NationStates Jolt Archive

If this is true, it completely changes my mind about her.

JAKARTA, Indonesia (CNN) -- Allegations that Sen. Barack Obama was educated in a radical Muslim school known as a "madrassa" are not accurate, according to CNN reporting.

Insight Magazine, which is owned by the same company as The Washington Times, reported on its Web site last week that associates of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-New York, had unearthed information the Illinois Democrat and likely presidential candidate attended a Muslim religious school known for teaching the most fundamentalist form of Islam.

Obama lived in Indonesia as a child, from 1967 to 1971, with his mother and step-father and has acknowledged attending a Muslim school, but an aide said it was not a madrassa.

Insight attributed the information in its article to an unnamed source, who said it was discovered by "researchers connected to Senator Clinton." A spokesman for Clinton, who is also weighing a White House bid, denied that the campaign was the source of the Obama claim.

He called the story "an obvious right-wing hit job."

Insight stood by its story in a response posted on its Web site Monday afternoon.

The Insight article was cited several times Friday on Fox News and was also referenced by the New York Post, The Glenn Beck program on CNN Headline News and a number of political blogs.

School not a madrassa
But reporting by CNN in Jakarta, Indonesia and Washington, D.C., shows the allegations that Obama attended a madrassa to be false. CNN dispatched Senior International Correspondent John Vause to Jakarta to investigate.

He visited the Basuki school, which Obama attended from 1969 to 1971.

"This is a public school. We don't focus on religion," Hardi Priyono, deputy headmaster of the Basuki school, told Vause. "In our daily lives, we try to respect religion, but we don't give preferential treatment."

Vause reported he saw boys and girls dressed in neat school uniforms playing outside the school, while teachers were dressed in Western-style clothes.

"I came here to Barack Obama's elementary school in Jakarta looking for what some are calling an Islamic madrassa ... like the ones that teach hate and violence in Pakistan and Afghanistan," Vause said on the "Situation Room" Monday. "I've been to those madrassas in Pakistan ... this school is nothing like that."

Vause also interviewed one of Obama's Basuki classmates, Bandug Winadijanto, who claims that not a lot has changed at the school since the two men were pupils. Insight reported that Obama's political opponents believed the school promoted Wahhabism, a fundamentalist form of Islam, "and are seeking to prove it."

"It's not (an) Islamic school. It's general," Winadijanto said. "There is a lot of Christians, Buddhists, also Confucian. ... So that's a mixed school."

The Obama aide described Fox News' broadcasting of the Insight story "appallingly irresponsible."

Fox News executive Bill Shine told CNN "Reliable Sources" anchor Howard Kurtz that some of the network's hosts were simply expressing their opinions and repeatedly cited Insight as the source of the allegations.

Obama has noted in his two books, "Dreams From My Father" and "The Audacity of Hope," that he spent two years in a Muslim school and another two years in a Catholic school while living in Indonesia from age 6 to 10.

What a (Insert something bad). Seriously a backstabbing little...

WTH??? Why would it matter anyway what kind of school he went to?

Apparently they're convinced if you go to a muslim school, you instantly want to murder America.

It's like how in the Cold War, you wouldn't elect a russian guy.

Which is funny, because all the Muslims I know are much more friendly, caring, hospitable, etc than most of the Christians I know.

SHUT UP YOU BASTARD!

...This is very offensive to whores.

:p <---this demonstrates that the "shut up you bastard" is not a flame. If you interprated it as a flame...Well, to be honest I don't really give a damn.

You're right, I better take that out. Whores have more morals than that...
???? (Need a pronoun here people!)

WTH??? Why would it matter anyway what kind of school he went to?

Apparently they're convinced if you go to a muslim school, you instantly want to murder America.

It's like how in the Cold War, you wouldn't elect a russian guy.

What a whore. Seriously a backstabbing little...

SHUT UP YOU BASTARD!

...This is very offensive to whores.

:p <---this demonstrates that the "shut up you bastard" is not a flame. If you interprated it as a flame...Well, to be honest I don't really give a damn.

What a (Insert something bad). Seriously a backstabbing little...


Call her a dirty mormon! :p

WTH??? Why would it matter anyway what kind of school he went to?
they were *cough*concerned *cough* that Obama attended a Islamic Fundie school.


"This is a public school. We don't focus on religion," Hardi Priyono, deputy headmaster of the Basuki school, told Vause. "In our daily lives, we try to respect religion, but we don't give preferential treatment." now maybe, but what about back in 1969/1971?

of course this won't change my opinion of Obama or of Clinton.

She speaks out against video games as if they're evil incarnate, so her doing this hardly comes as a shock to me.

Or a nice double swing by someone else: Paint Barak as the Ebul Muslim! and Clinton as the Backstabber. Two Democrats smeared for the price of one.

We'll see how this developes. She might be slimy enough to be behind it...

Or a nice double swing by someone else: Paint Barak as the Ebul Muslim! and Clinton as the Backstabber. Two Democrats smeared for the price of one.

Fits the script, really. I mean, c'mon, "I don't want you to know my name but I do want you to know I'm a Clinton staffer?"

I'm having a hard time buying this.

She speaks out against video games as if they're evil incarnate, so her doing this hardly comes as a shock to me.

Yeah her and Jack Offsom. That alone has killed her for the 30 under crowd.

Wtf is wrong with being Muslim? I'd rather have Osama as president than Bush.

Wtf is wrong with being Muslim? I'd rather have Osama as president than Bush.

Yeaahhhhh, Ummm I hate Bush as much as teh next guy, but that's a bit far. I think if Osama was yoru president you'd be pretty upset by it. Unless that was a typo and you meant Obama...

WTH??? Why would it matter anyway what kind of school he went to?
Never underestimate the power of stupid people. I came across this comment on YouTube.com:

Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim- Obama's father, Barack Hussein Obama, Sr. was a radical. Obama went to school to study Wahabbism - Wahabbism is the radical teaching that created the Muslim terrorists who are now waging Jihad on the USA. Since it is politically expedient to be a Christian when you are seeking political office in the United States, Obama joined the United Church of Christ to help purge any notion that he is still a Muslim

And this mass-forwarded email on Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp):

THE ENEMY WITHIN!

This is the "dude" that some people want to be the next President of the United States

Scary isn't it???????

Speaking bluntly, in a real presidential election, no one in their right mind would vote for Obama. That would be like voting for the guy who just moved in down the street from you, that you wave to from time to time but don't know a thing about. That's Obama. He's been a US Senator for about 100 days, give or take a week. Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a radical Muslim while admitting that he was once a Muslim, mitigating that damning information by saying that, for two years, he also attended a Catholic school.

Obama's father, Barack Hussein Obama, Sr. was a radical Muslim who migrated from Kenya to Jakarta, Indonesia. He met Obama's mother, Ann Dunham, a white atheist from Wichita, Kansas at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. Obama, Sr. and Dunham divorced when Barack, Jr. was two. Obama's spinmeisters are now attempting to make it appear that Obama's introduction to Islam came from his father and that influence was temporary at best. In reality, the senior Obama returned to Kenya immediately following the divorce and never again had any direct influence over his son's education. Dunham married another Muslim, Lolo Soetoro who educated his stepson as a good Muslim by enrolling him in one of Jakarta's Wahabbi schools. Wahabbism is the radical teaching that created the Muslim terrorists who are now waging Jihad on the industrialized world. Since it is politically expedient to be a Christian when you are seeking political office in the United States, Obama joined the United Church of Christ to help purge any notion that he is still a Muslim, which, ideologically, he
remains today.

You know that once the campaigning starts in earnest, these vile, racist rumors will be spread throughout radio, television, and the internet. Doesn't matter if it's true or not... people will lap it up, the same people who believe any other kind of mass email they receive. "NASA FOUND THE BIBLE'S MISSING DAY!", "ACLU TRIED TO REMOVE ARLINGTON CROSSES", and "OBAMA IS AN EVIL MUSLIM"... it'll all be part of their hateful, gullible, suspicious, close-minded, ignorant, and xenophobic conception of the world.

Yeah her and Jack Offsom. That alone has killed her for the 30 under crowd.

Don't forget that bastard Lieberman. He's the worst.

Hold on a second, Dan--the same report that got it wrong about the nature of the school is the one that fingered Hillary, and both parts of the story came from the Moonie Times. See a pattern? Me neither. But it's a bit early to be blaming Hillary for this.

Hold on a second, Dan--the same report that got it wrong about the nature of the school is the one that fingered Hillary, and both parts of the story came from the Moonie Times. See a pattern? Me neither. But it's a bit early to be blaming Hillary for this.

Yeah, I know. In thinking about it I can see that this might be bullshit.

That is dirty politics. I knew Hillary was not expecting a dark horse(...this is completely unintentional) in this race. She has been preening herself for this moment for years. I may be wrong, but I have long been under the impression that she violently hated Obama.

Yeah, I know. In thinking about it I can see that this might be bullshit.
The right wing has, for whatever reason, decided that Hillary Clinton is the antichrist and must be stopped no matter what it takes. I'm no fan of her, but I'm just about to the point where I'll campaign for her just to see their heads explode. And it looks like the rightwingers went for a twofer in this story--smear Obama as a Manchurian candidate and get Hillary for being a bitch.

What is it about her that gets their drawers so twisted in knots?

She speaks out against video games as if they're evil incarnate, so her doing this hardly comes as a shock to me.

Agreed. She's the one who's evil incarnate. Video game-hating bitch. :mad:

Well what do you expect? At this stage, Obama is the best candidatet he Democrats have to offer for 2008. If Hillary wants the White House, she's gotta get by him, and frankly, he's probably got a much better shot anyway.

Don't forget that bastard Lieberman. He's the worst.

Worse than the other two!? :eek:

WTH??? Why would it matter anyway what kind of school he went to?

The same reason retractions of slander are just publicity stunts and do not have any positive effect countering the negative effect of the slander.

The right wing has, for whatever reason, decided that Hillary Clinton is the antichrist and must be stopped no matter what it takes. I'm no fan of her, but I'm just about to the point where I'll campaign for her just to see their heads explode. And it looks like the rightwingers went for a twofer in this story--smear Obama as a Manchurian candidate and get Hillary for being a bitch.

What is it about her that gets their drawers so twisted in knots?

Riiiight can't be Hillary. Everyone knows her ethics and personal integrity are examples for all to follow, despite the fact that she's a politician. Yep. Must be the right-wing. No Democrat would pull a trick like that.:rolleyes:

Remember, this is the same Hillary that specifically ran for senate in a state she's not even from, in order to be in a prominent position as a New York senator. Does anyone seriously believe this wasn't a step toward her goal of presidential candidacy?

Riiiight can't be Hillary. Everyone knows her ethics and personal integrity are examples for all to follow, despite the fact that she's a politician. Yep. Must be the right-wing. No Democrat would pull a trick like that.:rolleyes: Didn't say it couldn't be Hillary--just said that, given the untrustworthiness of the Moonie Times in general and the fact that they got the main story about the school wrong, everything else in the story is automatically questioned. I know it's hard for you right-wingers to keep up with this sort of stuff, so I'm typing it extra slow.

Remember, this is the same Hillary that specifically ran for senate in a state she's not even from, in order to be in a prominent position as a New York senator. Does anyone seriously believe this wasn't a step toward her goal of presidential candidacy?
What does that matter? Of course she looked at the NY Senate seat as a potential stepping stone. It's called politics. It's also not the first time someone has tried it.

It's not just the right-wing. Most left-wingers I know despise her, too.
It's not the same kind of hate, though. I don't like her views on issues--the video game one is a perfect example--but I don't call her Hitlery or act as though her election would be the end of civilization as we know it. The right wing gets frothy at the mouth over her though.

The right wing has, for whatever reason, decided that Hillary Clinton is the antichrist and must be stopped no matter what it takes. I'm no fan of her, but I'm just about to the point where I'll campaign for her just to see their heads explode. And it looks like the rightwingers went for a twofer in this story--smear Obama as a Manchurian candidate and get Hillary for being a bitch.

What is it about her that gets their drawers so twisted in knots?

It's not just the right-wing. Most left-wingers I know despise her, too.

It's not the same kind of hate, though. I don't like her views on issues--the video game one is a perfect example--but I don't call her Hitlery or act as though her election would be the end of civilization as we know it. The right wing gets frothy at the mouth over her though.

I agree. She's to neocons what garlic is to vampires. :p

What is it about her that gets their drawers so twisted in knots?
Can't handle the idea of a strong-willed woman, maybe?

Can't handle the idea of a strong-willed woman, maybe?

They ate the skidmarks out of Maggie Thatcher's drawers--can't just be that.

The Insight article was cited several times Friday on Fox News and was also referenced by the New York Post, The Glenn Beck program on CNN Headline News and a number of political blogs.
I now wait with bated breath for the flood of apologies and retractions from the media outlets mentioned above for having blindly accepted unsubstaniated rumours without doing even a modicum of research first.

Didn't say it couldn't be Hillary--just said that, given the untrustworthiness of the Moonie Times in general and the fact that they got the main story about the school wrong, everything else in the story is automatically questioned. I know it's hard for you right-wingers to keep up with this sort of stuff, so I'm typing it extra slow.

I wonder how long it will take for you to realize that taking jabs at people doesn't make your point any stronger. In fact, it just makes it look weaker.


What does that matter? Of course she looked at the NY Senate seat as a potential stepping stone. It's called politics. It's also not the first time someone has tried it.

My point is that Hillary has beenworking for a long time on gettinginto the White House, and I wouldn't put something like this past her. Could it possibly be coming from the Right Wing? Maybe... but that's not logical. Right now, Hillary leads Obama in the polls by a decent margin. If it's coming from Republicans, then it would target her, not him.

For the record, I support Obama for Prez in '08. (Still want to blow me off as just another right-winger?)

I agree. She's to neocons what garlic is to vampires. :p

I was thinking more like syrup of ipecac than garlic.

They ate the skidmarks out of Maggie Thatcher's drawers--can't just be that.
true.
I need to addendum my premise to:

Can't handle the idea of a strong-willed woman who doesn't blindly follow the same idealogy as themselves, maybe?

Is that better?

I wonder how long it will take for you to realize that taking jabs at people doesn't make your point any stronger. In fact, it just makes it look weaker.
I'm absolutely quaking at the prospect of what taking shots at you will do to my reputation around here.


My point is that Hillary has been working for a long time on getting into the White House, and I wouldn't put something like this past her. Could it possibly be coming from the Right Wing? Maybe... but that's not logical. Right now, Hillary leads Obama in the polls by a decent margin. If it's coming from Republicans, then it would target her, not him.

For the record, I support Obama for Prez in '08. (Still want to blow me off as just another right-winger?)

Okay, Hillary leads Obama in a mythical national primary that doesn't exist--when you poll Iowa, John Edwards is currently in the lead, so what was that about Hillary leading again? I believe it's the right wing because they've been after her since before Bill was elected. It's been 16 years and they're still after her.

As for your right-wingness, I base that on your rhetoric, not on who you claim to support for the presidency.

how easily we jump on the anti clinton bandwagon based on a hazy alleged connection.

maybe its better to wait until real evidence is presented rather than to "swiftboat" hillary.

**edit**

actually its a 2 seater swiftboat since it hits both front running democratic candidates.

they sure do start early.

true.
I need to addendum my premise to:

Can't handle the idea of a strong-willed woman who doesn't blindly follow the same idealogy as themselves, maybe?

Is that better?
Potentially. Maybe it's "can't handle the idea of a strong-willed American woman who wants to control when and with whom she has sex and babies."

I don't mind Hilary...

But she is democrat... democrats want to ban guns... then I refuse to support her...

No other good reason...

Could it possibly be coming from the Right Wing? Maybe... but that's not logical.
Why isn't it logical?
It handily smears the two front-running Dems.
Implants the idea that Obama is a radical Muslim in the average Joe's mind and makes Hilary look like an opportunist bitch, willing to go to any lengths to smear her opponents.
Makes her look even more so if/when the radical Muslim school accusation is shown to be a lie, giving good ammo for her critics.

basically win-win for GOP.

I'm not saying it wasn't her. More just pointing out that there is a good logic in pointing the finger at the Right-Wing. Until the 'Hilary staffer' who leaked this to the press is identified, I'm keeping an open mind as to which side it's coming from.

Which is funny, because all the Muslims I know are much more friendly, caring, hospitable, etc than most of the Christians I know.

I knew a muslim. He was a bastard.


Although I'm not making stereotypes. I know a nice muslim guy too. He's my friend, and he's pretty cool.

Don't forget that bastard Lieberman. He's the worst.

I'd take Lieberman over most democrats any day of the week.

If this is true, it completely changes my mind about her.If this shocks you, I suggest you read "Primary Colors" by... no one knows.

If this shocks you, I suggest you read "Primary Colors" by... no one knows.

It was Joe Klein--came out not long after the book did.

I'd take Lieberman over most democrats any day of the week.

Take him. Please. Far away. :p

Don't forget that bastard Lieberman. He's the worst.

And Jack Thompson! Fuck that bastard.

Yeaahhhhh, Ummm I hate Bush as much as teh next guy, but that's a bit far. I think if Osama was yoru president you'd be pretty upset by it. Unless that was a typo and you meant Obama...

I'm not CNN...

Osama wouldn't have any of this crap we have, like the Patriot Act. He is also a much more effective speaker.

Although I'm not making stereotypes. I know a nice muslim guy too. He's my friend, and he's pretty cool.

Yeah, I'm friends with all the Muslim kids at my school, and I'm not Muslim (I'm actually Christian). I think that all the radical Muslims that are now on Jihad against the USA are NOT the majority, just like there are extreme radicalists in Christianity, Atheism, Judaism, and not just religions, but also different countries and races. The only reason that there seems to be so many "radical" Muslims, is that they are on a mission across the Middle East to convert, usually by force/propaganda, to the radical views, and thereby turn them into suicide bombers, insurgents, etc. etc. We don't want a Muslim for president (or we won't if this story turns out to be true) because we have this stereotype agains them that has been invoked through fear (9/11, Iraq). America fears radical Muslim terrorists for several reasons:

1. They hate the USA.
2. They are everywhere.
3. There are so many.
4. They don't fear death.

At least, these are my views. And so, getting back to the topic, Americans will have a tendency to fear or doubt, especially since if Obama is elected, we question how his past religion/life will affect his decisions in dealing with terrorism and the war in Iraq.

Americans will have a tendency to fear or doubt, especially since if Obama is elected, we question how his past religion/life will affect his decisions in dealing with terrorism and the war in Iraq.
Quite right. He might even look for actual solutions, rather than just blindly following the same, 'send more troops!', path that is currently happening.

....Wait a second. A man in our government, running for the presidency, that didn't attend an American private school and finish his education in the Ivy League? He... *gasp* attended a school in Indonesia affiliated with *gasp* Islam? What's happening to our all-American politics!???? WE MUST DISSENT!!!

Oh. He attended Harvard, you say? Well, I guess he might be all right. I'm going to keep an eye on him, though....


:rolleyes:

The liberals on this board are going to learn during the next year what Republicans already know about Hillary. She's a mean spirited bitch.

The long knives are already being drawn. God, I love the primary season :D

What is it about her that gets their drawers so twisted in knots?
Maybe that she's from the other party? Politicians always have tried to smear their opponents, and this is no exception.


they sure do start early.

I've been wondering about that. We're not even going to vote until 2008. Why in heaven's name are they starting now?

The long knives are already being drawn. God, I love the primary season :D
The primaries amuse me. It's like a big NS General popularity contest, except without moderators.

Wtf is wrong with being Muslim? I'd rather have Osama as president than Bush.

"Osama" ??? You do mean "Obama", correct ?

The liberals on this board are going to learn during the next year what Republicans already know about Hillary. She's a mean spirited bitch.

Without me saying what I know and feel about her-I will say she knows what she wants and will do anything to get it.

She has been very successful so far. Unfortunately.

"Osama" ??? You do mean "Obama", correct ?
Osama, Obama, if Teddy Kennedy can't discriminate, why should we?

Osama, Obama, if Teddy Kennedy can't discriminate, why should we?

Has Teddy made that mistake? I didnt hear that one yet.

Whats a consonant or two anyway? He's doing good for a guy on a Chivas drip.

Wow, go figure Hilliary is a lying manipulative ho. That's a shocker.

"Osama" ??? You do mean "Obama", correct ?

Osama bin Laden would make an awesome president! We need someone to go out and kill the infidels. Pity he's not a US citizen and thus can't run.

Osama bin Laden would make an awesome president! We need someone to go out and kill the infidels. Pity he's not a US citizen and thus can't run.

he's a scum-sucking opportunist. there's two traits of a politician.

The long knives are already being drawn. God, I love the primary season :D

I do as well. Ironiclly the Democrats are already turning on one another in this campaign season and its not even mid July. Can't wait to see what happens on the Republican side. This is going to be a great election year in politics.

Osama, Obama, if Teddy Kennedy can't discriminate, why should we?

1- Because all he did was a phonetics mistake, which he corrected on the spot.

2- Because being able to discern names through language is what makes us truly rational and human.

Actually, I can see why YOU wouldn't want to discriminate. Feel free, it's not like your vote will matter in '08.

Not sure why this would surprise anyone about Hillary. Pardon my French but the women is a power hungry bitch.

Hillary strikes me as an opportunist and clearly a backstabber. She is what gives politicians a bad name.

I'm absolutely quaking at the prospect of what taking shots at you will do to my reputation around here.
You have way to much anger. Take a nap.


Okay, Hillary leads Obama in a mythical national primary that doesn't exist--when you poll Iowa, John Edwards is currently in the lead, so what was that about Hillary leading again? I believe it's the right wing because they've been after her since before Bill was elected. It's been 16 years and they're still after her.
She does lead nationally. And so what about Iowa?


As for your right-wingness, I base that on your rhetoric, not on who you claim to support for the presidency.
I'm sure that will keep me awake at night.

It's so friggen obvious that this was a republican deal. After all, how can Hillary "Leak" information that Obama wrote in his book? This is a clever little job, with two layers of deceit, so that those who are smart enough to not believe the stupid shit about Obama being a fundamentalist Muslim will think it was Hillary spreading the shit around, when really it's Fox news. Seems funny, I remember when CNN faced a huge scandal over a mistake, and now Fox can get away with obvious lies about Obama.

Has Teddy made that mistake? I didnt hear that one yet.

Whats a consonant or two anyway? He's doing good for a guy on a Chivas drip.
From a National Press Club luncheon -- I knew there was a reason I listen to NPR.
Answering a question about Senator bin Laden.


KENNEDY: There you go.

Why don't we just ask Osama bin -- Osama Obama -- Obama what -- since he won by such a big amount. Seriously, Senator Obama is really unique and special.

"Senator Bin Laden"... Has the level of political debate dropped low enough to use a name resemblance as a smear campaign? What age are you?

You need to find a sense of humor.

From a National Press Club luncheon -- I knew there was a reason I listen to NPR.
Answering a question about Senator bin Laden.

"Senator Bin Laden"... Has the level of political debate dropped low enough to use a name resemblance as a smear campaign? What age are you?

"Senator Bin Laden"... Has the level of political debate dropped low enough to use a name resemblance as a smear campaign? What age are you?

Bit more creative then simply pointing out Obama's middle name though. Not that it makes it any better, mind you.

I do as well. Ironiclly the Democrats are already turning on one another in this campaign season and its not even mid July. Can't wait to see what happens on the Republican side. This is going to be a great election year in politics.

Expect this to get a lot of play:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4IrE6FMpai8
Giuliani is toast, for far more reasons than this, but this isn't going to help with the reilgious base.

Expect this to get a lot of play:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4IrE6FMpai8
Giuliani is toast, for far more reasons than this, but this isn't going to help with the reilgious base.

That's kinda too bad, really. I'm not a Giuliani supporter or anything, but it'd be nice if a sense of humor about ones self was an asset instead of a detraction. Not that the sketch was funny, but still.

That's kinda too bad, really. I'm not a Giuliani supporter or anything, but it'd be nice if a sense of humor about ones self was an asset instead of a detraction. Not that the sketch was funny, but still.

The real problem for him is that it echoes his position as a gay rights supporter, and he'll be looking for support from the people who push same-sex marriage bans. You think the attack ads for Democrats will be ugly? Heh. McCain's hired practically all of Dubya's attack poodles from 2000 and 2004.

Expect this to get a lot of play:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4IrE6FMpai8
Giuliani is toast, for far more reasons than this, but this isn't going to help with the reilgious base.

I wonder if a lobotomy will erase my memory of seeing this...

I really dont know why any of you think either Obama, or Hilary will actually stand a chance in a presidential election.

First and foremost, Obama has almost no experience at the political scene.
Hes been a senator for less than a year.

Hes also a black male.

If any of you actually think this country has evolved to the point socially, that either a black male or a woman of any color could be elected to the highest office in the land, you are deluding yourself.

The Civil Rights movement wasnt all that long ago, people, and racism and mysoginy still lurk everywhere.
The rich, racist, fat white men who truly hold the power in this country are not going to vote for a black man, or a white woman.

I would really like to think that im mistaken and that America as a nation has grown to truly believe that anyone other than a white male christian can run this country, rest assured.....this is not the case.

Bush has handed the next election to the Democrats, provided a strong candidate, who is not "soft on defense" can be presented.

I ASSURE you all, neither Hilary, nor Obama will recieve the Nomination for President.
The Dems want to win this time....not merely have a good race.

2016?
maybe.

2008?

NOT going to happen.

It isnt so much the 'neocons' (all 500 of them) that hate hilary, its the good old fashion normal conservatives.

Gun nuts, religious nuts, &c.


Hilary is very distasteful to me, especially after her muckraking with regards to Obama.

I hope she doesnt make it past the primaries, we need a capable president who is charismatic and eloquent and who can actually win the election.
Just keep in mind that the only people to say that Hillary was behind this are the same ones who got the madrassa story wrong. Why should you believe them? I'm not saying Hillary isn't capable of it, just that the source has already been proven to be bullshit once. No reason to believe it twice.

I agree. She's to neocons what garlic is to vampires. :p

It isnt so much the 'neocons' (all 500 of them) that hate hilary, its the good old fashion normal conservatives.

Gun nuts, religious nuts, &c.


Hilary is very distasteful to me, especially after her muckraking with regards to Obama.

I hope she doesnt make it past the primaries, we need a capable president who is charismatic and eloquent and who can actually win the election.

I really dont know why any of you think either Obama, or Hilary will actually stand a chance in a presidential election.

First and foremost, Obama has almost no experience at the political scene.
Hes been a senator for less than a year.

Hes also a black male.

If any of you actually think this country has evolved to the point socially, that either a black male or a woman of any color could be elected to the highest office in the land, you are deluding yourself.

The Civil Rights movement wasnt all that long ago, people, and racism and mysoginy still lurk everywhere.
The rich, racist, fat white men who truly hold the power in this country are not going to vote for a black man, or a white woman.

I would really like to think that im mistaken and that America as a nation has grown to truly believe that anyone other than a white male christian can run this country, rest assured.....this is not the case.

Bush has handed the next election to the Democrats, provided a strong candidate, who is not "soft on defense" can be presented.

I ASSURE you all, neither Hilary, nor Obama will recieve the Nomination for President.
The Dems want to win this time....not merely have a good race.

2016?
maybe.

2008?

NOT going to happen.

I agree that it's unlikely that either would receive the nomination for Prez, although I think it's a safe bet that one of them will become somebody's running-mate.

I do think that if, by some miracle, Obama were to get the nomination, he'd stand a decent chance, race notwithstanding. There is a lot of racism out there, yes... but (And I hate to admit it) most of that is in the conservative base, not liberal. The people who refuse to vote for him for being part black wouldn't have voted for him anyway because he's a Democrat.

I agree that it's unlikely that either would receive the nomination for Prez, although I think it's a safe bet that one of them will become somebody's running-mate.

I do think that if, by some miracle, Obama were to get the nomination, he'd stand a decent chance, race notwithstanding. There is a lot of racism out there, yes... but (And I hate to admit it) most of that is in the conservative base, not liberal. The people who refuse to vote for him for being part black wouldn't have voted for him anyway because he's a Democrat.

Think about it.

To get the required number of electoral votes, Obama would have to take every southern blue state in the union.

Most important to this, is to get the swing votes.
The last elections showed us this.

Do you think Bubba-Ray is going to vote for a black man?

How about "that bitch Hillary"?

Even Liberal as I am, I realize the Left vote alone cannot swing an election.
You HAVE to reach the middle, and even the left leaning Republican vote.

The ONLY way is to grab the middle-of-the-road swing votes, and being a woman, or a minority, isnt going to help you do that.

The real problem for him is that it echoes his position as a gay rights supporter, and he'll be looking for support from the people who push same-sex marriage bans. You think the attack ads for Democrats will be ugly? Heh. McCain's hired practically all of Dubya's attack poodles from 2000 and 2004.

After what they did to McCain that's about the worst thing I could have heard about him. Really, it makes accusations of Hilary being 'opportunistic' etc. seem ridiculous by comparison.

How do those meetings go?

"Hey, sorry about that whole 'Manchurian Candidate' 'Black baby' thing."
"It's all good as long as you can work that magic on my opponents."

Pretty sad.

This would be one more drop in the bucket with hilary as far as I'm concerned.

Sure, she's preferable to a republican, but not by much, and she is unelectable.

Alan Keyes is unelectable. Dennis Kucinich is unelectable. Hillary Clinton can win, and can win handily depending on who her opponent is. I'm not advocating for her, and she's not even in my top 3 Democrats I'd like to see nominated, but she can win if she's the nominee.

Just keep in mind that the only people to say that Hillary was behind this are the same ones who got the madrassa story wrong. Why should you believe them? I'm not saying Hillary isn't capable of it, just that the source has already been proven to be bullshit once. No reason to believe it twice.

This would be one more drop in the bucket with hilary as far as I'm concerned.

Sure, she's preferable to a republican, but not by much, and she is unelectable.

Think about it.

To get the required number of electoral votes, Obama would have to take every southern blue state in the union.

Most important to this, is to get the swing votes.
The last elections showed us this.

Do you think Bubba-Ray is going to vote for a black man?

How about "that bitch Hillary"?

Even Liberal as I am, I realize the Left vote alone cannot swing an election.
You HAVE to reach the middle, and even the left leaning Republican vote.

The ONLY way is to grab the middle-of-the-road swing votes, and being a woman, or a minority, isnt going to help you do that.

Touche'.

But honestly, considering the Republicans currently have NOBODY worth mentioning at the moment (Except maybe Guliani, but will he run?) I still like to think that a charismatic no-B.S. black man can have a chance.

But I try to be optimistic.

Think about it.

To get the required number of electoral votes, Obama would have to take every southern blue state in the union.

Most important to this, is to get the swing votes.
The last elections showed us this.

Do you think Bubba-Ray is going to vote for a black man?

How about "that bitch Hillary"?

Even Liberal as I am, I realize the Left vote alone cannot swing an election.
You HAVE to reach the middle, and even the left leaning Republican vote.

The ONLY way is to grab the middle-of-the-road swing votes, and being a woman, or a minority, isnt going to help you do that.
Actually, Obama or Hillary could win without taking a single southern state, and do so pretty easily. If Kerry had won Ohio, he'd have done it, and if Gore had won New Hampshire in 2000, he'd have done it too. The idea that you have to win in the south in order to win the Presidency is a myth, and one worth killing.

Actually, Obama or Hillary could win without taking a single southern state, and do so pretty easily. If Kerry had won Ohio, he'd have done it, and if Gore had won New Hampshire in 2000, he'd have done it too. The idea that you have to win in the south in order to win the Presidency is a myth, and one worth killing.

The population is shifting, though. We've got large Democratic concentrations in California and the west coast, plus New York and some of the east. But no place else in the rest of the country is a gimme for the Dems.

As long as the electoral system is in place, it is possible, but difficult, to win the Presidential election without a Southern state. Does Florida count? Because they'll both win that state.

I don't think either will survive the primaries. The liberal, activist Democrats won't put up with them. I'm leaning toward an increasingly liberal and anti-war Edwards to pick up the nomination.


And if Gore had just won his home state, the state that he represented for so many years, he would have been President. But he couldn't even carry Tennessee.

The population is shifting, though. We've got large Democratic concentrations in California and the west coast, plus New York and some of the east. But no place else in the rest of the country is a gimme for the Dems.

As long as the electoral system is in place, it is possible, but difficult, to win the Presidential election without a Southern state. Does Florida count? Because they'll both win that state.

I don't think either will survive the primaries. The liberal, activist Democrats won't put up with them. I'm leaning toward an increasingly liberal and anti-war Edwards to pick up the nomination.


And if Gore had just won his home state, the state that he represented for so many years, he would have been President. But he couldn't even carry Tennessee.
The tossups are increasingly in the mid and mountain west. The Dems solidified the northeast which is geographically small but packed with electoral power, and I don't know of a Republican even thinking about running who could be competitive not only in California, but in Oregon and Washington either. But Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Colorado--those are pure tossups, and the Democrats have made serious gains in Montana and Kansas, and as we move eastward, in Ohio. Republicans carried all or most of those states in 2004, and if the Democratic holds what Kerry carried and even sneaks one of those away, it's a done deal with not a single southern state carried.

The only reason I said New Hampshire for Gore was because I was pointing out that Gore could have won it without carrying a southern state. Tennessee is still considered southern, I believe.

The tossups are increasingly in the mid and mountain west. The Dems solidified the northeast which is geographically small but packed with electoral power, and I don't know of a Republican even thinking about running who could be competitive not only in California, but in Oregon and Washington either. But Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Colorado--those are pure tossups, and the Democrats have made serious gains in Montana and Kansas, and as we move eastward, in Ohio. Republicans carried all or most of those states in 2004, and if the Democratic holds what Kerry carried and even sneaks one of those away, it's a done deal with not a single southern state carried.

The only reason I said New Hampshire for Gore was because I was pointing out that Gore could have won it without carrying a southern state. Tennessee is still considered southern, I believe.

I don't want to extrapolate 2004 results to 2008 and think that any party can carry more than it's traditional strongholds. Not without seeing a campaign, at any rate. So to say it would be easy for a Democrat to win without a Southern state, does presuppose that they would also win all of Kerry's states. That's a big assumption. Especially without a contender on the other side.

I really like the irony of Gore's failure to carry the state that sent him to DC so many times.

If this is true, it completely changes my mind about her.

Talk about being backstabbing and duplicitous.

Expect this to get a lot of play:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4IrE6FMpai8
Giuliani is toast, for far more reasons than this, but this isn't going to help with the reilgious base.

Both races are going to be down and dirty and the Presidential Race will be even dirtier. As to Giuliani, it may not play with the religious people, but as a religious person, I'd vote for him because he is a good leader and well organized.

Just keep in mind that the only people to say that Hillary was behind this are the same ones who got the madrassa story wrong. Why should you believe them? I'm not saying Hillary isn't capable of it, just that the source has already been proven to be bullshit once. No reason to believe it twice.

Worth quoting again :)