NationStates Jolt Archive

In another current thread, somebody posted the following:

you remind me of myself when I lost my faith. I wanted PROOF, Revelations I can see right there with my own two eyes. something that I cannot deny or explain away. a Truth that I cannot refute.

well, God gave it to me. unfortunatly, I can only share it verbally, so technically, it can't be your truth as you look for it since it was experienced.

all I can say is keep looking, keep praying and you will be answered.(Bold mine)

This post was not directed at me, but it was a recent example of something I've encountered a lot, both here and in the real world: people suggesting that if I keep trying I will find God eventually.

So what I would like to know is, why should I want to find God?

Because I'm gonna be honest here, I don't really feel any interest in finding God or gods. I mean, it might be kind of fun to meet God or whatever, but it's mostly just my general curiosity and isn't particularly high on my list of priorities.

Am I supposed to want to find God out of purely academic interest? Like, should I just want to find God so that I know it exists?

Am I supposed to have some need or want that can be satisfied by God? If so, what might that be? Is God the only (or best) source for fulfillment of this need/want?

Or is the desire to find God motivated solely by the desire to escape a punishment or obtain a reward?

Basically, why should I choose to spend any particular hour praying and trying to find God, when that hour could be spent eating a nice meal, or playing a game, or earning some money, or riding a bike, or having sex, or juggling flaming torches, or yelling at my TV set, or wrestling a bear (a small one), or building an ark, or anything else?

Because if you don't find and tag him before he touches base then you have to be 'it' again, which now means you can be auctioned off on eBay.

If you find God he'll lead you to his pot of gold, provided you don't let him esscape.

I'm right here, Bottle. :p

No reason, Bottle. I like to think that people who encourage you to "find God" have your best interests at heart and that they think that what they've found can cure all ills. They don't realize that many people outgrow the need for imaginary friends in their teens and can get along quite nicely without one.

Find God and you will be happy

At least that is what a lady keeps telling me at work every time I have a rough day. I always ask her why finding God would make me happy. Like all my problems would magically disappear. I always answer her with "what would make me happy is chocolate in one hand, alcohol in the other, and a good man with me"..it usually shuts her up for a while...

Because if you don't find and tag him before he touches base then you have to be 'it' again, which now means you can be auctioned off on eBay.

Is that what happened to me? I knew I should have looked behind the sofa.

In another current thread, somebody posted the following:
(Bold mine)

This post was not directed at me, but it was a recent example of something I've encountered a lot, both here and in the real world: people suggesting that if I keep trying I will find God eventually.

So what I would like to know is, why should I want to find God?

Because I'm gonna be honest here, I don't really feel any interest in finding God or gods. I mean, it might be kind of fun to meet God or whatever, but it's mostly just my general curiosity and isn't particularly high on my list of priorities.

Am I supposed to want to find God out of purely academic interest? Like, should I just want to find God so that I know it exists?

Am I supposed to have some need or want that can be satisfied by God? If so, what might that be? Is God the only (or best) source for fulfillment of this need/want?

Or is the desire to find God motivated solely by the desire to escape a punishment or obtain a reward?

Basically, why should I choose to spend any particular hour praying and trying to find God, when that hour could be spent eating a nice meal, or playing a game, or earning some money, or riding a bike, or having sex, or juggling flaming torches, or yelling at my TV set, or wrestling a bear (a small one), or building an ark, or anything else?

I'm not going to try to say you need to find God, but I will tell you this; you won't find God in any Church or book. Spirituality is something you find after doing alot of soul searching and self contemplation. For the longest time I thought of myself as a Christian, but after several powerful events in my life, and alot of thought I really can't say I subscribe to any one set of religious beliefs. I personally loathe organized religion and view it as a way for greedy manipulative swine to prey on peoples emotions and fears. By no stretch of the imagination am I religious, but I am spiritual.

If you do find him, just don't circle him. That way other people can use the book, too.




(okay, I think I'm done now)

Why would you need to find god? Is he lost? Damned omniscience isn't what it used to be!

Am I supposed to have some need or want that can be satisfied by God? If so, what might that be? Is God the only (or best) source for fulfillment of this need/want?

God always comes last.

Because then you'll get rated seven golden jesuses and one silver jesus out of ten.

No reason, Bottle. I like to think that people who encourage you to "find God" have your best interests at heart and that they think that what they've found can cure all ills. They don't realize that many people outgrow the need for imaginary friends in their teens and can get along quite nicely without one.
Well, that's kind of what I'm trying to understand.

The really crazy ones usually tell you that you'd better find God or you'll burn in Hell, of course, but I don't especially care about them. What I'm more interested in is the average, non-bugfuck insane believers who suggest that I should "find God." I'm curious as to WHY they think I should want to find God. I'm willing to accept that they think I will be "better off" with God in my life, but how, exactly?

I'm not going to try to say you need to find God, but I will tell you this; you won't find God in any Church or book. Spirituality is something you find after doing alot of soul searching and self contemplation. For the longest time I thought of myself as a Christian, but after several powerful events in my life, and alot of thought I really can't say I subscribe to any one set of religious beliefs. I personally loathe organized religion and view it as a way for greedy manipulative swine to prey on peoples emotions and fears. By no stretch of the imagination am I religious, but I am spiritual.All that is fair enough, but do you think that most/all people "should" search for God? Do you think people would be better off if they searched for God? And, if so, why and how?

you have to start with the supposition that there IS a god. trying to find a nonexistent god would be severely stupid and wasteful of your time on earth

you then have to suppose that this god that you have yet to find is the god of christianity, preferably the version that is a kind of loving father figure who loves you and wants you to join him in heaven. the other kind is best dealt with by animal sacrifice or tossing a virgin into a volcano now and then. ...although now that i think about it some of those hindu festivals look pretty inviting...

anway

should both of those be true, then finding him would be a great enrichment of your life. the spiritual aspect of your life would have focus and meaning.

it seems very human to me to want those things.

Because then you'll get rated seven golden jesuses and one silver jesus out of ten.
Oh, well if popularity is on the line, then that's reason enough for me! :D

I'm not going to try to say you need to find God, but I will tell you this; you won't find God in any Church or book. Spirituality is something you find after doing alot of soul searching and self contemplation. For the longest time I thought of myself as a Christian, but after several powerful events in my life, and alot of thought I really can't say I subscribe to any one set of religious beliefs. I personally loathe organized religion and view it as a way for greedy manipulative swine to prey on peoples emotions and fears. By no stretch of the imagination am I religious, but I am spiritual.

Spirituality, yes, well ... without wanting to cast aspersions on your personal quest for meaning, I cannot but agree with George Carlin and say that spirituality is the last refuge of a failed human, just another way of distracting yourself from who you really are. I prefer to deal with myself and the world as we are and not look for some ethereal answers that boil down to wishful thinking. And no, it's not a grim and dreary world I live in, thank you very much, it's filled with beauty and wonder.

Spirituality, yes, well ... without wanting to cast aspersions on your personal quest for meaning, I cannot but agree with George Carlin and say that spirituality is the last refuge of a failed human, just another way of distracting yourself from who you really are. I prefer to deal with myself and the world as we are and not look for some ethereal answers that boil down to wishful thinking. And no, it's not a grim and dreary world I live in, thank you very much, it's filled with beauty and wonder.

I think you're misunderstanding me. My personal religion (I hate to call it that) is more like a philosophy for living life than say, going to church every Sunday and praying to God when I have a problem.

All that is fair enough, but do you think that most/all people "should" search for God? Do you think people would be better off if they searched for God? And, if so, why and how?

I don't. I think everyone should try to find inner peace in their life whether that be finding God, or finding the love of your life. I live my life in what way I think is best for me, and I don't try to convert other people to my way of thinking.

If you find God he'll lead you to his pot of gold, provided you don't let him esscape.

To be sure, to be sure....

I think you're misunderstanding me. My personal religion (I hate to call it that) is more like a philosophy for living life than say, going to church every Sunday and praying to God when I have a problem.

Oh, well, I'm always happy to misunderstand people. :D

should both of those be true, then finding him would be a great enrichment of your life. the spiritual aspect of your life would have focus and meaning.

it seems very human to me to want those things.

If by the spiritual aspect of your life, you're talking about the search for transcendence, you don't need to find God. You can find transcendence in any number of places from art to literature to the natural world and a nearly infinite number of other options. You just have to work a little harder for it--but to my mind, that makes the finding of it that much more rewarding.

If by the spiritual aspect of your life, you're talking about the search for transcendence, you don't need to find God. You can find transcendence in any number of places from art to literature to the natural world and a nearly infinite number of other options. You just have to work a little harder for it--but to my mind, that makes the finding of it that much more rewarding.

i think thats only true if god doesnt exist.

if god does exist, there would be no greater trancendence possible.

i think thats only true if god doesnt exist.

if god does exist, there would be no greater trancendence possible.

Here's the difference as I see it. If you're looking for transcendence in the natural world or in the various forms of art, for example, you're looking for transcendence outside yourself, outside your mind. You're looking for it in experience. If you're looking for transcendence in God, you're really looking inside yourself for it, because even if an outside God exists, your vision of it is a personal one. It's not like there's a definitive God, a Platonic ideal of Godness that everyone shares. You're looking for your own idea of transcendence, but you're looking for it in yourself. I find the outside world far more interesting than I find what goes on in my head. I feed on it and try to transform it by creating my own art that hopefully someone else will find transcendent.

Here's the difference as I see it. If you're looking for transcendence in the natural world or in the various forms of art, for example, you're looking for transcendence outside yourself, outside your mind. You're looking for it in experience. If you're looking for transcendence in God, you're really looking inside yourself for it, because even if an outside God exists, your vision of it is a personal one. It's not like there's a definitive God, a Platonic ideal of Godness that everyone shares. You're looking for your own idea of transcendence, but you're looking for it in yourself. I find the outside world far more interesting than I find what goes on in my head. I feed on it and try to transform it by creating my own art that hopefully someone else will find transcendent.

tell the truth, youre only saying that because god doesnt exist.

I found God because I wanted to learn more about myself and my place in existence. It wasn't because I was afraid of punishment, but rather because I wanted to go beyond what I can experience in this world and explore what lies beyond.

No reason, Bottle. I like to think that people who encourage you to "find God" have your best interests at heart and that they think that what they've found can cure all ills. They don't realize that many people outgrow the need for imaginary friends in their teens and can get along quite nicely without one.

Thats really quite nasty you know?:)

tell the truth, youre only saying that because god doesnt exist.

I don't think he does, so that's why I search for transcendence in the physical universe and in the world of art. But I did believe for a long time. I was a fundamentalist christian until about 12 years ago, a Biblical literalist believe it or not. It's been a long road to get where I am today, that's for sure. ;)

I found God because I wanted to learn more about myself and my place in existence. It wasn't because I was afraid of punishment, but rather because I wanted to go beyond what I can experience in this world and explore what lies beyond.

Or, rather, explain away those little inconveniances by slapping "God" on them.

In another current thread, somebody posted the following:
(Bold mine)

This post was not directed at me, but it was a recent example of something I've encountered a lot, both here and in the real world: people suggesting that if I keep trying I will find God eventually.

So what I would like to know is, why should I want to find God?

Because I'm gonna be honest here, I don't really feel any interest in finding God or gods. I mean, it might be kind of fun to meet God or whatever, but it's mostly just my general curiosity and isn't particularly high on my list of priorities.

Am I supposed to want to find God out of purely academic interest? Like, should I just want to find God so that I know it exists?

Am I supposed to have some need or want that can be satisfied by God? If so, what might that be? Is God the only (or best) source for fulfillment of this need/want?

Or is the desire to find God motivated solely by the desire to escape a punishment or obtain a reward?

Basically, why should I choose to spend any particular hour praying and trying to find God, when that hour could be spent eating a nice meal, or playing a game, or earning some money, or riding a bike, or having sex, or juggling flaming torches, or yelling at my TV set, or wrestling a bear (a small one), or building an ark, or anything else?


Well damn me Bottle!

Heh and to think I called you sensible yesterday. If you feel no need to find God, then don't, free will and all that. Meself I feel differantly, but do what ya want.

Thats really quite nasty you know?:)

What is, being a little condescending about believers? When they stop being condescending and pitying towards me, I'll stop, too. Not that I'm constantly in a running argument with people who believe in God, mind you.

Or, rather, explain away those little inconveniances by slapping "God" on them.

No, I don't blame God for my problems. My God isn't a personal one; he is transpersonal, which means he follows the concerns of humanity, of life, as a whole and leaves us individuals as free to decide our own destinies. True freedom comes from being given the ability to determine ourselves; God gives us this because it is the most loving and most just thing to do.

if you don't want to find God, then you won't. If you want to find God then you will, the point is whether or not YOU want to find God.

No, the point (in this thread) is whether or not there is any reason for me to want to find God.

Do you believe there is a reason or reasons why people might want to find God? If so, what are they?

If you had reasons for wanting to find God, what were they?

In another current thread, somebody posted the following:
(Bold mine)

This post was not directed at me, but it was a recent example of something I've encountered a lot, both here and in the real world: people suggesting that if I keep trying I will find God eventually.

So what I would like to know is, why should I want to find God?

Because I'm gonna be honest here, I don't really feel any interest in finding God or gods. I mean, it might be kind of fun to meet God or whatever, but it's mostly just my general curiosity and isn't particularly high on my list of priorities.

Am I supposed to want to find God out of purely academic interest? Like, should I just want to find God so that I know it exists?

Am I supposed to have some need or want that can be satisfied by God? If so, what might that be? Is God the only (or best) source for fulfillment of this need/want?

Or is the desire to find God motivated solely by the desire to escape a punishment or obtain a reward?

Basically, why should I choose to spend any particular hour praying and trying to find God, when that hour could be spent eating a nice meal, or playing a game, or earning some money, or riding a bike, or having sex, or juggling flaming torches, or yelling at my TV set, or wrestling a bear (a small one), or building an ark, or anything else?
if you don't want to find God, then you won't. If you want to find God then you will, the point is whether or not YOU want to find God.

Even Saul Found God. granted he was orginally persecuting Him, but he still found Him.

Or, rather, explain away those little inconveniances by slapping "God" on them.

or to have God explain those little inconveniances.

Find God for God is lost

I read in the newspaper that god was last observed playing hopscotch with Elvis in Siena.
Maybe you should go looking for him there?

Well damn me Bottle!

Heh and to think I called you sensible yesterday. If you feel no need to find God, then don't, free will and all that. Meself I feel differantly, but do what ya want.
I don't seem to have phrased the OP clearly enough.

I'm sure most of you are very nice people who are more than willing to let me not find God if I don't want to. What I was asking was, is there any particular reason I might want to find God?

You say that you feel differently than I; in context, that appears to mean that you feel a need to find God. So what is it? Why do you need to find God?

Well damn me Bottle!

Heh and to think I called you sensible yesterday. If you feel no need to find God, then don't, free will and all that. Meself I feel differantly, but do what ya want.

That's no reason to not think Bottle sensible. :confused:

Well lets face it, God needs you.

He hasn't got any action since about 2000 years ago, and she was two timing with this dude called Joseph, and she produced a son who was a non conformist hippy.

:p

That's no reason to not think Bottle sensible. :confused:

Heh she offerd me out ya know when I did say that!

So what I would like to know is, why should I want to find God?

'Cuz God said so! ;)

I don't think he does, so that's why I search for transcendence in the physical universe and in the world of art. But I did believe for a long time. I was a fundamentalist christian until about 12 years ago, a Biblical literalist believe it or not. It's been a long road to get where I am today, that's for sure. ;)

in the supposition of god NOT existing, (a supposition i share), you are completely right and your kind of trancendance is more real and more honest than those who take similar experiences and put the false label of god onto them.


for people who believe in god, they want YOU to find god because they want you to have what they have. like when you go to a great little restaurant that none of your friends know about and you tell them they have to try it. youre only wrong when you keep insisting even after they tell you they arent interested.

were you out of college when you became a nonbeliever? was there something that happened to start you on your way?

if you don't want to find God, then you won't. If you want to find God then you will, the point is whether or not YOU want to find God.

Even Saul Found God. granted he was orginally persecuting Him, but he still found Him.
Maybe it's a quibble but Saul found Jesus. As a Jew, I'm sure he thought he already knew God. Actually, it's more that Jesus found Saul on the road to Damascus rather than the other way around.

I read in the newspaper that god was last observed playing hopscotch with Elvis in Siena.
Maybe you should go looking for him there?
How about we go look in the spring? I imagine Siena's quite nice in the spring. Bring chocolate.

No, the point (in this thread) is whether or not there is any reason for me to want to find God.

Do you believe there is a reason or reasons why people might want to find God? If so, what are they?

If you had reasons for wanting to find God, what were they?

Hmm... I guess it's one of those things that people believe will make them happy.
Like, you know, my mom always firmly believed that if she had a husband, kids and a house, she would be happy. So after losing the bastard of a husband and never having been able to afford a house, she feels unhappy despite living what others might call a fullfilled life (3 kids that turned out ok, lovely apartment, good job and career, friends...)
In the same way I guess there are people who believe that finding god will make them happy, which turns the whole search into a form of self-fullfilling prophecy : You believe you'll be happy when you find god, so when you think you found it you are happy.
Human minds are curious that way ;)

How about we go look in the spring? I imagine Siena's quite nice in the spring. Bring chocolate.

July or August (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palio_di_Siena) is the time to be there :D

Hmm... I guess it's one of those things that people believe will make them happy.
Like, you know, my mom always firmly believed that if she had a husband, kids and a house, she would be happy. So after losing the bastard of a husband and never having been able to afford a house, she feels unhappy despite living what others might call a fullfilled life (3 kids that turned out ok, lovely apartment, good job and career, friends...)
In the same way I guess there are people who believe that finding god will make them happy, which turns the whole search into a form of self-fullfilling prophecy : You believe you'll be happy when you find god, so when you think you found it you are happy.
Human minds are curious that way ;)
Ok, we're getting closer. So, at least for some people, finding God is desirable because it will make you happy (at least in theory).

How?

Your mother believed she'd be happy if she had a husband, kids, and a house. Well, why would she be happy if she had those things? She'd probably be happy to have a mate because humans usually desire some kind of companionship of that nature. She might also desire the material benefits of having somebody else working or helping to care for her in some way. She'd probably desire to reproduce because many humans enjoy having babies, rearing children, passing on their genetic material and/or their personal life values, etc etc. She'd probably desire a house because humans are comfortable when we can have our own "nests" that we arrange to our liking. She might also desire any and all of these things because of the social acceptance factor.

So what will God do for me? Is God supposed to be like a mate, in that He will provide me with companionship? Will finding God provide me with material comforts, such as shelter or clothing or food?

This is all speculative, of course, I'm just trying to understand what people BELIEVE about finding God. In other words, in what way do they believe that finding God will cause them to become happier?

Thats really quite nasty you know?:)

What is, being a little condescending about believers? When they stop being condescending and pitying towards me, I'll stop, too. Not that I'm constantly in a running argument with people who believe in God, mind you.

http://edkrebs.com/herb/petoons24/atheistdevilscolor.jpg

Ok, we're getting closer. So, at least for some people, finding God is desirable because it will make you happy (at least in theory).

How?

Your mother believed she'd be happy if she had a husband, kids, and a house. Well, why would she be happy if she had those things? She'd probably be happy to have a mate because humans usually desire some kind of companionship of that nature. She'd probably desire to reproduce because many humans enjoy having babies, rearing children, passing on their genetic material and/or their personal life values, etc etc. She'd probably desire a house because humans are comfortable when we can have our own "nests" that we arrange to our liking. She might also desire any and all of these things because of the social acceptance factor.

So what will God do for me? Is God supposed to be like a mate, in that He will provide me with companionship? Will finding God provide me with material comforts, such as shelter or clothing or food?

This is all speculative, of course, I'm just trying to understand what people BELIEVE about finding God. In other words, in what way do they believe that finding God will cause them to become happier?


I was talking to one of my little brothers the other day about the differances between us. I think a lot, and philosophise, whilst he is just happy getting on with life. I am religous he is not.

The real question is why do people think differantly. Why are some socialist, and some capatalist, why are some pro war and some anti war, why are some religous and some not?

I guess it's a whole slew of things all melded together. Why do some serch and why do some not? I don't bleedin know and I guess we will never know, but heh don't diffrances cause us all some fun huh!

Honestly, I think what people are really suggesting you find is "something bigger than yourself, which is good and meaningful and nice stuff like that." For some people, that big, meaningful thingummy is called "God." Other people call it "art," or "family," or "making a difference," or "helping others," or all sorts of other things. I don't think there's any particular reason to go looking for something which you can call by one of those names instead of another, but I can certainly see the merit in finding meaning and transcendence in your life in whatever way appeals to you.
Ok. So. Then my next question is:

What if I don't feel any desire for "something bigger than myself"?

Am I supposed to need "something bigger than myself" for any particular reason? What purpose would this "something bigger" serve?

Honestly, I think what people are really suggesting you find is "something bigger than yourself, which is good and meaningful and nice stuff like that." For some people, that big, meaningful thingummy is called "God." Other people call it "art," or "family," or "making a difference," or "helping others," or all sorts of other things. I don't think there's any particular reason to go looking for something which you can call by one of those names instead of another, but I can certainly see the merit in finding meaning and transcendence in your life in whatever way appeals to you.

What is, being a little condescending about believers? When they stop being condescending and pitying towards me, I'll stop, too. Not that I'm constantly in a running argument with people who believe in God, mind you.

Since when is it justified to make sweeping generalizations to a large portion of the population, only in retaliation to a few fundies that wound you up.

Maybe it's a quibble but Saul found Jesus. As a Jew, I'm sure he thought he already knew God. Actually, it's more that Jesus found Saul on the road to Damascus rather than the other way around.and wasn't saul "Looking" for Jesus and his followers? after all, he was there at the stoning of John the Baptist.

How about we go look in the spring? I imagine Siena's quite nice in the spring. Bring chocolate.
ROAD TRIP!!!!

Since when is it justified to make sweeping generalizations to a large portion of the population, only in retaliation to a few fundies that wound you up.

On NSG? Come on, sweeping generalizations are a way of life around here. And I'm hardly the worst offender.

On NSG? Come on, sweeping generalizations are a way of life around here. And I'm hardly the worst offender.

Yeah you're probably right.

and wasn't saul "Looking" for Jesus and his followers? after all, he was there at the stoning of John the Baptist.


huh? wasnt john the baptist beheaded?

what part of the bible is this in?


and more to the point

where is siena and why would elvis be there?

and wasn't saul "Looking" for Jesus and his followers? after all, he was there at the stoning of John the Baptist.


ROAD TRIP!!!!

Oh, he was looking for the followers of Jesus, that's for sure, but only to round them up. And I think it was the stoning of Saint James, not the Baptist (he was dead already and he was decapitated).

Yeah, road trip!

I'm not going to try to say you need to find God, but I will tell you this; you won't find God in any Church or book.

you're wrong. i found god in a book...well, not the actually god, but the word god to be fair...does that count?



i suggest instead of trying to find god, you invent your own, it's much easier and more fun. my god is a worm.

huh? wasnt john the baptist beheaded?

what part of the bible is this in?


and more to the point

where is siena and why would elvis be there?

Oh, he was looking for the followers of Jesus, that's for sure, but only to round them up. And I think it was the stoning of Saint James, not the Baptist (he was dead already and he was decapitated).

Yeah, road trip!My mistake, I'm at work and can't readily confirm my arguments at this time. :p

in the supposition of god NOT existing, (a supposition i share), you are completely right and your kind of trancendance is more real and more honest than those who take similar experiences and put the false label of god onto them.


for people who believe in god, they want YOU to find god because they want you to have what they have. like when you go to a great little restaurant that none of your friends know about and you tell them they have to try it. youre only wrong when you keep insisting even after they tell you they arent interested.

were you out of college when you became a nonbeliever? was there something that happened to start you on your way?

I was having doubts before I started college, but it was a Zoology class that really did me in. The whole thing about being a fundamentalist is that everything fits together with a queer sort of logic as long as the basis of it all is that the Bible is infallible. But break that basis and suddenly everything is questionable. Even so, it took a long time to get me to where I am today, which is a full-blown atheist and mocker of people who believe in the infallibility of the Bible.

and wasn't saul "Looking" for Jesus and his followers? after all, he was there at the stoning of John the Baptist.


ROAD TRIP!!!!

huh? wasnt john the baptist beheaded?

what part of the bible is this in?


It was Stephen who was stoned by Saul of Tarsus. John the Baptist was beheaded at the request of Salome, so the legend goes.

It was Stephen who was stoned by Saul of Tarsus. John the Baptist was beheaded at the request of Salome, so the legend goes.

who was the one who ended up pierced by all the arrows?

different stephen?

You should find God because apparently you're incapable of being happy on your own. Yes, all those people who urge you to do that have actually been insulting you and questioning your independence and self-sufficiency. :p [/inflammatory]

Well lets face it, God needs you.

He hasn't got any action since about 2000 years ago, and she was two timing with this dude called Joseph, and she produced a son who was a non conformist hippy.

Considering that He's regularly fellated by legions of fundies, He shouldn't be complaining. :p

I was having doubts before I started college, but it was a Zoology class that really did me in. The whole thing about being a fundamentalist is that everything fits together with a queer sort of logic as long as the basis of it all is that the Bible is infallible. But break that basis and suddenly everything is questionable. Even so, it took a long time to get me to where I am today, which is a full-blown atheist and mocker of people who believe in the infallibility of the Bible.

it always amazes me when fundamentalists move away from it.

my sister in law used to be so strict that no female in her family ever wore pants no matter how useful that would have been. to see her now wear shorts always startles me.

it always amazes me when fundamentalists move away from it.

my sister in law used to be so strict that no female in her family ever wore pants no matter how useful that would have been. to see her now wear shorts always startles me.

And when they do walk away, it's usually a long walk because it feels like a massive breach of trust, and when you've put that level of faith and trust in something only to have it be based on air, that's a betrayal that's hard to overcome.

To be sure, to be sure....

Fiddle dee dee, potatoes!

In another current thread, somebody posted the following:
(Bold mine)

This post was not directed at me, but it was a recent example of something I've encountered a lot, both here and in the real world: people suggesting that if I keep trying I will find God eventually.

So what I would like to know is, why should I want to find God?

Because I'm gonna be honest here, I don't really feel any interest in finding God or gods. I mean, it might be kind of fun to meet God or whatever, but it's mostly just my general curiosity and isn't particularly high on my list of priorities.

Am I supposed to want to find God out of purely academic interest? Like, should I just want to find God so that I know it exists?

Am I supposed to have some need or want that can be satisfied by God? If so, what might that be? Is God the only (or best) source for fulfillment of this need/want?

Or is the desire to find God motivated solely by the desire to escape a punishment or obtain a reward?

Basically, why should I choose to spend any particular hour praying and trying to find God, when that hour could be spent eating a nice meal, or playing a game, or earning some money, or riding a bike, or having sex, or juggling flaming torches, or yelling at my TV set, or wrestling a bear (a small one), or building an ark, or anything else?

What happened to finding God just for the fun of it? I mean, do you go and ask little kids why they are playing hide-and-seek? Do you really have to leech all the enjoyment out of the game? Jesus Christ ... it can really be fun, you know, if you just try it. God always picks someplace really challenging, like between the carpet and the hardwood, or under the lip of the toilet bowl. I never look there.

Ok. So. Then my next question is:

What if I don't feel any desire for "something bigger than myself"?

Am I supposed to need "something bigger than myself" for any particular reason? What purpose would this "something bigger" serve?

Because there is nothing else worth doing in the world. Not wisdom nor power, not pleasure nor pain, not riches nor poverty, ALL things outside of God are nothing more than a ripple in the sea, a vapor in the wind, fleeting spats of meaninglessness. Everything about ourselves is vanity, we live and die and are buried, and then forgotten. And the world goes on.

Why not seek God? There is nothing better to be doing. There is no knowledge, no wisdom, no Self-Indulgence that is enduring. We come from dust, we will become dust again. There is no other thing than to eat, drink and be merry, and Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. Everything else is meaningless, and if you think it has meaning, then you suffer vanity.

Ecclesiastes is the book for you…
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=25&version=47
Read it.

Because there is nothing else worth doing in the world. Not wisdom nor power, not pleasure nor pain, not riches nor poverty, ALL things outside of God are nothing more than a ripple in the sea, a vapor in the wind, fleeting spats of meaninglessness. Everything about ourselves is vanity, we live and die and are buried, and then forgotten. And the world goes on.

I dunno, the earthly "vanities" can be pretty fulfilling. Like knowledge for instance. Or power. Or sex. Or art. I don't really see the need to find a God to fulfill my life, because the way it -is- fulfilled is through earthly matters and material things. By material things I don't necessarily mean clothes and possessions and other useless trinkets. I mean all the things in the universe that have a physical basis. That means things like love, nature, and poetry still count as material (you can actually "see" love with MRIs, anyway). God on the other hand, there's never been any real evidence for, so if there is a God She's staying pretty well hidden, and unless She shows Herself and proves that following Her will be far more satisfactory than pursuing the worthwhile things I've chosen to pursue, I'll stick to what I have, thanks.

In another current thread, somebody posted the following:
(Bold mine)

This post was not directed at me, but it was a recent example of something I've encountered a lot, both here and in the real world: people suggesting that if I keep trying I will find God eventually.

So what I would like to know is, why should I want to find God?

Because I'm gonna be honest here, I don't really feel any interest in finding God or gods. I mean, it might be kind of fun to meet God or whatever, but it's mostly just my general curiosity and isn't particularly high on my list of priorities.

Am I supposed to want to find God out of purely academic interest? Like, should I just want to find God so that I know it exists?

Am I supposed to have some need or want that can be satisfied by God? If so, what might that be? Is God the only (or best) source for fulfillment of this need/want?

Or is the desire to find God motivated solely by the desire to escape a punishment or obtain a reward?

Basically, why should I choose to spend any particular hour praying and trying to find God, when that hour could be spent eating a nice meal, or playing a game, or earning some money, or riding a bike, or having sex, or juggling flaming torches, or yelling at my TV set, or wrestling a bear (a small one), or building an ark, or anything else?

I can't answer for others, but I don't suggest you find God at all. I don't think it works that way. We can't make ourselves believe and I don't buy into the whole believe or you burn in Hell philosophy as it ignores the basic flaws of both human nature and the idea of faith.

I think something we can both accept is that there is a value to the wisdom of not pretending to have knowledge we don't have and can't have. I don't know that God exists. I don't know what God wants. I do have faith that God exists. I do have faith that God wants us to love Him and each other.

Knowledge you can search for and find, but faith is born of an acceptance of what we don't know and an acceptance of the value of what we feel. I would never ask anyone to search for God.

You can't find God anymore than you can find Atheism. It simply doesn't work that way.

I would only tell people what I often tell Gravy, keep an open mind. Most Atheists don't actually have any real idea about the existence of God. What they have a feeling about is that the nonsensical God that some fundamentalists preach doesn't exist? That says nothing about the existence of the God who gave us both reason and a world to apply it to.

Because there is nothing else worth doing in the world. Not wisdom nor power, not pleasure nor pain, not riches nor poverty, ALL things outside of God are nothing more than a ripple in the sea, a vapor in the wind, fleeting spats of meaninglessness. Everything about ourselves is vanity, we live and die and are buried, and then forgotten. And the world goes on.

Why not seek God? There is nothing better to be doing. There is no knowledge, no wisdom, no Self-Indulgence that is enduring. We come from dust, we will become dust again. There is no other thing than to eat, drink and be merry, and Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. Everything else is meaningless, and if you think it has meaning, then you suffer vanity.

Ecclesiastes is the book for you…
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=25&version=47
Read it.

Why bother with meaning? Just enjoy the ride.

Am I supposed to have some need or want that can be satisfied by God? If so, what might that be? Is God the only (or best) source for fulfillment of this need/want?

This want or need theory is the one I've seen advanced most often in modern theistic contexts, sometimes coupled with the idea that God is the best (rather than the only) source of fulfillment.

On a more personal note, I think you're much closer to finding God than many of those who think they've already found God.

Ok. So. Then my next question is:

What if I don't feel any desire for "something bigger than myself"?

Am I supposed to need "something bigger than myself" for any particular reason? What purpose would this "something bigger" serve?

Wisdom is its own reward.

There's a show called Monastary that was on Discovery not too long ago that I really enjoyed. It was about a bunch of varied people who came to stay with Gregorian monks for a month or so. Some were Christians, some not, but all were very affected by the experience. You should check it out if you can find it.

You ask Christians what they believe and you will get a different answer for every person you ask. Am I right? Are others who claim the opposite right? Who cares? Don't listen to Christians. They're just people.

I can give you one simple message offered by the subject of the faith that we Christians adhere to.

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

People who wish to subject you to their will will tell you other things, but Jesus was asked twice about this and gave similar answers both times (though the second time he didn't even mention God). Now, perhaps you might argue the value of the first, but certainly the second has a clear value. I would argue that from the second we find the first, but that's simply my belief.

Don't listen to those who claim that God wants you to judge others. Don't listen to those who claim God needs you to serve Him. It's not supported by scripture and it certainly is not something that's even remotely universal to the faith. Be a loving person and keep an open mind and heart and the way you'll find is exactly the way God intended for you.

Wisdom is its own reward.

There's a show called Monastary that was on Discovery not too long ago that I really enjoyed. It was about a bunch of varied people who came to stay with Gregorian monks for a month or so. Some were Christians, some not, but all were very affected by the experience. You should check it out if you can find it.

You ask Christians what they believe and you will get a different answer for every person you ask. Am I right? Are others who claim the opposite right? Who cares? Don't listen to Christians. They're just people.

I can give you one simple message offered by the subject of the faith that we Christians adhere to.

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

People who wish to subject you to their will will tell you other things, but Jesus was asked twice about this and gave similar answers both times (though the second time he didn't even mention God). Now, perhaps you might argue the value of the first, but certainly the second has a clear value. I would argue that from the second we find the first, but that's simply my belief.
That bolded part is awfully arrogant, because it hints that wisdom can only be found by finding God, and that's beyond ridiculous. You can try to make a positive case for religion, but to say that finding God equals becoming wise? I don't think so.

Ok. So. Then my next question is:

What if I don't feel any desire for "something bigger than myself"?

Am I supposed to need "something bigger than myself" for any particular reason? What purpose would this "something bigger" serve?
Wow, such iron-rod rationalism makes debate so appealing doesn't it.

That bolded part is awfully arrogant, because it hints that wisdom can only be found by finding God, and that's beyond ridiculous. You can try to make a positive case for religion, but to say that finding God equals becoming wise? I don't think so.

No, it doesn't make that claim at all. Only that accepting God is A wisdom and that in being so it is rewarding. I didn't claim that it is the only wisdom or that it's the only reward.

If you'd ask me why you should give to the American Heart Association and I said "Charity is its own reward" would you claim that I was say the AHA is the only charity? Perhaps you read arrogance because you wanted it to be there.

No, it doesn't make that claim at all. Only that accepting God is A wisdom and that in being so it is rewarding. I didn't claim that it is the only wisdom or that it's the only reward.

If you'd ask me why you should give to the American Heart Association and I said "Charity is its own reward" would you claim that I was say the AHA is the only charity? Perhaps you read arrogance because you wanted it to be there.

Dear, I'm not reading too much into it when you begin a post with "wisdom is its own reward" and then you wax rhapsodic about scripture and christians for four paragraphs, and you never once mentioned any other possibilities. That may not be how you meant it, but that's how it came off. Perhaps you don't see it because you suffer from the arrogance of believing that you have the wisdom as opposed to a wisdom. That's at the heart of all christianity, after all.

Dear, I'm not reading too much into it when you begin a post with "wisdom is its own reward" and then you wax rhapsodic about scripture and christians for four paragraphs, and you never once mentioned any other possibilities. That may not be how you meant it, but that's how it came off. Perhaps you don't see it because you suffer from the arrogance of believing that you have the wisdom as opposed to a wisdom. That's at the heart of all christianity, after all.

Gee, it's almost like we're talking about finding God in this thread. Hmmmm...

I'm sorry if you don't care to read what's written. In a thread about God, forgive me for talking about God. Next time, I'll talk about the value of pursuing education. It'll have no value in the thread, but, hey, you'll feel better.

I love that I specifically said that I don't believe its THE wisdom. I love that you call me arrogant while claiming to know not only what I believe, but what ALL christians believe. How not arrogant of you.

Perhaps, you should try to talk to me like I'm an individual and not part some mindless mass of "all Christianity". Or would you prefer that we all treat people by stereotyping them and denying their individuality?

Gee, it's almost like we're talking about finding God in this thread. Hmmmm...
Except we're not. We're talking about why someone should want to find God. There's a significant difference in the two, and I wonder why you don't see that.

That bolded part is awfully arrogant, because it hints that wisdom can only be found by finding God, and that's beyond ridiculous. You can try to make a positive case for religion, but to say that finding God equals becoming wise? I don't think so.

Why, when quoting this post, did you leave out this part:


Don't listen to those who claim that God wants you to judge others. Don't listen to those who claim God needs you to serve Him. It's not supported by scripture and it certainly is not something that's even remotely universal to the faith. Be a loving person and keep an open mind and heart and the way you'll find is exactly the way God intended for you.

???

The wisdom comment might sound arrogant, if it weren't for this last paragraph, which suggests that anyone - atheist/Christian/Muslim/etc. who is a loving person with an open mind and heart is essentially doing the "wise" thing.

Jocabia certainly can come off as arrogant at times (no offense, Joc, you know I love ya!), but I don't think this is one of those times.

Except we're not. We're talking about why someone should want to find God. There's a significant difference in the two, and I wonder why you don't see that.

Okay. Since you want to be pedantic, let's assume that in this instance that makes a difference. How does that affect whether or not I should be talking about other wisdoms that have nothing to do with why one should find God?

What possible value could I add to the question by suggesting that one gain wisdom through raising children or some other avenue?

Some people have a void in their life that needs filling. Some people fill it with religion, others with doing humanitarian work, others by filling it up with big-screen TVs and flashy cars and Botox. I, myself, am an agnostic, but my whole life I've been surrounded by devoutly religious people. Whatever makes you content and happy is fine.

As long as it doesn't involve hurting someone else.

Amen, Bottle. Amen.

You know, I take it those were actual, not rhetorical questions.

Am I interpreting something dreadfully wrong?

I didn't cut anything from the post I replied to. Now it's possible that Jocabia added that and we crossed posts over it, but I didn't cut anything. What I replied to was what was there at the time I hit the reply button.

I was adding it as you replied. However, even without that statement, it says nothing about it being THE wisdom. The only arrogance that can be found is the arrogance you read into the statement.

Again, if I say that "charity is its own reward" when suggesting someone donate to the American Heart Association, am I claiming that AHA is the ONLY charity? Would you even attempt to read that into my statement?

And if someone asked me why they should donate to the AHA, you might find the rest of my post talking about why the AHA. I'm funny that way.

Why, when quoting this post, did you leave out this part:



???

The wisdom comment might sound arrogant, if it weren't for this last paragraph, which suggests that anyone - atheist/Christian/Muslim/etc. who is a loving person with an open mind and heart is essentially doing the "wise" thing.

Jocabia certainly can come off as arrogant at times (no offense, Joc, you know I love ya!), but I don't think this is one of those times.
I didn't cut anything from the post I replied to. Now it's possible that Jocabia added that and we crossed posts over it, but I didn't cut anything. What I replied to was what was there at the time I hit the reply button.

In another current thread, somebody posted the following:
(Bold mine)

This post was not directed at me, but it was a recent example of something I've encountered a lot, both here and in the real world: people suggesting that if I keep trying I will find God eventually.

So what I would like to know is, why should I want to find God?

Because I'm gonna be honest here, I don't really feel any interest in finding God or gods. I mean, it might be kind of fun to meet God or whatever, but it's mostly just my general curiosity and isn't particularly high on my list of priorities.

Am I supposed to want to find God out of purely academic interest? Like, should I just want to find God so that I know it exists?

Am I supposed to have some need or want that can be satisfied by God? If so, what might that be? Is God the only (or best) source for fulfillment of this need/want?

Or is the desire to find God motivated solely by the desire to escape a punishment or obtain a reward?

Basically, why should I choose to spend any particular hour praying and trying to find God, when that hour could be spent eating a nice meal, or playing a game, or earning some money, or riding a bike, or having sex, or juggling flaming torches, or yelling at my TV set, or wrestling a bear (a small one), or building an ark, or anything else?

Amen, Bottle. Amen.

Why, when quoting this post, did you leave out this part:



???

The wisdom comment might sound arrogant, if it weren't for this last paragraph, which suggests that anyone - atheist/Christian/Muslim/etc. who is a loving person with an open mind and heart is essentially doing the "wise" thing.

Jocabia certainly can come off as arrogant at times (no offense, Joc, you know I love ya!), but I don't think this is one of those times.


The Nazz already said what I have to answer for. I have to answer for what s/he says I believe, not what I say I believe.
No, it doesn't make that claim at all. Only that accepting God is A wisdom and that in being so it is rewarding. I didn't claim that it is the only wisdom or that it's the only reward.
Perhaps you don't see it because you suffer from the arrogance of believing that you have the wisdom as opposed to a wisdom. That's at the heart of all christianity, after all.

It's not hard to see how is making an error when they choose to paint you with a broad brush rather than as an individual. I wonder what all heterogenous group I must answer for, that contains multitudes of people I don't agree with, simply because I happen to share a trait with them.

I didn't cut anything from the post I replied to. Now it's possible that Jocabia added that and we crossed posts over it, but I didn't cut anything. What I replied to was what was there at the time I hit the reply button.

Ah. Then it would appear that he has already clarified the gist of his statement.

=)

Okay. Since you want to be pedantic, let's assume that in this instance that makes a difference. How does that affect whether or not I should be talking about other wisdoms that have nothing to do with why one should find God?

What possible value could I add to the question by suggesting that one gain wisdom through raising children or some other avenue?

At the very least you would have been acknowledging that there are other avenues by which one can approach wisdom. And it does make a difference, because Bottle's thread title and opening post posits the idea that she doesn't feel she needs to find god, but that other people seem to think she does. Asking why that is the assumption is certainly different from saying that "we're talking about god." We're not--we're taking about the necessity (or lack thereof) of finding or believing in one.

At the very least you would have been acknowledging that there are other avenues by which one can approach wisdom. And it does make a difference, because Bottle's thread title and opening post posits the idea that she doesn't feel she needs to find god, but that other people seem to think she does. Asking why that is the assumption is certainly different from saying that "we're talking about god." We're not--we're taking about the necessity (or lack thereof) of finding or believing in one.

Nice misquote. I believe what I said was "Gee, it's almost like we're talking about finding God in this thread. Hmmmm..."

And I gave an answer that suggested that the value of belief is that wisdom is its own reward. I suggests its A wisdom. If you'd like to claim I stated that its THE wisdom, please use the quote function. If you'd like to claim I'd implied that there are no others, find me saying anything that suggests such a thing. If you're argument is that I was supposed to post off-topic just so you wouldn't decide to paint me with a broad brush because you've decided what ALL Christians believe, well, I'm not here to appease you or to deal with your varied prejudices.

At the very least you would have been acknowledging that there are other avenues by which one can approach wisdom. And it does make a difference, because Bottle's thread title and opening post posits the idea that she doesn't feel she needs to find god, but that other people seem to think she does. Asking why that is the assumption is certainly different from saying that "we're talking about god." We're not--we're taking about the necessity (or lack thereof) of finding or believing in one.

To me, it just looks like you're trying to pick a fight. Of course, that's what everyone does on NSG, but can't we once have a discussion that doesn't descend into "OMG, YOU'RE OPINIONS ARE STUPID. IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH MY OPINION, YOU'RE A RETARD!"

Cause he's in your house, takin' your shit.

This post was not directed at me, but it was a recent example of something I've encountered a lot, both here and in the real world: people suggesting that if I keep trying I will find God eventually.
bolding mine

Sounds like many people figure you to be in conflict with the spiritual principles of the universe?

After reading many of your posts, I would tend to agree with their assessment. :D

Bottle God watches you when you have sex. I'm sure the friendly, helpful people just wants you to find it, so they can throw it's ass in jail ;)Sounds like many people figure you to be in conflict with the spiritual principles of the universe?The what?

I thought the whole idea with this unnatural shite was that it's unnatural.. So how can it involve 'principles of the universe'?

Arh screw it, just please explain what it means. I'm mystified & dead curious.

Am I supposed to have some need or want that can be satisfied by God? If so, what might that be? Is God the only (or best) source for fulfillment of this need/want?

...

I didn't even have to try to point out the sexual implications in this one.

If I tirelessly study the floorboards, it is very likely that I could eventually find the Virgin Mary.

...

I didn't even have to try to point out the sexual implications in this one.Great... Now I have a damn Madonna song stuck in my head. I hate you.

I figure God is a lot better at finding things than I am and if he wants me, he knows where I am.

In another current thread, somebody posted the following:
(Bold mine)

This post was not directed at me, but it was a recent example of something I've encountered a lot, both here and in the real world: people suggesting that if I keep trying I will find God eventually.

So what I would like to know is, why should I want to find God?

Because I'm gonna be honest here, I don't really feel any interest in finding God or gods. I mean, it might be kind of fun to meet God or whatever, but it's mostly just my general curiosity and isn't particularly high on my list of priorities.

Am I supposed to want to find God out of purely academic interest? Like, should I just want to find God so that I know it exists?

Am I supposed to have some need or want that can be satisfied by God? If so, what might that be? Is God the only (or best) source for fulfillment of this need/want?

Or is the desire to find God motivated solely by the desire to escape a punishment or obtain a reward?

Basically, why should I choose to spend any particular hour praying and trying to find God, when that hour could be spent eating a nice meal, or playing a game, or earning some money, or riding a bike, or having sex, or juggling flaming torches, or yelling at my TV set, or wrestling a bear (a small one), or building an ark, or anything else?

Oh come on Bottle, you ebil atheist! Who wouldn't want to find some abusive jerk of a deity who created you and holds Its "prize" of "holiness" and "salvation" and "love" and "eternal peace" and regularly sends Its dumbest followers to intrude upon your business and condemn you to the fiery pits of Hell whilst happily ignoring their own holy text?

**note: I have no problems with Christians, just the ones who pressure you. To anyone who may have been offended... don't be. :fluffle:

Great... Now I have a damn Madonna song stuck in my head. I hate you.

I know how you feel.

I know how you feel.

I have a Gwen Stefani song stuck in my head.

:(

I have a Gwen Stefani song stuck in my head.

:(

I have AC/DC stuck in my head.

Congratulations, Bottle. You seem to have attained a higher understanding than most - the understanding that there is no actual need for such. Ironical, is it not? Though I don't know if that understanding of yours goes all the way, or just part of the way. You might for all I know simply have replaced "god" with something else.

Going by my own philosophy:

Apart from physical neccessities, there is no actual need for anything outside of yourself, unless you are lacking something. Many do lack something - a deep enough understanding of themselves - and find that they are somehow 'incomplete' by themselves, in need of something external. And their duct-tape laden solution is typically to seek something they find "greater" than themselves. For many, this is "god" in one form or another, for most others, whatever else they feel is a worthy cause to elevate to an importance beyond themselves. In many cases, multiple things are used as part of the solution.

This solution, used by very, very many, is a half-arsed one. It still leaves you "incomplete", and you become needlessly dependant on unneccessary things. Not to mention the sheer silliness of deluding yourself into thinking that whatever the chosen thing(s) is/are is somehow of greater importance than yourself. And as for yourself, in the end, you are without meaning; the only meaning "you" truly have is that which "you" hold to yourself.

Once you get to know yourself well enough, you need neither company nor external purpose to keep your silly life as a silly blob of meat going well. You have yourself, the central point of your existence.

Now, keep doing whatever you find meaningful, and try to enjoy yourself; it's the constructive thing to do. But remember that nothing truly matters, in the end, and that of that which matters now, nothing has any lasting meaning, nor any lasting value. Though, if you are that kind of person (I make no assumption), I guess you could just as well go ahead and delude yourself into thinking that something has "true purpose" if you'd like. It won't matter, in the end. Though it is hardly productive to let your mind turn into a buggy piece of garbage - if you are one of the few that, like me, truly desire rationality, I wish you well in sorting out the bloody mess that is a human mind. I have only begun, but I'd say I am making plenty of progress.

I wanna find God. I had the little bastard for a while, but then he slipped out of the chains.

Look at me! I'm STILL an atheist!

Look at me! I'm STILL an atheist!

I DENY YOU! I DENY YOU!


*Sweeps you under the carpet*

Bottle God watches you when you have sex. I'm sure the friendly, helpful people just wants you to find it, so they can throw it's ass in jail ;)The what?

I thought the whole idea with this unnatural shite was that it's unnatural.. So how can it involve 'principles of the universe'?

Arh screw it, just please explain what it means. I'm mystified & dead curious.
What "unnatural shite"?

Spiritual principles of the universe. The common bond amongst our souls that propel us forward. What is "unnatural" is to think that we all came from nothing and aimlessly go nowhere for no purpose.

In another current thread, somebody posted the following:
(Bold mine)

This post was not directed at me, but it was a recent example of something I've encountered a lot, both here and in the real world: people suggesting that if I keep trying I will find God eventually.

So what I would like to know is, why should I want to find God?

Because I'm gonna be honest here, I don't really feel any interest in finding God or gods. I mean, it might be kind of fun to meet God or whatever, but it's mostly just my general curiosity and isn't particularly high on my list of priorities.

Am I supposed to want to find God out of purely academic interest? Like, should I just want to find God so that I know it exists?

Am I supposed to have some need or want that can be satisfied by God? If so, what might that be? Is God the only (or best) source for fulfillment of this need/want?

Or is the desire to find God motivated solely by the desire to escape a punishment or obtain a reward?

Basically, why should I choose to spend any particular hour praying and trying to find God, when that hour could be spent eating a nice meal, or playing a game, or earning some money, or riding a bike, or having sex, or juggling flaming torches, or yelling at my TV set, or wrestling a bear (a small one), or building an ark, or anything else?

Because there's a $1,000,000,000,000 reward?

Going by my own philosophy:


Once you get to know yourself well enough, you need neither company nor external purpose to keep your silly life as a silly blob of meat going well. You have yourself, the central point of your existence.
I guess "silly" is the word for the day? :p

I lost God a long time ago.

He said I was too smart for my own good.

What "unnatural shite"?alcohol-less spirit..

Spiritual principles of the universe. The common bond amongst our souls that propel us forward. What is "unnatural" is to think that we all came from nothing and aimlessly go nowhere for no purpose.For the purpose of this discussion, you better treat me like an infant. I don't know what soul is. I don't know what spirit is. I know where I came from, but not where everything else came from. I don't see the point of inventing an explanation, if it's no more accurate or true than simply saying "I don't know", and if my understanding that "spirit". "soul" and the like, are extra-natural, then I don't understand what they have to do with the universe, or any particular part of it (like us).

So again, I'm curious & mystified, and I'd love some sort of explanation. But it'll have to actually explain stuff ;)

I have AC/DC stuck in my head.
I’ve had “Arms Wide Open” by Creed stuck in my head for three days.

I don't know what soul is.

This (http://youtube.com/watch?v=GVTN5o9Kgu8) is soul. :D

I’ve had “Arms Wide Open” by Creed stuck in my head for three days.

Now I have nothing in my head.

:(

if anyone here does find god, give him a kick in the nuts from me will you, preferably in a crowded public place. anyone with that big an ego needs some serious humiliation.

This (http://youtube.com/watch?v=GVTN5o9Kgu8) is soul. :DAh, so it's a synonym for annoying?

I'm guessing this (http://www.dailystar.com.lb/admin/storage/articles/20062212154490.8%20beer.JPG) is spirit then.. But that doesn't really explain what the universal-principle-bond-thing is.

I don't know about God, but I found Jesus. But then INS came and deported him back to Tijijuana.

In another current thread, somebody posted the following:
(Bold mine)

This post was not directed at me, but it was a recent example of something I've encountered a lot, both here and in the real world: people suggesting that if I keep trying I will find God eventually.

So what I would like to know is, why should I want to find God?

Because I'm gonna be honest here, I don't really feel any interest in finding God or gods. I mean, it might be kind of fun to meet God or whatever, but it's mostly just my general curiosity and isn't particularly high on my list of priorities.

Am I supposed to want to find God out of purely academic interest? Like, should I just want to find God so that I know it exists?

Am I supposed to have some need or want that can be satisfied by God? If so, what might that be? Is God the only (or best) source for fulfillment of this need/want?

Or is the desire to find God motivated solely by the desire to escape a punishment or obtain a reward?

Basically, why should I choose to spend any particular hour praying and trying to find God, when that hour could be spent eating a nice meal, or playing a game, or earning some money, or riding a bike, or having sex, or juggling flaming torches, or yelling at my TV set, or wrestling a bear (a small one), or building an ark, or anything else?

If you find God you get a coupon for a free Cheeseburger when you buy a Big Mac as Maccas.

alcohol-less spirit..

For the purpose of this discussion, you better treat me like an infant. I don't know what soul is. I don't know what spirit is. I know where I came from, but not where everything else came from. I don't see the point of inventing an explanation, if it's no more accurate or true than simply saying "I don't know", and if my understanding that "spirit". "soul" and the like, are extra-natural, then I don't understand what they have to do with the universe, or any particular part of it (like us).

So again, I'm curious & mystified, and I'd love some sort of explanation. But it'll have to actually explain stuff ;)
For the purpose of this discussion, it appears that you prefer to be naive and profess not to know what "spirit" and "soul" mean, and it appears that you prefer to stay quartered in your own self imposed box of space and time, hence there is very little reason to discuss with you the merits of "finding" God.

Well, I still have not understood what exactly people mean when they say soul and spirit, so it is a valid question. However I did find something like a coherent view on the world, which many people think only emerges when you put God at the loose ends. Still, I would prefer an explanation.

For the purpose of this discussion, it appears that you prefer to be naive and profess not to know what "spirit" and "soul" mean, and it appears that you prefer to stay quartered in your own self imposed box of space and time, hence there is very little reason to discuss with you the merits of "finding" God.Now that's just prejudiced :p

I could turn that around & proclaim that although I know fuck-all about you, Im somehow able to determine that you don't actually know what you're saying yourself, and thus invent excuses for not having to explain yourself. It'd be no different.

Instead though, I'd like to think you aren't just typing up random arrangements of words, but actually understand something I'm utterly ignorant of. I'd like to think the same about a number of people I know & care about, but when quizzed, they simply can't explain themselves. I was hoping maybe you could.

The reason I told you to explain it to me as you would to an infant, is exactly because you superstitious types generally assume I share in your special knowledge. I don't. I never have, and if none of you ever believe that, I never will. Don't worry, I'm not asking trick questions with a gleeful smile, just waiting to clubber you senseless with some fantastic atheist bullshit. I'm honestly asking what the fuck you're talking about, because I honestly don't have a fucking clue - but I'd like to.

My search for God seems different to most, from what I've read. I'm looking for God with the explicit aim of finding out what God is, rather than trying to find a God to align myself with in the hopes of some direct gain.

Religion has always been and remains an immensely powerful force in human society. This power facinates me. It has been present in a great variety of social constructs, many of whom seem at best tenuously linked by the sheer size of their membership and their proscription of mutual exclusion while providing exactly the same effects. And since I trust religion not to be one great big conspiracy, I believe there to be some particular strength behind the ideas they propose.

I wish to locate the source of this power, whether it is a real external entity, an allegory for a greater truth, a myth passed on to explain the way things are or simply a lie spread by those who wish to keep themselves in control. I want to know why it affects people so much, to work out whether it is something that is worth keeping. If it is, I want to know how to best put it to use; if not, I want to know how to best deal with its removal and the process of repairing the damage it has done.

Maybe it's a futile quest. Maybe it is a selfish indulgence of my intellectual curiosity. Maybe I'm just looking for my own gratification, like a self-righteous knight in search of a legendary sword to better slay one's enemies and improve his own standing. But it's been one I feel I've learned from, and one that I hope has allowed me to be of help to others too.

If you find God he'll lead you to his pot of gold, provided you don't let him esscape.

That pretty much sums up my reason for wanting to find God. I wanted to understand the metaphor (so I could laugh at those who don't).

For the purpose of this discussion, it appears that you prefer to be naive and profess not to know what "spirit" and "soul" mean, and it appears that you prefer to stay quartered in your own self imposed box of space and time, hence there is very little reason to discuss with you the merits of "finding" God.

Wow. You sound just like Teal'c on Stargate SG-1.

Eh, maybe you'll obtain old car keys, TV remote controls and a large amount of loose change along the way?

Wow. You sound just like Teal'c on Stargate SG-1.
I forsee you shall do well here. Welcome.

What "unnatural shite"?

Spiritual principles of the universe. The common bond amongst our souls that propel us forward. What is "unnatural" is to think that we all came from nothing and aimlessly go nowhere for no purpose.
Really? There is no physical reason we have to have a purpose. In the world of matter and physicality, which is the only world we actually know exists, humanity has no purpose whatsoever except to continue its race (and most likely fill a niche by limiting the populations of its common prey cows, chickens, etc.; and providing bacteria food). Anything else we happen to do that may be pleasing to us, or may be works of great art or knowledge, is not actually our "purpose", just a pleasant distraction.

There is no such thing as a physical "soul", so therefore, for all intents and purposes, the soul doesn't exist. If you can explain how exactly you know about this aphysical world and are so certain it exists, please do.

For the purpose of this discussion, it appears that you prefer to be naive and profess not to know what "spirit" and "soul" mean, and it appears that you prefer to stay quartered in your own self imposed box of space and time, hence there is very little reason to discuss with you the merits of "finding" God.
Um. We don't have a "self imposed box" of space and time. Space and time, in anywhere between four and twenty-six dimensions (depending on the theory), is all we really have. You could actually explain something rather than resorting to circular reasoning ("if you don't already know, you'll never know.")

So what I would like to know is, why should I want to find God?

Because I'm gonna be honest here, I don't really feel any interest in finding God or gods. I mean, it might be kind of fun to meet God or whatever, but it's mostly just my general curiosity and isn't particularly high on my list of priorities.
There's no need to force anything; if you have a spiritual side it will manifest itself in your life.

There's no need to force anything; if you have a spiritual side it will manifest itself in your life.
Like that time I lost god. Didn't find him again until I stopped looking, then he went and turned up in the place I least expected it... in my mirror!

But seriously, if you want to find god, you will. If (like me) you don't, then you won't. If you're looking, then it's because you want to look. And if you're looking then you will find. If you're not looking then you're only "missing out" on something you don't want.

Now that's just prejudiced :p

I could turn that around & proclaim that although I know fuck-all about you, Im somehow able to determine that you don't actually know what you're saying yourself, and thus invent excuses for not having to explain yourself. It'd be no different.

Instead though, I'd like to think you aren't just typing up random arrangements of words, but actually understand something I'm utterly ignorant of. I'd like to think the same about a number of people I know & care about, but when quizzed, they simply can't explain themselves. I was hoping maybe you could.

The reason I told you to explain it to me as you would to an infant, is exactly because you superstitious types generally assume I share in your special knowledge. I don't. I never have, and if none of you ever believe that, I never will. Don't worry, I'm not asking trick questions with a gleeful smile, just waiting to clubber you senseless with some fantastic atheist bullshit. I'm honestly asking what the fuck you're talking about, because I honestly don't have a fucking clue - but I'd like to.
No prejudice at all old chum, but we have been down this road before and although you profess to be of open mind and willing to gain some "knowledge" in regards to the subject at hand, it would appear that that is not true.

You appear to take delight in mocking (http://forums3.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11046268&postcount=4225)those who have different values than yourself, when it comes to Godly matters.

What I find amusing are the posts from those that truly believe that their existence is finite. Why would those people waste their precious time debating the merits of finding a God that they believe to be non-existent?

No prejudice at all old chum, but we have been down this road before and although you profess to be of open mind and willing to gain some "knowledge" in regards to the subject at hand, it would appear that that is not true.

You appear to take delight in mocking (http://forums3.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11046268&postcount=4225)those who have different values than yourself, when it comes to Godly matters.

What I find amusing are the posts from those that truly believe that their existence is finite. Why would those people waste their precious time debating the merits of finding a God that they believe to be non-existent?Because folks wasting time and energy in god-seeking are the reason why our planet is on the edge of disaster.
If people were really looking for god they'd first study what folks in ancient times knew about god before the Jews came with their fabrication that has poisoned humankind ever since. If humankind wishes to survive it must first knock down synagogues, churches, and mosques and finally get the self-righteous teachings about the alleged god of Moses out of people's minds and memories. What we need is an age of enlightenment, where humans think with their own brains and not just repeat borrowed doctrines.

Really? There is no physical reason we have to have a purpose. In the world of matter and physicality, which is the only world we actually know exists, humanity has no purpose whatsoever except to continue its race (and most likely fill a niche by limiting the populations of its common prey cows, chickens, etc.; and providing bacteria food). Anything else we happen to do that may be pleasing to us, or may be works of great art or knowledge, is not actually our "purpose", just a pleasant distraction.

There is no such thing as a physical "soul", so therefore, for all intents and purposes, the soul doesn't exist. If you can explain how exactly you know about this aphysical world and are so certain it exists, please do.
It is extremely difficult to debate spiritual matters with anyone who does not believe that humans are spritual beings?

Um. We don't have a "self imposed box" of space and time. Space and time, in anywhere between four and twenty-six dimensions (depending on the theory), is all we really have. You could actually explain something rather than resorting to circular reasoning ("if you don't already know, you'll never know.")
Um, I was referring to a previous poster who had indeed imposed limitations in regards to his place in space and time. I was just stating the obvious?

It is interesting to note that you believe in multi-dimensions in regards to space and time?

What I find amusing are the posts from those that truly believe that their existence is finite. Why would those people waste their precious time debating the merits of finding a God that they believe to be non-existent?

Psychological curiosity, mostly.
We find it fascinating to try and figure out how your minds work.

Because folks wasting time and energy in god-seeking are the reason why our planet is on the edge of disaster.
If people were really looking for god they'd first study what folks in ancient times knew about god before the Jews came with their fabrication that has poisoned humankind ever since. If humankind wishes to survive it must first knock down synagogues, churches, and mosques and finally get the self-righteous teachings about the alleged god of Moses out of people's minds and memories. What we need is an age of enlightenment, where humans think with their own brains and not just repeat borrowed doctrines.
I think that if your "age of enlightenment" would include the suggestions that you have proferred in the above post, then I think I will take a rain check. However, I do agree that mankind needs to find the common ground that exists amongst us all.

I think that if your "age of enlightenment" would include the suggestions that you have proferred in the above post, then I think I will take a rain check. However, I do agree that mankind needs to find the common ground that exists amongst us all.And that should be reason, not religion.

Psychological curiosity, mostly.
We find it fascinating to try and figure out how your minds work.
Wow........are we that important? :p

Wow........are we that important? :p

Nothing to do with importance.
For me, it's really a bit like a pathological interest. It's a bit like trying to figure out how nationalists or racists think... it's a way of thinking, or rather a pattern or structure that I personally am unable to apply myself. So I'm trying to see how it works for others.
As a aresult, I have a bit of a morbid fascination for threads on religion, nationalism, etc.

Nothing to do with importance.
For me, it's really a bit like a pathological interest. It's a bit like trying to figure out how nationalists or racists think... it's a way of thinking, or rather a pattern or structure that I personally am unable to apply myself. So I'm trying to see how it works for others.
As a aresult, I have a bit of a morbid fascination for threads on religion, nationalism, etc.

Pathological interests make things important. :-)

What have you discovered in your analysis?

Wow........are we that important? :p

Individually, not always, but as groups, certainly, because you dominate the discourse in multiple areas of discussion, not to mention the various levers of political and military power you control.

whenever a person sets out to find something, and s/he can't find it, they keep lookin till they either find it or give up

the giving up is called spirituality by many others call it god, basically u invent some weird method to explain why u gave up or you imagine a friend to comfort you after you gave up

e.g u set out to find answers about life, u cant find em, you come up with a god (extension of your own ego), and now youve convinced yourself you found the answer so you become happier, thats why people think finding god is a gud thing

whenever a person sets out to find something, and s/he can't find it, they keep lookin till they either find it or give up

the giving up is called spirituality by many others call it god, basically u invent some weird method to explain why u gave up or you imagine a friend to comfort you after you gave up

e.g u set out to find answers about life, u cant find em, you come up with a god (extension of your own ego), and now youve convinced yourself you found the answer so you become happier, thats why people think finding god is a gud thing
After reading your post, perhaps you should consider a slight addition to your NS name? Between Epic and Fusion, add the word Con. :D

Pathological interests make things important. :-)

What have you discovered in your analysis?

If I tell you that, I'll turn this thread into a flamefest....

'cause He hid your car keys.



Originally Posted by CanuckHeaven
I think that if your "age of enlightenment" would include the suggestions that you have proferred in the above post, then I think I will take a rain check. However, I do agree that mankind needs to find the common ground that exists amongst us all.
And that should be reason, not religion.

I've seen so many people acting unreasonably. Like me.

No prejudice at all old chum, but we have been down this road before and although you profess to be of open mind and willing to gain some "knowledge" in regards to the subject at hand, it would appear that that is not true.That's not at all true. I'm not shopping for religion & if I somehow gave you that impression, it was absolutely unintentional. What I am looking for, is knowledge. Am I excluded from comprehending what religious people are on about, simply because I don't share their beliefs? You appear to take delight in mocking (http://forums3.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11046268&postcount=4225)those who have different values than yourself, when it comes to Godly matters.Not true by a long shot. I'm pretty sure I've never once mocked The Nazz, yet we have radically different values.
I do delight in mocking some individuals, but I know for a fact you share that weakness. Search your own posts if your memory's failing. I'm sure you'll agree it's not so much the values, but rather the manner in which one's presented with them, right?What I find amusing are the posts from those that truly believe that their existence is finite. Why would those people waste their precious time debating the merits of finding a God that they believe to be non-existent?Because a lot of people do believe in the supernatural, and since we share society on all levels, it'd be immensely useful to understand what it is to people. I've tried reading various holy books, but sadly they didn't make me any wiser as to why people embrace religion, what various magical concepts entails, and what they mean to the believers.

In short, don't mistake an assholish personality for lack of curiousity. That I have the former in spades, don't mean I don't have the latter in equal amounts.

So what I would like to know is, why should I want to find God?
Because it's past his bedtime and his mother's worried.

I've seen so many people acting unreasonably. Like me.So you are religious?

Because there is nothing else worth doing in the world. Not wisdom nor power, not pleasure nor pain, not riches nor poverty, ALL things outside of God are nothing more than a ripple in the sea, a vapor in the wind, fleeting spats of meaninglessness. Everything about ourselves is vanity, we live and die and are buried, and then forgotten. And the world goes on.

Why not seek God? There is nothing better to be doing. There is no knowledge, no wisdom, no Self-Indulgence that is enduring. We come from dust, we will become dust again. There is no other thing than to eat, drink and be merry, and Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. Everything else is meaningless, and if you think it has meaning, then you suffer vanity.

If my own wisdom, pleasure, and understanding of the world are all fleeting and meaningless, then why would it matter whether or not I find God? My perception of God will be as fleeting and meaningless as everything else.


Ecclesiastes is the book for you…
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=25&version=47
Read it.
You have answered my question fairly, and I thank you for that. However, I cannot share your contempt for the physical world. I do not believe my existence is "meaningless" simply because it is limited and finite. I also still do not see how "finding God" as you describe will improve my life or the lives of others.

Your philosophy leads me to the conclusion that there is no reason to help anybody on Earth, ever, since their pleasure or pain is meaningless. Your philosophy leads me to conclude that learning is meaningless, understanding is meaningless, and progress is meaningless.

If I were to embrace your philosophy whole-heartedly, then I would have no reason to ever do anything. Hell, I wouldn't have any reason to eat or breathe.

Maybe I will embrace that kind of futility at the end of my life, when there is no more life to waste. But so long as I have a fleeting, material life on this Earth, I intend to do something with it.

I can't answer for others, but I don't suggest you find God at all. I don't think it works that way. We can't make ourselves believe and I don't buy into the whole believe or you burn in Hell philosophy as it ignores the basic flaws of both human nature and the idea of faith.

I think something we can both accept is that there is a value to the wisdom of not pretending to have knowledge we don't have and can't have. I don't know that God exists. I don't know what God wants. I do have faith that God exists. I do have faith that God wants us to love Him and each other.

Ok, but WHY? Why have faith? What does having faith provide for you?

If you aren't comfortable suggesting that I, personally, find God (which is fair), then how about sharing why you found God, or what purpose(s) God-belief serves for you?


Knowledge you can search for and find, but faith is born of an acceptance of what we don't know and an acceptance of the value of what we feel.

What do you do when the two conflict?

For instance, I often have feelings that I know I should not respond to. Sometimes I feel like punching small children who are loud and annoying, but I do not automatically obey this feeling. My knowledge restrains me from blanket acceptance of what I feel to be "right."


I would never ask anyone to search for God.

One of the many reasons I like you. :D


I would only tell people what I often tell Gravy, keep an open mind. Most Atheists don't actually have any real idea about the existence of God. What they have a feeling about is that the nonsensical God that some fundamentalists preach doesn't exist? That says nothing about the existence of the God who gave us both reason and a world to apply it to.
All believers do exactly what you are describing, they simply do it to every God except the one they envision. Atheists are equal-opportunity skeptics. The very fact that you assume God gave us reason and the world is simply your image of God. So why do you choose the image that you do? Why do you choose to believe in the God that you do, as opposed to the many other images of God that have existed throughout the ages? Many gods did not create the world, or did not give humanity reason, so why do you choose not to believe in any of them?

fuck that. why would someone who has broken through the veil of religion, ever go back to the hazy mist of delusions?

be grateful you don't need religion as a crutch and ignore these cultists.

fuck that. why would someone who has broken through the veil of religion, ever go back to the hazy mist of delusions?

be grateful you don't need religion as a crutch and ignore these cultists.:D It could have been phrased differently, but essentially it's true.
Once you have stepped beyond the idiocy of faith, there is no need to ever go back. What's wondrous is that although it's so easy to see that (western) beliefs were bs from the get-go, there are still so many people who just cannot grasp that there is a difference between fabricated or religiously interpreted history and actual history.

:D It could have been phrased differently, but essentially it's true.
Once you have stepped beyond the idiocy of faith, there is no need to ever go back.

it could have been phrased differently, but I felt like being a bit non-PC and poetic and I will probaly get hell for it.

Wisdom is its own reward.

So finding God will provide me with wisdom? Are there alternative means to acquire wisdom? If so, why would finding God be a good choice (as opposed to the other means of gaining wisdom)?


There's a show called Monastary that was on Discovery not too long ago that I really enjoyed. It was about a bunch of varied people who came to stay with Gregorian monks for a month or so. Some were Christians, some not, but all were very affected by the experience. You should check it out if you can find it.

I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to study with a yogi during my high school years. While I did not (and do not) embrace much of the philosophy he follows, I found the experience of meditation and many of our exercises to be quite fascinating. I also enjoyed hearing some of his stories about traveling to various Eastern monestaries during his youth.

However, none of this involved the Christian God (or any monotheistic God). Do you believe that it would be more meaningful or informative if it did? Are the experiences of monks who do not follow your image of God going to be less...something...than the monks who do follow your image of God?


You ask Christians what they believe and you will get a different answer for every person you ask. Am I right? Are others who claim the opposite right? Who cares? Don't listen to Christians. They're just people.

I ask people why they believe God is beneficial, and why I should want God. This is no different than how I ask friends if it's worth my time to go see a particular movie. I still will make my own decisions, and I take other people's opinions with a grain of salt, but I still find much value in them.


I can give you one simple message offered by the subject of the faith that we Christians adhere to.

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

People who wish to subject you to their will will tell you other things, but Jesus was asked twice about this and gave similar answers both times (though the second time he didn't even mention God). Now, perhaps you might argue the value of the first, but certainly the second has a clear value. I would argue that from the second we find the first, but that's simply my belief.

Unfortunately, I do not automatically agree that it is wise to love one's neighbor as one loves oneself. But this is probably because I've lived in some fucked up neighborhoods.

At any rate, I certainly don't see how altruism or love of others would require or lead to God-belief. My mother certainly lives by the "love thy neighbor" principle, yet she has been an atheist since childhood. (My father remains politely indifferent toward his neighbors, mainly because he's reading the paper and would rather not be interrupted right now thank you very much. I think he's agnostic.)


Don't listen to those who claim that God wants you to judge others. Don't listen to those who claim God needs you to serve Him. It's not supported by scripture and it certainly is not something that's even remotely universal to the faith.

Why should I not listen to those people just as I listen to you? And why should the holy texts of your faith be the basis for my evaluations of God? Which version of those holy texts should I rely upon? (Keep in mind, I do not speak or read Aramaic.)


Be a loving person and keep an open mind and heart and the way you'll find is exactly the way God intended for you.
I'm not really concerned about finding my way. Remember, the whole thrust of this thread is that I'm not really interested in finding God. I'm not really worried about whether or not God approves of me or my life. And that's what I'm asking people: should I be? Should I care about finding God in the first place? Because, aside from my universal curiosity and desire to understand everything on principle, I don't feel any special drive to get God. I'm wondering if there are concrete reasons why I might want to reevaluate that.

Cause he's in your house, takin' your shit.
"IM IN UR SOULZ, GANKING UR SINZ!!!"
-God

bolding mine

Sounds like many people figure you to be in conflict with the spiritual principles of the universe?

After reading many of your posts, I would tend to agree with their assessment. :D
In my experience, people who profess to have found God are not any less likely to be experiencing mental or spiritual conflict. Do you believe that finding God does, in fact, reduce such conflict?

Perhaps you could elaborate on the nature of the "spiritual principles of the universe" as well?

My search for God seems different to most, from what I've read. I'm looking for God with the explicit aim of finding out what God is, rather than trying to find a God to align myself with in the hopes of some direct gain.

Religion has always been and remains an immensely powerful force in human society. This power facinates me. It has been present in a great variety of social constructs, many of whom seem at best tenuously linked by the sheer size of their membership and their proscription of mutual exclusion while providing exactly the same effects. And since I trust religion not to be one great big conspiracy, I believe there to be some particular strength behind the ideas they propose.

I wish to locate the source of this power, whether it is a real external entity, an allegory for a greater truth, a myth passed on to explain the way things are or simply a lie spread by those who wish to keep themselves in control. I want to know why it affects people so much, to work out whether it is something that is worth keeping. If it is, I want to know how to best put it to use; if not, I want to know how to best deal with its removal and the process of repairing the damage it has done.

Maybe it's a futile quest. Maybe it is a selfish indulgence of my intellectual curiosity. Maybe I'm just looking for my own gratification, like a self-righteous knight in search of a legendary sword to better slay one's enemies and improve his own standing. But it's been one I feel I've learned from, and one that I hope has allowed me to be of help to others too.
In a way, I think I have been doing something quite similar. I've studied psychology, philosophy, and neuroscience in large amounts, and one of the most interesting topics to me has been human motivation. As it turns out, I prefer the scientific approach for studying this, but I also found value in the way that psychology and philosophy approach the topic.

For whatever it's worth, neuroscience is rad and you should try it. :D If you've never seen an fMRI scan of a meditating Buddhist monk, you're missing out.

What I find amusing are the posts from those that truly believe that their existence is finite. Why would those people waste their precious time debating the merits of finding a God that they believe to be non-existent?
Why does God-belief preclude belief in a finite existence?

And, to answer your question, some people believe that the journey is often more important than arriving at the destination. Perhaps the pursuit of God has value, even if there isn't really anything to reach. (Of course, then my question is: what value?) People who don't believe in God can still have many reasons to discuss the relative merits of seeking God, just as people who don't believe in Santa can discuss the relative merits of Santa-belief.

whenever a person sets out to find something, and s/he can't find it, they keep lookin till they either find it or give up

the giving up is called spirituality by many others call it god, basically u invent some weird method to explain why u gave up or you imagine a friend to comfort you after you gave up

e.g u set out to find answers about life, u cant find em, you come up with a god (extension of your own ego), and now youve convinced yourself you found the answer so you become happier, thats why people think finding god is a gud thing

Wouldn't that depend on what they were looking for? If they were looking for spirituality, then spirituality is them finding it. :D

Why does God-belief preclude belief in a finite existence?

And, to answer your question, some people believe that the journey is often more important than arriving at the destination. Perhaps the pursuit of God has value, even if there isn't really anything to reach. (Of course, then my question is: what value?) People who don't believe in God can still have many reasons to discuss the relative merits of seeking God, just as people who don't believe in Santa can discuss the relative merits of Santa-belief.
Hey, I have always said that in regard to the question "Is there a god?", the answer is not important, but the question is.

Hey, I have always said that in regard to the question "Is there a god?", the answer is not important, but the question is.
For myself, the question of "Why pursue God?" is largely important because I live around a whole lot of other human beings. The majority of those human beings happen to be religious. Their religiosity and God-beliefs impact my life simply because we share a lot of common space and common resources.

Many of these other humans believe that I should try to find God. Whether or not they have the legal or physical power to FORCE me to do so, their belief that I SHOULD do so will probably impact my life in some ways. So I am interested in understanding their motivation.

For myself, the question of "Why pursue God?" is largely important because I live around a whole lot of other human beings. The majority of those human beings happen to be religious. Their religiosity and God-beliefs impact my life simply because we share a lot of common space and common resources.

Many of these other humans believe that I should try to find God. Whether or not they have the legal or physical power to FORCE me to do so, their belief that I SHOULD do so will probably impact my life in some ways. So I am interested in understanding their motivation.

maybe they think you are lacking joy, peace and other goodness in your life?

I have a relative who says to me at least every time I see her "if these people would get back in church, the whole world would be better"

I still am trying to find out who "these people" are, and what magic going to a building weekly holds.

maybe they think you are lacking joy, peace and other goodness in your life?

I have a relative who says to me at least every time I see her "if these people would get back in church, the whole world would be better"

I still am trying to find out who "these people" are, and what magic going to a building weekly holds.

Smunkee, don't get me wrong there, but in my experience, joyfull, peaceful and "good" people are rather rare in churches. And expecially people who tell others to find god tend not to be the most shining example of those attributes...

Present company exempt, of course.

Smunkee, don't get me wrong there, but in my experience, joyfull, peaceful and "good" people are rather rare in churches. And expecially people who tell others to find god tend not to be the most shining example of those attributes...

Present company exempt, of course.

did you miss the "maybe they" part? ;)

I don't really tell people to "find God" I figure eventually He will find them, or something.

maybe they think you are lacking joy, peace and other goodness in your life?

I have a relative who says to me at least every time I see her "if these people would get back in church, the whole world would be better"

I still am trying to find out who "these people" are, and what magic going to a building weekly holds.
tribalism? banding together with a bunch of others over something tends to make people feel better.

i guess that could be it
For myself, the question of "Why pursue God?" is largely important because I live around a whole lot of other human beings. The majority of those human beings happen to be religious. Their religiosity and God-beliefs impact my life simply because we share a lot of common space and common resources.

Many of these other humans believe that I should try to find God. Whether or not they have the legal or physical power to FORCE me to do so, their belief that I SHOULD do so will probably impact my life in some ways. So I am interested in understanding their motivation.

thankfully in this country, i have rarely - if ever- been told i should 'find god' or go to church, or anything similar. hehe...

I don't really tell people to "find God" I figure eventually He will find them, or something.

I think that, left to their own devices, most people would not find God, which is what we see happening in the West more and more frequently. Through self-examination it is possible they could find God without the envelope of society, but today's world offers them less reason than ever to examine themselves. And since Western society has infiltrated the East...

I think we are heading for a clash that could very well see an attempt by fundamentalist religions to define God once and for all, and that would be disasterous for them. Then, perhaps, spirituality can flourish again.

did you miss the "maybe they" part? ;)

I don't really tell people to "find God" I figure eventually He will find them, or something.

I didn't ;)
It just amazes me how deluded some people can be about themselves now and then.

I think that, left to their own devices, most people would not find God, which is what we see happening in the West more and more frequently. Through self-examination it is possible they could find God without the envelope of society, but today's world offers them less reason than ever to examine themselves. And since Western society has infiltrated the East...

I think we are heading for a clash that could very well see an attempt by fundamentalist religions to define God once and for all, and that would be disasterous for them. Then, perhaps, spirituality can flourish again.

people who are shallow will always be shallow, no matter where they live.

What if Bottle does do self examining and it still doesn't lead her to God?

What if Bottle does do self examining and it still doesn't lead her to God?

There's no guarantee it would, especially if no fundamental answer is found and the pursuit abandoned.

What if Bottle does do self examining and it still doesn't lead her to God?
Bottle does do self-examining, for the record. I have no plans to stop in the near future. None of my self examination has revealed anything that I would describe as God.




Well, except for that one time I examined myself in the bath...but that's a story for another thread...:D

There's no guarantee it would, especially if no fundamental answer is found and the pursuit abandoned.
I have spent most of my admittedly short life seeking answers that I may never find. I am not discouraged by this, since I know that it's going to take me a long time to even acquire the skills I need to accurately pursue these answer.

That's science, baby!

Sometimes, when religious recruiters come to my door, I attempt a counter attack, that always fails, by reciting chapter 3 of Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle.

A parable on the folly of pretending to discover, to understand
It is not known, in which Book this parable appeared, but it reads as follows:

I once knew an Episcopalian lady in Newport, Rhode Island, who asked me to design and build a doghouse for her Great Dane. The lady claimed to understand God and His Ways of Working perfectly. She could not understand why anyone should be puzzled about what had been or what was going to be.

And yet, when I showed her a blueprint of the doghouse I proposed to build, she said to me, "I'm sorry, but I never could read one of those things."

"Give it to your husband or your minister to pass on to God," I said," and, when God finds a minute, I'm sure he'll explain this doghouse of mine in a way that even you can understand."
She fired me. I shall never forget her. She believed that God liked people in sailboats much better than he liked people in motorboats. She could not bear to look at a worm. When she saw a worm she screamed. She was a fool, and so am I, and so is anyone who thinks he sees what God is Doing.

http://www.amazon.com/Cats-Cradle-Kurt-Vonnegut/dp/038533348X

Bottle does do self-examining, for the record. I have no plans to stop in the near future. None of my self examination has revealed anything that I would describe as God.

Oh? What is your 'self' then? Having a fundamental definition of it is putting yourself on the path to God.

What if Bottle does do self examining and it still doesn't lead her to God?

Well, parts of my observations so far have led me to the following conclusions :

Human beings want security. It's one of the most fundamental mental needs. Security can be found in knowledge, in being loved, in knowing what will happen, in fixed social structures, etc.
Now, science provides some answers and some knowledge, but it requires study, research, learning and it will always have to face doubt.
Love can be found in family, lovers, friends, but it requires time, dedication, reliability, lots of communication and mutual understanding.
Predictions, again, can be made by science, but they are shakey at best.
In short, there is no absolute security to be found in real life. But humans by nature strife to find absolutes, perfection. Some humans more than others, but it's something that can be found all around the globe.

I think this is the reason why humans started to look for the supernatural : to find explanations, to feel loved, to provide basis for social structures, etc.
Eventually, Buddah found Nirvana, Jesus found Jahwe, Mohammed found Allah, the Hindus found Krishna (and more), Echnaton found Aton, and some Aztecs found Vitzliputzli. These provided security in simplicity : They gave answers that were easy to understand and to believe, they promised love and rewards for worship, and they even provided divine rules to form the basis of society. Believing would be rewarded with absolute security.

However, humanity is diverse, and it's gods are not divers enough to suit everyone. Some can find security in the existing religious structures, others can't. Those others may try for a while to find the same rewards in faith as the rest of the society they live in, but they tend to give up after a while. If the urge to feel secure is strong enough, they will go and explore other religions, other beliefs, other philosophies even. If nothing fits, they'll end up creating new religions, or alter the religion they were presented with to fit themselves.
Others again find that they don't have such a strong urge to feel secure, that the answers provided outside of religion are quite enough for them, that they can find love elsewhere, etc. Those would be the ones turning away from religion.


Ok... you can start telling me how wrong I am now.

Oh? What is your 'self' then? Having a fundamental definition of it is putting yourself on the path to God.
Take all your clothes off and jump up into the air.

Everything that comes with you is yourself.*

I have spent a lot of time examining the various parts of myself. The most troublesome one, so far, has been my brain. I am particularly limited by the fact that it is not only located inside my body, but also behind my eyes. This makes it difficult to look at.


*Unless you have a tapeworm.

Take all your clothes off and jump up into the air.

Everything that comes with you is yourself.*

I have spent a lot of time examining the various parts of myself. The most troublesome one, so far, has been my brain. I am particularly limited by the fact that it is not only located inside my body, but also behind my eyes. This makes it difficult to look at.


*Unless you have a tapeworm.

I like the exception. :D

Ah, but then, is an examination of the body an examination of 'self' or an examination of the body? And if they are one and the same, why do we need two words for them (and why are those words used differently in language)? Is there really no difference between 'self' and 'the body'? (You acknowledge a difference between them in your words.)

Oh? What is your 'self' then? Having a fundamental definition of it is putting yourself on the path to God.

I don't see how having a definition of "self" puts you on a path to God. Do you mean to imply that if I know myself I will find that I am inadequate and begin searching for fulfillment in the divine? I find that attitude, that human beings are fundementally flawed and require divine guidance to achieve anything worthwhile insulting (if you don't mean to imply that, please disregard the preceding rantlette).

I like the exception. :D

Ah, but then, is an examination of the body an examination of 'self' or an examination of the body? And if they are one and the same, why do we need two words for them (and why are those words used differently in language)? Is there really no difference between 'self' and 'the body'? (You acknowledge a difference between them in your words.)

You know, there are no two identical feet in the world, and yet we call each one "foot" ;)
I would say that "self" is part of the body, just like the foot.

I don't see how having a definition of "self" puts you on a path to God. Do you mean to imply that if I know myself I will find that I am inadequate and begin searching for fulfillment in the divine? I find that attitude, that human beings are fundementally flawed and require dividne guidance to achieve anything worthwhile insulting (if you don't mean to imply that, please disregard the preceding rantlette).

Oh, golly, no.

Well, parts of my observations so far have led me to the following conclusions :

Human beings want security. It's one of the most fundamental mental needs. Security can be found in knowledge, in being loved, in knowing what will happen, in fixed social structures, etc.
Now, science provides some answers and some knowledge, but it requires study, research, learning and it will always have to face doubt.
Love can be found in family, lovers, friends, but it requires time, dedication, reliability, lots of communication and mutual understanding.
Predictions, again, can be made by science, but they are shakey at best.
In short, there is no absolute security to be found in real life. But humans by nature strife to find absolutes, perfection. Some humans more than others, but it's something that can be found all around the globe.

I think this is the reason why humans started to look for the supernatural : to find explanations, to feel loved, to provide basis for social structures, etc.
Eventually, Buddah found Nirvana, Jesus found Jahwe, Mohammed found Allah, the Hindus found Krishna (and more), Echnaton found Aton, and some Aztecs found Vitzliputzli. These provided security in simplicity : They gave answers that were easy to understand and to believe, they promised love and rewards for worship, and they even provided divine rules to form the basis of society. Believing would be rewarded with absolute security.

However, humanity is diverse, and it's gods are not divers enough to suit everyone. Some can find security in the existing religious structures, others can't. Those others may try for a while to find the same rewards in faith as the rest of the society they live in, but they tend to give up after a while. If the urge to feel secure is strong enough, they will go and explore other religions, other beliefs, other philosophies even. If nothing fits, they'll end up creating new religions, or alter the religion they were presented with to fit themselves.
Others again find that they don't have such a strong urge to feel secure, that the answers provided outside of religion are quite enough for them, that they can find love elsewhere, etc. Those would be the ones turning away from religion.


Ok... you can start telling me how wrong I am now.

I could almost agree with you.

one of my kids is fine (seemingly) with the idea that mom believes in God.

the other one doesn't quite understand it
"where is heaven?"
"I don't know"
"what if it's not real?"
"it's possible that it's not real"
"how possible?"
"I don't know"
"have you seen God?"
"no"
"then how do you know He is real?"
"I don't"
"what if God is an adult version of Santa?"
"it's possible"
"how possible?"
"I don't know"

I think it bothers her that I don't have the odds on "how possible it is"

You know, there are no two identical feet in the world, and yet we call each one "foot" ;)
I would say that "self" is part of the body, just like the foot.

And if we can examine our foot....

I like the exception. :D

Ah, but then, is an examination of the body an examination of 'self' or an examination of the body?

"Self" is a concept generated by the body. More specifically, by a particular part of the body: the brain.


And if they are one and the same, why do we need two words for them (and why are those words used differently in language)?

Your body includes the structures and processes that give rise to your "self." It also includes the systems needed to continue providing materials and energy for maintenance of your "self." It also includes some generally extraneous stuff, like earlobes, which are for fun.


Is there really no difference between 'self' and 'the body'? (You acknowledge a difference between them in your words.)
The structures and processes that give rise to my "self" are contained within my body. However, this does not mean that body = self. If I were to (heaven forbid) lose a leg or something, that wouldn't mean that my "self" was now missing a chunk. On the other hand, if I were to lose a chunk of the structures that create my "self" (ex: lobotomy), that would result in impairment or loss of "self."

And if we can examine our foot....

5 toes, purple nail polish, a bit of dry skin on my big toe that needs some moisturising.... yep, that pretty much sums me up there ;)

"Self" is a concept generated by the body. More specifically, by a particular part of the body: the brain.

Well done; and I am simply saying that having a fundamental definition of what that concept is of is "putting yourself on the path to God."

And to relate it back to the topic, perhaps if you do then you too can find a reason why you should "want to find God."

Bottle,

I was an atheist for a very long time, and I always felt that if God existed, She had more important things to worry about than whether or not I obeyed certain rituals or even believed in Her.

I said, if God wants me to believe, then She is powerful enough to make me believe.

And then I had the visions and saw God and experienced God with my own senses, just like I sense this keyboard I type on, and the air I breathe.

I was faced with the option of either acknowledging a higher power, or thinking I was insane. Since I feel sane and seem to act in a rational manner with other people who appear to share the same consensual reality that I do, I judge myself to be sane.

So now I am a theist, but not a believer. I am one who knows, but my knowledge creates more questions. It brings me no comfort or guidance. It does not help me when things get hard. There is no morality implicit in my knowledge, or even a guarantee that my soul will continue after I die.

Finding God may help you, but being found by God does not help at all. Any intelligent, moral atheist will find solace and joy enough in life without looking for faith. Perhaps a belief in God may help to bring comfort or solace. But I think it is the faith that helps you, not God Herself.

So there is a certain irony in my screen name. Hopefully my story will help you understand what people are trying to say when they speak of finding God.

Bottle,

I was an atheist for a very long time, and I always felt that if God existed, She had more important things to worry about than whether or not I obeyed certain rituals or even believed in Her.

I said, if God wants me to believe, then She is powerful enough to make me believe.

And then I had the visions and saw God and experienced God with my own senses, just like I sense this keyboard I type on, and the air I breathe.

I was faced with the option of either acknowledging a higher power, or thinking I was insane. Since I feel sane and seem to act in a rational manner with other people who appear to share the same consensual reality that I do, I judge myself to be sane.

So now I am a theist, but not a believer. I am one who knows, but my knowledge creates more questions. It brings me no comfort or guidance. It does not help me when things get hard. There is no morality implicit in my knowledge, or even a guarantee that my soul will continue after I die.

Finding God may help you, but being found by God does not help at all. Any intelligent, moral atheist will find solace and joy enough in life without looking for faith. Perhaps a belief in God may help to bring comfort or solace. But I think it is the faith that helps you, not God Herself.

So there is a certain irony in my screen name. Hopefully my story will help you understand what people are trying to say when they speak of finding God.Confirmable details?

Confirmable details?

when it comes to God nothing is "confirmable" nor should it be. (besides that's not a word.)

Wouldn't that depend on what they were looking for? If they were looking for spirituality, then spirituality is them finding it. :D

nah, if you set out looking for spirituality you either find the real deal (watever that is, insanity wud be my guess) or you fail and make up some other "spirituality" to atone for your failure, works for anythin

like trying to find a cupcake, you cant for some reason (fat person ate them all), so you make up a reason like "maybe it was better i didnt find the cupcake, cuz otherwise i'd be fat or it wud only be a temporary pleasure and is thus worthless after like 5 minutes or at least the fat person is happy etc." and that reason is called spirituality by many

After reading your post, perhaps you should consider a slight addition to your NS name? Between Epic and Fusion, add the word Con. :D

:eek: whoa....

*backs away*

wha...what are you???

nah, if you set out looking for spirituality you either find the real deal...
Then you've found it.

or you fail and make up some other "spirituality" to atone for your failure, works for anything.

Then you've found it and no one understands you.

nah, if you set out looking for spirituality you either find the real deal (watever that is, insanity wud be my guess) or you fail and make up some other "spirituality" to atone for your failure, works for anythin

like trying to find a cupcake, you cant for some reason (fat person ate them all), so you make up a reason like "maybe it was better i didnt find the cupcake, cuz otherwise i'd be fat or it wud only be a temporary pleasure and is thus worthless after like 5 minutes or at least the fat person is happy etc." and that reason is called spirituality by many

You can't find a reason ever. Everything you've ever decides was true was a guess. You saw a blue ball. You don't know it was blue or a ball. You only know that you think it's a blue ball. You eat pork. You don't know it's pork. You make a conclusion based on your experiences and your beliefs.

Your entire life is an act of faith. Sure there is more evidence for some things than others, but everything, everything you think and believe is an act of faith.

In my experience, people who profess to have found God are not any less likely to be experiencing mental or spiritual conflict. Do you believe that finding God does, in fact, reduce such conflict?
Absolutely. Most "mental and/or spiritual conflicts" are based on fear. Replacing fear with faith, eliminates or reduces these "conflicts".

Perhaps you could elaborate on the nature of the "spiritual principles of the universe" as well?
Many are nicely laid out here (http://san.beck.org/Life1-God.html), but certainly an open mind and faith are necessary to appreciate the "nature" of these "principles".

why should I want to find God?


Because he's hidden with the chocolates!

Many are nicely laid out here (http://san.beck.org/Life1-God.html), but certainly an open mind and faith are necessary to appreciate the "nature" of these "principles".

One word, dude: green background! Okay, that's two words.

Absolutely. Most "mental and/or spiritual conflicts" are based on fear. Replacing fear with faith, eliminates or reduces these "conflicts".

I have encountered several people who profess to believe in a God whom they also fear. How does this factor in to your idea of faith eliminating or reducing the fear that leads to most such conflicts?

Also, does it have to be faith in God that will accomplish this? Or could a person have faith in something else and attain the same level of comfort from it?

Many are nicely laid out here (http://san.beck.org/Life1-God.html), but certainly an open mind and faith are necessary to appreciate the "nature" of these "principles".
I appreciate the link, and I will read it through a couple more times to see if I've got something really substantive to say, but my first reaction was that it is a nicely-written account of one individual's wishful thinking. It includes no mention of why this universe-view should be assumed to be more factually true than any other.

It also glosses over important elements in its evaluation of various qualities. (For instance, "Among humans beauty and attractiveness are more often associated with women than with men." This statement is simply left hanging, with no evaluation of WHY certain gendered expectations exist. The implication is that God made it so, when the reality is that human beings make it so.)

There are also statements which are obviously untrue or inaccurate, such as the statement that "Love is the Spirit within that moves us toward what is good, true, and beautiful." Love frequently motivates individuals toward bad, untrue, or ugly things.

It's also very heterosexist. There is specific mention of the love an individual feels for a member of the opposite sex, and the mention of how this motivates us to reproduce, but no mention of those who love members of their own sex.

I did enjoy several passages, such as "Most people think of death as the opposite of life, but actually the opposite of death is birth." I found a lot of it interesting on the first read, but a lot of it was simply pretty poetry; nice to read, but no backing of any kind.

The thing about me is that I've got a very open mind, but this does not stop me from evaluating the information I encounter. Being "open minded," in my opinion, does not mean "accepting any idea you encounter." It means that you give everything a fair hearing and evaluate it based on its own merits. Sometimes this will lead you to reject the idea as insufficient or flawed. This doesn't make you close-minded, it just means you have standards and you think.

Then you've found it.


Then you've found it and no one understands you.

hey i was sayin that spiritual is a silly word, i was degrading the idea of spirituality (trying to neway) i wasn't sayin people werent spiritual

I realize that faith brings comfort and meaning to many people, but it's just never seemed right for me. I'm too much of a skeptic to believe in something that seems so illogical to me. But then again, I have some problems with quantum physics too. And I really object to something giving pre-programed answers and solutions to lifes problems. In addition to believing that religion discourages thinking for yourself.

I realize that faith brings comfort and meaning to many people...
Maybe this is where I'm getting hung up.

Why do some people need faith for comfort and meaning, while I do not?

I know that I am fortunate enough to have a wonderful family and terrific friends, and it is to them I turn to when I am in need of comfort. I am willing to accept that some people may turn to God because they lack such human presences in their life, but that surely cannot be the case for all believers. I know many believers who have loving families and strong friends.

As for meaning, how does "finding God" create any meaning other than what the individual has chosen for themselves? The individual chooses which God to follow, so they are choosing which kind of meaning their life will have. How is that any different than choosing any other source of meaning? Why choose God, as opposed to any of the other possible sources of meaning?

I'm don't bother trying to find God; I've got a lot of other stuff to do. If God really wants me, She knows where to find me.

I'm serious here. Why are we the ones who have to find God? Can't God find us?

Maybe this is where I'm getting hung up.

Why do some people need faith for comfort and meaning, while I do not?

I know that I am fortunate enough to have a wonderful family and terrific friends, and it is to them I turn to when I am in need of comfort. I am willing to accept that some people may turn to God because they lack such human presences in their life, but that surely cannot be the case for all believers. I know many believers who have loving families and strong friends.

As for meaning, how does "finding God" create any meaning other than what the individual has chosen for themselves? The individual chooses which God to follow, so they are choosing which kind of meaning their life will have. How is that any different than choosing any other source of meaning? Why choose God, as opposed to any of the other possible sources of meaning?Comfort I could use a little of, past what those in my life can give me. But I manage with the amount I get from them and myself. As for meaning, I agree with you. My life needs no meaning past loving and being loved.

I don't need for it to have some cosmic meaning like being the supposed favorite creation of some all powerful being. I've grown past needing to be Dads favorite child. My life has no more meaning cosmicallly than my cat's or that of a rat in the New York subway. Of course it has more meaning to me, but that New York rat doesn't think so. And I wasn't put here for some special purpose. I'm an accident like all the other creatures.

I can share why *I* felt the need, and it may or may not apply to those who read this, but for what it's worth:

As geeky as it may sound, the answer runs along similar lines as a concept I heard once in a Star Trek movie. (Not that this is what inspired my own desire, but it expresses it better than I probably can.)

In Star Trek:The Motion Picture the plot deals with a fictional Earth-built probe (Voyager 6) that had traveled out into the galaxy and been found by an alien race of machines who upgraded it so vastly that it gained self-awareness. It then decided to return to Earth to meet its original Creator.

Why would it need to do that? Well, it was originally programmed to gather all knowledge possible. It had reached the limit of what it could learn and now found itself unable to prgress any further. It had a sense of ambition, you see. So it wanted to go back to the origin and find its creator and ask:

"Is this all that I am? Is there nothing more?"

As vast as its capabilities and knowledge were, it still hungered for more. More knowledge, more understanding, to leap beyond its self and grow.

I believe that human beings posess this same desire. Some supress it, some ignore it, but I think it's there for all. It's what drives us to learn. To excel. To improve ourselves in this world...

For me it was a moment like that when I wondered, am I truly limited to this world? Will my spirit live on, and if so, can it continue then to progress and grow? Will all that I am be lost when my body dies, or will I still have new opportunities to explore and understand and wonder? At this point I can't leave the planet and explore with my body, but perhaps when I shed it will I then be thus liberated?

The only answer to thet must come from a being who's already done it and who is on the other side. Well that would be the being(s) we know as God, or a god, or some gods. That's where the search began, for me.

Having comfort and religious fellowship and all of that are bonuses, to me. Some rely on that more heavily than others.

As for meaning, how does "finding God" create any meaning other than what the individual has chosen for themselves?
It doesn't. We are the makers of meaning. Like Adam in the Garden of Eden, it is given to us to name things.

The individual chooses which God to follow, so they are choosing which kind of meaning their life will have. How is that any different than choosing any other source of meaning? Why choose God, as opposed to any of the other possible sources of meaning?
The choice of which God to follow is a choice of which mythology best suits the way you will understand God. Some understand it in terms of salvation (Christian), some understand it in terms of karmic balance (Buddhism), some understand it in terms of love (Hindu), etc. All the myths are pointing to essentially the same thing: God as consciousness.

We have consciousness; we make the myths, so this should be easy for us, right? No. They dropped myths from the curriculum centuries ago. Why should something we are not taught be easy, especially when we are mired in another way of thinking?