NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6308365.stm

Iraq clashes 'kill 250 militants'

US and Iraqi troops have killed about 250 militants in fierce fighting around the holy city of Najaf, police say.

The battle raged all day as US-backed Iraqi army units fought the previously unidentified group in orchards on the northern outskirts of Najaf.

Three Iraqi soldiers had reportedly died in the battle and 21 were injured.

The US military said two of its troops died when their helicopter was shot down, but did not confirm any of the Iraqi casualty figures.

An Iraqi official in the Najaf governor's office told the BBC that 21 Iraqi soldiers had been injured in the clashes, which occurred in a neighbourhood called Zarqa, and the Iraqi army was sweeping the area.

Unnamed Iraqi sources said that the insurgents were from a previously unknown militant group calling themselves the Army of Heaven, or Soldiers of Heaven.

Asaad Abu Gilel, the governor of Najaf province, said that the gunmen had been intent on attacking Shia clerics and pilgrims marking the holy festival of Ashura.

"They are well-equipped and they even have anti-aircraft missiles. They are backed by some locals," he said.

----------------------------------

Schools were also attacked.

So the madness continues. And a seemingly a new Sunni group. Armed with anti aircraft weapons.

Sadr is able to use Iraqi government units at will because they either consist of his men or the units are sympathetic.

This situation is beyond anyones control.

The point of the post please. What would you like to see us discuss or are you just posting a news article?

He offered comment.


Sadr is able to use Iraqi government units at will because they either consist of his men or the units are sympathetic.

This situation is beyond anyones control.

Take it easy.

The point of the post please. What would you like to see us discuss or are you just posting a news article?

Well there are few points one could use as a basis...

Is there a large enough Sunni force to take on Sadr (unlikely) to what amount of power Sadr has (significant)...to...well anti aircraft weapons to the connivance of Iraqi 'regulars' to Sadr...

Or even deeper issues like the mass exodus of the middle classes to surrounding countries...will these people...who are needed for any kind of democracy return? What circumstances would be agreeable for them to return....

And ultimately the £32,000 question...what needs to be done to stop this madness from getting worse?

Or I posted a news article....

Well there are few points one could use as a basis...

Or even deeper issues like the mass exodus of the middle classes to surrounding countries...will these people...who are needed for any kind of democracy return? What circumstances would be agreeable for them to return....

I would agree that the middle class is needed for a stable democracy and to rebuild the economy of the country. What is needed for their return is an end to the sectarian violence. The only way that can happen is for the elected government of Iraq to pull together, and implement and enforce the laws of the country. They need their police and their army to do the enforcing. If they are not willing to do that there is noting the allies can do to save the county from spiraling into a full civil war.

If it does escalate into a full-fledged civil war, I think the Kurds would pull out of the government and declare independence. Saudi Arabia and Iran would become deeply involved in supporting the Sunni and Shiites and all of Iraq, except for the Kurdish area, would become a lawless haven for international terrorists.

I would agree that the middle class is needed for a stable democracy and to rebuild the economy of the country. What is needed for their return is an end to the sectarian violence. The only way that can happen is for the elected government of Iraq to pull together, and implement and enforce the laws of the country. They need their police and their army to do the enforcing. If they are not willing to do that there is noting the allies can do to save the county from spiraling into a full civil war.

If it does escalate into a full-fledged civil war, I think the Kurds would pull out of the government and declare independence. Saudi Arabia and Iran would become deeply involved in supporting the Sunni and Shiites and all of Iraq, except for the Kurdish area, would become a lawless haven for international terrorists.

I think we agree that the end to the violence is needed. The problem is that Sadr effectively controls the government. Sadr will not give the time of day to the Sunni's. However things can change ( Sinn Fein votes to support police (http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/homepage/int/ne/nhdr/h1/t/-/news/1/hi/northern_ireland/6308175.stm)) but it will take an awful long time. And I am not sure there is enough time.

The police and the army are infiltrated. I really cannot see how the government can use them effectively. Even if they used units loyal to the Government (and not Sadr) to arrest the turned units it would most likely prove to be too big a job. After all this is asymmetric warfare at its hardest.

If it does degenerate into a civil war (I think its already happening for what its worth) what moral obligations do we have then? And to who?

The Kurds declare independence I suspect Turkey will disengage with the US. I am not sure about the EU application. They might well can that on their own accord.

Saudi Arabia is really the power broker here isn't it? Not Iran. The 'Iraqi' do not like the Iranians.

They could well hold the key to stability...except that the House of Saud is corrupt as they come.

I am not sure what you mean by international terrorists...the Tamil for example are unlikely to want to get involved...(ok..a bad example...) if you mean 'Islamic' terrorists...I think you could well be right. But I do not see (unless I am very mistaken) a Iranian/Iraqi relationship of that nature.

Sure there are Iranians fermenting discord....but as the saying goes...the enemy of my enemy is my friend on a short term basis etc etc...

So really at the end I fail to see how this can be dealt with. We learned from the Russian/Chechen wars that even the destruction of cities is not a solution. Total wholesale slaughter might be...but then we end up killing all those we ostensible went to Iraq to liberate from Saddam.

This is cluster fuck of epic proportions.

Sounds like something pretty terrible was prevented here.. 250+ members of an armed gang going after massed pilgrims wouldn't have been good.

3 killed and 21 wounded in exchange for 250 kills? Holy shit, the Iraqi Army is pretty damn effective. :eek:

3 killed and 21 wounded in exchange for 250 kills? Holy shit, the Iraqi Army is pretty damn effective. :eek:

Hopefully all those 250 "militants" killed were actually militants and not innocent civilians.

Hopefully all those 250 "militants" killed were actually militants and not innocent civilians.

Hopefully. I really hope so, because I doubt there's much worse than killing your own fellow citizens.

I find two-hundred and fifty to be a dubious number. Fifty I'd accept.

I find two-hundred and fifty to be a dubious number. Fifty I'd accept.

Fair point that. Lets see how this develops. Either way though its still a cluster fuck.

Sounds like something pretty terrible was prevented here.. 250+ members of an armed gang going after massed pilgrims wouldn't have been good.
Good point. Though what is worrying is the fact that an gang could amass 250+ well-armed members without anyone knowing about them previously.
How many more unknown militant groups are out there? And why can't intel find them?

And why can't intel find them?

This is US intel. Under the Bush administration. Need I say more?

Besides, I wonder how many of that 250 were really armed militants.

Besides, I wonder how many of that 250 were really armed militants.Probably not that many. Training & arming that many people requires a fuckload of resources, so given the apparent surprise, it'd seem implausible more than a couple of handfuls were anything resembling militia.

Then again, it depends on one's definition of militant & armed. Schoolkids & random demonstrators trying to defend themselves from police aggression are often called one or both.

Probably not that many. Training & arming that many people requires a fuckload of resources, so given the apparent surprise, it'd seem implausible more than a couple of handfuls were anything resembling militia.

Then again, it depends on one's definition of militant & armed. Schoolkids & random demonstrators trying to defend themselves from police aggression are often called one or both.

Arming that many people really isn't a problem seeing as pretty much every house has an ak in it. From the media reports it was a militia so b/c militias are legal in iraq it really wouldn't be that hard to provide rudimentary training. Evidenced by the 20,000 some insurgents in iraq.

Hopefully. I really hope so, because I doubt there's much worse than killing your own fellow citizens.

It's pretty bad
only thing as bad or worse is killing another country's innocent civilians.

This is US intel. Under the Bush administration. Need I say more?

Besides, I wonder how many of that 250 were really armed militants.

If it's brown it's Charlie.

Perhaps if it's Sunni it's "evil"?

I wonder how many of that 250 were really armed militants.
Oh, they were all armed in that they all had dangly bits off their shoulders with a hand attached at one end.
That's close enough.

Probably not that many. Training & arming that many people requires a fuckload of resources,

You're assuming they were well trained - or that it was necessary to 'train' them. Remember that there are lots and lots of people in Iraq who have past military experience. Remember also there's no entrance exam to become an insurgent.

Further:

Did 250 people really die?

Or is it like this:

"We killed 250 people!"

"Uh, where are the bodies?"

"Umm, they carry away their dead... we found some blood, though Sir.."

Did 250 people really die?

Or is it like this:

"We killed 250 people!"

"Uh, where are the bodies?"

"Umm, they carry away their dead... we found some blood, though Sir.."

Or was it really 250 armed militia?

"We killed 250 militia!"

"Where are they're weapons?"

"We destroyed them."

"Why are they all shot in the back of the head?"

"Because they never saw us."

"And they're all hogtied because?"

"Ummm, well, it's easier to carry the dead that way. Yeah. That's it"

"And the blindfolds?"

"Uhm, well, you see, well, we just had this extra cloth and didn't know what to do with it."

Seems the death toll has risen instead of falling...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6308821.stm

'Hundreds' killed in Iraq battles

US and Iraqi troops have killed at least 300 militants in battles around the city of Najaf, Iraqi sources say.

Fighting has continued since US-backed Iraqi army units clashed with the previously unidentified group on the northern edge of Najaf on Sunday.
---------------

Seems this Sunni group wanted to attack Shia pilgrims...

Bushnam keeps looking more and more like Vietnam. We are starting to count bodies and everyone we kill is an enemy (insurgent)--- men, women and children. After all the good US would never kill anyone who isn't evil.

More people have been killed in Iraq per year under US rule than were killed per year under Saddam. And Saddam killed treasoners, convicts, and their family, friends and supporters. Under the US people are killed at random. Under Saddam there was virtually no crime (criminals were killed), women had virtually equal rights. There were jobs and middle class living conditions for most. Health care was available.

They had no freedom but they did have safety. Now they have "freedom" but no safety. The US had freedom but less safety. Now we have more safety but less freedom. That is the trade off.

More people have been killed in Iraq per year under US rule than were killed per year under Saddam.

Proof?

Under Saddam there was virtually no crime (criminals were killed), women had virtually equal rights.

At least this is what Saddam's regime claimed.


They had no freedom but they did have safety.

Apart from all those people who were killed in the monstrous wars Saddam started, purged by chemical weapons, and so forth?

No freedom = no safety.

Well thats two sources I consider to be pretty reliable quoting 250.

However...it was a death cult!


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2193702.ece

US soldiers in Iraq kill 250 men from 'apocalyptic cult'
By Patrick Cockburn in Baghdad
Published: 29 January 2007

American and Iraqi troops killed about 250 armed men alleged to belong to an apocalyptic Islamic cult who were planning to attack the religious leadership of the Shia in the holy city of Najaf, according to Iraqi political, military and police sources.

The battle took place in the orchards around Najaf and a US helicopter was shot down during the fighting, killing two crewmen. Hundreds of fighters drawn from the Sunni and Shia communities who gathered amid the date palms were followers of Ahmed Hassani al-Yemeni who claims to be the vanguard of the Messiah according to Iraqi politicians. His office in Najaf had been closed 10 days ago.

Details of what happened are sketchy. The US forces used tanks and F-16 fighter bombers. An Iraqi military source said the dead wore headbands declaring them to be "Soldiers of Heaven". The Najaf governor Asaad Abu Gilel said the authorities had discovered a conspiracy to kill some of the senior clergy.

-------------------

The actual article has more.

So...thats a twist..wipe out the religious leaders in Najaf. That would have really set things going. What with Sunni and Shia committing this act...that is a hell of a twist...

Seems this Sunni group wanted to attack Shia pilgrims...

They are not sunni. They are some sort of heretical shia cult. But the report says it also had some foreign sunnis present amongst them. Says it included women and children amongst them. Not clear if they were armed and had intent to kill or they were just there and the Iraqi military is in major CYA mode.

BAGHDAD, Iraq -
Iraq's army announced Monday it killed the leader of a heavily armed cult of messianic Shiites called "the Soldiers of Heaven" :rolleyes: in a fierce gunbattle aimed at foiling a plot to attack leading Shiite clerics and pilgrims in the southern city of Najaf on the holiest day of the Shiite calendar.


Senior Iraqi security officers said that as part of the plot, three gunmen were captured in Najaf after renting a hotel room in front of the office of Iraq's most senior Shiite spiritual leader, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, with plans to attack it.

The fierce 24-hour battle was ultimately won by Iraqi troops supported by U.S. and British jets and American ground forces, but the ability of a splinter group little known in Iraq to rally hundreds of heavily armed fighters was a reminder of the potential for chaos and havoc emerging seemingly out of nowhere. Members of the group, which included women and children, planned to disguise themselves as pilgrims and kill as many leading clerics as possible, said Maj. Gen. Othman al-Ghanemi, the Iraqi commander in charge of the Najaf region.

The cult's leader, wearing jeans, a coat and a hat and carrying two pistols, was among those who died in the battle, al-Ghanemi said. Although he went by several aliases, he was identified as Dia Abdul Zahra Kadim, 37, from Hillah, south of Baghdad, according to Abdul-Hussein Abtan, deputy governor of Najaf. Kadim had been detained twice in the past few years, Abtan said.

The U.S. military said Iraqi security forces were sent to the area Sunday after receiving a tip that gunmen were joining pilgrims headed to Najaf for Ashoura, a commemoration of the 7th-century death of Imam Hussein, grandson of the Prophet Muhammad. The major religious festival culminates on Tuesday.

The gunmen had put up tents in fields lined with date palm groves surrounding Najaf, 100 miles south of the capital. They planned to launch their attack Monday night when Ashoura celebrations would be getting under way, the Iraqi security officers told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to disclose the information.

In the battle to foil the attack on the pilgrims, Iraqi and U.S. forces faced off against more than 200 gunmen with small arms fire, rocket-propelled grenades and hand grenades, the U.S. military said. The battle took place about 12 miles northeast of Najaf.

The American military said U.S. air power was called in after the Iraqis faced fierce resistance. American ground forces were also deployed after small arms fire downed a U.S. helicopter, killing two soldiers.

U.S. and British jets played a major role in the fighting, dropping 500-pound bombs on the militants' positions, but President Bush said the battle was an indication that Iraqis were beginning to take control.

"My first reaction on this report from the battlefield is that the Iraqis are beginning to show me something," Bush told National Public Radio on Monday.

The U.S. military said more than 100 gunmen were captured but it did not say how many were killed. Iraqi defense officials, by contrast, said 200 militants were killed, 60 wounded and at least 120 captured.

"It seems most likely that this was Shiite-on-Shiite violence, with millenarian cultists making an attempt to march on Najaf during the chaos of the ritual season of Muharram," Juan Cole, an Islamic scholar at the University of Michigan, said on his Web site. "The dangers of Shiite-on-Shiite violence in Iraq are substantial, as this episode demonstrated."

But Iraqi officials said Sunni extremists and Saddam Hussein loyalists were helping the cult in their bid to ambush Shiite worshippers.

"We have information from our intelligence sources that indicated the leader of this group had links with the former regime elements since 1993," said Ahmed al-Fatlawi said, a member of the Najaf provincial council.

In addition to Iraqi Shiites, the gunmen included Sunnis and foreigners, according to al-Fatlawi. Other Najaf government officials said Afghans, Saudis and even a Sudanese were among the dead.

Al-Ghanemi said the area where the men were staying was once run by Saddam's al-Quds Army, a military organization the late president established in the 1990s.

Abtan told Iraqi state television that the group had developed a military structure, acquiring the heavy arms and digging trenches in preparation for battle.

"What we want to know is where they bought all these weapons?" al-Ghanemi said, adding that the army seized some 500 automatic rifles in addition to mortars, heavy machine guns and Russian-made Katyusha rockets in what amounted to a major test for Iraq's new military as it works toward taking over responsibility for security from U.S.-led forces.

Al-Ghanemi said the group — called the Jund al-Samaa, or Soldiers of Heaven — is considered heretical by mainstream Shiite clerics and had been planning for months to attack Najaf during the Ashoura ceremonies.

Imam Hussein died in the battle of Karbala in A.D. 680. The battle cemented a schism in Islam between Shiites and Sunnis, a division that has spiraled in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003 and in particular since the Feb. 22, 2006 bombing of a Shiite shrine in Samarra.

The Ashoura festival includes processions and ceremonies, including self-flagellation, in a show of grief to mark Hussein's death in battle.

The planned attack on Najaf was an attempt by the cult to force the return of the "hidden imam," a 9th-century saint who Shiites believe will return to bring peace and justice to the world, according to al-Fatlawi.

The gunmen planned to distribute leaflets in Najaf saying that the hidden imam will appear again, al-Ghanemi said. In the tents outside Najaf, troops found pamphlets titled "Heaven's Judge," according to the senior Iraqi security officers.

Members had gathered on a farm to prepare to launch their attack, Abtan said. They used date-palm groves as cover, forcing some farmers at gunpoint to help them, said al-Fatlawi. Other officials in Najaf said Saddam loyalists bought the groves six months ago.

Abtan said they planned first to occupy a major mosque in Najaf, then bombard the police stations and kill the religious leaders.

"They intended to occupy Najaf, then topple the Iraqi government and kill all the great religious leaders," he said.

Some of the gunmen brought their families with them in order to make it easier to enter the city, al-Fatlawi said. "The women have been detained," al-Fatlawi said.

Abtan said most of the gunmen who were killed were left on the battlefield and would be taken for burial on Tuesday.

"There were families with them, women and children," he said.

The U.S. military, which turned over provincial control to Iraqi security forces in Najaf last month, touted the operation as a victory for Iraqi forces, singling out their efforts to recover the bodies of two U.S. soldiers killed when their helicopter went down during the fighting.

"This is an example of a promise kept," Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks, deputy commander of the Multi-National Division — Baghdad and the 1st Cavalry Division, said. "Everything worked just as it should have."

Damn this group was packed, heavy machine guns and Katyusha rockets? Digging Trenches and stuff? They had some professionals in this bunch.

They are not sunni. They are some sort of heretical shia cult. But the report says it also had some foreign sunnis present amongst them. Says it included women and children amongst them. Not clear if they were armed and had intent to kill or they were just there and the Iraqi military is in major CYA mode.

yeah....see my last post above yours...

On the BBC newsnight programme there was quite a detailed report. It seems this bunch were anti Sadr. So they (Iraqi/US) could have done Sadr a favour in taking this group out. The Americans did not get directly involved in this action apparently. They were involved in co-ordinating the attack though.

They were as well armed as the Iraqi Army. Which isn't saying much when compared to the US.