NationStates Jolt Archive

Should they offer work programs, education and training, healthcare, drug rehabilitation or sex offender treatment?

Should prison cells have beds for inmates to sleep in or should they just have straw or a bench or a plank of wood for inmates to lie on?

Should prison cells have toilets or should thay only have a bucket?

Should prison cells have shower facilities, TVs, or video game consoles?

How should badly behaved inmates be punished?

What's your opinion in general?

They should have BDSM gear, and take walk-ins.

They should have BDSM gear, and take walk-ins.

I like the way you think.

I believe that prisons should include pretty much everything you mentioned, especially the education and drug rehabilitation facilities. After all, what's the point in imprisoning criminals if they are incapable of finding a job or still hooked on drugs when they leave and just re-offend?

They should definitely have basic facilties for hygiene like showers and toilets and healthcare goes without saying - you can't have prisoners falling ill and dying.

TV and games consoles are a more thorny issue, but they do promote social interaction between inmates which I consider an important part of rehabilitation.

They should be forced labor camps where you get paid credits in the prison bank to buy food, a more comfortable cell, entertainment. And the credits can not be dispensed as a material currency so there is no black market to worry about. :)

I'd support a two-tiered prison system, one for the reformables, and one for the irreformables.

The reformables would have access to educational resources, better living conditions, a structured environment and several other similar things. Very liberal sort of view. Offer all sorts of incentives for good behavior, TV time, video games, etc. These are people who have a future if they work at it, just right now, because of circumstances, they made a mistake.

Irreformables would be stuck in a 10'x10' concrete room with a cot, sink and a toilet. They get gruel, crackers and a vitamin pill through the door everyday for nutrition, as well as a fresh pair of clothes. Their clothes would be entirely made of cloth, no metal permitted.

Good behavior would permit them to read a different book at their leisure, although the book would be chosen by pschologists.

New bedsheets would arrive once a week, to be put onto the bed by prison staff while the inmates are lined up for inspection by the warden.

Piercings would be strictly forbidden.

If anything in the cell should break, the prisoner would be moved to a temporary cell until maintenance staff could repair it.

It would be clean and humane, but insanely boring. It would also be a great alternative to the death penalty.

To define irreformables, I'd leave that up to psychologists and the legislature. Three-strikes laws would be a good way to define that, as well as the current definition of capital crimes.

Those who are in prison should go with out toilets, television, radio, visits from the outside, letters, any type of enterainment, smoking, windows, anything but the most basic medical care, beds, and air conditioning/heat.

They should get three meals of soup beans(or rice just something cheap and filling) and water to drink. Those who behave well should be rewarded by giving them a meal with meat or soda. If they get sick they should see the prison doctor and only at his recomendation should they be able to leave the prison for care and once they leave they must pay for care themself. Also if they behave well for a period of 3 months allow a visit from the outside.

Irish prisons are like five-star hotels and therefore are not a deterrent to criminals. Inmates usually get a single cell and are hardly ever more than two to a cell. They get TVs, video games and girly magazines. They get education and a choice of work, meaning that work is not mandatory.

If I was in charge of prisons there would not be TVs or game consoles in cells and work would be mandatory. Prison should be a punishment not a holiday.

They should get three meals of soup beans(or rice just something cheap and filling) and water to drink. Those who behave well should be rewarded by giving them a meal with meat or soda. If they get sick they should see the prison doctor and only at his recomendation should they be able to leave the prison for care and once they leave they must pay for care themself. Also if they behave well for a period of 3 months allow a visit from the outside.

Ironically, your decision to feed them only soup beans would lead to greater need for a prison doctor.

Should they offer work programs, education and training, healthcare, drug rehabilitation or sex offender treatment?

Yeah.

Should prison cells have beds for inmates to sleep in or should they just have straw or a bench or a plank of wood for inmates to lie on?

A bed. They deserve something at least.

Should prison cells have toilets or should thay only have a bucket?

Toilets. They deserve that.

Should prison cells have shower facilities, TVs, or video game consoles?

Showers, but no TVs or consoles.

How should badly behaved inmates be punished?

Solitary confinement.

What's your opinion in general?

As long as they get spam and mashed potatoes for lunch, and are treated worse than in society, it'll work OK.

Irish prisons are like five-star hotels and therefore are not a deterrent to criminals.

Why don't you commit some crimes then? Or do you already live in a five star hotel? I don't, I live in a draughty flat. I think I'll go over to Ireland, kill someone and spend twenty years in a 'five star hotel'. Are we talking Savoy or Gleneagles here? It's just that Gleneagles is a bit too remote - I prefer an urban atmosphere. I mean, I'd hate to get sentenced only to find out that all it's got is a nice golf course and no nightlife! So who's the head chef, and what time do the swimming pool facilties open?

they should be, like, abolished

They should be forced labor camps where you get paid credits in the prison bank to buy food, a more comfortable cell, entertainment. And the credits can not be dispensed as a material currency so there is no black market to worry about. :)

plus real money that is made with their labour should go to victims or families. That especially for murderers and rapists.

Large, walled-in buildings with electricity, plumbing, air ventilation, insulation, doors, windows... am I getting close?

they should be, like, abolished

Then what would you do with criminals? How would you deter them?

Prisons area such eyesoars. Plain, flat, boring. Government architecture of the worst sort.

Instead, they need to be constructed in a gothic style. Like cathedrals, big and gloomy and inspiring.

Like castles, with a moat and stuff. Alligators? Nah, too cheesy. Just toxic waste. Make them deep so people trying to dig their way out would just drown. We only need guards on the outside, to make sure no one escapes.

Then on the inside they should be dark. Electric lighting, but it should flicker constantly and provide very poor illumination. That way it'll leave more to the imaginations of the inmates, who will be given doses of hallucinogens with their meals. I guess the only problem with this is it will make filming for TV difficult. Oh well, have to compromise when it comes to justice.

THey shouldnt exist. THe most severe criminals cannot be reformed and should therefore be executed, while putting the rest in prison does no good. Crime generally stems from inequality. Taking away part of someones life, and preventing them from getting a job afterwards, is hardly going to solve the problem.

Reformables can get whatever they need to get fixed.

Irreformalbes should be sent to the "The Most Dangerous Greatest Game Arena" where they will fight to the death for our amusement. We could even let people pay to hunt them down with a high powered rifle.

Any winners would go on to the winners division, and the winners of those would go to the super winners division and so on and so forth, telling them there is freedom as the final prize, but in reality they will die of old age first.

In between games, they will recieve the finest medical treatment (as they will need it), gruel, a nice 12 x 12 concrete room, and get to play the most violent video games in existence.

Imagine, 16 convicts, 16 weapons, one arena.

Should they offer work programs, education and training, healthcare, drug rehabilitation or sex offender treatment?
No, no, only basic, unnecessary, unnecessary

Should prison cells have beds for inmates to sleep in or should they just have straw or a bench or a plank of wood for inmates to lie on?

Concrete slab/dirt

Should prison cells have toilets or should they only have a bucket?

A bucket with a toilet rim. Maybe a hole with said rim.

Should prison cells have shower facilities, TVs, or video game consoles?

Yes (crude), no, NO!

How should badly behaved inmates be punished?

Make these guys make houses for the homeless in the desert or other manual labors. Make the sentencing as long as is needed to cover 2.5 times their crime's monetary cost (paid at min. wage). Then, they go free.

What's your opinion in general?

Jails are too soft, death too barbaric.

Remind me not to live in the same continuum as you.

Why? Some people actually live like that OUTSIDE of jail.

EDIT: TIME WARPAGE!

*snips*

Remind me not to live in the same continuum as you.

Should they offer work programs, education and training, healthcare, drug rehabilitation or sex offender treatment?

Should prison cells have beds for inmates to sleep in or should they just have straw or a bench or a plank of wood for inmates to lie on?

Should prison cells have toilets or should thay only have a bucket?

Should prison cells have shower facilities, TVs, or video game consoles?

How should badly behaved inmates be punished?

What's your opinion in general?

good question.

i think it should be separated into 2 different systems.
1 for violent crimminals,and 1 for nonviolent(petty) crimminals.

obviously i think the non violent petty types should be offered more niceites,and education,jobs training,etc.
all this keeping an eye to rehabilitation,with a reward based system of earning perks for completing coarses and good behaviour.

the violent offenders should also be tiered so to speak,but isolated from the non violent types.
they should not be treated as animals without basic services(toilet,food,etc)but they shouldnt be watching tv and running around like big man on campus in the cell block.
they should be allowed in classes to better themselves,and rewarded for good behavior also,but not to the extent the non violent types are allowed.

they are after all being punished for a violent crime,rehab is secondary in their case.(and they need to seek it out)

i know a thing or 2 about the prison system,at least in america.

i was mis identified as a wanted person from a serious felony charge.
after being processed for a motor veh. stop in which i had failed to pay a 140.00 ticket.
this "finger error' found me tossed into camden county jail(n.j.) for 2 weeks.
i did not have my wallet with me so i couldn't just pay the 140.00,and i couldn't reach my wife or brother...so off to county for me,where the error occurred.
my wife,dad,and brother all came to the jail to get me,and were turned away with the remark"this guy aint got no bail..wait till he see's the judge up north"
my ex ,god bless her,new i was not a crimminal...but they kept telling her..you have to wait till we transfer him to rahway..then when he see's the judge you can post bail.

very long story short,and trust me i have a point.

my ex noticed my name was misspelled on the green sheet they give you..she called my dad,who called our family lawyer.the next day i was released with not as much as an apology.(after a finger print check)
moments before i was transferred to the state prison.

to the point..lol...the guy whose charges i was being held for,was wanted for money crimes(laundering,theft by deception,etc.)a jerk to be sure...but violent...
anyway...i was tossed into a cell for 2,with 4 guys in it allready.and just for non americans..camden county jail is nasty...out of 120 people in my cell block,i was 1 of 2 white guys.
it was what they call an intermediate cell block,or some such thing.
i wasn't in with murderers or rapist's,they have their own little place in hell(cell block)but i was in with a boatload of gangbangers,drug dealers,innocent guys,dui guys and drug possesion guys.
let me tell you,it was a freaking jungle in there,i was saved cause when i was asleep they stole(of coarse)my greens..the sheet they give you,and they were impressed with my so called balls and ability to steal money.so the guys in my cell looked out for me,i suppose in return for imparting my knowledge of money laundering and thieving skills.
damn did i play that role..lol
but the abuse and horror i saw in there,on the weaker was disgusting.
it just is not right to toss some dui guy,or pothead in with gangbangers...it was brutal in the extreme,and for the grace of god,and my ex,did i get out alive.
i saw things in there that to this day give me nightmares.

so i am so behind seperating people by the crime they commit.
honestly,i would prefer to be in solitary to that nightmare.

and that was 15 years ago.

last year i was arrested for aggravated assault on a police officer,attempted murder of a police officer,felony eluding,resisting arrest with violence and about 5 other more minor charges.
obviously i was not guilty,because here i sit(14,000.00) dollars poorer.instead of doing 20 years in prison(scary to know if i did not have a good lawyer i would be doing 20 years,whole nother subject)

i was this time tossed in with the bad asses,500.000.00 bail,no 10 %.
again i lucked out,as when i came into the cell block,and my face was all bashed up from the police,they all started clapping...saying, you the dude that fucked up the cops yo!!!
whew,i was terrified to be truthfull.
fact was,i was innocent,and tossed in with some real nasty fellows,so things have not changed much in the last 15 years apparently.
i played along without implicitly denying or confirming my guilt...to survive.
they (convicts) bought food to me as i had my ribs broken along with my cheekbone by the cops,and i guess that was their way of showing respect...and i was not about to argue.

what scares me when i think about this subject is the fact that there is innocent,or not quite as guilty people in there with those nice to me animals.
and they were only nice to me because they thought i was an insane violent sob like them.

either segregate them by crimes...or quit debtor prisons and stop the fucking joke war on drugs,then they could afford to house people humanely,cause the prisons will empty.

They should have BDSM gear, and take walk-ins.

:)

I'd support a two-tiered prison system, one for the reformables, and one for the irreformables.

The reformables would have access to educational resources, better living conditions, a structured environment and several other similar things. Very liberal sort of view. Offer all sorts of incentives for good behavior, TV time, video games, etc. These are people who have a future if they work at it, just right now, because of circumstances, they made a mistake.

Irreformables would be stuck in a 10'x10' concrete room with a cot, sink and a toilet. They get gruel, crackers and a vitamin pill through the door everyday for nutrition, as well as a fresh pair of clothes. Their clothes would be entirely made of cloth, no metal permitted.

Good behavior would permit them to read a different book at their leisure, although the book would be chosen by pschologists.

New bedsheets would arrive once a week, to be put onto the bed by prison staff while the inmates are lined up for inspection by the warden.

Piercings would be strictly forbidden.

If anything in the cell should break, the prisoner would be moved to a temporary cell until maintenance staff could repair it.

It would be clean and humane, but insanely boring. It would also be a great alternative to the death penalty.

To define irreformables, I'd leave that up to psychologists and the legislature. Three-strikes laws would be a good way to define that, as well as the current definition of capital crimes.

...yes...YES! This system is PEFECT! I absolutely agree with it.

Why? Some people actually live like that OUTSIDE of jail.
Doesn't make it right. Not even close.

Doesn't make it right. Not even close.

no it does not make it right,nor does treating people like animals,even if they are.

Doesn't make it right. Not even close.

Are you a socialist, by chance?

no it does not make it right,nor does treating people like animals,even if they are.

Manual labor is NOT animalistic. People can make a good living off it.

And a bad living is not animalistic, either.

I'd support a two-tiered prison system, one for the reformables, and one for the irreformables.

The reformables would have access to educational resources, better living conditions, a structured environment and several other similar things. Very liberal sort of view. Offer all sorts of incentives for good behavior, TV time, video games, etc. These are people who have a future if they work at it, just right now, because of circumstances, they made a mistake.

Irreformables would be stuck in a 10'x10' concrete room with a cot, sink and a toilet. They get gruel, crackers and a vitamin pill through the door everyday for nutrition, as well as a fresh pair of clothes. Their clothes would be entirely made of cloth, no metal permitted.

Good behavior would permit them to read a different book at their leisure, although the book would be chosen by pschologists.

New bedsheets would arrive once a week, to be put onto the bed by prison staff while the inmates are lined up for inspection by the warden.

Piercings would be strictly forbidden.

If anything in the cell should break, the prisoner would be moved to a temporary cell until maintenance staff could repair it.

It would be clean and humane, but insanely boring. It would also be a great alternative to the death penalty.

To define irreformables, I'd leave that up to psychologists and the legislature. Three-strikes laws would be a good way to define that, as well as the current definition of capital crimes.

Sounds good to me. :)

good question. snip

Dude ... shit. :eek:

Manual labor is NOT animalistic. People can make a good living off it.

And when they're not getting paid for it, and not making a good living, that is animalistic, seeing as it puts them at the same level as beasts of burden. And no, indentured workers do not count as being 'paid'.

In my ficticious nation, they get 10 hours of heavy manual labor (1 hour break), a 6x6 cell and two meals a day.

They can give blood every couple of weeks in exchange for time off work. They also get books. Depending on the prison, they may or may not be allowed outside contact.

First-timers generally get education and work opportunities after their stay, repeat visitors get a pine box after they can no longer work.


Given this, I should mention I have very liberal sentencing laws.

Are you a socialist, by chance?

And are you an authoritarian, pray tell?

plus real money that is made with their labour should go to victims or families. That especially for murderers and rapists.

What about victimless crimes?

What about victimless crimes?

Personally, I can't honestly think of a 'victimles' crime. Drug use, I think, shouldn't be considered crime (selling should).

Should they offer work programs, education and training, healthcare, drug rehabilitation or sex offender treatment? With the exception that sex-offenders ought to be excecuted, yes.

Should prison cells have beds for inmates to sleep in or should they just have straw or a bench or a plank of wood for inmates to lie on? Yes. The should be a bed, but it should be just on the pleasent side of comfortable, not anything luxurious.

Should prison cells have toilets or should thay only have a bucket?Toilets

Should prison cells have shower facilities, TVs, or video game consoles?Showers? Yes. TVs? In select recreation areas. Video-games? No, absolutely not.

How should badly behaved inmates be punished?Merciless beatings. Not really. Corporal punishment is fine (so long as it's not abuse) and more "modern" punishments are good, too.

What's your opinion in general?A lot of things that are put in prisons are too luxurious. And a lot of persons in prison ought not to be there: muderers (not manslaughterers) and sex offenders ought to be excecuted.

Irish prisons are like five-star hotels and therefore are not a deterrent to criminals.
Have you ever served time at one of them?

Yeah.

A bed. They deserve something at least.

Toilets. They deserve that.

Showers, but no TVs or consoles.

Solitary confinement.

As long as they get spam and mashed potatoes for lunch, and are treated worse than in society, it'll work OK.
I feel like agreeing with this - only one thing, and that is that TV and consoles might be given as a good behavior reward to some prisoners, or to some perpretrators of some types of crime. For exaple where the prisoner is serving, say, less than six moths?


i think it should be separated into 2 different systems.
1 for violent crimminals,and 1 for nonviolent(petty) crimminals.

obviously i think the non violent petty types should be offered more niceites,and education,jobs training,etc.
all this keeping an eye to rehabilitation,with a reward based system of earning perks for completing coarses and good behaviour.

the violent offenders should also be tiered so to speak,but isolated from the non violent types.
they should not be treated as animals without basic services(toilet,food,etc)but they shouldnt be watching tv and running around like big man on campus in the cell block.
they should be allowed in classes to better themselves,and rewarded for good behavior also,but not to the extent the non violent types are allowed.
I agree that violent and non-violent criminals ought to be seperated, but I don't agree that violent criminals should recieve a poorer treatment in general.

My reason is that the non-violent crime often can have worse consequences for more people than violent crime has. To illustrate my point: As horrible as a rape is, it usually only have one direct victim (and sometimes some "indirect" victims, like family etc). Financial crime - white-collar crime - may effect many people, maybe hundreds or even thousands (see Enron) of people, and actually destabilize the society itself. Why should the perpetrators of such crimes be treated better than a rapist?

Consentual incestual sex between adults, where offspring cannot result from the sexual activity? Just one example...
A 17 yr old having consentual sex with his 15 years-and-11 months old g/f is another.

Personally, I can't honestly think of a 'victimles' crime. Drug use, I think, shouldn't be considered crime (selling should).

Consentual incestual sex between adults, where offspring cannot result from the sexual activity? Just one example...

plus real money that is made with their labour should go to victims or families. That especially for murderers and rapists.

Wtf do they need it for? I think it should go to the community for parks, theatres, and such. :)

A 17 yr old having consentual sex with his 15 years-and-11 months old g/f is another.

What's your opinion in general?A lot of things that are put in prisons are too luxurious. And a lot of persons in prison ought not to be there: muderers (not manslaughterers) and sex offenders ought to be excecuted.
See Demented Hamsters post. You'd like for that guy to be executed? Hmm...

prisons should be completely and utterly focused towards rehabilitation. When I mean rehabilitation I don't just mean drug rehab and workshops and classes and so on. They can be a part of it, sure, but only to iron out the creases left by the real rehabilitation. What I'm basically talking about is chemical and/or surgical behaviour modification. Prisoners would be regularly injected with various psychiatric drugs to enforce obedience, complacency and a placid nature. For a more permenant solution, various types of brain surgery such as lobotomies would be utilised; as time goes on and enough money is given to research in the area (the research would be carried out on prisoners of course) I believe the techniques of behaviour modifying brain surgery could become able to target specific undesirable behaviours without undue damage to useful parts of the brain; possibly through the use of electronic implants and the like. For rapists, of course, there is another far more obvious surgical solution - castration. And if, after all this, the criminal is still unable to be rehabilitated? Then they should simply be executed. There is obviously no point letting an individual be a drain on a society's resources if they have no hope of ever being a part of it again.

EDIT: infact, come to think of it, the terms "prison" and "prisoner" probably shouldn't even be used in my ideal scenario. More accurate terms would be something like "Social Hospitals" or "Citizen Re-education Centers"; with the prisoners being more like patients or clients.

A 17 yr old having consentual sex with his 15 years-and-11 months old g/f is another.

I wonder if that ever was taken to court...

prisons should be completely and utterly focused towards rehabilitation. When I mean rehabilitation I don't just mean drug rehab and workshops and classes and so on. They can be a part of it, sure, but only to iron out the creases left by the real rehabilitation. What I'm basically talking about is chemical and/or surgical behaviour modification. Prisoners would be regularly injected with various psychiatric drugs to enforce obedience, complacency and a placid nature. For a more permenant solution, various types of brain surgery such as lobotomies would be utilised; as time goes on and enough money is given to research in the area (the research would be carried out on prisoners of course) I believe the techniques of behaviour modifying brain surgery could become able to target specific undesirable behaviours without undue damage to useful parts of the brain; possibly through the use of electronic implants and the like. For rapists, of course, there is another far more obvious surgical solution - castration. And if, after all this, they are still unable to be rehabilitated successfully? Simply execute them. There is obviously no point letting an individual be a drain on a society's resources if they have no hope of ever being a part of it again.


Eleven and five-eighths.

Consentual incestual sex between adults, where offspring cannot result from the sexual activity? Just one example...

Its disgusting, yes, but why is it considered a crime?

Its disgusting, yes, but why is it considered a crime?

Anachronism hailing from the days before efficient birth-control, and when attempts to legislate morality was done to a much larger degree than today - especially when it came to something that was frowned upon in the Bible.

Its disgusting, yes, but why is it considered a crime?

Prurient people. That's why.

Eleven and five-eighths.

I don't get it :confused: 11.62500?

Then what would you do with criminals? How would you deter them?

various other strategies of reconciliation and restitution, depending. the thing to realize is that the prison, as an idea, has been a monumental failure as far as crime deterrence or any of that goes. what they have been good for is implementing an overarching system of hierarchical control on society as a whole, and getting us all used to these layers of surveillance and power relations.

and, of course, one thing we know for sure is that prisons as an idea are the perfect sort of institution to cause horrific abuse against people held within them. the very nature of the concept ensures that those held there are viewed as less than human - and treated as such - no matter their crime (or utter lack thereof). see the stanford prison experiment, abu ghraib, and the entire usian prison system for shocking and disturbing examples

I don't get it :confused:

Nine and a half, wide fitting... Balleys of Bond Street. What? No, sort of brogue.

Nine and a half, wide fitting... Balleys of Bond Street. What? No, sort of brogue.

I fail to see how a monty python sketch has anything to do with my reply to the question "What Should Prisons Be Like?".

Personally, I can't honestly think of a 'victimles' crime.

drunk driving
firing a gun randomly into the air
attempted anything

Should they offer work programs, education and training, healthcare, drug rehabilitation or sex offender treatment?
Yes. The fact of the matter is, most prisoners will eventually be released into society. If they don't have any marketable skills, they just end up back there again, wasting taxpayers money and causing more damage while they are out. Now, I don't necessarily think everyone can be rehabilitated. But if we can rehabilitate some, it will be so much better for society.

Should prison cells have beds for inmates to sleep in or should they just have straw or a bench or a plank of wood for inmates to lie on?

The prison I saw had a blue mat for inmates to sleep on. No terribly comfortable, no down or foam mattresses, but not a plank of wood either. Personally, I think they should have to sleep on our dorm beds. That shit is uncomfortable. Altho my bed at school is way wider than the mats I saw, and my bed is only a single.

Should prison cells have toilets or should thay only have a bucket? Now thats just disgusting. Of course they should have proper hygiene.

Should prison cells have shower facilities, TVs, or video game consoles? Shower facilities, yes. All the rest? No.

How should badly behaved inmates be punished?i dont know. I think perhaps some problems should be resolved on an individual basis, though, rather than having blanket solutions

What's your opinion in general? that in order to make economic sense, prisons should rehabilitate.

I wonder if that ever was taken to court...

Genarlow Wilson (http://www.wilsonappeal.com/index.php) got 10 years for consentual sex between him at 17 and his girlfriend of 15.

drunk driving
firing a gun randomly into the air
attempted anything

drunk drivers are a danger to themselves and other drivers and possibly pedestrians. There might not always be victims, but there are plenty of potential victims.

Shower facilities, yes. All the rest? No.

you prefer bored, angry, and violent inmates that are a danger to each other and to the prison staff? 'cause that's what you get without the tv and the radio and such.

drunk drivers are a danger to themselves and other drivers and possibly pedestrians. There might not always be victims, but there are plenty of potential victims.

drivers are a danger to themselves, other drivers, and pedestrians.

potential victimhood does not equate to the existence of a victim. crimes based on either potential victims or failed attempts to create victims lack actual victims and are therefore victimless crimes.

And are you an authoritarian, pray tell?

iAy! Tu no comprendes...

See, I was saying that people live like that normally. Since you are against that for prisoners, supporting that for anyone else is hypocritical.

And no, I'm not an authoritarian. I just believe in expedited punishment that pays society (and the victims) back. The breakdown is as follows:

100%- for the victims
100%- for living costs, etc.
50%- taxes (Taxes for the rest of people are much higher in my system)

Personally, I can't honestly think of a 'victimles' crime. Drug use, I think, shouldn't be considered crime (selling should).

Prostitution, responsible durg use, gambling, smuggling, illegal immigration, and many many others

Should they offer work programs, education and training, healthcare, drug rehabilitation or sex offender treatment? Yes

Should prison cells have beds for inmates to sleep in or should they just have straw or a bench or a plank of wood for inmates to lie on? maybe not planks of wood, but at least a foam mattress.

Should prison cells have toilets or should thay only have a bucket? Toilets, not private ones, but I'll settle for what some have right now. a commode in the cell.

Should prison cells have shower facilities, TVs, or video game consoles? shower facilities... yes. T.V. and Video Games? no.

How should badly behaved inmates be punished?since I don't really know how they're punished now... can't offer any suggestions.

What's your opinion in general? Prision should be uncomfortable, an ordeal, and a place you don't want to stay in or return to. it shouldn't have some amennaties, like T.V. Video Games, Cable... and it should be constantly monitored, the prisioners should have little to no privacy.

Should they offer work programs, education and training, healthcare, drug rehabilitation or sex offender treatment?

Sex offender "treatment?" You mean, castration? Of course. Others, yes.

Should prison cells have beds for inmates to sleep in or should they just have straw or a bench or a plank of wood for inmates to lie on?

Cots for "graduated" inmates, bench and blanket for Spartan conditions

Should prison cells have toilets or should thay only have a bucket?

Public toilets for the "graduated" inmates (dependent of good behavior); bucket for the rest

Should prison cells have shower facilities, TVs, or video game consoles?

Yes; yes; no

How should badly behaved inmates be punished?

Mundane, "unpopular" work, such as maintaining clean facilities, combined with solitary confinement and reduction to Spartan conditions

What's your opinion in general?
Here's what prison should be like:
1-3 months of spartan living with hard labor mandatory as an addition to and prior to issued sentence, depending on severity of crime.
After that, the actual "sentence" begins, with a graduated system of amenities. Under the first 1-3 month system, one person to a cell, two small meals a day, one bucket for drinking water, one for excrement. One prisoner, on a rotational basis, empties the excrement buckets from each cell (placed outside through a steel door too small to fit a person through, and locked from the outside) once a day, under guard of course. Extensive use of shackles maintained. Once a day for three hours, prisoners are taken out in small groups under guard for fresh air and hard labor. No other luxuries allowed; once a week, dependent on good behavior, prisoners given a day (6 hours) of free time outside of the cell.
After this 1-3 month system, prisoners "graduate" to issued sentence time in designated prison, with limited access to TV and telephone, a sponsored education program or paid work. Depending on length of sentence, other amenities may be added, dependent on good behavior: free time, access to hygienic facilities (up until this point the bucket of water serves as drink and wash), exercise facilities and societal immersion programs (civil service, volunteer work). Privacy, for duration of sentence, should be foregone.

drunk driving
firing a gun randomly into the air
attempted anything

All have a victim...at least the last one, and the others you are lucky to not have one...and they all have a culprit who should be punished

iAy! Tu no comprendes...

Entonces, debes hablar más claramente.

All have a victim...

potential victims are not victims. However confusingly potential energy is energy.

Genarlow Wilson (http://www.wilsonappeal.com/index.php) got 10 years for consentual sex between him at 17 and his girlfriend of 15.

I hate this country even more now...I'll have to pardon him, but by then he'll be free. :( Anyone under 21 should not be able to be convicted of a sex offense...unless it can be combined with something like a rape-murder or rape-assualt...

Should prison cells have beds for inmates to sleep in or should they just have straw or a bench or a plank of wood for inmates to lie on?

Should prison cells have shower facilities, TVs, or video game consoles?

How should badly behaved inmates be punished?1. They should have cots not beds.

2. Showers needed, TVs okay, video game consoles should be given to the poor.

3. Yes, bad inmates should be punished.

I hate this country even more now...I'll have to pardon him, but by then he'll be free. :( Anyone under 21 should not be able to be convicted of a sex offense...unless it can be combined with something like a rape-murder or rape-assualt...

I have to disagree with that last part. A 17-year old rapist is still a rapist if he has unconsential sex with a sleeping 30-year old, and an 18 year old should be convicted of a sex offence if he molests a child even if it's without the use of violence, force or other forms of coercion.

But it's the cases where the sex is consentual and the persons are almost equal in age one should avoid convictions. And no mandatory minimums. I don't like them as they can have very unfortunate results.

potential victims are not victims. However confusingly potential energy is energy.

True.

In the case of "attempted" crimes, however, this makes someone a victim of an attempt. Which is, incidentally, a victim.

In my ideal country, there would be no prisons.

Fines, heavier fines, corporal punishment, and execution. In that order.

Lot's of issues with trying to revamp the whole system to such a degree, but hell, if we scale the fines right, the justice system just might turn a profit!

Prisons, in my limited experience, are not effective. They are more likely to change people for the worse, and thus inmates are more dangerous to society.

Were I to determine the sentencing, I would have a 4 tier system.

House arrest – have to wear a monitoring device but otherwise live at home. Every so often (frequency depending on the convict) someone will randomly show up to check on the inmate. Violating this restriction will get you additional time in the second tier system. Those who are likely to continue to conduct any illegal activities, or those for whom this is not a significant impact on their life, will not be eligible for house arrest. This should drastically reduce the cost of low grade offenders.

Second tier is for non-violent and many first-time offenders. This is a rehabilitation facility focused on exactly that: rehabilitation rather than punishment. The cells will be simple bunk-beds with a toilet and sink. During the day the inmates will have access to communal areas including an outside exercise area and a tv room (which will only be showing things like BBC world news, or educational and cultural programs – they will not be able to watch things like ‘Ow my balls’) which will also double as a social area. Inmates will be required to attend various counseling sessions (type and frequency depending on inmate – probably weekly group sessions with others of the same type) until the counselor deems them not likely to re-offend. Several hours a day will be spent working. They will be given various jobs from cleaning up trash along the highway to basic prison operations (cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc). Any excess labor will be used in some sort of commercial capacity to help fund the prison. Food will be 3 nutritious and fairly bland but not objectionable meals a day. There are two ways an inmate will go from here.

Inmates who behave well will get better living arrangements and access to education. During their sentence, they can avail themselves of vocational training as well as some more academic pursuits. They will also be allowed a choice of jobs and given food that is a little more palatable rather than tasteless. From this point, prisoners have the possibility of early release.

Those who misbehave will see a drastic drop in their living standards. They could be confined to a cell all day long, given food that is fairly nasty tasting, - actually, I just had a thought… They could be given emergency food relief rations that we send to famine stricken areas. Basically it is a thick gruel which doesn’t taste very good (and sometimes tastes a little metallic) but contains all the vitamins and minerals one needs for the day in a single bowl of goop. Not something that should be eaten for a prolonged period of time, but it is very cheap to make and will provide you what you need to survive. Work detail will be fairly miserable, but if they refuse to work they could be thrown into solitary confinement for a while with nothing but water and gruel. Anyone who is violent – harming either guards or other inmates can be sent up to the high security prison.

The high security prison is for those who have committed violent and chronic offenders. This is where people have a truly miserable time. First step would be screening and evaluation by a psychiatrist. Many of those in prisons today are mentally ill and would be reasonably behaved if their disorders were treated. Anyone especially difficult could be kept slightly sedated. This would make them far easier to control and possibly, if there seems a good likelihood, put through a rehabilitation program.

Since inmates here are the chronic offenders (most of the first time offences would be sent to second tier prisons first, so we are presuming ‘rehabilitation’ is thus far fairly ineffective). These will be living in very Spartan conditions – nothing but a hard bunk, toilet, and sink in the cell, and served a bowl of gruel. If they want better treatment and conditions, they can sign up for work duty. This will consist of doing the various jobs around the prison (laundry, cooking, etc) as well as some sort of heavy labor work. This is not slave labor, I have to work to pay for a roof over my head and food in my belly, why shouldn’t they? The conditions are not pleasant, but the inmates can, through hard work and good behavior, earn some small comforts. If the staff thinks the inmate to not be a risk, and has not caused trouble in the past, they could be sent down to a second tier prison.

The top tier is for those who are truly hopeless cases. Those who are not likely to ever integrate into society and will always pose a threat to others get a one-way trip to a fourth tier facility.

Prisoners in good health can opt to donate their blood and organs. Those that choose to do so will be housed in comfortable rooms with good nutritious meals until the doctors have recipients lined up – then the inmate is dissected to remove all usable tissues.

Those who do not have good organs, or choose not to donate them, go into a gladiatorial arena. They will be given a choice of weapons, some basic training, and then be pitted against each other on pay-per-view. The money made off these fights goes to fund the prison system to reduce the burden placed on taxpayers. As gladiators progress, they could be given better standards of living (still not opulent, but something somewhat comfortable).

Since an inmate’s behavior determines if, when, and how he moves through the penal system, this should (with some minor tweaking) sort inmates according to how well they could be rehabilitated. Someone who is not a danger to society can get counseling to deal with whatever issues they may have which contributed to their violations, as well as some education to help provide them with some skills to be able to make a life for themselves after their release. Prisoners who remain a threat to society and cannot be safely integrated back into society are removed. The lower the security, the lower the cost, so sorting prisoners to the lower levels should reduce the cost of incarceration. Additionally the employment the prisoners undertake helps to supplement the prison budget to further reduce the impact on taxpayers.

Given the amount of money spent on professional sports, gladiatorial combat should earn enough money to pay a substantial portion of the penal system. If done right, it might even be able to be completely self-funded.

Should they offer work programs, education and training, healthcare, drug rehabilitation or sex offender treatment?

Should prison cells have beds for inmates to sleep in or should they just have straw or a bench or a plank of wood for inmates to lie on?

Should prison cells have toilets or should thay only have a bucket?

Should prison cells have shower facilities, TVs, or video game consoles?

How should badly behaved inmates be punished?

What's your opinion in general?

Prisons should be a lot like an episode of 'The Facts of Life' except that Mrs. Garrett packs heat. :)

I like the way you think.

:eek:

I'd support a two-tiered prison system, one for the reformables, and one for the irreformables.

The reformables would have access to educational resources, better living conditions, a structured environment and several other similar things. Very liberal sort of view. Offer all sorts of incentives for good behavior, TV time, video games, etc. These are people who have a future if they work at it, just right now, because of circumstances, they made a mistake.

Irreformables would be stuck in a 10'x10' concrete room with a cot, sink and a toilet. They get gruel, crackers and a vitamin pill through the door everyday for nutrition, as well as a fresh pair of clothes. Their clothes would be entirely made of cloth, no metal permitted.

Good behavior would permit them to read a different book at their leisure, although the book would be chosen by pschologists.

New bedsheets would arrive once a week, to be put onto the bed by prison staff while the inmates are lined up for inspection by the warden.

Piercings would be strictly forbidden.

If anything in the cell should break, the prisoner would be moved to a temporary cell until maintenance staff could repair it.

It would be clean and humane, but insanely boring. It would also be a great alternative to the death penalty.

To define irreformables, I'd leave that up to psychologists and the legislature. Three-strikes laws would be a good way to define that, as well as the current definition of capital crimes.
I'd go with that.

EDIT: And I'd have to go no smoking, even outside. In British prisons at least, it's not prohibited.

<snip for length>

either segregate them by crimes...or quit debtor prisons and stop the fucking joke war on drugs,then they could afford to house people humanely,cause the prisons will empty.

Secret aj man, I never saw a post of yours that was worth the electrons, til now.
Good stuff.

EDIT: I know my kind of wit doesn't come across well and I don't use enough smilies. Let me make it plain: SAM's post was excellent, without a wasted word, and until the last para (which I quoted) a very credible account of his own experiences.
The last para (quoted) I agree with, and I'll add that jailing people for debts is economic insanity, and that drug crimes (other than unwitting administration of drugs) are not in fact crimes, since there are no victims.
We all have opinions. Some of us can argue our opinions, and some even make the effort to provide evidence. But it's posts like aj's, on-topic testimony from experience, which raise NSG a bit above 'debate camp.'

What I'm basically talking about is chemical and/or surgical behaviour modification. Prisoners would be regularly injected with various psychiatric drugs to enforce obedience, complacency and a placid nature. For a more permenant solution, various types of brain surgery such as lobotomies would be utilised; as time goes on and enough money is given to research in the area (the research would be carried out on prisoners of course) I believe the techniques of behaviour modifying brain surgery could become able to target specific undesirable behaviours without undue damage to useful parts of the brain; possibly through the use of electronic implants and the like.

It's like A Clockwork Orange meets Dr Mengele.

Ah yes, the prison system. Yes, I believe there should be prisons. No, I don't believe in the death penalty and would never enforce it. Here's how it needs to work - all offenses are categorized. Category 1 through 5, just like hurricanes. Category 1 is the small stuff. Murderers and rapists are Category 4. It takes a real fuck-up to reach Category 5 status. Zacarias Moussaoui would be a Category 5 offender, as would Timothy McVeigh. You basically have to kill a bunch of people, conspire to kill a bunch of people, or kill in the most fucked-up manners that include torture and captivity in order to reach Category 5.

Here's the breakdown:

CATEGORY 1: for petty shoplifting, simple assault, slightly dangerous driving, vandalism, holding up signs that say "God hates fags" outside of a person's funeral...this would be for a first or, maybe, second offense
PENALTY: Fines, counseling, court-ordered programs, but generally no loss of freedom and the offense disappears from your permanent record after 5 years of not doing it again

CATEGORY 2: for repeat Category 1 offenders as well as people who take cars for joyrides, unarmed robbers, more serious assault and domestic violence, sales of banned substances (I don't think drug use should be a crime, but selling tainted stuff should be,) more dangerous driving (slightly impaired, possibly,) tax evasion, and simple breaking and entering...if it doesn't really cause any injury, it's a Category 2; any of this that does is probably Category 3
PENALTY: House arrest for a pre-determined time followed by a period of monitoring; during the monitoring period, criminals still have to wear an ankle bracelet and may be prohibited from entering certain establishments. If no crimes are committed during this time, the offense may disappear from the permanent record after 7 years. Also, in some cases, an effort will have to be made to repay any damages to the state or to victims.

CATEGORY 3: for repeat Category 2 offenders, assault with intent to injure, deliberate destructive behavior, torture and/or mutilation of animals (hunting is still OK in some circumstances, but killing your neighbor's dog by shoving bottle rockets up his ass is not,) manslaughter, seriously impaired driving, destruction of property on a medium scale
PENALTY: Jail. Or gaol, if you're British. All prisoners would have morning, afternoon, and evening programs. Wake-up is at 6 AM, breakfast at 7. Morning program is from 8-12, lunch is 12-1, afternoon program is 1-5, dinner is 5-6, evening program is from 6-9, and lights out is at 10. Evening programs tend to consist of classes, therapy sessions, rehabilitation, and job training. Morning and afternoon sessions tend to consist of work, although each inmate will be allotted time to exercise out of three half-sessions per week. Visitors would be allowed on Sundays, which would be off days for prisoners during which they could watch TV and interact with other inmates.
Those who behave will gain more visitation rights, more exercise time, and maybe even the occasional Saturday off. Those who don't behave run the risk of losing visitation rights, being worked in the evenings, being worked on Sundays, and being allowed to interact with others only through work and classes. Basically, it's not trying to be sadistic, just tough. Sadistic would be for those Category 3's who don't learn and become...

CATEGORY 4: Murderers, rapists, child molestors, people who make terroristic threats, people whose inaction kills people despite their job mandating it (i.e. the 911 operator who deliberately disconnects a dying man and doesn't send out a squad) as well as those Category 3's who commit their crimes again or misbehave repeatedly in Category 3 facilities.
PENALTY: Prison. And not a jail, or even a gaol - a real prison. Maximum security. People who don't kill have the chance of getting out in a long while - say, a rapist might serve 30 years while the murderer serves life. The child molestor serves, say, 40 years, but they better not kill the child, or it's life. Solitary confinement is a repeated but temporary punishment. Visitors are not allowed under any circumstances. The work day is 12 hours, 7 days a week. Wake-up is at 6, breakfast is at 7, work starts at 8, goes to 8, dinner follows, and lights out at 10. No rehab, no nothing, just something designed to break the inmates' will. In addition, unlike in Category 3 jails, inmates are not addressed by name and are forbidden from using names - they are identified strictly by a number. This is tattooed on their arms.
No TV, entertainment, exercise facility, or anything - they are given enough food to stay alive and not have their bodies break down. We don't want them to die. We want them to suffer. We want them to identify as prisoners and believe that they deserve to be incarcerated. Those serving sentences that are shorter than life (say, the rapist serving 30 years) receive "personal calendars" that detail when they are getting out - in days, not years. For an offender, it could be Day 238; to us, it's January 22nd. What the rapist wants is Day 10,950 - about thirty years after they were put into prison, not counting leap days. That date can be pushed back for bad behavior, but it will very rarely be pushed forward.
Escape will be made as impossible as it can be, and the threat will be as follows - escape more than once, or escape and commit a crime, even jaywalking, and you're off to...

CATEGORY 5 - for the real fuck-ups. Serial killers, torturers, mass murderers, terrorists, revolutionaries (active ones, anyway...people who just say that the government sucks and needs to be replaced are ignored, whereas people who stage attacks with the intent to undermine or disrupt the government are thrown in here,) repeat Category 4 offenders, Category 4's who can't keep under control, and people who start or attempt to start civil unrest and rioting along already tense lines (racial, religious, socio-economic, etc.)
PENALTY: Confinement in total remoteness. A facility in the most remote part of the country, imprisonment in isolated cells, and no contact with anyone. Food given through a slot in the wall, all the walls made of steel-reinforced concrete, the only thing resembling a window is at the top of the always-locked door and is just there for ventilation, a toilet and a sink, a razor, a plastic tumbler, and all food to be eaten with one's fingers. If you break your sink in a fit of rage, all that means is that you don't have a working sink - poor you. Since escape is nearly impossible thanks to every room being monitored by cameras, all walls being reinforced, the facility surrounded by electrified walls, chasms, moats, and snipers, and all personnel being Army members who are flown in by helicopter for stints of only six weeks at a time, any destructive behavior by an inmate is punished by letting them live in their own destruction. The rooms do not have beds, and the inmates are issued minimal clothing and no blankets.
There is only one time when a person can be killed, and that is if they actually do manage to escape. Out of every billion people who try to escape a facility like this, 999,999,999 will fail or die trying. For the one person who does manage it? The entire military is put on alert, as is the FBI, CIA, and every state and local police force in the country. Even the Canadian and Mexican governments are put on alert - you see this person and confirm who they are, kill them on sight. Identifying them should be easy if they don't cover their heads - their prisoner number is tattooed on their head, hands, chest, and legs. Therefore, a person wearing a ski mask to rob a convenience store while there's an escaped Category 5 on the loose is likely to get more than they bargained for.

Rehabilitation should be the focus for people who can be helped by it. Beyond that, punish, degrade, and destroy.

Rehabilitation should be the focus for people who can be helped by it. Beyond that, punish, degrade, and destroy.

I've wanted to go into that much detail so many times...

...my posts get ignored anyways. :p

I don't agree with everything in the system you devised, but I agree with most of it.

I also agree with your last statement 100%. People who refuse to abide by society's rules, even after repeated chances to do so, do not deserve to be coddled by society.

and, of course, one thing we know for sure is that prisons as an idea are the perfect sort of institution to cause horrific abuse against people held within them. the very nature of the concept ensures that those held there are viewed as less than human - and treated as such - no matter their crime (or utter lack thereof). see the stanford prison experiment, abu ghraib, and the entire usian prison system for shocking and disturbing examples

so all you "yay prisons!" types, what do you have to say about this?

so all you "yay prisons!" types, what do you have to say about this?

Are you quoting yourself?

so all you "yay prisons!" types, what do you have to say about this?

So? If we're not imprisoning people, what are we doing?

As I stated in my first post, I prefer a system of fines, corporal punishment, and execution.

Corporal punishment is now widely discouraged, and many people do not support the death penalty, even under extreme circumstances.

So if we're not locking them up, and we're not killing them, and we're not even whipping them, what is left?

Fines? Just fines? How exactly would that work?

I dislike prisons as an institution, but I don't see Western society embracing a workable alternative anytime soon.

Prisons are obviously necessary, and should be unpleasant but not inhumane. Prison cells should be equipped with a toilet, a bench with a thin mat to make it vaguely not uncomfortable. There should be exercise every other day, though there shouldn't be any weights, just a track to run on, a bar to do pull ups on, that sort of thing. Food should be nutritious, but bland and tasteless, though if prisoners are good, every Saturday they should get something a little better. Prisoners should be able to pursue some education, and some basic job opportunities should be made available to them once they get out. Health care should be adequate, With basic medication if they need it, surgery in case of an accident, etc. There should be monthly inspections, at random, to check the health of the prisoners, find out if guards are taking bribes, or if there are any abuses of power. Where there is hard labor that can be done, prisoners should be doing it, though work conditions and safety conditions should be kept good. Injustice breeds criminals, and if the prisons are systems where injustice is the rule, then criminals will only be made worse by them.

so all you "yay prisons!" types, what do you have to say about this?

For lifers and people who commit horrific crimes, they deserve nothing better. For people who can be rehabilitated, the system must be kept in check to ensure that abuse is not committed. For the lifers, just make sure they stay alive and productive. For the real fuck-ups, well, to hell with them. Let the bastards rot. Since the death penalty's such a pain in the ass anyway, and since such people will likely want to kill themselves after complete solitude for such a long time, fuck them. Fuck the Moussaouis and McVeighs of the world. Fuck the Dahmers and Gacys of the world. Just...fuck it. They deserve the abuse.

So? If we're not imprisoning people, what are we doing?

a variety of things, depending on the circumstances. the primary function should be the repair and restoration of the community and everyone involved, as best as possible.

one of the numerous huge problems with the prison system is that the entire concept creates an even bigger divide between 'the criminal' and 'the community', and then makes it permanent. not only are people automatically treated as less than human while incarcerated, they are lesser humans forever after, when they have allegedly already paid their debt to society. what this leaves out is that we still have to live together. since our 'solution' doesn't at all focus on making sure that we can live together, it should be no surprise that it monumentally fails to do so. but in that failure, it causes a continuation of the original problem.

aside from issues of a fundamental mistake in how to deal with crime, an unavoidable part of the reason that prison cannot focus on allowing us to be able to live together is that it is impossible to have a prison that doesn't turn out individuals that are broken. that is what the nature of the beast is - if you weren't broken in some way before you got there, you will certainly be so by the time you get out. now, an institution for turning out broken individuals has many uses. actually dealing with the problem of crime is not among them. instituting a society-wide system of surveillance and hierarchical control on top of formal egalitarianism, on the other hand...

As I stated in my first post, I prefer a system of fines, corporal punishment, and execution.

and when it turns out that you've caned, maimed, and killed a whole pile of innocent people? shit, sending them to prison is bad enough.

IMHO, and along the lines of some of the things that have been said already, I think prisons as we know them need to go.

The idea of locking someone up for some arbitrary amount of time is inherently wasteful. With the growing number of inmates in this country's prisons, the idea of imprisonment as a deterrent appears to be failing. An alternative?

Firstly, crimes committed that can conceivably be paid back, such as vandalism or theft ought to have the convict sentenced to some sort of work facility where they can work off their debt. The debt would be the value of the items stolen/damaged plus the costs incurred in the arrest, trial, etc. It also wouldn't be unreasonable to add the cost of supporting them in this facility. For the first offense, the amount credited to them per work hour should be some reasonable amount, like minimum wage. Allow them to work overtime. If they do good work, allow them to send some portion of their earnings to family that they support. Perhaps a portion to the victims, depending on the specifics of the crime. Repeat offenders could have the amount earned to be reduced so that it takes longer to work off a particular amount of debt.

Conditions in this facility should be reasonably comfortable but not overly so. Simple ammenities like television, books and other recreation should be available to inmates to keep morale up. Visits should be liberally allowed.

Light to moderate Violent crimes should have similar goals for compensation of victims, according to a standard scale. Furthermore, an apology and some form of counseling should be a part of rehabilitation. The costs would be covered by the work done by the inmate.

Severe violent crime like rape or murder should be handled in a case by case basis, but this is where the death penalty would shine. Obviously, a case of accidental killing where the intention was not to cmmit murder shouldn't be punishable by death, but a massive debt to society is incurred, and could possibly take the rest of the convict's life to repay. In any case, intensive therapy or counselling should be given to the convict, especially in a rape situation, and release should be contingent upon the completion of such a program.

Other crimes that are neither violent nor able to be compensated for monetarily, like molestation or hacking, would follow similar lines to the light-moderate violent crime track, with varying levels of required therapy/counseling where needed. (Obviously computer hacking isn't really a "treatable" mental illness while molesting children is.)

Finally, Once a person has literally repaid their debt, their record should be wiped clean. There should be no publicly available criminal record, no registration lists to get onto, at least for first time convicts. These things are meant to track repeat offenders yet are applied to all. That needs to change.

*snip*
I'm sorry, but I feel you're quite out of touch with reality. All I really see that you want to do is remove the incarceration part of the prison system, and reinstate forced labour for those who cannot pay their debts.

And seriously, why on earth would you want to remove the possibility of tracking - or even knowing about - repeat offenders?

I have to disagree with that last part. A 17-year old rapist is still a rapist if he has unconsential sex with a sleeping 30-year old, and an 18 year old should be convicted of a sex offence if he molests a child even if it's without the use of violence, force or other forms of coercion.

But it's the cases where the sex is consentual and the persons are almost equal in age one should avoid convictions. And no mandatory minimums. I don't like them as they can have very unfortunate results.

I meant...nvm...rape is fine then...to charge people with

Should they offer work programs, education and training, healthcare, drug rehabilitation or sex offender treatment?

all of the above. If you don't you just continue the cycle of crime and lock up.
Should prison cells have beds for inmates to sleep in or should they just have straw or a bench or a plank of wood for inmates to lie on?
they should have beds, just don't make them comfortable.

Should prison cells have toilets or should thay only have a bucket?
of course they should have toilets, anything else and you have a health risk.

Should prison cells have shower facilities, TVs, or video game consoles?
everything but video games or internet.

How should badly behaved inmates be punished?
single confinement
What's your opinion in general?
should be a punishment, though not abusive. give them skills so they don't reoffend.

Have you ever served time at one of them?


I feel like agreeing with this - only one thing, and that is that TV and consoles might be given as a good behavior reward to some prisoners, or to some perpretrators of some types of crime. For exaple where the prisoner is serving, say, less than six moths?


I agree that violent and non-violent criminals ought to be seperated, but I don't agree that violent criminals should recieve a poorer treatment in general.

My reason is that the non-violent crime often can have worse consequences for more people than violent crime has. To illustrate my point: As horrible as a rape is, it usually only have one direct victim (and sometimes some "indirect" victims, like family etc). Financial crime - white-collar crime - may effect many people, maybe hundreds or even thousands (see Enron) of people, and actually destabilize the society itself. Why should the perpetrators of such crimes be treated better than a rapist?


that's a valid point that i could agree with.

i guess i did not think of the many hurt by white collar crimminals...so you do have a good point.

i do see a distinction between a thug life person and a greedy asshole.

maybe give the white collar asshole hard labor,and the money he makes goes towards compensation to his victims?

i cant see any way to compensate the victim or victims family of a violent crime like rape or murder any comfort other then the knowledge he is being punished and not raping people inside cause he is bigger,or watching the basketball game on tv.
he needs to have a stark existence...no tv...no walking about bullying people...a cell,a book,and a toilet is all a violent fuck should get.

i will say there is a world of difference between a white collar enron type and a pothead or dui type...neither should be in with thugs,but i suppose they should have different punishments...the enron types and the dope types.

the only way to hurt the enron type is to toss him in with the thugs(not right)or take what he values most...money and freedom.

Secret aj man, I never saw a post of yours that was worth the electrons, til now.
Good stuff.

EDIT: I know my kind of wit doesn't come across well and I don't use enough smilies. Let me make it plain: SAM's post was excellent, without a wasted word, and until the last para (which I quoted) a very credible account of his own experiences.
The last para (quoted) I agree with, and I'll add that jailing people for debts is economic insanity, and that drug crimes (other than unwitting administration of drugs) are not in fact crimes, since there are no victims.
We all have opinions. Some of us can argue our opinions, and some even make the effort to provide evidence. But it's posts like aj's, on-topic testimony from experience, which raise NSG a bit above 'debate camp.'


ummm thanks i guess.

j/k
i know alot of my posts are rambling and sometimes diatribes.
chalk that up to a few things i would rather not get into...i will say this topic is one that contributed,along with way too much alchohol consumption for my own reasons.

that said,i appreciate the kind words,or at the least..the fact that you read and considered my points...thanks.

i have to agree with you,on first hand knowledge,that drug crimes are not crimes(and i dont do drugs)
the prison system is glutted with non violent people,tossed in with violent thugs.
this causes a myriad of problems with society when the non violent/drug/debtors get released..as they will.
1.it can and does create a crimminal or survive at all costs mentality with the released non violent folk,they had the displeasure of being abused or having to lie to survive.
2.it creates mental disorders with non violent types...depression,loss of job,loss of family,more drug use or alchohol abuse to numb the pain or anxiety caused by the experiance.
3.it creates a circle of recidivism....you lock up a guy because he has a drug habit,or cant afford to pay a fine,the incarceration causes him/her to lose their job or family...they are broke...they have no support system or money...then what?

my cynical side tells me that is the idea...to create job security in the crimminal justice system.

but then again,i am jaded.

the war on "drugs" is despicable,and i dont do them..but rest assured...the war on drugs has destroyed more families and lives then drugs ever have.

put drug offenders in rehab if your serious...but jail...that solves nothing,and creates more problems then the drug use.

i know i cant look at a cop without getting tense and overwhelmed with anxiety...and i was innocent,i cant imagine some poor guy that got locked up with the animals i was with over a joint!

thanks again for the consideration.

Secret aj man, I never saw a post of yours that was worth the electrons, til now.
Good stuff.

EDIT: I know my kind of wit doesn't come across well and I don't use enough smilies. Let me make it plain: SAM's post was excellent, without a wasted word, and until the last para (which I quoted) a very credible account of his own experiences.
The last para (quoted) I agree with, and I'll add that jailing people for debts is economic insanity, and that drug crimes (other than unwitting administration of drugs) are not in fact crimes, since there are no victims.
We all have opinions. Some of us can argue our opinions, and some even make the effort to provide evidence. But it's posts like aj's, on-topic testimony from experience, which raise NSG a bit above 'debate camp.'


ummm thanks i guess.

j/k
i know alot of my posts are rambling and sometimes diatribes.
chalk that up to a few things i would rather not get into...i will say this topic is one that contributed,along with way too much alchohol consumption for my own reasons.

that said,i appreciate the kind words,or at the least..the fact that you read and considered my points...thanks.

i have to agree with you,on first hand knowledge,that drug crimes are not crimes(and i dont do drugs)
the prison system is glutted with non violent people,tossed in with violent thugs.
this causes a myriad of problems with society when the non violent/drug/debtors get released..as they will.
1.it can and does create a crimminal or survive at all costs mentality with the released non violent folk,they had the displeasure of being abused or having to lie to survive.
2.it creates mental disorders with non violent types...depression,loss of job,loss of family,more drug use or alchohol abuse to numb the pain or anxiety caused by the experiance.
3.it creates a circle of recidivism....you lock up a guy because he has a drug habit,or cant afford to pay a fine,the incarceration causes him/her to lose their job or family...they are broke...they have no support system or money...then what?

my cynical side tells me that is the idea...to create job security in the crimminal justice system.

but then again,i am jaded.

the war on "drugs" is despicable,and i dont do them..but rest assured...the war on drugs has destroyed more families and lives then drugs ever have.

put drug offenders in rehab if your serious...but jail...that solves nothing,and creates more problems then the drug use.

i know i cant look at a cop without getting tense and overwhelmed with anxiety...and i was innocent,i cant imagine some poor guy that got locked up with the animals i was with over a joint!

thanks again for the consideration.

Should they offer work programs, education and training, healthcare, drug rehabilitation or sex offender treatment?

Yes to all of the above.

Should prison cells have beds for inmates to sleep in or should they just have straw or a bench or a plank of wood for inmates to lie on?

Beds.

Should prison cells have toilets or should thay only have a bucket?

Toilets.

Should prison cells have shower facilities, TVs, or video game consoles?

Yes, maybe, and no.

How should badly behaved inmates be punished?

Restriction of privileges for small infractions up to solitary for larger ones.

What's your opinion in general?

Prison should not be cushy, but it shouldn't be draconian either. Most prisons, especially low and medium security ones, should offer job training, education, and such. Most petty crimes are committed because the offender sees no other way to get along. If we help them to find a job when they get out, they are much, much less likely to turn back to crime. If we don't, what else do they have but $10 in their pocket and a bunch of ties to criminals?

Anyone hear George Carlin's routine on how to improve the prison system? Funny shit, that.

Anyone hear George Carlin's routine on how to improve the prison system? Funny shit, that.


the bit about the fences,where they open the gate once a year?

out in the desert..sort of a survivor gone crimminal show?

funny stuff.

Should they offer work programs, education and training, healthcare, drug rehabilitation or sex offender treatment? With the exception that sex-offenders ought to be excecuted, yes.

Should prison cells have beds for inmates to sleep in or should they just have straw or a bench or a plank of wood for inmates to lie on? Yes. The should be a bed, but it should be just on the pleasent side of comfortable, not anything luxurious.

Should prison cells have toilets or should thay only have a bucket?Toilets

Should prison cells have shower facilities, TVs, or video game consoles?Showers? Yes. TVs? In select recreation areas. Video-games? No, absolutely not.

How should badly behaved inmates be punished?Merciless beatings. Not really. Corporal punishment is fine (so long as it's not abuse) and more "modern" punishments are good, too.

What's your opinion in general?A lot of things that are put in prisons are too luxurious. And a lot of persons in prison ought not to be there: muderers (not manslaughterers) and sex offenders ought to be excecuted.

While I agree that sex offenders should be (well i believe in castration) I don't think all sex offenders should be grouped same.
I mean few months ago 17 year old got registrated as sex offender for having sex with his 15 and 11months old gf.
And I know a guy who's ex-gf accused him of raping her. Even though she admited it was a lie later, he was already registrated sex offender. He is a school teacher by proffesion.
heh

I sort of like the person who erected tents in the middle of the desert to house the inmates and then made all the inmates wear pink.

I sort of like the person who erected tents in the middle of the desert to house the inmates and then made all the inmates wear pink.
Absolutely my idea of a perfect prison.
Don't get arrested in Maricopa County, Arizona.

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/joe_arpaio.jpg

Don't get arrested in Maricopa County, Arizona.

yeah, since they don't apparently believe in the presumption of innocence. what with sheriff fuckhead being in charge of the county jails, rather than the state prisons. most everybody in there is awaiting trial. the rest are misdemeanor offenders.

Prisons should at least have air-conditioning. For the safety of the guards at the very least. Those who seem to be redeemable should be seperated from the rest of the population and given educational oppurtunities. Other then that, for the rest, all TV's and such should be removed it is supposed to be PRISON after all.

Prisons should at least have air-conditioning. For the safety of the guards at the very least. Those who seem to be redeemable should be seperated from the rest of the population and given educational oppurtunities. Other then that, for the rest, all TV's and such should be removed it is supposed to be PRISON after all.

remove the tv and guards get killed

remove the tv and guards get killed

Then give the guards tasers and such to subdue unruly prisoners. They ought to be working on a chain gang anyway, not watching The View.

Prisons are ineffective as they currently are. However, some of the alternatives would be either inhumane or equally ineffective, or both: for instance, today's rehabilitation programs or forced-labour camps.

A better idea would be to have all of the non-capital criminals start off with a rather uncomfortable, small prison cell with just the basic humane necessities (nothing really interesting). Prisoners would then be given options: they could work at necessary projects in return for better food, larger and more comfortable cells, books, videogames and so on; they could attend rehabilitation programs while in prison, with some material benefit resulting; they could do nothing and stay in their insanely boring conditions until it was time for their release; other options to be determined by whoever's in charge.

Capital criminals: murderers, rapists, terrorists and so on, could be turned into food and distributed to soup kitches, forced into manual labour until they expire, or any of a number of other such schemes, as putting them to death is really a waste of life and resources.

Then give the guards tasers and such to subdue unruly prisoners. They ought to be working on a chain gang anyway, not watching The View.

they have them (and worse) already. if you make prisoners miserable, they will attack both each other and you whenever they get a chance. this is just a fact. another fact is that you cannot create conditions that prevent this entirely without utterly destroying the prisoners, physically and mentally.

What Should Prisons Be Like?
Prisons should be sufficiently unpleasant as to deter crime.

they have them (and worse) already. if you make prisoners miserable, they will attack both each other and you whenever they get a chance. this is just a fact. another fact is that you cannot create conditions that prevent this entirely without utterly destroying the prisoners, physically and mentally.

Then do that. Especially with lifers and assholes. They don't deserve the dignity of being treated like human beings if they have committed murder, child molestation, or anything horrific. The fact is, the guards should be allowed to do whatever they can to break their prisoners down as criminals and to completely and utterly destroy their spirit.

Then, once that's accomplished, the rebuilding can begin as a unit. Prisoners would be rebuilt as a group of workers. That is, if they can be rebuilt, and those who cannot be rebuilt...well, continued efforts can be applied, and if they fail, well, it's off to the most hardcore, isolated prison ever.

There shouldn't be any, criminals should all be executed, they are a drain on our economy; because we have to feed them, clothe them, and pay for there medical expences with the taxes we pay. Criminals cannot be rehabilitated, take them out back and shoot them.

yeah, since they don't apparently believe in the presumption of innocence. what with sheriff fuckhead being in charge of the county jails, rather than the state prisons. most everybody in there is awaiting trial. the rest are misdemeanor offenders.

You say this like it's a bad thing.

Well, since they are a weaker version of hell, I suppose they shouldn't be too pleasent. I mean, prison after all is supposed to be a punishment, and criminals are supposed to hate it. As for social interaction, it would simply make the best of the inmates intermingle with the worst. The good would get bad, but the bad wouldn't get good.
The only kind of recreation I could support would be books (mostly classics), perhaps. Like a bunch of places to get to Project Guttenburg (http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page). And I think the inmates should have to do a lot of work. Maybe they should have to farm, or something.

Then do that. Especially with lifers and assholes. They don't deserve the dignity of being treated like human beings if they have committed murder, child molestation, or anything horrific. The fact is, the guards should be allowed to do whatever they can to break their prisoners down as criminals and to completely and utterly destroy their spirit.

Then, once that's accomplished, the rebuilding can begin as a unit. Prisoners would be rebuilt as a group of workers. That is, if they can be rebuilt, and those who cannot be rebuilt...well, continued efforts can be applied, and if they fail, well, it's off to the most hardcore, isolated prison ever.

that isn't how human beings work. at all.

that isn't how human beings work. at all.

Then apparently the military doesn't exist, since it's impossible to tear people down and rebuild them as something different. Believe me, it's possible to tear someone down completely. It's possible to destroy one's psyche. It's possible to turn a person into a shell of themselves. And it's possible to turn them into something else. That's not to say it won't have some negative consequences, but these are prisoners we're talking about here. I wasn't suggesting that someone be destroyed psychologically for stealing a candy bar, smoking dope, or knocking out a transformer with his car...but murder? Hell, why not.

that isn't how human beings work. at all.

I recommend joining the army, recognising the truth within 1984, or both.

Idealism and optimism in human nature is almost always disappointed and is a poor way to think of people. I recommend becoming an embittered, cynical misanthrope as soon as you get the chance.

Then apparently the military doesn't exist, since it's impossible to tear people down and rebuild them as something different.

the military goes in for extended periods of total isolation and lack of physical activity and sensory deprivation? remember, we were talking about why prison officials themselves want prisoners to have tv. without it and similar things, prisoners are much more bored and angry and dangerous. and if you want to deprive them of those things, and want to not be losing guards and other prisoners regularly to violence, then you'd have to take drastic steps that are expensive, inhumane, and will frankly get you put up on trial for crimes against humanity.

though you are right to notice a basic connection between prisons and the military. but this is more a condemnation of the military than anything else. other noteworthy similarities can be found with schools and the workplace - all of which are essentially horrific and should be abolished as soon as possible. these similarities are not accidental, either.

I personally think the current US Prisons are too generous for the most part. If left upto me, I would have the Prison split into three sectors. One would be for the more horrendous and violent crimes, the other for the lesser crimes, and the third would be Death Row.
Sector 1--Death Row
-cells: 4'(w)x6'(l)x10'(h), no window, non-removable steel toilet, single steel non removable bed (no mattress, no sheets, no pillow), a roll of toilet paper, no clothes, That's it. (Note: room temp would maintain 74 degrees F)
-No privileges, no tv, no books, no recreational/excercize time, nothing whatsoever.
-No Visitation/Mail Rights. Exception: Lawyer by appointment ONLY, limited to 30 minutes, Lawyers will be stripped searched and observed throughout appointment (Guards will watch but will not be able to hear.)
-Food: will be fed 3 times daily at 5 and 11am and 5pm all meals consisting of water, 2 slices of plain toast (white bread), fruit cocktail.
-The only light in the cell will be similar to that of a nightlight 24/7.
-Showers: once a week, individually hosed down by guard (cold water).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sector 2: The most horrendous and Violent Offenders
-consists of a 6'(w)x6'(l)x10'(h) with a small, single barred window close to the ceiling. A non-removable single bunk bed with one inch mattress with a sheet, no pillow. A non-removable steel toilet bowl.
-2 inmates/cell. each would have own bar of soap, toothpaste and brush, completely shaved head, flip flops, 2 t-shirts, 2 underwear, 2 khacki type (light weight) pants, no socks.
-Food: would be fed 3 times daily, breakfast served at 5am consisting of water, 2 slices of toast (white bread) and one peice of fruit (varies). Lunch served at 11am consisting of water, small bag of potato chips, and a balogna sandwich (no condiments, one slice of cheese). Dinner served at 5pm consisting of salad (no dressing), water, 2 boneless chicken legs, one cup fruit cocktail.
-No TV, one educational book, 1 hour of excercize every other day, 1 hour of recreation per week. lights out at 8pm (each cell would have some sort of night light), lights on at 4:45am, 24/7 guard watch.
-Shower 3 times per week in a group shower with own showerheads with cold water. Heavily guarded.
-Mail and Visitation: All incoming and outgoing mail is to be inspected and read. (2 visitors per visit) visitations once per month, guests must be approved and limited to immediate family only. Lawyers will be allowed visitation once per week for no longer than one hour each visit. Lawyers will under go a strip search and during the visit will be observed through a sound proof transparent glass Guards will watch but cannot hear (Room would be sound proof). Visitations may be rejected at any time and will be left to the Warden's discretion. All visitations are by an appointment only and must be approved.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sector 3: General Population
-Cells will be 12'x12'x10', 2 single non removable steel bunk beds with one inch single mattress and one sheet no pillow. Non removable steel toilet and 2windows close to the ceiling, 4 inmates/cell.
Activities: (Note: meals vary)
4:45am-Lights on. 5am-one hour of excercize 6am-breakfast 6:30am-daily group showers; return to cells after shower 8am-one hour to watch tv in auditorium 9am-one hour recreation 10am-2 hour lock down 12pm-lunch 1pm-prison duties/chores; work; etc... 6pm-dinner 7pm-lock down 9pm-Lights out; will still have similar to night light left on.
Heavily guarded 24/7.

the military goes in for extended periods of total isolation and lack of physical activity and sensory deprivation?

Not necessarily, but they are capable of destroying and rebuilding a person. Just because the military is considered noble and prisons are not doesn't mean that one cannot learn a thing or two from the other.

remember, we were talking about why prison officials themselves want prisoners to have tv. without it and similar things, prisoners are much more bored and angry and dangerous. and if you want to deprive them of those things, and want to not be losing guards and other prisoners regularly to violence, then you'd have to take drastic steps that are expensive, inhumane, and will frankly get you put up on trial for crimes against humanity.

Who's going to be putting who on trial for crimes against humanity? Let me put it this way. For the really bad people, i.e. child molestors, rapists, murderers, I am advocating taking away TV and putting the inmates to work for extended amounts of time. That means long days on a chain gang. No boredom there. And if prisoners attack, they can be subdued with force, sure. I don't have a problem with a guard tasering unruly inmates who actually deserve it. In fact, I would argue that any prison inmate who behaves in an unruly manner should be forced to wear a shock collar and be on constant monitoring. If they don't like it, they should have behaved a little better.

As for crimes against humanity...boo fuckity hoo. Some whiny people won't like it, but when prisoners are put to work in jobs that no one else will do, people sure will like having clean highways, broken rocks, new license plates, and whatever else we can make prisoners do.

I should repeat: I advocate this only for real scum. Car thieves, bar-fight participants, and even accidental killers? Regular jail will do for them. TV should be limited there, not forbidden.

though you are right to notice a basic connection between prisons and the military. but this is more a condemnation of the military than anything else. other noteworthy similarities can be found with schools and the workplace - all of which are essentially horrific and should be abolished as soon as possible. these similarities are not accidental, either.

Fixing the military is another tale for another day, but frankly, any connection between prisons and the military should be used to degrade prisoners, rehabilitate jail inmates, and lift up the military to being able to actually support themselves. No more of this $18,000-a-year bullshit, especially with the poor care that they get in Iraq. But that's a tale for another day. It's sad that prisoners have it better than Marines.