NationStates Jolt Archive

http://today.reuters.com/TV/VideoStory.aspx?storyid=d55648a673e24667abe141f885e6298332433a56&src=rss&type=video_OddlyEnough

I think I want one, maybe I wouldn't get a sunburn. :cool:

What do you guys think?

Apparently, difficult to swim in. Drowning is bad.

Maybe you want a wet suit.

The burqini has allowed Laalaa and a handful of other Muslim women to train with Australia's century-old lifesaving squad, though it does make it harder to swim than in a Western bathing suit.

"It's the biggest hurdle the girls face," said Tony Coffey, who trains the lifeguards. "But we can't do anything about it, it's part of the deal. They just need more intensive training."

damn! i've been meaning to post this all day.

i have to say, i never really considered the issue of beach wear for muslim women, i guess it's something you'd never really think about unless you were a muslim woman and it was a warm sunny day. it's a good solution i think, far better than the alternatives, segregated beaches or no beaches at all. as the designer said, they can be good for anyone who wants to cover up too.

damn! i've been meaning to post this all day.

No, if you're the first to post something like this, they'll say you're a racist who hates brown skinned people.

No, if you're the first to post something like this, they'll say you're a racist who hates brown skinned people.

how so? i said it was a good idea :confused: . you think someone was going to call smunkee racist for posting this?? i mean maybe this article has racist undertones, i don't know, haven't read it, but i found the story on the bbc and it certainly wasn't a racist story there.

No, if you're the first to post something like this, they'll say you're a racist who hates brown skinned people.Only if people think you're another reincarnation of Whispering Legs.

Didn't we invent this a long ass time ago? (http://www.bikiniscience.com/chronology/1700-1900_SS/E188101_S/E188101_J/E18810101.JPG)

Only if people think you're another reincarnation of Whispering Legs.

Goddamn it! Who are all these names?

Didn't we invent this a long ass time ago? (http://www.bikiniscience.com/chronology/1700-1900_SS/E188101_S/E188101_J/E18810101.JPG)

i don't have permission to access that page :(

Did the reporter say "countries such as Dubai"?!

well there UV proof which is good and they don't look half bad (certainly better to look at than old men with tight Speedos:p )

how so? i said it was a good idea :confused: . you think someone was going to call smunkee racist for posting this?? i mean maybe this article has racist undertones, i don't know, haven't read it, but i found the story on the bbc and it certainly wasn't a racist story there.

:confused: I said I wanted one.......I like them.

Apparently, difficult to swim in. Drowning is bad.

Maybe you want a wet suit.

Of for the love of ***(*).

What next? I demand you respect my right to wear Jedi robes while saving a drowning man!

Are these life guards going to save men? Because grabbing a scantily clad male and putting your lips on their's doesn't sound like typical muslim modesty. Heck, it doesn't even look all that a modest a swimsuit.

That said... meh. Intergration is good. If they can do the job then let them do the job and wear the suit.

Of for the love of ***(*).

What next? I demand you respect my right to wear Jedi robes while saving a drowning man!

Are these life guards going to save men? Because grabbing a scantily clad male and putting your lips on their's doesn't sound like typical muslim modesty. Heck, it doesn't even look all that a modest a swimsuit.

That said... meh. Intergration is good. If they can do the job then let them do the job and wear the suit.It's more difficult to swim in than a western bathing suit. I doubt its more difficult to swim in than in a wetsuit.

:confused: I said I wanted one.......I like them.

i know, i don't know what eve was getting at :confused:

i don't have permission to access that page :(
Bah, just got to the url line and hit return. It's better to ask forgiveness than it is to ask permission...

i know, i don't know what eve was getting at :confused:

I was saying that they are apparently difficult to swim in.

Unlike a wet suit, they look like they would absorb water quite readily.

Of for the love of ***(*).

What next? I demand you respect my right to wear Jedi robes while saving a drowning man!

Are these life guards going to save men? Because grabbing a scantily clad male and putting your lips on their's doesn't sound like typical muslim modesty. Heck, it doesn't even look all that a modest a swimsuit.

That said... meh. Intergration is good. If they can do the job then let them do the job and wear the suit.
I agree with this. If they are able to perform their job satisfactorily wearing these outfits, then that's fine by me. I may think it's silly and sad for human beings to be so obsessed with covering their bodies that they will hamper their own ability to function, but I think a lot of things are silly and yet should be legal and acceptable in public.

Looks like a good idea. Huzzah for entrepreneurship.

I agree with this. If they are able to perform their job satisfactorily wearing these outfits, then that's fine by me. I may think it's silly and sad for human beings to be so obsessed with covering their bodies that they will hamper their own ability to function, but I think a lot of things are silly and yet should be legal and acceptable in public.

Assuming that it is silly and sad to want to cover up is quite the value judgment. Certainly if one is made to feel that they must, even desiring not to cover up, that is one thing. But ridiculing people who would actually want to cover up is quite another.

What next? I demand you respect my right to wear Jedi robes while saving a drowning man!

well if your good enough you can (pirate Jedi's?)

Are these life guards going to save men? Because grabbing a scantily clad male and putting your lips on their's doesn't sound like typical muslim modesty. Heck, it doesn't even look all that a modest a swimsuit.

oh dear this thread didn't last the first page :(

I was saying that they are apparently difficult to swim in.

Unlike a wet suit, they look like they would absorb water quite readily.

And wouldn't they get...um...clingy after being in the water? I imagine the results wouldn't be all that modest, really.

I was saying that they are apparently difficult to swim in.

Unlike a wet suit, they look like they would absorb water quite readily.

you said i'd be considered racist if i'd posted this story first.

Didn't we invent this a long ass time ago? (http://www.bikiniscience.com/chronology/1700-1900_SS/E188101_S/E188101_J/E18810101.JPG)

i don't have permission to access that page :(

That's how long ago they were invented.

And wouldn't they get...um...clingy after being in the water? I imagine the results wouldn't be all that modest, really.

They have two variants on their website (where they sell these). Slim fit and Modest fit.

Modest fit is the loose baggy one. I'm not sure, but the fabric might not be too clingy, even when wet.

Assuming that it is silly and sad to want to cover up is quite the value judgment. Certainly if one is made to feel that they must, even desiring not to cover up, that is one thing. But ridiculing people who would actually want to cover up is quite another.
Yes, it is a value judgment. I make lots of those. So? I specifically said that it was what I think about their choice. I do think that. I think it's silly. I'm not "assuming that it is silly and sad to want to cover up," I am assuming that I personally find it sad and silly. Whether or not something is sad or silly is 100% subjective, and I'm as entitled to evaluate it as anybody else. We all have our own opinions.

I also think capri pants are silly. I think smoking cigs is silly. I think it's silly to believe that you are a magical fairy. I think lots of things are silly.

As I said before, I don't necessarily advocate the banning of things that are silly. I don't publicly embarrass people for simply choosing to be silly, because I know that I'm silly sometimes and I don't like to be embarrassed.

I'm not "ridiculing" anybody. I'm sharing my personal opinion about a particular belief. Learn the difference.

Welcome to the 1920's. Maybe they'll "invent" flappers next.

I agree with this. If they are able to perform their job satisfactorily wearing these outfits, then that's fine by me. I may think it's silly and sad for human beings to be so obsessed with covering their bodies that they will hamper their own ability to function, but I think a lot of things are silly and yet should be legal and acceptable in public.

Assuming that it is silly and sad to want to cover up is quite the value judgment. Certainly if one is made to feel that they must, even desiring not to cover up, that is one thing. But ridiculing people who would actually want to cover up is quite another.

I cover up at the beach only to spare the mere mortals who might wander by the pain of being blinded by my radiant beautiousness. :p Nothing worse than having the police come by and complain that they've had to take several dozen people to the hospital. They seem to think it's my fault.

I agree with Bottle that regarding the human form as something that should be covered up is silly and sad, but Neesika does have a point, they shouldn't be ridiculed if that's what they want to do (which I think Bottle addressed in her reply). And if it keeps Our Smunkee from getting a bad sunburn, I'm for it.

Welcome to the 1920's. Maybe they'll "invent" flappers next.

Muslims have made it to the 20's? :cool: Better than being stuck in the 8th century.

And if it keeps Our Smunkee from getting a bad sunburn, I'm for it.

:p

I really am limited in the summer because my skin is so messed up. I even get sunburns in the winter :( (yeah I know there are always UV rays)

http://today.reuters.com/TV/VideoStory.aspx?storyid=d55648a673e24667abe141f885e6298332433a56&src=rss&type=video_OddlyEnough

I think I want one, maybe I wouldn't get a sunburn. :cool:

What do you guys think?but how does it look once it's wet. you know... Soaked, and clinging to every curve of the body as...

it's...



dripping...



:eek:



'scuse me...

:p

I really am limited in the summer because my skin is so messed up. I even get sunburns in the winter :( (yeah I know there are always UV rays)

I tend to fry, too, it comes from being descended from people who lived on those islands off the north coast of Europe where it rains all the time. ("Is there no sun in this country?")

I do think you could come up with something a little more stylish, though. I mean, I'd as soon designate some jeans and shirts as my swim attire and go with that rather than the rather lumpish looking outfit in the video. Then again, I'll never be on anyone's Best Dressed list, either, so ...

And yeah, some people get burned in the winter, too. We see that here in Colorado, skiers get seriously burned and sometimes just from the reflection off the snow.

I'm not "ridiculing" anybody. I'm sharing my personal opinion about a particular belief. Learn the difference.

You absolutely are ridiculing people by making the assumption and declaration that in your opinion only silly, sad people would ever want to cover up. Is Smunkee silly and sad? Or are you going to say, 'it's just my opinion Smunkee that you are silly and sad...but go ahead, I'm not actually making a value judgment about your silly and sad self".

It's you being offensive by not contemplating that there might be other motivations that are not quite as based in self-hatred or generally silliness. Learn the difference.

I tend to fry, too, it comes from being descended from people who lived on those islands off the north coast of Europe where it rains all the time. ("Is there no sun in this country?")

I do think you could come up with something a little more stylish, though. I mean, I'd as soon designate some jeans and shirts as my swim attire and go with that rather than the rather lumpish looking outfit in the video. Then again, I'll never be on anyone's Best Dressed list, either, so ...

I swim in jeans and a shirt now (with a bikini top under the shirt) maybe this wouldn't be so heavy LOL

I actually avoid swimming as much as I can, unless it's indoors.

you said i'd be considered racist if i'd posted this story first.
Yes, and that's true as well.

I swim in jeans and a shirt now (with a bikini top under the shirt) maybe this wouldn't be so heavy LOL

I actually avoid swimming as much as I can, unless it's indoors.

Go skinny dipping at night.

Go skinny dipping at night.

and get arrested? no thanks.

Yes, and that's true as well.

Except that in three pages no one has called Smunkee racist...

Except that in three pages no one has called Smunkee racist...

That's because she's Smunkee!

http://today.reuters.com/TV/VideoStory.aspx?storyid=d55648a673e24667abe141f885e6298332433a56&src=rss&type=video_OddlyEnough

I think I want one, maybe I wouldn't get a sunburn. :cool:

What do you guys think?

I usually keep my mouth shut about things like this or just share my opinions with friends but this is 1) online 2) I'm bored 3) too ridiculous to pass up.

These people are going to save lives and these suits make it harder. The responsible thing to do, if you want to be a lifesaver (noone's forcing you), would be to do your best to maximize your capabilities.

Besides, it's primitive to consider body as a "sin". And:



Aussies: Racism is Repulsive, but so is Self-Loathing
A different opinion on the need for more multiculturalism in Australia:

YESTERDAY a colleague emailed me from New York. The young lawyer - her family lives in Brighton-Le-Sands, a bayside suburb north of Cronulla in Sydney - wrote: "While I agree there is no justifying excuse for the violence and breakdown in order that occurred at Cronulla, it needs to be put in context. Unless you live in an area like Cronulla, Brighton-Le-Sands or Bondi, you have no idea what it is like to have one's suburb regularly inundated with large groups of young Muslim men from the western suburbs who proceed to shoot people [as has happened in Brighton], intimidate people, regularly threaten people within their vicinity with violence, drive around in large groups screaming abuse at people from cars with their music blaring, regularly brawling, etc."

This young woman recounted that all of the girls in her family (except the youngest) have been "subject to harassment inflicted by groups of these men - comments on our appearances, racist comments on our Australian background, unwanted touching, being followed while walking home by groups of men in cars (I was once followed all the way home - have never been so scared in my life), sexually explicit remarks while alone, with friends or with boyfriends, unwanted called-out invitations to have sex with groups of them, etc".

Someone please tell Bob Brown. If ever you needed confirmation that the Greens senator is a disconnected, fringe politician who needs to spend time in Cronulla, it came yesterday when he blamed the appalling violence in Sydney's southern shire on John Howard for having "mired the issue of racism in Australia".

Suggesting that the nation is swamped by racists, that ordinary Australians need some fine moral instruction from the likes of Brown, is just the latest adaptation of the David Williamson school of thought that treats ordinary Australians with disdain. It's a form of elitist self-loathing that gets us nowhere in explaining why thousands of people descended on to the streets of Cronulla in apparent retaliation against the attack on two surf lifesavers by men of Middle Eastern descent.

http://bastiatsaysno.blogspot.com/2005/12/aussies-racism-is-repulsive-but-so-is.html

If some muslim women will wear these to be "modest", some muslim man may think that non-muslim clothing is not "modest". And to an extent, this may justify unacceptable behavior towards women in the eyes of some muslims.

Why did these people move to Australia? If they dont want to integrate, then they shouldnt stay. There are rich muslim countries like UAE and Saudi Arabia afterall, with lots of job opportunities...

and get arrested? no thanks.

I wouldn't call the police.

You can always come over to our house, we have a pool in back. Swimming nude in your own pool is legal here.

I wouldn't call the police.

You can always come over to our house, we have a pool in back. Swimming nude in your own pool is legal here.

interesting.........

interesting.........

If you have a "privacy fence" that meets the height requirement (6 ft), then anyone who looks "over" the fence is violating your privacy, even if their house overlooks your property.

It's no longer your problem if you swim nude, and they get offended. They shouldn't be looking if they don't like it.

Why did these people move to Australia? If they dont want to integrate, then they shouldnt stay. There are rich muslim countries like UAE and Saudi Arabia afterall, with lots of job opportunities...

I do a lot of things for my religion that aren't "normal" around here, nobody wants to deport me.

Except that in three pages no one has called Smunkee racist...because Smunkee didn't make any racist comment. she didn't focus on the group but the innovation.

that and... while I can only speak for myself, I got distracted by the image of smunkee in one of those... :D

I do a lot of things for my religion that aren't "normal" around here, nobody wants to deport me.

Like you are a doctor and your religion bans you to run, so you loose time when an emergency patient comes in?

http://today.reuters.com/TV/VideoStory.aspx?storyid=d55648a673e24667abe141f885e6298332433a56&src=rss&type=video_OddlyEnough

I think I want one, maybe I wouldn't get a sunburn. :cool:

What do you guys think?

Jesus, you think that reporter could be a little more enthusiastic?

I imagine there will be a fatwa condemning these from a cleric on one of the more fundamentalist countries before too long--assuming there isn't one already.

I imagine there will be a fatwa condemning these from a cleric on one of the more fundamentalist countries before too long--assuming there isn't one already.

Only telling them that mouth to mouth breathing will be punished by death.

http://www.modestapparelchristianclothinglydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com/modest_swimwear.gif

You gotta love the url....

http://www.modestapparelchristianclothinglydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com/

What must be the longest domain name ever....and one that makes absolutely no sense to me...

But you gotta admire the enthusiasm!

http://www.modestapparelchristianclothinglydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com/modest_swimwear.gif

You gotta love the url....

http://www.modestapparelchristianclothinglydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com/

What must be the longest domain name ever....and one that makes absolutely no sense to me...

But you gotta admire the enthusiasm!:eek: :p

www. modestapparelchristianclothinglydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com

Awesomest domain name ever! Such amazingly bad business sense. *shakes head*

Such amazingly bad business sense. *shakes head*

Not really. The site will appeal very well to its intended demographic.

Not really. The site will appeal very well to its intended demographic.
Sure it will, but is there any demographic that can actually remember it?

Sure it will, but is there any demographic that can actually remember it?

Who needs to remember? Google and Cntrl+D (or apple+D for Mac users). :D

Sure it will, but is there any demographic that can actually remember it?

I imagine so. They'll use fancy things like pencils and paper to write the URL down so they can remember it.

Not really. The site will appeal very well to its intended demographic.

Yep.

Funny that innit?

I agree with [Nag Ehgoeg]. If they are able to perform their job satisfactorily wearing these outfits, then that's fine by me. I may think it's silly and sad for human beings to be so obsessed with covering their bodies that they will hamper their own ability to function, but I think a lot of things are silly and yet should be legal and acceptable in public.
Well said.

I find the entire notion of a "higher being" to be silly. But I accept that some people whole heartedly believe in a god. I'm not lobbying for the banning of religions. I don't think any less of people of faith. I don't ridicule people's beliefs. But in my opinion (consitutionally protected if you live in the US of A), I view it as being silly.
Assuming that it is silly and sad to want to cover up is quite the value judgment. Certainly if one is made to feel that they must, even desiring not to cover up, that is one thing. But ridiculing people who would actually want to cover up is quite another.
I'm not going to mini-mod here. I bearly use these forums. But I think the key point in Bottle's post was "I may think".

He's not definitively coming out and saying "this is fact". He's stating a personal opinion, backed up with a logical qualifier behind his reasoning, then finishing with a non-judgemental approval of people covering up if they want to. He's not swearing, cursing, or being directly offensive. He's stating an opinion.

I may think?
Yes you may.

Who needs to remember? Google and Cntrl+D (or apple+D for Mac users). :D

I imagine so. They'll use fancy things like pencils and paper to write the URL down so they can remember it.

I really doubt anybody would be crazy enough to try and write that thing down.

But eh, alright.

I still say it's no good. *stubborn* :p

You absolutely are ridiculing people by making the assumption and declaration that in your opinion only silly, sad people would ever want to cover up. Is Smunkee silly and sad? Or are you going to say, 'it's just my opinion Smunkee that you are silly and sad...but go ahead, I'm not actually making a value judgment about your silly and sad self".

Do you honestly not know the difference between a belief and a person?

There are plenty of very nice, intelligent, wonderful people in the world who happen to hold one or more silly beliefs.

I hold at least a few silly beliefs. I have, on occasion, been known to do things that are silly and/or stupid. So?

Smunkee may want to wear one of those garments. I happen to think they're silly, and that it is silly to wear hampering clothing when one intends to engage in recreational physical activity, but at the very most that would mean that I believe Smunkee has silly taste on this subject. If Smunkee feels that she must cover her body in hampering clothing to avoid pissing off God, then I think she holds a belief that I would characterize as "sad." (Based on my past experience with Smunkee, I find it unlikely that she does think that way, of course.)

Either way, none of this equates to me believing that Smunkee is a silly person or a sad person.

Of course, I specified that it's silly to wear clothing that hampers one's ability to function just in the name of "modesty," but Smunkee is saying that these garments appeal to her because of her tendency to sunburn. Which means she would be wearing the garment to IMPROVE her ability to function, and would therefore not even be "silly or sad" by my definition at all.


It's you being offensive by not contemplating that there might be other motivations that are not quite as based in self-hatred or generally silliness. Learn the difference.
No, it has to do with me making a value judgment, as I already said. I believe it is silly/sad to choose to wear clothing that impedes the very activity you are supposedly trying to engage in while wearing the clothing.

This includes both "modest" clothing AND "sexy" clothing. For instance, I believe high-heel shoes are generally pretty silly and sad, since they interfere with the individual's ability to walk/run safely. Extended use of said shoes is linked to joint and foot problems and increased risk of injury or mishap while walking/running, when the point of wearing shoes is to protect our feet/legs so that we can better move through the world.

Basically, I think the point of clothing should be to enhance our ability to do things. Clothing also can serve decorative purposes, and I certainly have no problem with that, but I personally believe that we should never allow the decorative function to interfere with the FUNCTIONAL function.

That is my value judgment and my opinion on the subject. You may now drop it.

I really doubt anybody would be crazy enough to try and write that thing down.

But eh, alright.

I still say it's no good. *stubborn* :p

http://www.modestapparelchristianclothinglydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com/family_up_date.htm

maybe they should pick a shorter URL for the page where she is looking to marry off her daughters.

:eek:

Waiting
for a few more good men for son-in-laws.

http://www.modestapparelchristianclothinglydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com/family5.jpg
Sixth daughter
is
19
and always ready.

http://www.modestapparelchristianclothinglydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com/family_up_date.htm

maybe they should pick a shorter URL for the page where she is looking to marry off her daughters.

:eek:



http://www.modestapparelchristianclothinglydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com/family5.jpg

"Sixth daughter is 19 and always ready."?! :eek:

And she's not kidding about the purple dresses, eh?

"Sixth daughter is 19 and always ready."?! :eek:

And she's not kidding about the purple dresses, eh?

Uh...what's she 'always ready' for...sort of belies the 'modest' part...

Uh...what's she 'always ready' for...sort of belies the 'modest' part...
Maybe the purple dresses are a desperate last-ditch effort to make her modest?

Maybe the purple dresses are a desperate last-ditch effort to make her modest?

I don't know, she looks like the rebel of the group, I bet the mom is trying to get rid of her........

"Sixth daughter is 19 and always ready."?! :eek:

Always ready...to be sold into marriage!

19 year old brides, fellows, get them while they're modest!

Maybe the purple dresses are a desperate last-ditch effort to make her modest?

Then informing people that she's always ready kind of defeats the purpose.

Then informing people that she's always ready kind of defeats the purpose.
Don't be silly, of course it does not. With that kind of dress, how else would you know? Sheesh. :rolleyes:

She looks like she just waiting for some cad to whisk her away in his Triumph Dolomite Roadster to a little Inn that he knows down in the village

Always ready...to be sold into marriage!

19 year old brides, fellows, get them while they're modest!
I've not used these forums in a while.

Do posts like "Wins the thread" or "FTW" or "+5 Win" get counted as spam here?

****

On the other hand, it might just be like the Scouting motto "be prepared". Not everything has to be sexual...

I could say you should not mock the afflicted. So I will.

You should not mock the afflicted.

Don't be silly, of course it does not. With that kind of dress, how else would you know? Sheesh. :rolleyes:

This is true.

I tend to fry, too, it comes from being descended from people who lived on those islands off the north coast of Europe where it rains all the time. ("Is there no sun in this country?")

I do think you could come up with something a little more stylish, though. I mean, I'd as soon designate some jeans and shirts as my swim attire and go with that rather than the rather lumpish looking outfit in the video. Then again, I'll never be on anyone's Best Dressed list, either, so ...

Ugh. Wet denim. =(

Personally, I think they're kind of cute. When I go out in the sun, I'm usually worried about working on at least a little bit of a tan, so they wouldn't be for me most of the time, but they actually look like a lot of bathing suits already do - albeit with long pants and sleeves. The "slim fit" ones really don't look like they'd hamper swimming much at all. And the others would hamper swimming much less than going for it in regular clothing.


These people are going to save lives and these suits make it harder. The responsible thing to do, if you want to be a lifesaver (noone's forcing you), would be to do your best to maximize your capabilities.

I doubt they make it that much harder. If a female lifeguard had a huge scar on her leg that she felt more comfortable covering up, and thus had a bathing suit that slightly restricted her movement (without keeping her from doing her job), would you have a problem with it?

If some muslim women will wear these to be "modest", some muslim man may think that non-muslim clothing is not "modest". And to an extent, this may justify unacceptable behavior towards women in the eyes of some muslims.

Well then. In that case, I suppose all women should walk around naked so that nobody will ever get any ideas of modesty in their little heads. :rolleyes:

Why did these people move to Australia? If they dont want to integrate, then they shouldnt stay. There are rich muslim countries like UAE and Saudi Arabia afterall, with lots of job opportunities...

Integration suggests efforts on the part of both "sides", not just one. What you obviously want is assimilation. You think that someone has to be just like you or they shouldn't be there. Luckily, some people are ok with a little diversity...

I doubt they make it that much harder. If a female lifeguard had a huge scar on her leg that she felt more comfortable covering up, and thus had a bathing suit that slightly restricted her movement (without keeping her from doing her job), would you have a problem with it?

That's the thing: if they're able to pass lifeguarding test or whatever, then it's their business what they want to wear (as far as I'm concerned). I only give a shit if they choose to wear something that makes them unable to perform the function they are hired for.


Well then. In that case, I suppose all women should walk around naked so that nobody will ever get any ideas of modesty in their little heads. :rolleyes:

Notice how it is still the responsibility of WOMEN to control what men think and do.

Either way it's BS. If women are ordered to cover up so that men don't have "lustful thoughts," that's bullshit. If women are told that their choice of clothing leads men to assume that OTHER women are "immodest" (and then have "lustful thoughts" about those women) then that's bullshit as well.

Men and women are responsible for their own conduct. Any man who is unable to behave himself around a woman because she's wearing "too much" or "too little" is a man who should be put in Time Out until he grows up enough to function with the minimum of adult decency. Whether or not he's thinking lustful thoughts is his own business.

Integration suggests efforts on the part of both "sides", not just one. What you obviously want is assimilation. You think that someone has to be just like you or they shouldn't be there. Luckily, some people are ok with a little diversity...
Proportional effort.

Muslims can come to our country.
They can practice their religion.
They can recieve our healthcare and social benefits.
They're free to wear what they like and say what they like under our laws of freedom of expression.

Is it too much to ask that they don't wear clothing that impeeds their ability to do a job that effects socioty as a whole? (Or for that matter, not ecourage people to bring death to Westerners...)

Now the vast majority of imegrants from all nations and cultures intergrate just fine. They might cause a little stir while people aclimatise, but in general social groups realise you don't **** where you eat.

Muslim extremists want to change the entire world to fit with them - no give and take unless it's them taking and us giving.

I understand that in the US of A where you guys have guns, you don't tend to have these problems but over here in Blighty gangs of Muslim men terrorising women at night (like in the Austrialian news artical cited) are the least of our concerns with the Muslim Extremist movement.

Here I'd like to point out that I only have a problem with extremists who want to force their faith on secular people. Vast majority of people from all religions I'm fine with.

Diversity is good. I'm a Satanist, I spend most of my time hanging out with Athiests, Agnostics, Christians, Jews, Buddhists and Hindus - none of which campaign to have billboards taken down, or embargos put on fast food vendors (not to mention encourage people to blow themselves up to kill others).

Intergration is a two way street. British Socieoty is doing it's part. Muslim extremists are not.

"Modest dress" (as demanded by the Koran) can be faded jeans, hat and a plain shirt. It doesn't have to be a Burka. I don't see how the Burkini is any more modest than a one piece bathing suit with a wrap, skirt, pair of shorts or pareo.

I don't see how a restrictive Burkini is needed save to mark a lifeguard as "muslim" rather than "a lifeguard".

That's not intergration. That's segregation.

No-one's asking for everyone to be the same. No-one is saying you can't have your own beliefs.

And if the Burkini doesn't interfer with the lifeguard doing their job then sure, wear it, I don't care.

It just seems a lot more sensible to me to wear the conventionally accepted swimwear that is suited to your religious system AND doesn't impeed performance rather than to create a racial boundary.

What do you guys think?

I think its pretty cool actually.

It just seems a lot more sensible to me to wear the conventionally accepted swimwear that is suited to your religious system AND doesn't impeed performance rather than to create a racial boundary.

and if there isn't any?

and if there isn't any?

But there is........

But there is........

where?

Proportional effort.

Muslims can come to our country.
They can practice their religion.
They can recieve our healthcare and social benefits.
They're free to wear what they like and say what they like under our laws of freedom of expression.

Oh, you're so very nice to extend them basic human rights. Obviously, since you're willing to do that, they should conform to your personal beliefs on their religion as well and, even though they can wear what they like, they should dress as you see fit.

Is it too much to ask that they don't wear clothing that impeeds their ability to do a job that effects socioty as a whole? (Or for that matter, not ecourage people to bring death to Westerners...)

If these suits actually made them unable to do the job, they wouldn't be allowed to do the job. You are exaggerating out of control here.

Now the vast majority of imegrants from all nations and cultures intergrate just fine. They might cause a little stir while people aclimatise, but in general social groups realise you don't **** where you eat.

And that stir is usually caused by people like you screaming, "ZOMG! THEY AREN'T JUST LIKE US!! THEY SHOULD GO HOME!!!"

Muslim extremists want to change the entire world to fit with them - no give and take unless it's them taking and us giving.

Indeed. But these are just women who, because of their views on modesty, don't feel comfortable in a normal swimsuit. Does that make them "extremists"?

Hell, I don't feel comfortable in a normal swimsuit. I intentionally look for ones that are more like a tank top and shorts than your general swimsuits.

I understand that in the US of A where you guys have guns, you don't tend to have these problems but over here in Blighty gangs of Muslim men terrorising women at night (like in the Austrialian news artical cited) are the least of our concerns with the Muslim Extremist movement.

What does this have to do with women wearing swimsuits they feel comfortable in?

Here I'd like to point out that I only have a problem with extremists who want to force their faith on secular people. Vast majority of people from all religions I'm fine with.

So, what does this have to do with women wearing swimsuits they feel comfortable in?

Diversity is good. I'm a Satanist, I spend most of my time hanging out with Athiests, Agnostics, Christians, Jews, Buddhists and Hindus - none of which campaign to have billboards taken down, or embargos put on fast food vendors (not to mention encourage people to blow themselves up to kill others).

Right, and what does this have to do with women wearing swimsuits they feel comfortable in?

Intergration is a two way street. British Socieoty is doing it's part. Muslim extremists are not.

So yelling that a woman shouldn't dress as she pleases is "doing your part"? Blaming women who dress as they feel comfortable for men who can't control themselves is "doing your part"?

"Modest dress" (as demanded by the Koran) can be faded jeans, hat and a plain shirt.

Can it? Are you Muhammed? Or are you Allah? Otherwise, you'll have to admit that what *you* consider modest dress and what someone else considers to be modest dress may be very different.

It doesn't have to be a Burka.

In truth, these suits are not very burka-like at all. They're much more similar to a woman who wears hijab, pants, and a long-sleeved shirt. Not that it matters.

I don't see how the Burkini is any more modest than a one piece bathing suit with a wrap, skirt, pair of shorts or pareo.

If you look at modesty as a measure of how much skin is showing, that should be pretty obvious. I know many women who don't consider shorts modest. Personally, the only time you'll ever see me in shorts is when I hiking in the summer-time or at the beach. All other times I wear pants because that is how I feel comfortable. Am I an "extremist"?

I have a friend who chooses to wear hijab, as well as long-sleeved shirts and pants. This is how she wishes to dress. She says nothing to me about my dress and in no way forces her viewpoint upon others (kind of like the women who wish to wear these swimsuits). Is she an "extremist"?

I don't see how a restrictive Burkini is needed save to mark a lifeguard as "muslim" rather than "a lifeguard".

If two different lifeguards wear two different bathings suits, does that keep them both from equally being lifeguards? You are the one who seems to have a problem with being able to tell the lifeguards who feel comfortable showing lots of skin from the ones who don't. Personally, as long as she can save my life if I start drowning, I don't realy care what she's wearing.

That's not intergration. That's segregation.

So, if one lifeguard wears a one-piece bathing suit because she doesn't feel comfortable in a bikini, and the other wears a bikini, are they segregated?

No-one's asking for everyone to be the same. No-one is saying you can't have your own beliefs.

If that were true, you wouldn't have gone on your litle rant about how women shouldn't wear these.

And if the Burkini doesn't interfer with the lifeguard doing their job then sure, wear it, I don't care.

Considering that they are currently in training with it, it quite obviously does not.

It just seems a lot more sensible to me to wear the conventionally accepted swimwear that is suited to your religious system AND doesn't impeed performance rather than to create a racial boundary.

What if there is no "conventionally accepted" swimwear suited to your religious beliefs?

And since when are "religious beliefs" the same thing as "racial boundary"? Are you under the impression that only people of specific ethnicities can hold conservative religious beliefs?

where?

Well, maybe not "conventionally accepted", but there is some here:

http://www.ahiida.com/

=)

Yes, and that's true as well.

That's because she's Smunkee!

i still don't see how it could be construed as racist if i was to post the story. it's about a bleedin swimming costume for fucksake. if someone posted this and then took the piss them maybe someone would call em racist but i can assure you that was not my intention when i wished to post the story. i just thought it was interesting because it was an issue that i had never ever thought about and i was interested in the solution that this woman had come up with.

i still don't see how it could be construed as racist if i was to post the story. it's about a bleedin swimming costume for fucksake. if someone posted this and then took the piss them maybe someone would call em racist but i can assure you that was not my intention when i wished to post the story. i just thought it was interesting because it was an issue that i had never ever thought about and i was interested in the solution that this woman had come up with.

I think Eve may have been pulling your leg just a little. Your 1st post didn't read as racist. And anyway, Our Smunkee can do anything (and probably already has).

Ugh. Wet denim. =(

Personally, I think they're kind of cute. When I go out in the sun, I'm usually worried about working on at least a little bit of a tan, so they wouldn't be for me most of the time, but they actually look like a lot of bathing suits already do - albeit with long pants and sleeves. The "slim fit" ones really don't look like they'd hamper swimming much at all. And the others would hamper swimming much less than going for it in regular clothing. ...

Shows you how long it's been since I've been to a beach. :eek: I suppose wet denim would be a little ... uncomfortable.

where?
Down there:
"Modest dress" (as demanded by the Koran) can be faded jeans, hat and a plain shirt. It doesn't have to be a Burka. I don't see how the Burkini is any more modest than a one piece bathing suit with a wrap, skirt, pair of shorts or pareo.

i still don't see how it could be construed as racist if i was to post the story. it's about a bleedin swimming costume for fucksake. if someone posted this and then took the piss them maybe someone would call em racist but i can assure you that was not my intention when i wished to post the story. i just thought it was interesting because it was an issue that i had never ever thought about and i was interested in the solution that this woman had come up with.*pats IR on the back*
if it makes you feel any better IR, I don't consider your posts Racists.

"Modest dress" (as demanded by the Koran) can be faded jeans, hat and a plain shirt. It doesn't have to be a Burka. I don't see how the Burkini is any more modest than a one piece bathing suit with a wrap, skirt, pair of shorts or pareo.it's more modest than a one piece suit. infact, it seems designed almost like the suits of the 1920's. besides, a wrap, skirt and a pair of shorts is not what one wears when one swims in the ocean. neither is denim. And for some those are not "Modest".

I don't see how a restrictive Burkini is needed save to mark a lifeguard as "muslim" rather than "a lifeguard".

That's not intergration. That's segregation.it's an attempt to open up activities for people without intruding on their sense of modesty. I'm sure the Burkini is not only to be sold to Mulims.

also if non-muslims buy it, and also wear them, then it is a step towards intergration.

http://today.reuters.com/TV/VideoStory.aspx?storyid=d55648a673e24667abe141f885e6298332433a56&src=rss&type=video_OddlyEnough

I think I want one, maybe I wouldn't get a sunburn. :cool:

What do you guys think?They look like a wet suit with a hood.

Talk about niche marketing...Whoever patents that is a guaranteed billionaire or pretty damn close.

They look like a wet suit with a hood.

thats what it look like to me when i saw it

They look like a wet suit with a hood.
I was reminded of those old Star Trek TOS aliens...
http://data.blogg.de/1095900/images/burkini1.jpghttp://pgobeil.com/images/burkini2.jpg


EDIT: when I googled an image of the Burkini... this was the first pic (http://www.uem.es/web/arq/profesores/invitados/Burka.jpg). :D

I doubt they make it that much harder. If a female lifeguard had a huge scar on her leg that she felt more comfortable covering up, and thus had a bathing suit that slightly restricted her movement (without keeping her from doing her job), would you have a problem with it?



The group's trainer, Tony Coffey, says the burqini makes swimming more difficult compared with being dressed in a bikini or swimsuit. "It's the biggest hurdle the girls face. But we can't do anything about it, it's part of the deal. They just need more intensive training."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20070109/wl_csm/oburqini

The responsible thing would be to get ALL the training possible AND not wear this thing and hence maximize your capabilities to save people.


Well then. In that case, I suppose all women should walk around naked so that nobody will ever get any ideas of modesty in their little heads. :rolleyes:


There is the issue of magnitude. Slapping and killing someone are both violence. However they are also different. Not being nude and wearing bikinis is different than ninja/Star Trek clothing.



Integration suggests efforts on the part of both "sides", not just one. What you obviously want is assimilation. You think that someone has to be just like you or they shouldn't be there. Luckily, some people are ok with a little diversity...

Then, yes, I dont want integration as I dont like Islamic culture, to put it kindly.
The diversity that I'd be ok with would be women wearing these for their own entertainment and not in stuff like being lifesavers, provided that muslims also respect "immodest" dressing of non-muslims. However I dont know how realistic that is. Most variants of Western culture is much more successful than Islamic culture at creating a relatively more male/female egalitarian society, as exampled by today's world.

The responsible thing would be to get ALL the training possible AND not wear this thing and hence maximize your capabilities to save people.Why don't lifeguards wear flippers. That would increase their ability to save lives as they could swim faster. All they extra training they would need is how to put them on fast in an emergency and how to run in flippers (backwards).
There is the issue of magnitude. Slapping and killing someone are both violence. However they are also different. Not being nude and wearing bikinis is different than ninja/Star Trek clothing.Pfft. Norms. The Islamic norm is that you hide anything of sexual nature and does not help you to communicate. The western norm is that you don't show your genitalia in public. What's wrong with showing your genitalia? Nothing. It's just a western norm.
Then, yes, I dont want integration as I dont like Islamic culture, to put it kindly.
The diversity that I'd be ok with would be women wearing these for their own entertainment and not in stuff like being lifesavers, provided that muslims also respect "immodest" dressing of non-muslims. However I dont know how realistic that is. Most variants of Western culture is much more successful than Islamic culture at creating a relatively more male/female egalitarian society, as exampled by today's world.I'm too tired to argue against this point, but if I wasn't it would go something along lines of the causal effects of equal rights movements in the west.

EDIT: when I googled an image of the Burkini... this was the first pic (http://www.uem.es/web/arq/profesores/invitados/Burka.jpg). :D

thats still showing too much she end up being stone

EDIT or is that the new thing to use if she good looking at bottom but not at the top

Why don't lifeguards wear flippers. That would increase their ability to save lives as they could swim faster. All they extra training they would need is how to put them on fast in an emergency and how to run in flippers (backwards).


They should, if it helps.


Pfft. Norms. The Islamic norm is that you hide anything of sexual nature and does not help you to communicate. The western norm is that you don't show your genitalia in public. What's wrong with showing your genitalia? Nothing. It's just a western norm.


So? Just because they are norms, one isnt preferable to other?


I'm too tired to argue against this point, but if I wasn't it would go something along lines of the causal effects of equal rights movements in the west.

So? Why arent equal rights movements in Islamic world having the same effect? One of the reasons would be their culture.

thats still showing too much she end up being stone

EDIT or is that the new thing to use if she good looking at bottom but not at the top
and the humor is lost. :p

and the humor is lost. :p

no just a slow day i got it now but you could fell it up with pot smoke an get stoned that way ,i have seen people use a gasmask that way

Sixth daughter
is
19
and always ready.

Does anyone else feel that reads similarly to an "adult" website or magazine?

Does anyone else feel that reads similarly to an "adult" website or magazine?

then that i have seen it and read it mmmm just a bit

Shows you how long it's been since I've been to a beach. :eek: I suppose wet denim would be a little ... uncomfortable.

Yeah, I *hate* wet denim.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20070109/wl_csm/oburqini[/url]

The responsible thing would be to get ALL the training possible AND not wear this thing and hence maximize your capabilities to save people.

If they can match everyone else in these outfits, there's nothing irresponsible about it.

Besides, I'm not exactly going to take the word of a guy who has never worn these suits (or, most likely, any female bathing suit at all) that they are somehow harder. It could be that the girls haven't had much experience with swimming (not having had appropriate bathing suits and all) and thus need to work harder.


There is the issue of magnitude. Slapping and killing someone are both violence. However they are also different. Not being nude and wearing bikinis is different than ninja/Star Trek clothing.

Oh, I see. No one can wear more or less than you say so.

Then, yes, I dont want integration as I dont like Islamic culture, to put it kindly.

At least you admit you're a bigot.

The diversity that I'd be ok with would be women wearing these for their own entertainment and not in stuff like being lifesavers, provided that muslims also respect "immodest" dressing of non-muslims.

So they can dress that way all they like, as long as they stay at home like good little women and don't take jobs where it might bother you. :rolleyes:

However I dont know how realistic that is. Most variants of Western culture is much more successful than Islamic culture at creating a relatively more male/female egalitarian society, as exampled by today's world.

A truly egalitarian society wouldn't be telling women that they have to undress to fit in. If they feel more comfortable being covered, so be it.

http://today.reuters.com/TV/VideoStory.aspx?storyid=d55648a673e24667abe141f885e6298332433a56&src=rss&type=video_OddlyEnough

I think I want one, maybe I wouldn't get a sunburn. :cool:

What do you guys think?
Damn, i knew i forgot to do something.
Make this topic.

Some Muslisms over here want somewhere to swim and expect the greater public to pay for it because they aren't comfortable showing their bodies in public.
They also find the idea of Public changing rooms to be evil.
If they want their own pools they can pay for them with their own money.

Ughh. Pathetic.

http://today.reuters.com/TV/VideoStory.aspx?storyid=d55648a673e24667abe141f885e6298332433a56&src=rss&type=video_OddlyEnough

I think I want one, maybe I wouldn't get a sunburn. :cool:

What do you guys think?

I think it's a good idea. It looks like something like that might make me feel a lot safer if I ever did go to the beach (I've been before, but it's been years, even though the beach is maybe 20-30 miles away.) It'd be a lot simpler than having to buy a whole bunch of different things to cover the same amount of skin, anyway.

I think it's nice to allow Muslim women to enjoy some of the other things non-Muslim women do without sacrificing their own customs. Hopefully one day being different won't attract so much attention and people will just shrug at all the differences.

I think it's nice to allow Muslim women to enjoy some of the other things non-Muslim women do without sacrificing their own customs. Hopefully one day being different won't attract so much attention and people will just shrug at all the differences.

QFT. This is one step amongst an entire, um, bunch of steps. An entire promenade. An entire walk. (Hrmph, you get the picture)

I want one! yes, against the sun and so I feel less insecure about my body when going swimming.

I want one! yes, against the sun and so I feel less insecure about my body when going swimming.

Why do you care what other people think about your body?

I think it's nice to allow Muslim women to enjoy some of the other things non-Muslim women do without sacrificing their own customs. Hopefully one day being different won't attract so much attention and people will just shrug at all the differences.

:fluffle: Cetlund and I were so worried about you, are you okay? do you have power? (stupid question) are you warm? do you want me to come get you? are you stuck in the house? do you need food? *passes out*

there is more coming in this weekend I hear........

Damn, i knew i forgot to do something.
Make this topic.

Some Muslisms over here want somewhere to swim and expect the greater public to pay for it because they aren't comfortable showing their bodies in public.
They also find the idea of Public changing rooms to be evil.
If they want their own pools they can pay for them with their own money.

What does any of this have to do with the price of eggs in China?

If they can match everyone else in these outfits, there's nothing irresponsible about it.

Besides, I'm not exactly going to take the word of a guy who has never worn these suits (or, most likely, any female bathing suit at all) that they are somehow harder. It could be that the girls haven't had much experience with swimming (not having had appropriate bathing suits and all) and thus need to work harder.


It's not rocket science. Especially the baggy "modest" version should produce more friction with water than bikinis.


Oh, I see. No one can wear more or less than you say so.


No you dont see. I never said I was against people being naked. I just said that all women dont have to be naked so that "nobody will ever get any ideas of modesty in their little heads".


At least you admit you're a bigot.


No, you just admitted the limits of your vocabulary. OED defines bigot:

"noun a person who is prejudiced in their views and intolerant of the opinions of others."

Not liking something doesnt equal being prejudiced. Just because I dont like bacon doesnt mean I'm prejudiced. About tolerance part, that's relative. People who are intolerant of the opinions of some pedophiles are not biggotted. Similarly, I'm intolarent of the idea of people wearing silly clothes which might hamper saving of human lives. I'm not intolerant of the idea that they will wear it on occasions which doesnt affect other people. However, being not intolerant doesnt equal that I respect that choice. I just respect the right to make that choice.



So they can dress that way all they like, as long as they stay at home like good little women and don't take jobs where it might bother you. :rolleyes:


No, they dont have to "stay at home like good little women". I wont have any problem if those women pose in their "beach clothes" to some Islamic calendar. I just dont want them to take jobs where it concerns human life.
And I wouldnt make a sentence such as "little women, in homes, etc...". That just shows YOUR bigotry and perhaps explains your support for such a primitive dressing code which is clearly sexist.


A truly egalitarian society wouldn't be telling women that they have to undress to fit in. If they feel more comfortable being covered, so be it.

No, a truly egalitarian society would be where women dont have to cover up to be "modest". I would perfectly respect people who wear these burkinis for reasons such as health (to block sun), provided they are not lifesavers or something of that sort, but not for reasons such as to fullfill a primitive patriarchal dress code.

Why do you care what other people think about your body?
Because they comment and because I am easy to anger and if people gloat, things can get violent...

Goddamn it! Who are all these names?

the usual targets of frantic witch hunts

It's not rocket science. Especially the baggy "modest" version should produce more friction with water than bikinis.

Maybe less, actually. If the material is smooth, there would be less friction over the material than there would be on skin and hair.

No you dont see. I never said I was against people being naked.

No, but you do seem to think that you should dictate a dress code for others.

No, you just admitted the limits of your vocabulary. OED defines bigot:

"noun a person who is prejudiced in their views and intolerant of the opinions of others."

Indeed. Fits the way you're talking to a tee.

Not liking something doesnt equal being prejudiced.

It does when you wish to treat people differently because of not liking it.

Similarly, I'm intolarent of the idea of people wearing silly clothes which might hamper saving of human lives.

You have no reason whatsoever to believe that it will do any such thing.


I just dont want them to take jobs where it concerns human life.

...even if they complete the training and are therefore just as good at saving lives as everyone else who has the job.

And I wouldnt make a sentence such as "little women, in homes, etc...". That just shows YOUR bigotry and perhaps explains your support for such a primitive dressing code which is clearly sexist.

Yes, the fact that I abhor phrases such as that and the people who would make them means that I am a bigot.

I don't support any dress code. I support individual choice on how to dress. You are the one suggesting that we have a "more naked" dress code.

No, a truly egalitarian society would be where women dont have to cover up to be "modest".

....but can if they so choose - without derision from the peanut gallery.

I would perfectly respect people who wear these burkinis for reasons such as health (to block sun), provided they are not lifesavers or something of that sort, but not for reasons such as to fullfill a primitive patriarchal dress code.

So you, unlike me, think that people should live according to your standards instead of to their own.

It's not rocket science. Especially the baggy "modest" version should produce more friction with water than bikinis.The issue of drag is, well, not an issue. The amount of drag a swimming costume will create will only be significant on olympic level. Indeed, male lifeguards are allowed to wear baggy shorts. This, if we go by your argument, would be the equivalent to driving with your windows down. Whilst speed is an important aspect of lifeguard it also has to be tempered by the person's perceptions, knowledge of tides and currents (you could be the fastest swimmer in the world, but you haven't a chance if you're trying to swim against a riptide), first aid proficiency, and being trained in life saving swimming techiniques.No you dont see. I never said I was against people being naked. I just said that all women dont have to be naked so that "nobody will ever get any ideas of modesty in their little heads".You strongly implied it when I suggested the preferences to how people dress are normative and not objective. You claimed one was preferable, and since you had been arguing for minimalist swim wear, but not nudity it is easy to discern your preference.Pfft. Norms. The Islamic norm is that you hide anything of sexual nature and does not help you to communicate. The western norm is that you don't show your genitalia in public. What's wrong with showing your genitalia? Nothing. It's just a western norm.So? Just because they are norms, one isnt preferable to other?No, you just admitted the limits of your vocabulary. OED defines bigot:

"noun a person who is prejudiced in their views and intolerant of the opinions of others."

Not liking something doesnt equal being prejudiced. Just because I dont like bacon doesnt mean I'm prejudiced. About tolerance part, that's relative. People who are intolerant of the opinions of some pedophiles are not biggotted. Similarly, I'm intolarent of the idea of people wearing silly clothes which might hamper saving of human lives. I'm not intolerant of the idea that they will wear it on occasions which doesnt affect other people. However, being not intolerant doesnt equal that I respect that choice. I just respect the right to make that choice.But you are treating people differently. Shaved human skin creates less drag than a swimming suit. Yet, you are prepared to indulge the western woman's norms, but not the Muslim woman's norms.No, they dont have to "stay at home like good little women". I wont have any problem if those women pose in their "beach clothes" to some Islamic calendar. I just dont want them to take jobs where it concerns human life.
And I wouldnt make a sentence such as "little women, in homes, etc...". That just shows YOUR bigotry and perhaps explains your support for such a primitive dressing code which is clearly sexist.Neither I, nor Dempublicents1 (as already posted), support a dress code. People should be allowed to wear what they wish. If a woman wishes to wear a burkini of her own free will then that is her choice. Not mine, not yours, nor anyone else's choice.No, a truly egalitarian society would be where women dont have to cover up to be "modest". I would perfectly respect people who wear these burkinis for reasons such as health (to block sun), provided they are not lifesavers or something of that sort, but not for reasons such as to fullfill a primitive patriarchal dress code.No, a truly egalitarian society would be where women dont have to cover up to be "modest". I would perfectly respect people who wear these bikinis for reasons such as health (to block sun) [sun burnt genitalia can be very painful], provided they are not lifesavers or something of that sort, but not for reasons such as to fullfill a primitive patriarchal dress code [why is that women showing their breasts is frowned upon, but men showing theirs' is not?].

Men and women are responsible for their own conduct. Any man who is unable to behave himself around a woman because she's wearing "too much" or "too little" is a man who should be put in Time Out until he grows up enough to function with the minimum of adult decency. Whether or not he's thinking lustful thoughts is his own business.

Why, thank you. I actually like the thought of being able to think for myself. I don't need woman's clothing to think for me! Free the oppressed male mind!

www. modestapparelchristianclothinglydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com
That, especially with the 'always ready' quote, gotta be satire, right? Right?

Listen, normally I'mm very tolerant.

But come on, just wear a fucking one-piece and a swim cap. You don't need this...THING.

Maybe less, actually. If the material is smooth, there would be less friction over the material than there would be on skin and hair......You have no reason whatsoever to believe that it will do any such thing....even if they complete the training and are therefore just as good at saving lives as everyone else who has the job.

The issue of drag is, well, not an issue. The amount of drag a swimming costume will create will only be significant on olympic level. Indeed, male lifeguards are allowed to wear baggy shorts. This, if we go by your argument, would be the equivalent to driving with your windows down. Whilst speed is an important aspect of lifeguard it also has to be tempered by the person's perceptions, knowledge of tides and currents (you could be the fastest swimmer in the world, but you haven't a chance if you're trying to swim against a riptide), first aid proficiency, and being trained in life saving swimming techiniques.


How do you know? Who's the most reliable source here? Not you two nor me but the trainer on the news. Not because he's perfectly reliable but he's relatively more reliable than people debating on a forum (unless one of you is in a relevant proffession such as being a swimming coach). And he says:


The group's trainer, Tony Coffey, says the burqini makes swimming more difficult compared with being dressed in a bikini or swimsuit. "It's the biggest hurdle the girls face. But we can't do anything about it, it's part of the deal. They just need more intensive training."


So this means that burqini does make a considerable difference to performance. What I'm saying is that lifesavers should get all the intensive training AND effective material such as not including a burqini in their dress code.


No, but you do seem to think that you should dictate a dress code for others.


Of course, a dress code should be dictated in certain jobs, such as mining and doctors based on practical criterias (ex: mining - protection ).


Indeed. Fits the way you're talking to a tee.


No. You are just using an ad-hominem.


It does when you wish to treat people differently because of not liking it.


Nope, it's your vocabulary again.

"prejudice

• noun 1 preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or experience. 2 unjust behaviour formed on such a basis."

I admit that I'm not quite knowledgeable on Islamic culture, but I know some which is enough for me to form an opinion. If that's not enough for you, you should say that anyone having an opinion on anything in which they didnt receive a doctorate is a bigot, which is ridiculous.

And despite my behaviour is not based on a basis as defined in the first part of OED definition, it's still not unjust because I'm supporting my opinions because I believe it may make a difference in saving human life, not because burqini is muslim.


Since its formation SLSA has been helping to protect and save the lives of the nation's beach-goers, with over 440,000 people rescued.

http://www.culture.gov.au/articles/surflifesaving/

The time period is long but lifesavers saved MANY lives and this job should be taken seriously.


Yes, the fact that I abhor phrases such as that and the people who would make them means that I am a bigot.



I don't support any dress code. I support individual choice on how to dress. You are the one suggesting that we have a "more naked" dress code.



Neither I, nor Dempublicents1 (as already posted), support a dress code. People should be allowed to wear what they wish. If a woman wishes to wear a burkini of her own free will then that is her choice. Not mine, not yours, nor anyone else's choice.


Not really. I wouldnt want a surgeon to be more naked. And you dont support any dress code? You dont think doctors should be forced to wear surgery clothes and not just be let with their jeans?



....but can if they so choose - without derision from the peanut gallery.


How much a choice is that? You dont think some women wear it because of cultural pressures? And accepting women with burqinis or tolerating muslim dress anywhere without any criticism does not strengthen this cultural pressure?



So you, unlike me, think that people should live according to your standards instead of to their own.

Not my standarts. Western standarts. If they want to live in Australia, they should live by its standarts.


You strongly implied it when I suggested the preferences to how people dress are normative and not objective. You claimed one was preferable, and since you had been arguing for minimalist swim wear, but not nudity it is easy to discern your preference.


Is it? Or perhaps you misunderstood me? Or you just assumed? Are you arguing for all possible scenarios when you are making a point? I didnt mention nudity because it was irrelevant in my original post.


But you are treating people differently. Shaved human skin creates less drag than a swimming suit. Yet, you are prepared to indulge the western woman's norms, but not the Muslim woman's norms.


Yes, because Australia is a Western country. And if shaved skin creates less drag, then why do some olympic swimmers wear swimsuits which include tops and longer shorts? So it's not just the surface area of the fabric but also its tightness. And burquini is far from being speedo tight.

And also it's the hydrodynamics. Penis may create more friction, despite being shaved, than swimsuit.


[why is that women showing their breasts is frowned upon, but men showing theirs' is not?].

Neither me nor my friends would frown upon it. Also, I'm sure attitudes towards it are different, on avarage, in Canada and Northern Europe than in USA. Besides, the breaking of norm is frowned upon, maybe. However, in some Islamic countries, you may be jailed (Iran). While not all are that backward, on avarage, women would face more repercussions on breaking the norms in an Islamic country than in a Western country.

And that's a difference that should be preserved. Noone should tolerate any decrease in performance in a critical proffession due to foreign traditions.

How do you know? Who's the most reliable source here? Not you two nor me but the trainer on the news. Not because he's perfectly reliable but he's relatively more reliable than people debating on a forum (unless one of you is in a relevant proffession such as being a swimming coach). And he says:

<quote removed>

So this means that burqini does make a considerable difference to performance. What I'm saying is that lifesavers should get all the intensive training AND effective material such as not including a burqini in their dress code.If they pass a test certifying they are a strong enough swimmer to be a lifeguard whilst wearing a burkini then they are a strong enough swimmer to be a lifeguard. It is not an issue. Or are you questioning the lifeguard trainer's opinion that these women are strong enough swimmers to be lifeguards?
Not really. I wouldnt want a surgeon to be more naked. And you dont support any dress code? You dont think doctors should be forced to wear surgery clothes and not just be let with their jeans?A dress code should not dictate that an employee wear a certain item of clothing, but they take reasonable steps to ensure a certain situation does not happen. eg causing a patient to catch an infection during an operation - there are huge amounts of bacteria caught beneath fingernails, hence a doctor should wear gloves whilst performing an operation. Steps to stop an infection be transmited from a doctor's breath should also be taken. A modified niqab could easily provide such a function.

A lifeguard should be able to swim at a certain speed for a certain amount of time to qualify for the job. If they can do so whilst wearing a burkini then they should be able to do the job whilst wearing a burkini.

In essence you confuse the means with the ends. The end is that a person is up to a suffcient ability to save lives. That is what I argue for. You argue that person should have to wear a certain item of clothing to save lives. You argue for the irrelevant means.Is it? Or perhaps you misunderstood me? Or you just assumed? Are you arguing for all possible scenarios when you are making a point? I didnt mention nudity because it was irrelevant in my original post.Since your reply was so brief and ambiguous, you left a lot to be assumed. And I do not apologise for having to make an assumption. You should be clearer in your posts if you do not want to force others to make assumptions. It is classic spin. You argue a case, you leave a lot to be assumed, and so when someone argues against you all you do is simply claim that you were misunderstood rather than answer the argument.Yes, because Australia is a Western country. And if shaved skin creates less drag, then why do some olympic swimmers wear swimsuits which include tops and longer shorts?Because of western norms. It is unacceptable to show genitalia in public, hence swimming suits are worn. So it's not just the surface area of the fabric but also its tightness. And burquini is far from being speedo tight.
...
And also it's the hydrodynamics. Penis may create more friction, despite being shaved, than swimsuit.As I have already argued this is not a case of being as fast as possible, but fast enough.Neither me nor my friends would frown upon it. Also, I'm sure attitudes towards it are different, on avarage, in Canada and Northern Europe than in USA. Besides, the breaking of norm is frowned upon, maybe. However, in some Islamic countries, you may be jailed (Iran). While not all are that backward, on avarage, women would face more repercussions on breaking the norms in an Islamic country than in a Western country.No... public indeceny is an offence most western countries and can get you landed in jail. But of course in the west it is considered wrong to expose your genitalia in public, hence it is not thought of as backward that people are jailed for such activities.And that's a difference that should be preserved. Noone should tolerate any decrease in performance in a critical proffession due to foreign traditions.And no one is. The bar has not been lowered for these women who wish to wear the burkini. They must still pass the same tests as everyone else. Again you confuse the means and the ends.

Not my standarts. Western standarts. If they want to live in Australia, they should live by its standarts.

Here's a Western Standard for you: Allowing people to wear what they want regardless of your personal opinion of it, its called freedom of expression, try to live up to it will you?

Also, this pretty much annihilates your whole "I'm just looking out for swimmers, I don't object to Hijab clothing at all" facade.

Listen, normally I'mm very tolerant.

But come on, just wear a fucking one-piece and a swim cap. You don't need this...THING.

Do you know how much skin a one-piece shows off? Hell, I'm not a member of any conservative religious denomination and I feel uncomfortable in a one-piece.

How do you know? Who's the most reliable source here? Not you two nor me but the trainer on the news. Not because he's perfectly reliable but he's relatively more reliable than people debating on a forum (unless one of you is in a relevant proffession such as being a swimming coach). And he says:

Note what he doesn't say. He doesn't say that it will, in any way, interfere with them being able to do the job. In fact, he seems to be making it quite clear that they can qualify. Yeah, they might have to work harder than the other women. So what? If they qualify, they qualify.

Of course, a dress code should be dictated in certain jobs, such as mining and doctors based on practical criterias (ex: mining - protection ).

Indeed. But that has nothing to do with you, a person completely outside the profession, dictating things. If a surgeon wanted to wear hijab, and all the other doctors said it wouldn't be an issue, although she might have to work a little harder, and you came in screaming, "ZOMG! SHE WON'T BE ABLE TO SAVE MY LIFE!" who do you think I would listen to?

No. You are just using an ad-hominem.

Maybe you should check on your vocabulary. To be an ad hominem, I'd have to attack your character and not your arguments. And yet, I've shut down pretty much every "argument" you've made.

Nope, it's your vocabulary again.

Nope, it's you trying to justify unjustifiable behavior.

"prejudice

• noun 1 preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or experience. 2 unjust behaviour formed on such a basis."

Sounds pretty much straight up applicable. You are essentially claiming that any woman who would possibly wear such a thing is an evil, evil fundamentalist. You are claiming, contrary to those in the actual profession, that this will make a woman unable to be a lifeguard. And all this just so you can bitch about what a woman may, because of her religious beliefs, wish to wear.

I admit that I'm not quite knowledgeable on Islamic culture, but I know some which is enough for me to form an opinion. If that's not enough for you, you should say that anyone having an opinion on anything in which they didnt receive a doctorate is a bigot, which is ridiculous.

You sound just like someone saying, "I know all about Black Panthers, therefore all black people are the suxxors!" How many conservative Muslims do you know personally?

And despite my behaviour is not based on a basis as defined in the first part of OED definition, it's still not unjust because I'm supporting my opinions because I believe it may make a difference in saving human life, not because burqini is muslim.

No, you're trying to use that as an excuse. Of course, since it is a completely unfounded excuse, one has to look for the real motivation. Considering your diatribes against conservative Muslim dress in general, it's pretty clear where that motivation is.

How much a choice is that? You dont think some women wear it because of cultural pressures? And accepting women with burqinis or tolerating muslim dress anywhere without any criticism does not strengthen this cultural pressure?

I think some women are pressured into it, and yes, that is a problem. Of course, pressuring someone out of it is EQUALLY a problem. I also know for a fact that some women choose such dress for themselves, even when their loved ones don't pressure them or even dress that way themselves.

You seem to have a strong wish to believe that no woman would ever choose this mode of dress for herself, but it simply isn't true. In fact, if you look at the testimonials on the webpage, it is clear that many of the women excited about the new swimwear are recent converts - women who, as adults, have chosen to dress in this manner.

Not my standarts. Western standarts. If they want to live in Australia, they should live by its standarts.

And here I thought Western standards included freedom of expression. I guess Australia must be a bit behind the curve.

Here's a Western Standard for you: Allowing people to wear what they want regardless of your personal opinion of it, its called freedom of expression, try to live up to it will you?

Also, this pretty much annihilates your whole "I'm just looking out for swimmers, I don't object to Hijab clothing at all" facade.

Seriously!

He keeps going from, "I'm just worried that, even though there is no reason to believe this, they won't be able to save my life when I need it," to, "ZOMG, CONFORM!!!!!!!!!" Considering that there is no worry with the former, it would seem that the latter has to be the actual motivation here.

What does any of this have to do with the price of eggs in China?
Muslims would wear the Burkhini
Some Muslims want to change New Zealand to suite themselves or be seclusive.

They should conform.
Yes it is fine if they want to wear their Burkhini, there are Family changing rooms at swiming pools they don't have to get changed with others but objecting to the Public pool system of New Zealand tsk tsk.

And wanting to keep the Burkha on in Driver Licence photos or in court, they really should conform.

http://today.reuters.com/TV/VideoStory.aspx?storyid=d55648a673e24667abe141f885e6298332433a56&src=rss&type=video_OddlyEnough

I think I want one, maybe I wouldn't get a sunburn. :cool:

What do you guys think?


Second that... The lethal dose of sun too contact with me is around 10 minutes, so not a bad idea really.

Muslims would wear the Burkhini

Indeed. And we are discussing the burkini. None of the rest of your prattling on about other issues is relevant.

Although, your whole, "CONFORM!" line is cute. I'm sure you'd love it if they were trying to tell you you must conform to their ideals.

No, if you're the first to post something like this, they'll say you're a racist who hates brown skinned people.

I'm not racist, I hate people of all colors equaly.
Quite a lot acctually.
WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT WHITE BOY!

Why, thank you. I actually like the thought of being able to think for myself. I don't need woman's clothing to think for me! Free the oppressed male mind!

I think much of the discussion about women's "modesty" is deeply insulting to men. People flat-out state that men aren't able to control themselves, that men are incapable of behaving like adults if there's a bit of female skin nearby, and that men need women to be the grown-ups who regulate their behavior for them.

Talk about infantilizing.

I think much of the discussion about women's "modesty" is deeply insulting to men. People flat-out state that men aren't able to control themselves, that men are incapable of behaving like adults if there's a bit of female skin nearby, and that men need women to be the grown-ups who regulate their behavior for them.

Talk about infantilizing.Oh goody. For once I beat you to it.:D

I doubt they make it that much harder. If a female lifeguard had a huge scar on her leg that she felt more comfortable covering up, and thus had a bathing suit that slightly restricted her movement (without keeping her from doing her job), would you have a problem with it? Not to mention that Lifesavers (in Australia, at least) are volunteers, giving their time to save our lives. If they want to do it in a spacesuit it is still one more person out on the beach saving lives. Apart from the benefits to integration, this suit opens up a whole new constituent of society to volunteer work as lifesavers.

Not to mention that Lifesavers (in Australia, at least) are volunteers, giving their time to save our lives. If they want to do it in a spacesuit it is still one more person out on the beach saving lives. Apart from the benefits to integration, this suit opens up a whole new constituent of society to volunteer work as lifesavers.

Quite right.

Of course, if Australians either learned to swim properly or realized that consuming massive amounts of alcohol and then going in the water is a generally bad idea, this wouldn't be such an issue. :p

http://www.modestapparelchristianclothinglydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com/modest_swimwear.gif

You gotta love the url....

http://www.modestapparelchristianclothinglydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com/

What must be the longest domain name ever....and one that makes absolutely no sense to me...

But you gotta admire the enthusiasm!

Really bad domain name & truly awful clothes too. They're onto a winner. :p

Indeed. And we are discussing the burkini. None of the rest of your prattling on about other issues is relevant.

Although, your whole, "CONFORM!" line is cute. I'm sure you'd love it if they were trying to tell you you must conform to their ideals.
Actually it is because they want to swim in a Public pool, the Burkini would be helpful for them in achieving this.
Other muslim swinmming issues are relevant.

Only if people think you're another reincarnation of Whispering Legs.
Such as Sierra BTHP, or Deep Kimchi, or ...... :D

http://today.reuters.com/TV/VideoStory.aspx?storyid=d55648a673e24667abe141f885e6298332433a56&src=rss&type=video_OddlyEnough

I think I want one, maybe I wouldn't get a sunburn. :cool:

What do you guys think?

Hey, good idea! :)

Yes, it is a value judgment. I make lots of those. So? I specifically said that it was what I think about their choice. I do think that. I think it's silly. I'm not "assuming that it is silly and sad to want to cover up," I am assuming that I personally find it sad and silly. Whether or not something is sad or silly is 100% subjective, and I'm as entitled to evaluate it as anybody else. We all have our own opinions.

I also think capri pants are silly. I think smoking cigs is silly. I think it's silly to believe that you are a magical fairy. I think lots of things are silly.

As I said before, I don't necessarily advocate the banning of things that are silly. I don't publicly embarrass people for simply choosing to be silly, because I know that I'm silly sometimes and I don't like to be embarrassed.

I'm not "ridiculing" anybody. I'm sharing my personal opinion about a particular belief. Learn the difference.
I think that it is "silly" for you to deny that you were ridiculing others. :D

I think that it is "silly" for you to deny that you were ridiculing others. :D
Well I sure as hell am ridiculing them now. At first I was just stating my opinion about their personal fashion choices, but now that they've wet themselves over what a meanie I am for having opinions that I actually SAY OUT LOUD...well, now they're just a great big pile of goomba poo!!!

So there.

if it helps Bottle I don't really give a flying donkey what you think about me;)
Which is really too bad for you, since you're one of the few people I don't intend to mock. That's a very exclusive position you're in! :D

Well I sure as hell am ridiculing them now. At first I was just stating my opinion about their personal fashion choices, but now that they've wet themselves over what a meanie I am for having opinions that I actually SAY OUT LOUD...well, now they're just a great big pile of goomba poo!!!

So there.

if it helps Bottle I don't really give a flying donkey what you think about me;)