NationStates Jolt Archive

from msnbc.com

Bush will push for Congress to renew his education law, No Child Left Behind, which expires this year.

NCLB has to be one of the silliest education laws put into effect by a bipartisan vote (that's right... even Teddy Kennedy pushed this one into effect). But now Bush is pushing for it to be renewed, and this is just a policy I can't really stand for, disregarding other policies he's stood for.

Thoughts?

NCLB has to be one of the silliest education laws put into effect by a bipartisan vote (that's right... even Teddy Kennedy pushed this one into effect). But now Bush is pushing for it to be renewed, and this is just a policy I can't really stand for, disregarding other policies he's stood for.

Thoughts?

What the fuck good is renewing a deliberately underfunded bill? :confused:

Oh, and most of the Democrats who suppoted the bill did so grudgingly and under the impression it would be funded. :p

Did NCLB really help our schools? From what I can see, no it didn't.

"No Child Left"? Private schools win, public schools lose. The Bush administration knew what they were doing.

What the fuck good is renewing a deliberately underfunded bill? :confused:

Oh, and most of the Democrats who suppoted the bill did so grudgingly and under the impression it would be funded. :p

80-17 in the Senate is a wee bit more than a grudging approval...

80-17 in the Senate is a wee bit more than a grudging approval...

Hey, they had to make decisions quickly. No one is going to read a 700 page act verbatim. They just figured, "Okay... it'll help schools... I think..."

I don't think our children is really learning good.

Hey, they had to make decisions quickly. No one is going to read a 700 page act verbatim. They just figured, "Okay... it'll help schools... I think..."

So what? It's not like they haven't had years to read through it and decide whether or not to repass it...

So what? It's not like they haven't had years to read through it and decide whether or not to repass it...

They better not repass it. The test-frenzy just causes more stress for kids, wastes money, and cuts in on the ability of teachers to discuss and explore their student's questions and observations.

They better not repass it. The test-frenzy just causes more stress for kids, wastes money, and cuts in on the ability of teachers to discuss and explore their student's questions and observations.

More stress on kids? lol... i took the SAT w/out studying and i wasnt stressed a bit. ditto for the high school exit exam... wait, is that only in california?

anyway, i agree about the whole freedom of education argument you make in your last statement. a lot of my high school classes had strict standards that the teachers were supposed to abide by...

youd notice, however, that ap teachers are a bit more lax in that area ;)

More stress on kids? lol... i took the SAT w/out studying and i wasnt stressed a bit. ditto for the high school exit exam... wait, is that only in california?

anyway, i agree about the whole freedom of education argument you make in your last statement. a lot of my high school classes had strict standards that the teachers were supposed to abide by...

youd notice, however, that ap teachers are a bit more lax in that area ;)

Well, you are a smart cookie. Let's not forget the SAT/ACT are optional. The NCLB Act calls for mandatory testing that determines whether or not the kid graduates. No matter how well the kid has done in school, if the kid fails that test, that kid is left behind.

On a side note, I recall reading about a 17 yr old honor student in Florida who failed the state test, was told she can't graduate with everyone else, and she tried to kill herself.

Well, you are a smart cookie. Let's not forget the SAT/ACT are optional. The NCLB Act calls for mandatory testing that determines whether or not the kid graduates. No matter how well the kid has done in school, if the kid fails that test, that kid is left behind.

On a side note, I recall reading about a 17 yr old honor student in Florida who failed the state test, was told she can't graduate with everyone else, and she tried to kill herself.

uhhhh... how would an honor student fail a state high school test? i mean, the content of the test was meant for students in sophomore year to take it. how...? boggles the mind...

its kind of ironic... we're preaching not to leave kids behind, but the ones that are left behind are the ones we dont want to leave behind in the first place.

also of note: the test generally applies to special ed students as well.

uhhhh... how would an honor student fail a state high school test? i mean, the content of the test was meant for students in sophomore year to take it. how...? boggles the mind...

Nuts. I can't find a link to the story. :(

its kind of ironic... we're preaching not to leave kids behind, but the ones that are left behind are the ones we dont want to leave behind in the first place.

Not really. When you think of it, what are schools do in the eyes of business leaders? Schools are a source of knowledge (and knowledge is power) and teach marketable skills. By testing them constantly, they think they can identify kids they can cut off from training. So you see, NCLB just helps our fine leaders put people in their right slots quicker and at less cost. No one is really left behind.

also of note: the test generally applies to special ed students as well.

This is particularly heartless. From the moment they were born, most of these kids never stood a chance. Forcing them to take the test and then denying them diplomas is just another slap in their face.

NonononononononononNONONOnononNononOnonononononononoNONONONONONO!
NO!

That bloody thing should NOT be renewed!

It's more like "No Child Left Unharmed."

uhhhh... how would an honor student fail a state high school test? i mean, the content of the test was meant for students in sophomore year to take it. how...? boggles the mind...

its kind of ironic... we're preaching not to leave kids behind, but the ones that are left behind are the ones we dont want to leave behind in the first place.

also of note: the test generally applies to special ed students as well.

That story sounds familiar. I don't know how they could fail it, (having taken the FCAT, I can say that it is ridiculously easy, and that seems to be the consensus of everyone I've talked to about it) but they did. However, they give students who fail it ample time to retake it (they can try again twice per year until they pass, I believe), and even give them unlimited time when they take it again.

It also applies to ESOL students after they have been studying English for two years, and they have to take the same test as everyone else, in English. That doesn't seem quite fair to me. I know that it would have been much more difficult for me if I had to take the FCAT in Latin (which I have studied for over two years)

Well I'll defend it even if nobody else will.

I have a third grader Son now, who when in 2nd grade had a reading problem identified through NCLB testing (one single week after the teacher told me, in person at the parent teacher conference mind you, that his reading level was just fine...) AND after that identification a NCLB program was initiated for the boy (and the others in the school with the similar reading levels) that resolved the issue within three months. Additionally, his math skill was identified as above average, through the same NCLB testing, and he was asked if he wanted to attend accelerated math classes for gifted children (which he accepted). Both of these things would not have been identified or addressed in such a timely manner had it not been for the NCLB program.

I have a daughter in middle school who has always tested well in all subjects so she hasn't required additional help, just keeping her at what she's already doing, but I can see from her NCLB testing results not just her score, but her schools score, her teachers scores, the various program scores. And if any of the programs are lagging behind the state or community norm, you can ask why, what can I do to help, how can we recognize the programs short-comings. All of this data comes through the NCLB program testing, otherwise it would be like comparing apples to oranges to look at test results of different programs from one school test results to another schools results, even if they are both in the same community. The NCLB resolves that issue and makes comparison and evaluation possible.

If the NCLB program doesn’t work in your community or state, perhaps you should get better people to be in charge of your school system. All the critics of NCLB use double-speak when the cry about it, or so it seems to me. For example, they cry that they want their community standards in their own school system, and they want the federal government to butt out, but then they turn around and say the federal government isn’t doing enough to help the state school systems… that’s double speak, its what failing school systems say to try and re-direct blame for their short-comings, to direct it in any direction other than themselves where it belongs.

Well I'll defend it even if nobody else will.

I have a third grader Son now, who when in 2nd grade had a reading problem identified through NCLB testing (one single week after the teacher told me, in person at the parent teacher conference mind you, that his reading level was just fine...) AND after that identification a NCLB program was initiated for the boy (and the others in the school with the similar reading levels) that resolved the issue within three months. Additionally, his math skill was identified as above average, through the same NCLB testing, and he was asked if he wanted to attend accelerated math classes for gifted children (which he accepted). Both of these things would not have been identified or addressed in such a timely manner had it not been for the NCLB program.

I have a daughter in middle school who has always tested well in all subjects so she hasn't required additional help, just keeping her at what she's already doing, but I can see from her NCLB testing results not just her score, but her schools score, her teachers scores, the various program scores. And if any of the programs are lagging behind the state or community norm, you can ask why, what can I do to help, how can we recognize the programs short-comings. All of this data comes through the NCLB program testing, otherwise it would be like comparing apples to oranges to look at test results of different programs from one school test results to another schools results, even if they are both in the same community. The NCLB resolves that issue and makes comparison and evaluation possible.

If the NCLB program doesn’t work in your community or state, perhaps you should get better people to be in charge of your school system. All the critics of NCLB use double-speak when the cry about it, or so it seems to me. For example, they cry that they want their community standards in their own school system, and they want the federal government to butt out, but then they turn around and say the federal government isn’t doing enough to help the state school systems… that’s double speak, its what failing school systems say to try and re-direct blame for their short-comings, to direct it in any direction other than themselves where it belongs.

The tests your children have taken have been around for years - far longer than the NCLB act has been in effect. It's called "Standardized Testing".

We put so much effort into testing students and making sure that they pass a state exam that says they are allowed to graduate, but we do not focus on the QUALITY of the education they receive.

I graduated two years ago from high school with above average marks on my state exam. In New Jersey it's called "HSPA - High School Proficiency Assessment". Throughout high school everything was based on passing that state exam. Unfortunately, the teachers were forced to follow a very strict curriculum (as decided by the state, with pressure from the federal government) which severely hampered a real education, at least for me.

See, I loved History and Science. I am great at reading and writing. Math is my worst subject. I took electronics courses, and computer programming courses. You know which class(es) really gave me an education because it was not some watered down curriculum designed to be tested via a standardized state exam?

Electronics.

As much as I loved history there was too much of a focus in on getting through a big text book to learn about world history, and for me, US history.

For science I took Physical Science, Biology, Chemistry, and Physics. I loved biology the most because it wasn't spoonfed to me like the other science classes. We actually got to see, discover, and interact with the subject matter. The only classes dealt with pure equations, formulas, and theories because those were what would "help you pass the state exam".

English was also great because I had great teachers. Fortunately the curriculum actually wasn't too watered down and did not focus too extensively on vocabulary and grammar, although we did obviously have to learn all that. But I did not learn much from English. Is there really anything to learn after a certain point?

For me, math was the devil. I was sick of math. I did not want to do math. If it wasn't needed to pass HS, I would have dropped that class in a heartbeat. The teachers never focused on teaching math. Instead, they focused on how to get the correct answer, and the steps on getting the answer. They never focused on the basics of math. They never spent more than a couple days for every part of the curriculum trying to get everyone to learn each and every formula to use on the standardized test. They never actually taught math - they forced every student to memorize or to "learn" it, whether or not they understood it.

I know I don't want to know how to get an answer or what the right answer is if I can't understand why or how you get through a math equation properly. There were plenty of times I never understood some of the equations we did because it made no sense to me, but yet I had to know how to do it to get the correct answer.

My electronics classes were my most favorite classes. Not only did these classes not have such a strict curriculum, but I actually LEARNED something from these classes. In electronics, we did focus on theories, the basics of electricity, electronic devices, etc., but we also focused on teamwork, cooperation, creative thinking, and in how to communicate. We were all assigned build teams, or sometimes partners, for every project we did in electronics so we had to communicate and work together for our projects to be successful. I learned a lot more in this class than any other class in high school because the teacher had no standardized test curriculum that had to be followed.

The one greatest thing in HS that I did, and really enjoyed, was tech theater. Sure, it was not a school course, but it really took dedication, thinking, intelligence, creativity, and communication to do this. I have to say, doing high school theater taught me a lot of lessons. It taught me how to be creative, organized, and how to work with a massive group of people. I enjoyed every minute of it and I learned far more from doing theater than ANY class in high school. Even to this day, at 19, I use a lot of what I learned in theater in my every day life. Hell, I even use some of the fundamentals from electronics and electricity and theater in my job.

Currently, I work as an Operations Engineer for a webhosting company, and I work onsite in the datacenter. I deal with networking, servers, operating systems, basic system administration, etc. I do not have any degrees or certifications, but yet here I am in an industry dominated by people with college degrees and certs. I can honestly say, 80% of what I was supposedly "taught" in high school does NOT apply to the real world (for me at least), and it especially does not apply to my job. Ironically, electronics and theater actually have helped me more with this job than anything else I have done or been taught.

I know we are all different in terms of how we learn, what we need to learn, and all that.. but standardized testing is not the solution to preventing students from failing out of school. What we need are more intensive courses where the student is actually taken through a subject and is able to understand what he or she was taught at the end. Our education system in the US needs to focus not on test scores at the end of the school term, but on what the student is being taught, how it's taught, and the quality of the material the student is being taught.

Honestly, I would have rather had a longer school year so that the teachers could spend more time going over every part of the curriculum instead of rushing students through it. Doing it this way leaves more students behind than without standardized testing. From experience, standardized testing is a complete joke as it only tests a students ability to memorize, follow instructions, and how to use a formula.

Creativity, communication, organization, and thinking are the skills we need to be taught. What good is knowing math or knowing history or correct grammar if we don't have the skills or ability to use them effectively?

PS: It's like 5AM in the morning so I am sure this won't make any sense to anyone..

"No Child Left"? Private schools win, public schools lose. The Bush administration knew what they were doing.

Briliant.

In this case, I'm all for it.

Did NCLB really help our schools? From what I can see, no it didn't.No results. funny thing about education is that results are delayed by a minimum of 2 years, with full effects not showing for 8-12 years. This is also why competition in schools fails.

Well, you are a smart cookie. Let's not forget the SAT/ACT are optional. The NCLB Act calls for mandatory testing that determines whether or not the kid graduates. No matter how well the kid has done in school, if the kid fails that test, that kid is left behind.
NCLB doesn't demand that kids pass the test to graduate. The high-stakes testing portion of the NCLB legislation states that all students must take an approved standardized test, and results of that test are tied to funding. States and towns have required it for graduation as an incentive for students to try. States do NOT have to abide by NCLB (the federal government has no authority to set demands for education), but will not recieve federal funding if they don't.

Well I'll defend it even if nobody else will.

I have a third grader Son now, who when in 2nd grade had a reading problem identified through NCLB testing (one single week after the teacher told me, in person at the parent teacher conference mind you, that his reading level was just fine...) AND after that identification a NCLB program was initiated for the boy (and the others in the school with the similar reading levels) that resolved the issue within three months. Additionally, his math skill was identified as above average, through the same NCLB testing, and he was asked if he wanted to attend accelerated math classes for gifted children (which he accepted). Both of these things would not have been identified or addressed in such a timely manner had it not been for the NCLB program.

I have a daughter in middle school who has always tested well in all subjects so she hasn't required additional help, just keeping her at what she's already doing, but I can see from her NCLB testing results not just her score, but her schools score, her teachers scores, the various program scores. And if any of the programs are lagging behind the state or community norm, you can ask why, what can I do to help, how can we recognize the programs short-comings. All of this data comes through the NCLB program testing, otherwise it would be like comparing apples to oranges to look at test results of different programs from one school test results to another schools results, even if they are both in the same community. The NCLB resolves that issue and makes comparison and evaluation possible.

If the NCLB program doesn’t work in your community or state, perhaps you should get better people to be in charge of your school system. All the critics of NCLB use double-speak when the cry about it, or so it seems to me. For example, they cry that they want their community standards in their own school system, and they want the federal government to butt out, but then they turn around and say the federal government isn’t doing enough to help the state school systems… that’s double speak, its what failing school systems say to try and re-direct blame for their short-comings, to direct it in any direction other than themselves where it belongs.NCLB is not a single test. It is legislation that states all US public school students must take a standardized test and schools must show improvement to recieve funding.
Most, if not all, of the states already HAD standardized tests (actually, almost all use the same exact test they did before). The tests were just low stakes, used to mesure a schools performance. They are now high-stakes, which adds many implications. It most cases, it has lowered the grade level of tests (the MCAS required for graduation in MA has moved down to being an 8th grade level test). Schools now "teach to the test". In other words, they now teach what they know will be tested, rather than teaching students how to solve problems and find solutions (critical thinking skills). They are now taught the "what" instead of the "why" and "how".

Standardized testing alone is also generally not an acceptable reason to consider someone a low performer or high performer in any subject field. The two are correlated, but not linked. If they moved him without looking into it, then that is a failing of the school.

NCLB is also not in qestion when people discuss the fact that the federal government doesn't do enough for education. That has to do with funding and finding things that work. NCLB dangles funding over the schools heads, but doesn't fund the necessary components, nor does it guarentee funding (the part about "adequate yearly progress", without giving any good definition of what that is)

There is the additional problem that every state has different tests with different standards. The cloests we have to a national test is the NAEP (National Assessment of Educational Progress), which is a low-stakes standardized test given to a sampling of students. This provides a good, level test that allows states to be compared. The MCAS test, however, is not directly comparable to the New York Regency exams, the CAPT testing of Connecticut, or any other test.

Something that COULD be positive about NCLB is the What Works Clearinghouse. Currently, it is highly expensive and ineffective. Essentially, this is a government group that reviews and researches different curricula and teaching methods, approving ones that have demonstrated "scientifically based" abilities to work. The problem is the WWC is currently ineffective and inefficient, having only approved 8 things since its creation.

This is particularly heartless. From the moment they were born, most of these kids never stood a chance. Forcing them to take the test and then denying them diplomas is just another slap in their face.

Are you kidding me? I agree that NCLB involves too much testing, but graduation tests are far from heartless. They're usually on an 8th grade-10th grade (at most) level. If you can't pass them, then any school that gives you a diploma has done you - and everyone else - a great disservice.

Do you really think we should hand out diplomas just for showing up? Or should they actually mean that the person has learned something?

I have a third grader Son now, who when in 2nd grade had a reading problem identified through NCLB testing (one single week after the teacher told me, in person at the parent teacher conference mind you, that his reading level was just fine...) AND after that identification a NCLB program was initiated for the boy (and the others in the school with the similar reading levels) that resolved the issue within three months. Additionally, his math skill was identified as above average, through the same NCLB testing, and he was asked if he wanted to attend accelerated math classes for gifted children (which he accepted). Both of these things would not have been identified or addressed in such a timely manner had it not been for the NCLB program.

If you really think these issues wouldn't have been identified without the NCLB program, then you're probably in a shitty school system. The schools I went to had no problem identifying students who needed extra help or were ready for accelerated classes.

If the NCLB program doesn’t work in your community or state, perhaps you should get better people to be in charge of your school system.

One could just as easily say that, if the NCLB program is actually helping in your community or state, you should get better people to be in charge of your school system.

lol

I searched and searched and searched today and couldn't find anything in NCLB that was meant to improve reading comprehension beyond the third-grade level. Correct me if you find something.

In my area, recess has been abolished in some elementary schools, the better cases (like my town) have it reduced to only five minutes long.

The excessive emphasis on testing is based on an attitude that keeps children from trying to improve in their own right. If you believe that a test tells you where you are going in life, what incentive is there to learn?

And the testing criteria is just so base as to alienate those who see learning as more than just a way to get a job.

"A, B, C, D, E, F, G; if I can't spell go punish me!"

I would love to be able to blame the local school districts problems on NCLB, but I can't, they had these problems way before that, we have always been in a situation where the teachers were teaching to the test because that's how funding gets distributed in my state. I knew when I heard the NCLB plan that it would just get worse, and it has.

NCLB has to be one of the silliest education laws put into effect by a bipartisan vote (that's right... even Teddy Kennedy pushed this one into effect). But now Bush is pushing for it to be renewed, and this is just a policy I can't really stand for, disregarding other policies he's stood for.

Thoughts?

I refer to it as the "No Child Left a Dime" act, since the government won't fund it...

lol

I searched and searched and searched today and couldn't find anything in NCLB that was meant to improve reading comprehension beyond the third-grade level. Correct me if you find something.IIRC (it has been a year since I looked at the actual bill, and haven't reached that point of the semester in my other class yet) you are correct. Oddly enough, untill third grade, the US is the second best performing school system. We have a huge 4th grade dropoff, however, that needs to be studied and fixed. By middle school, we have fallen to the middle of the pack, and by high school graduation, we are tied with the Phillippines.

In my area, recess has been abolished in some elementary schools, the better cases (like my town) have it reduced to only five minutes long.that is inane. Children need to get up and move for a little while.

The excessive emphasis on testing is based on an attitude that keeps children from trying to improve in their own right. If you believe that a test tells you where you are going in life, what incentive is there to learn?One of the many problems. It doesn't spark curiosity...it just teaches you to spit back random facts.

If you really think these issues wouldn't have been identified without the NCLB program, then you're probably in a shitty school system. The schools I went to had no problem identifying students who needed extra help or were ready for accelerated classes.

I didn't say they wouldn't have been addressed. I said they wouldn't have been addressed in such a timely manner. Meaning, teachers use the testing and were more quickly able to address the issue. IMO that's a good thing.


One could just as easily say that, if the NCLB program is actually helping in your community or state, you should get better people to be in charge of your school system.

One doesn't need turn it around like that, because THAT is precisely what the NCLB act was designed to do in the first place. Find the schools that are failing, the schools that suck, and force them to address their issues. The schools that are failing the NCLB programs should have the people in charge of them face up to their responsibilities and removed if they can’t improve. Thus, both you and I agree, the NCLB act IS working, it identifies the failing regions and then attempts to force those failing regions to improve. And it does it with the benefit of the children in mind, not the people in charge. Failing systems can make all the excuses they want, succeeding systems prove it can be done.

...

NCLB is not a single test. It is legislation that states all US public school students must take a standardized test and schools must show improvement to recieve funding. ...

Correct, it is not a single test. Different states implement different programs, I was simply telling you about the program that I'm aware of and how I find it beneficial.

I didn't say they wouldn't have been addressed. I said they wouldn't have been addressed in such a timely manner. Meaning, teachers use the testing and were more quickly able to address the issue. IMO that's a good thing.

And if they wouldn't, then that is a failing of your school and its teachers, not a boon for the NCLB program.

One doesn't need turn it around like that, because THAT is precisely what the NCLB act was designed to do in the first place.

That is what it was designed to do. What it is and will actually do is bring all schools - good or bad - to the lowest common denominator.

It may catch some "bad" schools. But it is also harming the schools that were good to begin with. I'm not ok with that trade-off.

That is what it was designed to do. What it is and will actually do is bring all schools - good or bad - to the lowest common denominator.

It may catch some "bad" schools. But it is also harming the schools that were good to begin with. I'm not ok with that trade-off.

but.....but......Dem........it's not fair that some kids are doing better than others, everything has to be the same, all the kids should be on the same level, otherwise it's anarchy. All children must be put into a class with kids their own age so that they can socialize, and if they are too smart they need to dumb down and if they are having trouble catching up they need us to hold everyone else back.

but.....but......Dem........it's not fair that some kids are doing better than others, everything has to be the same, all the kids should be on the same level, otherwise it's anarchy. All children must be put into a class with kids their own age so that they can socialize, and if they are too smart they need to dumb down and if they are having trouble catching up they need us to hold everyone else back.

I want to claw the eyes out of every person who thinks like that...

(and yes, I know you don't...but ROAR to those who do. :fluffle: to you)

but.....but......Dem........it's not fair that some kids are doing better than others, everything has to be the same, all the kids should be on the same level, otherwise it's anarchy. All children must be put into a class with kids their own age so that they can socialize, and if they are too smart they need to dumb down and if they are having trouble catching up they need us to hold everyone else back.

While the proponents of NCLB won't come right out and say that, this is basically what it amounts to.

Even in the public school system, people need to realize that children learn at different rates. Someone of "third grade" age may be best placed in a "first grade" English class and a "fifth grade" math class. While I certainly don't think we should regularly be putting very young children in classes with high schoolers, this idea that everyone of the same age needs to be on the same level in every subject is really nothing but pure laziness, as far as I'm concerned.

It's really unfortunate, too. I had the good fortune to end up in a pretty good public school system (thanks to my parents moving to a county with one) and I always used to think that I would never send my kids to some expensive private school - that public school would be fine. As things are going, however, it looks like I better start saving now for the kids I'll have sometime in the future.....

While the proponents of NCLB won't come right out and say that, this is basically what it amounts to.

Even in the public school system, people need to realize that children learn at different rates. Someone of "third grade" age may be best placed in a "first grade" English class and a "fifth grade" math class. While I certainly don't think we should regularly be putting very young children in classes with high schoolers, this idea that everyone of the same age needs to be on the same level in every subject is really nothing but pure laziness, as far as I'm concerned.

It's really unfortunate, too. I had the good fortune to end up in a pretty good public school system (thanks to my parents moving to a county with one) and I always used to think that I would never send my kids to some expensive private school - that public school would be fine. As things are going, however, it looks like I better start saving now for the kids I'll have sometime in the future.....

oh, I hear it from people everyday, every single day.

"why isn't your child in public school?"
"because it's not good for her"
"doesn't she want to hang out with kids her own age?"
"not really"
"but that's who she has things in common with"
"not really"

it's like they get this look on their face.....they don't quite get it.

oh, I hear it from people everyday, every single day.

"why isn't your child in public school?"
"because it's not good for her"
"doesn't she want to hang out with kids her own age?"
"not really"
"but that's who she has things in common with"
"not really"

it's like they get this look on their face.....they don't quite get it.

Up until I hit middle and high school, I had very little in common with most of the kids my own age. The majority of my friends were older - and those who were my own age were usually in the "gifted" program with me.

At family functions, I always tended to gravitate to whatever the adults were doing, rather than what my brother and cousins were doing (unless said cousins were infants or young toddlers - I've always been fascinated with very young children.) My aunts and uncles used to say things like "You're 8, going on 30."

I don't think there was anything wrong with that, any more than I think there is something wrong with a child who tends to find more in common with other children a few years younger.

One word:

Homeschool.

Another failure of the NCLB (and really, most educational research) is their decision to cling to race as a factor...we have African-American (which actually means black, not whites from Africa or those from northern Africa), Latino, which means anyone from the Spanish and Portugese colonies in America (but oddly, not including Spain and Portugal themselves), Asian (by which we mean East Asian, but not Russian, the Middle East, India, etc)

But we have known since the Coleman Report that Socio-economic status is more determinate of student success. The question isn't "do whites outperform blacks?", but "do wealthy students outperform poor, and how do we fix it?"

One word:

Homeschool.

actually it's two words. ;)

True;)

-----

Sarkhaan I somewhat agree with you. In most cases yes, but in other cases, racism is so ingrained that discrimination results. That provision was meant to keep teachers from ostracizing minorities whether rich or poor. But yes, race does become a factor in determining academic performance, and it needs to stop.

True;)

-----

Sarkhaan I somewhat agree with you. In most cases yes, but in other cases, racism is so ingrained that discrimination results. That provision was meant to keep teachers from ostracizing minorities whether rich or poor. But yes, race does become a factor in determining academic performance, and it needs to stop.

the problem is that race is a false grouping, and so it isn't worth looking into. Poor whites will fail just as much as poor blacks. The race issue only comes in because minorities tend to be of lower SES.
the race thing isn't a provision in NCLB...it is how all standardized tests are grouped. You don't have to select a race, but if you do, then that is how they are divided, rather than how much the family makes, or even basing it off of who is on a reduced lunch program.
Race isn't the major factor. Income is.

One word:

Homeschool.
Here's a number though: 65,000,000. That's how many school age children there are in the US. I'm not knocking home schooling because for some children it's the best option when done well *cough* Smunkee *cough*. But for most parents it wouldn't work.

Here's a number though: 65,000,000. That's how many school age children there are in the US. I'm not knocking home schooling because for some children it's the best option when done well *cough* Smunkee *cough*. But for most parents it wouldn't work.

And most parents simply aren't qualified - even if they have the means to do it.

but.....but......Dem........it's not fair that some kids are doing better than others, everything has to be the same, all the kids should be on the same level, otherwise it's anarchy. All children must be put into a class with kids their own age so that they can socialize, and if they are too smart they need to dumb down and if they are having trouble catching up they need us to hold everyone else back.

That's a strawman argument, and so is Dem's post. I don't see any children being held back, I didn't say anything about anyone being held up, I even pointed out that my own son was invited to participate in an advance course), I don't see any closures of talent development courses (advanced courses for children that excel in a particular field).

Who and where are these schools of children that are supposedly being held back because of NCLB standards? If they are so advanced, or so logic would dictate, then the NCLB standard should be nothing more than a single day of testing for them and they can move on to their advanced studies again, they should pass it so readily...

However, who said anything about it not being fair that some children are doing better than others? Not I, thus, you made it up. Strawman.

The problem is that this is not JUST a test. Schools entire budgets can rely on a single test...thus is the world of high-stakes testing. When rediculous gains are expected, nay, demanded, every year, something needs to be done to ensure those gains. And there we have teaching to the test. You teach what you have to to make the grade and nothing more.

smunkees point was not so much about NCLB, but more about mainstreaming.

And if YOUR children are in that school and that school isn't performing up to the minimum standards, would YOU think it was a high stakes issue?

I think my children's education IS a high stakes issue and if a school was even near flunking out of the NCLB standards I think I'd be rolling up my sleeves and getting to work fixing that school right now, today, not tomorrow, not next year... My kids are in school now, and the schools have to meet at least a minimum level of performance or else they should be shut down.

Who and where are these schools of children that are supposedly being held back because of NCLB standards? If they are so advanced, or so logic would dictate, then the NCLB standard should be nothing more than a single day of testing for them and they can move on to their advanced studies again, they should pass it so readily...
The problem is that this is not JUST a test. Schools entire budgets can rely on a single test...thus is the world of high-stakes testing. When rediculous gains are expected, nay, demanded, every year, something needs to be done to ensure those gains. And there we have teaching to the test. You teach what you have to to make the grade and nothing more.

smunkees point was not so much about NCLB, but more about mainstreaming.

Who and where are these schools of children that are supposedly being held back because of NCLB standards? If they are so advanced, or so logic would dictate, then the NCLB standard should be nothing more than a single day of testing for them and they can move on to their advanced studies again, they should pass it so readily...
Because in order to insure that all children are passing, it ain't just a simple day of testing, it is months of drill and kill for the narrow range of subjects tested on a test that doesn't messure what you think it's messuring anyway. That's why it's holding kids back, instead of being able to go on beyond the 5% of the curriculum actually tested and move into more creative lessons, teachers are now forced to spend an extended amount of time on that 5% just to make sure they pass.

Now, you tell me, if I gave you sentances to diagram every day for two months, being that you're bright and have it down cold, how happy would that make you? And how much do you think you'd be missing out of the English curriculum because I'm worried about getting everyone to pass a test?

Because in order to insure that all children are passing, it ain't just a simple day of testing, it is months of drill and kill for the narrow range of subjects tested on a test that doesn't messure what you think it's messuring anyway. That's why it's holding kids back, instead of being able to go on beyond the 5% of the curriculum actually tested and move into more creative lessons, teachers are now forced to spend an extended amount of time on that 5% just to make sure they pass.

Now, you tell me, if I gave you sentances to diagram every day for two months, being that you're bright and have it down cold, how happy would that make you? And how much do you think you'd be missing out of the English curriculum because I'm worried about getting everyone to pass a test?

Does everybody just invent crap to say how hard it is to pass the NCLB standards? For crying out loud, this is utterly nonsense. IF the children are supposed to be reading and they can't read, of course they need to cram for a test... and the teacher better be working their butts off trying to fix their shortcoming. If a child is supposed to be doing basic fractions by a certain grade and they're not, then yes, the teachers going to have to address that issue.

IF a class is actually where it's supposed to be or HIGHER, then they don't have to cram to pass a test they already know how to do the stuff at their level.

Does everybody just invent crap to say how hard it is to pass the NCLB standards? For crying out loud, this is utterly nonsense. IF the children are supposed to be reading and they can't read, of course they need to cram for a test... and the teacher better be working their butts off trying to fix their shortcoming. If a child is supposed to be doing basic fractions by forth grade and their not, then yes, the teachers going to have to address that issue.



It's not made up. I've experienced it. At my school they make everyone do worksheets and preparation for the FCAT (the test Florida uses). They have many workbooks specifically designed for teaching how to pass the test, even though it is very easy. However, at my school, which is probably the richest public school in the county and the only public high school to receive an A grade, the pass rate for the test (which is required for graduation) was around 50% for the reading (closer to 70-80% for the math).


IF a class is actually where it's supposed to be or HIGHER, then they don't have to cram to pass a test they already know how to do the stuff at their level.

That's the way it should be, I think, but that's not the way it's implemented. They make everyone cram for it. They take time out of my math class to make us prepare for the FCAT reading portion, even though everyone in the classroom had already passed it.

The only series of the tests I have left to take is the FCAT Science, and I believe that my class is the first or second year that it will actually matter for anything (it doesn't apply to graduation like the reading and math tests do, though.) They gave us a practice test during a Physics Honors course and it was ridiculous.

Does everybody just invent crap to say how hard it is to pass the NCLB standards? For crying out loud, this is utterly nonsense. IF the children are supposed to be reading and they can't read, of course they need to cram for a test... and the teacher better be working their butts off trying to fix their shortcoming. If a child is supposed to be doing basic fractions by a certain grade and they're not, then yes, the teachers going to have to address that issue.

IF a class is actually where it's supposed to be or HIGHER, then they don't have to cram to pass a test they already know how to do the stuff at their level.
You're talking to a teacher (NER) and a student teacher (me). I've been studing this law for the last 3 years. I've witnessed the MCAS. I've delt with them for the last 2 years. We know what we're talking about. It isn't just passing the test. There are requirements for yearly improvement, and a significant amount of funding is tied to this. Missing out on that funding, for even a year, can be devestating for a town.

School isn't about learning facts, which is what standardized tests test. It is about learning how to think. If you have to have a certain number of students pass a test, or else you get fired and your school loses its funding, then you teach to the test rather than teaching students how to think.

Does everybody just invent crap to say how hard it is to pass the NCLB standards?
Inventing? No. Actually knowing what is going on as opposed to someone who probably hasn't stepped foot into a classroom in years except for parent/teacher confrences, yes.

For crying out loud, this is utterly nonsense. IF the children are supposed to be reading and they can't read, of course they need to cram for a test... and the teacher better be working their butts off trying to fix their shortcoming. If a child is supposed to be doing basic fractions by forth grade and their not, then yes, the teachers going to have to address that issue.

IF a class is actually where it's supposed to be or HIGHER, then they don't have to cram to pass a test they already know how to do the stuff at their level.
Alright, we'll try this again. Read closely so you might understand this time. NCLB is tied to funding. The teachers know this. The techers also know that every single damn child, no matter their situation, has to pass that test. If they don't, funding gets cut. You understand this? We're bight, we can see what happens if we don't get them to pass the test. Now what do you think we're going to do? Could it be teach the sections of the test over and over and over and over again to make sure that our students are spouting it in their sleep? Because if we don't, we lose big time.

Why would I spend time on any thing else on my classes if everything is being messured by a test (Which, actually is happening as my 3rd years are being drilled and killed on grammar right now)?

I don't know what your job is, but let's say it's making something. Now let's say that the boss says that someone is going to inspect a certain aspect of that something, a small part, not the whole of it, and not even to see if the damn thing works. If that part, every bit of it, doesn't shine, you're out of money and possibly your job. What do you do? Probably spend an inorrdinate ammount of time on that one part.

And no, I am not making this up, this is what in-service teachers have been complaining about since NCLB came into play. Those tests now dominate the school year. The pressure from school administrators/school boards/parents to get everyone to pass is intense and is causing abandonment or skimming of other parts of the curricula just to make damn sure everyone is passing. Even if the kids are doing fine, they're still drill and kill because THAT'S what NCLB has done. It hasn't rasied standards, it's keeping them depressed for many students who are forced to cover the same topics over and over again.

And if YOUR children are in that school and that school isn't performing up to the minimum standards, would YOU think it was a high stakes issue?

I think my children's education IS a high stakes issue and if a school was even near flunking out of the NCLB standards I think I'd be rolling up my sleeves and getting to work fixing that school right now, today, not tomorrow, not next year... My kids are in school now, and the schools have to meet at least a minimum level of performance or else they should be shut down.

Learn what high-stakes and low-stakes refers to. high-stakes means that jobs and funding are on the line. Low means they aren't. Nothing more. Standardized tests give an idea of what children know. I'll say that again. it is an IDEA. not everything, not 100% accurate, not perfect, and certainly not something funding should be based off of. NCLB, to date, has not shown itself to improve schools at all (particularly the high-stakes testing part). Want to know why? A test doesn't teach anything. It tests. Want a good idea of how well your local school is actually doing? Check out your NAEP score. Want to see a biased test meant to get more money? Look to your local NCLB test.

You're talking to a teacher (NER) and a student teacher (me). I've been studing this law for the last 3 years. I've witnessed the MCAS. I've delt with them for the last 2 years. We know what we're talking about. It isn't just passing the test. There are requirements for yearly improvement, and a significant amount of funding is tied to this. Missing out on that funding, for even a year, can be devestating for a town.

School isn't about learning facts, which is what standardized tests test. It is about learning how to think. If you have to have a certain number of students pass a test, or else you get fired and your school loses its funding, then you teach to the test rather than teaching students how to think.

And you’re talking to a parent that sees the results and gets the children’s reports cards on their grades AND gets the NCLB report card for the school and the teachers that their children go to. A parent that pays attention and deals with multiple teachers every single year. Every child and every teacher being different. Some teachers struggle more than others.

I know that there are expectations to meet minimum standards. There should be standards to meet. The children can't have a a teacher or a program that (for whatever reason) has an 'off year.' The children might not be able to recover from too many minimum standard years if they happen all in a row.

Every teacher, every class has a class agenda for the year before it begins, and because so many children were graduating from school with less than acceptable minimum standards, the people demanded that the government had to intervene and enforce minimum standards from coast to coast. If it’s hard, good, the standards might not be too low then.

However, I acknowledge that different states have different standards and if your state has a completely messed up plan for meeting the NCLB standard that is unworkable or counterproductive, your state should fix that issue.

On a side note, I recall reading about a 17 yr old honor student in Florida who failed the state test, was told she can't graduate with everyone else, and she tried to kill herself.

She must have had a really bad day.... :eek:

I took the PSAT back in October, and scored higher that 94% of sophomores in reading, 88% of sophomores in math, and 94% of sophomores in writing.... (not to brag... ;))

But anyway, the state tests really don't help at all. The EOGs (End-of-Grade Tests, meant for grades 3-8) are quite difficult and the EOCs (End of Course) tests are quite easy even if you have a D in the class (believe me, I took the geometry EOC and it was quite easy, and I had a D at the time). The thing is, though, this year they used a new math test in everything, and used field test items on the real test (which explains all those retarded z-axis problems, thank Bob they don't count against me). In elementary and middle school oyu can get held back if you fail the test even if you passed the class. Is that fair? It's a test. Just one test. One test doesn't reflect how well someone did over the year/semester... jeebus...

And no, I am not making this up, this is what in-service teachers have been complaining about since NCLB came into play. Those tests now dominate the school year. The pressure from school administrators/school boards/parents to get everyone to pass is intense and is causing abandonment or skimming of other parts of the curricula just to make damn sure everyone is passing. Even if the kids are doing fine, they're still drill and kill because THAT'S what NCLB has done. It hasn't rasied standards, it's keeping them depressed for many students who are forced to cover the same topics over and over again.
Just for the hell of it, lets show an example. The MCAS are the NCLB test of Mass. It was in place long before NCLB, and will be around long after. Since NCLB, however, it has become a graduation requirement. Let's look at the writing section. These are for 10th graders.

May 2005:
Often works of literature include characters that change as a result of a particular event.

From a work of literature that you have read in or out of school, select a character that has been changed by a particular event. In a well-developed composition, identify the character, describe the event, and explain why the character's change is important to the work of literature.

I have an entire packet of these questions. If you think this is setting the bar high, and demanding that our students are proficient in literature, you are severly wrong. These are jokes. They literally pain me to read.

What is the problem? These are maybe 8th grade level questions...probably closer to 7th. So you learn no new skills, no new arguments. You aren't considering literature on a higher level...you are being trained to write a nice 5 paragraph pursuasive essay with a pre-created thesis.

And you’re talking to a parent that sees the results and gets the children’s reports cards on their grades AND gets the NCLB report card for the school and the teachers that their children go to. A parent that pays attention and deals with multiple teachers every single year. Every child and every teacher being different. Some teachers struggle more than others.So you've studied NCLB? Several times? And you've taken the tests? And you've watched students take the test? And you've read their answers? Watched how the school teaches? Yeah...

I know that there are expectations to meet minimum standards. There should be standards to meet. The children can't have a a teacher or a program that (for whatever reason) has an 'off year.' The children might not be able to recover from too many minimum standard years if they happen all in a row.And there is no difference between classes? Clearly, every class should perform exactly the same, year after year? That is what NCLB assumes. And it fails BECAUSE of that. Guess what? Every class is not created equal. Every test is not the same. Every class isn't even the same from day to day. To ignore that is to ruin education.

Every teacher, every class has a class agenda for the year before it begins, and because so many children were graduating from school with less than acceptable minimum standards, the people demanded that the government had to intervene and enforce minimum standards from coast to coast. If it’s hard, good, the standards might not be too low then.
It isn't hard. That isn't the point. They are actually inanely easy. The issue is not, has not been, nor will it be the difficulty. Nor is anyone claiming that. The issue is TEACHING TO THE TEST.
However, I acknowledge that different states have different standards and if your state has a completely messed up plan for meeting the NCLB standard that is unworkable or counterproductive, your state should fix that issue.
I'm from CT. I'm in school in MA. These are two of, if not the two, top performing states.

I hold so much respect for you Sarkhaan, you are totally right about the MCAS.

And in Massachusetts, thanks to NCLB, the amount of funds going to gifted education has reached 0$ per year. ROCK-BOTTOM!!!

To all NCLB believers:

This essay is a seminal work on gifted education. I implore you to read this in order to show that the high-standards set forth by a bureaucrat sitting at a desk are not tied to the needs of gifted children.

http://www.stephanietolan.com/is_it_a_cheetah.htm

Furthermore,

The narrow standards of NCLB that, for instance, only carry reading comprehension requirements up until the third-grade (we don't want kids actually understanding things, do we? Like the Constitution of the United States or Plato's Republic later in life, or even a regular novel!!!), are only grounded in what special-interest groups throughout the country have set. To publish a textbook, it has to go through a long, arduous process like finding a publisher and getting it reviewed by school boards and various organizations (usually very conservative and want to force a Patriotism standard on textbooks, usually based in Texas, actually). In the end, so much information is taken out that what is left is rote material.

When faced with a choice between teaching students knowledge that is grounded in painstaking research, or knowledge decided by special-interest groups, what is your choice?

She must have had a really bad day.... :eek:

I took the PSAT back in October, and scored higher that 94% of sophomores in reading, 88% of sophomores in math, and 94% of sophomores in writing.... (not to brag... ;))

But anyway, the state tests really don't help at all. The EOGs (End-of-Grade Tests, meant for grades 3-8) are quite difficult and the EOCs (End of Course) tests are quite easy even if you have a D in the class (believe me, I took the geometry EOC and it was quite easy, and I had a D at the time). The thing is, though, this year they used a new math test in everything, and used field test items on the real test (which explains all those retarded z-axis problems, thank Bob they don't count against me). In elementary and middle school oyu can get held back if you fail the test even if you passed the class. Is that fair? It's a test. Just one test. One test doesn't reflect how well someone did over the year/semester... jeebus...

Good job on the PSAT. I've taken it every year since 9th grade, and I can't remember how well I did freshman year, but I was in the top 1% both last year and this year. (So hopefully I have a chance of becoming a National Merit Semi-finalist. I hope I do, at least.)

To all NCLB believers:

This essay is a seminal work on gifted education. I implore you to read this in order to show that the high-standards set forth by a bureaucrat sitting at a desk are not tied to the needs of gifted children.

http://www.stephanietolan.com/is_it_a_cheetah.htm

Furthermore,

The narrow standards of NCLB that, for instance, only carry reading comprehension requirements up until the third-grade (we don't want kids actually understanding things, do we? Like the Constitution of the United States or Plato's Republic later in life, or even a regular novel!!!), are only grounded in what special-interest groups throughout the country have set. To publish a textbook, it has to go through a long, arduous process like finding a publisher and getting it reviewed by school boards and various organizations (usually very conservative and want to force a Patriotism standard on textbooks, usually based in Texas, actually). In the end, so much information is taken out that what is left is rote material.

When faced with a choice between teaching students knowledge that is grounded in painstaking research, or knowledge decided by special-interest groups, what is your choice?

If your state has messed up standards that don't work, they have nobody to blame but themselves...

http://www.ed.gov/news/pressreleases/2004/01/01142004.html

If your state has messed up standards that don't work, they have nobody to blame but themselves...

http://www.ed.gov/news/pressreleases/2004/01/01142004.html
I will say it again. MA is one of the top performing states in the US, if not the best.

NCLB and other standardized tests ARE NOT THE SOLE FACTOR IN A SCHOOL SYSTEM. see NERVUNs post earlier for a great analogy

Good job on the PSAT. I've taken it every year since 9th grade, and I can't remember how well I did freshman year, but I was in the top 1% both last year and this year. (So hopefully I have a chance of becoming a National Merit Semi-finalist. I hope I do, at least.)

I took it, and never qualified for an NMS. I did get a 1350 on the SAT, however, so it must have helped.

I will say it again. MA is one of the top performing states in the US, if not the best.

NCLB and other standardized tests ARE NOT THE SOLE FACTOR IN A SCHOOL SYSTEM. see NERVUNs post earlier for a great analogy

http://www.ed.gov/nclb/overview/intro/parents/parentfacts.html

I took it, and never qualified for an NMS. I did get a 1350 on the SAT, however, so it must have helped.

My friend got a similar score to mine last year and he is a semi-finalist this year. I'm hoping that means that I could have a chance.

I haven't taken the SAT yet (I've signed up to take it this Saturday), but I got a 31 on the ACT.

http://www.ed.gov/nclb/overview/intro/parents/parentfacts.html
Oh good, you've shown you know how to use Google and find the DoEd website. Now do you have a point to show or will you actually start addressing the concerns that we've posted?

Oh good, you've shown you know how to use Google and find the DoEd website. Now do you have a point to show or will you actually start addressing the concerns that we've posted?

I've already addressed your concerns.

I see it working. I see how it helps me and other parents. I see how it has helped my children. I've already told you that. You want to dismiss that, you want to say it doesn't work when my own experience shows that it does work.

I've given you the benefit of the doubt, that it doesn't work in your state because you say so. You have not given me the benefit of the doubt that I've seen benefits from the Act in my state.

Why do I need to address the issues in your state? I don't know anything about your state except what you say about it. If your school district spends all it's time cramming for the tests and the parents in those schools don't do anything about it, that's too bad for the kids then isn't it. The parents and the school administration should fix that shortcoming, that failure.

My kids might spend a couple of weeks out of the year reviewing for the tests, I know because I read their curriculum and I ask them what they did in school every single day. I know that they aren’t cramming for the same tests over and over again here. If they were, I’d do something about it.

I've already addressed your concerns.

I see it working. I see how it helps me and other parents. I see how it has helped my children. I've already told you that. You want to dismiss that, you want to say it doesn't work when my own experience shows that it does work.

I've given you the benefit of the doubt, that it doesn't work in your state because you say so. You have not given me the benefit of the doubt that I've seen benefits from the Act in my state.

Why do I need to address the issues in your state? I don't know anything about your state except what you say about it. If your school district spends all it's time cramming for the tests and the parents in those schools don't do anything about it, that's too bad for the kids then isn't it. The parents and the school administration should fix that shortcoming, that failure.

My kids might spend a couple of weeks out of the year reviewing for the tests, I know because I read their curriculum and I ask them what they did in school every single day. I know that they aren’t cramming for the same tests over and over again here. If they were, I’d do something about it.
Hawai'i
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070122/NEWS07/701220341/1001/NEWS
At the same time, teachers have been raising concerns about the increased number of tests the department has mandated this year — including quarterly assessments of students at every school, not just those in restructuring — and the additional time being taken away from instruction to score and evaluate those tests.

"We're just testing, testing, testing when we should be teaching, teaching, teaching," said Roger Takabayashi, president of the Hawai'i State Teachers Association, the union that serves Hawai'i's 13,200 public school teachers.

Colorado
http://www.summitdaily.com/article/20070123/NEWS/70123001
DENVER — The federal education reform law No Child Left Behind is unrealistic and underfunded, according to Colorado educators responding to a survey conducted by U.S. Sen. Ken Salazar as Congress gets ready to decide whether to reauthorize the law.

Arkansas
http://www.texarkanagazette.com/articles/2007/01/24/local_news/news/news62.txt
“We have had to focus on teaching the state standards between August and March or April so that students will be ready to take the state tests,” Tucker said. “We had to align the curriculum with what is being tested, focus more on the way that students are taught and the way that we assess them.”

Iowa
http://www.whotv.com/global/story.asp?s=5979727
Many teachers are concerned about the intense pressure of achievement in math and reading. They wonder if students are shortchanged in other subjects in order for the school to avoid winding up on the list.

Illinois
http://nwitimes.com/articles/2007/01/24/news/illiana/df914d6afd5750a88625726d00066ec3.txt
"Everything now is focused on math and reading scores," said Allen, a music teacher at Chute Middle School in Evanston who is witness to students being pulled from her classes for remedial help in math and reading.

California
http://www.fresnobee.com/263/story/25854.html
Fresno Teachers Association President Larry Moore called it "a failed policy" that should be gutted or discarded. No Child Left Behind has created a system focused on test scores that may not equate to quality education, Moore said.

"Are we really leveling the playing field, or are we just pandering to test scores?" he said.

Montana
http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2007/01/24/news/local/znews03.txt
“The state can't make AYP if one school district didn't make it,” Lamson said. “So every state in the union didn't make AYP last year. It's kind of a superfluous figure.

“This is part of the pyramid scheme of No Child Left Behind. You keep adding numbers of people tested and raising the bar for the tests, and eventually you'll have no schools making AYP. That's why you're seeing calls in Congress to make the program more realistic.”

You want me to keep going? Get something from every state showing teachers are disatsified with NCLB along the same reasons that we have been positing here?

One parent of two children in one school in one district's experiance Vs. the experiance of in-service teachers in a wide range of schools across the United States.

Perhaps you shouldn't 'diss' Google a post before extensively using it yourself...

But sure, go on and amuse yourself by continuing to find quotes from teachers, assuming one for every state at least, that say they (the teachers) don't approve of being graded themselves and having these grades sent to the parents in their school districts. And I’ll find you quotes of students that don’t like their parents getting their grades either...

We all know that the teacher’s unions don't like having their members actually have to perform, not even to a minimum standard, that’s been well established outside of this thread.

Perhaps you shouldn't 'diss' Google a post before extensively using it yourself...

But sure, go on and amuse yourself by continuing to find quotes from teachers, assuming one for every state at least, that say they (the teachers) don't approve of being graded themselves and having these grades sent to the parents in their school districts. And I’ll find you quotes of students that don’t like their parents getting their grades either...

Did you ever consider the possibility that your state is the exception, rather than the rule?

And it wasn't Google he was dissing.

We all know that the teacher’s unions don't like having their members actually have to perform, not even to a minimum standard, that’s been well established outside of this thread.

I see the fangs are out now.

That's a strawman argument, and so is Dem's post. I don't see any children being held back, I didn't say anything about anyone being held up, I even pointed out that my own son was invited to participate in an advance course), I don't see any closures of talent development courses (advanced courses for children that excel in a particular field).

Who and where are these schools of children that are supposedly being held back because of NCLB standards? If they are so advanced, or so logic would dictate, then the NCLB standard should be nothing more than a single day of testing for them and they can move on to their advanced studies again, they should pass it so readily...

However, who said anything about it not being fair that some children are doing better than others? Not I, thus, you made it up. Strawman.


I grew up in a school system where funding was tied to standardized test scores, we took one test in the fall and one in the spring, when we started a new school year we all took a practice test, whoever got the low score dictated what we learned all the way until November, when we took the test, whoever got the low score on that dictated everything we learned until the practice test in the winter, whoever got the low score on that dictated everything we learned until the big test in the spring. I was held back, I had to spend 4 years of my life learning the same damn thing every freaking day so that the idiot behind me might get a better score on the bubble it in test.

When you teach to the lowest common denominator all the kids who are average or above are being stiffed and that's just the truth. Even when I could get into honors classes the curriculum at the school was based on 'what most kids had problems with' which meant that my "advanced" English classes were spent talking about nouns and pronouns, my "advanced" Geometry class spent the entire year talking about the difference between a square and a rectangle. We were all forced to take a class that I can only describe as "remedial reading" where we read classics such as "Ramona the Pest".......oh, wait it gets better. THIS WAS SENIOR YEAR!!!!

I didn't even have to go to school, I didn't want to, I moved out, got a job, and showed up for tests. I showed up high for tests, I didn't have to think, because it was the same freaking test every year, the 8th grade level ITBS. Same questions, same answers, and same idiot behind me who for 8 hours 4 times a year marked in his bubbles at random, damning me to remedial hell.

that's my own personal experience. :mad:

http://www.ed.gov/nclb/overview/intro/parents/parentfacts.html
a) no, a .gov website won't be biased towards a GOVERNMENT PROGRAM
b) I've read the law. I've studied it under two of the professors who are considered the most informed. I know the law without a damn rundown.
I've already addressed your concerns.

I see it working. I see how it helps me and other parents. I see how it has helped my children. I've already told you that. You want to dismiss that, you want to say it doesn't work when my own experience shows that it does work.

I've given you the benefit of the doubt, that it doesn't work in your state because you say so. You have not given me the benefit of the doubt that I've seen benefits from the Act in my state.

Why do I need to address the issues in your state? I don't know anything about your state except what you say about it. If your school district spends all it's time cramming for the tests and the parents in those schools don't do anything about it, that's too bad for the kids then isn't it. The parents and the school administration should fix that shortcoming, that failure.

My kids might spend a couple of weeks out of the year reviewing for the tests, I know because I read their curriculum and I ask them what they did in school every single day. I know that they aren’t cramming for the same tests over and over again here. If they were, I’d do something about it.
Are you in the class? DO you watch it go on? Do you know what the review is? It isn't just practice tests, it isn't just drills. It goes much deeper. It becomes the full curriculum. They teach what is most likely to be on the test, rather than teaching students to look and learn for themselves, and more over, HOW to do so. Like I said, it is teaching to the test, teaching the "what" instead of "how" and "why".

I grew up in a school system where funding was tied to standardized test scores, we took one test in the fall and one in the spring, when we started a new school year we all took a practice test, whoever got the low score dictated what we learned all the way until November, when we took the test, whoever got the low score on that dictated everything we learned until the practice test in the winter, whoever got the low score on that dictated everything we learned until the big test in the spring. I was held back, I had to spend 4 years of my life learning the same damn thing every freaking day so that the idiot behind me might get a better score on the bubble it in test.

When you teach to the lowest common denominator all the kids who are average or above are being stiffed and that's just the truth. Even when I could get into honors classes the curriculum at the school was based on 'what most kids had problems with' which meant that my "advanced" English classes were spent talking about nouns and pronouns, my "advanced" Geometry class spent the entire year talking about the difference between a square and a rectangle. We were all forced to take a class that I can only describe as "remedial reading" where we read classics such as "Ramona the Pest".......oh, wait it gets better. THIS WAS SENIOR YEAR!!!!

I didn't even have to go to school, I didn't want to, I moved out, got a job, and showed up for tests. I showed up high for tests, I didn't have to think, because it was the same freaking test every year, the 8th grade level ITBS. Same questions, same answers, and same idiot behind me who for 8 hours 4 times a year marked in his bubbles at random, damning me to remedial hell.

that's my own personal experience. :mad:
This is what terrifies me about becoming a teacher.

Perhaps you shouldn't 'diss' Google a post before extensively using it yourself...
Difference is, I was addressing your point. You, however, did not.

We all know that the teacher’s unions don't like having their members actually have to perform, not even to a minimum standard, that’s been well established outside of this thread.
Ah! Of course, of course. And here once again we trot out the bad man himself, the Teacher's Union. I love it. Whenever folks such as yourself find out that teachers, who should know something about education after all, are saying that President Bush's education plan (Drawn up by oil company presidents) isn't working, it's all due to the Teacher's Union not wanting teachers to work for a living.

I've always wondered just why it is that teachers are somehow not competent whereas you'd never question your mechanic or your doctor when he or she tells you something's wrong.

This is what terrifies me about becoming a teacher.
Me too. What makes me ashamed to BE a teacher at times is knowing that a lot of teachers fall to that program too easily instead of trying harder.

Difference is, I was addressing your point. You, however, did not.


Ah! Of course, of course. And here once again we trot out the bad man himself, the Teacher's Union. I love it. Whenever folks such as yourself find out that teachers, who should know something about education after all, are saying that President Bush's education plan (Drawn up by oil company presidents) isn't working, it's all due to the Teacher's Union not wanting teachers to work for a living.

I've always wondered just why it is that teachers are somehow not competent whereas you'd never question your mechanic or your doctor when he or she tells you something's wrong.
clearly, only a teachers union is evil. Not a nurses union. Not a factory union. Just teachers. And we have no idea what we're talking about. We're in it for the money and the prestige.
Me too. What makes me ashamed to BE a teacher at times is knowing that a lot of teachers fall to that program too easily instead of trying harder.Sometimes I wonder if I'll ever do that. I mean, urban burnout is 5 years, and to make decent pay (even up here) I don't see much choice beyond urban...

Sometimes I wonder if I'll ever do that. I mean, urban burnout is 5 years, and to make decent pay (even up here) I don't see much choice beyond urban...
I think you'll do fine. Everytime I start feeling burned out, one of my kids does something to remind me why I became a teacher in the first place, even if it's something as silly as one of my student's daily sumo thumb challenge.

I think you'll do fine. Everytime I start feeling burned out, one of my kids does something to remind me why I became a teacher in the first place, even if it's something as silly as one of my student's daily sumo thumb challenge.

thanks.
That is exactly what I'm hoping...I don't want to go corporate, and think I'll love teaching...but it is a damn intimidating profession to be going in to

I think you'll do fine. Everytime I start feeling burned out, one of my kids does something to remind me why I became a teacher in the first place, even if it's something as silly as one of my student's daily sumo thumb challenge.
My boyfriend is a teacher, and he had one of those moments today. One of his students who doesn't usually do really well asked him a question that he said was really piercing and insightful; he said it made him feel like he'd just been handed a million dollars.

EDIT: Oh, and to answer the OP? I don't claim to be intimately familiar with NCLB and its effects on the American school system, but I do know a lot of teachers. All of them feel that it was a bad move which has negatively affected their classrooms. I'd say that's not a good sign.

My boyfriend is a teacher, and he had one of those moments today. One of his students who doesn't usually do really well asked him a question that he said was really piercing and insightful; he said it made him feel like he'd just been handed a million dollars.

EDIT: Oh, and to answer the OP? I don't claim to be intimately familiar with NCLB and its effects on the American school system, but I do know a lot of teachers. All of them feel that it was a bad move which has negatively affected their classrooms. I'd say that's not a good sign.

It is things like this (http://www.gaijinsmash.net/archives/moekos_owl.phtml) that make me long to be a teacher. First time I read that, I'm not gonna lie, I teared up. Which is rare.

I'd say that the bill is likely to be extended, but not entirely renewed. I admit that the law isn't entirely bad, but as far as execution, every part has failed. Higher demands for teachers (demanding a bachelors, the WWC) are good ideas, but horribly implemented.

This is what terrifies me about becoming a teacher.

You'd still make an excellent one.

You'd still make an excellent one.
:fluffle:

This is what terrifies me about becoming a teacher.

I couldn't handle the teaching in a public school, I was a sub for about a month last year, I thought I would pick up some extra money and stuff....it was terrible. Because the kids are being so bogged down in "just enough to score a little better" they are really missing out on the kind of education I am able to provide for my children. I really see a spark in some of the kids, but it was dying fast.

That being said, I didn't have enough time with any of them to really make the kind of lasting impact I wanted, you on the other hand would have them everyday (or every other day depending on the schedule) and you could make a difference.

I had one teacher, one really awesome teacher, and he shaped my attitude towards learning, you could totally be that for a kid. I have faith that you can.

I couldn't handle the teaching in a public school, I was a sub for about a month last year, I thought I would pick up some extra money and stuff....it was terrible. Because the kids are being so bogged down in "just enough to score a little better" they are really missing out on the kind of education I am able to provide for my children. I really see a spark in some of the kids, but it was dying fast. Being a sub is always hard because students tend to take advantage...but I definatly know what you're talking about. There just isn't enough time in the day. Back in the 60's, and up to the early 90's, we looked at education and said it should be done entirely in schools. We now look at it and say that it has to be done everywhere...family, community, church, whereever the child goes. That is how to nurture that spark. Parental involvement is one of the biggest indicators of child success.

That being said, I didn't have enough time with any of them to really make the kind of lasting impact I wanted, you on the other hand would have them everyday (or every other day depending on the schedule) and you could make a difference.

I had one teacher, one really awesome teacher, and he shaped my attitude towards learning, you could totally be that for a kid. I have faith that you can.I was lucky enough to have four of that kind of teacher, and I definatly credit them with my choice to go into education. I'm somewhat realistic...I know I won't make every student love English, or even make them all pass a single test. But if I can make one student appreciate it, or change one students life, even if it isn't in English, then I think I'll have done my job well. It is just a little...well, scary...to think that I will be in control of a student.

Your words are really appreciated. Not sure when this thread turned to be an "encourage Sarky", but I'm not hating it. Particularly from you, NER and Straughn :fluffle:

That being said, I didn't have enough time with any of them to really make the kind of lasting impact I wanted, you on the other hand would have them everyday (or every other day depending on the schedule) and you could make a difference.
You never know. Seriously, sometimes your kids tell you about how you have inspired them, but most of the time they wander off and you never know what a difference you made till years later, if ever.

I remember some of my subs who did make a difference. ;)

It hasn't rasied standards, it's keeping them depressed for many students who are forced to cover the same topics over and over again.

And I can attest to the fact that, as a student, that sort of thing not only makes you less interested in learning in the first place, but can actually be the cause of bad grades. Once you get bored enough, you largely stop paying attention to what you're doing, and thus you make more mistakes.


I know that there are expectations to meet minimum standards. There should be standards to meet. The children can't have a a teacher or a program that (for whatever reason) has an 'off year.' The children might not be able to recover from too many minimum standard years if they happen all in a row.

Every teacher, every class has a class agenda for the year before it begins, and because so many children were graduating from school with less than acceptable minimum standards, the people demanded that the government had to intervene and enforce minimum standards from coast to coast. If it’s hard, good, the standards might not be too low then.

What about children who shouldn't be meeting those standards - those who need to progress at a slower rate? Why should entire classes be held to hammering away at those standards when it is a few students - those who should be in a less advanced class anyways - who are not understanding?

This contributes once again to my plan to execute every politician in washington, fire a neutron bomb into it, and then spray the entire city with disinfectant. And vaporize the top 5 feet of soil. Then we elect new leaders.

No Child Left Behind, HA! It should say, Every Child Left Behind. What does one learn just on testing? Nothing. Our government especially Bush are to blame for our economical, educational, and welfare. They can't support us like they said they would. If we don't get change soon, our country will be headed down a dark path.

And if YOUR children are in that school and that school isn't performing up to the minimum standards, would YOU think it was a high stakes issue?

I think my children's education IS a high stakes issue and if a school was even near flunking out of the NCLB standards I think I'd be rolling up my sleeves and getting to work fixing that school right now, today, not tomorrow, not next year... My kids are in school now, and the schools have to meet at least a minimum level of performance or else they should be shut down.

Problems with NCLB and your statement. You're not in education so I'm sure you have merely a cursory understanding of what these indicators are and mean.

1. By 2014 every child, every subject, and every subsection will be "proficient." This is like telling the police that by 2014 there will be no crime, or at worst they'll catch every criminal and have them found guilty. It is unrealistic.

2. Mandating something while underfunding it is setting the system up for failure. Did Bush do this intentionally to push vouchers? You decide.

3. Subsections do not meet AYP then the entire school is seen as "in need." If the first year 94% of the total population is at or above standards in math and language arts you are doing a pretty good job. However, your autistic children didn't meet their numbers so you are seen as in need. Year 2: Total numbers go to %96 and you're excited about that. The autistic program scores above the passing levels so that subsection is fine. Low and behold your English as a Second Language kids were just below passing levels. Now your school has failed to make AYP=adequate yearly progress. Even though your overall numbers are great and the group that was low last year is now flying high, you are "in need." I could continue but you see the pattern forming because next year your numbers are 98% and the "economically disadvantaged kids" have gone down and you're having programs and funds stripped to "punish the bad schools."

4. A school that has more kids passing the test attending college than any other in the state can be a "broken school?" Under the current criteria yes it can.

5. The minimum is being met in almost every school in America, but the subgroups hurt the school. Finally, the minimum you speak of is %100 by 2014. Every single student passes? Not a single one will have a bad test day? Not a single one will be simply incapable of meeting standards? Every egg a chicken lays will be perfect for inspection and go to the stores to make your breakfast?

The concept of the law is a great and noble one. The devil is in the details and the functional and operational reality of the situation. Bush has a lot of half baked ideas with some good merits. That doesn't mean they don't wind up hurting or destroying what they wanted to fix.

They better not repass it. The test-frenzy just causes more stress for kids, wastes money, and cuts in on the ability of teachers to discuss and explore their student's questions and observations.

No! Teachers spend more time for the SATs than they do taking questions and exploring a student's mind. The SATs have to go as does the Federal Department of Education.

No! Teachers spend more time for the SATs than they do taking questions and exploring a student's mind. The SATs have to go as does the Federal Department of Education.

Uh, no, one does not have to take the SATs to get out of high school... only the High School Exit Exam, which people that have recently graduated can tell you has material comparable to 8th grade course material.

Pathetic.

No Child Left Behind, HA! It should say, Every Child Left Behind. What does one learn just on testing? Nothing. Our government especially Bush are to blame for our economical, educational, and welfare. They can't support us like they said they would. If we don't get change soon, our country will be headed down a dark path.

I wanted to ignore this, but i can't... its too stupid.

Look... the NCLB act passed 87-10 in the senate and pretty well in the house as well... I mean, even Ted Kennedy was a promoter of the bill. It was even hailed as one of the few bipartisan legislations of the Bush admin. so, no, its not bush's fault... just no.

I admit that NCLB is a bad thing, but i mean, a dark path? sounds like a bad stephen king novel...

Read this!!!

www.storm-lake.k12.ia.us/Admin/Pages/ncowlb.htm

Interestingly, I watched the relevant part of the State of the Union again today...Bush claimed that the achievement gap was closing. Interestingly, the stat he cited was from 2001, when NCLB was instated. It has since grown again. He also cited the fact that we have nearly closed the attainment gap, which masks the fact that we've lowered standards to do that. The attainment gap now appears in our universities.

I wanted to ignore this, but i can't... its too stupid.

Look... the NCLB act passed 87-10 in the senate and pretty well in the house as well... I mean, even Ted Kennedy was a promoter of the bill. It was even hailed as one of the few bipartisan legislations of the Bush admin. so, no, its not bush's fault... just no.

I admit that NCLB is a bad thing, but i mean, a dark path? sounds like a bad stephen king novel...
actually, Ted Kennedy was not just a promoter, he sponsored it.

I grew up in a school system where funding was tied to standardized test scores, we took one test in the fall and one in the spring, when we started a new school year we all took a practice test, whoever got the low score dictated what we learned all the way until November, when we took the test, whoever got the low score on that dictated everything we learned until the practice test in the winter, whoever got the low score on that dictated everything we learned until the big test in the spring. I was held back, I had to spend 4 years of my life learning the same damn thing every freaking day so that the idiot behind me might get a better score on the bubble it in test.

When you teach to the lowest common denominator all the kids who are average or above are being stiffed and that's just the truth. Even when I could get into honors classes the curriculum at the school was based on 'what most kids had problems with' which meant that my "advanced" English classes were spent talking about nouns and pronouns, my "advanced" Geometry class spent the entire year talking about the difference between a square and a rectangle. We were all forced to take a class that I can only describe as "remedial reading" where we read classics such as "Ramona the Pest".......oh, wait it gets better. THIS WAS SENIOR YEAR!!!!

I didn't even have to go to school, I didn't want to, I moved out, got a job, and showed up for tests. I showed up high for tests, I didn't have to think, because it was the same freaking test every year, the 8th grade level ITBS. Same questions, same answers, and same idiot behind me who for 8 hours 4 times a year marked in his bubbles at random, damning me to remedial hell.

that's my own personal experience. :mad:



Sounds like you have a F*cked up school system. Maybe the parents should demand more. Never got anything messed up like that in my school, heck we had all kinds of AP classes, we had classes that went beyond the norm and I remember a lot of teachers who would take extra time out of their day when a student needed extra help that way the whole class did not get stuck on the same thing. So perhaps the problem lies with the quality of the teachers in your school and/or the administrators who run them.
That was in the suburbs, now I live way out in the rural area of our state, and I see some excellent schools out here as well and while there are some whose methods seem to lack I have seen many of those over the years change some of those methods and while things will never be perfect anywhere. Involvement is very important in getting things fixed.

clearly, only a teachers union is evil. Not a nurses union. Not a factory union. Just teachers. And we have no idea what we're talking about. We're in it for the money and the prestige.
Sometimes I wonder if I'll ever do that. I mean, urban burnout is 5 years, and to make decent pay (even up here) I don't see much choice beyond urban...

Hey we have a good teachers union up here.....some of the higest paid in the state, working without a contract also. But the nurses union on the other hand...a very evil entity.

It is things like this (http://www.gaijinsmash.net/archives/moekos_owl.phtml) that make me long to be a teacher. First time I read that, I'm not gonna lie, I teared up. Which is rare.

I'd say that the bill is likely to be extended, but not entirely renewed. I admit that the law isn't entirely bad, but as far as execution, every part has failed. Higher demands for teachers (demanding a bachelors, the WWC) are good ideas, but horribly implemented.

Thank you for sharing that it was good.

Our state does require a bachelors for being a teacher, I do not see where that is a bad thing.