NationStates Jolt Archive

This is an old story (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/02/world/middleeast/02medic.html?ex=1169787600&en=683fc824f7762f8a&ei=5070)--from last November--but I didn't see it then and it hit me so hard I wanted to mention it here. That's the beauty of the blogs when they're at their best; they help you find stuff you missed.

The story is about a corpsman serving in Iraq, and it's the kind of story that really awakens you to just what those men and women are dealing with over there. In this case, it's not the story of a person doing the shooting and killing--it's a story of dealing with the aftermath. And sometimes training those men and women to deal with that aftermath is pretty traumatizing too.

Petty Officer Kirby began to list the schools he had attended to be ready for this moment. Some he had paid for himself, he said, to be extra-prepared.

In one course, an advanced trauma treatment program he had taken before deploying, he said, the instructors gave each corpsman an anesthetized pig.

“The idea is to work with live tissue,” he said. “You get a pig and you keep it alive. And every time I did something to help him, they would wound him again. So you see what shock does, and what happens when more wounds are received by a wounded creature.”

“My pig?” he said. “They shot him twice in the face with a 9-millimeter pistol, and then six times with an AK-47 and then twice with a 12-gauge shotgun. And then he was set on fire.”

“I kept him alive for 15 hours,” he said. “That was my pig.”

“That was my pig,” he said.

15 hours? Holy shit dude!

That should be his pig.

WTF? Thats legal?

This is so going to become a discussion on cruelty to animals.

:(

WTF? Thats legal?

Apparently, in the past, these types of experiments have been done on dogs and monkeys as well, and while I recognize the cruelty of these experiments, I also have to say that I have less of a problem with it than I do with animal experimentation for stupid shit like shampoo.

WTF? Thats legal?
WTF indeed.

This is so going to become a discussion on cruelty to animals. Well, it better.

WTF? Thats legal?

The animal was anesthetized, so yes. As long as the relevant review board decided that the learning experience was necessary, and all possible steps were taken to prevent pain, it's legal.

... I, on the other hand, have no problem with it at all. Remember, the pigs would do the same to us if they had a chance.

The animal was anesthetized, so yes.

So, seeing how I'm not medically trained, can someone explain to me how you can exhibit shock symptoms when you're under anesthestics?

Christ on a stick.

That's disgusting. I understand why they are doing it, and it's still disgusting.

Apparently, in the past, these types of experiments have been done on dogs and monkeys as well, and while I recognize the cruelty of these experiments, I also have to say that I have less of a problem with it than I do with animal experimentation for stupid shit like shampoo.

I'd much rather they shampoo an animal than shoot it in the face :p

j/k I know what you are saying.

The animal was anesthetized, so yes. As long as the relevant review board decided that the learning experience was necessary, and all possible steps were taken to prevent pain, it's legal.

I find this to be very sad but at least the guy is learnign how to save lives and is getting first hand experience that is necessary on the battlefield.

So, seeing how I'm not medically trained, can someone explain to me how you can exhibit shock symptoms when you're under anesthestics?

Isn't the point to deal with trauma...upcoming, likely trauma...by 'getting used to it' via the wounds dealt to the pig?

So, seeing how I'm not medically trained, can someone explain to me how you can exhibit shock symptoms when you're under anesthestics?

You won't exhibit *all* of the symptoms, but your body will have shock reactions. The chemical and systemic reactions that are involved will still be there, and those are what you actually have to treat.

Isn't the point to deal with trauma...upcoming, likely trauma...by 'getting used to it' via the wounds dealt to the pig?
Well, in a way, I'd guess so, but from what the OP said it seemed to be far more about the medical, technical aspects of the wounded person, not about the mental state of the person treating them:


“The idea is to work with live tissue,” he said. “You get a pig and you keep it alive. And every time I did something to help him, they would wound him again. So you see what shock does, and what happens when more wounds are received by a wounded creature.”

It's not his mental shock or trauma it's about, it's the physical shock and trauma injuires of the pig.

You won't exhibit *all* of the symptoms, but your body will have shock reactions. The chemical and systemic reactions that are involved will still be there, and those are what you actually have to treat. Ah, okay.

Two legs bad. Two legs bad!

Great book. :D

... I, on the other hand, have no problem with it at all. Remember, the pigs would do the same to us if they had a chance.

Two legs bad. Two legs bad!

Well, in a way, I'd guess so, but from what the OP said it seemed to be far more about the medical, technical aspects of the wounded person, not about the mental state of the person treating them:
I think it's both. To practise on keeping something alive that has suffered severe physical trauma similar to a battelfield situation, and to be able to get over the feelings of shock oneself when faced with a bloody, dying lump of meat.

“They shot him twice in the face with a 9-millimeter pistol, and then six times with an AK-47 and then twice with a 12-gauge shotgun. And then he was set on fire.”
Have to say - that was tough muffafukker of a pig.

This is so going to become a discussion on cruelty to animals.

This is so about cruelty to animals, I don't see how it could become anything other than what it already is. What do you suggest, a discussion about triage?

This is so about cruelty to animals, I don't see how it could become anything other than what it already is. What do you suggest, a discussion about triage?

TESTIFY!

poor pig :(

although i can't imagine how else they'd get that sort of training. except maybe working in an inner-city A&E department.

Mmmmm...barbeque.

That explains the shard of metal in my hotdog.

On the other hand, it's nice to know there was some pig in it.

TESTIFY!

Hells yeah!

Don't get me wrong - I love the pig. In fact, in my time I've loved the pig so much that I'm pretty much on salads for the next year or two (damn waistline...grr!) - but c'mon, shooting the lil' fellas repeatedly in the face and then working overtime to keep 'em alive? That's - ugh, that's just fucked. Fucked, I say.

Like the time in high school biology that we had to dissect pig fetii. It just felt stupid, wasteful and completely unnecessary to have each and every member of the class dissect a fetus - and there were four biology classes a day, with each class having over thirty kids. Wouldn't it have been somewhat less - profligate - to have a single fetus, already dissected and on display? Or who knows? Maybe a souped-up 3D virtual pig fetus, no scalpels required.

It just seems to me like still more needless horror for little gain. Maybe next time they could just try hiring some damn fine human actors for their sad little wartime medical drama scenario instead.

You have to imagine that after the first nine or ten hours the pig had to be hoping the guy wouldn't bother keeping him alive anymore.

That's pretty fucked up.





man, I thought this thread was going to be about something funny...fuck...

man, I thought this thread was going to be about something funny...fuck...

Yeah, no such luck - and I'd been hoping for a fun lil' distraction myself.

That explains the shard of metal in my hotdog.

On the other hand, it's nice to know there was some pig in it.

You win the thread.