NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, we've had oil at around $55 per barrel for a while now thanks to the warm winter in much of the USA. So why are the gas stations still charging about the same price for gasoline that they did when oil was more expensive earlier this year?

Ok, we've had oil at around $55 per barrel for a while now thanks to the warm winter in much of the USA. So why are the gas stations still charging about the same price for gasoline that they did when oil was more expensive earlier this year?

Because people are willing to pay it.

Ok, from now on I'm not paying for gasoline. I'll siphon it out of my neighbor's car at 3 AM.

Gas Faeries.

Ok, from now on I'm not paying for gasoline. I'll siphon it out of my neighbor's car at 3 AM.


That's what Bush and Cheney do. I hear sometimes they also steal Condi's panties.

Actually, they are going down (http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp).

Ok, from now on I'm not paying for gasoline. I'll siphon it out of my neighbor's car at 3 AM.

Good Ol' inelastic demand. Ain't it great?

Because I drive a 280z.

No!

No, no, no!

The reason it is not going down yet is because the gasoline you are buying now was refined from oil that was bought a month or more ago when refineries were still paying $60+/barrel. Gasoline doesn't follow crude down immediately ever. No one notices this, but it also doesn't follow crude up immediately. Also, it isn't completely coupled to the price of crude because the contracts for gasoline on the NYMEX are a seperate contract and is traded seperatly.

www.nymex.com

Crude may go down, but demand for gasoline coupled with inadequate refinery capacity can keep prices up because of reduced supply. Most refineries retool in the Fall anticipating a rush on heating oil so they make a bunch of that and not as much gasoline. They do the opposite in the Spring.


There's no conspiracy and Bush isn't manipulating the market for his evil friends.

I paid 1.99 the other day for gas. I think thats how much it was when i first started driving nearly 4 yrs ago.

It's been a steady $2.50 for almost 6 months here. I've given up on the price ever going down. It never will.:(

Ok, we've had oil at around $55 per barrel for a while now thanks to the warm winter in much of the USA. So why are the gas stations still charging about the same price for gasoline that they did when oil was more expensive earlier this year?

The price of gasoline only reacts quickly when there is an excuse to raise the price.
It never comes down that quickly.

They wouldnt want to risk people being all giddy and happy at the pump, using the extra dough they save to buy more cigarettes and coffee.

It's been a steady $2.50 for almost 6 months here. I've given up on the price ever going down. It never will.:(

Pah! You Americans and your whining - try living in the UK, where petrol will only go UP in price, never down.

This summer, here in San Antonio, gas got up to $2.70. Just two days ago, I got gas for $1.98. That seems like it's gone down to me....

Pah! You Americans and your whining - try living in the UK, where petrol will only go UP in price, never down.

I'm fully aware it can get much much worse. Unfortunately my 1 to 1.5 hr commute takes a hefty bite out of my ass. And due to the magic of crappy public trasportation it would take me over 2.5 hours if I went that route.

Compared to UK prices US prices are nothing. And believe me I think about that every day when I'm stuck in traffic.

Pah! You Americans and your whining - try living in the UK, where petrol will only go UP in price, never down.

No thanks. I'd rather not have to take an extra job just to buy gas to get to work.

Prices were $2.19/gal last week and now their down to $2.14/gal today. I expect another couple of cents tomorrow when I go to fill up.

Shoot, I got you all beat. I can drive down the street and pay $1.94 per gallon, and the same is true throughout my area (suburbian Indianapolis).

$2.50 per in my area of Vegas. It's times like these that I love not using a set of wheels.

Over where I live gas spikes and drops nearly every few days. It was $2.19 a gal two weeks ago and then last week it was $2.10 a gal and yesterday its was $2.15 a gal. I have no clue what is happening around my place...

I love how the Americans think they've got a case to whine about petrol prices...:p

I love how the Americans think they've got a case to whine about petrol prices...:p

Actually, Americans do. Yes, their prices are technically cheaper than in, say, England, but then again, how much do you really drive in London? Most of the time, you can walk to where you need to go, and if you can't, you have top-tier bus and subway systems to take you about a city. By contrast, carrying groceries or carting them is almost impossible in American cities, because zoning codes stringently seperate commercial from residential neighborhoods, they lack even a cursory public transportation system, and you often have to go through miles of housing developments to get to the nearest store. If you are dumb enough to come over here and walk a four-mile round trip every other day for two bagfuls of groceries in the 110 degree heat, bully for you, but most people in America quite sensibly do not want or need to do that. Unfortunately, it also means that they are more dependent upon petrol prices and more punished by price spikes.

I love how the Americans think they've got a case to whine about petrol prices...:p

Just because you're willing to put up with being screwed at the pumps doesn't mean that everyone is.

No!
There's no conspiracy and Bush isn't manipulating the market for his evil friends. Right... *Cough* Bullshit *Cough*

Why aren't gas prices going down immediately everywhere? Read Dan's post, peeps. That's it right there.

Lone Alliance: Okay, what conspiracy is there, and what proof do you have? I'm willing to listen if you can argue sensibly and have an argument that can't be torn apart by Dan/Vetalia/the others who know more than I do about the subject and whose opinions I'm willing to trust.

I love how the Americans think they've got a case to whine about petrol prices...:p

I don't whine about prices. I don't whine about the fact of my Bronco having a 32 gal gas tank that makes between 12 and 15 miles per gallon. I expect to pay more for the safety of my vehicle, the Luxury of having a roomy truck, AC, Leather seats, driving in style, etc...

I need the extra space, I hate the crunched up feeling I get in riding in cars, I'm 6' 3" tall.

The point is I have never whined and complained about gas prices and I don't expect to either.

Nice generalization by the way. Do all Americans whine about prices? No, not at all. How about prove it? Do you have a legitimate source on whiny Americans over the gas pumps? :rolleyes:

US$2.20 a US gallon is about $0.60 per litre. That's nothing. It's twice that price in Ireland and most other countries. If only your government taxed your fuel more, you wouldn't be fucking the rest of us over.

It's gone down to $2.00 a gallon here for the last few days. Almost like a complete return of the lovely summer cheapness.

In addition to Dan's explanation abut the public trading of gasoline and how that sets prices, but failure to fall is also explained somewhat by the inelastic demand.

Since people don't buy less gas when the price is higher (they tend to buy smaller amounts more often, but the same total amount), there's no revenue incentive for gas retailers to reduce prices. Competition does drive the price down evntually, but that happens much more slowly than the initial bump driven by the wholesale market price.

Again, no conspiracy.

The price of gasoline only reacts quickly when there is an excuse to raise the price.
It never comes down that quickly.

They wouldnt want to risk people being all giddy and happy at the pump, using the extra dough they save to buy more cigarettes and coffee.
The ironic thing is that the gas station owners--independents, generally--make most of their money from those cigarettes and coffee. When gas prices go up, they tend to make less because there's less disposable income going into their stores. I can't even begin to imagine what "pay at the pump" has done to their bottom lines--I never buy anything at a gas station anymore.

Incidentally, I would be happy to get a gallon of fuel (even those pansy US gallons) for $3. That would be a better than 20% price cut from what I pay now (or would, rather, if I owned a car).

I love how the Americans think they've got a case to whine about petrol prices...:p

And how far do you live away from your job?

How far away is your supermarket?

Oh, and how often does a bus come by to take you from point A to point B?

I live 30 miles away from work. I would have to get on the bus 3.5 hours before work. So you really think it's reasonable to spend 7 hrs on a bus?

I live 2 miles from a 7-11 and 8 miles from a supermarket. There's no bus service on the weekends so I'd have to walk 8 miles carrying groceries.

So yes, I have something to complain about when I spend $50/wk on gas.

Right... *Cough* Bullshit *Cough*

So which is it? Is he a moron or an evil genious? Personally, I'lll go with moron. In anycase, I watch the oil markets too closely to believe that there's som grand conspiracy - mainly because there isn't one. Great argument you have there, though. Full of facts and evidence. :)

And how far do you live away from your job?

How far away is your supermarket?

Oh, and how often does a bus come by to take you from point A to point B?

I live 30 miles away from work. I would have to get on the bus 3.5 hours before work. So you really think it's reasonable to spend 7 hrs on a bus?

I live 2 miles from a 7-11 and 8 miles from a supermarket. There's no bus service on the weekends so I'd have to walk 8 miles carrying groceries.

So yes, I have something to complain about when I spend $50/wk on gas.The problem isn't gas prices--it's shitty, short-sighted urban planning that looks at mass transit as a nuisance at best. There's no reason that anyone outside those people who live on farms shouldn't have access to alternative transportation--we just need to do a better job of using the space we have.

The problem isn't gas prices--it's shitty, short-sighted urban planning that looks at mass transit as a nuisance at best. There's no reason that anyone outside those people who live on farms shouldn't have access to alternative transportation--we just need to do a better job of using the space we have.

I completely agree with that. When I lived next to the light rail line I rode it everyday as opposed to driving. There also needs to be an attempt to change bedroom communities into places where people can live and work.

There also needs to be an attempt to change bedroom communities into places where people can live and work.
The market does that when commuting becomes too arduous.

I have always been very independant on myself since a very early age and that continues to present day and is expected to continue throughout my future.

I will not allow myself to be dependant upon the public transportation. I also have been cautious of germs and I know some people reak and that buses are germ-filled. It would make me very uncomfortable so I'll stick with my truck.

It would also be highly incovenient and the fact that I feel my time is worth money. I like to be comfortable, Independent, and like stuff to be convenient which all equals my truck.

Ok, we've had oil at around $55 per barrel for a while now thanks to the warm winter in much of the USA. So why are the gas stations still charging about the same price for gasoline that they did when oil was more expensive earlier this year?

Gas in my area is well below $2 so I don't know what you're talking about.

Huh? Gasoline here has fallen quite a bit; it's hovering around $2 right now, which is consistent with what gasoline should be given its wholesale cost (usually, take the wholesale price and add 60 cents).

However, usually it's due to gasoline stations keeping prices higher to make a little extra money off of the product; because gas is usually not very profitable for station owners, they do this to take advantage of the higher prices to boost their revenue a little and to insulate against sudden spikes in wholesale prices.

it isnt?

2.20 to 1.90 isnt a drop? sure suprised the heck out of me

The problem isn't gas prices--it's shitty, short-sighted urban planning that looks at mass transit as a nuisance at best. There's no reason that anyone outside those people who live on farms shouldn't have access to alternative transportation--we just need to do a better job of using the space we have.

yeah

I completely agree with that. When I lived next to the light rail line I rode it everyday as opposed to driving. There also needs to be an attempt to change bedroom communities into places where people can live and work.

yeah

The market does that when commuting becomes too arduous.

I believe that market forces can provide necessary solutions, but I also believe that the market makes a great slave but a horrible master. There are certain things that cannot be left up to the market and other things that weren't and should have been. Mass transit is a good example of something that the government needs to take the lead on. It's very hard to get private industry to lay rail. It's expensive, takes a long time to do and a long time to pay itself off. The government can help in that area by planning the rail, opening up bidding on contracts to lay it - which takes the long range risk out because the companies laying it will be paid for their work immediately - and when it's done open it up to private carriers. Neighborhood planning, on the other hand, has not been left to the market. Government planning commisions and zoning laws written by people and governments who just believed we would always have an abundant supply of cheap energy planned how our cities and towns would be laid out. That should have been left to market forces.

Price fixing

Where the hell are you guys paying $1.90? I'm still at over $2.20:mad:

Where the hell are you guys paying $1.90? I'm still at over $2.20:mad:

Ohio. We have one of the lowest retail gasoline price averages in the nation.

Ok, we've had oil at around $55 per barrel for a while now thanks to the warm winter in much of the USA. So why are the gas stations still charging about the same price for gasoline that they did when oil was more expensive earlier this year?

ummmm.....price gouging maybe?

But surely the Oil oligopolies would never do something like that!


iirc, they work out their prices according to the dearest barrel they buy. So if they buy 1 mill barrels at $50 and 1000 at $70, their pricing is based on 1001000 barrels at $70 /barrel.
Which of course means that any price drop takes a while to come through, but any increase is immediate.

Pah! You Americans and your whining - try living in the UK, where petrol will only go UP in price, never down.


Where in the UK Skgorria are you as prices have dropped appx 10p a litre at the pumps over the last 7 months.
Current average price for unleaded 95 is 87.3p


Whereas according to the AA fuel price report for July 2006
"Wales has recorded the highest price for Unleaded at 98.2p, with the South West only slightly lower at 98.1p. The North West continues to record the lowest price at 96.9p, followed by Yorkshire and Humberside at 97.2p."

For reference the AA fuel price report for Dec 2006 had
"Wales recorded the highest price for Unleaded at 88.7ppl with East Anglia next at 88.5ppl. The North West continues to record the lowest price at 87.8ppl, followed by the East Midlands and Yorkshire and Humberside at 88.1ppl.


However I do agree with the sentiment that people in the US should stop whining

iirc, they work out their prices according to the dearest barrel they buy. So if they buy 1 mill barrels at $50 and 1000 at $70, their pricing is based on 1001000 barrels at $70 /barrel.

Which of course means that any price drop takes a while to come through, but any increase is immediate.

That's not price gouging, that's just basic business practice. Companies do that all the time on any product they sell; if it costs me $200 to make this TV, I'm going to sell it for as high a price as the market will tolerate. If you can get people to buy your $50 oil for $70, you're making $20/bbl...that's an excellent deal for you as a company or investor.

In fact, that's exactly what oil futures traders do all the time.

That's not price gouging, that's just smart. If you can get people to buy your $50 oil for $70, you're making $20/bbl...that's an excellent deal. In fact, that's exactly what oil futures traders do all the time.
I wasn't meaning future traders. I meant when the Oil cos work out their pricing for the end-consumer (ie us).
We have no say as to the price they set, so it's not really a case of them 'getting us to buy $50 oil at $70'. It's more a case of them 'forcing us to pay $70 for $50 oil'.

Why do you think their profits have been so massive the last few years?
Because they charge the end-consumer (us) the cost of the most expensive barrel of oil they buy, not the average cost of all the oil they buy, which would happen in pretty much every other industry.

I wasn't meaning future traders. I meant when the Oil cos work out their pricing for the end-consumer (ie us).
We have no say as to the price they set, so it's not really a case of them 'getting us to buy $50 oil at $70'. It's more a case of them 'forcing us to pay $70 for $50 oil'.

Well, we wouldn't be forced to buy it if consumers weren't so adamant about buying trucks and SUVs that get 15-20 miles to the gallon.

Why do you think their profits have been so massive the last few years?
Because they charge the end-consumer (us) the cost of the most expensive barrel of oil they buy, not the average cost of all the oil they buy, which would happen in pretty much every other industry.

Well, oil wouldn't be expensive if demand wasn't rising as fast as it is; as producers, the oil companies have a huge incentive to set the market price as high as it can possibly go without affecting demand.

This is mainly because oil demand is fairly inflexible in the short term. If the price of oil were to fall to $10, demand would not rise by a lot because people aren't capable of suddenly consuming more oil or storing barrels of gasoline in the garage. They lose revenue when oil prices fall, so they have little incentive to increase production by an amount large enough to put pressure on prices. At the same time, however, consumers are also less capable of cutting back in consumption (you can't really buy a fuel efficient car overnight or build public transportation in a week), so a short term rise in prices will significantly increase revenue without really affecting demand.

Simply put, inflexible demand for oil enables oil producers to raise prices and increase revenue in the short term without affecting demand. When demand starts to level off or fall, they will increase production faster (although there are other factors affecting this), pushing prices back in to the market's "comfort zone".

crappy public trasportation it would take me over 2.5 hours if I went that route.

At least you have a public transportation system. My town has buses, but they work like taxis in that you call them and arrange a time for them to pick you up. They generally show up anywhere from 30 mins to 2 hours late wherever you call them to. Also, they stop running at 9:00pm or so.

Ok, we've had oil at around $55 per barrel for a while now thanks to the warm winter in much of the USA. So why are the gas stations still charging about the same price for gasoline that they did when oil was more expensive earlier this year?
Because supply is actually exceeding demand or at least at a lesser differential than it was the same time last year.

But the key thing is the Oil companies have us over a barrel and shafting us for every cent, nickel or penny.

Hey Harls, what's the current price of petrol in NZ? I'm heading back there next month and want to know how many organs I'll need to sell to cover the petrol expenses while I do a tour of mid to Upper North Island.

Ok, we've had oil at around $55 per barrel for a while now thanks to the warm winter in much of the USA. So why are the gas stations still charging about the same price for gasoline that they did when oil was more expensive earlier this year?
Gas is dropping here... :confused:

Hey Harls, what's the current price of petrol in NZ? I'm heading back there next month and want to know how many organs I'll need to sell to cover the petrol expenses while I do a tour of mid to Upper North Island.
FIIK i take the Train almost everywhere i go and when i don't i'm leaching a ride from someone.

I do remember when Unleaded 91 used to be around 99c now it is about $1.35.

Yep it is around $1.35NZ(Thats not U.S.$ American swines!)

FIIK i take the Train almost everywhere i go and when i don't i'm leaching a ride from someone.

I do remember when Unleaded 91 used to be around 99c now it is about $1.35.

Yep it is around $1.35NZ(Thats not U.S.$ American swines!)
That's not so bad. Mum said it was like $1.80 a while back.

Ok, we've had oil at around $55 per barrel for a while now thanks to the warm winter in much of the USA. So why are the gas stations still charging about the same price for gasoline that they did when oil was more expensive earlier this year?

Why? OPEC said so, that's why. Any nation that tries to produce more oil would be crushed economically. Also, the heavy crude costs more to extract and refine than light crude.

US$2.20 a US gallon is about $0.60 per litre. That's nothing. It's twice that price in Ireland and most other countries. If only your government taxed your fuel more, you wouldn't be fucking the rest of us over.

If your government didn't tax your fuel you wouldn't be fucking yourselves over.

it isnt?

2.20 to 1.90 isnt a drop? sure suprised the heck out of me

Around my area it was still at 2.20. Last night, however, on my way home from work I found 2.07 gas.

Because people are willing to pay it.

yeah, because we have so much leverage to bargain with the guy at the station when we pull up. They set the prices and we pay. Unless we don't want to go to work and then we can not pay for gas, or mortgage, electric, etc. Do you see another option besides giving them the money. In an answer to the first poster? Have you seen the profits posted by big oil in the past years? Every fricken quarter it's "record profits." Now it's our CEO gets 53 million in a bonus. Wake the F up and realize they are running the world by proxy.

Pffft, you cannot beat me. I get a gas tank for $ 1 where I live. I won't tell you the price of the gallon...First because we use liters and not gallons, and second because the price is ridiculous, cheaper than mineral water.

$ 1 for a full tank. The same price as a coke. Actually, I can give myself the luxury of driving all day every day and spend like $ 5 a month in gas, with a normal Mitsubishi Lancer car, and to spill gas at the station.

I cannot see why are you whining, anyway.

It's been dropping here, too, albiet at a rate of about 1 cent a day. I get to watch competition in action from two different gas stations owned by different companies. One is owned by Kroger--Loaf and Jug--and so their gas price is set three cents higher than the real price so they get as many people as possible on their cards so they have information about the people that purchase their products. The other is owned by...someone, I have no idea who. It might even be locally owned by peeps. Anyway, each time they drop their price the price is reflected in the Loaf and Jug by the next morning. Sure, they continue to appear to be three cents higher, but they really aren't.

I usually take advantage of this when the prices are competing to get gas at the locally owned gas station, since on the average during the competing cycle it's a little cheaper there.

yeah, because we have so much leverage to bargain with the guy at the station when we pull up. They set the prices and we pay. Unless we don't want to go to work and then we can not pay for gas, or mortgage, electric, etc. Do you see another option besides giving them the money. In an answer to the first poster?

Move closer to work and use public transport?

Pffft, you cannot beat me. I get a gas tank for $ 1 where I live. I won't tell you the price of the gallon...First because we use liters and not gallons, and second because the price is ridiculous, cheaper than mineral water.

It's always nice being one of the largest oil producers and have a low enough population that allows you to do that and still have enough revenue to pay for the nationalization of strategic industries.

It's always nice being one of the largest oil producers and have a low enough population that allows you to do that and still have enough revenue to pay for the nationalization of strategic industries.

For DEFENSE!, remember. We are privatizing said industries for defense against the threat of aggressive imperialism!

But yes, we have enough gas to give it as a gift for free to all neighbouring countries. Well, those neighbours we like, that is.

For DEFENSE!, remember. We are privatizing said industries for defense against the threat of aggressive imperialism!

You should enrich uranium. I hear there's some in Amazonas.

But yes, we have enough gas to give it as a gift for free to all neighbouring countries. Well, those neighbours we like, that is.

And as long as they don't piss Chávez too much. Maan, he can be such a queen sometimes!

You should enrich uranium. I hear there's some in Amazonas.

Mahmoud was here, he's our friend and ally, he will show us the way!


And as long as they don't piss Chávez too much. Maan, he can be such a queen sometimes!

It's not that they pissed him, it's just that he pisses them. they cannot stand to be in the same room with such a great leader.

It's not that they pissed him, it's just that he pisses them. they cannot stand to be in the same room with such a great leader.

Uh...is that really you, Aelosia? I do hope that was sarcasm...

It's not that they pissed him, it's just that he pisses them. they cannot stand to be in the same room with such a great leader.

All I hope is that he doesn't get too close to someone with an ego as big as his, that could reach a critical mass and cause space-time to collapse on itself leaving nothing but his speeches in an infinite loop.

Uh...is that really you, Aelosia? I do hope that was sarcasm...

What do you think?

It's lame to put /sarcasm, I remember your standards

All I hope is that he doesn't get too close to someone with an ego as big as his, that could reach a critical mass and cause space-time to collapse on itself leaving nothing but his speeches in an infinite loop.

It's not going to happen. Bush has not the ego and the rest of the region is easily evolving into socialism-oriented countries.

After all, it seems that every latin american country is going to end ruled by Chávez's Yes-men.

Dropped another 4 cents overnight. Now at $2.10 a little north of Tampa.

Which would mean if I was completely empty it would cost me $67.20 to fill-up completely.

Dropped another 4 cents overnight. Now at $2.10 a little north of Tampa.

Which would mean if I was completely empty it would cost me $67.20 to fill-up completely.

67, 2 times the cost of what would cost me a complete fill-up

Ok, we've had oil at around $55 per barrel for a while now thanks to the warm winter in much of the USA. So why are the gas stations still charging about the same price for gasoline that they did when oil was more expensive earlier this year? Only .69 cents a litre here now.....was over a buck.

What do you think?

It's lame to put /sarcasm, I remember your standards

Whew! Okay, I feel better. Haven't seen you in a while. Thought maybe the goon squad there might have gotten to you. ;)

Good to see you again. :)

I wasn't meaning future traders. I meant when the Oil cos work out their pricing for the end-consumer (ie us).
We have no say as to the price they set, so it's not really a case of them 'getting us to buy $50 oil at $70'. It's more a case of them 'forcing us to pay $70 for $50 oil'.

Why do you think their profits have been so massive the last few years?
Because they charge the end-consumer (us) the cost of the most expensive barrel of oil they buy, not the average cost of all the oil they buy, which would happen in pretty much every other industry.

Oil companies have absolutely no control over the price of oil. 75% of the world's reserves are held by governments and 60% of the world's daily oil production comes from the Persian Gulf and American oil companies have no control over how much comes from there. If you take all of the American oil companies together they only control 12% of the world's production. The price of oil is set on the Nymex and is based on inventories vs projected demand. Here's why it fell today:

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Crude-oil futures fell as much as 4% Thursday, sending their benchmark contract to a 20-month low after the U.S. Energy Department reported that crude supplies rose for the first time in eight weeks and the International Energy Agency cut its 2007 outlook for demand for oil and its products.
With crude inventories up 6.8 million barrels and gasoline and distillate supplies both above the high-end of the five-year range "it is hard to see anything but another down day for the petroleum complex," said James Williams, an economist at WTRG Economics.
"If you add in the [recent] Saudi comments of no need for a special meeting of OPEC, it just adds to the bear market in crude," he said.
And "it is strong enough that crude could break below the $50 mark."
Crude for February delivery fell to a low of $50.05 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange, the contract's weakest level since May of 2005. It was last down $1.74, or 3.3%, at $50.50.
Crude supplies jumped 6.8 million barrels to 321.5 million barrels for the week ended Jan. 12, the Energy Department reported early Thursday. That was the government's first-reported rise in eight weeks. Supplies had fallen a total of 26.4 million since late November.
Separately, the American Petroleum Institute said crude inventories were at 322.3 million barrels for last week, up 7.6 million.
Meanwhile, supplies of both distillates and motor gasoline marked their fifth-weekly increase.
Distillates, which include heating oil, rose 900,000 barrels to 141.9 million, the Energy Department said, taking its total rise to 10 million over the last five weeks.
The API reported an increase of 395,000 barrels to 147.5 million for distillate inventories.
Motor gasoline stocks climbed 3.5 million to 216.8 million, the Energy Department said. They're up 16.9 million since early December, the government data showed.
Supplies of the fuel climbed 3.3 million to 219.9, the API said.
Following the news, February reformulated gasoline futures were down 3.86 cents at $1.3425 a gallon and February heating oil lost 3.98 cents at $1.46 a gallon.
Demand slows
Even before the data were released, the International Energy Agency cut its oil product demand-growth forecasts for 2006 and 2007, citing significant revisions in the United States, mild weather, adjustments to U.S. GDP assumptions and lower apparent demand in the former Soviet Union countries.
The IEA is now forecasting demand growth of 0.9% for 2006 and 1.6% for 2007. That's a downgrade of 120,000 barrels a day for 2006 and 160,000 barrels for 2007.
"One key factor driving this revision is the weather ... However, this decline is also structural, notably in the key U.S. Northeast and German markets, as well as in some Asian countries, as consumers switch to natural gas," the IEA said in its monthly report.
Clive McDonnell, chief European strategist at Standard & Poor's, said the downward revision was expected, given the slowing of U.S. growth and surprise weakness in Chinese oil demand growth.
S&P technical analysts have identified $48 a barrel as the next key support level for crude prices.
"A mild Northern hemisphere winter has curtailed growth in demand for oil and natural gas," McDonnell said in a note. "At the same time an unseasonably mild weather in the North East U.S. has boosted home heating oil inventories and led refiners to switch to petrol production much earlier than usual."

http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?column=Futures+Movers

There is no conspiracy. There is no price fixing. There is no mammoth oil company colusion to control the price of oil. They don't have the ability to do that.

But, but...that completely ruins some people's ideas that evil oil companies are running teh world!!!!1one

Damn simple economics. ;)

But, but...that completely ruins some people's ideas that evil oil companies are running teh world!!!!1one

Damn simple economics. ;)

I know. It's much more comfortable to attribute all the bad things to Bush and oil companies. :D

I love how the Americans think they've got a case to whine about petrol prices...:p

I love how Europeans who have decent public transport systems in most major cities feel compelled to gripe about gas prices being so much higher there when they drive a fraction of what Americans have to. I can't walk. I can't take the bus. I have to drive. My job is 30 minutes away from home by car. That would take all night on foot and twice that on a bus, assuming I could get there at all. I need gasoline. It's lifeblood for me.

That said, I was forced to pay $3.15 in August for it, and it's down to $1.95. If that's not a price drop, then I don't know what it is. Of course, we always hear about weird speculation on the price of gas - some people say, "It'll drop to $1.15 a gallon by New Year's" while others say "It'll be back up around $4 a gallon by New Year's"...and of course, they're both way off.

I'm also happy I don't live on Maui when it comes to gas prices. They're up around $3 a gallon STILL, and public transport seems awfully limited.

I know. It's much more comfortable to attribute all the bade things to Bush and oil companies. :D

Sure, simple and comfortable. And extremely ignorant.

I believe that market forces can provide necessary solutions, but I also believe that the market makes a great slave but a horrible master. There are certain things that cannot be left up to the market and other things that weren't and should have been. Mass transit is a good example of something that the government needs to take the lead on. It's very hard to get private industry to lay rail. It's expensive, takes a long time to do and a long time to pay itself off. The government can help in that area by planning the rail, opening up bidding on contracts to lay it - which takes the long range risk out because the companies laying it will be paid for their work immediately - and when it's done open it up to private carriers. Neighborhood planning, on the other hand, has not been left to the market. Government planning commisions and zoning laws written by people and governments who just believed we would always have an abundant supply of cheap energy planned how our cities and towns would be laid out. That should have been left to market forces.
My point was that businesses move their offices out of the city core when the bad commute starts to dissuade employees.

It's easier to hire workers if their travel is less arduous.

Move closer to work and use public transport?

Do you realize we only have adequate mass transportations systems in place in big cities? Do you realize that those cities populations are exceding their capacity? By 2030 NYC will have far more in population than they have the capacity to handle placing massive demands on social services like water, sewage, mass transit, etc. Do you know what the average price of a home in NYC is? How about the surrounding locals of Hoboken, Jersey City, etc. which are the only ones where the Path trains run? You want to buy a two bedroom apartment for $800,000 to live uptown? A place like that in a nicer area costs 1.2 million. Yeah, moving closer sounds like a joyful experience.

edit: would it make sense to travel from rural areas 3 hours each way to your job? Or would that just be a blasted stupid waste of time and worker resources?

Do you realize we only have adequate mass transportations systems in place in big cities? Do you realize that those cities populations are exceding their capacity? By 2030 NYC will have far more in population than they have the capacity to handle placing massive demands on social services like water, sewage, mass transit, etc. Do you know what the average price of a home in NYC is? How about the surrounding locals of Hoboken, Jersey City, etc. which are the only ones where the Path trains run? You want to buy a two bedroom apartment for $800,000 to live uptown? A place like that in a nicer area costs 1.2 million. Yeah, moving closer sounds like a joyful experience.

Do you realize those problems are caused by people making crappy choices about where to live and what to spend money on? Hope the gas prices have taught you a lesson.

Do you realize those problems are caused by people making crappy choices about where to live and what to spend money on? Hope the gas prices have taught you a lesson.

Really, how so? I'd love to hear your explanation for this. The first suggestion was to move closer to my job so if that is the case you'd have to pay 800k-1.2 million for a house. Said area will not be able to be inhabited by as many people as are needed so this is the first instance in which the plan is not realistic. All the while I was thinking it was a supply and demand thing related to the housing market. Few houses with many people wanting the housing generally drives the prices up does it not? The housing prices make the plan unworkable as well. You want a good paying job and you go to the city, but you can't live there because it's outrageous. Further, both England and Ireland import far less petro than the United States therefor the price is higher. Is that not easy to understand? You buy in bulk and you get a better price. There's also the cost of shipping, storing, etc. which I'll leave for you to figure out. Also, most of the world's refining capacity is where? Finally, what lesson are we to be taught. That we are the largest and most financially dominant country on Earth and with this comes some hardships. Already figured that one out professor, "next!!!!"

Ok, we've had oil at around $55 per barrel for a while now thanks to the warm winter in much of the USA. So why are the gas stations still charging about the same price for gasoline that they did when oil was more expensive earlier this year?

You are joking, right? As long as the oil companies can gouge us for the prices they're asking now, they won't go down. The only reason we saw prices go down in September and October was because of the upcoming elections.

After all, how are they going to scrape by on their 75% profit margin if they're not sucking us dry?

Really, how so? I'd love to hear your explanation for this.

People in the US for decades have decided to extend their cities far from the cores and to build unsustainable monstrosities instead of spending money on developing public transport, affordable housing in the city centers (which doesn't have to be single units), and balance development and city growth. The result has been sprawl and long commutes. There are several places where you can't get a liter of milk without getting into a car.

Tell me if those are not crappy decisions. Sure, the cost of doing so with plentiful oil energy was low, but unsustainable in the long term, which is now.

People in the US for decades have decided to extend their cities far from the cores and to build unsustainable monstrosities instead of spending money on developing public transport, affordable housing in the city centers (which doesn't have to be single units), and balance development and city growth. The result has been sprawl and long commutes. There are several places where you can't get a liter of milk without getting into a car.

Tell me if those are not crappy decisions. Sure, the cost of doing so with plentiful oil energy was low, but unsustainable in the long term, which is now.

Don't forget that in the last two decades they've also made the decision to drive those long commutes in Army vehicles.

Just so everyone understands what this word that dan here seems to be trying to turn into a mantra.

conspiracy
n. pl. con·spir·a·cies

An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
A group of conspirators.
Law An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.
A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design: a conspiracy of wind and tide that devastated coastal areas.

Based on dictionary.com for any who wish to know.

Not all laws will bring justice

Just so everyone understands what this word that dan here seems to be trying to turn into a mantra.

conspiracy
n. pl. con·spir·a·cies

An agreement to perform together a n illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
A group of conspirators.
Law An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.
A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design: a conspiracy of wind and tide that devastated coastal areas.

Based on dictionary.com for any who wish to know.

Not all laws will bring justice

:confused: I have no idea what you mean by this post. My position is that the price of oil and gas are set by market forces that oil companies have very little to no control over. Some people in this thread seem to think that there is some kind of backroom handshaking going on between oil companies and maybe even between oil companies and the administration to keep oil prices high. That seems to fit very clearly the highlighted part of your post. What do you mean by "not all laws will bring justice?" :confused:

A conspiracy can only happen when a plan is made that will be aginst the laws of the land it is enacted upon.

Some laws that come into being do not help the people thay are imposed upon, and can make decent folks criminals.

A conspiracy can only happen when a plan is made that will be aginst the laws of the land it is enacted upon.You still lost me. According to the definition you posted a conspiracy is, "An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act." Certainly, American oil companies coming to an agreement to keep oil prices high is both wrongful and illegal. It's wrongful because they cause needless suffering so they can make more money. It's illegal because it violates the Sherman Anti-trust laws against market manipulation through colusion. My point is, and has continued to be that American oil companies are not coluding to keep oil prices high and that even if they wanted to they couldn't.

Some laws that come into being do not help the people thay are imposed upon, and can make decent folks criminals.

What does that have to do with the debate? What laws are you talking about? I was talking about trading futures contracts for oil delivery on the New York Mercantile Exchange, www.nymex.com . While there are laws that govern the trading of these contracts, I'm not sure how they are unjust or how they hurt people. Are these the laws you are talking about? :confused:

What does that have to do with the debate? What laws are you talking about? I was talking about trading futures contracts for oil delivery on the New York Mercantile Exchange, www.nymex.com . While there are laws that govern the trading of these contracts, I'm not sure how they are unjust or how they hurt people. Are these the laws you are talking about? :confused:

Hell, it's organizations like Nymex that make sure we don't have another repeat of the 1970's gas lines; $3 gas might suck, but at least you have some to buy if you need it.

Hell, it's organizations like Nymex that make sure we don't have another repeat of the 1970's gas lines; $3 gas might suck, but at least you have some to buy if you need it.

Which, of course, is the reason trading in oil futures was allowed in the first place. That is often lost in the debate. It's a way to build risk into the future price of oil.

Which, of course, is the reason trading in oil futures was allowed in the first place. That is often lost in the debate. It's a way to build risk into the future price of oil.

And, of course, people forget that every commodity is traded in the same way. In fact, most of the people trading oil have no ties to the oil industry whatsoever; as long as they can guess the direction of oil prices and take a long or short position accordingly, they'll make money whether oil goes to $100 or $10.

I mean, most people just don't realize how big this market is. There are so many people involved that it would be next to impossible for anyone or any company to seriously control prices; of course, given that the US majors only control some 12% of world oil reserves, it's not like they could do anything if they wanted to.

And, of course, people forget that every commodity is traded in the same way. In fact, most of the people trading oil have no ties to the oil industry whatsoever; as long as they can guess the direction of oil prices and take a long or short position accordingly, they'll make money whether oil goes to $100 or $10.

I mean, most people just don't realize how big this market is. There are so many people involved that it would be next to impossible for anyone or any company to seriously control prices; of course, given that the US majors only control some 12% of world oil reserves, it's not like they could do anything if they wanted to.

They lost downside control a long time ago and it appears even OPEC has lost much of it's downside control. American oil companies have some upside control. They could raise oil prices by producing less, but that would mean that they would simultaneously hurt demand for their product and have less of it to sell.

Also, OPEC learned in the 70s what a serious spike in oil prices can do to demand. Within a decade of the embargo the large American muscle cars that had dominated the American landscape since Henry Ford opened his first factory were replaced by little gas sipping Toyota Corollas - much like Hummers are now being replced by Priuses. That's not something that people who sell oil want to see - at least from an oil sales point of view.

Wow. Your gas is all really expensive. Mines not. You all suck.

$1.87 where I live and slowly sliding.

People in the US for decades have decided to extend their cities far from the cores and to build unsustainable monstrosities instead of spending money on developing public transport, affordable housing in the city centers (which doesn't have to be single units), and balance development and city growth. The result has been sprawl and long commutes. There are several places where you can't get a liter of milk without getting into a car.

Tell me if those are not crappy decisions. Sure, the cost of doing so with plentiful oil energy was low, but unsustainable in the long term, which is now.

You do realize how large this country is right? That it would be nearly impossible to create a 'city' at every distance for sustainable growth over an infinite period of time? Affordable housing in city centers that are not 'single units?' Have you seen how large our skyscapers are and how many people we can fit to live in such a small space? We have used an incredible amount of sky to create more and more housing and it does not eleviate the problem. Perhaps you are suggesting we build "city states" the size of small European countries in order to maintain order. We would like to have at least some suburban and rural areas left. MTA in most major cities is just fine, but not everyone can live in that city. Therefor this "sprawl" creates the need to find more housing outside of the metro area. The only way for your 'plan' to work is to expand the cities to cover entire states. Our MTA works great when you want to get in and around cities from shorter distances away. Do you have the desire, and/or ability, to cummute 3 hours each way to work and still find time for your kids? Please pass the magic pill because we are waiting.

You do realize how large this country is right? That it would be nearly impossible to create a 'city' at every distance for sustainable growth over an infinite period of time? Affordable housing in city centers that are not 'single units?' Have you seen how large our skyscapers are and how many people we can fit to live in such a small space? We have used an incredible amount of sky to create more and more housing and it does not eleviate the problem. Perhaps you are suggesting we build "city states" the size of small European countries in order to maintain order. We would like to have at least some suburban and rural areas left. MTA in most major cities is just fine, but not everyone can live in that city. Therefor this "sprawl" creates the need to find more housing outside of the metro area. The only way for your 'plan' to work is to expand the cities to cover entire states. Our MTA works great when you want to get in and around cities from shorter distances away. Do you have the desire, and/or ability, to cummute 3 hours each way to work and still find time for your kids? Please pass the magic pill because we are waiting.
That's a decision. We as a country decided to decant ourselves into low density suburbs. Originally, light rail lines were something that were paid for by developers to carry people who lived in suburbs to the city for their jobs. We decided after WWII that we all wanted to have our own way of getting to and from the city so we developed the Federal Highway program and systematically gutted the light rail systems around teh country and built roads and highways. We also decided in teh last couple decades to make driving Army vehicles to our accounting jobs that are forty miles away fashionable. We made these decisions because of short-sited urban and suburban planning. We built things the way we did because we didn't want to think about energy one day becoming more expensive. Well, the days of cheap and abundant energy are coming to a close and we'll have to make different decisions. This is not a georaphically predestined outcome. We had every opportunity to do things differently.

When i talk of laws that can be unjust i talking about it in a general term as a small example if you were to go and dig around in the law books of many states you would find plenty of laws that range from absurd to down right demented the only method so far used to correct these things is for someones life to be ruined by them before thay are even looked at.

Same for this behavour that humans have adopted is that thay all go and take what seems like the easyest way to make money and nothing is considered untill the whole thing is about to completely collapse, this is what humans do all the time and because corparations are run by humans thay do the same thing the diffrance is that thay tend to act like a human of much more sizable needs and much less forsight.

So humans will always see the worst of themselves in these kinds of orginizations hundreds to thousands of years ago it was religion that was the key tool in this style of events and at that time thay used Faith as the key item, today is companys and thay use money to dominate, a conspiracy is not needed when a person can be kept in line by looking out for there own intrest in the case of companys if the worker douse what he/she is told to the sadisfaction of his immidiate boss and made his boss look good enough to get a promotion that boss might just want to keep that fellow close at hand to keep makeing himself look good.

I fully expect to be misunderstood, so try not to freakout.

When i talk of laws that can be unjust i talking about it in a general term as a small example if you were to go and dig around in the law books of many states you would find plenty of laws that range from absurd to down right demented the only method so far used to correct these things is for someones life to be ruined by them before thay are even looked at.

Same for this behavour that humans have adopted is that thay all go and take what seems like the easyest way to make money and nothing is considered untill the whole thing is about to completely collapse, this is what humans do all the time and because corparations are run by humans thay do the same thing the diffrance is that thay tend to act like a human of much more sizable needs and much less forsight.

So humans will always see the worst of themselves in these kinds of orginizations hundreds to thousands of years ago it was religion that was the key tool in this style of events and at that time thay used Faith as the key item, today is companys and thay use money to dominate, a conspiracy is not needed when a person can be kept in line by looking out for there own intrest in the case of companys if the worker douse what he/she is told to the sadisfaction of his immidiate boss and made his boss look good enough to get a promotion that boss might just want to keep that fellow close at hand to keep makeing himself look good.

I fully expect to be misunderstood, so try not to freakout.

I'm not freaking out. I'm trying to understand how any of what you said relates to the points I've made in this thread. Also, you're new here so I'll give you a little advice. You should try to quote the post you are replying to in your post. It makes it much easier for people reading to understand the flow of the debate and to respond if they choose to.

That's a decision. We as a country decided to decant ourselves into low density suburbs. Originally, light rail lines were something that were paid for by developers to carry people who lived in suburbs to the city for their jobs. We decided after WWII that we all wanted to have our own way of getting to and from the city so we developed the Federal Highway program and systematically gutted the light rail systems around teh country and built roads and highways. We also decided in teh last couple decades to make driving Army vehicles to our accounting jobs that are forty miles away fashionable. We made these decisions because of short-sited urban and suburban planning. We built things the way we did because we didn't want to think about energy one day becoming more expensive. Well, the days of cheap and abundant energy are coming to a close and we'll have to make different decisions. This is not a georaphically predestined outcome. We had every opportunity to do things differently.

Indeed. Just look at any map of this country. Look at its sheer size. It's spread across 3000 miles. THREE THOUSAND MILES! Most of the influential countries in this world are about the size of one of our states! And we've got 50 of them! We're crazy huge, perfect for lots of trains, lots of public transportation everywhere. We don't need cars for every little thing we do. The only reason we do is, as stated, poor planning.

Hell, it's organizations like Nymex that make sure we don't have another repeat of the 1970's gas lines.
What was that all about? I am not too well informed on the oil industry. :)

Nevermind i lost my train of thought because i went of and watch something and the fact that these things are hard to explain because there is no real words to classify these things to others.

I was talking to you Dan.

Just dont be repating the same line to much or you might start sounding like a some kind of odd cultist, the cult of anti conspiritors har har.

while there plans to gain more power dont always end in someone getting hurt directly thay will also not hesistate to knife one another in the back in a monitary way. (I think the fact the corparate trust there customers so much that thay would consider them an enemy is not healthy to the buissness or the ones it serves) Its less that power corrupts and more that power attracts the corrupt and corruptable.

Babbling again.

What was that all about? I am not too well informed on the oil industry. :)

The quick is that when the Arab Oil Embargo hit in 1973 it caused prices to skyrocket overnight. Now, we knew long before the embargo that the world was relying more and more on Arab oil and we also knew that political tensions between the Arab world and the West were rising because of teh West's support of Isreal. We could forsee that an embargo on the part of the Arab oil states could cause prices to skyrocket, but there was no mechanism for building that risk into the price of oil. It was priced by spot price alone which was based soley on how much there was and who wanted to buy it at any given time.

Enter futures trading. With futures trading people can buy contracts for oil delivery as far away as ten years from now. What this means is that people can think, "Okay, there are a lot of problem in the Middle East right now and I forsee a drop in crude oil production or an inability for producers to meet demand at low prices in the future." They can then buy a contract for a month from now, a year from now, five years from now. Someone may think that with all given factors oil at the end of the year will cost $45/barrel. Someone else may think that person is on glue and buy that contract because they think Iran is going to block the strait of Hormuz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Hormuz) and cause a serious world oil shortage that will bring oil to the $200/barrel mark. one of them will be right and one will be wrong, but the point is that what you get is a method of building risk into the price of oil so that you don't have a situation where oil is $9/barrel Tuesday and $85/barrel Wednesday.

*snip*
Thanks for the summary. It seems to me to be a method of making oil markets more future-oriented and with higher time preferences, which is always good, especially with regard to natural resources.

You do realize how large this country is right? That it would be nearly impossible to create a 'city' at every distance for sustainable growth over an infinite period of time?

And why would that be necessary? You are imagining pretty much the same cities as today, just smaller. That's not what I'm talking about.

Affordable housing in city centers that are not 'single units?' Have you seen how large our skyscapers are and how many people we can fit to live in such a small space?

Yes, the only solutions are giant skyscrapers or flat megacities. :rolleyes:
What about mixed purpose medium density areas where people can live and work? Oh, and New York is not the only city out there, just so you know.

We have used an incredible amount of sky to create more and more housing and it does not eleviate the problem. Perhaps you are suggesting we build "city states" the size of small European countries in order to maintain order. We would like to have at least some suburban and rural areas left.

You are being totally incoherent. I believe you just have no idea of the issues and the potential solutions or just to cover your eyes and blame something else because "the way we've always done it is the best way there's ever been".


MTA in most major cities is just fine, but not everyone can live in that city.

Exactly, start asking yourself why. Why is it that in most major cities in the US people millions of people have to live so far from where the jobs are? Is it a real need or has it been created through political and market decisions? Are there other cities in the world that have made something different?


Therefor this "sprawl" creates the need to find more housing outside of the metro area. The only way for your 'plan' to work is to expand the cities to cover entire states.

No, that's the only way you can see it working. Perhaps because for you the only model of a city is NYC, but it is far from being so. As great as NYC is it has also been a victim of bad decisions. Stop thinking that every housing unit must be either a cramped apartment or a 600sq.m. house. Stop thinking that financial and business centers must be housed in skyscrapers far away from where people live and that commercial areas must be gigantic malls.

Almost every modern urbanist agrees that the traditional model for a US city is unworkable and that mixed developments where people can live, shop and work are the ideal and the small sacrifices that have to be made in terms of living areas are easily compensated by the savings in time and quality of life.

But most people in the US, like yourself, believe that the uninhabited city core surrounded by enormous sprawl is the only way to live. I feel very sorry for those people.

Because it's made from dead baby extract. Dead babies are an expensive source of fuel.