NationStates Jolt Archive

Did all the people before him go to straight hell and not pass go or collect $200?

Did all the people before him go to hell and not pass go or collect $200?

The argument is gonna be that one where they say Jesus was floating around with God at the creation of the earth, blabbity-blablah.

You know ...

BTW - are you gonna mention the Catholic Church's current stance on "Limbo"?

Did all the people before him go to straight hell and not pass go or collect $200?

Why is that so bad? While in hell, you would simply watch as the more unfortunate souls struggled with thousands of dollars in rent from landing repeatedly on Marvin Gardens. Though rolling doubles prematurely is definitely not cool.

I ask you though; anal rape with brimstone, or exorbitant hotel rates and the never ending rat race, around and around the board with the only goal the petty and sadistic elimination of your rivals? 700 kelvin rape please.

This has been my 2001st post, and it kicked ass.

BTW - are you gonna mention the Catholic Church's current stance on "Limbo"?

I'm not sure I understand that either. Limbo is a game you play usually when you're really drunk, Its not a place you go after you die!

Did all the people before him go to straight hell and not pass go or collect $200?

Soviestan, you're MUSLIM. You shouldn't criticise any religious system ever.

Why is that so bad? While in hell, you would simply watch as the more unfortunate souls struggled with thousands of dollars in rent from landing repeatedly on Marvin Gardens. Though rolling doubles prematurely is definitely not cool.

I ask you though; anal rape with brimstone, or exorbitant hotel rates and the never ending rat race, around and around the board with the only goal the petty and sadistic elimination of your rivals? 700 kelvin rape please.

This has been my 2001st post, and it kicked ass.

I would have to agree. It made me laugh quite a bit. The anal rape with brimstone was a nice touch:)

Soviestan, you're MUSLIM. You shouldn't criticise any religious system ever.

I stop that when you stop criticising Islam.

Did all the people before him go to straight hell and not pass go or collect $200?

Not only that, but what about people who aren't Christians?

I stop that when you stop criticising Islam.

Yeah, right. That's like telling me to stop criticising Nazism or communism, or telling me not to point out a miscalculation in a maths equation.

Wilgrove explains Catholic Dogma relating to Limbo

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that there is a place for those who weren't bad enough to go to Hell, but aren't exactly good enough to go to Heaven. Those people go to purgatory. Purgatory is basically limbo, you stay there until God decides that you have done your penance and allows you to enter Heaven.
Since when does God have a waiting room for Heaven? Is it like a doctor's office? Because you know what, if heaven smells funny and hands out robes that won't close in the back, I may not want to go. <.< >.>

Wilgrove explains Catholic Dogma relating to Limbo

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that there is a place for those who weren't bad enough to go to Hell, but aren't exactly good enough to go to Heaven. Those people go to purgatory. Purgatory is basically limbo, you stay there until God decides that you have done your penance and allows you to enter Heaven.

Don't move that Limbo bar! ... You'll be a Limbo star.

My work here is done. Goodnight.

Yeah, right. That's like telling me to stop criticising Nazism or communism, or telling me not to point out a miscalculation in a maths equation.

Alright then. Stop telling me to stop criticising stuff I feel like. Its your fault I'm up at 4 in the morning and can't sleep.......or something. I have to get up early tommorrow you know.

I'm not sure I understand that either. Limbo is a game you play usually when you're really drunk, Its not a place you go after you die!

Wilgrove explains Catholic Dogma relating to Limbo

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that there is a place for those who weren't bad enough to go to Hell, but aren't exactly good enough to go to Heaven. Those people go to purgatory. Purgatory is basically limbo, you stay there until God decides that you have done your penance and allows you to enter Heaven.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still
imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but
after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness
necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification
of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment
of the damned.
The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on
Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The
tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture,
speaks of a cleansing fire:
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the
Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says
that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will
be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From
this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be
forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the
dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas
Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be
delivered from their sin."From the beginning the Church has
honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage
for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified,
they may attain the beatific vision of God.The Church also
commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken
on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were
purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that
our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let
us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our
prayers for them.

Alright then. Stop telling me to stop criticising stuff I feel like. Its your fault I'm up at 4 in the morning and can't sleep.......or something. I have to get up early tommorrow you know.

You're welcome.

*sigh* Are you really so stupid that you actually let someone who is probably thousands of miles away keep you up when you know you have to be up early? Comon, use that little nugget in your head and realize that you can just turn off the computer and go to bed.

I would like to believe me. I just can't sleep so I came on here til I'm tired enough to try to sleep again.

Alright then. Stop telling me to stop criticising stuff I feel like. Its your fault I'm up at 4 in the morning and can't sleep.......or something. I have to get up early tommorrow you know.

*sigh* Are you really so stupid that you actually let someone who is probably thousands of miles away keep you up when you know you have to be up early? Comon, use that little nugget in your head and realize that you can just turn off the computer and go to bed.

Since when does God have a waiting room for Heaven? Is it like a doctor's office? Because you know what, if heaven smells funny and hands out robes that won't close in the back, I may not want to go. <.< >.>

People got stuck in Heaven's gate, so Purgatory is susspose to slow down the people who come into Heaven.

I would like to believe me. I just can't sleep so I came on here til I'm tired enough to try to sleep again.

Masturbate.

Did all the people before him go to straight hell and not pass go or collect $200?


If you want a serious answer, according to many Christian doctrines, faith in God and obedience to him was sufficient to save one's soul before the coming of Christ. Dante suggested that that just pagans who never had a chance to hear of God or Christ, and un-baptized infants are sent to Limbo, the first circle of Hell.

That Limbo is not the same as the Catholic Purgatory.

If you want a serious answer, according to many Christian doctrines, faith in God and obedience to him was sufficient to save one's soul before the coming of Christ.

I however seem to recall a line in the old testament stating that ignorance does not excuse sinning. So that if one sins without knowing it, they are still guilty in Gods eyes. So knowledge of scripture was still needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo

...someone never read Dante in school.

I don't think Jesus is the only way to heaven. I heard someone sing about a stairway once

I stop that when you stop criticising Islam.

Why can't we criticise Islam?

And comrade Potato Factory? Why can't a Muslim criticise another religion?

Yeah, right. That's like telling me to stop criticising Nazism or communism, or telling me not to point out a miscalculation in a maths equation.

more accurately, it would be like a communist telling a nazi to stop criticising communism, or the other way 'round, you chose.

btw, there are a few but non negligible differences between those political "views", and a moderate religion as is practised by (I hope) a majority of believers, no matter what their faith...

Did all the people before him go to straight hell and not pass go or collect $200?

Hahahaha! :D

I always wonder about the infants and children who die before they could ever hear about Jesus. Are they burning in Hell now?

i'd beat the hell out of him (by me, I mean my goons).

I always wonder about the infants and children who die before they could ever hear about Jesus. Are they burning in Hell now?

According to my understanding, they didn't reach the age of accountability, so no, they would not be in Hell.

In other amusing news, Heaven is hotter than Hell, according to the bible.

My understanding was that before Jesus, people used to sacrifice animals or whatever. Jesus sacrificed himself thus saving people forever. Or something.

In the first part of the Divine Comedy, Dante places all people who didn't know Jesus, even Moses and Abraham into Limbo. When Jesus died, he descended into Hell and took those souls with them. Limbo was taught as a place where people go when they haven't been 'saved' but are not bad people (ie. infants and the Socratics etc.). The Church no longer teaches Limbo, but there is a such thing as not being guilty by ignorance. IF you were born in the isolated jungles and never encountered Western civilization (thus, never knowing of Jesus) you won't go to Hell, because you're not at fault. Also, according to the Buddhist maxim, The Greater may be found in the Lesser. So, it doesn't matter what you believe per se, just be a good person.

Oh, and if you've done some bad things, don't worry. That's what Purgatory is for.:D

I had always understood it this way - beforehand, if you broke the Mosaic Law, you went to hell after receiving your punishment, which was frequently death. There was no chance for repentance, forgiveness, etc. except maybe through some other ritual, and that didn't always do the job. Then God decided that it wasn't working, and He sent Jesus to make things right.

At least that's a theological explanation. The Catholics believe that the whole thing was planned long in advance as sort of an ace in the hole God had. Not quite sure why he'd wait 4,000 or so years (that's four days in heaven, if I understand the theology...maybe he had to clear it with some bureaucracy up there or something, although it would suck if God had to deal with red tape.)

1 Peter 3:18-22
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Apostles’ Creed
I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:
Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:
The third day he rose again from the dead:
He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
I believe in the Holy Ghost:
I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:
The forgiveness of sins:
The resurrection of the body:
And the life everlasting. Amen.

In Hebrew Scriptures the word for the realm of the dead is, "Sheol." In the New Testament the Greek word used for this place is "Hades," which also refers to “the place of the dead.” The New Testament indicates that Sheol/Hades is a temporary realm, a place where the souls of the dead wait until the final resurrection and judgment day. The “Hell” most people think of when they say “hell” is the permanent lake of Fire, but that doesn’t come into affect until death and hades itself is thrown into it…

Revelation 20:13-15
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Some believe that Jesus descended into hell for further atonement of sin, some believe that Jesus descended into hell to free the souls of the dead that died before Christ’s time, some believe that he descended into hell to proclaim victory over hell and death but he didn’t take anybody out of hell, some believe that Jesus didn’t go to hell at all, but that the spirit went and proclaimed the victory…

What I believe is that he conquered death, and he is the way the truth and the light. If those saints that came before him were forgiven before the resurrection, or after the resurrection or at the resurrection on Judgment Day, I do not know. But I do know that they are saved through the future (to them) Christ alone, or they are not saved at all.

if people were getting into heaven before jesus, why would god have needed to send jesus?

when jesus died he descended into hell and redeemed all righteous souls there.

using this supposition, that those who died before jesus and thus never had a chance to accept him as their personal lord and savior were none the less taken to heaven by jesus, so many churches believe that people who live today and have no opportunity to know jesus also have the same chance to be taken to heaven.

The problem with the mentality of being able to get into heaven if there was never an opportunity to know Jesus is that it almost makes knowing about Jesus a disadvantage, since once you nkow, you have to follow Him or go to Hell. Makes it easier just to never hear of Him at all.

if people were getting into heaven before jesus, why would god have needed to send jesus?

when jesus died he descended into hell and redeemed all righteous souls there.

using this supposition, that those who died before jesus and thus never had a chance to accept him as their personal lord and savior were none the less taken to heaven by jesus, so many churches believe that people who live today and have no opportunity to know jesus also have the same chance to be taken to heaven.

Ok its like this:

Before Jesus made himself the sacrifice the only way people could goto heaven was by obeying the law best as possible, and repenting either through sacrifice at the temple every year, or some people did their own sacrifices. God saw this was not working well for the people so he scratched it out and sent Christ to be the last sacrifice, meaning all you need to go to heaven is to be saved through Jesus.

Abraham, and all the prophets were in Hades or a "waiting place." It's official name is Sheol. It was described as dark, and probably unpleasant, but it wasn't hell. When Jesus died to atone for man's sins, then the gateway to Heaven was finally open for men's souls. All of those in Sheol made their way into Heaven. I think only Moses, Elijah, and Enoch ended up in Heaven instead of Sheol, because God takes them in their bodily form, but who knows.

Abraham, and all the prophets were in Hades or a "waiting place." It's official name is Sheol. It was described as dark, and probably unpleasant, but it wasn't hell. When Jesus died to atone for man's sins, then the gateway to Heaven was finally open for men's souls. All of those in Sheol made their way into Heaven. I think only Moses, Elijah, and Enoch ended up in Heaven instead of Sheol, because God takes them in their bodily form, but who knows.

Where do you see in the scripture that this Sheol, or waiting place was made for people? I think the whole waiting place thing is made up by christians to try and prove that their way has been the only way.

Did all the people before him go to straight hell and not pass go or collect $200?

To put this as simply as possible and avoid "preaching" here is your answer.

Christ died for the sins of man: PAST, present, and FUTURE. The people who lived in the days before Christ were still saved through Christ by believing in the promise of the coming Messiah.

Wilgrove explains Catholic Dogma relating to Limbo

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that there is a place for those who weren't bad enough to go to Hell, but aren't exactly good enough to go to Heaven. Those people go to purgatory. Purgatory is basically limbo, you stay there until God decides that you have done your penance and allows you to enter Heaven.

Purgatory is as you say, and it is also an expression of God's mercy that he does not simply cast a large portion of the population into an eternal hell because they had the misfortune of not being in what Catholicism calls a "state of grace" at the moment of death.

Limbo is actually a different thing, constructed by theologians to account for the place of unbaptised infants in the afterlife. There was a bit of a dilemma, you see. After all, the Church teaches that baptism is required for salvation, but it also teaches that God does not send the innocent to heaven. So what about those who are innocent but not baptised for some reason? Well they simply go to Limbo, where they enjoy God's presence, but not the fullness of his presence as in Heaven. An amazing construction of an entire plane of existence just to preserve the importance of baptism along with God's justice. Theologians can be so amusing.

Yay, Dogma, preaching and prejudice! I love it.:headbang:

This is generally why I'm Buddhist.

Ok its like this:

Before Jesus made himself the sacrifice the only way people could goto heaven was by obeying the law best as possible, and repenting either through sacrifice at the temple every year, or some people did their own sacrifices. God saw this was not working well for the people so he scratched it out and sent Christ to be the last sacrifice, meaning all you need to go to heaven is to be saved through Jesus.

i think you need to run this one past your minister.

or if thats where you got it from, maybe run it past his boss.

Yay, Dogma, preaching and prejudice! I love it.:headbang:

This is generally why I'm Buddhist.

How demeaning to Buddhism that you chose it because it was not quite so annoying to you as certain other religions, rather than because you genuinely desire enlightenment.

Certainly, the Buddha and Jesus shared an interest in spreading enlightenment as much as possible, not an interest in being less annoying.

i think you need to run this one past your minister.

or if thats where you got it from, maybe run it past his boss.


Why is that? Isn't that what the bible reads? That before Jesus, every year on the day of atonement, the preist would sacrifice a lamb for everyone, to purify their souls for either the next year, or forgive of the sins of the previous year(i forget which) and the reason why they had to do this is because the couldn't uphold the laws, which is known as sinning, or being disobedient to God. I'd hate to think that God would send people to suffering becuase they followed what he told them to do, because one day he is going to change his mind and make a new way.

Its like saying in 3000 yrs, God sees that Jesus isn't the right thing for people, and does something else, so now, us people that believe in Jesus and do as we are told to do are sent into a waiting place until something better comes along. Thats not very Just if you ask me.

Did all the people before him go to straight hell and not pass go or collect $200?

Yes, because religion is like Monopoly. :rolleyes:

Not only that, but what about people who aren't Christians?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo

...someone never read Dante in school.

In the first part of the Divine Comedy, Dante places all people who didn't know Jesus, even Moses and Abraham into Limbo. When Jesus died, he descended into Hell and took those souls with them. Limbo was taught as a place where people go when they haven't been 'saved' but are not bad people (ie. infants and the Socratics etc.). The Church no longer teaches Limbo, but there is a such thing as not being guilty by ignorance. IF you were born in the isolated jungles and never encountered Western civilization (thus, never knowing of Jesus) you won't go to Hell, because you're not at fault. Also, according to the Buddhist maxim, The Greater may be found in the Lesser. So, it doesn't matter what you believe per se, just be a good person.

Oh, and if you've done some bad things, don't worry. That's what Purgatory is for.:D

Someone else who didn't read Dante. Non-Christians, along with unbaptised infants, according to Dante, were placed in the first circle of hell.

Straight hell? Homosexuals have a separate hell of their own? :p

*thwap*

Purgatory is as you say, and it is also an expression of God's mercy that he does not simply cast a large portion of the population into an eternal hell because they had the misfortune of not being in what Catholicism calls a "state of grace" at the moment of death.

You may call that mercy. I call that, in an amazing one time showing for god, not being a complete and total dick.

To the OP-

nobody really knows, there are a few theories.

Straight hell? Homosexuals have a separate hell of their own? :p

if people were getting into heaven before jesus, why would god have needed to send jesus?

when jesus died he descended into hell and redeemed all righteous souls there.

using this supposition, that those who died before jesus and thus never had a chance to accept him as their personal lord and savior were none the less taken to heaven by jesus, so many churches believe that people who live today and have no opportunity to know jesus also have the same chance to be taken to heaven.

or it was always faith in Jesus, people before Him were looking forward in their faith, and we are looking back in ours? I heard that one recently, sounded interesting.

How demeaning to Buddhism that you chose it because it was not quite so annoying to you as certain other religions, rather than because you genuinely desire enlightenment.

Certainly, the Buddha and Jesus shared an interest in spreading enlightenment as much as possible, not an interest in being less annoying.

I am shrugging right now because I don't really care what you think about me. The facts that you've made up when you read my post are not true, and that's all I'll say about that.

That is not my main reason for choosing Buddhism, but that is a part of it. I don't want to hate, because hate creates more hate. And hate in the end become immoral action, which turns into pain.

Someone else who didn't read Dante. Non-Christians, along with unbaptised infants, according to Dante, were placed in the first circle of hell.

When you try to correct someone, make sure you know what you're talking about. In the comedy, the first circle of hell IS limbo.

I am shrugging right now because I don't really care what you think about me. The facts that you've made up when you read my post are not true, and that's all I'll say about that.

Your post was emotionalistic rhetoric.

If you wish your posts to be read as reasonable, write them in a reasonable fashion. Most of us are not psychic.

That is not my main reason for choosing Buddhism, but that is a part of it. I don't want to hate, because hate creates more hate. And hate in the end become immoral action, which turns into pain.

I'm glad to hear that, and very much agree.

I don't understand this concept of purgatory and limbo and how it can fit at all with Christian perception. we are shown that God is a very black/white type of being. You are either this or that. there is no gray area. So logically speaking, wouldn't there just be heaven and hell, no other "waiting place"? As it is so, you are either with him, and you goto heaven, or you are against him, and you goto hell. Its that simple. Why must we humans complicate everything and add in these asinine ideas?

because its not standard christian belief that god sent his only begotten son to us so that we wouldnt have to do animal sacrifice anymore

maybe you belong to a denomination with nonstandard beliefs. if you dont, you better talk to your minister again.


ANd what I am saying is that BEFORE christ, they did have to do animal sacrifices, so thus they could go to heaven. After Christ, there was the one sacrifice of Christ, where we can get into heaven through HIM.

When you try to correct someone, make sure you know what you're talking about. In the comedy, the first circle of hell IS limbo.

I thought it was purgatory. Though I never actually read it.

I thought it was purgatory. Though I never actually read it.

You should. In the original Italian, if possible. The Comedy is truly an amazing poetic work.

Why is that? Isn't that what the bible reads? That before Jesus, every year on the day of atonement, the preist would sacrifice a lamb for everyone, to purify their souls for either the next year, or forgive of the sins of the previous year(i forget which) and the reason why they had to do this is because the couldn't uphold the laws, which is known as sinning, or being disobedient to God. I'd hate to think that God would send people to suffering becuase they followed what he told them to do, because one day he is going to change his mind and make a new way.

Its like saying in 3000 yrs, God sees that Jesus isn't the right thing for people, and does something else, so now, us people that believe in Jesus and do as we are told to do are sent into a waiting place until something better comes along. Thats not very Just if you ask me.

because its not standard christian belief that god sent his only begotten son to us so that we wouldnt have to do animal sacrifice anymore

maybe you belong to a denomination with nonstandard beliefs. if you dont, you better talk to your minister again.

or it was always faith in Jesus, people before Him were looking forward in their faith, and we are looking back in ours? I heard that one recently, sounded interesting.

that doesnt make a lot of sense to me since the messiah that the jews were looking forward to was not what jesus turned out to be. is any vague belief in a messiah enough to qualify?

I thought it was purgatory. Though I never actually read it.

not quite. In the comedy, dante visits first the 9 circles of hell, the first, which he refers to as limbo, is filled with non christians and unbatpized babies, who were otherwise good people, down through the levels until finally coming to the 9th level, the one reserved for traitors. There h meets the three headed devil, forever chwing on the three great traitors, Brutus and Cassius being forever eatten by the left and right mouths, and the central, most viscious mouth torturing, of course, Judas Iscariot.

Dante and Virgil leave hell entirely and enter purgatory (purgatory in the comedy isn't a level of hell, it's a seperate dimention onto itself). Purgatory itself has 7 levels, each representing a deadly sin. ONe is to go to each level, where they shall be purged of that sin and the desire to commit it, going through each level until fully purged.

I don't understand this concept of purgatory and limbo and how it can fit at all with Christian perception. we are shown that God is a very black/white type of being. You are either this or that. there is no gray area. So logically speaking, wouldn't there just be heaven and hell, no other "waiting place"? As it is so, you are either with him, and you goto heaven, or you are against him, and you goto hell. Its that simple. Why must we humans complicate everything and add in these asinine ideas?

a three day old child who dies from SIDS, is that child either with god or against god?

a three day old child who dies from SIDS, is that child either with god or against god?

The child has not sinned, therefore it goes to heaven.

When you try to correct someone, make sure you know what you're talking about. In the comedy, the first circle of hell IS limbo.

Yes, that's correct. My bad.

Good to see someone else has actually read it, though. It's one of the best works I've ever read. Not enough people do read it. I'd rather see people read Dante -- at least Inferno -- over Shakespeare.

ANd what I am saying is that BEFORE christ, they did have to do animal sacrifices, so thus they could go to heaven. After Christ, there was the one sacrifice of Christ, where we can get into heaven through HIM.

and im saying that you should write this theory up, hand it to your minister and see if he agrees with it

or if you got this theory from him, you should hand it to his boss and see if he agrees with it

if it turns out to be the teachings of your denomination then fine. if not, you need to know that.

The child has not sinned, therefore it goes to heaven.

Only if the child has been baptised.

I don't understand this concept of purgatory and limbo and how it can fit at all with Christian perception. we are shown that God is a very black/white type of being. You are either this or that. there is no gray area.

That is simply the oppositional dualistic conception of reality common to Western thought. I find it unlikely that, in such a complex reality as ours that generally presents us with a spectrum of phenomena rather then merely two opposing types, the dualistic conception accurately reflects reality.

So logically speaking, wouldn't there just be heaven and hell, no other "waiting place"? As it is so, you are either with him, and you goto heaven, or you are against him, and you goto hell. Its that simple. Why must we humans complicate everything and add in these asinine ideas?

That only works if you use a kind of logic that fails miserably to correspond to reality.

that doesnt make a lot of sense to me since the messiah that the jews were looking forward to was not what jesus turned out to be. is any vague belief in a messiah enough to qualify?

that depends, most of the people I hang out with are convinced that they are both the same or similar enough and that any prophesy that doesn't match up is either misunderstood or taken out of context.

I haven't looked into this claim much since it's only been within the last 8-10 months that I have heard anyone claim that Jesus didn't match up in the way He was supposed to.

God applied Jesus' sacrifice to all those who had, have, and will have faith in Him.

It doesn't matter when the perfect sacrifice was made, so long as there was one. And it doesn't matter when you live in relationship to that perfect sacrifice, so long as you have saving faith in God, as He has revealed Himself up to that point.

no zilam, its not.

what denomination are you? if you are one of "those" ill leave you alone.

if *I* have things wrong, it doesnt matter one whit. im not going to be a missionary. i dont argue religion anywhere but here and since i fundamentally dont believe in god, i have bigger errors than my interpretaion of the sacrifice of jesus.

but you are going to be a missionary and you need to have your theology right. as i said, if that is the teaching of your church then its fine to carry that teaching to others. if its not, then you are going to be teaching people things that arent right. you will be putting their souls in jeopardy.

I am non denominational. Most of what I beleive comes from what I read, and how its interpreted to me, through prayer and speaking with God.

Darling, its in the bible is it not? That enough for me.

no zilam, its not.

what denomination are you? if you are one of "those" ill leave you alone.

if *I* have things wrong, it doesnt matter one whit. im not going to be a missionary. i dont argue religion anywhere but here and since i fundamentally dont believe in god, i have bigger errors than my interpretaion of the sacrifice of jesus.

but you are going to be a missionary and you need to have your theology right. as i said, if that is the teaching of your church then its fine to carry that teaching to others. if its not, then you are going to be teaching people things that arent right. you will be putting their souls in jeopardy.

Only if the child has been baptised.

You don't have to be baptised to goto heaven.

you have scriptural backing for that?

No, referring back to the Dante discussion.

Only if the child has been baptised.

you have scriptural backing for that?

that depends, most of the people I hang out with are convinced that they are both the same or similar enough and that any prophesy that doesn't match up is either misunderstood or taken out of context.

I haven't looked into this claim much since it's only been within the last 8-10 months that I have heard anyone claim that Jesus didn't match up in the way He was supposed to.

even in the gospels when some think he is the messiah, they are wanting him to boot the romans out of israel. he has to explain to them that thats not what he is here for.

That is simply the oppositional dualistic conception of reality common to Western thought. I find it unlikely that, in such a complex reality as ours that generally presents us with a spectrum of phenomena rather then merely two opposing types, the dualistic conception accurately reflects reality.



That only works if you use a kind of logic that fails miserably to correspond to reality.

And God works on the same reality of Humans since when? His reality is clearly stated as you are with me or against me. Its as simple as that.

even in the gospels when some think he is the messiah, they are wanting him to boot the romans out of israel. he has to explain to them that thats not what he is here for.

well, that's not exactly all too different than the situation today, some people just don't get it (references Phelps and co.)

then why do it?

Baptism is an outward showing of an inward change. It doesn't mean that you goto heaven because you are baptised. You goto heaven on God's good grace, and thats it.

out of obedience, it's an ordinance (that's what my church and I believe) it's an outward showing to others your decision to dedicate your life to Christ. We don't baptize babies, only people who choose to be baptized.

Pretty much the same as what I believe.

Yes, that's correct. My bad.

Good to see someone else has actually read it, though. It's one of the best works I've ever read. Not enough people do read it. I'd rather see people read Dante -- at least Inferno -- over Shakespeare.

the only problem I had with the whole comedy is that I always felt that the ending in heaven was a bit of a....cop out?

At the time he wrote it,there's only so much you can write about religion without ending it someow about god's great love and all that. The whole thing about the comedy is it's dark and twisted and and challenges your perceptions on reality...and then he meets god and everything's great.

I wonder how much that ending was influenced by the times.

the only problem I had with the whole comedy is that I always felt that the ending in heaven was a bit of a....cop out?

At the time he wrote it,there's only so much you can write about religion without ending it someow about god's great love and all that. The whole thing about the comedy is it's dark and twisted and and challenges your perceptions on reality...and then he meets god and everything's great.

I wonder how much that ending was influenced by the times.


Yeah, I loved The Inferno. The rest? Not so much. And if you know about contemporary politics in Italy, all of Dante's works were hugely influenced by the times, which is kinda cool, cuz it adds a whole different level to them, but it does take a lot of historical knowledge (or at least a well annotated version of his works) to catch all the subtleties.

oh, using a fictional book to argue faith.....fun. (although some people may say that's what I am doing when using scripture :eek: :))




Yeah, I was going to bring that up :p

You don't have to be baptised to goto heaven.

then why do it?

then why do it?

out of obedience, it's an ordinance (that's what my church and I believe) it's an outward showing to others your decision to dedicate your life to Christ. We don't baptize babies, only people who choose to be baptized.

isnt that the truth!

do you think that someone as ugly as phelps gets into heaven because he believes in jesus regardless of the things he does with that belief?

Honestly, one cannot say whether a person gets into heaven or not. I know I did with the baby thing, but thats more or less a common sense question about God's justness(is that a word?). I think that he could goto heaven, but i think its safe to say God will hold him accountable for all the people he has turned away from Him(god). So whatever that means.

And God works on the same reality of Humans since when? His reality is clearly stated as you are with me or against me. Its as simple as that.

refering to any religious matters as "as simple as that" is ludicrus to the extreme.

No, referring back to the Dante discussion.

oh, using a fictional book to argue faith.....fun. (although some people may say that's what I am doing when using scripture :eek: :))

you know what I mean.

oh, using a fictional book to argue faith.....fun. (although some people may say that's what I am doing when using scripture :eek: :))

you know what I mean.

I know what you mean, hon. I got sidetracked by the whole Dante thing, because I'm completely enamoured with them, even though I myself am agnostic. Again, scriptural ref? I've got nothing. And not because I don't know the Bible. I made it a point to study it, because it's really the foundation of all Western literature. Whether people like it or not, without knowing the Bible, you miss a lot of the references and symbolism in all of Western literature.

out of obedience, it's an ordinance (that's what my church and I believe) it's an outward showing to others your decision to dedicate your life to Christ. We don't baptize babies, only people who choose to be baptized.

all well and good, sorta like a bar mitzva, but what about those who baptize babies? Catholics do that, right?

whose mission are you going on?

doesnt your minister have a denomination?

I'm going on my own accord, not going through any church or organization. I was going to go through a Muslim outreach group, but it wasn't for me. The minister that preaches for the church I goto up here, is non-denominational as well.

well, that's not exactly all too different than the situation today, some people just don't get it (references Phelps and co.)

isnt that the truth!

do you think that someone as ugly as phelps gets into heaven because he believes in jesus regardless of the things he does with that belief?

You people are hypocrites. You pervert religion to your own beliefs and values. You have no right to decide if a person goes to hell or not. That is not your call. You have turned religion into a dick measuring contest to see which one is the biggest. Let people believe what they want to. If you think you are going to change their minds, your brainless. You are not going to change anybody. What makes yourselves so much better than anyone else on this Earth? You are not! I am a Jewish, because I don't believe in Jesus does that mean I am going to Hell? You have no room to judge people. If you Christians want to play G-D, what does the Bible say about judging people?

oh, using a fictional book to argue faith.....fun. (although some people may say that's what I am doing when using scripture :eek: :))

you know what I mean.

cluich and I and a few others have been discussing dante interwoven through the thread, so it may be difficult to tell when one conversation drops off and the other picks up.

Yes, that's correct. My bad.

Good to see someone else has actually read it, though. It's one of the best works I've ever read. Not enough people do read it. I'd rather see people read Dante -- at least Inferno -- over Shakespeare.

Have you read Niven's 'version'? Pretty amusing...

I am non denominational. Most of what I beleive comes from what I read, and how its interpreted to me, through prayer and speaking with God.

whose mission are you going on?

doesnt your minister have a denomination?

If you Christians want to play G-D, what does the Bible say about judging people?

Judge not, lest ye be judged yourselves.

cluich and I and a few others have been discussing dante interwoven through the thread, so it may be difficult to tell when one conversation drops off and the other picks up.

Yeah, sorry about that. I hooked onto the Dante thing and ran with it. Would you believe that at uni I managed to write a 15-page analysis of the tale of Paolo and Francesca? :eek:

Again, sorry, but Dante's Inferno is one of my favourite pieces of literature. :D

You people are hypocrites. You pervert religion to your own beliefs and values. You have no right to decide if a person goes to hell or not. That is not your call. You have turned religion into a dick measuring contest to see which one is the biggest. Let people believe what they want to. If you think you are going to change their minds, your brainless. You are not going to change anybody. What makes yourselves so much better than anyone else on this Earth? You are not! I am a Jewish, because I don't believe in Jesus does that mean I am going to Hell? You have no room to judge people. If you Christians want to play G-D, what does the Bible say about judging people?

having a bad day?

even jews discuss the requirements for heaven.

You people are hypocrites. You pervert religion to your own beliefs and values. You have no right to decide if a person goes to hell or not. That is not your call. You have turned religion into a dick measuring contest to see which one is the biggest. Let people believe what they want to. If you think you are going to change their minds, your brainless. You are not going to change anybody. What makes yourselves so much better than anyone else on this Earth? You are not! I am a Jewish, because I don't believe in Jesus does that mean I am going to Hell? You have no room to judge people. If you Christians want to play G-D, what does the Bible say about judging people?

We are no one to judge. But we are commanded by God to carry out His judgements sometimes.

You're Jewish? Have you read the Pentateuch recently? A lot of judgment there, all being carried out by the people. Same in the New Testament where Jesus speaks of knowing the tree by its fruit and Paul calling for the excommunication of the unrepentent.

I like bagels. :)

Leave it to you, mate, to inject a little humour in here. That's your job, isn't it? If so, you deserve a raise. :D

all well and good, sorta like a bar mitzva, but what about those who baptize babies? Catholics do that, right?
we believe that they are basically getting the babies wet, which is actually what we believe about baptism anyway, you just get wet, there is nothing magic about it, but we attach meaning to the act, like there is meaning to communion, there is nothing special about the cracker and juice. Which is why it's okay for me to get a gluten free wafer, it's my prayerful attitude that makes the difference, not what I put in my mouth.


isnt that the truth!

do you think that someone as ugly as phelps gets into heaven because he believes in jesus regardless of the things he does with that belief?
one wonders (and probably shouldn't) if he really does understand Jesus, if he really has made a commitment. These are questions we can never answer, God knows his heart.



cluich and I and a few others have been discussing dante interwoven through the thread, so it may be difficult to tell when one conversation drops off and the other picks up.
thanks for the heads up, I will pay more attention ;)

You people are hypocrites. You pervert religion to your own beliefs and values. You have no right to decide if a person goes to hell or not. That is not your call. You have turned religion into a dick measuring contest to see which one is the biggest. Let people believe what they want to. If you think you are going to change their minds, your brainless. You are not going to change anybody. What makes yourselves so much better than anyone else on this Earth? You are not! I am a Jewish, because I don't believe in Jesus does that mean I am going to Hell? You have no room to judge people. If you Christians want to play G-D, what does the Bible say about judging people?

I like bagels. :)

This thought just came to me. It may or may not make sense.
Anyways, as I said, before Jesus, the Jews made their sacrifices to God for atonement. The question was then, if this got them to heaven, then wouldn't that meant there are people in heaven on two different ideas?

I think not. THis is my reasoning. Since Jesus was more or less God's spirit incarnate, meaning it was God in the Flesh, then he was the same as God. So this means that Jews were obedient to God, which is equal to Christians being obedient to Christ, as they are the same?


Argh. It makes sense in my head, and I have it written down, and it makes sense, but it doesn't make sense on here!:headbang:

ok. edit!!!! Jews went to heaven through obedience of sacrifice to God, and Christians are going to heaven by accepting the sacrifice from God....maybe that makes more sense.

I'm going on my own accord, not going through any church or organization. I was going to go through a Muslim outreach group, but it wasn't for me. The minister that preaches for the church I goto up here, is non-denominational as well.

how will you live? are you bringing enough money to get by on while you are there? are you hoping to get some work like teaching english to get you by?

this thread is driving me crazy with its severe time warp.

the reason i asked the question about phelps is that i really dont know how a protestant would answer it.

i dont particularly care about phelps personally. im just wondering how far you (all) think that one can stray from jesus and still get into heaven because you believe in him? is a warped and ugly version of jesus acceptable?

You must believe in the Trinity, that Jesus was both fully man and fully God, that He was perfect, that He died for the sins of many, that He was born to a virgin, that He rose bodily, that He asended into heaven, that He will return to judge both the living and the dead, that He sent the Holy Spirit to guide His followers in His absence, and that His miracles were real.

That's what is required for salvation.

this thread is driving me crazy with its severe time warp.

the reason i asked the question about phelps is that i really dont know how a protestant would answer it.

i dont particularly care about phelps personally. im just wondering how far you (all) think that one can stray from jesus and still get into heaven because you believe in him? is a warped and ugly version of jesus acceptable?

Well actually smunkee said it best, we can't really tell. I mean its easy to say no, because he doesn't fit OUR view of what it means to be christian, but likewise we don't fit HIS view. So, i guess in the end, its up to God to decide who he lets in, with this whole little gray area.

having a bad day?

even jews discuss the requirements for heaven.

buh?

Honestly, one cannot say whether a person gets into heaven or not. I know I did with the baby thing, but thats more or less a common sense question about God's justness(is that a word?). I think that he could goto heaven, but i think its safe to say God will hold him accountable for all the people he has turned away from Him(god). So whatever that means.

this thread is driving me crazy with its severe time warp.

the reason i asked the question about phelps is that i really dont know how a protestant would answer it.

i dont particularly care about phelps personally. im just wondering how far you (all) think that one can stray from jesus and still get into heaven because you believe in him? is a warped and ugly version of jesus acceptable?

You must believe in the Trinity, that Jesus was both fully man and fully God, that He was perfect, that He died for the sins of many, that He was born to a virgin, that He rose bodily, that He asended into heaven, that He will return to judge both the living and the dead, that He sent the Holy Spirit to guide His followers in His absence, and that His miracles were real.

That's what is required for salvation.
You don't have to believe in the trinity to be a Christian. As believing in a three-headed God system is technically polytheistic, and thats not what Christianity is about.

how will you live? are you bringing enough money to get by on while you are there? are you hoping to get some work like teaching english to get you by?

I will be working I am sure. As far as living is concerned, I'm honestly not that worried. I'm just answering a call, and God will provide the rest.

Yeah, sorry about that. I hooked onto the Dante thing and ran with it. Would you believe that at uni I managed to write a 15-page analysis of the tale of Paolo and Francesca? :eek:

I did something similar with the knights tale from chauser.

Did all the people before him go to straight hell and not pass go or collect $200?

i want to play monopoly now

I did something similar with the knights tale from chauser.

Did you pull it off while drunk, though, and in under three hours? ;)

You must believe in the Trinity, that Jesus was both fully man and fully God, that He was perfect, that He died for the sins of many, that He was born to a virgin, that He rose bodily, that He asended into heaven, that He will return to judge both the living and the dead, that He sent the Holy Spirit to guide His followers in His absence, and that His miracles were real.

That's what is required for salvation.

standard christian belief.

if you do believe all those things but live a completely immoral life, do you still go to heaven? immoral as in breaking the 10 commandments on a regular basis.

now dont be bothered to tell me that the 2 dont go together. that prominent minister who got outed by the gay prostitute proved that.

if there is only one god, then when ....hindus...worship one of their gods are they not really worshiping GOD in some way?

Ah, the difference between monotheism and pantheism. The argument would be that Hindus, in that case, are worshipping one aspect of the one god.

Again, though, agnostic here.

standard christian belief.

if you do believe all those things but live a completely immoral life, do you still go to heaven? immoral as in breaking the 10 commandments on a regular basis.

now dont be bothered to tell me that the 2 dont go together. that prominent minister who got outed by the gay prostitute proved that.

it depends on what you mean by believe. I mean I am sure that satan believes all that, I mean he has to right?

Accept that you are a sinner
Believe that Jesus died for your sins
Commit your life to serve Him

that's the way I understand......you need all three, not just a combo of a few.

This thought just came to me. It may or may not make sense.
Anyways, as I said, before Jesus, the Jews made their sacrifices to God for atonement. The question was then, if this got them to heaven, then wouldn't that meant there are people in heaven on two different ideas?

I think not. THis is my reasoning. Since Jesus was more or less God's spirit incarnate, meaning it was God in the Flesh, then he was the same as God. So this means that Jews were obedient to God, which is equal to Christians being obedient to Christ, as they are the same?


Argh. It makes sense in my head, and I have it written down, and it makes sense, but it doesn't make sense on here!:headbang:

ok. edit!!!! Jews went to heaven through obedience of sacrifice to God, and Christians are going to heaven by accepting the sacrifice from God....maybe that makes more sense.

if there is only one god, then when ....hindus...worship one of their gods are they not really worshiping GOD in some way?

Actually, if your talking about Catholic Baptism... the only meaning Baptism has is to wash away the orginal sin you are born with (the sin of your parents having sex to create you)

Uh...you fail at understanding the concept of original sin.

it depends on what you mean by believe. I mean I am sure that satan believes all that, I mean he has to right?

Accept that you are a sinner
Believe that Jesus died for your sins
Commit your life to serve Him

that's the way I understand......you need all three, not just a combo of a few.

yes but phelps realy has committed his life to serve jesus. i have no doubt of that. i doubt that he has any understanding of jesus at all.

even CATHOLICS commit their lives to serving god. (not that im suggest that YOU think that catholics are heretics who dont count as christians and who can never get to heaven but many baptists and other protestants think that)

oh i just dont understand protestants at all do i?

thats my point

if there is only one god, then arent hindus worshipping that god however imperfectly?

I think they would very much reject the idea that they are doing it imperfectly.

Baptism is an outward showing of an inward change. It doesn't mean that you goto heaven because you are baptised. You goto heaven on God's good grace, and thats it.

Actually, if your talking about Catholic Baptism... the only meaning Baptism has is to wash away the orginal sin you are born with

yes but phelps realy has committed his life to serve jesus. i have no doubt of that. i doubt that he has any understanding of jesus at all.

even CATHOLICS commit their lives to serving god. (not that im suggest that YOU think that catholics are heretics who dont count as christians and who can never get to heaven but many baptists and other protestants think that)

oh i just dont understand protestants at all do i?

there is no way to know if he committed or not. all we can do is pray for him.

for all we know he has it right and I am going to hell. :eek:

Actually, if your talking about Catholic Baptism... the only meaning Baptism has is to wash away the orginal sin you are born with (the sin of your parents having sex to create you)

the sin of our parents having sex to create us? What?

Fail.

Ah, the difference between monotheism and pantheism. The argument would be that Hindus, in that case, are worshipping one aspect of the one god.

Again, though, agnostic here.

thats my point

if there is only one god, then arent hindus worshipping that god however imperfectly?

thats my point

if there is only one god, then arent hindus worshipping that god however imperfectly?

I think they would very much reject the idea that they are doing it imperfectly.

Again, difference between monotheism and pantheism. No biggie really. You say tomato. I say tomatoes. *shrug*

You don't have to believe in the trinity to be a Christian. As believing in a three-headed God system is technically polytheistic, and thats not what Christianity is about.

Ummm, you misunderstand the Trinity, then. The Trinity is the only way that God can work as He is revealed in the Bible, so...

But this isn't a thread about the Trinity.

there is no way to know if he committed or not. all we can do is pray for him.

for all we know he has it right and I am going to hell. :eek:

that sure would suck. "you mean you were that cold hearted bastard from the old testament after all? why didnt you tell me?"

"it was right there in the old testament, smunkee, what more did i have to say?"

so really, when protestants say that catholics are damned they are just being pissy arent they?

Uh...you fail at understanding the concept of original sin.

he completely failed.

that sure would suck. "you mean you were that cold hearted bastard from the old testament after all? why didnt you tell me?"

"it was right there in the old testament, smunkee, what more did i have to say?"

so really, when protestants say that catholics are damned they are just being pissy arent they?

pretty much.

I don't agree with a lot of things that the catholic church does, but as for individual catholics.......it's really a case by case basis, and the worst they are going to get is me praying for them.

I don't think being a certain denomination guarantees salvation, neither does one automatically negate it. It's all in the heart of a person.

mhmmm thats true.. orginal sin is actually the sin Adam commited and we inherited.. [close enough] ^.^v

either way... that is the meaning of baptism for catholics

Not close enough at all. You still fail.

Answering a previous question about the people who died b4 Christ.

The Christian faith states somewhere in the Bible that Abraham was justified by faith in God's promise that he would send a savior. (Jesus Christ). Abraham did go to heaven and so did anybody else who had faith in God's promise.

Uh...you fail at understanding the concept of original sin.

mhmmm thats true.. orginal sin is actually the sin Adam commited and we inherited.. [close enough] ^.^v

either way... that is the meaning of baptism for catholics

standard christian belief.

if you do believe all those things but live a completely immoral life, do you still go to heaven? immoral as in breaking the 10 commandments on a regular basis.

now dont be bothered to tell me that the 2 dont go together. that prominent minister who got outed by the gay prostitute proved that.

First, the Christian will always sin in this life, even until the death bed.

Second, you can be a very good actor. You can fool yourself into thinking you have salvation. Matthew 7:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&verse=21&version=47&context=verse)

You can say all the right stuff, and done nothing right. That's not a saving faith.

You can do all the right stuff, and say nothing right. That's not a saving faith either.

You can say all the right stuff and do all the right stuff. Even that's not necesssarily a saving faith.

What is needed?

You must assent: "Yes, there are persons who believe the earth is round."

You must accept: "Yes, the earth is round."

You must act: "Here I am stepping on the cruise liner which will take me around the world."

Thats what you call a make up exam ^-^b

And that's what I call an F.

Not close enough at all. You still fail.

Thats what you call a make up exam ^-^b

I stop that when you stop criticising Islam.

I stop criticizing when you stop cutting people's heads off and strapping your children with bombs.

Sectarian violence in the making here:

"I will stop killing you when you stop being a Shi'ite dog".

what act is necessary? i get on the boat, it does all the work. if i have to DO something, isnt that perilously close to that whole good works thing?

can i lie, cheat, steal, murder and as long as i accept jesus as my personal lord and savior, im good? we all sin. is there a level of sinfulness that just puts god on tilt and you go to hell no matter what you believe?

Well, first, the act isn't the faith itself. It's the result of the faith. The act is going around the world. The faith is getting on the boat. Make sense? It's a strange metaphor, I know.

The acts would need to be those which God commanded in Scripture. There is no sin so great that God will not forgive it if you have faith in Him.

What about the unforgivable sin?
The Holy Spirit works on everyone. And some persons just keep screaming "NO! NO! NNNNOOOOO!" That's the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. And The Holy Spirit says "Okay, fine, I'll leave you alone."

First, the Christian will always sin in this life, even until the death bed.

Second, you can be a very good actor. You can fool yourself into thinking you have salvation. Matthew 7:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&verse=21&version=47&context=verse)

You can say all the right stuff, and done nothing right. That's not a saving faith.

You can do all the right stuff, and say nothing right. That's not a saving faith either.

You can say all the right stuff and do all the right stuff. Even that's not necesssarily a saving faith.

What is needed?

You must assent: "Yes, there are persons who believe the earth is round."

You must accept: "Yes, the earth is round."

You must act: "Here I am stepping on the cruise liner which will take me around the world."

what act is necessary? i get on the boat, it does all the work. if i have to DO something, isnt that perilously close to that whole good works thing?

can i lie, cheat, steal, murder and as long as i accept jesus as my personal lord and savior, im good? we all sin. is there a level of sinfulness that just puts god on tilt and you go to hell no matter what you believe?

I stop criticizing when you stop cutting people's heads off and strapping your children with bombs.

Sectarian violence in the making here:

"I will stop killing you when you stop being a Shi'ite dog".

Oh, please. Let's try to be civil. :)

Did all the people before him go to straight hell and not pass go or collect $200?

before Jesus, there were rituals one had to do, burnt offerings, prayers and alot of other things.

so before Jesus, It was harder to be forgiven.

can i lie, cheat, steal, murder and as long as i accept jesus as my personal lord and savior, im good? we all sin. is there a level of sinfulness that just puts god on tilt and you go to hell no matter what you believe?

No, that's the entire point of the New Testament, declaring that basically "Look, you're all equally worthless. There is nothing you can do that makes you any better than the next person, you've all sinned, you've all fallen short, so pretending you're somehow better than the next person is just leading you to kidding yourself...putting on a pious show in front of others? Kidding yourself again."

Only if the child has been baptised.you have scriptural backing for that? [the topic being saved if baptized]

Colossians 2:11-12
In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Baptism is the replacement for circumcision, the mark of the saved. If you aren’t buried with him in baptism how can you be raised with him in resurrection? Saying you don’t need baptism is like saying Christ didn’t need to be buried, but without it there is no resurrection. As it says here…

Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Also:
1 Peter:18-22
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Noah’s water symbolized the water of Baptism into Christ… It clearly says that without the water there is nothing to be saved through…

Grrr... I had written an entire long post that would have shaken all of you in your boots. It was a masterpiece.

The forum logged me out while I was typing it, and the entire post was lost. *sigh* I haven't the seratonin to re-type it, so assume that I just satisfactorially answered all of your questions while simultaneously shaking your faith in god and religion, okay?

Ugh.

Damn I hate that, espeacliy when you have the wording and meter just right, and you can nevre ever recall it again. Grrrrr indeed.:(

Colossians 2:11-12
In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Baptism is the replacement for circumcision, the mark of the saved. If you aren’t buried with him in baptism how can you be raised with him in resurrection? Saying you don’t need baptism is like saying Christ didn’t need to be buried, but without it there is no resurrection. As it says here…

Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Also:
1 Peter:18-22
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Noah’s water symbolized the water of Baptism into Christ… It clearly says that without the water there is nothing to be saved through…
Luke 23:39-43
And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.


apparently Jesus doesn't think you need a dunk in magic water.

Luke 23:39-43
And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.


apparently Jesus doesn't think you need a dunk in magic water.


Umm can anybody tell me the differance in exoteric and esoteric teachings in the Bible?

Grrr... I had written an entire long post that would have shaken all of you in your boots. It was a masterpiece.

The forum logged me out while I was typing it, and the entire post was lost. *sigh* I haven't the seratonin to re-type it, so assume that I just satisfactorially answered all of your questions while simultaneously shaking your faith in god and religion, okay?

Ugh.

Grrr... I had written an entire long post that would have shaken all of you in your boots. It was a masterpiece.

The forum logged me out while I was typing it, and the entire post was lost. *sigh* I haven't the seratonin to re-type it, so assume that I just satisfactorially answered all of your questions while simultaneously shaking your faith in god and religion, okay?

Go back to the post page, copy the it, and repost it.

I'm a veteran at this because me and Soheran usually end up having really long posts when we're discussing topics, and that's a must if you want to keep up the discussion. ;)

apparently Jesus doesn't think you need a dunk in magic water.

Ugh. Yeah. Paul, the add-on apostle, would change his requirements for salvation based on the circumstances. The basic idea I've heard is "baptism is required if you can get it, if there's no water around or you die on the way to the baptistry, you're covered."

Also, since Jewish law had baptism in many of its ceremonies (The tabernacle had a copper basin for this purpose) and the guy on the cross next to Jesus was probably Jewish, then he had probably already been baptized. Still, leave it to Jesus to set a dangerous precendent for "our" religion.

Did all the people before him go to straight hell and not pass go or collect $200?

No. Salvation is for all that will believe in Christ and be obedient to his commandments, living or dead, no matter what age of the world they lived in. God has set aside teachers to teach those that go out of this life having never had the opertunity to hear or understand the fullness of the gospel. And Peter speaks of Christ visiting the spirits that were in prison (see 1 Peter 3:19 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/19#19))durring the three days after his death before He was resurected. Durring that time Christ organised and instructed those that were to carry the gospel unto those that had not recieved it while in this life, who would have recieved it if they had had the privilege of hearing it.

But seeing as the savior had decreed that a man cannot enter into the kingdom of God without being baptised (see John 3:5 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/3/5#5)), those who are alive are baptised for their dead, so that they can also be saved in the kingdom of God. This doctrine is supported in the new testament, for Paul endevors to prove the doctrine of the ressurection from it when he said "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" (1 Corinthians 15:29 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_cor/15/29#29)).

This is one of the ordinances preformed in Latter-day Saint temples, and though it is a strange doctrine to most people it is a true doctrine. Paul refers to it in the new testament. I want to make it clear that baptisim for the dead is not binding upon any soul that does not desire it, they can choose to accept or reject the ordinance. So we are not baptising people into our church against their will. Such a thing is impossible, for God will exercise no degree of compulsion upon the souls of men, and no one else can, all is voluntary.

You might also read this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=450178).

Ugh. Yeah. Paul, the add-on apostle, would change his requirements for salvation based on the circumstances. The basic idea I've heard is "baptism is required if you can get it, if there's no water around or you die on the way to the baptistry, you're covered."

Also, since Jewish law had baptism in many of its ceremonies (The tabernacle had a copper basin for this purpose) and the guy on the cross next to Jesus was probably Jewish, then he had probably already been baptized. Still, leave it to Jesus to set a dangerous precendent for "our" religion.

Baptism is meaningless rite though really. Why do you need an actual ritual to show that you have been 'reborn' so to speak.

All baptism comes from this Pagan idea of rebirth. The old you is dead, long live the new you. You can actualy be 'reborn' without the need for the rite. When all is said and done, all rituals are only there to focus the mind on what is going on internaly, a very, very Pagan practise.

No. Salvation is for all that will believe in Christ and be obedient to his commandments, living or dead, no matter what age of the world they lived in. God has set aside teachers to teach those that go out of this life having never had the opertunity to hear or understand the fullness of the gospel. And Peter speaks of Christ visiting the spirits that were in prison (see 1 Peter 3:19 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/19#19))durring the three days after his death before He was resurected. Durring that time Christ organised and instructed those that were to carry the gospel unto those that had not recieved it while in this life, who would have recieved it if they had had the privilege of hearing it.

But seeing as the savior had decreed that a man cannot enter into the kingdom of God without being baptised (see John 3:5 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/3/5#5)), those who are alive are baptised for their dead, so that they can also be saved in the kingdom of God. This doctrine is supported in the new testament, for Paul endevors to prove the doctrine of the ressurection from it when he said "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" (1 Corinthians 15:29 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_cor/15/29#29)).

This is one of the ordinances preformed in Latter-day Saint temples, and though it is a strange doctrine to most people it is a true doctrine. Paul refers to it in the new testament. I want to make it clear that baptisim for the dead is not binding upon any soul that does not desire it, they can choose to accept or reject the ordinance. So we are not baptising people into our church against their will. Such a thing is impossible, for God will exercise no degree of compulsion upon the souls of men, and no one else can, all is voluntary.

You might also read this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=450178).

you have so few posts yet you have been here so long.:confused: Oh and I don't listen to some false prophet like joey smith either, sorry. Mohammed(pbuh) was the seal of the prophets, there are no others after him.

Luke 23:39-43
...
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.


apparently Jesus doesn't think you need a dunk in magic water.

This misunderstanding is the result of a mistranslation from the original greek manuscript.

I will say something about the spirits in prison. There has been much said by modern divines about the words of Jesus (when on the cross) to the thief, saying, "This day shalt thou be with me in paradise." King James' translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise? It is a modern word: it does not answer at all to the original word that Jesus made use of. Find the original of the word paradise. You may as easily find a needle in a haymow. Here is a chance for battle, ye learned men. There is nothing in the original word in Greek from which this was taken that signifies paradise; but it was--This day thou shalt be with me in the world of spirits: then I will teach you all about it and answer your inquiries. And Peter says he went and preached to the world of spirits (spirits in prison, 1 Peter, 3rd chap. 19th verse), so that they who would receive it could have it answered by proxy by those who live on the earth, etc. (from The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith).

I will refer you also to my previous post in this thread that contains more about baptism by proxy, or baptism for the dead.

(I want you to know that I'm not trying to fight with you smunkee, I respect you greatly, I am trying to teach the gospel of Christ as I am given to understand it; and if you believe it, well and good, but if you don't believe it I will not lose any respect for you.)

It's meaningless to you and me. I live in North America, where water is plentiful. In the area where this religion originated, water is a precious commodity, life could only exist along the scarce rivers. Passing through water means a lot more when men are willing to fight and die over a puddle of tepid brown murk.

Naaa I disagree, not about the scarcity of water and what it would mean. Baptism does not have to be just water. You know them censers that the Catholic Church love so much, what do you think that is all about? Have you ever heard the phrase baptisim of fire?

Any how I'm talking about the rite and it's meaning.

Baptism is meaningless rite though really. Why do you need an actual ritual to show that you have been 'reborn' so to speak.

All baptism comes from this Pagan idea of rebirth. The old you is dead, long live the new you. You can actualy be 'reborn' without the need for the rite. When all is said and done, all rituals are only there to focus the mind on what is going on internaly, a very, very Pagan practise.

It's meaningless to you and me. I live in North America, where water is plentiful. In the area where this religion originated, water is a precious commodity, life could only exist along the scarce rivers. Passing through water means a lot more when men are willing to fight and die over a puddle of tepid brown murk.

Tried that. It took me back to the login page. Stupid forum.

Also, I'm becoming disconcerted by replies to what I say being placed above my actual comment.
then hit back again... you want the page before the login page.

LOL... sorry to add to your Disconcertment! :D

You make the same fundamental mistake many Catholics do - you look at every sentence in the bible out of context and assume it's not symbolic.

None of those passages say that if you are not splashed by a priest you cannot enter Heaven - that would be stupid.

I always wonder about the infants and children who die before they could ever hear about Jesus. Are they burning in Hell now?


As I understand it, there is a time in everyones life when they lose the innocense that children are born with. Infants are innocent so they go to heaven. Children on the other hand may or may not according to whether they have lost there innocense at the time of their death.

Go back to the post page, copy the it, and repost it.

I'm a veteran at this because me and Soheran usually end up having really long posts when we're discussing topics, and that's a must if you want to keep up the discussion. ;)


Tried that. It took me back to the login page. Stupid forum.

Also, I'm becoming disconcerted by replies to what I say being placed above my actual comment.

Tried that. It took me back to the login page. Stupid forum.

Also, I'm becoming disconcerted by replies to what I say being placed above my actual comment.


Hehehe and 'it's a jump to the left., and then a step to the ri i i iight'

you have so few posts yet you have been here so long.:confused: Oh and I don't listen to some false prophet like joey smith either, sorry. Mohammed(pbuh) was the seal of the prophets, there are no others after him.

suit yourself, but I know that as long as the earth shall stand there will be prophets upon the earth. Or else God is a changeable God, and a respector of persons. For why send prophets unto previous generations but not unto us? Do we not have just as great a need, as imperfect as humanity still is and every will be, of devine guidence as they who lived in previous eras?

I don't mean to insult your religion, but I pose you this question to ask yourself: If Allah is a God of love, and loves His children, why will he not speak to them anymore?

...then it's probably best not to try to save time by taking the Satan Turnpike.

...then let's hope Jesus is an escalator and not a staircase.

...then which 2000-years-dead icon leads to the restroom? 'Cause I really gotta make, if you know what I mean.



Ooops, did I misunderstand the game?


Heheheh say Bottle, pissed again?:eek:

...then it's probably best not to try to save time by taking the Satan Turnpike.

...then let's hope Jesus is an escalator and not a staircase.

...then which 2000-years-dead icon leads to the restroom? 'Cause I really gotta make, if you know what I mean.



Ooops, did I misunderstand the game?

Jesus Saves... and Moses gets the Rebound!

Jesus Saves, while satan lost his computer files!

Jesus Saves, Shoots and Scores!

Jesus Saves while Satan Invests!

:D

If jesus is the only way to heaven...
...then it's probably best not to try to save time by taking the Satan Turnpike.

...then let's hope Jesus is an escalator and not a staircase.

...then which 2000-years-dead icon leads to the restroom? 'Cause I really gotta make, if you know what I mean.



Ooops, did I misunderstand the game?

no offense meant, but I am not going to argue the Bible with a Mormon.

Thats a strange concept that. The gospel of Christ as I know it.

What did Jesus answer when asked what are the best commandments? It strikes me that, that is the gospel of Christ.

no offense meant, but I am not going to argue the Bible with a Mormon.

Why?

I thank you for the attempt, but I've been all the way in both directions. I lost my post, and there's no saving it.

The trick I notice that works 99.99% of the time is when you get the login page, Hit back. then cut and paste to wordpad or something... login then paste it onto a blank reply screen.

then hit back again... you want the page before the login page.

LOL... sorry to add to your Disconcertment! :D

I thank you for the attempt, but I've been all the way in both directions. I lost my post, and there's no saving it.

Hehehe and 'it's a jump to the left., and then a step to the ri i i iight'

Put your hands on your hips (Not your tits, but your hips!) and bring your knees in tiiiiight...
It's a pelvic thruuuust!!! (Group Sex, Group Sex!)

Am I the only one who was hoping for one of Soviestans' troll threads, culminating in a vicious, five-hundred page flamefest?

I'm very disappointed. :(

This misunderstanding is the result of a mistranslation from the original greek manuscript.

I will say something about the spirits in prison. There has been much said by modern divines about the words of Jesus (when on the cross) to the thief, saying, "This day shalt thou be with me in paradise." King James' translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise? It is a modern word: it does not answer at all to the original word that Jesus made use of. Find the original of the word paradise. You may as easily find a needle in a haymow. Here is a chance for battle, ye learned men. There is nothing in the original word in Greek from which this was taken that signifies paradise; but it was--This day thou shalt be with me in the world of spirits: then I will teach you all about it and answer your inquiries. And Peter says he went and preached to the world of spirits (spirits in prison, 1 Peter, 3rd chap. 19th verse), so that they who would receive it could have it answered by proxy by those who live on the earth, etc. (from The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith).

I will refer you also to my previous post in this thread that contains more about baptism by proxy, or baptism for the dead.

(I want you to know that I'm not trying to fight with you smunkee, I respect you greatly, I am trying to teach the gospel of Christ as I am given to understand it; and if you believe it, well and good, but if you don't believe it I will not lose any respect for you.)

no offense meant, but I am not going to argue the Bible with a Mormon.

Why not? You're all going to hell in the eyes of my denomination. You may as well break the ice early on...

Because... it'll... uhhh... melt... *sighs* In Hell.



Heheh it's all subjective man. If you are of the Norse persuion the hell is actualy a very cold place.

no offense meant, but I am not going to argue the Bible with a Mormon.

Why not? You're all going to hell in the eyes of my denomination. You may as well break the ice early on...

Because... it'll... uhhh... melt... *sighs* In Hell.

no offense meant, but I am not going to argue the Bible with a Mormon.

Why? most of us argue this stuff with whoever will talk back at us lol

Naaa I disagree, not about the scarcity of water and what it would mean. Baptism does not have to be just water. You know them censers that the Catholic Church love so much, what do you think that is all about? Have you ever heard the phrase baptisim of fire?

Any how I'm talking about the rite and it's meaning.

Okay, to clarify. I was raised Protestant, and in the large brain-washing facility that I was manufactured in, I was not outfitted to fight Catholics. My training was all in how to wrangle atheists, so I know next to nothing about Catholicism. I know a bit, but not nearly enough to debate anything with it.

While its meaning to you is negligible, it was likely very meaningful to those that originated the practice. Also, it's nice to have a ritual that separates those "in" the church from those "outta" the church. Me, I don't place an ounce of stock in baptism.

Luke 23:39-43
And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.


apparently Jesus doesn't think you need a dunk in magic water.

Really? Where does it say that he wasn't baptized already by John? Thousands had been baptized to make ready for the coming of Christ, as Jesus himself had been Baptized. There is no evidence whatsoever that this person had not been one of the multitude that heard the call of John...

Regardless of whether he was baptized before, or not, that man was himself buried with Christ in fact, not just via water with Christ, but by being crucified with him in person he was buried with Christ directly. We, not being crucified with Christ in person are buried into Christ through baptism.

Okay, to clarify. I was raised Protestant, and in the large brain-washing facility that I was manufactured in, I was not outfitted to fight Catholics. My training was all in how to wrangle atheists, so I know next to nothing about Catholicism. I know a bit, but not nearly enough to debate anything with it.

While its meaning to you is negligible, it was likely very meaningful to those that originated the practice. Also, it's nice to have a ritual that separates those "in" the church from those "outta" the church. Me, I don't place an ounce of stock in baptism.

Yeah fair enough. Although my point was more one about the outer ritual of baptism being a Pagan practice designed to get your brain into the correct mode of thought. In fact this is true of any ritual.

It just isn't needed and I think it sorta runs counter to what any belife in any Christian faith is about.

Baptism Is about killing the old you, and being reborn as the new you. The symbolisim of ritual(water representing the womb ect...) is just a show, you don't need to do it. It harkens back to pre-christain days, and according to Christian doctarine, I guess may even count as idolitry.

how do you know that Paul wasn't a half man half zebra?

Lol that is closed to being siged :)

Really? Where does it say that he wasn't baptized already by John? Thousands had been baptized to make ready for the coming of Christ, as Jesus himself had been Baptized. There is no evidence whatsoever that this person had not been one of the multitude that heard the call of John...

Regardless of whether he was baptized before, or not, that man was himself buried with Christ in fact, not just via water with Christ, but by being crucified with him in person he was buried with Christ directly. We, not being crucified with Christ in person are buried into Christ through baptism.

how do you know that Paul wasn't a half man half zebra?

Am I the only one who was hoping for one of Soviestans' troll threads, culminating in a vicious, five-hundred page flamefest?

I'm very disappointed. :(

You want flaming? We could start flaming. Uhh... Your mother.

usually we all accept the same facts, my experience with Mormons is that to argue the Bible they want me to accept their books as "scriptural evidence", it's pointless.

I can argue Christianity with you (an atheist) because you will for the most part play along, it's not like you get frustrated and say "well, God doesn't exist so I win by default".


Heh I asked a Mormon once why is it that they only send the Good looking youth to witnessing?

He denyied, I could't belive, good looking bloke like him standing there with some all American blonde stunner. The cheek of the fella I tell ya.:eek:

Why? most of us argue this stuff with whoever will talk back at us lol

usually we all accept the same facts, my experience with Mormons is that to argue the Bible they want me to accept their books as "scriptural evidence", it's pointless.

I can argue Christianity with you (an atheist) because you will for the most part play along, it's not like you get frustrated and say "well, God doesn't exist so I win by default".

how do you know that Paul wasn't a half man half zebra?

I previously quoted Paul and Peter, I suppose Peter is no good either then eh?

Whenver one needs to pick some scriptures and omit others to attempt to make their theology make sense with the scriptures, it's a good first sign that their theology is likely wrong.

Ah. I see where you're coming from. You're right, shock of shocks. A lot of christian beliefs and rituals, especially Catholic ones, come from pagan beliefs and rituals. Yule logs, Easter bunnies and eggs, Santa Claus... Christianity has borrowed from many different religions and cultures in an effort to become more palatable.

I dunno about idolatry, but I'm not the kind of guy to worry about idol worship. I'd have a little statue of Cthulhu to pray to if I could afford it, just to be perverse.

Ahhh yes the many tentacled one! WATCH OUT IT'S BEHIND YOU, NOOOOO DON'T LOOK!

Ahhh damn well there goes your brain!:D

Yeah fair enough. Although my point was more one about the outer ritual of baptism being a Pagan practice designed to get your brain into the correct mode of thought. In fact this is true of any ritual.

It just isn't needed and I think it sorta runs counter to what any belife in any Christian faith is about.

Baptism Is about killing the old you, and being reborn as the new you. The symbolisim of ritual(water representing the womb ect...) is just a show, you don't need to do it. It harkens back to pre-christain days, and according to Christian doctarine, I guess may even count as idolitry.


Ah. I see where you're coming from. You're right, shock of shocks. A lot of christian beliefs and rituals, especially Catholic ones, come from pagan beliefs and rituals. Yule logs, Easter bunnies and eggs, Santa Claus... Christianity has borrowed from many different religions and cultures in an effort to become more palatable.

I dunno about idolatry, but I'm not the kind of guy to worry about idol worship. I'd have a little statue of Cthulhu to pray to if I could afford it, just to be perverse.

I previously quoted Paul and Peter, I suppose Peter is no good either then eh?

Oh, well that's because it's a widely-known fact that Peter was a 50-lb, flightless, albino mosquito.

I'm kidding. Put down the nail gun.

I previously quoted Paul and Peter, I suppose Peter is no good either then eh?
I don't take what they say literally, meaning they could be talking about circumcision of the spirit, which would have nothing to do with magic water.

Whenver one needs to pick some scriptures and omit others to attempt to make their theology make sense with the scriptures, it's a good first sign that their theology is likely wrong.

whenever one has to add to scripture to make it work for their own idea, that is a sign their theology is wrong.

As I understand it, there is a time in everyones life when they lose the innocense that children are born with. Infants are innocent so they go to heaven. Children on the other hand may or may not according to whether they have lost there innocense at the time of their death.

As you understand it... Ah yes, but does the Bible support that? Many of us, as Christians, refer to something we call the "Age of Accountability." But -- does the Bible actually speak of this? No, it does not. There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of babies dying and being given a free pass into heaven.

Do I believe that babies who die go to heaven? I don't know. This is an issue I've struggled with for years. Do I want to believe that they do? That's a big yes, but I don't that they do for sure. In fact, there is probably more evidence to the contrary in our Scriptures.

While the Scriptures do not speak about an "Age of Accountability" here is what they do cover:

1. There is none righteous, no not one.
2. For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
3. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me. (could it be that we are born separated from God?)

I can list several more verses, but is there really any need? So where does the "Age of Accountability" argument come from.

Well, I've come to believe that it comes from the same thing I spoke of earlier and that is our desire for that to be the truth. I also think it comes from our knowing that God is fair and just. In doing so, we sometimes are guilty of placing what we feel to be fair and just as the true meaning of the words and assume that God must follow our thought pattern. The truth of the matter is that God decides what is fair and just and it isn't a matter of what we believe nor want to be true.

As I said, I'm torn on this issue. I desperately hope and pray that babies who are taken prematurely are transported to heaven, but I'm starting to believe that the opposite of what I desire is actually true. In fact, it is this cold, chilling possibility that makes me hate abortion even more. If there is no "Age of Accountability" and a child receives his/her Spirit at conception, then not only does abortion keep them from living a life, but it is sentencing the child to hell.

Scary thoughts indeed.

I don't take what they say literally, meaning they could be talking about circumcision of the spirit, which would have nothing to do with magic water.

How far to you allow that to go? The Gnostics began to go so far that they said Jesus wasn't literally resurrected at all, and some even said that he wasn't literally killed on the cross at all, and some say that Jesus wasn't literally a real person at all…

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


whenever one has to add to scripture to make it work for their own idea, that is a sign their theology is wrong.

I'm not adding anything, I'm only repeating what it says, you are the one that says it doesn’t mean what it actually says.

Even sprinkle by the blood to be cleansed…
Hebrews 9:19-22
When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep." In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Without the shedding of the blood there is no forgiveness, without burial there is no resurrection. Baptism in Christ prepares us for our resurrection through his resurrection.

The primary reason to Baptize though is because Jesus told us to do it…

Matthew 28: 16-20
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

How far to you allow that to go? The Gnostics began to go so far that they said Jesus wasn't literally resurrected at all, and some even said that he wasn't literally killed on the cross at all, and some say that Jesus wasn't literally a real person at all…

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



I'm not adding anything, I'm only repeating what it says, you are the one that says it doesn’t mean what it actually says.

Even sprinkle by the blood to be cleansed…
Hebrews 9:19-22
When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep." In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Without the shedding of the blood there is no forgiveness, without burial there is no resurrection. Baptism in Christ prepares us for our resurrection through his resurrection.

The primary reason to Baptize though is because Jesus told us to do it…

Matthew 28: 16-20
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

but i don't get it? wht has no-one mentioned willy the worm? he is the creator of god, after all.

How far to you allow that to go? The Gnostics began to go so far that they said Jesus wasn't literally resurrected at all, and some even said that he wasn't literally killed on the cross at all, and some say that Jesus wasn't literally a real person at all…
How far do you take your "everything is literal"?

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
do you really think he is talking about magic water?



I'm not adding anything, I'm only repeating what it says, you are the one that says it doesn’t mean what it actually says.
really? where does it actually say this stuff? Really? Where does it say that he wasn't baptized already by John? Thousands had been baptized to make ready for the coming of Christ, as Jesus himself had been Baptized. There is no evidence whatsoever that this person had not been one of the multitude that heard the call of John...

Regardless of whether he was baptized before, or not, that man was himself buried with Christ in fact, not just via water with Christ, but by being crucified with him in person he was buried with Christ directly. We, not being crucified with Christ in person are buried into Christ through baptism.

Even sprinkle by the blood to be cleansed…
Hebrews 9:19-22
When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep." In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
so, we need actual blood then? not magic water?

Without the shedding of the blood there is no forgiveness, without burial there is no resurrection. Baptism in Christ prepares us for our resurrection through his resurrection.
magic water? so Jesus' sacrifice was not enough? now we need magic water as well?

The primary reason to Baptize though is because Jesus told us to do it…

Matthew 28: 16-20
Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
[/quote]
I agree, that's why I said we do it out of obedience. I do not think that the actual act has anything magic about it, it's the change in your heart that matters.

How far do you take your "everything is literal"?

When it's set in plain language and repeated by more than one source as an instruction for behavior, so that there can be no misunderstanding, that’s pretty literal. Why read the book at all if it can’t be trusted for even simple instruction?


do you really think he is talking about magic water?

Yes. 1 John 5:6-8
This is he who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

Do you think Jesus was baptized in real water? Do you think he 'really washed the disciples’ feet with real water' or was everything about the Jesus’ acts figurative and not literal? Did Jesus really resurrect Lazarus?


really? where does it actually say this stuff?

That was a response to your insertion into the scripture, not my insertion into scripute. You tried to say that it said what you wanted it to say, you acted like it said that the criminal was not baptized, but it doesn't say anything at all about baptism. You inserted your assumption about not being baptized into the story. I simply pointed out by example how it was just as reasonable to think that the man was baptized as not. Thus your verse did not negate the other verses and neither did it say what you said it did, you said Jesus didn’t think a person needed to be baptized buy Jesus didn’t say anything about baptism in that verse you used.


so, we need actual blood then? not magic water?
Yes, we need Jesus’ blood. We are marked by the sacrifice blood when we are baptized.


magic water? so Jesus' sacrifice was not enough? now we need magic water as well?

The blood of Christ is the 'magic', the water marks Jesus' sacrifice on the baptized person. To join in with Christ's burial and his sacrifice one must be baptized into it. It is not two different things.


I agree, that's why I said we do it out of obedience. I do not think that the actual act has anything magic about it, it's the change in your heart that matters.

So, to extrapolate from your non-baptism salvation theology, a person saves themselves by changing their own heart? Why would they need Jesus sacrifice then? What did his resurrection do for them if the spirit can simply change our hearts?

No, we need to join with Jesus or else we can’t tag along at all. We mark our bodies as belonging to Christ by baptizing them, until then we are like unbranded cattle on a free range, there for the taking and belonging to no one… We must belong to Christ to be resurrected in Christ. We become branded by Christ via baptism into his burial and resurrection. Jesus essentially told us to brand his flock.

Did all the people before him go to straight hell and not pass go or collect $200?

That's a major problem with Christian Theology. Supposedly, Jesus descended into Hell and rescued the fathers of the Jewish people after his crucifixtion, but that story isn't in the Bible but is only implied.

Another huge problem is the fact that billions of good people are condemned to hell for not believing that some poor Jewish mystic who preeched love and happiness was the "Son of God".

Soviestan, you're MUSLIM. You shouldn't criticise any religious system ever.

He's a whole lot more rational about religon than many Christian fundies on this board, and in fact I think he's slowly making a turn around back to moral relativism, this time centered on his Muslim faith.

When it's set in plain language and repeated by more than one source as an instruction for behavior, so that there can be no misunderstanding, that’s pretty literal. Why read the book at all if it can’t be trusted for even simple instruction?



Yes. 1 John 5:6-8
This is he who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

Do you think Jesus was baptized in real water? Do you think he 'really washed the disciples’ feet with real water' or was everything about the Jesus’ acts figurative and not literal? Did Jesus really resurrect Lazarus?



That was a response to your insertion into the scripture, not my insertion into scripute. You tried to say that it said what you wanted it to say, you acted like it said that the criminal was not baptized, but it doesn't say anything at all about baptism. You inserted your assumption about not being baptized into the story. I simply pointed out by example how it was just as reasonable to think that the man was baptized as not. Thus your verse did not negate the other verses and neither did it say what you said it did, you said Jesus didn’t think a person needed to be baptized buy Jesus didn’t say anything about baptism in that verse you used.


Yes, we need Jesus’ blood. We are marked by the sacrifice blood when we are baptized.



The blood of Christ is the 'magic', the water marks Jesus' sacrifice on the baptized person. To join in with Christ's burial and his sacrifice one must be baptized into it. It is not two different things.



So, to extrapolate from your non-baptism salvation theology, a person saves themselves by changing their own heart? Why would they need Jesus sacrifice then? What did his resurrection do for them if the spirit can simply change our hearts?

No, we need to join with Jesus or else we can’t tag along at all. We mark our bodies as belonging to Christ by baptizing them, until then we are like unbranded cattle on a free range, there for the taking and belonging to no one… We must belong to Christ to be resurrected in Christ. We become branded by Christ via baptism into his burial and resurrection. Jesus essentially told us to brand his flock.
http://www.dyeager.org/articles/baptism.php

Thought just crossed my mind.. Am I the only one who thinks half the various Bible versions look like a product of Babelfish?

suit yourself, but I know that as long as the earth shall stand there will be prophets upon the earth. Or else God is a changeable God, and a respector of persons. For why send prophets unto previous generations but not unto us? Do we not have just as great a need, as imperfect as humanity still is and every will be, of devine guidence as they who lived in previous eras?

I don't mean to insult your religion, but I pose you this question to ask yourself: If Allah is a God of love, and loves His children, why will he not speak to them anymore?

lol mormons. There's no reason for Allah to send anymore prophets when he sent his complete word in the Qur'an. Its not something that needs updating every generation, its perfect the way it is.

Obviously not, otherwise we wouldn't have all these different groups arguing over its meanings.yes you do. or are you saying those extremists who are claiming to do things according to Allah's will are actually correct in their thinking.

and why such violence between Shiite and Sunni muslims?

lol mormons. There's no reason for Allah to send anymore prophets when he sent his complete word in the Qur'an. Its not something that needs updating every generation, its perfect the way it is.

Obviously not, otherwise we wouldn't have all these different groups arguing over its meanings.

lol mormons. There's no reason for Allah to send anymore prophets when he sent his complete word in the Qur'an. Its not something that needs updating every generation, its perfect the way it is.

I know this may sound blasphemous to you, but I don't think that anyone has, or ever will know what (the) god(dess(e(s))) will is/are. ;)

If aforementioned deities do exist, he/she/they/it hasn't provided enough reasoning or prophets for any person to even remotely comprehend his/her/their/its plans. Look at all the religious wars. I think we all need to just get along and try to understand one another before anyone decides to try to understand the divine.

yes you do. or are you saying those extremists who are claiming to do things according to Allah's will are actually correct in their thinking.

and why such violence between Shiite and Sunni muslims?

I'm saying that because there are different groups with different interpretations of the same book, it can hardly be considered perfect.

I'm saying that because there are different groups with different interpretations of the same book, it can hardly be considered perfect.


Add in the extra books (or religious texts, or oral traditions) and the lack of coherence even within individual works and you have a good portion of the reason why I refute the presence of any deity. It's too damn messy to all come from the same place.

http://www.dyeager.org/articles/baptism.php

That site makes a fine argument, but it failed when it botched it's conclusion that the criminal was not baptized. It projects it's own belief onto the criminal and then concludes that it must be so since he was not baptized while on his own cross so it asserts he could not have been baptized. There are multiple assumptions projected by that interpretation of that story, another one was that the man had to of had a change of heart while on the cross, but where does it say that? The man could have had the change of heart many weeks, or years, before and was being punished for a crime he committed even before that conversion... The scripture does not say he was not baptized, it does not answer the question at all, so no conclusion can be made from that scenario and the argument on that site fails because it used a false dichotomy at that point.

But here's a link for you...
http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/wa_baptism.pdf

Clarification of what I’m saying, I’m not trying to make it too judgmental; I do not consider this topic a defining factor of Christian and non Christian, I do not attempt to divide and segregate believers with non-believers because of what they do or don't believe about baptism. I am not wagging my finger at anyone. Simply saying that the scripture is clear that we are supposed to be doing it (baptizing ALL Christians), but the modern day Baptist theology has many of today’s Christians convinced that their own faith saves them, as if they could save themselves through their own intellectual understanding of what they think faith is. That is a vanity. Christ's mercy and Grace alone save us, or nothing does.

The babies, the childish, the mentally handicapped persons etc., may never have a moment to intellectualize even a minimum standard of understanding the Christian theology, and the Baptist would have us never baptize these people because they cannot confess. Nonsense, that is not scriptural, there is no litmus test to fail, there is nothing that says a human being can not be allowed to be baptized, but the Baptists believe that there is a litmus test for being allowed to be baptized. That is not scriptural. They claim infants aren’t baptized in the scriptures, I disagree, I read entire families being baptized with no reservations. But I’ll tell you what, there are no Christian infant dedications in the scripture but that doesn’t stop them from substituting baptism with dedication…

Perhaps that FUD series should look in the mirror there. Why invent a cerimony to dedicate a baby and lay hands on it and maybe even anoint it with oil, but then be too afraid to sprinkle some water on it too because baptism could somehow be a bad thing for them? :rolleyes:

Soviestan, you're MUSLIM. You shouldn't criticise any religious system ever.

So you're saying that Islam is automatically inferior to any other religion? I'm sorry, but any credibility you might ever have had with me just flew out the window.

Wilgrove explains Catholic Dogma relating to Limbo

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that there is a place for those who weren't bad enough to go to Hell, but aren't exactly good enough to go to Heaven. Those people go to purgatory. Purgatory is basically limbo, you stay there until God decides that you have done your penance and allows you to enter Heaven.

Purgatory is not mentioned in the Bible, so the doctrine of Purgatory was fabricated by the Catholic Church. The people who lived before Jesus could also go to heaven, because in the Old Testament, God had promised a Messiah to save them from sin. That obviously wouldn't help Adam unless it applied to him. Just as Christians today believe in the past event of Jesus' death, the old Jews believed in his future death, although now Jews are looking for a political Messiah instead of a spiritual one. As for the non-Christians, the Bible doesn't explicitly say, since the term "Christian" is not used. Jesus said that he was the way to heaven, but he did not say that he couldn't be the way for someone who had never heard of him. Salvation for a Christian is mainly based on his attitude towards the idea of sin, that he is guilty and it was by his free will. When a person realizes that and repents, I don't see any reason why Jesus' death wouldn't atone for them. Of course many Christians don't believe that because that was not specifically discussed in the Bible, but I think that God gave us a brain for a reason.

No. Because God does not exist.

Add in the extra books (or religious texts, or oral traditions) and the lack of coherence even within individual works and you have a good portion of the reason why I refute the presence of any deity. It's too damn messy to all come from the same place.what do you mean "any" deity? for which other deities than the Jewish deity does the "information" come from just one source?

I'm saying that because there are different groups with different interpretations of the same book, it can hardly be considered perfect.

Should be noted though that the main difference between Sunni and Shi'ia is not so much their interpetion of the Qur'an as it is a political one.

I've always wondered how God handled the Native Americans/Chinese for those few thousand years or so before the Europeans arrived...I mean...why didn't he appear to them? Could they really be blamed for not believing in a Christian god if the dude didn't even show up?

You're applying logic to religion. That's like trying to reason with politicians.

I've always wondered how God handled the Native Americans/Chinese for those few thousand years or so before the Europeans arrived...I mean...why didn't he appear to them? Could they really be blamed for not believing in a Christian god if the dude didn't even show up?

He wasn't obligated to reveal Himself through special revelation as He chose to with the Israelites. But He did reveal Himself through nature. And the peoples chose to reject Him still. And by their sin, they earned the eternal fire.

Romans 1:18-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201:18-25;&version=47;)

I've always wondered how God handled the Native Americans/Chinese for those few thousand years or so before the Europeans arrived...I mean...why didn't he appear to them? Could they really be blamed for not believing in a Christian god if the dude didn't even show up?
Well, the Europeans managed to do that pretty easily. Those damn Chinese and Native Americans, if the Europeans can do it, they can too. :p

"I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME." -- Jesus Christ (John 14:6)

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-only-way.html

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/

"I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME." -- Jesus Christ (John 14:6)

If you only have to accept Jesus Christ as your savior to get into heaven, why does you're sexual orientation matter? If, essentially, everything you do is irrelevant in terms of being saved, why does stuff like that matter?

Answers on a postcard.

If you only have to accept Jesus Christ as your savior to get into heaven, why does you're sexual orientation matter? If, essentially, everything you do is irrelevant in terms of being saved, why does stuff like that matter?

Answers on a postcard.

Well, if you truly have faith in Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you will want to please Him, right? Just like any other relationship.

And how do you know what pleases God? Through Scripture.

If you only have to accept Jesus Christ as your savior to get into heaven, why does you're sexual orientation matter? If, essentially, everything you do is irrelevant in terms of being saved, why does stuff like that matter?

Answers on a postcard.


We could speculate forever on this and it would mean nothing. That is a question that you must ask Jesus himself. As much as I would like to help you, that is beyond my expertise. He is always there, he is always listening, speak to him ... ask for the answer/s you seek.

"I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME." -- Jesus Christ (John 14:6)

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-only-way.html

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/

wow so you dont even dare to type out your own answer to the question. you dont even dare to quote the relevant passages in the pages you link to. did you dare even to try thinking about the implications of the question of what happened to the righteous people who died before jesus?

"I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME." -- Jesus Christ (John 14:6)

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-only-way.html

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/
None of which helps me in the least, since I am not a man.

Before Jesus was born the way to heaven was directly through God. Now that Jesus has been crucified, the way to heaven is through baptism and repentance. Getting your name down in the book of life through baptism and asking Jesus to be your Lord and Savior is the standard now.

None of which helps me in the least, since I am not a man.


Jesus isn't speaking of just man in this scripture, rather mankind ... so it is the same regardless of your sex.

wow so you dont even dare to type out your own answer to the question. you dont even dare to quote the relevant passages in the pages you link to. did you dare even to try thinking about the implications of the question of what happened to the righteous people who died before jesus?

This is the only answer that matters, all of our opinions are just that. This is Jesus' own words, thats why I posted them in red. Now it is up to each person here to decide which side of the fense they wish to be on. The righteous people who died before jesus will be saved by Jesus just as the righteous people after his life will be. If I may be so bold, each of us here including myself, have enough to be concerned about where our individual lives are concerned. So make sure of your own walk is right and allow Jesus to take care of the rest.

This is Jesus' own words, thats why I posted them in red.

That is the translation of a transcription of Jesus' words according to the writer. Jesus did not speak English, nor did he write that passage himself.

I like the red text idea.

That is the translation of a transcription of Jesus' words according to the writer. Jesus did not speak English, nor did he write that passage himself.

I like the red text idea.


I am not going to argue all the little points, the scripture says it is Jesus' words. I believe that, I believe in Jesus teachings, each of you must now decide what you believe. That is what freewill is all about.

This is the only answer that matters, all of our opinions are just that. This is Jesus' own words, thats why I posted them in red. Now it is up to each person here to decide which side of the fense they wish to be on. The righteous people who died before jesus will be saved by Jesus just as the righteous people after his life will be. If I may be so bold, each of us here including myself, have enough to be concerned about where our individual lives are concerned. So make sure of your own walk is right and allow Jesus to take care of the rest.

so you didnt read the OP, you just jumped in to do a bit of prostelitizing?

what of those who never had that chance to hear the words of jesus, whether those who lived before jesus or those who live in remote areas and have never heard of christianity at all?

I am not going to argue all the little points, the scripture says it is Jesus' words.

But are they the same words in the original text ? I at least assume you verified some of the more important passages of the Bible before you decided to base your life on a translation made by imperfect humans ?

The muslems definately have a point when they add a "a lot is lost in translation" disclaimer in front of every translated Qu'ran.

so you didnt read the OP, you just jumped in to do a bit of prostelitizing?

what of those who never had that chance to hear the words of jesus, whether those who lived before jesus or those who live in remote areas and have never heard of christianity at all?


All will hear at least once before the Lord returns, the question is will any of them listen or will they just argue with the person trying to tell them.

But are they the same words in the original text ?
The muslems definately have a point when they add a "a lot is lost in translation" disclaimer in front of every translated Qu'ran.


The Qu'ran has nothing to do with Christianity, so I must assume that you wish to confuse the issues.

so you didnt read the OP, you just jumped in to do a bit of prostelitizing?

what of those who never had that chance to hear the words of jesus, whether those who lived before jesus or those who live in remote areas and have never heard of christianity at all?Yes, what about those? What about those who lived in ancient times ever since the dawn of civilization? Those before the Jews fabricated their jealous god out of Yah, the son of which Yeshua then claimed to be?

I am not going to argue all the little points, the scripture says it is Jesus' words. I believe that, I believe in Jesus teachings, each of you must now decide what you believe. That is what freewill is all about.

Arguing the little points? Jesus is supposed to have spoken Aramaic - you are not reading Aramaic, thus you are not reading Jesus' words. At the very best you might be reading what someone thought Jesus might mean.

All will hear at least once before the Lord returns, the question is will any of them listen or will they just argue with the person trying to tell them.

you believe in the conversion of the dead? that the dead can be redeemed?

The Qu'ran has nothing to do with Christianity, so I must assume that you wish to confuse the issues.

Nope. I am pointing out that quite a large group of believers has no problem whatsoever with admitting that a translation of their holy book is not the same as the original.

I am just wondering why most Christians vehemently disagree with that concept.

Aside: according to Islam the Qu'ran is meant as a correction on the Torah and new testament, since they had become too corrupted. Saying the books have nothing to do with eachother is therefor wrong.

Yes, what about those? What about those who lived in ancient times ever since the dawn of civilization? Those before the Jews fabricated their jealous god out of Yah, the son of which Yeshua then claimed to be?


Did you read post 220?

The Qu'ran has nothing to do with Christianity, so I must assume that you wish to confuse the issues.The Qur'an has a lot to do with Christianity, although not with translations of Christian texts.

Arguing the little points? Jesus is supposed to have spoken Aramaic - you are not reading Aramaic, thus you are not reading Jesus' words. At the very best you might be reading what someone thought Jesus might mean.


They are his words non the less, translated yes, but still his words.

Did you read post 220?Unfortunately I have read that rubbish, yes.

They are his words non the less, translated yes, but still his words.That's highly unlikely.

They are his words non the less, translated yes, but still his words.

I assume you've checked that?

Compared the English translations to the original Greek (and the Aramaic, and the Hebrew)?

Or - have you just done what Jesus warned against, and listened to the modern day Pharisees telling their interpretations of 'the law'?

you believe in the conversion of the dead? that the dead can be redeemed?

No I don't believe in the conversion of the dead after Christ lived. The rightous dead don't need to be converted, because they believed in the coming son of god. So Jesus will save them too because of there belief. I hope you all can stop worrying about all this and get more concerned with your own life and what you believe for yourself.

They are his words non the less, translated yes, but still his words.

his words as written down at least 60 years after his death by someone who never met jesus who was writing a "highly literate and symbolic" version of the christ story.

not all that likely to be exactly what he said if he ever said anything like it at all.

his words as written down at least 60 years after his death by someone who never met jesus who was writing a "highly literate and symbolic" version of the christ story.

not all that likely to be exactly what he said if he ever said anything like it at all.

Indeed - if I wanted to argue about what someone was meaning to say, I'd want to be damned sure I had their actual words in front of me. I certainly wouldn't put blind faith in what someone who had never met that person, thought that person might have said...

Nope. I am pointing out that quite a large group of believers has no problem whatsoever with admitting that a translation of their holy book is not the same as the original.

I am just wondering why most Christians vehemently disagree with that concept.

Aside: according to Islam the Qu'ran is meant as a correction on the Torah and new testament, since they had become too corrupted. Saying the books have nothing to do with eachother is therefor wrong.

I didn't say I disagreed with it. That is where faith in Christ to work out the details comes in. Regardless of any changes that may or maynot of been made. The true author knows what the original text said, and he will take care of the people who made the changes just as is promised in the Revelations. So have faith in Jesus to work out the details.

his words as written down at least 60 years after his death by someone who never met jesus who was writing a "highly literate and symbolic" version of the christ story.

not all that likely to be exactly what he said if he ever said anything like it at all.


See post 235

All will hear at least once before the Lord returns, the question is will any of them listen or will they just argue with the person trying to tell them.

No I don't believe in the conversion of the dead after Christ lived. The rightous dead don't need to be converted, because they believed in the coming son of god. So Jesus will save them too because of there belief. I hope you all can stop worrying about all this and get more concerned with your own life and what you believe for yourself.

so thinking that the messiah (Not the son of god as jesus claimed to be) is going to come is enough to have gotten the pre-jesus jews into heaven? what about the greeks who never heard of the jewish belief in a messiah? are they just shit out of luck?

so thinking that the messiah (Not the son of god as jesus claimed to be) is going to come is enough to have gotten the pre-jesus jews into heaven? what about the greeks who never heard of the jewish belief in a messiah? are they just shit out of luck?


Try reading the post already here before posting huh.

Indeed - if I wanted to argue about what someone was meaning to say, I'd want to be damned sure I had their actual words in front of me. I certainly wouldn't put blind faith in what someone who had never met that person, thought that person might have said...

especially since john isnt a straighfoward telling of the story. its full of symbolic references and gnostic concepts. im not sure it was ever meant to be taken literally in any way.

so thinking that the messiah (Not the son of god as jesus claimed to be) is going to come is enough to have gotten the pre-jesus jews into heaven? what about the greeks who never heard of the jewish belief in a messiah? are they just shit out of luck?


That is up to Jesus I would think, but being that God wishes no man to go to hell. I would have to say that I have faith he has a plan for those people. Why are you so worried about it. Worry about your own relationship with him, that is more productive then worrying about something we have no control over.

Try reading the post already here before posting huh.

im trying but you are making it very difficult

first you say that everyone is going to get a direct message from jesus, then you say that its the messianic jews.

neither of which seem to make sense since there were untold millions who died before jesus was even born who never got any message whatsoever.

so answer the question. what about the pre-jesus greeks? what about the jews who were observant but werent concerned with the eventual coming of the messiah?

That is up to Jesus I would think, but being that God wishes no man to go to hell. I would have to say that I have faith he has a plan for those people. Why are you so worried about it. Worry about your own relationship with him, that is more productive then worrying about something we have no control over.

because THAT IS THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD

so thinking that the messiah (Not the son of god as jesus claimed to be) is going to come is enough to have gotten the pre-jesus jews into heaven? what about the greeks who never heard of the jewish belief in a messiah? are they just shit out of luck?

And, of course, the logic falls down even further - because:

1) The Jews didn't think Messiah would be bringing some kind of 'spiritual' salvation. They were expecting an earthly king who would kick the asses of all those who gave Israel crap.

and 2) The Jews are still waiting for Messiah - which kind of means he can't have come yet...

I didn't say I disagreed with it. That is where faith in Christ to work out the details comes in. Regardless of any changes that may or maynot of been made. The true author knows what the original text said, and he will take care of the people who made the changes just as is promised in the Revelations. So have faith in Jesus to work out the details.

See post 235

sooooo youre saying that you dont take the gospels as the literal words of jesus?

And, of course, the logic falls down even further - because:

1) The Jews didn't think Messiah would be bringing some kind of 'spiritual' salvation. They were expecting an earthly king who would kick the asses of all those who gave Israel crap.

and 2) The Jews are still waiting for Messiah - which kind of means he can't have come yet...

which means to me that logically those jews who are still waiting for the messiah must be able to get into heaven if those pre-jesus jews did.

not that i think that jews dont get into heaven. but i suspect that kormanthor thinks that jews dont get into heaven.

I didn't say I disagreed with it. That is where faith in Christ to work out the details comes in. Regardless of any changes that may or maynot of been made. The true author knows what the original text said, and he will take care of the people who made the changes just as is promised in the Revelations. So have faith in Jesus to work out the details.

Revelation 22:18-9 applies to the book of Revelation. The Gospels are not the book of Revelation.

because THAT IS THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD


It may be the topic of this thread, but does that change that anything. We can talk about it forever, it is what it is. Believe it or not.

which means to me that logically those jews who are still waiting for the messiah must be able to get into heaven if those pre-jesus jews did.

not that i think that jews dont get into heaven. but i suspect that kormanthor thinks that jews dont get into heaven.

I'm not sure how it would work out... 'Israel' is still waiting for Messiah, which means Jesus was a pretender, which means the New Testament is heretical and apostate.

I doubt that Israel is worried about the 'Christian' ideas of 'heaven', 'hell' or 'salvation'... they've got their deal made with Jehovah, and aren't going to be worried about what some wannabe messiah tried to teach.

If anyone should be worried, it should be all those that came AFTER Jesus, since they have been lead away from true relationships with Jehovah.

Revelation 22:18-9 applies to the book of Revelation. The Gospels are not the book of Revelation.

The Revelations does explain the consequences of making changes to scripture.

It may be the topic of this thread, but does that change that anything. We can talk about it forever, it is what it is. Believe it or not.

I 'choose' not to believe it. No contemporary, independent evidence, and yet we are supposed to believe in miracles? I think not.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and - in the case of this 'Jesus' fellow, we get somewhere between little evidence, and no evidence.