NationStates Jolt Archive

Below you is a transcript of a convo I had with a priest today on MSN. The only editing done is to correct spelling and grammar for understanding.

Oh yeah. I actually met him off an Islam site that Soviestan and myself are on. I'm there trying to build bridges, but this man is cleary wanting to burn the bridges and anyone not catholic.


-note- this is only about half of the convo, because I didn't get a chance to
copy the first part.


(Him)Fr. Bonucci says:
learn ancient greek
Fr. Bonucci says: John's letters
Fr. Bonucci says:If you want to comprehend the bible
Fr. Bonucci says:the cathoic church doctrine is based
Fr. Bonucci says:on the original languages of the bible
Fr. Bonucci says:why are you so arrogant that you think God has chosen you above
Fr. Bonucci says:1.1 billion souls that follow the church
(me)Thomas says:Hahahah. I am not arrogant. And I don't think he has "chosen me above" anyone. I am just a lowly man, that follows his servant, not any other lowly man, as your religion would have one do

(he was quoting something I said on that other forum, in response to his praising of the pope)
Fr. Bonucci says:Why do you make a man the head of the church? Doesn't that take away from christ being the head of the church? You trust in man, where as psalm 118 clearly states to not put trust in man, but rather in God.
Fr. Bonucci says:
christ is the church in the blessed sacrament
Fr. Bonucci says:the pope is the visible head a representative
Fr. Bonucci says:christ is the true head of the church
Fr. Bonucci says:You must realise islam is closer to catholicism.
Fr. Bonucci says:then protestantism
Fr. Bonucci says:as we created that foul religion
Thomas says:which is a foul religion?
Fr. Bonucci says:islam
Thomas says:its people like you that I have fought all my short life. Calling people foul and preverse. Did Christ use those words to win souls for his kingdom? You see, your elitism, much like many of my contemporaries here in america, drive away people from the kingdom of God. Their blood is on your hands.
Fr. Bonucci says:no
Fr. Bonucci says:no your
Fr. Bonucci says:arrogance in your own belief
Fr. Bonucci says:drives people to prostentism
This is where it gets crazy
Fr. Bonucci says:where they will go to the gates of hell
Fr. Bonucci says:what you do not realise
Fr. Bonucci says:is the church will soon occupy
Fr. Bonucci says:Your lands
Fr. Bonucci says:You are diverted in america by islam
Fr. Bonucci says:but a book pubished in your county
Fr. Bonucci says:catholic power vs american freedom is truer than u think
Fr. Bonucci says:the church always infiltrates in order to save souls
-later on-
Thomas says:So you mean to say, even if they accept the gift of Christ, that if they are not catholic, they will end up in hell?
Fr. Bonucci says:the lesser of two evils
Fr. Bonucci says:Your education and free thinking has condemned u
Fr. Bonucci says:You cannot accept authourity
Fr. Bonucci says:even one that came directly from christ
Fr. Bonucci says:yes (in response to my question)
Fr. Bonucci says:You are go to hell
Fr. Bonucci says:if ur notcatholic
Thomas says:I can't believe what I am hearing.
Fr. Bonucci says:jesus said u can only come to the father through me
Fr. Bonucci says:through the body n blodd of christ offered in a catholic mass
Thomas says:Point those exact words out to me please(about the catholic mass part)
After waiting two minutes with no response:
Thomas says:thats two things you can't prove.
Thomas says:hmm
Thomas says:right
Fr. Bonucci says:John 14:6 (NIV) "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Fr. Bonucci says:there you go
Fr. Bonucci says:how old are you may i inquire????
Thomas says:now, where does it say you have to take sacrament at catholic mass.
Thomas says:i am 19
Fr. Bonucci says:same
Fr. Bonucci says:here i left school at 15
Fr. Bonucci says:to serve christ
Fr. Bonucci says:im now an ordained priest :eek:
Fr. Bonucci says:i know god is with me
Thomas says:I am going to be a good will missionary to muslims in the middle east in two years
Fr. Bonucci says:ifantastci (fantastic, i think?)
Fr. Bonucci says:i have been there
Fr. Bonucci says:done it
Fr. Bonucci says:been to afghanistan
Fr. Bonucci says:seen how islam destroys
Fr. Bonucci says:young womens lives. I risked my life
Fr. Bonucci says:serving the small numbe rof catholics there
Fr. Bonucci says:Baptism, and confession
Fr. Bonucci says: i couldnt offer mass
Fr. Bonucci says:i wasnt ordained
Fr. Bonucci says:so i served
Fr. Bonucci says:i have seen ppl with stigmata
Fr. Bonucci says:the wounds of christ
Fr. Bonucci says:and what ever u say about the church
Thomas says:See you go to see horrors of things. I am going to make things new and better. Going in love far outweighs going in fear, and "risking my life"
Fr. Bonucci says:its is always risking its lives in countires
Fr. Bonucci says:wehre u normal misisonaries
Fr. Bonucci says:wouldnt go


This guy just sickens me. First he says that The Roman Catholic Church will destroy america, or something, and then tells me I am going to hell, and I'll never serve and such... ARGHHH!!! Are all catholics this bad?

Sounds like Jack Chick's version of the Catholic church to me...

-

I think you may have been had... You sure this guy is a real priest? Sounds like a troll taking you for a ride.

you realize hes a liar dont you?

no one is a catholic priest at 19.

He's a troll, and a poorly thought out one at that.

It is impossible for someone to be a priest at age 19. They have to study at a seminary for years in order to be ordained, so unless this kid was capable of doing that at age 10 or so and possessed a miraculous knowledge of theology, I'd say he's full of shit. He might be a leader of a youth group or something like that, but that's not a priest by any stretch. They have no theological training or any kind of ordination as priests, and are usually little more than slightly religious teenagers who have a decent knowledge of the Bible.

Impersonating a priest is blasphemous to boot...

Below you is a transcript of a convo I had with a priest today on MSN. The only editing done is to correct spelling and grammar for understanding.

Oh yeah. I actually met him off an Islam site that Soviestan and myself are on. I'm there trying to build bridges, but this man is cleary wanting to burn the bridges and anyone not catholic.


-note- this is only about half of the convo, because I didn't get a chance to
copy the first part.



This guy just sickens me. First he says that The Roman Catholic Church will destroy america, or something, and then tells me I am going to hell, and I'll never serve and such... ARGHHH!!! Are all catholics this bad?

Yeah. Especially (shudders) Ned Flanders.

Nah, I just don't like religion in general. So yes, anyone who believes this guy is that bad, but there are good Catholics, like John Kennedy.

I think you may have been had... You sure this guy is a real priest? Sounds like a troll taking you for a ride.

I would sure hope he was just a troll, because if someone was really like that....-shudders- I just can't imagine it.

He sounds more like a troll than a priest, IMHO.

Besides, it's nearly impossible, even totally impossible, that a priest would be 19 years old barring some kind of miracle. They have to study at a seminary for years in order to be ordained, so unless this kid was capable of doing that at age 12 or 13, I'd say he's full of shit.

Impersonating a priest seems rather blasphemous to boot.

you realize hes a liar dont you?

no one is a catholic priest at 19.



Orly? Well, next time he gets on, I'll see how he responds to that.

yes

although it IS catholic doctrine that most protestants dont have correct enough belief to get into heaven.

i dont remember what the problems are but i know they are there.

yes

Thats what I thought :p

Pretty clearly isn't a real Catholic priest.
Also, it's painfully obvious if you've been outside in the last couple of years at all that not all Catholics are like that at all!

yes

No, Catholics are often the most liberal of the Christian denominations. Of course, there are nuts out there but by and large they are liberal compared to other Christians.

No, Catholics are often the most liberal of the Christian denominations. Of course, there are nuts out there but by and large they are liberal compared to other Christians.

Sure, "no birth control at all" is pretty dang liberal.

No, Catholics are often the most liberal of the Christian denominations. Of course, there are nuts out there but by and large they are liberal compared to other Christians.

I'm not too sure the pope is liberal...

Sure, "no birth control at all" is pretty dang liberal.

Pretty much all Christian denominations share that line. At least Catholics support things like helping the poor and promoting peaceful resolution of world conflicts...that's to be contrasted with the creepy theme-park megachurches with their combination of materialism and nationalism.

Looks like some people are still in the sixteenth century...

Pretty clearly isn't a real Catholic priest.
Also, it's painfully obvious if you've been outside in the last couple of years at all that not all Catholics are like that at all!

Im not exactly a person that hangs out with catholics all too much. So I honestly didn't know.

Yeah. Especially (shudders) Ned Flanders.

Ned Flanders was a protestant :D

Pretty much all Christian denominations share that line. At least Catholics support things like helping the poor and promoting peaceful resolution of world conflicts...that's to be contrasted with the creepy theme-park megachurches with their combination of materialism and nationalism.

The Catholics are rather more hard-line about it, but I will give them points for being on the side of the poor in under-developed countries. And yeah, theme-park churches and preachers in $2,000 suits do make my skin crawl.

No, Catholics are often the most liberal of the Christian denominations. Of course, there are nuts out there but by and large they are liberal compared to other Christians.

when you say "liberal" what exactly do you mean? Because the Catholic church I know about does the whole "this is the way it is because we said so" thing.

Below you is a transcript of a convo I had with a priest today on MSN. The only editing done is to correct spelling and grammar for understanding.

Oh yeah. I actually met him off an Islam site that Soviestan and myself are on. I'm there trying to build bridges, but this man is cleary wanting to burn the bridges and anyone not catholic.


-note- this is only about half of the convo, because I didn't get a chance to
copy the first part.



This guy just sickens me. First he says that The Roman Catholic Church will destroy america, or something, and then tells me I am going to hell, and I'll never serve and such... ARGHHH!!! Are all catholics this bad?

You need to get this guy to post on NSG. He could be the next Jesussaves!

You need to get this guy to post on NSG. He could be the next Jesussaves!

:D

Sure, "no birth control at all" is pretty dang liberal.

Well, no, but "no death penalty at all" and "evolution does not contradict the Bible, so STFU with your silly Young-Earth nonsense" kind of are, comparatively speaking. :)

Are all catholics this bad?

No one at my church is like that...

Well, no, but "no death penalty at all" and "evolution does not contradict the Bible, so STFU with your silly Young-Earth nonsense" kind of are, comparatively speaking. :)

I hadn't thought of those. And the Cardinals do get to wear those cool red outfits,and the Mass in Latin is pretty impressive ... okay, you can keep Catholicism. :)

[insert anything he's ever said]
OMG are all Protestants this nuts?!!

Below you is a transcript of a convo I had with a priest today on MSN. The only editing done is to correct spelling and grammar for understanding.

Oh yeah. I actually met him off an Islam site that Soviestan and myself are on. I'm there trying to build bridges, but this man is cleary wanting to burn the bridges and anyone not catholic.


-note- this is only about half of the convo, because I didn't get a chance to
copy the first part.



This guy just sickens me. First he says that The Roman Catholic Church will destroy america, or something, and then tells me I am going to hell, and I'll never serve and such... ARGHHH!!! Are all catholics this bad?

To answer your question: no, not all catholics are this bad, which I can say not because I am one myself but because I know several.

That said...that "priest" was a fool.

I hadn't thought of those. And the Cardinals do get to wear those cool red outfits,and the Mass in Latin is pretty impressive ... okay, you can keep Catholicism. :)

*grin* I don't really want it, myself, save to give me enjoyable singing venues. Catholic churches are much prettier than Protestant ones, and usually have better acoustics, too! :)

in my atheist opinion, yes, all catholics are this bad. As are all christians, hindues, muslims, and basically anyone who believes in supernatural power. That would be because they believe at their root, in a completely crazy assed proposition...:D

buit then in their eyes I am a nut for NOT believeing :D

*grin* I don't really want it, myself, save to give me enjoyable singing venues. Catholic churches are much prettier than Protestant ones, and usually have better acoustics, too! :)

Very true. Mozart was a Catholic, so there's some good come out of it.

No, Catholics are often the most liberal of the Christian denominations. Of course, there are nuts out there but by and large they are liberal compared to other Christians.
I wouldn't call the Catholic Church liberal. Their relative liberalism really depends on where you live. In America, where (some) Protestants are famously ultra-conservative, they simply make the Church look liberal, even though it is not really so. In other countries, like Spain or The Republic of Ireland, Catholics have a more conservative reputation, and Protestants a more liberal one.

Don't forget also that the quintessential ultra-liberal Christian sect, the Quakers, are Protestants.

Pretty much all Christian denominations share that line.
I don't think so. Most Protestant groups accept contraception.

At least Catholics support things like helping the poor and promoting peaceful resolution of world conflicts
To be fair, so do most Protestants. For obvious reasons though, it is more difficult for them to speak with one homogenous voice on important issues.

..that's to be contrasted with the creepy theme-park megachurches with their combination of materialism and nationalism.
That doesn't represent most Protestants, as it's mainly an American Southern phenomenon.

Very true. Mozart was a Catholic, so there's some good come out of it.

Absolutely. I remember Douglas Adams was once quoted as saying something to the effect that even a devout atheist like himself had to be grateful to religion for prompting Bach to write his Mass in B Minor. It's hard to argue with that. :)

I wouldn't call the Catholic Church liberal. Their relative liberalism really depends on where you live. In America, where (some) Protestants are famously ultra-conservative, they simply make the Church look liberal, even though it is not really so. In other countries, like Spain or The Republic of Ireland, Catholics have a more conservative reputation, and Protestants a more liberal one.

I would actually call the Catholic church liberal, even in relation to some of the more liberal Protestants in Europe. Not in the sense of an overall politically liberal approach (though it is true that many Catholics are more politically liberal than the Church heirarchy or many fundamentalist Protestant sects), but in the sense of a more liberal approach to theology and embracing cultural differences. The latter is probably due to Catholicism being a global religion and the open-ness of John XXIII and John Paul II.

Frankly, I would be disappointed if the Church didn't have a balance of liberal and conservative views, anyway.

Don't forget also that the quintessential ultra-liberal Christian sect, the Quakers, are Protestants.

I don't think so. Most Protestant groups accept contraception.

To be fair, so do most Protestants. For obvious reasons though, it is more difficult for them to speak with one homogenous voice on important issues.

That doesn't represent most Protestants, as it's mainly an American Southern phenomenon.

Agreed on these points.

Im not exactly a person that hangs out with catholics all too much. So I honestly didn't know.

I was raised as a Catholic. Could you even imagine me saying anything along those lines?

Sounds like Jack Chick's version of the Catholic church to me...

Jack Chick hates catholics. So no, not really.

Also, there should be a poll.

Ned Flanders was a protestant :D

Heh. I just don't like any Christian denomination.

Damn, it would suck if I were catholic. I must commit about 4 of the 7 deadly sins a day. Mostly lust and pride.

The Catholic church is polluted in the sins of idolotry concerning the pope, and its quaint little hierarchy...Of course they believe the most important belief of the Chrisitian faith, so I am and have always been on firm, Catholic/Protestant cooperation, too allign and unify as christians.

Catholics, with their constant standing and sitting, what the hell do you think? They're going crazy because they don't know what the fuck they want to do.

The Catholic church is polluted in the sins of idolotry concerning the pope, and its quaint little hierarchy...Of course they believe the most important belief of the Chrisitian faith, so I am and have always been on firm, Catholic/Protestant cooperation, too allign and unify as christians.

You might as well be asking Zionists and Palestinians to have gay sex with each other.

idunno.
19 and a preist? Impossible. Maybe a seminarian, or student at a Catholic school, but not a preist! If he was, then that would have been big news in the Catholic Church!

You might as well be asking Zionists and Palestinians to have gay sex with each other.

I honestly think they're is less to overcome....Centuries of war are conspicuously absent from the tensions, the worst really is poor Martin Luthers imprisonment. That and John Clavin's exile from Geneva.

I honestly think they're is less to overcome....Centuries of war are conspicuously absent from the tensions, the worst really is poor Martin Luthers imprisonment. That and John Clavin's exile from Geneva.

Yeah, but it's rather unlikely, as both religions are against gay sex.

ARGHHH!!! Are all catholics this bad?

Well, if everything or even part of it is out of context...it is rather diffucult to follow the way it as been edited...but then again...if you don't...Oh, just forget it...:rolleyes:

I honestly think they're is less to overcome....Centuries of war are conspicuously absent from the tensions, the worst really is poor Martin Luthers imprisonment. That and John Clavin's exile from Geneva.Uh, there was quite a bit of warfair between Catholic and Protestant groups over the years, that said the Catholic Church has been involved in ecumenical as well as interfaith dialogues since Vatican II so it is already happening to the extent it is posibly taking into consideration teh fundemental differences between the groups.

I honestly think they're is less to overcome....Centuries of war are conspicuously absent from the tensions, the worst really is poor Martin Luthers imprisonment. That and John Clavin's exile from Geneva.

wasnt martin luther re-communicated not too too long ago?

Well, not really.


Many of the priests have nuts purely for decorative purposes.

Yeah, but it's rather unlikely, as both religions are against gay sex.

-.-

wasnt martin luther re-communicated not too too long ago?

-.-

Uh, there was quite a bit of warfair between Catholic and Protestant groups over the years, that said the Catholic Church has been involved in ecumenical as well as interfaith dialogues since Vatican II so it is already happening to the extent it is posibly taking into consideration teh fundemental differences between the groups.

In my opinion these "fundamental" differences are fairly superficial. Cannonization is fairly superficial, but there is the whole pope thing. And of course, thiers the whole North Ireland cecession thing...

In my opinion these "fundamental" differences are fairly superficial. Cannonization is fairly superficial, but there is the whole pope thing. And of course, thiers the whole North Ireland cecession thing...

I think the "whole pope thing" is a pretty big difference, that neither are going to be particularly willing to compromise on.

I think the "whole pope thing" is a pretty big difference, that neither are going to be particularly willing to compromise on.

*Sigh* Your right. If only they understood the idoicy of spiritual hierarchy, as in one man being closer too god then all else.

*Sigh* Your right. If only they understood the idoicy of spiritual hierarchy, as in one man being closer too god then all else.

What??? Where's the evidence that the Catholic view is that the Pope is closer spiritually to God than anything else?

The question with all people, especially religious people, is not "are they crazy" just "when are they crazy"

This guy is a liar. First off, I doubt any seminary, or any college for that matter, would accept a 15 year old with no High School diploma or GED.

This guy is offensive to everyone, Catholics, like myself, for impersonating a priest, Muslims for posting his crap on their forums, and everyone else by claiming they can not get to heaven, which the church does not say.

Either that, or he is one of the ultra traditionalists who think that the Pope is an american living in Washington State.

I think the "whole pope thing" is a pretty big difference, that neither are going to be particularly willing to compromise on.

i dont think that that can be the fundamental stumbling block. after all the orthodox churches dont accept the authority of the pope and the church considers them to be relgiously acceptable.

i dont think that that can be the fundamental stumbling block. after all the orthodox churches dont accept the authority of the pope and the church considers them to be relgiously acceptable.

They feel Protestants are religously acceptable for the most part as well, thats why they are participating in the ecuminical process, just wrong on certain issues, like the pope.

What??? Where's the evidence that the Catholic view is that the Pope is closer spiritually to God than anything else?

I just infered from the flowing white robes, election, pomp concerning his prescence, and being head of the church. Oh! And the pope mobile!

And of course the terminology when referring too him:

Bishop of Rome
Vicar of Christ
Successor of the Prince of the Apostles
Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church
Primate of Italy
Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province
Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City
Servant of the Servants of God

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope)

(victar of christ, and the fact that he is succesor too Saint Peter, or the apostle who was closest too christ.)

As someone who was a trainee catholic priest I can guarantee that although, yes the church has it's fair share of idiots,perverts and cruel,vindictive bastards ; we aint all that bad dudes...Eric Cartman is a catholic, Hitler was a catholic , um, well..let's change the subject...

We aint bible bashers like the evangelical religious right neo-cons justifying anything we want to simply because there's a bible verse which can be twisted into something which says its ok to be a fascist murdering xenophobe.

We support Life - Which means we're against war, abortion,euthanasia and capital punishment... this support for life also includes the promotion of universal health care free at the point of service, the promotion of environmental issues, the banning of torture , and the demand for the feeding of the world's poor, the supply of clean water for all, and a massive health plan to eradicate easily treatable but life-threatening diseases in the developing world.

also contrary to popular belief we are not homophobic - unlike the evangelical fascists we do not Believe that the cold is God's way of telling us to burn more homosexuals....

We may be a bit weird in having a crazy idea that sex has something to do with love and needs the respect to life because it was through sex that we were born.
So we're a bit puritanical about what we can do with our bits...

but we're commanded to love - love everyone - even our enemies
we also have a tendency to care about everything - why do you think the irish are always fighting? [/I]

I just infered from the flowing white robes, election, pomp concerning his prescence, and being head of the church. Oh! And the pope mobile!

And of course the terminology when referring too him:

Bishop of Rome
Vicar of Christ
Successor of the Prince of the Apostles
Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church
Primate of Italy
Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province
Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City
Servant of the Servants of God

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope)

(victar of christ)

You inferred from material things, symbols of earthly political power and prestige, that the Catholic view is that the Pope is spiritually the closest person to God? Even the "Vicar of Christ" title, the only one that lends itself to any inference of that nature, is a heirarchical title referring to his role within the church.

You know, I don't particularly like the way the Pope is seen as a big social and political figurehead, or the trappings that go with the Papacy, or the way the heirarchical structure of the church lends itself to the creation of a false sense of authority and pride, but I also don't think that those problems justify you in misrepresenting the Church's views.

There are plenty of legitimate problems in the Church that need to be addressed, so why waste your time making up new ones?

As someone who was a trainee catholic priest I can guarantee that although, yes the church has it's fair share of idiots,perverts and cruel,vindictive bastards ; we aint all that bad dudes...Eric Cartman is a catholic, Hitler was a catholic , um, well..let's change the subject...

We aint bible bashers like the evangelical religious right neo-cons justifying anything we want to simply because there's a bible verse which can be twisted into something which says its ok to be a fascist murdering xenophobe.

We support Life - Which means we're against war, abortion,euthanasia and capital punishment... this support for life also includes the promotion of universal health care free at the point of service, the promotion of environmental issues, the banning of torture , and the demand for the feeding of the world's poor, the supply of clean water for all, and a massive health plan to eradicate easily treatable but life-threatening diseases in the developing world.

also contrary to popular belief we are not homophobic - unlike the evangelical fascists we do not Believe that the cold is God's way of telling us to burn more homosexuals....

We may be a bit weird in having a crazy idea that sex has something to do with love and needs the respect to life because it was through sex that we were born.
So we're a bit puritanical about what we can do with our bits...

but we're commanded to love - love everyone - even our enemies
we also have a tendency to care about everything - why do you think the irish are always fighting? [/I]

When so many do believe at least one of the things you claim they do not it makes it hard ... I know not all believe all of them or any of them but I bet you a majority do believe at least one of the things

Weather it be pro war or believe their religion is anti homosexual or what not.

You inferred from material things, symbols of earthly political power and prestige, that the Catholic view is that the Pope is spiritually the closest person to God? Even the "Vicar of Christ" title, the only one that lends itself to any inference of that nature, is a heirarchical title referring to his role within the church.

You know, I don't particularly like the way the Pope is seen as a big social and political figurehead, or the trappings that go with the Papacy, or the way the heirarchical structure of the church lends itself to the creation of a false sense of authority and pride, but I also don't think that those problems justify you in misrepresenting the Church's views.

There are plenty of legitimate problems in the Church that need to be addressed, so why waste your time making up new ones?


The apostle peter was closest too Jesus Christ...The pope is ordained as Peters successor, therefore being closer too Christ. There is spiritual meaning in the titles, as they so blatantly imply. When people start this "the catholic church is not a spiritual hierarchy" bullshit, I tend too fight back. He is the church mandated physical and spiritual figurehead and leader. The bowing at his feet, is simply ridiculous.

Below you is a transcript of a convo I had with a priest today on MSN. The only editing done is to correct spelling and grammar for understanding.

Oh yeah. I actually met him off an Islam site that Soviestan and myself are on. I'm there trying to build bridges, but this man is cleary wanting to burn the bridges and anyone not catholic.


-note- this is only about half of the convo, because I didn't get a chance to
copy the first part.



This guy just sickens me. First he says that The Roman Catholic Church will destroy america, or something, and then tells me I am going to hell, and I'll never serve and such... ARGHHH!!! Are all catholics this bad?


I am not Catholic, but official Catholic doctrine states that Catholicism, and even Christianity in general, are not the only ways to Heaven.

1. You bore me
2. You fail at life
3. Catholics can lie to you because they are better than you.
*Thumbs nose*

I just infered from the flowing white robes, election, pomp concerning his prescence, and being head of the church. Oh! And the pope mobile!

And of course the terminology when referring too him:

Primate of Italy


I thought we were all primates...

Does this also make him the best of all Italian prosimians and anthropoids?

Fr. Bonucci says:You are go to hell
Fr. Bonucci says:if ur notcatholic

OMFG
someone sig this!

I thought we were all primates...

Does this also make him the best of all Italian prosimians and anthropoids?

Nice snip job mate. ;)

No.

I am not Catholic, but official Catholic doctrine states that Catholicism, and even Christianity in general, are not the only ways to Heaven.

Accept Jesus christ as your savior, and god as the father and creator of all things. Thats the ticket.

Accept Jesus christ as your savior, and god as the father and creator of all things. Thats the ticket.

Yeah so easy to do :rolleyes:

These are not actions we are talking about ... could you honestly just one day decide to follow a pagan god. Honestly and truthfully with your whole heart just cause someone said that it was the ticket to some sort of eternal happiness or some such thing?

If you are honest with yourself I feel your answer will be to the negitive

Its fine that is what you believe but making it sound like a trifle is dishonesty to either yourself or others

when you say "liberal" what exactly do you mean? Because the Catholic church I know about does the whole "this is the way it is because we said so" thing.

American Catholics tend to be very liberal. Both politically and socially, and most (in my experience) don't think that all non-Catholics are going to hell.. Outside the U.S., they are rather conservative. There are exceptions both ways, though. Opus Dei, for example, are arch-conservative; both in this country and abroad.

I am an American Catholic and am not crazy. The church believes in certain doctrines that I don't support.

Jack Chick hates catholics. So no, not really.

Also, there should be a poll.

I meant that the evil world-domination mentality is how Chick portrays catholics.

ZOMG?! Someone actually thought that guy would make a good good will missionary? They must be getting desparate.

Nah we're not all nuts, some of us are quite sane. *cricks*

No, Catholic priests are usually very tolerant (in comparison with a lot of protestant churches).

Accept Jesus christ as your savior, and god as the father and creator of all things. Thats the ticket.

Catholic dogma says that person who never heard of christ but lived a good life can go to heaven. Also it says that every kind of christian CAN go to heaven, just its by far easiest for Catholics (I mean figures, you don't want people converting to other denominations)
Bapthist say that you are either bapthist (some go as far as saying exactly their kind of bapthist) or you go to hell.

Catholic dogma says that person who never heard of christ but lived a good life can go to heaven. Also it says that every kind of christian CAN go to heaven, just its by far easiest for Catholics (I mean figures, you don't want people converting to other denominations)
Bapthist say that you are either bapthist (some go as far as saying exactly their kind of bapthist) or you go to hell.

And this is one of the points where Protestantism parts with Catholicism (whew, that's a mouthful!). Jesus Himself said "There is no way to the Father except through me".

"He died for your sins" is the ultimate guilt phrase.

The apostle peter was closest too Jesus Christ...The pope is ordained as Peters successor, therefore being closer too Christ. There is spiritual meaning in the titles, as they so blatantly imply. When people start this "the catholic church is not a spiritual hierarchy" bullshit, I tend too fight back. He is the church mandated physical and spiritual figurehead and leader. The bowing at his feet, is simply ridiculous.

Your arguments consist of misrepresenting Catholicism and making invalid inferences as if it were a sport, then topping it off with righteous indignation at the actual problem while largely ignoring that it's the actual problem. Sorry, I'm just not impressed.

Again, I'll suggest that you spend your time addressing the very real problems within the Church, and not waste it manufacturing new ones.

American Catholics tend to be very liberal. Both politically and socially, and most (in my experience) don't think that all non-Catholics are going to hell.. Outside the U.S., they are rather conservative. There are exceptions both ways, though. Opus Dei, for example, are arch-conservative; both in this country and abroad.

Correction: North American catholics tend to be liberals. Or have you just forgotten about little old Canada?

The apostle peter was closest too Jesus Christ...The pope is ordained as Peters successor, therefore being closer too Christ. There is spiritual meaning in the titles, as they so blatantly imply. When people start this "the catholic church is not a spiritual hierarchy" bullshit, I tend too fight back. He is the church mandated physical and spiritual figurehead and leader. The bowing at his feet, is simply ridiculous.

I guess that's why Peter was a married priest...

What??? Where's the evidence that the Catholic view is that the Pope is closer spiritually to God than anything else?

To Catholics, the pope is considered perfect in matters of religious dogma. So in a way, they see him as closer spiritually I guess.

Your arguments consist of misrepresenting Catholicism and making invalid inferences as if it were a sport, then topping it off with righteous indignation at the actual problem while largely ignoring that it's the actual problem. Sorry, I'm just not impressed.

Again, I'll suggest that you spend your time addressing the very real problems within the Church, and not waste it manufacturing new ones.

Of course they're are the fine folks who engineered the wiki article, who strangly agree with me. ;)

I guess that's why Peter was a married priest...

Im protestant, I dont see a problem with that. Doesnt change the fact that the pope is ordained in Peter's divinity.

We're not even sure he's really a priest.

Any large group of people would inevitably have its bad apples. There are Catholics who are bad and there are those who are good. There are atheists who are intolerant and there are those who are very nice. The action of one member doesn't necessarily apply to everybody in the group. The problem is that we tend to generalize.

North American Catholics tend to be rather liberal, Catholics in countries like mine (Catholic majority ~ 70%) tend to be conservative in your perspective. What is a conservative to an ordinary American may be a liberal in other countries.

And also, religion is not that rock-solid. It evolves, it changes. It is also not an organization where everybody thinks the same way. As one bishop said, "That is why we invite you to ask questions." (He was pertaining to contraception.) Again, many of the beliefs are not absolute (example, the Church, in certain cases, can allow usage of contraception, dissolution of amrriage, disconnection of life support, and even abortion!) and people are allowed to elaborate their opinions. I disagree with the Church's stance on certain issues. But then, I won't leave just because I disagree; any large organization will always have differences in opinion.

Catholic dogma says that person who never heard of christ but lived a good life can go to heaven. Also it says that every kind of christian CAN go to heaven, just its by far easiest for Catholics (I mean figures, you don't want people converting to other denominations)
Bapthist say that you are either bapthist (some go as far as saying exactly their kind of bapthist) or you go to hell.

Source mate, this is news too me. I seriously doubt Catholic doctrine dictates that you dont need too accept Christ too be awarded with eternal bliss.

Source mate, this is news too me. I seriously doubt Catholic doctrine dictates that you dont need too accept Christ too be awarded with eternal bliss.

IT's true. IT's just harder. You gotta behave in a good manner without knowing what good is and what isn't. We'll show you how to behave to go in. Trust us, we know the way. Don't listen to those, they view some things as good behaviour when, in fact, it's not. That's why it's easier for us. Come join us.

One of us.
One of us.
One of us.

But seriously, some priest do say that you can get in if you behave properly. But the problem isknowing what is good and bad behaviour. You cannot plead cultural differences when the Judgment comes in and that's a big problem.

To Catholics, the pope is considered perfect in matters of religious dogma. So in a way, they see him as closer spiritually I guess.

No, the Catholic stance is that the Pope can make infallible statements under very specific and unusual conditions. He's not considered perfect in matters of religious dogma, not by a long shot.

Of course they're are the fine folks who engineered the wiki article, who strangly agree with me. ;)

Nope. I've read the article. Twice. It talks about the Pope having authority or jurisdiction over the Catholic church and, near the end, various political institutions.

I didn't find any mention of the spiritual superiority that you claimed.

Source mate, this is news too me. I seriously doubt Catholic doctrine dictates that you dont need too accept Christ too be awarded with eternal bliss.

only in case you never heard of him. if you are born in small hut in middle of africa, and live an perfectly good life. You never heard of jesus, closest bible was miles from you, and you never even heard of missionaries, then you go to heaven.
But if you heard of him, and rejected him, then its bye bye to you.

And this is one of the points where Protestantism parts with Catholicism (whew, that's a mouthful!). Jesus Himself said "There is no way to the Father except through me".

which if followed literaly means Moses, Abraham and Noah are all in hell. They were born before Jesus.

which if followed literaly means Moses, Abraham and Noah are all in hell. They were born before Jesus.

jesus descended into hell and redeemed the righteous who were there.

moses, abraham and noah WERE in hell (or its outskirts perhaps) and now they arent.

what that means about the parable of lazarus and the rich man i have no idea.

To Catholics, the pope is considered perfect in matters of religious dogma. So in a way, they see him as closer spiritually I guess.
Depends on certain conditions, not only that but when said conditions are met that infallibility applies to Bishops as well, according to Vatican II, which is fitting since Vatican I introduced papal infalibility.

jesus descended into hell and redeemed the righteous who were there.

moses, abraham and noah WERE in hell (or its outskirts perhaps) and now they arent.

what that means about the parable of lazarus and the rich man i have no idea.

Excuse me, but I'd rather not believe in a God who sends everyone to hell without exception, thank you.
Granted, apparently he realised he messed up later, but still...

Excuse me, but I'd rather not believe in a God who sends everyone to hell without exception, thank you.
Granted, apparently he realised he messed up later, but still...

i dont care what you believe in. feel free to believe in whatever makes you sleep better at night.

in my atheist opinion, yes, all catholics are this bad. As are all christians, hindues, muslims, and basically anyone who believes in supernatural power. That would be because they believe at their root, in a completely crazy assed proposition...:D

Quite. All religions are about nonsense and indoctrination, as far as I can see. Even Buddhism, which is rightly regarded as a relatively moderate and reasonable faith, is rooted in Gautama Siddhartha's belief in reincarnation.

only in case you never heard of him. if you are born in small hut in middle of africa, and live an perfectly good life. You never heard of jesus, closest bible was miles from you, and you never even heard of missionaries, then you go to heaven.
But if you heard of him, and rejected him, then its bye bye to you.

Im not too sure of the rules pertaining too being oblivious too the lords existence, if this allows or denies a trip too heaven im not sure.

Nope. I've read the article. Twice. It talks about the Pope having authority or jurisdiction over the Catholic church and, near the end, various political institutions.

I didn't find any mention of the spiritual superiority that you claimed.

Erm- "Saint Peter" (AKA the Apostle Peter) was in fact divine and closer too Jesus himself, more so than most mortals. The Pope is worded has successor. Look up definition as his successor, you see that Peters former title, Divinity, and perhaps collection of Ancient sandals are now in the Popes possesion.

"In addition to his service in this spiritual role, the Pope is also Head of State of the independent sovereign State of the Vatican City, a city-state and nation entirely enclaved by the city of Rome. " (Notice the first sentence)

Also, this pertains too most Catholic Clergymen, but I generally see blessings, and bowing in the presence of a man, an insult too Holy authority.

Try too infer from his "holy titles"

-Bishop of Rome
-Vicar of Christ
-Successor of the Prince of the Apostles
-Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church
-Primate of Italy
-Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province
-Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City
-Servant of the Servants of God

Quote: "The title "Vicar of Christ" refers to the Pope's divine commission." (Divine commision...I take it this means nothing?)

"The Pope's ecclesiastical jurisdiction (the Holy See) is distinct from his secular jurisdiction (Vatican City)." (He has spiritual Jurisdiction, ALONG with seccular jurisdiction)

"whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ Himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole church", and that (s.5) "if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the Lord Himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole church; or that the Roman pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema."

(The church is refered too, but also a succesion too peters divinity, and holy authority.)

"he is the supreme judge of the faithful, and that in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment" 9he may judge fellow believers, as say...A judge would? A being of higher authority?)




Im also against cannonization, so...yea.

IT's true. IT's just harder. You gotta behave in a good manner without knowing what good is and what isn't. We'll show you how to behave to go in. Trust us, we know the way. Don't listen to those, they view some things as good behaviour when, in fact, it's not. That's why it's easier for us. Come join us.

One of us.
One of us.
One of us.

But seriously, some priest do say that you can get in if you behave properly. But the problem isknowing what is good and bad behaviour. You cannot plead cultural differences when the Judgment comes in and that's a big problem.

Yes that goes without saying. I take it you have a compound somewhere in Texas yes? *Shaves head* May I join?

Give me a source that explicitly states you may get into heaven without accepting christ as your savior, and I will soil my trousers.

Nope. I've read the article. Twice. It talks about the Pope having authority or jurisdiction over the Catholic church and, near the end, various political institutions.

I didn't find any mention of the spiritual superiority that you claimed.

The whole point (at least from the perspective of a Reformed Christian) is that Christ alone is Head of the Church and that it is blasphemy to claim that title to any man. To quote the Westminster Confession of Faith (in its original form):

Chapter XXV Section 6
There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ; nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be the head thereof; but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himslef against teh Christ, and all that is called God.

I prefer the amendation adopted by the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, not because of content, but because of form.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the only head of the Church, and the claim of any man to be the vicar of Christ and the head of the Church, is unscriptural, without warrant in fact, and is a usurpation dishonoring to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes that goes without saying. I take it you have a compound somewhere in Texas yes? *Shaves head* May I join?

Give me a source that explicitly states you may get into heaven without accepting christ as your savior, and I will soil my trousers.

It's in the catechism, actually...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1745787/posts
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/church3.html
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

And ponder this from the Bible:
bullet Acceptance of non-Christians into Heaven: A common and often preached message in the Christian Scriptures is that trusting in Jesus is the only way to be saved, and that only those persons who hear the Gospel and accept it will attain Heaven. However Romans 2:14-16 delivers a different and contrasting message. Paul writes: "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." Paul is here discussing those individuals who have not heard of the Mosaic law. Their lives will be reviewed on Judgment Day; they may be saved and attain heaven if they performed sufficient good works while alive on Earth. http://www.religioustolerance.org/tol_bibl.htm

It's in the catechism, actually...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1745787/posts
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/church3.html
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

My respect for Roman Catholicism as a part of the Catholic Orthodox Church is rapidly decreasing.

My respect for Roman Catholicism as a part of the Catholic Orthodox Church is rapidly decreasing.

Why?

It's in the catechism, actually...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1745787/posts
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/church3.html
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

And ponder this from the Bible:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/tol_bibl.htm

shouldnt you have at least offered him a bit of paper while posting those links?



847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.[337]

This guy just sickens me. First he says that The Roman Catholic Church will destroy america, or something, and then tells me I am going to hell, and I'll never serve and such... ARGHHH!!! Are all catholics this bad?

Ok, first of all, not all catholics are Roman Catholics, and no, they aren't all that bad or nuts. :D

Why?

They are going directly against the Biblical teaching that we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2 pay close attention to verse 8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&version=47&context=chapter)). Without faith, there is no salvation, and they are directly contradicting that.

Ok, first of all, not all catholics are Roman Catholics, and no, they aren't all that bad or nuts. :D

I could barely make out what he was trying to say. Clarity obviously wasn't a priority of this guy. What I made out was certainly annoying but there are plenty of irritating and outright stupid people online, we can't bitch about them all. :p

I could barely make out what he was trying to say. Clarity obviously wasn't a priority of this guy. What I made out was certainly annoying but there are plenty of irritating and outright stupid people online, we can't bitch about them all. :p

Was that in reference to me? If so, you should know I am not a "guy".

Was that in reference to me? If so, you should know I am not a "guy".

I was talking about the "priest" that the OP was refering to.

No, I can tell you that they're not.

My dad was Catholic, and he was an unapologetic liberal until the day he died. My sister is similar to myself in political beliefs, and she is Catholic.

The local priest at one of my town's churches, in one of his sermons, apologized for the church's official position on homosexuality. He also emphasized the word "all" in the sentence "Take this, all of you, and drink from it, this is my blood" yada yada yada. Also a very left-wing person, and humble as well (though, being a recovered alcoholic tends to do that to some people).

They are going directly against the Biblical teaching that we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2 pay close attention to verse 8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&version=47&context=chapter)). Without faith, there is no salvation, and they are directly contradicting that.

Good job, you've successfully identified one of the major differences in belief between Catholics and Protestants! You know, one of the ones Luther talked about over and over and over again, and which was one of the primary differences in belief which led to the Protestant Reformation!

It's kind of sad that you needed an internet forum to teach you the very basic history of your own religion...

It's in the catechism, actually...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1745787/posts
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/church3.html
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

And ponder this from the Bible:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/tol_bibl.htm

1st Site: Know as "Free Republic" Forum, debating religion (We can trust "Alex Murphy" can't we?) ;)

2nd Site: Not cited...

3rd Site: As told by Mr. Charles Borromeo Parish, Mississipi, USA!

Bible excerpt: Pertains too the "Mosaic Law" Mate. I dont think my doctrine cites this...Did the protestant reformation keep the Mosaic law? I can't remmember...

Exact quote:

"Paul is here discussing those individuals who have not heard of the Mosaic law. Their lives will be reviewed on Judgment Day; they may be saved and attain heaven if they performed sufficient good works while alive on Earth."

Mhmm. Im sure this is a good argument against someone of the Jewish faith, yet I still bet they could refute it.

shouldnt you have at least offered him a bit of paper while posting those links?

Im refering too accepting christ. Your context dictates a person may not KNOW christ, but seek Gods salvation. And all the shodily cited "facts" managed too expel from my body was a jolly rancher...Man those things are easy too choke on...

3rd Site: As told by Mr. Charles Borromeo Parish, Mississipi, USA!

.

:confused:The third site was a direct link to the english version of the Catechism of the Roman Catholic church on the Vatican's own site, so who's this Charrles Borromeo character? :confused:

:confused:The third site was a direct link to the english version of the Catechism of the Roman Catholic church on the Vatican's own site, so who's this Charrles Borromeo character? :confused:


Uhm, bottom of the site?

Uhm, bottom of the site?

All right so a parish in Mississipi prepared it, it is still on the Vatican's own website so obviously the translation has been approved by the Church.

Good job, you've successfully identified one of the major differences in belief between Catholics and Protestants! You know, one of the ones Luther talked about over and over and over again, and which was one of the primary differences in belief which led to the Protestant Reformation!

It's kind of sad that you needed an internet forum to teach you the very basic history of your own religion...

Umm, yeah, no.

I've always known about the difference of works vs no works as a requirement for salvation. But this whole idea that one can be saved without faith as a stance by the Roman Catholics is new to me. I never heard that they held this as doctrine and I reject it outright.

Well, yeah - if you're a good person but you've never been a Christian, why should that keep you from eternal salvation or whatnot? I would like to think that God is far above being petty to the point where he doesn't let you into heaven because the crazy rituals you perform (or don't). If you're a good person, what does it matter?

Well, yeah - if you're a good person but you've never been a Christian, why should that keep you from eternal salvation or whatnot? I would like to think that God is far above being petty to the point where he doesn't let you into heaven because the crazy rituals you perform (or don't). If you're a good person, what does it matter?
Meh, some people are obsessed with the idea that you MUST belong to the right country club or else you'll never be part of the in-crowd. They then project these feelings onto their image of God, and create a God who would damn people for all eternity because they didn't mumble their prayers in the company of the right old guy in a funny hat.

No, all catholics aren't "nuts" You can't judge all catholics by the claims of an "obvious" fake priest.

My God is a Merciful God, a Loving and Forgiving God, an Accepting God... :)

Meh, some people are obsessed with the idea that you MUST belong to the right country club or else you'll never be part of the in-crowd. They then project these feelings onto their image of God, and create a God who would damn people for all eternity because they didn't mumble their prayers in the company of the right old guy in a funny hat.

Exactly that. Like I said earlier - nonsense and indoctrination.
"Join our religion - we have the monoploy on truth."
"Join our church - don't be misled by the poor misguided people in the church over the road."
"Live your life by our holy book - let me read you some carefully selected passages from it."

God will have to be pretty damn forgiving to let people like that into Heaven.

Well, quite a few of the priests are surely going to Hell and those who tried to cover up and protect these priests who are guilty of violating God's Children...

I AM A GOD WARRIOR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCh2FXzD6R4)!!! :D

No, all catholics aren't "nuts" You can't judge all catholics by the claims of an "obvious" fake priest.

I have heard worse things in person from priests in my RC church ... This priest may be fake but what he says is defiantly not the worst I have heard from someone in the clergy.

Well, quite a few of the priests are surely going to Hell and those who tried to cover up and protect these priests who are guilty of violating God's Children...

That may be ... Though Christianity makes this thing about repentance ... so it may not be guaronteed even by their standards.

I am a practising Catholic. I love my faith. I don't think this makes me insane or a bad person.

I am a practising Catholic. I love my faith. I don't think this makes me insane or a bad person.

I gave up Catholicism for Lent a few years ago and never picked it back up.

Yes that goes without saying. I take it you have a compound somewhere in Texas yes? *Shaves head* May I join?

Give me a source that explicitly states you may get into heaven without accepting christ as your savior, and I will soil my trousers.

taken from kat's links.

Originally Posted by from the middle one

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.[337]




Im refering too accepting christ. Your context dictates a person may not KNOW christ, but seek Gods salvation. And all the shodily cited "facts" managed too expel from my body was a jolly rancher...Man those things are easy too choke on...

im sorry but i dont see how my quote does not fit your challenge. i only quoted it because when i looked at the pages they were too dense to be sure that you had found the relevant part yourself.

it says right there that if someone leads a good life but has had no chance to know of jesus or the church, they will be judged on their own life merits and may indeed attain salvation.

seems to me that it covers your challenge perfectly.

I AM A GOD WARRIOR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCh2FXzD6R4)!!! :D

That's not funny, that's tragic. A human being, born with a brain just like the rest of us, who is so out of touch with reality that she thinks it's perfectly okay to carry on like that in front of her kids and millions of TV viewers.

Worse - people like her have the vote. Just stop and think about that for a moment. Even though she clearly belongs in a zoo, she is not merely allowed but actually encouraged to have a say in who runs the country.

Erm- "Saint Peter" (AKA the Apostle Peter) was in fact divine and closer too Jesus himself, more so than most mortals.

Well that would be your problem. If you think that Peter was Divine, it's no wonder you would see the Pope's authority as indicating spiritual superiority.

Fortunately, the Catholic Church does not recognize the divinity of Peter, and is not obliged to come to such a conclusion.

I probably should keep my mouth shut as im going through a particularly catholic hating moment at the moment (grrr, there as absolutely no normal reason to say no to sex before marriage, and no, im not going to marry him.), but most really religious people (doesnt particularly matter which religion) say stupid stuff like that all the time. I dont like religion.