NationStates Jolt Archive

Archaeology has always been a favourite pasttime of mine, especially the "unknowns" of archaeology. So I decided to make this here thread to discuss any interesting theories, stories, findings etc.

I would like to start by talking about a program I saw on the Discovery Channel last year, where they were talking about find a possible ancient temple off the coast of a Japanese island. It was amazing how large the stones where and all, and it was an underwater find. Anyways they said if it was a temple, and it was as old as they thought, then it would significantly change the history of the world.

Also, can anyone tell me more about under water archaeology? Like if there is a big push for it or any other big finds like this possible temple?

I'm an archeology fan.
Those structures off the Japanese coast are not human-made however...

I'm an archeology fan.
Those structures off the Japanese coast are not human-made however...

Well that was the main argument against it. Some people say yes, and other say no.
Arguments for it was something about a face being carves into a part of it, and also the near perfect alignment of the stones.

Arguments against it said that the stones just fell they way the were from the cliffs, possible in an earthquake or something.

So to me, its still up in the air, although the face was something very intriguing about it.

screw underwater stuff, don't you live right in the heart of hopewell and mississippian land?

Archaeology has always been a favourite pasttime of mine, especially the "unknowns" of archaeology. So I decided to make this here thread to discuss any interesting theories, stories, findings etc.

I would like to start by talking about a program I saw on the Discovery Channel last year, where they were talking about find a possible ancient temple off the coast of a Japanese island. It was amazing how large the stones where and all, and it was an underwater find. Anyways they said if it was a temple, and it was as old as they thought, then it would significantly change the history of the world.

Also, can anyone tell me more about under water archaeology? Like if there is a big push for it or any other big finds like this possible temple?

If that was Graham Hancock, I'd break out the salt.

screw underwater stuff, don't you live right in the heart of hopewell and mississippian land?

yes I do. :D I live about an hour away from a whole bunch on Mounds on the illinois side of the mississippi. Its not uncommon to find arrowheads and such in one's back yard at any given time. :)

I'm more interested in ancient Mesopotamian and Egyptian archeology. Unfortunately the current US war against Iraq has destroyed nearly every single ancient site. What what do US folks know of or care for things older than their own country...? :rolleyes: :(

I know nothing about the finding near Japan, but a recent find near where I live and in the city where I work evidence was found to suggest that the oldest known human habitation in North America may have been discovered. Stone tools were found below the last glacial overburden and are thought to be over 12k yrs old. I live in northern Minnesota so if verified it will be quite a find. My Indian friends think it is all pretty dumb. Their history tell them they have been here much longer. All I know is that the science is not exact yet and there is much to be learned.

i dont know much about underwater archeology except that its not so picked over so they find the coolest stuff.

does anyone have a non-video link to that japanese temple thing?

i dont know much about underwater archeology except that its not so picked over so they find the coolest stuff.

does anyone have a non-video link to that japanese temple thing?

Evidently it was found in 1995, but i just found out about it not too long ago, but its still relativly new

http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni_schoch1.html

or

http://www11.brinkster.com/code10v2/civilization/japan_underwater_ruins.html

they call it a pyramid, but it was described as a temple.

I know nothing about the finding near Japan, but a recent find near where I live and in the city where I work evidence was found to suggest that the oldest known human habitation in North America may have been discovered. Stone tools were found below the last glacial overburden and are thought to be over 12k yrs old. I live in northern Minnesota so if verified it will be quite a find. My Indian friends think it is all pretty dumb. Their history tell them they have been here much longer. All I know is that the science is not exact yet and there is much to be learned.

I too think they have been here longer than 12k yrs ago. It doesn't make sense that people would cross the bering strait when there was glacialiation, if you really think about it. They say that they were following game across, but wouldn't it be so utterly cold that far north in glaciation for anyone/thing to survive.

I too think they have been here longer than 12k yrs ago. It doesn't make sense that people would cross the Bering strait when there was glaciation, if you really think about it. They say that they were following game across, but wouldn't it be so utterly cold that far north in glaciation for anyone/thing to survive.

I really question the single migration theory. I believe there were multiple access points and some arrived over water. I believe there is DNA evidence that is fairly new that talks about two or three waves. Most traditional Indian folks say there were always here. I think are older sites in South America, but I haven't kept up on the findings in recent years. People are very good at adapting to cold, warm, dry, wet. You name it.

I really question the single migration theory. I believe there were multiple access points and some arrived over water. I believe there is DNA evidence that is fairly new that talks about two or three waves. Most traditional Indian folks say there were always here. I think are older sites in South America, but I haven't kept up on the findings in recent years. People are very good at adapting to cold, warm, dry, wet. You name it.

I honestly believe they came here via boats. I figure if really ancient people could get to Australia, and oceania, via land and then rafts, then I figure more advanced people could have "Island hopped" their way over to the west cost.

Or perhaps they hopped the aleutians instead of going through the straight. Although the weather around the aleutians is rather wild, but it could have been more tame then?

I really question the single migration theory. I believe there were multiple access points and some arrived over water. I believe there is DNA evidence that is fairly new that talks about two or three waves. Most traditional Indian folks say there were always here. I think are older sites in South America, but I haven't kept up on the findings in recent years. People are very good at adapting to cold, warm, dry, wet. You name it.?? you mean the genetic evidence showing that the "native" american population features 5 genetic strains, 4 from east asia and one from europe (cf. clovis and the connexion to solutreen culture), that merged into one?

Evidently it was found in 1995, but i just found out about it not too long ago, but its still relativly new

http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni_schoch1.html

or

http://www11.brinkster.com/code10v2/civilization/japan_underwater_ruins.html

they call it a pyramid, but it was described as a temple.

thanks

?? you mean the genetic evidence showing that the "native" american population features 5 genetic strains, 4 from east asia and one from europe (cf. clovis and the connexion to solutreen culture), that merged into one?

One from Europe?


Hmm Interesting. Last year in my Anthropology class, my professor showed us an article about a caucoid type of person on the west coast of the US, before European colonization was even thought of. I don't remember the outcome of the whole thing. And that was a few years old too. I wish i remembered the point of it all :(

I know nothing about the finding near Japan, but a recent find near where I live and in the city where I work evidence was found to suggest that the oldest known human habitation in North America may have been discovered. Stone tools were found below the last glacial overburden and are thought to be over 12k yrs old. I live in northern Minnesota so if verified it will be quite a find. My Indian friends think it is all pretty dumb. Their history tell them they have been here much longer. All I know is that the science is not exact yet and there is much to be learned.

my experience with natives is they know little about archeology and don't like any evidence that disputes their own beliefs.

my experience with natives is they know little about archeology and don't like any evidence that disputes their own beliefs.

Especially the Aborigines of Australia. They were given proof of their genetic heritage in Africa and scientists showed them the probable trail of where they came from, but they still beleive they were created in Australia. But more power to them!

One from Europe?


Hmm Interesting. Last year in my Anthropology class, my professor showed us an article about a caucoid type of person on the west coast of the US, before European colonization was even thought of. I don't remember the outcome of the whole thing. And that was a few years old too. I wish i remembered the point of it all :(Yes, it seems that some folks came to N America by boats (like the skin clad boats still used by Inuit) all along the rim of the N Atlantic pack ice... the bone needles used by Inuit even until today to make waterproof boats from animal skins bear closes resemblance to those used by folks in southern France, and also arrow and harpoon heads found in Clovis resemble those of Europeans but not those of East Asians.

One from Europe?


Hmm Interesting. Last year in my Anthropology class, my professor showed us an article about a caucoid type of person on the west coast of the US, before European colonization was even thought of. I don't remember the outcome of the whole thing. And that was a few years old too. I wish i remembered the point of it all :(

the remains of that specimen have been locked up and are not available for study, natives claim any pre-european remains are theirs and must not be studied but reburied. The remains in question do not appear to be native american but older, possibly related to the Ainu of Japan. Of course the natives want nothing to do with this idea as it throws into doubt the evidence for them being the original inhabitants of the americas.

Yes, it seems that some folks came to N America by boats (like the skin clad boats still used by Inuit) all along the rim of the N Atlantic pack ice... the bone needles used by Inuit even until today to make waterproof boats from animal skins bear closes resemblance to those used by folks in southern France, and also arrow and harpoon heads found in Clovis resemble those of Europeans but not those of East Asians.

I bet that gives way to Euro-centrists claiming superiority over Natives. I'll have to look into this.

I bet that gives way to Euro-centrists claiming superiority over Natives.I don't see how that would create any basis for a superiority claim , but I fear some might try nevertheless... however, the Europeans of those days are not the ones of modern times (way before the advent of Indoeuropeans), so I don't know if such a claim would make sense at all, in fact it would only support a superiority claim of Inuit over current Europeans...

?? you mean the genetic evidence showing that the "native" american population features 5 genetic strains, 4 from east asia and one from europe (cf. clovis and the connexion to solutreen culture), that merged into one?

what's with the scare quotes around native?

and the split between X2a and the the rest of the X2 clades is very deep, probably right at the beginning of it's spread and diversification out of the near east. we aren't talking about 'europeans' in any modern sense.

I too think they have been here longer than 12k yrs ago. It doesn't make sense that people would cross the bering strait when there was glacialiation, if you really think about it. They say that they were following game across, but wouldn't it be so utterly cold that far north in glaciation for anyone/thing to survive.

The Inuit live in those conditions even today, and their technology to do so was up to the challenge of glaciation. Not until the most modern of technological advancements have we produced equipment that matches that of the Inuit. Their traditional skin boats are still better than any modern boats made out of high tech materials in resisting extreme cold. So they had the technology, the food sources were there, the knowledge of cold weather survival was there and physically they were adapted to the climate. There is no reason to doubt they could have made the journey. The Aleuts still make open sea journeys in the most hostile of conditions in open boats just as they have for centuries.

what's with the scare quotes around native?

and the split between X2a and the the rest of the X2 clades is very deep, probably right at the beginning of it's spread and diversification out of the near east. we aren't talking about 'europeans' in any modern sense.

Would they be more like what Central Asians are like? Like East of the Urals and all?

The Inuit live in those conditions even today, and their technology to do so was up to the challenge of glaciation. Not until the most modern of technological advancements have we produced equipment that matches that of the Inuit. Their traditional skin boats are still better than any modern boats made out of high tech materials in resisting extreme cold. So they had the technology, the food sources were there, the knowledge of cold weather survival was there and physically they were adapted to the climate. There is no reason to doubt they could have made the journey. The Aleuts still make open sea journeys in the most hostile of conditions in open boats just as they have for centuries.

Well its also warmer today than what it was in an ice age, or I'd assume so anyways. But I do trust that they possibly could have survived it. Im just thinking it doesn't seem so likely, IMO.

Yes, it seems that some folks came to N America by boats (like the skin clad boats still used by Inuit) all along the rim of the N Atlantic pack ice... the bone needles used by Inuit even until today to make waterproof boats from animal skins bear closes resemblance to those used by folks in southern France, and also arrow and harpoon heads found in Clovis resemble those of Europeans but not those of East Asians.

that would be coincidental if true, as the inuit peoples are way later arrivals than the proposed "X2a from europe" guys, and are certainly very closely related to their siberian cousins.

I bet that gives way to Euro-centrists claiming superiority over Natives. I'll have to look into this.

it doesn't, it just claims that migration could also have come from Europe via the Atlantic ice pack. DNA tests on natives in the North east of Canada and the USA are different than the rest of N American natives. The inclusion of the different genetics would seem to point to a date of 11,000 to 17,000BP. Technology of projectile points in this region have more in common with European technology than N American technology of this time. Early days on this yet but it is interesting, stone age man journeying across the Atlantic during the ice age have never been considered as possible.

what's with the scare quotes around native?well, when speaking of the original human influx into america it's somewhat strange to speak of natives yet.

Well its also warmer today than what it was in an ice age, or I'd assume so anyways. But I do trust that they possibly could have survived it. Im just thinking it doesn't seem so likely, IMO.

it's only warmer where you live, if you're an Inuit in Greenland it's still Ice Age temperatures.
On the continent of Asia in Eastern Siberia, lies the town of Oimyakon, located on the Indigirka River. Populated by 4,000 people, it is the coldest permanently inhabited place on Earth. Here, some of the world's coldest temperatures are recorded every year; they average about -60 F, sometimes falling to -90 degrees F.

One from Europe?


Hmm Interesting. Last year in my Anthropology class, my professor showed us an article about a caucoid type of person on the west coast of the US, before European colonization was even thought of. I don't remember the outcome of the whole thing. And that was a few years old too. I wish i remembered the point of it all :(

I'm told by my daughter an archeology student that recently there was a similar discovery in S America but that body too was taken away by local natives and reburied.

?? you mean the genetic evidence showing that the "native" american population features 5 genetic strains, 4 from east asia and one from europe (cf. clovis and the connexion to solutreen culture), that merged into one?


~coughs~ that's not really an accepted theory. Dennis Stanford is sort of thought of as being a crackpot by some. It's an elegant solution and I happen to believe it, but there's not very much clear evidence that he's right yet. Also, Clovis has been dated to 13,500 years back, not 12k. You have to be careful when looking at older dates because calibrated carbon 14 dating has recently been developed and it knocks the dates back a couple k.

Would they be more like what Central Asians are like? Like East of the Urals and all?

hard to say. the splitting of the X2 haplogroup occurs around the time of the last glacial maximum, after which is where we start getting people into areas sort of like where they are today. descendants of the founding X2 woman are currently spread all over the place, but in very low frequencies. the highest concentrations of any of the X2 subclades are actually those found in the algonquian peoples. other high-ish concentrations appear to be some founder effect things in the israeli druze and the orkney islanders (that's right, middle easterners and scotsmen), the people of cyprus, and in some of the peoples of the caucasus.

quoting from a paper by reidla et al (american journal of human genetics, 73:1178–1190, 2003):

"We surveyed our Old World haplogroup X mtDNAs for the five diagnostic X2a mutations and found a match only for the transition at np 12397 in a single X2* sequence from Iran. In a parsimony tree, this Iranian mtDNA would share a common ancestor with the Native American clade. Yet, the nonsynonymous substitution at np 12397 converting threonine to alanine cannot be regarded a conservative marker...Therefore, the scenario that the threonine to alanine change in the haplogroup X background is indeed due to recurrence appears most plausible."

so we have no idea who the amerind X2's are most closely related to. but it's not the scotsmen.

that was quite incomprehensible for most people. Try repeating it in comon english:D

that was quite incomprehensible for most people.

good point, but do we really want to continue to bog down a thread nominally on archaeology with genetics?

well, the genetics could be an important clue as to where native americans came from...maybe your last sentence is the important bit: we have no idea who the native american x2's are most closely related to, but it probably isn't western european...

It is interesting to note that the genetic markers DO NOT provide proof that technology (solutrian) couldn't have transited along the Atlantic route over a 1k year period to take North America by storm around 13K ago. In fact, it may have taken the missing 1K years to travel that far over what would have been a tough route. Women might not have been part of that route--it maye have been more of a hunting fishing whaling route for men, who brought the ideas and not the genes...

I worked on an archaeological dig during the summer. It was interesting and enjoyable work. We were looking at a stone age tomb near Leixlip, some 20km west of Dublin.

Archaeology has always been a favourite pasttime of mine, especially the "unknowns" of archaeology. So I decided to make this here thread to discuss any interesting theories, stories, findings etc.

I would like to start by talking about a program I saw on the Discovery Channel last year, where they were talking about find a possible ancient temple off the coast of a Japanese island. It was amazing how large the stones where and all, and it was an underwater find. Anyways they said if it was a temple, and it was as old as they thought, then it would significantly change the history of the world.

Also, can anyone tell me more about under water archaeology? Like if there is a big push for it or any other big finds like this possible temple?
I remember that.

I worked on an archaeological dig during the summer. It was interesting and enjoyable work. We were looking at a stone age tomb near Leixlip, some 20km west of Dublin.what did you find?

it doesn't, it just claims that migration could also have come from Europe via the Atlantic ice pack.
It would not be hard to island hop across the North Atlantic from Europe.

Norway/Britain > Faroes > Iceland > Greenland > Baffin > Canadian mainland

what did you find?
Rocks, some of which were arranged in formations for burial. We also found many pieces of sharpened flint and burnt cow and human bones.

Rocks, some of which were arranged in formations for burial. We also found many pieces of sharpened flint and burnt cow and human bones.

was the site chosen for the burial sites?

Also, can anyone tell me more about under water archaeology? Like if there is a big push for it or any other big finds like this possible temple?

Discovery of the Dwaraka city off the coast of Gujarat, India (the city is said to be ruled by Lord Krishna per the epic Mahabaratha) and the discovery of much older city off the coast of Mahabalipuram in south India submerged in the sea.