NationStates Jolt Archive

Linky (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6279241.stm)

A prominent Turkish-Armenian editor, convicted in 2005 of insulting Turkish identity, has been shot dead outside his newspaper's office in Istanbul.

Crowds of Hrant Dink's colleagues and supporters gathered at the scene, chanting their outrage at his murder.

Dink was given a six-month suspended sentence in October 2005 after writing about the Armenian "genocide" of 1915.

The US, EU and Armenia have condemned his murder and Turkey's leaders vowed to bring those responsible to justice.

"A bullet has been fired at democracy and freedom of expression," Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan told a hastily convened news conference.

It was bad enough that he was charged with a crime, and now he's been murdered. Hopefully this mans death will help bring about Turkey recognizing the Armenian genocide.

Agreed

How come other countries don't get away with that sort of thing? Turkey denies the Armenian holocaust, but Germany can't deny it's holocaust, nor can the USA deny slavery and the treatment of the Native Americans. Why does Turkey get away with it?

How come other countries don't get away with that sort of thing? Turkey denies the Armenian holocaust, but Germany can't deny it's holocaust, nor can the USA deny slavery and the treatment of the Native Americans. Why does Turkey get away with it?

Its not as if there is a central world authority that allows or disallows countries to accept their past. Germany cannot deny the holocaust because Germans do not want to deny the holocaust, the Turks need to elect politicians who would repeal article 301 and recognize the genocide.

One more reason turkey does not belong in the EU.

How come other countries don't get away with that sort of thing? Turkey denies the Armenian holocaust, but Germany can't deny it's holocaust, nor can the USA deny slavery and the treatment of the Native Americans. Why does Turkey get away with it?He was actually instrumental in even starting the debate in Turkey. Before he wrote about it, calling it a genocide was a terrorist act. Much like the top Kurdish minority leaders recently got convicted to several years in prison for writing an appeal for a foreign governments protection of the only real Kurdish public service TV station. They were convicted not for having done anything criminal, but for having expressed support for a business run by a man that likewise wasn't convicted, but simply rumoured to support PKK.

Free speech is far reaching in Turkey. There's very few things you can't get away with expressing. Political dissent, or sometimes just a lack of blind support, is pretty much it. Unfortunately, that's of course also the most important aspect of freedom of speech.

Why does Turkey get away with it? Because... Lots of reasons. Atatürk, the 'founding father' & the guy the place is named after, was something resembling a secular social democrat. And the opposite. Because the Turkey he created (and he pretty much did, singlehandedly) was in no way ready to be anything of the sort. It was deeply divided, socially, economically & religiously. Every time he tried establishing a democratic govermnent, totalitarians came running.

Eventually it sort of worked. After years of extensive reforms that would have caused a civil war, if he hadn't basically forced the have-nots to learn to read. But it only sort of worked. Much of Turkey is to this day socio-economically stuck in the early 1800s. Trapped by ruthless class division, where religion & ignorance is beat into people (often literaly).
In a country where porn bars, punkers, plastic fantastic & everything else you'd expect in urban UK is everywhere, and only on TV for 50% of the population. Just out of reach, forever.

These days, EU is the ticket for the unfortunate half. It is, because it's the only way EU will accept Turkey. Being in a state of unofficial civil war with the 20 million strong Kurdish minority, who for the most part can't understand Turkish & have a radically different cultural heritage, a war anathema to EU menbership, where Turks are killed left & right by PKK, and where only the foreign, religion-based totalitarian forces (and to some extent USA) supports genocide, it's hard to choose. The old typically want the wealth, the stability & even the leaving alone of the Kurds, if they really have to. The young don't have the patience, nor the capacity for forgiveness, and a great many can't stomack the hypocrisy of the west they're sort-of part of. And the young outnumber ther old nearly 2:1.

There's a lot of shit going wrong. It's complicated as fuck. Generally there's a lot of good, perfectly rational & entirely understandable reasons for why the vast majority of the population are doing everything they can to turn their country to shit.

How come other countries don't get away with that sort of thing? Turkey denies the Armenian holocaust, but Germany can't deny it's holocaust, nor can the USA deny slavery and the treatment of the Native Americans. Why does Turkey get away with it?

I think its because the US backs them so they can get away with a lot of shit.

Or thats my reasoning.

I think its because the US backs them so they can get away with a lot of shit. It's not often I get to say this, but it's actually less to do with US backing than with religious fundamentalist tendencies in the population, and the EU being very damn keen on getting Turkey into the fold (even if most of us EU citizens aren't).

Thing is, if the EU makes greater demands, the US will almost certainly back it. But the Turkish population won't tolerate a government bowing to it. Nonsensical, but sadly it's pretty much the state of things. There's a very, very strong "Let's get back to stone age economy, lethal poverty, illiteracy, ironfist totalitarianism & religious fundamentalism" undercurrent in Turkey right now, especially amongst the youth.

How come other countries don't get away with that sort of thing? Turkey denies the Armenian holocaust, but Germany can't deny it's holocaust, nor can the USA deny slavery and the treatment of the Native Americans. Why does Turkey get away with it?

It doesn't. Not from France, anyway. As you may recall, relations between Turkey and France were strained when France took a firm stance on that issue.

One more reason turkey does not belong in the EU.

Why? Because their Prime Minister has condemned the murder and taken position in favour of "freedom and democracy"?

There's no rational reason to keep Turkey out of the EU, and many good reasons to allow it in. Negotiations so far have helped boost Turkey's democracy and civil rights. The prospect of EU membership has undeniably had positive consequences in Turkey.

By joining the EU, they would be bound by EU laws, and will have firmly sided with the West. Turkey lies at a geographical and cultural crossroads, and it's firmly in the EU's interests to have them committed to joining Europe.

There's no rational reason to keep Turkey out of the EU, and many good reasons to allow it in. Negotiations so far have helped boost Turkey's democracy and civil rights. The prospect of EU membership has undeniably had positive consequences in Turkey.

By joining the EU, they would be bound by EU laws, and will have firmly sided with the West. Turkey lies at a geographical and cultural crossroads, and it's firmly in the EU's interests to have them committed to joining Europe.

Well put. :)

There's no rational reason to keep Turkey out of the EU

apart from the social backwardness, rampant human rights abuses, military government and Cyprus

I’m all for Turkey joining the E.U club but the rule is no hoods, no caps and no marital rape

By joining the EU, they would be bound by EU laws, and will have firmly sided with the West. Turkey lies at a geographical and cultural crossroads, and it's firmly in the EU's interests to have them committed to joining Europe.

More like Turkey has been in the fold since they joined NATO (and Turkey hasn’t even bothered with the E.U requirements what makes you think there going to follow E.U law?)

I’m all for Turkey joining the E.U club but the rule is no hoods, no caps and no marital rape

You do know, don't you, that there's a clear standard to meet in terms of human rights before being allowed in? (I have no idea what you mean by "no hoods, no caps", though.)


Turkey hasn’t even bothered with the E.U requirements


They won't be allowed in until they do.


what makes you think there going to follow E.U law?)

See above. And once they're in they'll have no choice.

It's not often I get to say this, but it's actually less to do with US backing than with religious fundamentalist tendencies in the population, and the EU being very damn keen on getting Turkey into the fold (even if most of us EU citizens aren't).

Thing is, if the EU makes greater demands, the US will almost certainly back it. But the Turkish population won't tolerate a government bowing to it. Nonsensical, but sadly it's pretty much the state of things. There's a very, very strong "Let's get back to stone age economy, lethal poverty, illiteracy, ironfist totalitarianism & religious fundamentalism" undercurrent in Turkey right now, especially amongst the youth.

Not all of them are religious fundamentalists. Many of them, like the Grey Wolves, are more nationalist than they are religious.
They dont want to go back to a stone age economy. These people want a strong Turkish nation which stretches from the West of the Province Istanbul to the West of China.

Is it true that most EU citizens dont want Turkey to join the EU? I for one believe Turkey should be in the EU. And yes I am a EU citizen.
Istanbul is one of the greatest European cities. Turkey will still have to undergo some changes, but the same can be said about Bulgaria. And it isn't like my country was very rich when it co-founded the EU.

You do know, don't you, that there's a clear standard to meet in terms of human rights before being allowed in? (I have no idea what you mean by "no hoods, no caps", though.)

yes and what I mean is Turkey is wiping its arse with the requirements and expecting to get in (and no hoods, no caps means it’s a club with an ounce of class in it)

They won't be allowed in until they do.

Then we can give up on Turkey then because its not going to happen

Then we can give up on Turkey then because its not going to happen

You didn't know that Turkey (like all EU candidates) has to meet certain requirements in order to be allowed in, and that they're not expected to be able to join for at least 15 years?

No wonder you have a skewed view on the issue.

I suppose you didn't know that Turkey has indeed been implementing EU requirements (though Brussels says they're being too slow about it)?

You didn't know that Turkey (like all EU candidates) has to meet certain requirements in order to be allowed in, and that they're not expected to be able to join for at least 15 years?

oh dear no I'm saying that its impossible for Turkey to meet the requirements to do so would mean to go against the public and to somehow get the military out of government 2 things which verge on impossible to accomplish especially when there is little will or hope of entry

No wonder you have a skewed view on the issue.

Don’t put words in my mouth

I suppose you didn't know that Turkey has indeed been implementing EU requirements (though Brussels says they're being too slow about it)?

No Turkey is trying to negotiate membership this won’t work because things like human rights aren’t negotiable it’s a simple game of bending the rules somehow so that they can get all the benefits for none of the work

oh dear no I'm saying that its impossible for Turkey to meet the requirements to do so would mean to go against the public and to somehow get the military out of government 2 things which verge on impossible to accomplish especially when there is little will or hope of entryif you take the military out of the government, any democracy and secularism will be gone in no time

if you take the military out of the government, any democracy and secularism will be gone in no time

this is the same military that calls homosexuality a mental condition no?

this is the same military that calls homosexuality a mental condition no?and? the turkish military is not buckingham palace staff.

and? the turkish military is not buckingham palace staff.

so its still not good enough

so its still not good enoughhow? without military or without homos?

Linky (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6279241.stm)



It was bad enough that he was charged with a crime, and now he's been murdered. Hopefully this mans death will help bring about Turkey recognizing the Armenian genocide.

Well, they gotta recognize it sometime. If they deny it, they're crazy bastards.

I don't see why it should be a requirement for Turkey to recognize some genocide. Who is going to feel so much better about this? Moreso how is it going to benefit the EU if they do.

Their economic reforms interest me more, no so much the past.

How come other countries don't get away with that sort of thing? Turkey denies the Armenian holocaust, but Germany can't deny it's holocaust, nor can the USA deny slavery and the treatment of the Native Americans. Why does Turkey get away with it?

Japan has never really faced up to the atrocities it committed, and they have managed to get away with it.

Turkey is only now having to face its past because Europeans are racist.

And @ OP: I think Mr. Dink, wherever he is, would resent being labelled as an 'Armenian'. He was a patriotic Turkish citizen of Armenian extraction who campaigned to improve his nation.

if you take the military out of the government, any democracy and secularism will be gone in no time

Without a politicised military, there is no Turkish constitution. The military, indoctrinated in constitutional ideology, is the first, last and best line of defence against would-be political sabateours.

All constitutions need non-democratic elements in order to support the democratic elements. And this works in Turkey, to try and change it would be immoral and foolish.

How come other countries don't get away with that sort of thing? Turkey denies the Armenian holocaust, but Germany can't deny it's holocaust, nor can the USA deny slavery and the treatment of the Native Americans. Why does Turkey get away with it?
Turkey doesn't get away with it. The price they pay is the inability to get into the EU until they recognise the genocide.