liberties to someone who has two X chromosomes, for no other reason than they have two X chromosomes, and you do it because you believe god said so.

That makes you an extremist. No better than the run of the mill nazis, white supremacists and the like.

I'm not saying Muslims should have different laws. What I'm saying is that especially hospitals of all places should be able to accommodate the religious concerns of people. Especially something like this where the husband had requested a female doctor ahead of time. This man doesn't deserve to be jailed, he deserved to get the hospital care he requested.

They should attempt to accomodate such requests. If such accomodation is not possible at the time, it cannot be provided.

I must ask, however, since you seem so very sure that Allah forbids male doctors to tend to female patients, should female patients in strict, Muslim-controlled countries never receive medical treatment? After all, in many of these countries, women cannot become doctors at all.

No Soveistan. DCD is not trying to make Islam look backward. You are doing a fine job of that yourselves.

You shouldn't make that plural. Soviestan does not represent all, or even most, Muslims.


I am far from an extremist, I'm not sure where that came from. I'm really more of a moderate.

No, you aren't. I know moderate Muslims. I know some liberal ones, too. You are on the extreme side of things. Most Muslims wouldn't refuse necessary medical treatment to a woman because the doctor on staff is male - and most Muslim women wouldn't refuse either. Most Muslims don't view women as inferior to men, as you quite obviously do. Most Muslims don't think that a woman who is raped is at fault for that rape. Most Muslim men do not consider themselves as having the right to complete control over their wives. And so on....

You shouldn't make that plural. Soviestan does not represent all, or even most, Muslims.



No, you aren't. I know moderate Muslims. I know some liberal ones, too. You are on the extreme side of things. Most Muslims wouldn't refuse necessary medical treatment to a woman because the doctor on staff is male - and most Muslim women wouldn't refuse either. Most Muslims don't view women as inferior to men, as you quite obviously do. Most Muslims don't think that a woman who is raped is at fault for that rape. Most Muslim men do not consider themselves as having the right to complete control over their wives. And so on....

As I said, Soviestan is moderate in the same way that neo nazis and the Ku Klux Klan are moderate.

I am far from an extremist, I'm not sure where that came from. I'm really more of a moderate.

All extremists call themselves moderate. ;)

They should attempt to accomodate such requests. If such accomodation is not possible at the time, it cannot be provided.

I must ask, however, since you seem so very sure that Allah forbids male doctors to tend to female patients, should female patients in strict, Muslim-controlled countries never receive medical treatment? After all, in many of these countries, women cannot become doctors at all.

Good question if by and large women are not supposed to be in the work place how do you expect women to get care from women healthcare workers

You shouldn't make that plural. Soviestan does not represent all, or even most, Muslims.

Of course he doesn't. I personally have dozens of friends who are muslims of all varieties. But I find it a bit ironical and amusing when he says DCD is trying to make Islam look bad, when his own opinions and posts here makes a fine job of that.

I am far from an extremist, I'm not sure where that came from. I'm really more of a moderate.

I'll take that as a verification of what I've been saying for the last 2 years.

I could care less about patients' rights. I was talking about the laws in Islam that give a husband say over what happens to his wife. I follow what Allah wishes for man kind, not laws drawn up by man.

Then live in a country where Allah's laws and man's laws coincide.

I'll take that as a verification of what I've been saying for the last 2 years.

A 1 mans self opinion as verification of what?

If you think 1 person with a bias view of them self is proof of anything other then his self view you are a lot less bright then I had thought.

You shouldn't make that plural. Soviestan does not represent all, or even most, Muslims.


I never claimed to represent or speak for other Muslims. There are many, many Muslims and all have different and unique views on a lot of things.

No, you aren't. I know moderate Muslims. I know some liberal ones, too. You are on the extreme side of things. Most Muslims wouldn't refuse necessary medical treatment to a woman because the doctor on staff is male - and most Muslim women wouldn't refuse either. Most Muslims don't view women as inferior to men, as you quite obviously do. Most Muslims don't think that a woman who is raped is at fault for that rape. Most Muslim men do not consider themselves as having the right to complete control over their wives. And so on....

I don't view women as inferior, I do however believe Allah had given different roles to men and women and women should know theirs. I also have said more than once I would not deny treatment if it meant life or death. Also I never said women were to blame for being raped, women shouldn't be raped at all. However I do think when women dress improperly it adds temptation for that sort of thing to happen. If you want to call me an extremist fine, but to me its clear I'm not.

They should attempt to accomodate such requests. If such accomodation is not possible at the time, it cannot be provided.

I must ask, however, since you seem so very sure that Allah forbids male doctors to tend to female patients, should female patients in strict, Muslim-controlled countries never receive medical treatment? After all, in many of these countries, women cannot become doctors at all.
I don't think that right. Women shouldn't be denied education or the chance to be doctors simply because they are women.

Then live in a country where Allah's laws and man's laws coincide.

sadly there is no true Islamic state in the world. If there were, believe me I'd be on a plane tommorrow.

I don't view women as inferior, I do however believe Allah had given different roles to men and women and women should know theirs.Which by your backwards definition is a subservient, inferior role.I also have said more than once I would not deny treatment if it meant life or death.You have also made it clear that you feel like you should have the final say in the decision about who will provide that treatment and when.Also I never said women were to blame for being raped, women shouldn't be raped at all. However I do think when women dress improperly it adds temptation for that sort of thing to happen.And yet research has shown that dress has no bearing at all on a woman's chances of being rapred. Look how often it happens to women in Islamic countries where they are covered head to toe.If you want to call me an extremist fine,okay.:) but to me its clear I'm not.
Of course not. Pat Robertson doesn't call himself an extremist, either.

sadly there is no true Islamic state in the world. If there were, believe me I'd be on a plane tommorrow.

There are certainly countries that are more closely in tune with your values. Try Pakistan.

I doubt she would have died
complicated births may very well lead to death, why would you doubt that ? And if it were the case that she may have died.. would it have THEN been alright to have a male physician there ? or would you prefer to risk her life ?

That is the question that was really being asked

Again I hardly think she would have died if they waited. her husband requested a female doctor in advance, the hospital should have had one ready.

As the hospital stated, in a country which is vehimently secular, adhereing to individuals religious belifs in a public institution is a CURITSY not a right. The hospital was not obligated to change its staffing practices for this particular instance.

it doesn't matter if the doctor considers it sexual or not, he is still doing something that he doesn't have a right to do.

In your culture he dosnt' have that right, but remember, this is not an islamic state we are talking about. When you are the immigrant, it is your culutral distinctivnesses which are going to be sacrificed over the host countries.. not the other way around. If the husband was concerned about the type of care his wife would receive he should have been more cautious.

And why is it all these stories end in the muslim resorting to violence ? can't it for once end in more diplomatic terms...

Assaulting a civil servant in France, which includes teachers, physicians and surgeons, advocates, and other professionals working for the public service, is considered a serious offence; indeed, it is considered an direct affront to the State.

Not only that, but it was a very aggressive and obnoxious display of religion in a State building. It's enough to raise the hackles of anyone who believes in laïcité.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/GrammarTime.gif It's HAVE! Or 've. Never, never ever "of". :rolleyes::headbang::mad: (Yes, I'm a grammar nazi. So?)

Sorry. Normaly my spelling and grammer are better.

People who convert to extreme religions usually have no sense of self worth. They probably do not have many friends, feel akward around women and don't really know anything that they excell at. They tend to feel like society around them shuns them and they look for a way to put themselves on a pedastal. From their Muslim Extremist perch they can point fingers at all those kids who thought they were a little wierd and may have picked on them, all those girls that they lusted after who would not date them much less have sex with them, all those people who never paid them any mind and say, "You are the infidel and my Muslim brothers and I will swim in your blood." It also allows them access to a subservient Muslim woman who they can finally have sex with.
You've just put into words what I've always been thinking. These converts are usually the rejects of society, and with their conversions they can claim that they've rejected society when the opposite is true. Look at how many criminal scum convert to islam in prison. They claim to be reformed and changed when they're just as much scum as they always were, they only convert to islam because they see it as a way to get back on society. Same as these neo-nazis, just covering for their own inadequacies.

There are certainly countries that are more closely in tune with your values. Try Pakistan.
But people like him never will move. They decry the west but they won't move to a place that is more suited to them. It's because they're greedy - they can earn more in the west so that trumps their religion even though they like to advertise themselves as these moral, upstanding and family-orientated people.

You've just put into words what I've always been thinking. These converts are usually the rejects of society, and with their conversions they can claim that they've rejected society when the opposite is true. Look at how many criminal scum convert to islam in prison. They claim to be reformed and changed when they're just as much scum as they always were, they only convert to islam because they see it as a way to get back on society. Same as these neo-nazis, just covering for their own inadequacies.yes. Works with every religion, though. It's the same reason those people who used to stand on the stage in the quad in college with the signs that say, "God hates fags and rock music," converted to Christianity.


But people like him never will move. They decry the west but they won't move to a place that is more suited to them. It's because they're greedy - they can earn more in the west so that trumps their religion even though they like to advertise themselves as these moral, upstanding and family-orientated people.

They're also afraid that they'll be shuned in the eyes of "real Muslims" when they get there. It'll be the same all over again.

I don't think that right. Women shouldn't be denied education or the chance to be doctors simply because they are women.

Still doesn't answer my question. What should a woman in such a country do when she needs medical attention?

Still doesn't answer my question. What should a woman in such a country do when she needs medical attention?

Pray. These are usually religious countries, after all.

I never claimed to represent or speak for other Muslims. There are many, many Muslims and all have different and unique views on a lot of things.

And yet, you have chosen the extreme end of the spectrum, despite your fairly moderate views before your conversion. Why?

I don't view women as inferior, I do however believe Allah had given different roles to men and women and women should know theirs.

....to be subservient and do what you say.

I also have said more than once I would not deny treatment if it meant life or death.

Who determines whether or not it means life and death? Aren't the people most able to make that determination the medical professionals who wish to treat her?

Meanwhile, you said in another thread that you can ingest non-halal products for your health - even simply in a preventative manner, when no life and death situation is at hand. Women, on the other hand, must follow the rules to the tee, even if they just might have a life-threatening condition, unless it is obvious to you that the situation is "life and death". Do you really not see the contradiction?

Also I never said women were to blame for being raped, women shouldn't be raped at all. However I do think when women dress improperly it adds temptation for that sort of thing to happen.

....which is blaming them for being raped. It is also horribly inaccurate, as rape is about power, not sex. Serial rapists have testified more than once that they tended to look for women with baggy clothing who were not attractive, rather than the other way around.

If you want to call me an extremist fine, but to me its clear I'm not.

I'm sure Fred Phelps thinks he isn't an extremist as well.