NationStates Jolt Archive

Norway OUTLAWED iTunes.

http://blogs.pcworld.com/digitalworld/archives/2007/01/norway_outlaws.html

Woohoo! A kick in the balls to Apple! I love it! :)

"The crux of the issue is that the Fairplay DRM that is at the heart of the iTunes/iPod universe doesn't work with anything else, meaning that if you want access to the cast iTunes library, you have to buy an iPod. That didn't sit well with the Norwegian Consumer Council, the body that kicked the whole thing off by filing a complaint with Norway's consumer ombudsman. France and Germany have also joined in on the action."

Interesting. So they are opposing this as a form of monopoly or coercion?

Norway OUTLAWED iTunes.

http://blogs.pcworld.com/digitalworld/archives/2007/01/norway_outlaws.html

I somewhat agree with them.

That's retarded. Let people vote with their wallets. If people don't like iTunes, they won't purchase music from them. The gov't has no buisness getting involved.

http://www.vgmuseum.com/scans/scans2/monopoly.jpg

fun game (well no its shit really) not so good reality

So government should never regulate the practices of businesses? Wiggy.

Not even the US believes that to be completely true. Anti-trust anyone?

That's asinine. Let people vote with their wallets. If people don't like iTunes, they won't purchase music from them. The gov't has no buisness getting involved.

That's retarded. Let people vote with their wallets. If people don't like iTunes, they won't purchase music from them. The gov't has no buisness getting involved.

So government should never regulate the practices of businesses? Wiggy.

That's retarded. Let people vote with their wallets. If people don't like iTunes, they won't purchase music from them. The gov't has no buisness getting involved.when there is a monopoly people canNOT vote with their wallets..

thats why we have antitrust laws.

I am all for deregulation.. but antitrust laws are needed.

The government has no business playing favourites.

This isn't a monopoly situation. ITunes can only be accessed by IPods? That's perfectly all right, because what they are selling is readily available elsewhere. All the music on ITunes can be gotten in other ways. Therefore, there is no monopoly.

The government has no business playing favourites.

This isn't a monopoly situation. ITunes can only be accessed by IPods? That's perfectly all right, because what they are selling is readily available elsewhere. All the music on ITunes can be gotten in other ways. Therefore, there is no monopoly.

Would the argument be that the subject matter is not the music itself, but rather the format, thefore monopoly?

Fuck yeah, all hail Norway. Hopefully the rest of Europe with their more strict than the US anti-bullshit laws will do the same thing, or take them to court for antitrust moves.

Would the argument be that the subject matter is not the music itself, but rather the format, thefore monopoly?

That would be a reasonable argument, save for the existence of non-IPod MP3 players, which do effectively identical things to an IPod, just using slightly different software. I don't know of anything you can do with an IPod that can't be done just as easily with other formats.

And you can't call a format a monopoly. They're patentable, which makes them an entirely legal monopoly under the law.

when there is a monopoly people canNOT vote with their wallets..

thats why we have antitrust laws.

I am all for deregulation.. but antitrust laws are needed.

I don't see how iTunes has a monopoly. There are many online music services out there. Cd's are still readily available. iTunes is by far not the only way to purchase online music. It's just the most popular.

MSN music is more restrictive that iTunes, why doesn't Norway ban them as well?

That would be a reasonable argument, save for the existence of non-IPod MP3 players, which do effectively identical things to an IPod, just using slightly different software. I don't know of anything you can do with an IPod that can't be done just as easily with other formats.

And you can't call a format a monopoly. They're patentable, which makes them an entirely legal monopoly under the law.
Exactly right.

Apple's annoying format rectrictions are why I don't use iTunes or have an iPod, but that's my choice.

The government has no business playing favourites.

This isn't a monopoly situation. ITunes can only be accessed by IPods? That's perfectly all right, because what they are selling is readily available elsewhere. All the music on ITunes can be gotten in other ways. Therefore, there is no monopoly.hmm

after further review.. I think you are right

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g218/esevenfourteen/2348ccab.jpg

It would be one thing if iPods were the only available Mp3 player, or even if you can only put iTunes music onto your iPod but that's not the case.

Go buy an iRiver and get your online music from an alternate source like Napster.

It would be one thing if iPods were the only available Mp3 player, or even if you can only put iTunes music onto your iPod but that's not the case.

Go buy an iRiver and get your online music from an alternate source like Napster.

iTune has the largest selection of music, other carrier don't have the most popular artists and labels and albums. It's like if your TV could either only show HBO or only show ABC Family. Which TV is going to do better?

I don't care.

I don't care.

Best response so far. *is lost in apathy*

iTune has the largest selection of music, other carrier don't have the most popular artists and labels and albums. It's like if your TV could either only show HBO or only show ABC Family. Which TV is going to do better?

Yes, but CD's still exist and are readily available. Hell, they cost less now than they did five years ago alot less than they did 10 years ago. Also alot of major record stores are moving online. Sam Goody online might be ass right now, but it's brand new. I'm sure iTunes wasn't all that special year one either.

You are also forgetting about MSN music. Major artists and more restrictive. Unless they have changed, you can only play it via windows media player or with their Mp3 player (forget the name).

Norway OUTLAWED iTunes.

http://blogs.pcworld.com/digitalworld/archives/2007/01/norway_outlaws.html

HAH! Take that DRM! *whips out her giant mallet of DOOOM and whacks a random nearby iPod*

You are also forgetting about MSN music. Major artists and more restrictive. Unless they have changed, you can only play it via windows media player or with their Mp3 player (forget the name).
The Zune.

I have an iPod, but I don't use the iTunes store... I just get my songs from limewire and fix the ID3 tags myself. Because I can't stand a disorganized song library.

The government shouldn't regulate this, since this isn't an essential commodity. People can get by just fine without iTunes if they don't want to pay the money for one. If the governments outlaws iTunes, then nobody can get them.

The government shouldn't regulate this, since this isn't an essential commodity. People can get by just fine without iTunes if they don't want to pay the money for one. If the governments outlaws iTunes, then nobody can get them.
Or Apple could take out some of the DRM to bring it just this side of legal and start selling them again.

Meh...people will do what they have to to get what they want.

Best response so far. *is lost in apathy*
That's a place in France, isn't it?
You are also forgetting about MSN music. Major artists and more restrictive. Unless they have changed, you can only play it via windows media player or with their Mp3 player (forget the name).
The Zune.
The Zune is yet to be released officially in Norway, so the consumer Ombudsman has no grounds to say anything about MSN music and Zune just yet.

European consumer organisations join forces in legal dispute over iTunes Music Store

Key points:
Interoperability
"We believe consumers have a right to play material purchased online on a portable device of their own choice," the five organisations said. Contract clauses that make this impossible or too inconvenient are unfair and should be revoked, they declared. A positive answer to solve this question might be for instance renegotiating with record-companies so that the music can be sold without DRM, start licensing of their own DRM or the development of a common DRM for the industry as a whole. As of now, the organizations suggest that iTunes allow their consumers to make the songs playable on other devices through re-ripping burnt CDs containing songs downloaded from iTunes. "However, this will not serve as a long-term solution", the joint statement says. "We thus urge Apple to make substantial progress towards full interoperability until the end of September 2007."

Change of conditions
On the issue of legal terms and conditions, consumer organisations insist that iTunes revoke their clause according to which iTunes may unilaterally change their terms and conditions without seeking their customers´ consent.

Liability
The joint position also refers to potential damage claims linked to content sold by iTunes: "iTunes should change its clause limiting its liability to recover consumer damages if they are caused by content sold by iTunes."
http://www.forbrukerombudet.no/index.gan?id=11037079&subid=0

Don't forget the nickel solution to getting around iTunes copy protection: Burn the music onto a CD, then rip the CD right back. You don't even lose the album art information.

The government has no business playing favourites.

This isn't a monopoly situation. ITunes can only be accessed by IPods? That's perfectly all right, because what they are selling is readily available elsewhere. All the music on ITunes can be gotten in other ways. Therefore, there is no monopoly.

That would be a reasonable argument, save for the existence of non-IPod MP3 players, which do effectively identical things to an IPod, just using slightly different software. I don't know of anything you can do with an IPod that can't be done just as easily with other formats.

And you can't call a format a monopoly. They're patentable, which makes them an entirely legal monopoly under the law.

Quoted for Truth

That is a considerable pain in the ass compared to how I get my music.

I generally just take my music off of CD's, but it's the widely published method of defeating the iTunes protection.

Don't forget the nickel solution to getting around iTunes copy protection: Burn the music onto a CD, then rip the CD right back. You don't even lose the album art information.
That is a considerable pain in the ass compared to how I get my music.

Yes, but CD's still exist and are readily available. Hell, they cost less now than they did five years ago alot less than they did 10 years ago.
So are cassette tapes.


PS. I bet if Apple upgrades the program how the EU wants it upgrades, it will only be the European version.

So are cassette tapes.
I forgot about those. You can only find them at truck stops in the US.

PS. I bet if Apple upgrades the program how the EU wants it upgrades, it will only be the European version.
That will be unfortunate but probably true. While I don't agree with Norway's decision, I also don't agree with Apple with this [DRM] issue.

iNsane, surely?

Don't forget the nickel solution to getting around iTunes copy protection: Burn the music onto a CD, then rip the CD right back. You don't even lose the album art information.

Hell, you don't even need that. There are freely available programs that can rip music right out of an iPod.

Norway OUTLAWED iTunes.

http://blogs.pcworld.com/digitalworld/archives/2007/01/norway_outlaws.html

I don't see the insanity - this is actually quite sane. Apple is trying to force iTunes users into a lock-in. It's all fun and games as long as your iPod works, but what happens two years down the line when its battery gives in and you want to buy a new Mp3 player from someone else than Apple? You won't be able to listen to music you bought from iTunes on it - Apple forces you to buy another iPod (in perpetuity) unless you want to forfeit what you've already spent with them, and they do everything they can in their power to prevent others from making Mp3 players that can play music bought from iTunes.

Norway's Consumer Ombudsman (and hopefully soon those of the other Nordic countries) has recognised what a crap and unfair deal this is to consumers and is rightfully acting to protect them from such illegal lock-in practices. For once, go Norway!

I don't see the insanity - this is actually quite sane. Apple is trying to force iTunes users into a lock-in. It's all fun and games as long as your iPod works, but what happens two years down the line when its battery gives in and you want to buy a new Mp3 player from someone else than Apple? You won't be able to listen to music you bought from iTunes on it - Apple forces you to buy another iPod (in perpetuity) unless you want to forfeit what you've already spent with them, and they do everything they can in their power to prevent others from making Mp3 players that can play music bought from iTunes.

Norway's Consumer Ombudsman (and hopefully soon those of the other Nordic countries) has recognised what a crap and unfair deal this is to consumers and is rightfully acting to protect them from such illegal lock-in practices. For once, go Norway!

QFT

Norway OUTLAWED iTunes.

http://blogs.pcworld.com/digitalworld/archives/2007/01/norway_outlaws.html

Well, it's their call.

Hell, you don't even need that. There are freely available programs that can rip music right out of an iPod.

Given that I'm not an iPod owner, I'm not familiar with these programs, but I am not surprised that they exist.

Meh...people will do what they have to to get what they want.


I hear you bro.

AFAIK, it will only make it even harder for people to BUY music. And will make it much easier for people to download music for free.

Also, as said, there are programs to download and upload music to an ipod. Anyway, they are not oficial, but if you forbid the oficial stuff, people turn into pirates.

I hear you bro.

AFAIK, it will only make it even harder for people to BUY music. And will make it much easier for people to download music for free.

Also, as said, there are programs to download and upload music to an ipod. Anyway, they are not oficial, but if you forbid the oficial stuff, people turn into pirates.

Classic development of a black market.

If you buy from iTunes you should be fully aware of what it will work with. If you don't like iPods, don't buy from iTunes. Go to Yahoo Music, MSN, or any of a thousand others.

Caveat Emptor.

Caveat Emptor.

That in no way invalidates laws.

That in no way invalidates laws.
But why does there need to be a law preventing people from freely entering into such a perpetual agreement?

Woohoo! A kick in the balls to Apple! I love it! :)
:D :p

"The crux of the issue is that the Fairplay DRM that is at the heart of the iTunes/iPod universe doesn't work with anything else, meaning that if you want access to the cast iTunes library, you have to buy an iPod. That didn't sit well with the Norwegian Consumer Council, the body that kicked the whole thing off by filing a complaint with Norway's consumer ombudsman. France and Germany have also joined in on the action."

Interesting. So they are opposing this as a form of monopoly or coercion?

very interesting. it kinda is anticomptitive behaviour

then again Sony do the same with their cameras and audio players only using memory stick. but thats a different kettle of fish in a lot of ways

Frankly I'm shocked and appalled at the complete and utter lack of Lions (http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/kenya/) and Vikings (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/norway.php) in this thread.

But why does there need to be a law preventing people from freely entering into such a perpetual agreement?
From reading Fass's post, I think the general idea was that in order to have competition consumers have to be able to switch, for lack of a better term, music providers, which Apple currently prevents with their DRM software.

However, I'm no competition commission lawyer, so I'll have to reserve judgement on legal grounds.

From reading Fass's post, I think the general idea was that in order to have competition consumers have to be able to switch
And they do, but by buying Apple they're voluntarily forgoing that option in perpetuity.

Norway OUTLAWED iTunes.

http://blogs.pcworld.com/digitalworld/archives/2007/01/norway_outlaws.html

good for them

And they do, but by buying Apple they're voluntarily forgoing that option in perpetuity.

And there are laws to prevent companies who try to prey on consumers that way.

And they do, but by buying Apple they're voluntarily forgoing that option in perpetuity.
the net result is it is anticompetive behaviour


same kind of thing everybody slams microsoft for in fact, heh

the net result is it is anticompetive behaviour


same kind of thing everybody slams microsoft for in fact, heh

Yes, but Microsoft successfully cornered the market. There are still many viable alternatives to iTunes. Apple may or may not try to create a virtual monopoly (like microsoft). I don't think it's right to pre-ban something.

Yes, but Microsoft successfully cornered the market. There are still many viable alternatives to iTunes. Apple may or may not try to create a virtual monopoly (like microsoft). I don't think it's right to pre-ban something.

they aren't exactly the same thing, no. but i never said they were.

i just said they were similar examples of anticompetitive behaviour. which this undeniably is.

they aren't exactly the same thing, no. but i never said they were.

i just said they were similar examples of anticompetitive behaviour. which this undeniably is.

It just seems that Norway is punishing Apple for being successful. Not every large company is evil. Not every large company will pull a Microsoft. Apple created a product that's been a commercial success, that's the point of business. The government shouldn't step in before there's a problem.

Frankly I'm shocked and appalled at the complete and utter lack of Lions (http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/kenya/) and Vikings (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/norway.php) in this thread.

lol.

It just seems that Norway is punishing Apple for being successful. Not every large company is evil. Not every large company will pull a Microsoft. Apple created a product that's been a commercial success, that's the point of business. The government shouldn't step in before there's a problem.
Apple's mistake was "pulling the MS" before they got to monopoly status. Once you get yourself into an MS type monopoly, you are untouchable. Case and point: Windows Vista. Vista is not technically legal in the EU, and IBM alerted the EU about this over a year ago. Fact is, the EU hasn't yet to look into it at all (while claiming it is a priority).

Had they waited until consumers had no choice but iTunes, Apple could be abuse theirs powers to the hearts content without fear of any real recourse.

My advice to Apple:

Screw Norway, withdraw from the market. It's not worth the effort.

Apple's mistake was "pulling the MS" before they got to monopoly status. Once you get yourself into an MS type monopoly, you are untouchable. Case and point: Windows Vista. Vista is not technically legal in the EU, and IBM alerted the EU about this over a year ago. Fact is, the EU hasn't yet to look into it at all (while claiming it is a priority).

Had they waited until consumers had no choice but iTunes, Apple could be abuse theirs powers to the hearts content without fear of any real recourse.

And that is the heart of the matter. I understand why Norway did it. But as of yet Apple hasn't done anything wrong, except create a successful product.

Is it right to pre- emptively censure a company?

I'm a dinosaur who still buys CD's and doesn't download any music whatsoever.

I like watching other people get flustered over "issues" like this. :D