NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, I'm sure that some people here are completely opposed to embryonic stem cell research. But let's not debate that in this particular thread. If it really needs to get started again, I'll start a new thread. =)

This is more about the ethics associated with egg donation for research - which need not necessarily be specifically for embryonic stem cell research, as there is certainly some basic biological research that could utilize egg cells.

As a general rule, it seems to be agreed that women should not be solicited to donate eggs specifically for research. As it stands, women undergoing fertility treatments can be asked to donate a portion of the eggs that are obtained, and some do. Generally, no compensation is offered, as they are already undergoing the treatment for their own reasons.

As I understand it, the reason that solicitation of women who would not otherwise undergo the treatment is avoided is because of the dangers of the procedure and the risk of exploitation. Much like the reasons that we do not allow organizations like The Red Cross to pay for whole blood donations, we don't want people who are in desperate straits to put their bodies through a potentially dangerous procedure - especially if done multiple times - because they see no other way to get money.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/01/19/stem.cell.eggs.ap/index.html

But this article proposes a different strategy for obtaining more eggs for research. What if women who agreed to donate a portion of the eggs from the procedure were offered a discount for fertility treatments? These are women who already wish to undergo the procedure to be able to have a child, so they aren't soliciting random women off the street. Such discounts could increase the level of donation, and even potentially open up fertility treatments to those who might otherwise be unable to afford them. At the same time, it might be seen as unfair pressure to donate - and could again target those at the lower end of the income spectrum.

Is this acceptable? Why or why not? What other methods of soliciting donation might be appropriate?

I probably shouldn't even post in this thread, but...

I support donating fetuses for research if there is a reason for it, and they can be compensated for it if both sides agree to it.

Eggs would certainly be acceptable.

I don't know, actually; it really seems no different than cloning or growing them in a lab. The only difference is that a woman is donating them in exchange for this medical procedure; if the extra eggs are not going to be used anyways, I see no reason to waste potentially valuable research material.

The only concern I would have is the risks associated with fertility treatments in and of themselves.

Of course, since I support cloning and specifically cultivating embryonic stem cells for research, I would prefer to use those to meet demand rather than using incentives to get people to donate them. But either way works, as long as it ensures a steady supply of research cells.

my ethical ideas and my legislative ideas never match up.

my ethical ideas and my legislative ideas never match up.

I know the feeling.

I don't know, actually; it really seems no different than cloning or growing them in a lab.

We don't really have any good techniques for cloning egg cells or growing them in a lab. That's why we have to rely on donations.

The only difference is that a woman is donating them in exchange for this medical procedure; if the extra eggs are not going to be used anyways, I see no reason to waste potentially valuable research material.

The only concern I would have is the risks associated with fertility treatments in and of themselves.

Indeed. This is why I think it would be a dangerous proposition to start soliciting donations from people who are not already wishing to undergo the treatments.

Of course, since I support cloning and specifically cultivating embryonic stem cells for research, I would prefer to use those to meet demand rather than using incentives to get people to donate them. But either way works, as long as it ensures a steady supply of research cells.

I'm not sure I'm clear on this. You are ok with random solicitations, but would prefer the eggs to be obtained from those already having the treatments? Or did you mean something else?

I don't see why not. The discount, if I understand it, would be available to women who would be undergoing the harvesting procedure anyway.

I don't see how donating eggs is an ethical issue...

it seems like a good idea. it would also bring the cost of infertility treatments down so that more women could use the service.

im not sure where the money would come from or how women would be chosen so there may be some issues there i suppose.

or maybe more women would just donate eggs at the fertility clinic if they were asked. quite often they produce way more eggs than they could ever possibly use anyway.

I don't see how donating eggs is an ethical issue...

There are always ethical issues associated with research that involves any living subjects - even if the subjects are used only for tissue harvest. In animals, the ethical issues are generally a matter of how much pain is caused to the animal and whether or not the procedure is thus justified. In human beings, we have larger issues of informed consent, being careful not to endanger the subject, being careful not to pressure the subject, etc.

Even something as simple as drawing blood for research purposes has ethical issues associated with it.

We don't really have any good techniques for cloning egg cells or growing them in a lab. That's why we have to rely on donations.

That's why I have no problem with donating eggs from fertility treatments. These kinds of sources for stem cells are still in development, and they don't address the need for cells now.


I'm not sure I'm clear on this. You are ok with random solicitations, but would prefer the eggs to be obtained from those already having the treatments? Or did you mean something else?

I'd prefer for the eggs to be grown specifically for research or collected from patients already undergoing treatment rather than be solicited due to the risks associated with fertility treatments. If someone goes for one of these treatments, and they would have normally not done so, and something goes wrong, you could have some serious health and legal issues.

Of course, given the need for stem cells it comes down to whether or not the risks are worth it.

There are always ethical issues associated with research that involves any living subjects - even if the subjects are used only for tissue harvest. In animals, the ethical issues are generally a matter of how much pain is caused to the animal and whether or not the procedure is thus justified. In human beings, we have larger issues of informed consent, being careful not to endanger the subject, being careful not to pressure the subject, etc.

Even something as simple as drawing blood for research purposes has ethical issues associated with it.In what way is an egg a living subject? An egg is no different than any other cell. And it's not even a viable organism. Or are they talking of fertilized eggs? But even then, I don't really see any ethics involved.

In what way is an egg a living subject? An egg is no different than any other cell. And it's not even a viable organism. Or are they talking of fertilized eggs? But even then, I don't really see any ethics involved.

An egg isn't a living subject - but the woman who donates it is. And, in order to extract said egg (eggs, actually), she has to go through a potentially dangerous process.

The ethics come in when dealing with a living human being - when performing medical procedures on a living human being for the purposes of research. Hence the reason that even drawing blood for research comes with its own set of ethical issues.

An egg isn't a living subject - but the woman who donates it is. And, in order to extract said egg (eggs, actually), she has to go through a potentially dangerous process.

The ethics come in when dealing with a living human being - when performing medical procedures on a living human being for the purposes of research. Hence the reason that even drawing blood for research comes with its own set of ethical issues.Just ask the respective woman and the ethical problems are solved. There is no need for a fuss.

I don't see how donating eggs is an ethical issue...

WHAT?! Are you joking? Don't you realize that...

It's uh...

Hmmm....

Well you see...

I guess there really isn't anything wrong with it.

Just ask the respective woman and the ethical problems are solved. There is no need for a fuss.

You are greatly oversimplifying.

Would it really be enough to walk up to a random, generally uneducated woman on the street and say, "Hey, you wanna give me some eggs for stem cell research?"

Would it be ok, even if the woman agreed, to perform fertility treatments specifically for the purposes of research on a woman when she was at a greater risk for complications?

Would it be ok to offer $500 for a woman to go through all of that, knowing that pretty much only those in very dire straits would go for it?

Would it be ok to ask a woman for her eggs for research without explaining what you were going to do with them?

And so on.....

Informed consent is the best kind.

If people want to take part in drug trials, or psychological experiments, then they need to be fully briefed.

I see no reason why prospective doners could not be fully informed before giving consent.

You are greatly oversimplifying.

Would it really be enough to walk up to a random, generally uneducated woman on the street and say, "Hey, you wanna give me some eggs for stem cell research?"

Would it be ok, even if the woman agreed, to perform fertility treatments specifically for the purposes of research on a woman when she was at a greater risk for complications?

Would it be ok to offer $500 for a woman to go through all of that, knowing that pretty much only those in very dire straits would go for it?

Would it be ok to ask a woman for her eggs for research without explaining what you were going to do with them?

And so on.....oversimplifying? no, in fact it is that simple. and why would a woman care for the fate of removed eggs?

oversimplifying? no, in fact it is that simple.

No, it really isn't.

and why would a woman care for the fate of removed eggs?

Donation is a potentially dangerous procedure. A woman isn't going to want to go through such a procedure for research she disagrees with or sees as being unnecessary.

I donate blood so that patients whose lives are in danger can be saved. I might not do it if the blood were going to be used for some other purpose. It is my right to determine the circumstances under which I am willing to donate.

With women who might donate eggs - a much more dangerous procedure than simply giving blood - the principle is the same. They have the right to know and understand what will be done with their donation. If the cells are then used differently or they find that the process was not properly explained, they have the right to sue for compensation, at the very least.

No, it really isn't.



Donation is a potentially dangerous procedure. A woman isn't going to want to go through such a procedure for research she disagrees with or sees as being unnecessary.

I donate blood so that patients whose lives are in danger can be saved. I might not do it if the blood were going to be used for some other purpose. It is my right to determine the circumstances under which I am willing to donate.

With women who might donate eggs - a much more dangerous procedure than simply giving blood - the principle is the same. They have the right to know and understand what will be done with their donation. If the cells are then used differently or they find that the process was not properly explained, they have the right to sue for compensation, at the very least.:rolleyes: it's your decision to donate blood. it's a woman's decision to donate eggs. so what?
and why do you care what your blood is used for?

:rolleyes: it's your decision to donate blood.

Yes, it is. And it is a decision I make only after being fully informed on the risks associated and why I am taking them. It is a decision I make only after being informed of what health problems they will check for, and what will happen if they find any.

it's a woman's decision to donate eggs. so what?

Indeed it is. But it can only be considered a decision she made if she is fully informed and understands the process, its risks, and the reason she is being asked to do it. Otherwise, it is a decision that she was pushed into uninformed and, if complications occur, the responsibility falls squarely on the shoulders of the researchers.

and why do you care what your blood is used for?

It is my blood. I take risks (albeit, in this case, small ones) in giving it. I have to alter my activities around it by taking time out of my day to do it and altering my eating, drinking, and exercise habits around it. I have a right to know why I am taking those risks and altering my activities, and to decide not to do so if I don't think what they are doing is worth it.

If I asked you to let me take your kidney for a human diabetes patient who was dying, you might agree. But what if I, instead, used it to find out what organs pigs like to eat best? Would you be willing to undergo a dangerous surgery for that?

Yes, it is. And it is a decision I make only after being fully informed on the risks associated and why I am taking them. It is a decision I make only after being informed of what health problems they will check for, and what will happen if they find any.



Indeed it is. But it can only be considered a decision she made if she is fully informed and understands the process, its risks, and the reason she is being asked to do it. Otherwise, it is a decision that she was pushed into uninformed and, if complications occur, the responsibility falls squarely on the shoulders of the researchers.



It is my blood. I take risks (albeit, in this case, small ones) in giving it. I have to alter my activities around it by taking time out of my day to do it and altering my eating, drinking, and exercise habits around it. I have a right to know why I am taking those risks and altering my activities, and to decide not to do so if I don't think what they are doing is worth it.

If I asked you to let me take your kidney for a human diabetes patient who was dying, you might agree. But what if I, instead, used it to find out what organs pigs like to eat best? Would you be willing to undergo a dangerous surgery for that?A kidney is a lot different from an egg. Giving away a kidney is a substantial loss, giving away a few eggs is nothing really. How many kids does a woman have in her life? And how many eggs otherwise just go down the toilet?

A kidney is a lot different from an egg. Giving away a kidney is a substantial loss, giving away a few eggs is nothing really. How many kids does a woman have in her life? And how many eggs otherwise just go down the toilet?

It has little to do with what you are giving away and more to do with the risks you are taking to do so. A woman who donates eggs is on high-dose hormones for at least a week and then undergoes a surgical procedure to have the eggs extracted. She could suffer from all sorts of issues as a result. During the procedure, she will likely receive some form of anesthetic, which could be dangerous. There is a risk of bowel puncture during the surgery, which could lead to major abdominal bleeding and surgery. There is a risk of infection that could lead to infertility. If she were to donate more than once, theses risks would be magnified.

I don't know if you're trying to be cute or what, but you're either intentionally oversimplifying things, or you just have no idea what you are talking about.

It has little to do with what you are giving away and more to do with the risks you are taking to do so. A woman who donates eggs is on high-dose hormones for at least a week and then undergoes a surgical procedure to have the eggs extracted. She could suffer from all sorts of issues as a result. During the procedure, she will likely receive some form of anesthetic, which could be dangerous. There is a risk of bowel puncture during the surgery, which could lead to major abdominal bleeding and surgery. There is a risk of infection that could lead to infertility. If she were to donate more than once, theses risks would be magnified.

I don't know if you're trying to be cute or what, but you're either intentionally oversimplifying things, or you just have no idea what you are talking about.What procedure are you talking about? It's less invasive than having an appendix removed. You really exaggerate the dangers. A human body, including the immune system, is pretty robust after all.

What procedure are you talking about? It's less invasive than having an appendix removed. You really exaggerate the dangers. A human body, including the immune system, is pretty robust after all.

Yes, but getting an appendix removed would be a necessary surgery, whereas this would not be.

Also, though it may be less invasive than organ removal, it is certainly more intensive than simple blood donation. Or in the case of guys, sperm donation.

Yes, but getting an appendix removed would be a necessary surgery, whereas this would not be.

Also, though it may be less invasive than organ removal, it is certainly more intensive than simple blood donation. Or in the case of guys, sperm donation.So what? If a woman decides to donate eggs, then that's it. Why fuss about imaginary circumstances?

So what? If a woman decides to donate eggs, then that's it. Why fuss about imaginary circumstances?

The original point of the poster was about PAYMENT for these eggs. This is where the ethics lie. Those who need the money are more likely to donate, like plasma and college students. It's a matter of what is the appropriate compensation for the eggs.

Due to the nature of the egg extraction, most women won't be doing this for free.

So this leaves you with Payment. The ethics lie in whether it is fair to compromise poor women.

Donating eggs for stem cell research = a great idea.

Fertility treatment = a lousy idea. Just adopt a baby/child. If you're incapable of loving a child not biologically yours then you can go whistle, as far as I'm concerned.

The original point of the poster was about PAYMENT for these eggs. This is where the ethics lie. Those who need the money are more likely to donate, like plasma and college students. It's a matter of what is the appropriate compensation for the eggs.

Due to the nature of the egg extraction, most women won't be doing this for free.

So this leaves you with Payment. The ethics lie in whether it is fair to compromise poor women.I don't see an ethics problem there either. If the pay is adequate, it's all fine. If poor women do this for the money it still is OK. Folks do things for money that are far worse. And especially if a woman already has kids there is no need to waste the eggs she has left.