NationStates Jolt Archive


Elizabeth II, Queen of France?

Anti-Social Darwinism
16-01-2007, 06:14
Papers Show France Eyed Union With Britain
'Bizarre' Find Leaves Scholars Puzzling Over Reason
By RAPHAEL G. SATTER
AP
LONDON (Jan. 15) - Would France have been better off under Queen Elizabeth II?

The revelation that the French government proposed a union of Britain and France in 1956 - even offering to accept the sovereignty of the British queen - has left scholars on both sides of the Channel puzzled.

Newly discovered documents in Britain's National Archives show that former French Prime Minister Guy Mollet discussed the possibility of a merger between the two countries with British Prime Minister Sir Anthony Eden.

"I completely fell off my seat," said Richard Vinen, an expert in French history at King's College in London. "It's such a bizarre thing to propose."

Eden rejected the idea of a union but was more favorable to a French proposal to join the Commonwealth, according to the documents. One document added that Mollet "had not thought there need be difficulty over France accepting the headship of her Majesty (Queen Elizabeth II)."

While the two nations - separated by a thin body of water - have been bitter rivals since the Middle Ages, the two EU partners now concentrate on trading tourists rather than arrows. What animosity remains has been relegated to world culinary name-calling, with the French and British reduced to froggies and rosbifs (roast beef) respectively.

Proposals for Anglo-French unity are not necessarily new. English royalty claimed the title of "King (or Queen) of France" into the 19th century.

Winston Churchill, in a last-ditch attempt to keep France on the side of the Allies in World War II, appealed for a full union of the two nations in June of 1940.

After the war, Ernest Bevin, Britain's foreign secretary, also toyed with the idea of a "Western Union," a European and African bloc led by Britain and France.

The proposals all shared an element of desperation, said Kevin Ruane, a historian at Canterbury Christ Church University, England. "It's so impracticable an idea that it has only been raised in extreme situations," he said.

Threatened by an Arab revolt in French Algeria and hobbled by instability at home, France was desperate to maintain its independence from both the Soviet Union and the United States, Ruane said. Eden, who fought in France during World War I and spoke the language fluently, might have seemed particularly approachable to Mollet, a former English teacher.

But even under the circumstances, the suggestion that France accept the British queen struck historians as bizarre.

Mollet was a Socialist, and left-wing Frenchmen looked to the execution of French King Louis XVI as one of the crowning achievements of the French Revolution. They would have been unlikely to welcome a foreign monarch with open arms. "It must have been some kind of eccentric gesture," Vinen said.

The former French leader's memoirs showed nothing about the proposal, said Francois Lafon, a history professor at La Sorbonne in Paris and a Mollet biographer. Lafon suggested it was probably a political tactic to pressure the British to firm up their role for the imminent attack on Egypt.

A year after Britain turned down France's proposed merger, the French joined the Common Market, the European Union 's predecessor. By the time Britain tried to join seven years later, the tables had turned.

Charles De Gaulle had brought a new order to French political life and largely revived its international standing, even as Britain's economy continued to stagnate. De Gaulle vetoed Britain's attempts to join the European Economic Community - twice.

"In retrospect, the irony of this was that the losers were the British," Vinen said. "Maybe we'd be in a better position being ruled by Charles de Gaulle in 1965 than Harold Wilson."

Not all Frenchmen were so sure.

"Can you imagine?" said Jose-Alain Fralon, author of "Help, the English are invading!" "What would the English tabloids do if they could no longer tell stories about the froggies, and what about those French who blame everything on the English?"

The British, he added, are "our most dear enemies" and "we would lose all of the saltiness in our relationship" had the two countries merged.

Still, he said, the two peoples complement each other marvelously.

"Roast beef and frogs don't go together in the same dish. But frogs legs as a starter and a good roast beef as the main dish - c'est merveilleux," he said.

The documents, which have been declassified for over twenty years, were found by a BBC producer late last month.




This wouldn't have hurt the French any, but I think it would have been a disaster for the English.
Congo--Kinshasa
16-01-2007, 06:16
I think "holy crap" sums it up about nicely. :eek:
Harlesburg
16-01-2007, 06:18
Wasn't that French Primeminister the Socialist Commie one?
Wasn't that soon after Dien ben Phu?
Where the Glorious French Paras got their arse handed to them?
France fails again.
Pyotr
16-01-2007, 06:20
I predict gross amounts of France-bashing in the immediate future.
The Psyker
16-01-2007, 06:22
Wasn't there already a thread on this, not saying their was I just remember something along these lines...or maybe I'm just remembering the bit I heard on the BBC about this?
NSG News24
16-01-2007, 14:20
Wasn't there already a thread on this

Yes. As the OP would know if he/she had checked the news thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=514525). ;)
I V Stalin
16-01-2007, 14:22
Yes. As the OP would know if he/she had checked the news thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=514525). ;)
Ah, shameless plugging. Where would we be without it? :p
Ariddia
16-01-2007, 14:30
left-wing Frenchmen looked to the execution of French King Louis XVI as one of the crowning achievements of the French Revolution.

We did?!


Ah, shameless plugging. Where would we be without it? :p

In a very dull world. :D

Speaking of which, welcome to the team. If you haven't noticed yet, you now have the password.
I V Stalin
16-01-2007, 14:37
Speaking of which, welcome to the team. If you haven't noticed yet, you now have the password.
Cool, thanks. :)
Infinite Revolution
16-01-2007, 15:16
wow, that's pretty mental :eek: . i can't imagine it would have worked though.
Rubiconic Crossings
16-01-2007, 18:32
Is there a link to this story or is it another Onion satire?
Granthor
16-01-2007, 18:35
According to a friend of mine, this was on the TV news last night, so it looks like it is genuine. Would have been amusing had it happened, but I doubt the French would have just say there and said, "So, we are all British now eh?" and given that little Gallic shrug. :P
I V Stalin
16-01-2007, 18:39
Is there a link to this story or is it another Onion satire?

Take a look in the news thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=514525) - there's another thread on this, and there's a link in the OP of the news thread.
Rubiconic Crossings
16-01-2007, 18:45
According to a friend of mine, this was on the TV news last night, so it looks like it is genuine. Would have been amusing had it happened, but I doubt the French would have just say there and said, "So, we are all British now eh?" and given that little Gallic shrug. :P

Like we'd actually want the onion molesters! LOL


IV - Cheers....am checking that out....not sure I see the point of the thread you linked me to though...seems like an invite to gravedig...
I V Stalin
16-01-2007, 18:52
IV - Cheers....am checking that out....not sure I see the point of the thread you linked me to though...seems like an invite to gravedig...
Inactive threads will be taken out of the OP in a couple of days.

Maybe we should put in a warning not to gravedig...
[NS]Trilby63
16-01-2007, 18:52
I doubt it would have worked though I wish a little of the french atitude towards their government would rub off on us british..
Rubiconic Crossings
16-01-2007, 18:57
Inactive threads will be taken out of the OP in a couple of days.

Maybe we should put in a warning not to gravedig...

Yeah...I think the grave dig warning is needed...

but if you are cycling old threads out...unless I am being particularly dense today...what is the point of the ..... Doh....yeah...I am being dense today LOL

(got a telephone interview in a half hour so brain is melting from too much studying for it...if that makes any sense LOL)
Phenixica
16-01-2007, 19:02
I will say this, Omg man OMG.

But it was good they didnt, last thing both of those nations needed after WW2 is a completely new government with diffrent laws and such.

The clutter and all the problems would have completely Stagnated both countries, More so i dont think anybody in 1000 years could see a Union between France and England working. Lets face it they were enemies more the allies most of the time.
Farnhamia
16-01-2007, 20:00
"Now, lords, for France; the enterprise whereof
Shall be to you, as us, like glorious ...
Then forth, dear countrymen: let us deliver
Our puissance into the hand of God,
Putting it straight in expedition.
Cheerily to sea; the signs of war advance:
No king of England, if not king of France."

~ Henry V, Act 2, Scene II

For "king" read "queen." It would have been very interesting to see how that experiment turned out.
Eve Online
16-01-2007, 20:06
I will say this, Omg man OMG.

But it was good they didnt, last thing both of those nations needed after WW2 is a completely new government with diffrent laws and such.

The clutter and all the problems would have completely Stagnated both countries, More so i dont think anybody in 1000 years could see a Union between France and England working. Lets face it they were enemies more the allies most of the time.

It only goes to show that France always considers surrender a viable plan, even if the other country isn't the enemy.
Rubiconic Crossings
16-01-2007, 20:36
It only goes to show that France always considers surrender a viable plan, even if the other country isn't the enemy.

Are you English?
Eve Online
16-01-2007, 20:38
Are you English?

Nope.
Rubiconic Crossings
16-01-2007, 21:13
Nope.

So your beef, so to speak, is?

Just wondering why you made the comment about the French. That is strictly the preserve of the English. Then the Germans.

So if you are going to hurl insults (and an amateurish one at that, I mean really! How many times have we read that!), please ensure you have history on your side.

The 'cheese eating surrender monkey' meme is not only tiresome but also shows a distinct lack of humour.

If you are going to do this I'd suggest maybe thinking of the Sorbonne, De Gaul, Onions, and ridiculous accents. Not in any particular order mind. In fact you can look at many parts of France and the French and see opportune targets aplenty. Sure cheese has its place. If you are really good you can injury to the insult, and this will piss off the French something rotten. In this instance the injury is the fact that Britain produces a large number of varieties of cheese than the French.

I hope I helped!
Eve Online
16-01-2007, 21:16
So your beef, so to speak, is?

Just wondering why you made the comment about the French. That is strictly the preserve of the English. Then the Germans.

The Americans can talk about the surrendering nature of the French, because we've had to help them out a few times...

As I recall, it's the sole preserve of the English to complain about the Dutch...
Rubiconic Crossings
16-01-2007, 21:21
The Americans can talk about the surrendering nature of the French, because we've had to help them out a few times...

As I recall, it's the sole preserve of the English to complain about the Dutch...

And not surprisingly it highlights another sole preserve of the Americans.
The Pacifist Womble
16-01-2007, 21:26
Papers Show France Eyed Union With Britain
'Bizarre' Find Leaves Scholars Puzzling Over Reason
By RAPHAEL G. SATTER
AP
LONDON (Jan. 15) - Would France have been better off under Queen Elizabeth II?

The revelation that the French government proposed a union of Britain and France in 1956 - even offering to accept the sovereignty of the British queen - has left scholars on both sides of the Channel puzzled.

It's quite clear to see why: OMG COMMIES!!!!
Rubiconic Crossings
16-01-2007, 21:45
It's quite clear to see why: OMG COMMIES!!!!

Where? Britain or France?? LOL
New Albor
16-01-2007, 23:40
Well, considering the English Monarchy from 1066 until the end of the Plantagenet Dynasty had a distinctly French character to it (I am sure every one across the pond knows how long Richard I spend in England), I am not surprised at the idea...

I, for one, am thankful for our French allies. Without them, the US War of Independence would have been just another rebellion. (Even if the British were tired of the war and really wanted to focus on India). The victory at Yorktown would not have happened without the French. I know this is a what-have-you-done-for-me-2-seconds-ago culture these days, but many of us do not forget the legacy of French assistance, even if our relations have been soiled in recent years.
Ariddia
17-01-2007, 00:04
I know this is a what-have-you-done-for-me-2-seconds-ago culture these days, but many of us do not forget the legacy of French assistance

Thank you. Nor have the French forgotten all those who have helped us, including Americans and Brits.