NationStates Jolt Archive

Article One (http://theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21097128-2702,00.html)

Article Two (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=178743)

Some Background Info (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=82456)

_______________________________________

Well I can see both sides of this one.

On one hand, it's an affront, albeit a minor one, to freedom of speech and freedom of expression. People, in my opinion should have the right to express themselves through symbolic means if they so choose. Furthermore, with the event so close to our national day, Australia Day, some people are going to wish to express nationalistic feelings. The majority who do the right thing should not be punished for the wrongdoings of a few. It's creating controversy for the sake of controversy. With reference to the reasons provided (2nd article), those people would have probably acted that way with or without the flag.

On the other hand, if people are going to use it as a rallying call to racial vilification and violence, at an event performed at by international artists, and attended by a diversity of Australians, then it becomes something more dangerous, that should be discouraged. Take the swastika - it is in fact (as we learned NSGeneralites know), a symbol of peace in many, many cultures. However, it's meaning was perverted by a twisted ideology into a symbol of hatred and evil. Consequently, many nations now ban this previously innocent symbol as a tool to incite hatred and violence. In the wake of the Cronulla riots, the flag's meaning in Sydney became a potent symbol of hatred and racism, disguised as patriotism and national pride. The organisers are merely trying to ensure the safety of patrons (many of whom are minors), and that the focus of the festival remains on the music.

So what do you guys think about this? Are the organisers right? Should the flag be discouraged?

It's the national flag of the nation it takes place in.

So clearly not.

http://www.appliedlanguage.com/flags_of_the_world/medium_flag_of_australia.gif

Why on earth would you bring a flag there anyway? Last year they had a big float mocking politicians, but I didn't see any patriotic flag wavers.

Flags should never be discouraged, otherwise it ends up being a tool of the kind of groups you want to discourage. Example: apart from in NI (which is an exception), the BNP is the only party to use the Union Flag prominently at least. Which is a shame, really, since the flag of a country should be able to represent all its citizens, regardless of colour, race or religion.

Although I did read a pretty damning (http://www.guardian.co.uk/australia/story/0,,1994044,00.html)report on flag-waving Australians in the Guardian here, though.

Why on earth would you bring a flag there anyway? Last year they had a big float mocking politicians, but I didn't see any patriotic flag wavers.

I don't know. I never realised that the bogans who generally attend were so alive with nationalistic fervour. Apparently I missed the memo.

BTW, you're not a bogan. You raise the class of the festival just by buying a ticket.

I don't know. I never realised that the bogans who generally attend were so alive with nationalistic fervour. Apparently I missed the memo.

BTW, you're not a bogan. You raise the class of the festival just by buying a ticket.

Nice save, there. :p

Although I did read a pretty damning (http://www.guardian.co.uk/australia/story/0,,1994044,00.html)report on flag-waving Australians in the Guardian here, though.

That article pegs the average Aussie about right, sadly. Particularly in my state.

Nice save, there. :p

I know, I'm brilliant. :D

Although I did read a pretty damning (http://www.guardian.co.uk/australia/story/0,,1994044,00.html)report on flag-waving Australians in the Guardian here, though.

That article pegs the average Aussie about right, sadly. Particularly in my state.

Yeah, i've about given up on Australia now.

"Oh, well, I suppose Howard is harsh on the refugees - but he's good for the economy!"

Working longer hours for less pay, assertions that we are a nation of "whites" and "Christian values"? Not a future for me, thanks.

Pretty ironic when the majority of the lineup is from overseas. If I wanted to support Tool or any of the other acts, could I still bring a US flag? It's the most bizarre action if Australians can't bring the Australian flag into the venue, but are seemingly permitted to bring any other national flag in - something that wasn't mentioned in the reports. Perhaps they might ban "Aussie Aussie Aussie, Oi Oi Oi!" as well! Ban the Four n' Twenty pies and the VBs! Make all products pass a simple commutation test to see if they're vaguely nationalistic! Make no attempt to remind patrons which country's soil they currently stand in!

Retarded racists are going to be retarded racists no matter what. That's why they're retarded racists.

Yeah, i've about given up on Australia now.

"Oh, well, I suppose Howard is harsh on the refugees - but he's good for the economy!"

Working longer hours for less pay, assertions that we are a nation of "whites" and "Christian values"? Not a future for me, thanks.

That's my attitude, pretty much. Wanna elope to Antarctica?

That's my attitude, pretty much. Wanna elope to Antarctica?

Hmm. I'd prefer someplace a little warmer. :p

That's my attitude, pretty much. Wanna elope to Antarctica?

I've got a nice not-too-hot island in the Pacific for eloping too if you guys want to join me? I've declared it a micronation and sucessfully fought off Fijian military forces.

Hell, do they even have a military?

P.S. Chrisitian values are nil on this island, hookers, booze, and gambling for all!

Oh god, I'm lonely. :(

:D

Why on earth would you bring a flag there anyway? Last year they had a big float mocking politicians, but I didn't see any patriotic flag wavers.

Wrong actually. The decision to try to avoid flag-waving yobs was because the flags were used a rallying point for racists last year.

If I wanted to support Tool or any of the other acts, could I still bring a US flag? It's the most bizarre action if Australians can't bring the Australian flag into the venue, but are seemingly permitted to bring any other national flag in - something that wasn't mentioned in the reports.[/I]

Apparently no flags at all will be allowed.

Wrong actually. The decision to try to avoid flag-waving yobs was because the flags were used a rallying point for racists last year.

Oh, well, my bad - that was evidently exclusive to Sydney, then, because there was nothing like that at the Melbourne one (I should have clarified that...).

Pretty ironic when the majority of the lineup is from overseas. If I wanted to support Tool or any of the other acts, could I still bring a US flag?

Now i'm confused - why on earth would you bring a flag to 'support' a foreign act? It's not a sports game. They're a band. Wear a t-shirt if you really want to support them.

Oh, well, my bad - that was evidently exclusive to Sydney, then, because there was nothing like that at the Melbourne one (I should have clarified that...).

Yeah, apparently it was at Sydney. It was pretty soon after the Cronulla bullshit. I agree too, it is a concert for music, not for nationalism.

Although I did read a pretty damning (http://www.guardian.co.uk/australia/story/0,,1994044,00.html)report on flag-waving Australians in the Guardian here, though.
As usual with an Australian reporting on Australia, they steal New Zealand's ideas and pass them off as their own.
long before the rest of the western world, Australian working people had fought for and won a minimum wage, an eight-hour working day, pensions, child benefits and the vote for women.
NZ was the first country with an 8-hour working day (1840, 15 years before Oz).
NZ was the first country with the vote for women (1893, a year before South Australia and 9 years before the rest of Oz).
NZ was the first country with a minimum wage (1896, 3 years before Oz).
NZ had child benefits in 1926, 20 years before Oz.
NZ was the first country with pensions (1898, 10 years before Oz).

Is it too much to ask a noted journalist to do a little bit of bloody research?!

Given that the Australian government is encouraging people to fly the flag on Australia Day (see here (http://www.australiaday.gov.au/pages/page3.asp), particularly the video, which is very interesting in terms of Aussies' positive self-image), I wouldn't be too concerned.


Although I did read a pretty damning (http://www.guardian.co.uk/australia/story/0,,1994044,00.html)report on flag-waving Australians in the Guardian here, though.

Very interesting indeed. Thanks.


I've got a nice not-too-hot island in the Pacific for eloping too if you guys want to join me? I've declared it a micronation and sucessfully fought off Fijian military forces.

Hell, do they even have a military?


Erm... You haven't been following recent news, have you? Fiji's military (the RFMF) organised a coup just over a month ago.

Fiji's military has a fairly long history, going back to their pride at their participation in World War 2, and at Western officers declaring them to be amongst the best soldiers of all Allied countries.


NZ was the first country with the vote for women (1893, a year before South Australia and 9 years before the rest of Oz).


Alas, NZ gets forgotten all too often...

As a sidenote, NZ was the first country to give women the right to vote, but not the first place. That honour went to Pitcairn Island, in 1838. Where I don't think there were more than 100 women or so living.

Article One (http://theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21097128-2702,00.html)

Article Two (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=178743)

Some Background Info (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=82456)

_______________________________________

Well I can see both sides of this one.

On one hand, it's an affront, albeit a minor one, to freedom of speech and freedom of expression. People, in my opinion should have the right to express themselves through symbolic means if they so choose. Furthermore, with the event so close to our national day, Australia Day, some people are going to wish to express nationalistic feelings. The majority who do the right thing should not be punished for the wrongdoings of a few. It's creating controversy for the sake of controversy. With reference to the reasons provided (2nd article), those people would have probably acted that way with or without the flag.

On the other hand, if people are going to use it as a rallying call to racial vilification and violence, at an event performed at by international artists, and attended by a diversity of Australians, then it becomes something more dangerous, that should be discouraged. Take the swastika - it is in fact (as we learned NSGeneralites know), a symbol of peace in many, many cultures. However, it's meaning was perverted by a twisted ideology into a symbol of hatred and evil. Consequently, many nations now ban this previously innocent symbol as a tool to incite hatred and violence. In the wake of the Cronulla riots, the flag's meaning in Sydney became a potent symbol of hatred and racism, disguised as patriotism and national pride. The organisers are merely trying to ensure the safety of patrons (many of whom are minors), and that the focus of the festival remains on the music.

So what do you guys think about this? Are the organisers right? Should the flag be discouraged?

If Australian flag is associated with racism, it just shows that many people DO associate Australia with a certain race.

If I waived a UN flag, noone would think I'm a nudist. Because, it's quite irrelevant, right? So if Australian flag includes all Australian citizens, this type of banning would be unneccessary, since noone would think that there is a connection with race. And if a minority thinks that there is a connection but the majority doesnt care, again, the ban would be irrelevant.

So, as I said, there is an association here that most people make. And what would this ban achieve? It wouldnt destroy that association, only strengthen it as everyone would be more conscious of the flag. So what are they trying to achieve? Just save the day? PCness for PCness sake?

Although I did read a pretty damning (http://www.guardian.co.uk/australia/story/0,,1994044,00.html)report on flag-waving Australians in the Guardian here, though.
Really interesting article, thanks for linking it. Scary stuff. :/

Really interesting article, thanks for linking it. Scary stuff. :/

You didn't know most of what was in that article beforehand? I mustn't have been whiny and/or vocal enough lately. :P

Ah, having the government discourage something, you can't buy advertising better than that.

You didn't know most of what was in that article beforehand? I mustn't have been whiny and/or vocal enough lately. :P
Or I just never really believed you. ;p

Or I just never really believed you. ;p

Aww. Now that's not nice. :( Hmph.


:p

Although I did read a pretty damning (http://www.guardian.co.uk/australia/story/0,,1994044,00.html)report on flag-waving Australians in the Guardian here, though.
I don't like John Pilger, I think he's the OceanDrive of the real world, but the article is just about right.

Shame on Channel 9 for not even telling me that Ian Chappell had left the commentator box in protest. I had no idea! He's moving up several spots in my rankings now.

And what would this ban achieve?

Preventing a bunch of racist yobs ruining a great day.

Ah, having the government discourage something, you can't buy advertising better than that.

Actually they encouraged people to take flags.

Shame on Channel 9 for not even telling me that Ian Chappell had left the commentator box in protest. I had no idea! He's moving up several spots in my rankings now.

Huh?

Huh?
It's in the article. Howard came into the commentator box and commentated on the cricket at one of the matches.

Chappell left the booth in protest, but I don't think they mentioned that on TV.

It's a sad day when 'political correctness' and 'cultural/ethnic sensitivity' are so distorted and misinterpreted that nationalistic flag-waving becomes taboo and frown-upon, I didn't think I would ever agree with the PM but he is right on this issue, it's an offense to all Australians, and I would support any bill to illegalise any kind of flag bans.

Of course their will inevitably be people who will try to ruin the event for others with anti-social activities, but this concerns the people themselves and has nothing to do with our National Flag. It's a shame that because of Cronulla and other events this 'correctness' has emerged, which is nothing but a limit of freedom of expression and attempted limit of the freedom of association. And moreover, it's anti-national and should be quashed.

Funny that a lot of the same people who are so outraged at this erosion of people's rights would be the exact same people to ban people's right to burn it.

British police call Union Jack tattoo "Racist".

http://forums.filefront.com/showthread.php?t=277076

it ain't just in australia that flags are being associated with racism

British police call Union Jack tattoo "Racist".

http://forums.filefront.com/showthread.php?t=277076

it ain't just in australia that flags are being associated with racism

That is just silly. But when a gang of racist actively use flag to rally and harass people I think the organisers are right to discourage it.

Funny that a lot of the same people who are so outraged at this erosion of people's rights would be the exact same people to ban people's right to burn it.

True.

True.

I support the right to burn the Australian or any other flag to make a political statement, I also support the right to show your nationalist pride and wave it. But what I don't support is having either of these rights taken away to be 'politically/ethnically correct'. This is after all our country, and belongs to everyone here.

Best way to show how something is not to be used it to show how it is to be used.

*nod*

And moreover, it's anti-national and should be quashed.
This country is going downhill. Australians (from what I hear) used to be able to look at nationalism a bit tongue-in-cheek, but these days...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4u8awXZKmI

This country is going downhill. Australians (from what I hear) used to be able to look at nationalism a bit tongue-in-cheek, but these days...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4u8awXZKmI

Yes, we used to look at ultra-nationalists & be embarrassed by their seriousness & fervour. Now it seems to be the norm.

As I said, watch the video (http://www.australiaday.gov.au/pages/page3.asp). I don't think there's any great risk of the government telling people not to fly the Aussie flag in general - quite the contrary. They're being encouraged, by this government website, to fly it on Australia Day.

That's silly too. Everyone knows that all you gotta do is eat your lamb (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sam+kekovich). :p

You know it makes sense. :p

They're being encouraged, by this government website, to fly it on Australia Day.
That's silly too. Everyone knows that all you gotta do is eat your lamb (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sam+kekovich). :p

I support the right to burn the Australian or any other flag to make a political statement, I also support the right to show your nationalist pride and wave it. But what I don't support is having either of these rights taken away to be 'politically/ethnically correct'. This is after all our country, and belongs to everyone here.

I completely agree... it's just a piece of material with a pattern on it. Let people do what they want with it. Apart from strangling people and other such things.

Let people do what they want with it. Apart from strangling people and other such things.

Yeah, but that is the issue here. They're not going to use it literally to strangle people, but last year for instance it was used directly as a rallying point to encourage nationalism-based harrasment.

Article One (http://theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21097128-2702,00.html)

Article Two (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=178743)

Some Background Info (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=82456)

_______________________________________

Well I can see both sides of this one.

On one hand, it's an affront, albeit a minor one, to freedom of speech and freedom of expression. People, in my opinion should have the right to express themselves through symbolic means if they so choose. Furthermore, with the event so close to our national day, Australia Day, some people are going to wish to express nationalistic feelings. The majority who do the right thing should not be punished for the wrongdoings of a few. It's creating controversy for the sake of controversy. With reference to the reasons provided (2nd article), those people would have probably acted that way with or without the flag.

On the other hand, if people are going to use it as a rallying call to racial vilification and violence, at an event performed at by international artists, and attended by a diversity of Australians, then it becomes something more dangerous, that should be discouraged. Take the swastika - it is in fact (as we learned NSGeneralites know), a symbol of peace in many, many cultures. However, it's meaning was perverted by a twisted ideology into a symbol of hatred and evil. Consequently, many nations now ban this previously innocent symbol as a tool to incite hatred and violence. In the wake of the Cronulla riots, the flag's meaning in Sydney became a potent symbol of hatred and racism, disguised as patriotism and national pride. The organisers are merely trying to ensure the safety of patrons (many of whom are minors), and that the focus of the festival remains on the music.

So what do you guys think about this? Are the organisers right? Should the flag be discouraged?

Fricken hell...